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Unfortunately, all of these have the same problem... they tie the interface and the logic together into one big mess. Great for throwing together a quick web page, or even a large, complex web site, but horrible for trying to maintain that website as new technologies come along. Why do you think that most major websites throw everything out and start over fresh every 6 months or so?

This is at the heart of the philosophy behind Iaijutsu-- an open source, object oriented web content and application development framework written in Perl.

Iaijutsu is similar to Zope in that content and application objects are created and maintained online, through folder trees and online forms. Classes can be created to handle various types of content (ie. GIF, PDF, XML, etc) in different ways. Classes can be created to do specific application tasks (ie. weblogs, discussion boards, parse headlines from RSS xml files)

However, where Iaijutsu parts with many other systems is a discipline of separation of content, presentation, and logic. Content is composed in object properties. Presentation is done with a very flexible template language. Logic is done either in Perl object classes, or with a hybrid XML/Perl class definition document where properties, methods, templates used, and template accessors are defined with optional perl implementation blocks.

The separation is a discipline: Content should never be tied to the presentation or logic. Logic should never be contained in the presentation (ie. the application should never be built in the template language!!!). Presentation should never be dictated by the logic.

In this way, you can target the results of a well designed set of content and application classes to just about any presentation device. (ie. layout & graphic 'themes' or 'skins' for 5.0 web browsers, VoXML for telephone access, WAP for handhelds and phones, etc...) Think XSL and XML.

Unfortunately, all of these have the same problem... they tie the interface and the logic together into one big mess. Great for throwing together a quick web page, or even a large, complex web site, but horrible for trying to maintain that website as new technologies come along. Why do you think that most major websites throw everything out and start over fresh every 6 months or so?

This is at the heart of the philosophy behind Iaijutsu-- an open source, object oriented web content and application development framework written in Perl.

Iaijutsu is similar to Zope in that content and application objects are created and maintained online, through folder trees and online forms. Classes can be created to handle various types of content (ie. GIF, PDF, XML, etc) in different ways. Classes can be created to do specific application tasks (ie. weblogs, discussion boards, parse headlines from RSS xml files)

However, where Iaijutsu parts with many other systems is a discipline of separation of content, presentation, and logic. Content is composed in object properties. Presentation is done with a very flexible template language. Logic is done either in Perl object classes, or with a hybrid XML/Perl class definition document where properties, methods, templates used, and template accessors are defined with optional perl implementation blocks.

The separation is a discipline: Content should never be tied to the presentation or logic. Logic should never be contained in the presentation (ie. the application should never be built in the template language!!!). Presentation should never be dictated by the logic.

In this way, you can target the results of a well designed set of content and application classes to just about any presentation device. (ie. layout & graphic 'themes' or 'skins' for 5.0 web browsers, VoXML for telephone access, WAP for handhelds and phones, etc...) Think XSL and XML.

Unfortunately, all of these have the same problem... they tie the interface and the logic together into one big mess. Great for throwing together a quick web page, or even a large, complex web site, but horrible for trying to maintain that website as new technologies come along. Why do you think that most major websites throw everything out and start over fresh every 6 months or so?

This is at the heart of the philosophy behind Iaijutsu-- an open source, object oriented web content and application development framework written in Perl.

Iaijutsu is similar to Zope in that content and application objects are created and maintained online, through folder trees and online forms. Classes can be created to handle various types of content (ie. GIF, PDF, XML, etc) in different ways. Classes can be created to do specific application tasks (ie. weblogs, discussion boards, parse headlines from RSS xml files)

However, where Iaijutsu parts with many other systems is a discipline of separation of content, presentation, and logic. Content is composed in object properties. Presentation is done with a very flexible template language. Logic is done either in Perl object classes, or with a hybrid XML/Perl class definition document where properties, methods, templates used, and template accessors are defined with optional perl implementation blocks.

The separation is a discipline: Content should never be tied to the presentation or logic. Logic should never be contained in the presentation (ie. the application should never be built in the template language!!!). Presentation should never be dictated by the logic.

In this way, you can target the results of a well designed set of content and application classes to just about any presentation device. (ie. layout & graphic 'themes' or 'skins' for 5.0 web browsers, VoXML for telephone access, WAP for handhelds and phones, etc...) Think XSL and XML.

For another Zope-like server environment in Perl, named Iaijutsu, see this comment and this website.

For another Zope-like server environment in Perl, named Iaijutsu, see this comment and this website.

Perl does have an app like Zope.

Mind you, I'm only pointing this out to say that Perl is not completely lacking in such a 'killer app', not to start another Python war.

Iaijutsu is an object oriented web content management and application development framework. It has a lot in common with Zope, but diverges in many conceptual areas.

What's magical about Zope is that it looks, to users, like a content-management system with a simple Web interface that anybody can use. A non-programmer can manage a simple website, using Zope, with little training.

Iaijutsu does that now. Although I can't mention the names of very many sites because they are clients for my day job, we have quite a few fairly large name clients using Iaijutsu's content management for their sites, intranets, and business-to-business document stores.

Yeah I know, kinda a weak claim. Just suffice it to say that someone is using Iaijutsu now.

Thanks to Zope's powerful object-oriented framework, it's easy to build such a site in an efficient and economical way, inheriting (or, in Zope-speak, acquiring) common elements from ancestral objects

Acquisition != Inheritance. More of a close cousin.

And you don't need acquisition for efficiency and economy-- on the contrary, I've kept acqusition from permeating the design of Iaijutsu because it seemed to me to be one of the most confusing aspects of Zope. However, acquisition is still possible in Iaijutsu. (There's more than one way to do it! :) )

Thanks to Zope's built-in object database, it's easy to restructure the site -- for example, by cutting a subtree of objects from one location and pasting it into another.

I implemented this about 6 months ago.

Out of the box, in other words, Zope is a useful Web content manager for nonprogrammers.

Iaijutsu is this right now. However, the documentation is even less complete than Zope's. :) Soon...

There's a tag language called DTML (Document Template Markup Language) which, like Cold Fusion Markup Language or Java Server Pages or Active Server Pages, mixes HTML templates with programming instructions that can populate these templates with data drawn from SQL stores or Zope's own object database.

Iaijutsu has this, via Andy Wardley's awesome Template Toolkit.

However, unlike Zope, Iaijutsu is designed with the philosophy that content, logic, and presentation should be like oil and water. The templates are for presentation-- you do not build application with template documents. This goes against the concept of DTML, ASP, JSP, LiveWire, PHP, EmbPerl, and all the other code-in-page systems.

You compose content in object properties, applications with object methods, and display content and application results via templates. The only logic in your HTML templates should be only what's required for display. (See XSL for a similar concept.)

When this mid-level programming environment runs out of gas, you can drop down to Python -- Zope's native implementation language -- to write powerful extensions that communicate intimately with Zope's internal machinery.

The same ability exists in Iaijutsu. Content and application classes can be written in Object Oriented Perl.

However, there is also a hybrid Perl/XML format for writing classes online in web forms. And you need not write any perl at all in these class definitions.

Anyway, I've babbled enough. Just trying to set the record straight, that Zope is not without competition soon. :)

Perl does have an app like Zope.

Mind you, I'm only pointing this out to say that Perl is not completely lacking in such a 'killer app', not to start another Python war.

Iaijutsu is an object oriented web content management and application development framework. It has a lot in common with Zope, but diverges in many conceptual areas.

What's magical about Zope is that it looks, to users, like a content-management system with a simple Web interface that anybody can use. A non-programmer can manage a simple website, using Zope, with little training.

Iaijutsu does that now. Although I can't mention the names of very many sites because they are clients for my day job, we have quite a few fairly large name clients using Iaijutsu's content management for their sites, intranets, and business-to-business document stores.

Yeah I know, kinda a weak claim. Just suffice it to say that someone is using Iaijutsu now.

Thanks to Zope's powerful object-oriented framework, it's easy to build such a site in an efficient and economical way, inheriting (or, in Zope-speak, acquiring) common elements from ancestral objects

Acquisition != Inheritance. More of a close cousin.

And you don't need acquisition for efficiency and economy-- on the contrary, I've kept acqusition from permeating the design of Iaijutsu because it seemed to me to be one of the most confusing aspects of Zope. However, acquisition is still possible in Iaijutsu. (There's more than one way to do it! :) )

Thanks to Zope's built-in object database, it's easy to restructure the site -- for example, by cutting a subtree of objects from one location and pasting it into another.

I implemented this about 6 months ago.

Out of the box, in other words, Zope is a useful Web content manager for nonprogrammers.

Iaijutsu is this right now. However, the documentation is even less complete than Zope's. :) Soon...

There's a tag language called DTML (Document Template Markup Language) which, like Cold Fusion Markup Language or Java Server Pages or Active Server Pages, mixes HTML templates with programming instructions that can populate these templates with data drawn from SQL stores or Zope's own object database.

Iaijutsu has this, via Andy Wardley's awesome Template Toolkit.

However, unlike Zope, Iaijutsu is designed with the philosophy that content, logic, and presentation should be like oil and water. The templates are for presentation-- you do not build application with template documents. This goes against the concept of DTML, ASP, JSP, LiveWire, PHP, EmbPerl, and all the other code-in-page systems.

You compose content in object properties, applications with object methods, and display content and application results via templates. The only logic in your HTML templates should be only what's required for display. (See XSL for a similar concept.)

When this mid-level programming environment runs out of gas, you can drop down to Python -- Zope's native implementation language -- to write powerful extensions that communicate intimately with Zope's internal machinery.

The same ability exists in Iaijutsu. Content and application classes can be written in Object Oriented Perl.

However, there is also a hybrid Perl/XML format for writing classes online in web forms. And you need not write any perl at all in these class definitions.

Anyway, I've babbled enough. Just trying to set the record straight, that Zope is not without competition soon. :)

Perl does have an app like Zope.

