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F*cked before, and f*cked after. Millions died under Mao. Ref: http://necrometrics.com/20c5m....

Interestingly that sort of bodycount is nothing new for China, at least according to this. Fall of the Ming Dynasty, 25 million, 17C. Taiping Rebellion, 20 million, 19C. An Lushan Revolt, 13 million, 8C. Xin Dynasty, 10 million, 1C. Fall of the Yuan Dynasty, 7½ million, 14C. Chinese Civil Wars, 7 million, 20C. Mao Zedong (mostly famine), 40 million 20C.

Just as Chinese "communism" is nothing of the sort but rather a return to its centuries-old beurocratic-Imperial tradition, complete with caste system, Mao's excesses were pretty much business as usual for the Middle Kingdom. Chinese culture and China in general can most certaily ill afford to start throwing stones in their particular glass house.

Also tangentially Genghis Khan managed to do away with twice as many people as Stalin, using only arrows and swords.

60 million is the number now?

Yes, 60 million is the number "now". Are you implying that at some point in the past almost 70 years, fewer people were thought to have died in WWII?

Let me guess, if I don't believe your statements

There are 5 references to the original crime, and a sixth to the definition of the actual definition of the crime committed. You gave 0 references.

Here's some more references for the specific number of 60 million deaths broken down by country:
http://www.nationalww2museum.o...
http://necrometrics.com/20c5m....

If you want to propose your own number, cite or shut up.

I should be thrown in jail?

Quit being a drama queen. You are literally the only person on this thread to mention jail or prison in this entire thread as of the time of writing. We get it; you're offended that people aren't neutral on the subject of Joseph Goebbels. You can get over it.

If you don't care about him orchestrating war crimes, maybe you will accept he's a criminal due to him murdering six children (his own children) before his sucide? Cite: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G.... Those were by his own hand.

Here's a philosophical question. What's worse, murdering your own children by your own hand, or intentionally causing the deaths of 60 million people (the vast majority of whom should be presumed innocent of any crime), but at arm's length? I'd go with the latter, but they are both pretty damned bad.

The only reason he wasn't tried for war crimes was he was already dead:

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/ar...

The IMT decided not to try them posthumously so as not to create the impression that they might still be alive.

It's not like it's unusual to not press charges on dead people. It doesn't do much good to anybody. Pretty safe bet he'd have been convicted.

It's not like this was an accident, that he couldn't have known what he was doing. It's certainly not thought crimes. We don't know Goebbels' thoughts, we know his actions.

Can you provide an example of something that the Soviets did that the United States has not done?

Slaughtering 20 million of their own citizens, and that's just under Stalin.

While you're formulating your answer, consider that the United States is the only country to nuke another country.

That's true, it ended WW2 with several million fewer casualties than an invasion of the Japanese mainland would have allowed.

We used our own prisoners and citizens as guinnea pigs to conduct experiments in nuclear, biological, and chemical warfare.

Common practice at the time, as reprehensible as we now view it. We also treated our prisoners significantly better than the Soviets powers did. Also bear in mind that things like the nasty side affects from radiation simply were not known at that time.

We engaged in witch hunts, like McCarthy appearing before Congress to say he "held in his hands" a list of known communist co-conspirators.

This doesn't even count as a pimple on the ass that is known as the Gulag's. Tens of millions of people were sentenced and countless millions were killed for political dissidence.

I'm not sure your claim that the USSR and the USA were significantly different in their propaganda campaigns

They were, and to be frank the US really sucks at propaganda and the Soviets were masters at it.

Let's put this in perspective. Please note that I am including civilian deaths and not just soldiers in these numbers.

The Korean war killed 3 million.
The Vietnam war killed 4.2 million.
Afghanistan wars killed 1.8 million. (Soviet and American)
The three wars you named together combine to about 7 million. Those three wars alone are less than the Congo Free State war or about on par with the holocaust. Their combined totals come to less than half of WW1 and a mere fraction of world war 2. The body count really is over a 100 million ahead just in the 20th century.

The site I have referred you to is a pretty good site with sources. Take some time to study it and look at the number for yourself.

US has created the best economic incentive system in the world.

The best incentive that seems to only work for sociopaths.

That is why people come to the US .. to earn more money.

