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That's how MAPS should work, by blocking the bad stuff so that RBL users just don't see it. There isn't any need to punish innocent sites who happen to be on the same class C.

Wrong. Media3 is currently the number one ISP for live spam sites accoring spamhaus.org. MAPS has been talking with these guys for months about their various spam-friendly activities. If an ISP keeps allowing spammers in, MAPS should block 'em.

If MAPS successfully got Media3 to shut down the spammer's site, then MAPS WOULD be dealing in
censorship, wouldn't they?

These aren't just people who say that spam should be allowed. They are people who spam to draw traffic to their websites, people who sell spamming software, and people who provide spam-friendly hosts services.

If MAPS blocked people for advocating spam, like, say, the DMA, then they would be censoring. But they don't; they only block people who spam or those who help spammers. Their criterion is based on an activity, not an opinion. That's not censorship as far as I'm concerned.

In fact, MAPS even goes so far as to give links to its various opponents on its web site. Censors? I don't think so.

"The agenda for our company is that 75% of our activities should be to promote our own products and services. Thus you know that we have to be good at what we do, as it is the way that we market business to business and business to consumer for ourselves."

"We guarantee that the mail that you hire us to send is based on the delivered pieces. We also guarantee that your site will stay up the full amount of time that you need to get the full results of the mailing."

• BulkIsp.com sends spam to promote themselves.
• BulkIsp.com sends spam for others for money.
• BulkIsp.com guarantees your site will stay up because they don't have to worry about any pesky AUP.

I'm amazed that the poster continues to quote the Media3 AUP and its CEO as if they had any credibility. Media3 hosts Spammers. This is not being debated. What this says about his character speaks far louder than his quibbling over whether they actually "spam" from his "service" per se. The fact is that Spammers pay a lot of money for bullet proof hosting of their mailservers, and Media3 is only too happy to take their checks.

MAPS is just a resource. We're the people who decide to apply their list on our mailservers and routers as a boycott against bad Net citizens until they learn to play by the rules. It works. I hope that PeaceFire chooses an alternative besides all out war against this important tool and our collective decision to use it.

[...] in all honesty, are you going to tell Peacefire.org to switch providers now because they're using the same service as MarketingMasters?

Yes. Although I support Peacefire's work (and even donated money to them), they should move. And if they want to stick with their spam-friendly ISP, then that's their choice, but my computers will stop talking to theirs. (And I probably won't give them money again, either.)

MAPS has taken the power they have and abused it.

It's not like they're pulling these judgements out of their collective ass or doing something secretive. They have a clear policy on what gets you in. According to a recent press release this ISP got listed for hosting spam-advertised sites. They are also clearly continuing to host sites that sell bulk-mail software and addresses. According to spamhaus.org, Media3 is the largest spam site hoster currently active.

RBL needs to be replaced. The original intention was to keep it as a list of sites that send spam.

I don't know if you've looked closely at any of your spam in the last couple of years, but the the vast majority of it now is from dialups, open relays, and weird foreign hosts. Making a "list of sites that send spam" won't do much good anymore; that's why they have expanded it to include relays and spam support services. As another poster mentioned, you have to follow the money to stop spam.

Still, if you think such a service would be more useful. you're welcome to start one. Note, though, that the only serious RBL competitor, ORBS, was substantially more aggressive than MAPS; I doubt an RBL-minus would be very popular.

---

The point here is not to punish a single spammer site; it's to punish an ISP that's been so badly behaved for so many months that there's nothing left to do but to ostracize them. It's unfortunate that banning an ISP harms their legit customers. (It's also unfortunate that boycotting, say, Microsoft or Starbucks or Nike harms a lot of perfectly nice employees.)

But how else do you suggest that we deal with a rogue ISP?

[...] in all honesty, are you going to tell Peacefire.org to switch providers now because they're using the same service as MarketingMasters?

Yes. Although I support Peacefire's work (and even donated money to them), they should move. And if they want to stick with their spam-friendly ISP, then that's their choice, but my computers will stop talking to theirs. (And I probably won't give them money again, either.)

MAPS has taken the power they have and abused it.

It's not like they're pulling these judgements out of their collective ass or doing something secretive. They have a clear policy on what gets you in. According to a recent press release this ISP got listed for hosting spam-advertised sites. They are also clearly continuing to host sites that sell bulk-mail software and addresses. According to spamhaus.org, Media3 is the largest spam site hoster currently active.