Mind you, I'm only pointing this out to say that Perl is not completely lacking in such a 'killer app', not to start another Python war.

Iaijutsu is an object oriented web content management and application development framework. It has a lot in common with Zope, but diverges in many conceptual areas.

What's magical about Zope is that it looks, to users, like a content-management system with a simple Web interface that anybody can use. A non-programmer can manage a simple website, using Zope, with little training.

Iaijutsu does that now. Although I can't mention the names of very many sites because they are clients for my day job, we have quite a few fairly large name clients using Iaijutsu's content management for their sites, intranets, and business-to-business document stores.

Yeah I know, kinda a weak claim. Just suffice it to say that someone is using Iaijutsu now.

Thanks to Zope's powerful object-oriented framework, it's easy to build such a site in an efficient and economical way, inheriting (or, in Zope-speak, acquiring) common elements from ancestral objects

Acquisition != Inheritance. More of a close cousin.

And you don't need acquisition for efficiency and economy-- on the contrary, I've kept acqusition from permeating the design of Iaijutsu because it seemed to me to be one of the most confusing aspects of Zope. However, acquisition is still possible in Iaijutsu. (There's more than one way to do it! :) )

Thanks to Zope's built-in object database, it's easy to restructure the site -- for example, by cutting a subtree of objects from one location and pasting it into another.

I implemented this about 6 months ago.

Out of the box, in other words, Zope is a useful Web content manager for nonprogrammers.

Iaijutsu is this right now. However, the documentation is even less complete than Zope's. :) Soon...

There's a tag language called DTML (Document Template Markup Language) which, like Cold Fusion Markup Language or Java Server Pages or Active Server Pages, mixes HTML templates with programming instructions that can populate these templates with data drawn from SQL stores or Zope's own object database.

Iaijutsu has this, via Andy Wardley's awesome Template Toolkit.

However, unlike Zope, Iaijutsu is designed with the philosophy that content, logic, and presentation should be like oil and water. The templates are for presentation-- you do not build application with template documents. This goes against the concept of DTML, ASP, JSP, LiveWire, PHP, EmbPerl, and all the other code-in-page systems.

You compose content in object properties, applications with object methods, and display content and application results via templates. The only logic in your HTML templates should be only what's required for display. (See XSL for a similar concept.)

When this mid-level programming environment runs out of gas, you can drop down to Python -- Zope's native implementation language -- to write powerful extensions that communicate intimately with Zope's internal machinery.

The same ability exists in Iaijutsu. Content and application classes can be written in Object Oriented Perl.

However, there is also a hybrid Perl/XML format for writing classes online in web forms. And you need not write any perl at all in these class definitions.

Anyway, I've babbled enough. Just trying to set the record straight, that Zope is not without competition soon. :)

Perl does have an app like Zope.

Mind you, I'm only pointing this out to say that Perl is not completely lacking in such a 'killer app', not to start another Python war.

Iaijutsu is an object oriented web content management and application development framework. It has a lot in common with Zope, but diverges in many conceptual areas.

What's magical about Zope is that it looks, to users, like a content-management system with a simple Web interface that anybody can use. A non-programmer can manage a simple website, using Zope, with little training.

Iaijutsu does that now. Although I can't mention the names of very many sites because they are clients for my day job, we have quite a few fairly large name clients using Iaijutsu's content management for their sites, intranets, and business-to-business document stores.

Yeah I know, kinda a weak claim. Just suffice it to say that someone is using Iaijutsu now.

Thanks to Zope's powerful object-oriented framework, it's easy to build such a site in an efficient and economical way, inheriting (or, in Zope-speak, acquiring) common elements from ancestral objects

Acquisition != Inheritance. More of a close cousin.

And you don't need acquisition for efficiency and economy-- on the contrary, I've kept acqusition from permeating the design of Iaijutsu because it seemed to me to be one of the most confusing aspects of Zope. However, acquisition is still possible in Iaijutsu. (There's more than one way to do it! :) )

Thanks to Zope's built-in object database, it's easy to restructure the site -- for example, by cutting a subtree of objects from one location and pasting it into another.

I implemented this about 6 months ago.

Out of the box, in other words, Zope is a useful Web content manager for nonprogrammers.

Iaijutsu is this right now. However, the documentation is even less complete than Zope's. :) Soon...

There's a tag language called DTML (Document Template Markup Language) which, like Cold Fusion Markup Language or Java Server Pages or Active Server Pages, mixes HTML templates with programming instructions that can populate these templates with data drawn from SQL stores or Zope's own object database.

Iaijutsu has this, via Andy Wardley's awesome Template Toolkit.

However, unlike Zope, Iaijutsu is designed with the philosophy that content, logic, and presentation should be like oil and water. The templates are for presentation-- you do not build application with template documents. This goes against the concept of DTML, ASP, JSP, LiveWire, PHP, EmbPerl, and all the other code-in-page systems.

You compose content in object properties, applications with object methods, and display content and application results via templates. The only logic in your HTML templates should be only what's required for display. (See XSL for a similar concept.)

When this mid-level programming environment runs out of gas, you can drop down to Python -- Zope's native implementation language -- to write powerful extensions that communicate intimately with Zope's internal machinery.

The same ability exists in Iaijutsu. Content and application classes can be written in Object Oriented Perl.

However, there is also a hybrid Perl/XML format for writing classes online in web forms. And you need not write any perl at all in these class definitions.

Anyway, I've babbled enough. Just trying to set the record straight, that Zope is not without competition soon. :)

Perl does have an app like Zope.

Mind you, I'm only pointing this out to say that Perl is not completely lacking in such a 'killer app', not to start another Python war.

Iaijutsu is an object oriented web content management and application development framework. It has a lot in common with Zope, but diverges in many conceptual areas.

What's magical about Zope is that it looks, to users, like a content-management system with a simple Web interface that anybody can use. A non-programmer can manage a simple website, using Zope, with little training.

Iaijutsu does that now. Although I can't mention the names of very many sites because they are clients for my day job, we have quite a few fairly large name clients using Iaijutsu's content management for their sites, intranets, and business-to-business document stores.

Yeah I know, kinda a weak claim. Just suffice it to say that someone is using Iaijutsu now.

Thanks to Zope's powerful object-oriented framework, it's easy to build such a site in an efficient and economical way, inheriting (or, in Zope-speak, acquiring) common elements from ancestral objects

Acquisition != Inheritance. More of a close cousin.

And you don't need acquisition for efficiency and economy-- on the contrary, I've kept acqusition from permeating the design of Iaijutsu because it seemed to me to be one of the most confusing aspects of Zope. However, acquisition is still possible in Iaijutsu. (There's more than one way to do it! :) )

Thanks to Zope's built-in object database, it's easy to restructure the site -- for example, by cutting a subtree of objects from one location and pasting it into another.

I implemented this about 6 months ago.

Out of the box, in other words, Zope is a useful Web content manager for nonprogrammers.

Iaijutsu is this right now. However, the documentation is even less complete than Zope's. :) Soon...

There's a tag language called DTML (Document Template Markup Language) which, like Cold Fusion Markup Language or Java Server Pages or Active Server Pages, mixes HTML templates with programming instructions that can populate these templates with data drawn from SQL stores or Zope's own object database.

Iaijutsu has this, via Andy Wardley's awesome Template Toolkit.

However, unlike Zope, Iaijutsu is designed with the philosophy that content, logic, and presentation should be like oil and water. The templates are for presentation-- you do not build application with template documents. This goes against the concept of DTML, ASP, JSP, LiveWire, PHP, EmbPerl, and all the other code-in-page systems.

You compose content in object properties, applications with object methods, and display content and application results via templates. The only logic in your HTML templates should be only what's required for display. (See XSL for a similar concept.)

When this mid-level programming environment runs out of gas, you can drop down to Python -- Zope's native implementation language -- to write powerful extensions that communicate intimately with Zope's internal machinery.

The same ability exists in Iaijutsu. Content and application classes can be written in Object Oriented Perl.

However, there is also a hybrid Perl/XML format for writing classes online in web forms. And you need not write any perl at all in these class definitions.

Anyway, I've babbled enough. Just trying to set the record straight, that Zope is not without competition soon. :)

Perl does have an app like Zope.

Mind you, I'm only pointing this out to say that Perl is not completely lacking in such a 'killer app', not to start another Python war.

Iaijutsu is an object oriented web content management and application development framework. It has a lot in common with Zope, but diverges in many conceptual areas.

What's magical about Zope is that it looks, to users, like a content-management system with a simple Web interface that anybody can use. A non-programmer can manage a simple website, using Zope, with little training.

Iaijutsu does that now. Although I can't mention the names of very many sites because they are clients for my day job, we have quite a few fairly large name clients using Iaijutsu's content management for their sites, intranets, and business-to-business document stores.

Yeah I know, kinda a weak claim. Just suffice it to say that someone is using Iaijutsu now.

Thanks to Zope's powerful object-oriented framework, it's easy to build such a site in an efficient and economical way, inheriting (or, in Zope-speak, acquiring) common elements from ancestral objects

Acquisition != Inheritance. More of a close cousin.

And you don't need acquisition for efficiency and economy-- on the contrary, I've kept acqusition from permeating the design of Iaijutsu because it seemed to me to be one of the most confusing aspects of Zope. However, acquisition is still possible in Iaijutsu. (There's more than one way to do it! :) )

Thanks to Zope's built-in object database, it's easy to restructure the site -- for example, by cutting a subtree of objects from one location and pasting it into another.

I implemented this about 6 months ago.

Out of the box, in other words, Zope is a useful Web content manager for nonprogrammers.

Iaijutsu is this right now. However, the documentation is even less complete than Zope's. :) Soon...

