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I can't help but think that all of these JavaScript/AJAX libraries keep reinventing the wheel over and over again. How many grid widgets written in JavaScript do we really need? How many toolkits for a progress bar or a div-based dialog box have to be developed? Is one of them really that compelling over the others. Consider:

http://dojotoolkit.org/ - DoJo Toolkit
http://www.activewidgets.com/ - ActiveWidgets
http://www.prototypejs.org/ - Prototype
http://script.aculo.us/ - Scriptaculous
http://jquery.com/ - jQuery
http://extjs.com/ - Ext JS
http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/ - YUI
http://code.google.com/webtoolkit/ - Google Web Toolkit (GWT)
http://www.sproutcore.com/ - SproutCore

Those are just the ones I have used personally. It's getting ridiculous. Personally, I like the approach GWT has, but of course that's only relevant to the java developers of the world. I'd love to see all of these "widgets" be compatible with one another.

You're right about not having native widgets exposed in the web browser. Sorry about that. When I wrote my earlier response, I didn't quite understand the point you were getting at.

Perhaps what we need is as simple as exposing these additional controls through HTML's <input> element or XForms.

I think very few people truly understood the potential of what the web could become...Sir Berners-Lee certainly didn't. One of the few who did might have been Microsoft. In an ironic way, Microsoft's sudden about-face in embracing the Internet and releasing Internet Explorer may have been the smartest decision they ever made, because if they had missed the chance, they would be irrelevant today, and everybody would be running their apps on Netscape servers.

By the way, I don't mean to negate your good points, but TrimPath and Active Widgets both have decent data grid widgets, if you're looking at using them for a particular project.

"Library", are you kidding me?

Indeed. Most of the posters obviously didn't do much investigation, or are not that familiar with AJAX development. This is the same stuff you've been able to get elsewhere for a LONG time. The Blueshoes and ActiveWidget collections are a lot more useful, albeit not entirely free.

To be honest, I'm consistently frustrated by the status of OSS code with regard to the DHTML components necessary to support open source RIA technology.

It's because the market is still young. For right now there's money to be made in DHTML controls. As long as that's true, programmers aren't going to be giving stuff away. (Hell, I've got my stash of super-secret components, and I'm willing to bet that you do too.) Once components become more commonplace, OSS libraries will begin appearing.

Sure, not a problem. For more cool javascript stuff checkout:

Some more demos from dojo (the editor one is neat, after you select your toolbars, it lets you edit the text of the page on the fly.

Another site, OpenRico, has a neat javascript library. The link takes you to their live grid which updates in realtime through AJAX, but above the grid you'll see their other demos that you can click to view.

Here is another site, ActiveWidgets, their 1.0 version is just a very customizable grid that can be made to look like anything from an excel spreadsheet to a listing of files in a directory (look at the examples linked to from their front page). If you scroll down on this page you'll see links to examples for their 2.0 beta. Check out all 3, you can make your website essentially appear like a native WinXP dialogue (I think that is WinXP, I run Fedora though).

Keep in mind all of this is in javascript/css/html, its also all opensource (you can search for other projects like these, a notable site is scriptaculous). Its really neat to see javascript finally being used to its full potential, web apps should get really interesting in the next few years.

Regards,
Steve

Sure, not a problem. For more cool javascript stuff checkout:

Some more demos from dojo (the editor one is neat, after you select your toolbars, it lets you edit the text of the page on the fly.

Another site, OpenRico, has a neat javascript library. The link takes you to their live grid which updates in realtime through AJAX, but above the grid you'll see their other demos that you can click to view.

Here is another site, ActiveWidgets, their 1.0 version is just a very customizable grid that can be made to look like anything from an excel spreadsheet to a listing of files in a directory (look at the examples linked to from their front page). If you scroll down on this page you'll see links to examples for their 2.0 beta. Check out all 3, you can make your website essentially appear like a native WinXP dialogue (I think that is WinXP, I run Fedora though).

Keep in mind all of this is in javascript/css/html, its also all opensource (you can search for other projects like these, a notable site is scriptaculous). Its really neat to see javascript finally being used to its full potential, web apps should get really interesting in the next few years.

Regards,
Steve

AJAX is hyped a bit, but it really does have some neat capabilities. Actually I've noticed better use of javascript in general recently. Its a very powerful language and only now is its true potential being realized. For some cool examples check out:

This which is a live grid of data updated through AJAX.

This which is just a cool javascript toolbar that also uses SVG icons if your browser is capable (Most people who see this think its flash at first).

This or any of the examples linked to on page.

Web Applications really are starting to take on a whole new generation of capablities and software. I personally think that is pretty neat, its like the perfect merger of fat and thin clients.
Regards,
Steve

AJAX is hyped a bit, but it really does have some neat capabilities. Actually I've noticed better use of javascript in general recently. Its a very powerful language and only now is its true potential being realized. For some cool examples check out:

This which is a live grid of data updated through AJAX.

This which is just a cool javascript toolbar that also uses SVG icons if your browser is capable (Most people who see this think its flash at first).