_I_ came to US not "to earn money" but to develop technology after US-worshipping "libertarians" destroyed my country. I am lucky that they have destroyed it after I got excellent education, because if I lived in US, I would never have a chance to get anything even remotely resembling one that I got in the last years of USSR.

http://necrometrics.com/20c5m.htm#Stalin [necrometrics.com]

Oh wow, a web site of some nutcase, that cites works of fiction among its sources, lumps together victims of natural disasters with political executions and deaths in prisons, and follows each and every propaganda trick ever used against USSR government in general and Stalin in particular.

If you have any data to dispute that (I mean.. things that exist in reality) show it .. or shut the fuck up.

Everything based on NKVD/KGB archives, that were opened in 90's, but none of the US propaganda workers were interested. If anything, the bureaucrats counted and reported everything very well.

So everything that your defective communist brain contains must be "facts" and others are "propoganda". Communism should be laughed at and ridiculed at every opportunity Anything that can discredit it further is only a good thing. Not that we need anything more.

US has created the best economic incentive system in the world. If people were not greedy for money they would be communist. But people are greedy by nature and there is absolutely no dispute on this. That is why people come to the US .. to earn more money.

And 2 million lol.. the historic concenus is 20 million.

http://necrometrics.com/20c5m.htm#Stalin

If you have any data to dispute that (I mean.. things that exist in reality) show it .. or shut the fuck up.

But Jobs probably read Fyodor Dostoyevsky's books, including The Brothers Karamazov (I never read it in English, only in the original), and Dostoyevsky was once charged as a conspirator (was he or wasn't he is not important, but he was charged and was nearly killed for that, but instead spent time in Siberia.)

Why am I bringing this up? Because that's a book that explains this phenomena to a very fine degree, how from point of view of socialists the society is responsible for the failings of the men, and not the men themselves. The men are not responsible for their behavior in the minds of Socialists, it's the system that causes them to be 'bad' or 'wrong', whatever. But the idea then is that the system needs to be changed, the society needs to be changed, and once you change the society, the men will become better.

The books explores that this ideology is utter nonsense.

There is no such thing as society, there are only individuals, and it is up to individuals to be 'good' or 'bad', and we all have in us ability to be 'good'/'bad' (whatever that means, depends on the perspective). And so there is no way to change the society and then to adopt the people to that changed society, but it's the convenient idea, because it puts a target on individuals, requires individuals to become part of collective for 'common good', but then the goal becomes bigger than anything, because the goal is so wonderful, it's so righteous (in the minds of Socialists), that it doesn't matter what the means are taken to achieve that goal.

It's about pushing the 'society' to be righteous and good, it doesn't matter if you end up hurting a lot of individuals in the process, because the end goal is that everybody is happy and equal somehow and equally wealthy (in reality equally poor of-course), and basically it's like creating the heaven on earth. What wouldn't an ideologue sacrifice for that? Is it OK to kill 1 person to reach that goal?

How about 100 people?
10,000 people?
20,000,000 to 40,000,000 people?

So it's a similar situation, saying that a society or an ideology is responsible for something, where in reality it is the individuals themselves who are mostly responsible for what is happening around them.

Of-course I would add that many people did do a lot of damage to the education system over the years, that's not a revelation, it's only a testament that federal government should not have a monopoly on education and shouldn't be allowed to set goals and standards and programs. There needs to be competition in this, otherwise when people like those described in the linked video put their hands all over the government, the monopoly that they get into their hands becomes especially detrimental.

Way to single out "Christians". They weren't burning Qur'ans in China, they were killing each other. Do you know how many died in China during the Cultural Revolution? Estimates are at 40-70 million and these were not religiously motivated attacks.

Sure "a lot" of blacks, homosexuals, POWs, etc. were also killed in the war, but if you can point to any other group that was killed in the proportions jews were, I would love to have a link to your sources.

As in millions of deaths? Look no further than Russians, between the Reich and Stalin. Japan was pretty ruthless to the Chinese: WW2 Casualties NeroMetrics. I've had someone argue that the simply because there are more of either of these groups that it's not as bad. Human deaths are human deaths. Beyond the WW2 how about how many people died during Mao's Cultural Revolution? Estimates are at ~60 million, no religious motives there either 20th Century Genocides.