There's a tag language called DTML (Document Template Markup Language) which, like Cold Fusion Markup Language or Java Server Pages or Active Server Pages, mixes HTML templates with programming instructions that can populate these templates with data drawn from SQL stores or Zope's own object database.

Iaijutsu has this, via Andy Wardley's awesome Template Toolkit.

However, unlike Zope, Iaijutsu is designed with the philosophy that content, logic, and presentation should be like oil and water. The templates are for presentation-- you do not build application with template documents. This goes against the concept of DTML, ASP, JSP, LiveWire, PHP, EmbPerl, and all the other code-in-page systems.

You compose content in object properties, applications with object methods, and display content and application results via templates. The only logic in your HTML templates should be only what's required for display. (See XSL for a similar concept.)

When this mid-level programming environment runs out of gas, you can drop down to Python -- Zope's native implementation language -- to write powerful extensions that communicate intimately with Zope's internal machinery.

The same ability exists in Iaijutsu. Content and application classes can be written in Object Oriented Perl.

However, there is also a hybrid Perl/XML format for writing classes online in web forms. And you need not write any perl at all in these class definitions.

Anyway, I've babbled enough. Just trying to set the record straight, that Zope is not without competition soon. :)

Perl does have an app like Zope.

Mind you, I'm only pointing this out to say that Perl is not completely lacking in such a 'killer app', not to start another Python war.

Iaijutsu is an object oriented web content management and application development framework. It has a lot in common with Zope, but diverges in many conceptual areas.

What's magical about Zope is that it looks, to users, like a content-management system with a simple Web interface that anybody can use. A non-programmer can manage a simple website, using Zope, with little training.

Iaijutsu does that now. Although I can't mention the names of very many sites because they are clients for my day job, we have quite a few fairly large name clients using Iaijutsu's content management for their sites, intranets, and business-to-business document stores.

Yeah I know, kinda a weak claim. Just suffice it to say that someone is using Iaijutsu now.

Thanks to Zope's powerful object-oriented framework, it's easy to build such a site in an efficient and economical way, inheriting (or, in Zope-speak, acquiring) common elements from ancestral objects

Acquisition != Inheritance. More of a close cousin.

And you don't need acquisition for efficiency and economy-- on the contrary, I've kept acqusition from permeating the design of Iaijutsu because it seemed to me to be one of the most confusing aspects of Zope. However, acquisition is still possible in Iaijutsu. (There's more than one way to do it! :) )

Thanks to Zope's built-in object database, it's easy to restructure the site -- for example, by cutting a subtree of objects from one location and pasting it into another.

I implemented this about 6 months ago.

Out of the box, in other words, Zope is a useful Web content manager for nonprogrammers.

Iaijutsu is this right now. However, the documentation is even less complete than Zope's. :) Soon...

There's a tag language called DTML (Document Template Markup Language) which, like Cold Fusion Markup Language or Java Server Pages or Active Server Pages, mixes HTML templates with programming instructions that can populate these templates with data drawn from SQL stores or Zope's own object database.

Iaijutsu has this, via Andy Wardley's awesome Template Toolkit.

However, unlike Zope, Iaijutsu is designed with the philosophy that content, logic, and presentation should be like oil and water. The templates are for presentation-- you do not build application with template documents. This goes against the concept of DTML, ASP, JSP, LiveWire, PHP, EmbPerl, and all the other code-in-page systems.

You compose content in object properties, applications with object methods, and display content and application results via templates. The only logic in your HTML templates should be only what's required for display. (See XSL for a similar concept.)

When this mid-level programming environment runs out of gas, you can drop down to Python -- Zope's native implementation language -- to write powerful extensions that communicate intimately with Zope's internal machinery.

The same ability exists in Iaijutsu. Content and application classes can be written in Object Oriented Perl.

However, there is also a hybrid Perl/XML format for writing classes online in web forms. And you need not write any perl at all in these class definitions.

Anyway, I've babbled enough. Just trying to set the record straight, that Zope is not without competition soon. :)

Perl does have an app like Zope.

Mind you, I'm only pointing this out to say that Perl is not completely lacking in such a 'killer app', not to start another Python war.

Iaijutsu is an object oriented web content management and application development framework. It has a lot in common with Zope, but diverges in many conceptual areas.

What's magical about Zope is that it looks, to users, like a content-management system with a simple Web interface that anybody can use. A non-programmer can manage a simple website, using Zope, with little training.

Iaijutsu does that now. Although I can't mention the names of very many sites because they are clients for my day job, we have quite a few fairly large name clients using Iaijutsu's content management for their sites, intranets, and business-to-business document stores.

Yeah I know, kinda a weak claim. Just suffice it to say that someone is using Iaijutsu now.

Thanks to Zope's powerful object-oriented framework, it's easy to build such a site in an efficient and economical way, inheriting (or, in Zope-speak, acquiring) common elements from ancestral objects

Acquisition != Inheritance. More of a close cousin.

And you don't need acquisition for efficiency and economy-- on the contrary, I've kept acqusition from permeating the design of Iaijutsu because it seemed to me to be one of the most confusing aspects of Zope. However, acquisition is still possible in Iaijutsu. (There's more than one way to do it! :) )

Thanks to Zope's built-in object database, it's easy to restructure the site -- for example, by cutting a subtree of objects from one location and pasting it into another.

I implemented this about 6 months ago.

Out of the box, in other words, Zope is a useful Web content manager for nonprogrammers.

Iaijutsu is this right now. However, the documentation is even less complete than Zope's. :) Soon...

There's a tag language called DTML (Document Template Markup Language) which, like Cold Fusion Markup Language or Java Server Pages or Active Server Pages, mixes HTML templates with programming instructions that can populate these templates with data drawn from SQL stores or Zope's own object database.

Iaijutsu has this, via Andy Wardley's awesome Template Toolkit.

However, unlike Zope, Iaijutsu is designed with the philosophy that content, logic, and presentation should be like oil and water. The templates are for presentation-- you do not build application with template documents. This goes against the concept of DTML, ASP, JSP, LiveWire, PHP, EmbPerl, and all the other code-in-page systems.

You compose content in object properties, applications with object methods, and display content and application results via templates. The only logic in your HTML templates should be only what's required for display. (See XSL for a similar concept.)

When this mid-level programming environment runs out of gas, you can drop down to Python -- Zope's native implementation language -- to write powerful extensions that communicate intimately with Zope's internal machinery.

The same ability exists in Iaijutsu. Content and application classes can be written in Object Oriented Perl.

However, there is also a hybrid Perl/XML format for writing classes online in web forms. And you need not write any perl at all in these class definitions.

Anyway, I've babbled enough. Just trying to set the record straight, that Zope is not without competition soon. :)

Perl does have an app like Zope.

Mind you, I'm only pointing this out to say that Perl is not completely lacking in such a 'killer app', not to start another Python war.

Iaijutsu is an object oriented web content management and application development framework. It has a lot in common with Zope, but diverges in many conceptual areas.

What's magical about Zope is that it looks, to users, like a content-management system with a simple Web interface that anybody can use. A non-programmer can manage a simple website, using Zope, with little training.

Iaijutsu does that now. Although I can't mention the names of very many sites because they are clients for my day job, we have quite a few fairly large name clients using Iaijutsu's content management for their sites, intranets, and business-to-business document stores.

Yeah I know, kinda a weak claim. Just suffice it to say that someone is using Iaijutsu now.

Thanks to Zope's powerful object-oriented framework, it's easy to build such a site in an efficient and economical way, inheriting (or, in Zope-speak, acquiring) common elements from ancestral objects

Acquisition != Inheritance. More of a close cousin.

And you don't need acquisition for efficiency and economy-- on the contrary, I've kept acqusition from permeating the design of Iaijutsu because it seemed to me to be one of the most confusing aspects of Zope. However, acquisition is still possible in Iaijutsu. (There's more than one way to do it! :) )

Thanks to Zope's built-in object database, it's easy to restructure the site -- for example, by cutting a subtree of objects from one location and pasting it into another.

I implemented this about 6 months ago.

Out of the box, in other words, Zope is a useful Web content manager for nonprogrammers.

Iaijutsu is this right now. However, the documentation is even less complete than Zope's. :) Soon...

There's a tag language called DTML (Document Template Markup Language) which, like Cold Fusion Markup Language or Java Server Pages or Active Server Pages, mixes HTML templates with programming instructions that can populate these templates with data drawn from SQL stores or Zope's own object database.

Iaijutsu has this, via Andy Wardley's awesome Template Toolkit.

However, unlike Zope, Iaijutsu is designed with the philosophy that content, logic, and presentation should be like oil and water. The templates are for presentation-- you do not build application with template documents. This goes against the concept of DTML, ASP, JSP, LiveWire, PHP, EmbPerl, and all the other code-in-page systems.

You compose content in object properties, applications with object methods, and display content and application results via templates. The only logic in your HTML templates should be only what's required for display. (See XSL for a similar concept.)

When this mid-level programming environment runs out of gas, you can drop down to Python -- Zope's native implementation language -- to write powerful extensions that communicate intimately with Zope's internal machinery.

The same ability exists in Iaijutsu. Content and application classes can be written in Object Oriented Perl.

However, there is also a hybrid Perl/XML format for writing classes online in web forms. And you need not write any perl at all in these class definitions.

Anyway, I've babbled enough. Just trying to set the record straight, that Zope is not without competition soon. :)

Perl does have an app like Zope.

Mind you, I'm only pointing this out to say that Perl is not completely lacking in such a 'killer app', not to start another Python war.

Iaijutsu is an object oriented web content management and application development framework. It has a lot in common with Zope, but diverges in many conceptual areas.

What's magical about Zope is that it looks, to users, like a content-management system with a simple Web interface that anybody can use. A non-programmer can manage a simple website, using Zope, with little training.