This or any of the examples linked to on page.

Web Applications really are starting to take on a whole new generation of capablities and software. I personally think that is pretty neat, its like the perfect merger of fat and thin clients.
Regards,
Steve

I mean, i guess that's ok if you don't really want to do anything.

I'm sorry, do you define Word Processing and Spreadsheets as "anything"?

You've picked a very specialized type of program to complain about. Even then, however, solutions do exist. SVG is perfect for vector drawing, and Applets can be used to provide the per-pixel drawing necessary for raster image editing. The point is that *most* of what people do with their computers can be done with a web platform today. And if a need arises for something more sophisticated, I'm sure you'll be seeing standards to address the problem.

I don't have time to walk you through every point here, but let me quickly point out some problems. You aren't trolling me, are you? Try looking at these two pathways from the point of *insert-commercial-developer-name-here*, and think about it, I think what I'm saying will make more sense.

The point petrus4 is getting at is that there seems to be this erroneous perception that if a company forks BSD'ed code, and closes the source, the BSD'ed branch of the fork disappears. (It doesn't.) The original author still has full rights to the BSD'ed "parent code" that's sitting on his hard disk. He can sell it, modify it, give it away, etc. That someone else has a copy that's closed source doesn't restrict what happpens to the version that's BSD'ed
I don't see how this is relevant to choosing BSD vs. GPL. If he releases it into the public domain, he can still sell it, modify it, give it away, etc.. He is unrestricted. So what? That's true no matter what he does.

No, they started at the same place - the released version of the code.
Huh? He started a year ago, and now has worked for a FULL year without being paid for that work. He is 1 year in the hole -- depending on his skill, possibly about 100K. Acme corp is starting with no investment. He likely has debts to pay off, etc. etc. to say nothing of the psychological investment of a year of his life -- if he gets no money and no recognition out of it, that will hurt.

The fact that one part time programmer can't compete with 20 full time programmers is a pointless tautology. At any rate, even if Acme started from scratch, the 20 programmers could catch up in less than a month (the relesed program only represents one man-year of work).

Think for a moment about large projects you have worked on. 20 programmers can likely work on disparate features in parallel in a well-designed framework, but if they were trying to reproduce his year's work designing the architecture, deciding the featureset, etc. etc. that wouldn't translate at all into a month's work for 20 programmers. That would be chaos.

If his design and concept are crap, it doesn't matter much what he does. But if a year's worth of focussed thought have come up with something really sweet, this is something that cannot be measured at all in man-hours. Sure, Acme can take their chances, and put 20 guys on the project of coming up with a competitor... but they're starting from scratch, and remember that the majority of corporate development projects FAIL.

And if he GPL's it, it won't even take that long. Someone else can offer source+code for free, once they obtain it from him. Takes less than an hour to put it live on the internet - it's hard to compete with "exactly the same, but free."

Read the GPL. Someone else CANNOT offer his source and code for free -- they can only distribute it under the same GPL terms. If Acme wants to use his sweet architecture, they CANNOT freely give away their additions (GPL only), and they CANNOT sell their additions closed-source.

But if he wants to earn some money, he can sell bundling licenses, and he can sell closed source additions (which Acme could also develop... but not sell except as GPL, so they can't compete). MySQL is a real-life example of dual-licenses, but the kind of small project I'm thinking of is ActiveWidgets. Check out the site and see if you can tell me that his kind of small project would be better off with a BSD license. No one would need to pay him for anything. I like some of his components... but to use them on one of my commercial sites, I'd have to pay him.

Choosing GPL vs. BSD just means you are granting fewer rights to the rest of the world -- and if you want to, you can sell those specific rights (like commercial bundling) later, to commercial folks who need them and can afford them, whereas other GPL projects (who likely can't afford your licenses anyway) get to include your work without paying a cent.

Well...it doesn't have all the functionality of Excel, but ActiveWidgets does a good job.

A good start might be to avoid proprietary sillyness - although I'm not sure if your secondary example would work or not in FF this part: script language="JScript.Encode" src="ebagrid.js" will break it for everything but explorer, MS's encoded script stuff doesn't work with anything else.

Here is a perfectly functioning grid from the first site you mentioned.

Mitch,

Specific to Web Application development:

Many MS Access and VB developers (specifically) are attempting to move to rich client Web apps.

One of the problems we are encountering in working with FireFox is that we cannot set the focus to any element we want. In my case, I want to set the focus to any valid DIV on the page. In the MS IDEs this is possible and very useful.

Here are a couple of products that are attempting to do grid functions that do not work in Firefox because it appears that FireFox has a more limited Javascript implementation compared to IE:

Active Widgets discussion on .focus() in FF

Very functional JS grid. Works in IE, try the demos in FF

I understand that there might be XSS threats, but those of us who REALLY want to get away from MS development tools need to have just such specific functionality that is offered by IE and is obviously being used in the market in both closed and open source projects.

What is the plan to make FF a more development friendly tool for those of us who would like to attempt rich client apps with a cross-browser solution?

Thanks for your time.