RBL needs to be replaced. The original intention was to keep it as a list of sites that send spam.

I don't know if you've looked closely at any of your spam in the last couple of years, but the the vast majority of it now is from dialups, open relays, and weird foreign hosts. Making a "list of sites that send spam" won't do much good anymore; that's why they have expanded it to include relays and spam support services. As another poster mentioned, you have to follow the money to stop spam.

Still, if you think such a service would be more useful. you're welcome to start one. Note, though, that the only serious RBL competitor, ORBS, was substantially more aggressive than MAPS; I doubt an RBL-minus would be very popular.

---

The point here is not to punish a single spammer site; it's to punish an ISP that's been so badly behaved for so many months that there's nothing left to do but to ostracize them. It's unfortunate that banning an ISP harms their legit customers. (It's also unfortunate that boycotting, say, Microsoft or Starbucks or Nike harms a lot of perfectly nice employees.)

But how else do you suggest that we deal with a rogue ISP?

If you look at spamhaus.org's page on marketingmasters.com, in addition to tidbits like the last four ISPs from which they've been terminated, you'll find the reasons cited for blackholing marketingmasters.com's IP address, as well as blackholing Media3.net's other addresses. This is part of MAPS RBL SOP (standard operating procedure). You may not like what they do, but they're operating within their guidelines here.

Under MAPS RBL clause III of Blackholing Due to Spam Support Services, the IP address 209.211.253.74 is now elegible for addition to the RBL.

Under MAPS RBL clause IX of Blackholing Due to Spam Support Services, if the host media3.net is knowingly providing Spam Support Services by knowingly hosting the marketingmasters.com Spam Service Site, parts of (up to all of) media3.net's netblock may be nominated to the MAPS RBL.

If you want to read the clauses directly, check out http://www.mail-abuse.org/rbl/candidacy.html#ByAss ociation, which outlines the criteria and reasons for including spam support companies in the RBL. The essence of their criteria is "providing any service which uses internet resources to support spamming activity," although they go into more detail as well.

Just a correction, according to spamhaus media3 is hosting not 1 but 21 spam sites, the largest on the list, and considering media3 is a grand total of a few class C networks, thats a pretty high percentage of their customers being spammers. My understanding is that it's a similar situation to the AGIS thing awhile ago. media3 won't cancel sites who spam using other accounts to advertise a site on media3. Because media3 won't wipe out these sites it's become quite a spammer's haven.

-- Greg

As with anything else, you should try to do business with reputable companies. These days, this is much easier than before the internet.

With an ISP, the first thing to do is read their AUP and the other agreements that you sign when you get service from them. Next, search for information about them.

With Media3, for example, it's pretty easy to find that they are a known spam-friendly ISP. If you think that's cool, then by all means use them. If not, maybe you should look elsewhere.

Here's some other interesting data on Media3:
Spamhaus.org's ranking of spam supporters

Media3's list of active spamhausen

OK, on three, let's have a great big "Awww" for poor widdle Media3.

1....2....3.... BPPPPPPT!

Here's some other interesting data on Media3:
Spamhaus.org's ranking of spam supporters

Media3's list of active spamhausen

OK, on three, let's have a great big "Awww" for poor widdle Media3.

1....2....3.... BPPPPPPT!

On the JPEG link, AT&T responded, saying that the contract was entered into by a sales rep (surprise!) without authorization. It further states that the agreement was terminated, and the customer disconnected.

I contacted AT&T regarding this story. Let's see if they respond.

ORIGINAL LETTER

I am writing concerning an online news story posted to slashdot.org that appears to contain a contract AT&T entered into with NevadaHosting.com. The contract appears to state that AT&T is knowingly hosting sites operated by NevadaHosting.com which are advertised by spam. I would not think a host like AT&T would host sites that may be engaged in illegal activity (spamming usually involves improper use of open mail relays, i.e. unauthorized use of computer equipment).

The Story May Be Viewed Here:
http://slashdot.org/article. pl? sid=00/11/02/1213252

The Contract May Be Viewed Here:
http://spamhaus.org/rokso/nevadahost ing .jpg

I'm hoping this story is simply inaccurate. Please respond.

Regards,
John

Some day I hope to have a .plan.