Iaijutsu does that now. Although I can't mention the names of very many sites because they are clients for my day job, we have quite a few fairly large name clients using Iaijutsu's content management for their sites, intranets, and business-to-business document stores.

Yeah I know, kinda a weak claim. Just suffice it to say that someone is using Iaijutsu now.

Thanks to Zope's powerful object-oriented framework, it's easy to build such a site in an efficient and economical way, inheriting (or, in Zope-speak, acquiring) common elements from ancestral objects

Acquisition != Inheritance. More of a close cousin.

And you don't need acquisition for efficiency and economy-- on the contrary, I've kept acqusition from permeating the design of Iaijutsu because it seemed to me to be one of the most confusing aspects of Zope. However, acquisition is still possible in Iaijutsu. (There's more than one way to do it! :) )

Thanks to Zope's built-in object database, it's easy to restructure the site -- for example, by cutting a subtree of objects from one location and pasting it into another.

I implemented this about 6 months ago.

Out of the box, in other words, Zope is a useful Web content manager for nonprogrammers.

Iaijutsu is this right now. However, the documentation is even less complete than Zope's. :) Soon...

There's a tag language called DTML (Document Template Markup Language) which, like Cold Fusion Markup Language or Java Server Pages or Active Server Pages, mixes HTML templates with programming instructions that can populate these templates with data drawn from SQL stores or Zope's own object database.

Iaijutsu has this, via Andy Wardley's awesome Template Toolkit.

However, unlike Zope, Iaijutsu is designed with the philosophy that content, logic, and presentation should be like oil and water. The templates are for presentation-- you do not build application with template documents. This goes against the concept of DTML, ASP, JSP, LiveWire, PHP, EmbPerl, and all the other code-in-page systems.

You compose content in object properties, applications with object methods, and display content and application results via templates. The only logic in your HTML templates should be only what's required for display. (See XSL for a similar concept.)

When this mid-level programming environment runs out of gas, you can drop down to Python -- Zope's native implementation language -- to write powerful extensions that communicate intimately with Zope's internal machinery.

The same ability exists in Iaijutsu. Content and application classes can be written in Object Oriented Perl.

However, there is also a hybrid Perl/XML format for writing classes online in web forms. And you need not write any perl at all in these class definitions.

Anyway, I've babbled enough. Just trying to set the record straight, that Zope is not without competition soon. :)

Perl does have an app like Zope.

Mind you, I'm only pointing this out to say that Perl is not completely lacking in such a 'killer app', not to start another Python war.

Iaijutsu is an object oriented web content management and application development framework. It has a lot in common with Zope, but diverges in many conceptual areas.

What's magical about Zope is that it looks, to users, like a content-management system with a simple Web interface that anybody can use. A non-programmer can manage a simple website, using Zope, with little training.

Iaijutsu does that now. Although I can't mention the names of very many sites because they are clients for my day job, we have quite a few fairly large name clients using Iaijutsu's content management for their sites, intranets, and business-to-business document stores.

Yeah I know, kinda a weak claim. Just suffice it to say that someone is using Iaijutsu now.

Thanks to Zope's powerful object-oriented framework, it's easy to build such a site in an efficient and economical way, inheriting (or, in Zope-speak, acquiring) common elements from ancestral objects

Acquisition != Inheritance. More of a close cousin.

And you don't need acquisition for efficiency and economy-- on the contrary, I've kept acqusition from permeating the design of Iaijutsu because it seemed to me to be one of the most confusing aspects of Zope. However, acquisition is still possible in Iaijutsu. (There's more than one way to do it! :) )

Thanks to Zope's built-in object database, it's easy to restructure the site -- for example, by cutting a subtree of objects from one location and pasting it into another.

I implemented this about 6 months ago.

Out of the box, in other words, Zope is a useful Web content manager for nonprogrammers.

Iaijutsu is this right now. However, the documentation is even less complete than Zope's. :) Soon...

There's a tag language called DTML (Document Template Markup Language) which, like Cold Fusion Markup Language or Java Server Pages or Active Server Pages, mixes HTML templates with programming instructions that can populate these templates with data drawn from SQL stores or Zope's own object database.

Iaijutsu has this, via Andy Wardley's awesome Template Toolkit.

However, unlike Zope, Iaijutsu is designed with the philosophy that content, logic, and presentation should be like oil and water. The templates are for presentation-- you do not build application with template documents. This goes against the concept of DTML, ASP, JSP, LiveWire, PHP, EmbPerl, and all the other code-in-page systems.

You compose content in object properties, applications with object methods, and display content and application results via templates. The only logic in your HTML templates should be only what's required for display. (See XSL for a similar concept.)

When this mid-level programming environment runs out of gas, you can drop down to Python -- Zope's native implementation language -- to write powerful extensions that communicate intimately with Zope's internal machinery.

The same ability exists in Iaijutsu. Content and application classes can be written in Object Oriented Perl.

However, there is also a hybrid Perl/XML format for writing classes online in web forms. And you need not write any perl at all in these class definitions.

Anyway, I've babbled enough. Just trying to set the record straight, that Zope is not without competition soon. :)

Handspring Visor (TM) + iSilo (TM) + The Perl CD Bookshelf = Perl Hacker's Reference Nirvana

I carry 6 books with me on Perl, along with the whole bundle of Perl docs that come with Perl itself, on my Handspring Visor with a memory expansion module. It's nice, fairly readable and usable, and searchable. I even read the XS tutorial while in the can. It took some ponderance and reflection, and what a better place to do it? :)

As for the search engine on the CD-- it's in Java, and I've gotten it working under Linux. IIRC, there are directions in the kit on how to get it working.

As for books in general, I'm working on getting more and more of them into my Visor, but I still tend to need a physical papery copy of it lying around. Electronic books (at least on the Visor) still haven't gotten the correct user interface details down to replace paper.

My current companion is DocBook: The Definitive Guide, so that I can be a DocBook XML expert while composing the massive body of documentation for my Open Source project. Try learning a new set of XML tags without flipping rapidly back and forth to see what's valid within what, what attributes are legal where, and what the hell is this?

Handspring Visor (TM) + iSilo (TM) + The Perl CD Bookshelf = Perl Hacker's Reference Nirvana

I carry 6 books with me on Perl, along with the whole bundle of Perl docs that come with Perl itself, on my Handspring Visor with a memory expansion module. It's nice, fairly readable and usable, and searchable. I even read the XS tutorial while in the can. It took some ponderance and reflection, and what a better place to do it? :)

As for the search engine on the CD-- it's in Java, and I've gotten it working under Linux. IIRC, there are directions in the kit on how to get it working.

As for books in general, I'm working on getting more and more of them into my Visor, but I still tend to need a physical papery copy of it lying around. Electronic books (at least on the Visor) still haven't gotten the correct user interface details down to replace paper.

My current companion is DocBook: The Definitive Guide, so that I can be a DocBook XML expert while composing the massive body of documentation for my Open Source project. Try learning a new set of XML tags without flipping rapidly back and forth to see what's valid within what, what attributes are legal where, and what the hell is this?

• The documentation I'm writing (other than POD in the Perl modules) is being done with the DocBook DTD, which lets me write in one common format and publish in HTML, Word doc format, etc... all from one document.
  
• Content classes may be created using a hybrid Perl/XML format which defines the class' properties, methods, template accessors, and various other aspects.
  
• Objects in my system may be imported and exported in a simple, self describing XML format listing all of their properties. You can write it by hand easily in Textpad or Emacs to make lots of objects easily...
  
• XML is used to syndicate news and headlines from other sites, like the service Slashdot offers in the backend. I've written content classes in Iaijutsu which download these syndication files to collect headlines. And, I believe, Slashdot uses these files to make slashboxes.
  

• The documentation I'm writing (other than POD in the Perl modules) is being done with the DocBook DTD, which lets me write in one common format and publish in HTML, Word doc format, etc... all from one document.
  
• Content classes may be created using a hybrid Perl/XML format which defines the class' properties, methods, template accessors, and various other aspects.
  
• Objects in my system may be imported and exported in a simple, self describing XML format listing all of their properties. You can write it by hand easily in Textpad or Emacs to make lots of objects easily...
  
• XML is used to syndicate news and headlines from other sites, like the service Slashdot offers in the backend. I've written content classes in Iaijutsu which download these syndication files to collect headlines. And, I believe, Slashdot uses these files to make slashboxes.
  

First, thanks to the guys at SlashDot for the release, and for making the damn thing in the first place.

Second, either thanks or a big ole kick in the nuts to all the trolls and me too'ers who jumped on hounding CmdrTaco to release the source-- I haven't decided which yet. You guys were ruthless, and though I think you all are patting yourselves on the back on "making this happen," I somehow think that this was in the works for a bit longer than the latest round of fervor.

How many of you asking-- demanding!-- for the source to be released, have an Open Source software project of your own out there? (I do. It's the Iaijutsu Web Application Framework Project, also on SourceForge.)

Now I'm not asking this to say "Ah hah! Go make a release of your own before you throw stones!" However, it would be nice if you knew what it were like. I suspect there weren't a large proportion of people in the outcry who actually to have active Open Source projects out there. I tend ot think that those people who DO have projects going out there were going easy on the guys at SlashDot.

Why? Because making a release is HARD WORK, *especially* if your web application project has come to be tightly wedded to the machine it's running on and is not particulrly general to install on others. It's *especially* tough when you have a day job that takes up a lot of your time, such as oh say, running a major Internet destination for news and information. Most times its easier to just put it off awhile..

BUT!! You say. ESR told me to release early, release often! And I believe this-- but look at what happened to Mozilla. It's working now, but it took awhile-- they released *too early*. I truly think there *is* such a thing, release too early, without a clean enough package, without enough documentation, and people will bitch just as much to you about your crappy tarball as they have been about you not releasing earlier.

This isn't *POOF* "Sorry guys, I've been a prick, I guess I'll release all the top secret RPMS, Debian packages, tarballs, and 100 pages of docs and man pages I've been sitting on." There *is* a bit of work to be done to 1) Even get SlashDot code pried out of the machine it's running on, and 2) Package it up so that you can wedge it into your machine, and 3) Make it look vaguely like something someone other than CmdrTaco can understand.

Now I know a lot of you are going to say, screw you, I would have loved to have just the pure pile of steaming dung of random code SlashDot may be RIGHT THIS SECOND. (Apologies to SlashDot, but I've gotten the impression that tho it works well, it might not be pretty. :) ) But you know, that's really the author's perogative. Sometimes, you have a lil pride in what you want to show people.

I also know that, even tho you hopeful conumers of raw unpretty code may say you exist out there-- I know that there'll be just as many who download it and e-mail CmdrTaco "i cant get this Slish thing to do c00l stuph on my 31337 LinuxOne machine". So there's a support issue involved, even if you say you're not going to support it. So you have to have *some* answer to it, even it it's just taking a bit more time in the packaging, docs, and commenting to stave off some confusion.

So, have fun with it, and *please* try to go easy on the author of the release now that it's out... He's been called every name in the book, whil probably working his ass off. The last thing he needs now is a billion questions and everyone to say, "You know, this wasn't that cool after all, Slashdot code sucks!"

:)

This is a gripe I've had for years as these hybrid "You've got your peanut butter (code) in my chocolate (html). No, you've got your chocolate in my peanut butter!" web development systems have grown.

As a code-in-HTML system, PHP rocks over ASP. No doubt. If that's what you want.

While you CAN create complex, rich applications with those systems... They DO get hard to maintain and modify, and VERY hard to retool the user interface. And they throw monkey wrenches into the mix of task delegation between application developers, UI developers (i.e. HTML coders), and designers.

That's why I love Zope, and that's why I'm writing a competitor to it in Perl called Iaijutsu. I want the logic separated completely from presentation and to minimize the impact of changes on one from the other.

For a quick example: Can you do 'skins' with your web application in PHP? In other words, completely swap out the look-and-feel for another without touching any Perl/PHP/ASP/Python code? Iaijutsu can, because it uses a template system where the Perl code supplies a set of data to an HTML-like template language. Separation of logic from presentation.

If you don't like skins, then... can you instantly change the entire graphic design of your site using only graphic designers and HTML production artists when the Client sneezes? I, as the application developer, don't want to stay the weekend if it's only because I have to make sure my PHP code in the HTML doesn't break.

So, while PHP is great, compared to other HTML-and-code development environments, I hate the whole concept. I'm thinking as the web is maturing, it's turing more into an application environment.

If you're coming from an HTML-oriented standpoint, trying to make those pages do something, then PHP seems like the dog's tuxedo. But if you're coming from an application-oriented standpoint, thinking about your data and your functionality, and the window dressing later... the code-in-HTML concept does not make that easier.

This is a gripe I've had for years as these hybrid "You've got your peanut butter (code) in my chocolate (html). No, you've got your chocolate in my peanut butter!" web development systems have grown.

As a code-in-HTML system, PHP rocks over ASP. No doubt. If that's what you want.

While you CAN create complex, rich applications with those systems... They DO get hard to maintain and modify, and VERY hard to retool the user interface. And they throw monkey wrenches into the mix of task delegation between application developers, UI developers (i.e. HTML coders), and designers.

That's why I love Zope, and that's why I'm writing a competitor to it in Perl called Iaijutsu. I want the logic separated completely from presentation and to minimize the impact of changes on one from the other.

For a quick example: Can you do 'skins' with your web application in PHP? In other words, completely swap out the look-and-feel for another without touching any Perl/PHP/ASP/Python code? Iaijutsu can, because it uses a template system where the Perl code supplies a set of data to an HTML-like template language. Separation of logic from presentation.

If you don't like skins, then... can you instantly change the entire graphic design of your site using only graphic designers and HTML production artists when the Client sneezes? I, as the application developer, don't want to stay the weekend if it's only because I have to make sure my PHP code in the HTML doesn't break.

So, while PHP is great, compared to other HTML-and-code development environments, I hate the whole concept. I'm thinking as the web is maturing, it's turing more into an application environment.

If you're coming from an HTML-oriented standpoint, trying to make those pages do something, then PHP seems like the dog's tuxedo. But if you're coming from an application-oriented standpoint, thinking about your data and your functionality, and the window dressing later... the code-in-HTML concept does not make that easier.

I don't want to seem antagonistic or anything, and this isn't a flame, but I think you missed my point entirely. Read my post again.

I *do* see the value in accessing my files/apps/data from more than one computer. I *made* the point that I *am* doing web applications for precisely the reason you mention. I am developing a web application and content management framework entitled Iaijutsu (in case you missed all the links. :) ). I *do* access the web applications I write using my Palm III, and am hoping to do so with my Sprint PCS phone. I wasn't talking about desktop applications. I am *for* web applications, but not in the way SmartWorker does it.

The point I was making about another layer on the web is this: Why, specifically, another GUI toolkit? That's just another tight binding system between logic and presentation.

If I understand correctly, SmartWorker can be made to present application differently with a set of 'rendering engines'. I noticed engines for WinCE, DHTML, etc...

So, if I want to present the results of my application logic differently, I have to code another engine, right? Or, I have to reconstruct the code comprising my GUI layout logic, right? It requires someone with a knowledge of Perl to change the look & feel of an application in SmartWorker. In general, to change the presentation of my application in SmartWorker, I have to rework part of it's logic that has been devoted to manipulating the GUI toolkit. Is this correct?

Now, I while I also appreciate that perhaps I can separate my application and a SmartWorker GUI into modules with an established interface between them, my question is: Given the fact that we have a machine readable user interface specification format that is much simpler than Perl (i.e. HTML), why circumvent it by layering another toolkit on top of it and adding complexity and tight coupling to the application? I'm not saying HTML is the best, but it's well known and there are plenty of tools to build it.

The alternative I presented in my last post was this: A system like Zope or my Iaijutsu uses a template language to add flexibility to an HTML document to allow the presentation of the results of an application, mostly independent of the application itself. As long as the application generates the same well-defined data structure, the application logic is free to change, and the presentation is free to change-- independently of each other.

More practically, what this means is:

1) I'm the Perl guru, I write the backend code that churns through the database and returns some row data. 2) Upstairs is a graphic design geek who makes the pretty skins for my application. 3) The guy next to me is the HTML Production Artist who takes the designer's images and processes them into GIFs and HTML with Macromedia tools. He also takes my description of the template language and writes the simple looping tags that fill in table rows from my database results.

With SmartWorker, I think it might go more like this:

1) I write the Perl logic. 2) The designer hands the interface design image to the Production artist. 3) The production artist makes some GIFs, but no HTML, and hands that to me. 4) I write some Perl that lays out the tables and buttons and etc, as close as I can to the original Photoshop design. In this stage, we can't use anything like a nice Macromedia tool to generate a page because it's all done in Perl GUI toolkit calls.

Now, the client asks for a radical change, but luckily enough, it's just cosmetic-- the application inner workings are still the same.

With Zope or Iaijutsu the process goes like this:

1) I don't have to do much at all, because my part (the application) has remained the same. 2) The graphic designer reworks the image. 3) The HTML Production Artist imports the image into a Macromedia tool, cuts out all the images again, and recreates the HTML template using the methods I gave him. Job done.

With SmartWorker:

1) The designer reworks the image. 2) The Production Artist gives me another pile of gifs. 3) I toss out the Perl module I wrote to layout the GUI, and start over writing more Perl code to try to match the new GUI.

In summary, what's the problem here? For one, if any change is made to the presentation, we *all* have work to do because changing the SmartWorker GUI required Perl expertise. And for another, not only do we all have work to do, but we can't use all of the standard tools we have for HTML page layout.

So, with SmartWorker, our process of delegating work to each other's specific skill sets is broken, and the tools that make 5 minutes' work out of making a 'skin' for the application in HTML are lost.

I don't want to seem antagonistic or anything, and this isn't a flame, but I think you missed my point entirely. Read my post again.

I *do* see the value in accessing my files/apps/data from more than one computer. I *made* the point that I *am* doing web applications for precisely the reason you mention. I am developing a web application and content management framework entitled Iaijutsu (in case you missed all the links. :) ). I *do* access the web applications I write using my Palm III, and am hoping to do so with my Sprint PCS phone. I wasn't talking about desktop applications. I am *for* web applications, but not in the way SmartWorker does it.

The point I was making about another layer on the web is this: Why, specifically, another GUI toolkit? That's just another tight binding system between logic and presentation.

If I understand correctly, SmartWorker can be made to present application differently with a set of 'rendering engines'. I noticed engines for WinCE, DHTML, etc...

So, if I want to present the results of my application logic differently, I have to code another engine, right? Or, I have to reconstruct the code comprising my GUI layout logic, right? It requires someone with a knowledge of Perl to change the look & feel of an application in SmartWorker. In general, to change the presentation of my application in SmartWorker, I have to rework part of it's logic that has been devoted to manipulating the GUI toolkit. Is this correct?

Now, I while I also appreciate that perhaps I can separate my application and a SmartWorker GUI into modules with an established interface between them, my question is: Given the fact that we have a machine readable user interface specification format that is much simpler than Perl (i.e. HTML), why circumvent it by layering another toolkit on top of it and adding complexity and tight coupling to the application? I'm not saying HTML is the best, but it's well known and there are plenty of tools to build it.

The alternative I presented in my last post was this: A system like Zope or my Iaijutsu uses a template language to add flexibility to an HTML document to allow the presentation of the results of an application, mostly independent of the application itself. As long as the application generates the same well-defined data structure, the application logic is free to change, and the presentation is free to change-- independently of each other.

More practically, what this means is:

1) I'm the Perl guru, I write the backend code that churns through the database and returns some row data. 2) Upstairs is a graphic design geek who makes the pretty skins for my application. 3) The guy next to me is the HTML Production Artist who takes the designer's images and processes them into GIFs and HTML with Macromedia tools. He also takes my description of the template language and writes the simple looping tags that fill in table rows from my database results.

With SmartWorker, I think it might go more like this:

1) I write the Perl logic. 2) The designer hands the interface design image to the Production artist. 3) The production artist makes some GIFs, but no HTML, and hands that to me. 4) I write some Perl that lays out the tables and buttons and etc, as close as I can to the original Photoshop design. In this stage, we can't use anything like a nice Macromedia tool to generate a page because it's all done in Perl GUI toolkit calls.

Now, the client asks for a radical change, but luckily enough, it's just cosmetic-- the application inner workings are still the same.

With Zope or Iaijutsu the process goes like this:

1) I don't have to do much at all, because my part (the application) has remained the same. 2) The graphic designer reworks the image. 3) The HTML Production Artist imports the image into a Macromedia tool, cuts out all the images again, and recreates the HTML template using the methods I gave him. Job done.

With SmartWorker:

1) The designer reworks the image. 2) The Production Artist gives me another pile of gifs. 3) I toss out the Perl module I wrote to layout the GUI, and start over writing more Perl code to try to match the new GUI.

In summary, what's the problem here? For one, if any change is made to the presentation, we *all* have work to do because changing the SmartWorker GUI required Perl expertise. And for another, not only do we all have work to do, but we can't use all of the standard tools we have for HTML page layout.

So, with SmartWorker, our process of delegating work to each other's specific skill sets is broken, and the tools that make 5 minutes' work out of making a 'skin' for the application in HTML are lost.

I don't want to seem antagonistic or anything, and this isn't a flame, but I think you missed my point entirely. Read my post again.

I *do* see the value in accessing my files/apps/data from more than one computer. I *made* the point that I *am* doing web applications for precisely the reason you mention. I am developing a web application and content management framework entitled Iaijutsu (in case you missed all the links. :) ). I *do* access the web applications I write using my Palm III, and am hoping to do so with my Sprint PCS phone. I wasn't talking about desktop applications. I am *for* web applications, but not in the way SmartWorker does it.

The point I was making about another layer on the web is this: Why, specifically, another GUI toolkit? That's just another tight binding system between logic and presentation.

If I understand correctly, SmartWorker can be made to present application differently with a set of 'rendering engines'. I noticed engines for WinCE, DHTML, etc...

So, if I want to present the results of my application logic differently, I have to code another engine, right? Or, I have to reconstruct the code comprising my GUI layout logic, right? It requires someone with a knowledge of Perl to change the look & feel of an application in SmartWorker. In general, to change the presentation of my application in SmartWorker, I have to rework part of it's logic that has been devoted to manipulating the GUI toolkit. Is this correct?

Now, I while I also appreciate that perhaps I can separate my application and a SmartWorker GUI into modules with an established interface between them, my question is: Given the fact that we have a machine readable user interface specification format that is much simpler than Perl (i.e. HTML), why circumvent it by layering another toolkit on top of it and adding complexity and tight coupling to the application? I'm not saying HTML is the best, but it's well known and there are plenty of tools to build it.

The alternative I presented in my last post was this: A system like Zope or my Iaijutsu uses a template language to add flexibility to an HTML document to allow the presentation of the results of an application, mostly independent of the application itself. As long as the application generates the same well-defined data structure, the application logic is free to change, and the presentation is free to change-- independently of each other.

More practically, what this means is:

1) I'm the Perl guru, I write the backend code that churns through the database and returns some row data. 2) Upstairs is a graphic design geek who makes the pretty skins for my application. 3) The guy next to me is the HTML Production Artist who takes the designer's images and processes them into GIFs and HTML with Macromedia tools. He also takes my description of the template language and writes the simple looping tags that fill in table rows from my database results.

With SmartWorker, I think it might go more like this:

1) I write the Perl logic. 2) The designer hands the interface design image to the Production artist. 3) The production artist makes some GIFs, but no HTML, and hands that to me. 4) I write some Perl that lays out the tables and buttons and etc, as close as I can to the original Photoshop design. In this stage, we can't use anything like a nice Macromedia tool to generate a page because it's all done in Perl GUI toolkit calls.

Now, the client asks for a radical change, but luckily enough, it's just cosmetic-- the application inner workings are still the same.

With Zope or Iaijutsu the process goes like this:

1) I don't have to do much at all, because my part (the application) has remained the same. 2) The graphic designer reworks the image. 3) The HTML Production Artist imports the image into a Macromedia tool, cuts out all the images again, and recreates the HTML template using the methods I gave him. Job done.

With SmartWorker:

1) The designer reworks the image. 2) The Production Artist gives me another pile of gifs. 3) I toss out the Perl module I wrote to layout the GUI, and start over writing more Perl code to try to match the new GUI.

In summary, what's the problem here? For one, if any change is made to the presentation, we *all* have work to do because changing the SmartWorker GUI required Perl expertise. And for another, not only do we all have work to do, but we can't use all of the standard tools we have for HTML page layout.

So, with SmartWorker, our process of delegating work to each other's specific skill sets is broken, and the tools that make 5 minutes' work out of making a 'skin' for the application in HTML are lost.

I'm not getting on the bandwagon, and here's why...

For those who have no idea what it is, it's similar to Zope, except that it's written in Perl.

Nope, it's not like Zope. Check out my project, Iaijutsu. THAT is like Zope, only written in Perl.

Currently, the problem (for me!) is that all the presentation has to be hardcoded in Perl. You don't do any HTML, hopefully, you only manipulated high level objects. However, that's a problem for me who works closely with web page designers, and who is lazy enough to want them to deal with all the crappy HTML issues ...

Zope (and Iaijutsu) is an object-oriented content management tool and application framework.
SmartWorker is more akin to GTK and QT, as it's an abstract windowing toolkit on top of the web.

With a system like Zope or Iaijutsu, logic is separated from presentation by an HTML-based template language. Both Zope and Iaijutsu have object persistence databases which allow storage, search, and retrieval of content and application instances.

And in the case of Iaijutsu, I just recently finished a Skins support system that allows one to create sets of templates to completely change the look & feel of an app or set of content from a user preference, for example.

While SmartWorker does seem to have some persistence and session data facilities, from what I've seen so far, it's nothing like the object persistence database features of Zope or Iaijutsu. On the SmartWorker site, they claim 'This is not a system for generating web content from databases', and thus I think they'd agree. From what I've seen in SmartWorker so far, the data storage is nowhere near as sophisticated as Zope or Iaijutsu. I may be mistaken, so I'm going to keep investigating SmartWorker.

However the reason I'm not jumping on the SmartWorker bandwagon and will continue Iaijutsu development, is this:

SmartWorker is a GUI toolkit for the web. I don't need this. In fact, I'm doing web applications to escape the OS and GUI toolkits and tightly coupled logic and presentation.

I understand SmartWorker has different 'rendering engines' for different 'platforms', but it just doesn't seem flexible enough to me. Beyond just 'platforms', what about the simple fact that I have to collaborate with a) A graphic designer, b) An HTML production artist, c) The Money-providing Client?

I don't want to touch any Perl code when all we want to do is rearrange the form on the screen. We're not changing the data that flows in and out of the application, we're just changing the 'skin'. With Zope and Iaijutsu that's a task I can delegate off to an HTML slave. With SmartWorker, I have to rebuild the code that makes the GUI.

SmartWorker just seems like a misapplied metaphor to me. Because, we have an OS. On the OS is a windowing system. On that windowing system is a windowing toolkit. On that windowing toolkit is a web browser. And so with SmartWorker, we try to make the browser into a windowing system and build another layer of windowing toolkit? Just seems like a mistake to me that wipes out most of the flexibility the web browser provides for logic/presentation separation.

My $0.02. Oh, and check out Iaijutsu. =)

I'm not getting on the bandwagon, and here's why...

For those who have no idea what it is, it's similar to Zope, except that it's written in Perl.

Nope, it's not like Zope. Check out my project, Iaijutsu. THAT is like Zope, only written in Perl.

Currently, the problem (for me!) is that all the presentation has to be hardcoded in Perl. You don't do any HTML, hopefully, you only manipulated high level objects. However, that's a problem for me who works closely with web page designers, and who is lazy enough to want them to deal with all the crappy HTML issues ...

Zope (and Iaijutsu) is an object-oriented content management tool and application framework.
SmartWorker is more akin to GTK and QT, as it's an abstract windowing toolkit on top of the web.

With a system like Zope or Iaijutsu, logic is separated from presentation by an HTML-based template language. Both Zope and Iaijutsu have object persistence databases which allow storage, search, and retrieval of content and application instances.

And in the case of Iaijutsu, I just recently finished a Skins support system that allows one to create sets of templates to completely change the look & feel of an app or set of content from a user preference, for example.

While SmartWorker does seem to have some persistence and session data facilities, from what I've seen so far, it's nothing like the object persistence database features of Zope or Iaijutsu. On the SmartWorker site, they claim 'This is not a system for generating web content from databases', and thus I think they'd agree. From what I've seen in SmartWorker so far, the data storage is nowhere near as sophisticated as Zope or Iaijutsu. I may be mistaken, so I'm going to keep investigating SmartWorker.

However the reason I'm not jumping on the SmartWorker bandwagon and will continue Iaijutsu development, is this:

SmartWorker is a GUI toolkit for the web. I don't need this. In fact, I'm doing web applications to escape the OS and GUI toolkits and tightly coupled logic and presentation.

I understand SmartWorker has different 'rendering engines' for different 'platforms', but it just doesn't seem flexible enough to me. Beyond just 'platforms', what about the simple fact that I have to collaborate with a) A graphic designer, b) An HTML production artist, c) The Money-providing Client?

I don't want to touch any Perl code when all we want to do is rearrange the form on the screen. We're not changing the data that flows in and out of the application, we're just changing the 'skin'. With Zope and Iaijutsu that's a task I can delegate off to an HTML slave. With SmartWorker, I have to rebuild the code that makes the GUI.

SmartWorker just seems like a misapplied metaphor to me. Because, we have an OS. On the OS is a windowing system. On that windowing system is a windowing toolkit. On that windowing toolkit is a web browser. And so with SmartWorker, we try to make the browser into a windowing system and build another layer of windowing toolkit? Just seems like a mistake to me that wipes out most of the flexibility the web browser provides for logic/presentation separation.

My $0.02. Oh, and check out Iaijutsu. =)

I'm not getting on the bandwagon, and here's why...

For those who have no idea what it is, it's similar to Zope, except that it's written in Perl.

Nope, it's not like Zope. Check out my project, Iaijutsu. THAT is like Zope, only written in Perl.

Currently, the problem (for me!) is that all the presentation has to be hardcoded in Perl. You don't do any HTML, hopefully, you only manipulated high level objects. However, that's a problem for me who works closely with web page designers, and who is lazy enough to want them to deal with all the crappy HTML issues ...

Zope (and Iaijutsu) is an object-oriented content management tool and application framework.
SmartWorker is more akin to GTK and QT, as it's an abstract windowing toolkit on top of the web.

With a system like Zope or Iaijutsu, logic is separated from presentation by an HTML-based template language. Both Zope and Iaijutsu have object persistence databases which allow storage, search, and retrieval of content and application instances.

And in the case of Iaijutsu, I just recently finished a Skins support system that allows one to create sets of templates to completely change the look & feel of an app or set of content from a user preference, for example.

While SmartWorker does seem to have some persistence and session data facilities, from what I've seen so far, it's nothing like the object persistence database features of Zope or Iaijutsu. On the SmartWorker site, they claim 'This is not a system for generating web content from databases', and thus I think they'd agree. From what I've seen in SmartWorker so far, the data storage is nowhere near as sophisticated as Zope or Iaijutsu. I may be mistaken, so I'm going to keep investigating SmartWorker.

However the reason I'm not jumping on the SmartWorker bandwagon and will continue Iaijutsu development, is this:

SmartWorker is a GUI toolkit for the web. I don't need this. In fact, I'm doing web applications to escape the OS and GUI toolkits and tightly coupled logic and presentation.

I understand SmartWorker has different 'rendering engines' for different 'platforms', but it just doesn't seem flexible enough to me. Beyond just 'platforms', what about the simple fact that I have to collaborate with a) A graphic designer, b) An HTML production artist, c) The Money-providing Client?

I don't want to touch any Perl code when all we want to do is rearrange the form on the screen. We're not changing the data that flows in and out of the application, we're just changing the 'skin'. With Zope and Iaijutsu that's a task I can delegate off to an HTML slave. With SmartWorker, I have to rebuild the code that makes the GUI.

SmartWorker just seems like a misapplied metaphor to me. Because, we have an OS. On the OS is a windowing system. On that windowing system is a windowing toolkit. On that windowing toolkit is a web browser. And so with SmartWorker, we try to make the browser into a windowing system and build another layer of windowing toolkit? Just seems like a mistake to me that wipes out most of the flexibility the web browser provides for logic/presentation separation.

My $0.02. Oh, and check out Iaijutsu. =)

I'm not getting on the bandwagon, and here's why...

For those who have no idea what it is, it's similar to Zope, except that it's written in Perl.

Nope, it's not like Zope. Check out my project, Iaijutsu. THAT is like Zope, only written in Perl.

Currently, the problem (for me!) is that all the presentation has to be hardcoded in Perl. You don't do any HTML, hopefully, you only manipulated high level objects. However, that's a problem for me who works closely with web page designers, and who is lazy enough to want them to deal with all the crappy HTML issues ...

Zope (and Iaijutsu) is an object-oriented content management tool and application framework.
SmartWorker is more akin to GTK and QT, as it's an abstract windowing toolkit on top of the web.

With a system like Zope or Iaijutsu, logic is separated from presentation by an HTML-based template language. Both Zope and Iaijutsu have object persistence databases which allow storage, search, and retrieval of content and application instances.

And in the case of Iaijutsu, I just recently finished a Skins support system that allows one to create sets of templates to completely change the look & feel of an app or set of content from a user preference, for example.

While SmartWorker does seem to have some persistence and session data facilities, from what I've seen so far, it's nothing like the object persistence database features of Zope or Iaijutsu. On the SmartWorker site, they claim 'This is not a system for generating web content from databases', and thus I think they'd agree. From what I've seen in SmartWorker so far, the data storage is nowhere near as sophisticated as Zope or Iaijutsu. I may be mistaken, so I'm going to keep investigating SmartWorker.

However the reason I'm not jumping on the SmartWorker bandwagon and will continue Iaijutsu development, is this:

SmartWorker is a GUI toolkit for the web. I don't need this. In fact, I'm doing web applications to escape the OS and GUI toolkits and tightly coupled logic and presentation.

I understand SmartWorker has different 'rendering engines' for different 'platforms', but it just doesn't seem flexible enough to me. Beyond just 'platforms', what about the simple fact that I have to collaborate with a) A graphic designer, b) An HTML production artist, c) The Money-providing Client?

I don't want to touch any Perl code when all we want to do is rearrange the form on the screen. We're not changing the data that flows in and out of the application, we're just changing the 'skin'. With Zope and Iaijutsu that's a task I can delegate off to an HTML slave. With SmartWorker, I have to rebuild the code that makes the GUI.

SmartWorker just seems like a misapplied metaphor to me. Because, we have an OS. On the OS is a windowing system. On that windowing system is a windowing toolkit. On that windowing toolkit is a web browser. And so with SmartWorker, we try to make the browser into a windowing system and build another layer of windowing toolkit? Just seems like a mistake to me that wipes out most of the flexibility the web browser provides for logic/presentation separation.

My $0.02. Oh, and check out Iaijutsu. =)

I'm not getting on the bandwagon, and here's why...

For those who have no idea what it is, it's similar to Zope, except that it's written in Perl.

Nope, it's not like Zope. Check out my project, Iaijutsu. THAT is like Zope, only written in Perl.

Currently, the problem (for me!) is that all the presentation has to be hardcoded in Perl. You don't do any HTML, hopefully, you only manipulated high level objects. However, that's a problem for me who works closely with web page designers, and who is lazy enough to want them to deal with all the crappy HTML issues ...

Zope (and Iaijutsu) is an object-oriented content management tool and application framework.
SmartWorker is more akin to GTK and QT, as it's an abstract windowing toolkit on top of the web.

With a system like Zope or Iaijutsu, logic is separated from presentation by an HTML-based template language. Both Zope and Iaijutsu have object persistence databases which allow storage, search, and retrieval of content and application instances.

And in the case of Iaijutsu, I just recently finished a Skins support system that allows one to create sets of templates to completely change the look & feel of an app or set of content from a user preference, for example.

While SmartWorker does seem to have some persistence and session data facilities, from what I've seen so far, it's nothing like the object persistence database features of Zope or Iaijutsu. On the SmartWorker site, they claim 'This is not a system for generating web content from databases', and thus I think they'd agree. From what I've seen in SmartWorker so far, the data storage is nowhere near as sophisticated as Zope or Iaijutsu. I may be mistaken, so I'm going to keep investigating SmartWorker.

However the reason I'm not jumping on the SmartWorker bandwagon and will continue Iaijutsu development, is this:

SmartWorker is a GUI toolkit for the web. I don't need this. In fact, I'm doing web applications to escape the OS and GUI toolkits and tightly coupled logic and presentation.

I understand SmartWorker has different 'rendering engines' for different 'platforms', but it just doesn't seem flexible enough to me. Beyond just 'platforms', what about the simple fact that I have to collaborate with a) A graphic designer, b) An HTML production artist, c) The Money-providing Client?

I don't want to touch any Perl code when all we want to do is rearrange the form on the screen. We're not changing the data that flows in and out of the application, we're just changing the 'skin'. With Zope and Iaijutsu that's a task I can delegate off to an HTML slave. With SmartWorker, I have to rebuild the code that makes the GUI.

SmartWorker just seems like a misapplied metaphor to me. Because, we have an OS. On the OS is a windowing system. On that windowing system is a windowing toolkit. On that windowing toolkit is a web browser. And so with SmartWorker, we try to make the browser into a windowing system and build another layer of windowing toolkit? Just seems like a mistake to me that wipes out most of the flexibility the web browser provides for logic/presentation separation.

My $0.02. Oh, and check out Iaijutsu. =)

I'm not getting on the bandwagon, and here's why...

For those who have no idea what it is, it's similar to Zope, except that it's written in Perl.

Nope, it's not like Zope. Check out my project, Iaijutsu. THAT is like Zope, only written in Perl.

Currently, the problem (for me!) is that all the presentation has to be hardcoded in Perl. You don't do any HTML, hopefully, you only manipulated high level objects. However, that's a problem for me who works closely with web page designers, and who is lazy enough to want them to deal with all the crappy HTML issues ...

Zope (and Iaijutsu) is an object-oriented content management tool and application framework.
SmartWorker is more akin to GTK and QT, as it's an abstract windowing toolkit on top of the web.

With a system like Zope or Iaijutsu, logic is separated from presentation by an HTML-based template language. Both Zope and Iaijutsu have object persistence databases which allow storage, search, and retrieval of content and application instances.

And in the case of Iaijutsu, I just recently finished a Skins support system that allows one to create sets of templates to completely change the look & feel of an app or set of content from a user preference, for example.

While SmartWorker does seem to have some persistence and session data facilities, from what I've seen so far, it's nothing like the object persistence database features of Zope or Iaijutsu. On the SmartWorker site, they claim 'This is not a system for generating web content from databases', and thus I think they'd agree. From what I've seen in SmartWorker so far, the data storage is nowhere near as sophisticated as Zope or Iaijutsu. I may be mistaken, so I'm going to keep investigating SmartWorker.

However the reason I'm not jumping on the SmartWorker bandwagon and will continue Iaijutsu development, is this:

SmartWorker is a GUI toolkit for the web. I don't need this. In fact, I'm doing web applications to escape the OS and GUI toolkits and tightly coupled logic and presentation.

I understand SmartWorker has different 'rendering engines' for different 'platforms', but it just doesn't seem flexible enough to me. Beyond just 'platforms', what about the simple fact that I have to collaborate with a) A graphic designer, b) An HTML production artist, c) The Money-providing Client?

I don't want to touch any Perl code when all we want to do is rearrange the form on the screen. We're not changing the data that flows in and out of the application, we're just changing the 'skin'. With Zope and Iaijutsu that's a task I can delegate off to an HTML slave. With SmartWorker, I have to rebuild the code that makes the GUI.

SmartWorker just seems like a misapplied metaphor to me. Because, we have an OS. On the OS is a windowing system. On that windowing system is a windowing toolkit. On that windowing toolkit is a web browser. And so with SmartWorker, we try to make the browser into a windowing system and build another layer of windowing toolkit? Just seems like a mistake to me that wipes out most of the flexibility the web browser provides for logic/presentation separation.

My $0.02. Oh, and check out Iaijutsu. =)

I'm not getting on the bandwagon, and here's why...

For those who have no idea what it is, it's similar to Zope, except that it's written in Perl.

Nope, it's not like Zope. Check out my project, Iaijutsu. THAT is like Zope, only written in Perl.

Currently, the problem (for me!) is that all the presentation has to be hardcoded in Perl. You don't do any HTML, hopefully, you only manipulated high level objects. However, that's a problem for me who works closely with web page designers, and who is lazy enough to want them to deal with all the crappy HTML issues ...

Zope (and Iaijutsu) is an object-oriented content management tool and application framework.
SmartWorker is more akin to GTK and QT, as it's an abstract windowing toolkit on top of the web.

With a system like Zope or Iaijutsu, logic is separated from presentation by an HTML-based template language. Both Zope and Iaijutsu have object persistence databases which allow storage, search, and retrieval of content and application instances.

And in the case of Iaijutsu, I just recently finished a Skins support system that allows one to create sets of templates to completely change the look & feel of an app or set of content from a user preference, for example.

While SmartWorker does seem to have some persistence and session data facilities, from what I've seen so far, it's nothing like the object persistence database features of Zope or Iaijutsu. On the SmartWorker site, they claim 'This is not a system for generating web content from databases', and thus I think they'd agree. From what I've seen in SmartWorker so far, the data storage is nowhere near as sophisticated as Zope or Iaijutsu. I may be mistaken, so I'm going to keep investigating SmartWorker.

However the reason I'm not jumping on the SmartWorker bandwagon and will continue Iaijutsu development, is this:

SmartWorker is a GUI toolkit for the web. I don't need this. In fact, I'm doing web applications to escape the OS and GUI toolkits and tightly coupled logic and presentation.

I understand SmartWorker has different 'rendering engines' for different 'platforms', but it just doesn't seem flexible enough to me. Beyond just 'platforms', what about the simple fact that I have to collaborate with a) A graphic designer, b) An HTML production artist, c) The Money-providing Client?

I don't want to touch any Perl code when all we want to do is rearrange the form on the screen. We're not changing the data that flows in and out of the application, we're just changing the 'skin'. With Zope and Iaijutsu that's a task I can delegate off to an HTML slave. With SmartWorker, I have to rebuild the code that makes the GUI.

SmartWorker just seems like a misapplied metaphor to me. Because, we have an OS. On the OS is a windowing system. On that windowing system is a windowing toolkit. On that windowing toolkit is a web browser. And so with SmartWorker, we try to make the browser into a windowing system and build another layer of windowing toolkit? Just seems like a mistake to me that wipes out most of the flexibility the web browser provides for logic/presentation separation.

My $0.02. Oh, and check out Iaijutsu. =)

I'm not getting on the bandwagon, and here's why...

For those who have no idea what it is, it's similar to Zope, except that it's written in Perl.

Nope, it's not like Zope. Check out my project, Iaijutsu. THAT is like Zope, only written in Perl.

Currently, the problem (for me!) is that all the presentation has to be hardcoded in Perl. You don't do any HTML, hopefully, you only manipulated high level objects. However, that's a problem for me who works closely with web page designers, and who is lazy enough to want them to deal with all the crappy HTML issues ...

Zope (and Iaijutsu) is an object-oriented content management tool and application framework.
SmartWorker is more akin to GTK and QT, as it's an abstract windowing toolkit on top of the web.

With a system like Zope or Iaijutsu, logic is separated from presentation by an HTML-based template language. Both Zope and Iaijutsu have object persistence databases which allow storage, search, and retrieval of content and application instances.

And in the case of Iaijutsu, I just recently finished a Skins support system that allows one to create sets of templates to completely change the look & feel of an app or set of content from a user preference, for example.

While SmartWorker does seem to have some persistence and session data facilities, from what I've seen so far, it's nothing like the object persistence database features of Zope or Iaijutsu. On the SmartWorker site, they claim 'This is not a system for generating web content from databases', and thus I think they'd agree. From what I've seen in SmartWorker so far, the data storage is nowhere near as sophisticated as Zope or Iaijutsu. I may be mistaken, so I'm going to keep investigating SmartWorker.

However the reason I'm not jumping on the SmartWorker bandwagon and will continue Iaijutsu development, is this:

SmartWorker is a GUI toolkit for the web. I don't need this. In fact, I'm doing web applications to escape the OS and GUI toolkits and tightly coupled logic and presentation.

I understand SmartWorker has different 'rendering engines' for different 'platforms', but it just doesn't seem flexible enough to me. Beyond just 'platforms', what about the simple fact that I have to collaborate with a) A graphic designer, b) An HTML production artist, c) The Money-providing Client?

I don't want to touch any Perl code when all we want to do is rearrange the form on the screen. We're not changing the data that flows in and out of the application, we're just changing the 'skin'. With Zope and Iaijutsu that's a task I can delegate off to an HTML slave. With SmartWorker, I have to rebuild the code that makes the GUI.

SmartWorker just seems like a misapplied metaphor to me. Because, we have an OS. On the OS is a windowing system. On that windowing system is a windowing toolkit. On that windowing toolkit is a web browser. And so with SmartWorker, we try to make the browser into a windowing system and build another layer of windowing toolkit? Just seems like a mistake to me that wipes out most of the flexibility the web browser provides for logic/presentation separation.

My $0.02. Oh, and check out Iaijutsu. =)

I'm not getting on the bandwagon, and here's why...

For those who have no idea what it is, it's similar to Zope, except that it's written in Perl.

Nope, it's not like Zope. Check out my project, Iaijutsu. THAT is like Zope, only written in Perl.

Currently, the problem (for me!) is that all the presentation has to be hardcoded in Perl. You don't do any HTML, hopefully, you only manipulated high level objects. However, that's a problem for me who works closely with web page designers, and who is lazy enough to want them to deal with all the crappy HTML issues ...

Zope (and Iaijutsu) is an object-oriented content management tool and application framework.
SmartWorker is more akin to GTK and QT, as it's an abstract windowing toolkit on top of the web.

With a system like Zope or Iaijutsu, logic is separated from presentation by an HTML-based template language. Both Zope and Iaijutsu have object persistence databases which allow storage, search, and retrieval of content and application instances.

And in the case of Iaijutsu, I just recently finished a Skins support system that allows one to create sets of templates to completely change the look & feel of an app or set of content from a user preference, for example.

While SmartWorker does seem to have some persistence and session data facilities, from what I've seen so far, it's nothing like the object persistence database features of Zope or Iaijutsu. On the SmartWorker site, they claim 'This is not a system for generating web content from databases', and thus I think they'd agree. From what I've seen in SmartWorker so far, the data storage is nowhere near as sophisticated as Zope or Iaijutsu. I may be mistaken, so I'm going to keep investigating SmartWorker.

However the reason I'm not jumping on the SmartWorker bandwagon and will continue Iaijutsu development, is this:

SmartWorker is a GUI toolkit for the web. I don't need this. In fact, I'm doing web applications to escape the OS and GUI toolkits and tightly coupled logic and presentation.

I understand SmartWorker has different 'rendering engines' for different 'platforms', but it just doesn't seem flexible enough to me. Beyond just 'platforms', what about the simple fact that I have to collaborate with a) A graphic designer, b) An HTML production artist, c) The Money-providing Client?

I don't want to touch any Perl code when all we want to do is rearrange the form on the screen. We're not changing the data that flows in and out of the application, we're just changing the 'skin'. With Zope and Iaijutsu that's a task I can delegate off to an HTML slave. With SmartWorker, I have to rebuild the code that makes the GUI.

SmartWorker just seems like a misapplied metaphor to me. Because, we have an OS. On the OS is a windowing system. On that windowing system is a windowing toolkit. On that windowing toolkit is a web browser. And so with SmartWorker, we try to make the browser into a windowing system and build another layer of windowing toolkit? Just seems like a mistake to me that wipes out most of the flexibility the web browser provides for logic/presentation separation.

My $0.02. Oh, and check out Iaijutsu. =)