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> Writing web stuff in C/C++ is already all sorts of horrible,

Is it?

C/C++ is mabye 10-100x faster and more efficient for carefully written inner loops. At the level of whole systems, it's an entirely different story. Because C++ lacks garbage collection, people end up retaining far more memory than they need to.

Only people still using manual memory management.

Because algorithms are far harder to express in C++, people end up using brute force algorithms (linear search, etc.) a lot.

Is this some kind of joke? I would swap C++ for PHP anytime to actually GAIN possibility to express algorithms easily.

There is no such language where experienced programmer could do refined algorithm a well as in C++.

Because templates need specially compiled versions for each combination of template arguments, you end up with dozens of different instances of basically the same code.

Yeah, app code might occupy a little bit more. Really big apps in C++ have say 20 MB compiled. So they would be only 15MB without extensive template use. Hardly any difference if your memory space is in gigabytes.

But for many applications, like GUIs, C++ not only fails to be faster, it also ends up making everything a lot slower and more bloated.

It is hard to make general statements about C++ and GUI. In some cases, like MFC, you are certainly true. Other like Qt are better. Some claim to outrun everything else in terms of both development costs and runtime performance:

http://www.ultimatepp.org/www$uppweb$vsswing$en-us.html

If our desktops were largely written in Python, Ruby, or Smalltalk, we'd be using a lot less energy and be able to get by with smaller, less-powerful machines. That's in addition to all the savings from the reduced number of bugs and reduced development costs.

What a pity they are mainly written in C (GTK, Windows), Java (Android) and Objective C (MacOS X) then...

There is a very stable C++ IDE in Ultimate++.

Quoting from the site:
"U++ is a C++ cross-platform rapid application development framework focused on programmers productivity. It includes a set of libraries (GUI, SQL, etc..), and an integrated development environment.
...
TheIDE can work with GCC, MinGW and Visual C++ 9.0 as contained in free Windows Vista SDK and contains a full featured debugger. TheIDE can also be used to develop non-U++ applications."

Ultimate++ is a project as an IDE with a GUI Creator and a library (faster replacement for much of STL) with many additional helpful libraries that make C++ development so much smoother. http://ultimatepp.org/ Check out their forums as they are very active. I would download the latest SVN build from here: http://code.google.com/p/upp-mirror/downloads/list

Well, you would probably get more than just IDE with that, as TheIDE is quite tightly coupled with the U++ library (http://www.ultimatepp.org/L$www$uppweb$idess$en-us.html_3.png, http://www.ultimatepp.org/L$www$uppweb$idess$en-us.html_4.png), anyway, ide-wise:

- it has cool highlighting, including highlighting of C++ blocks and coloring parenthesis (see http://www.ultimatepp.org/L$www$uppweb$idess$en-us.html_2.png)

- its C++ code-parsing abilitites (for purposes of code-navigation and 'intelisense') are at the moment said to be better than CDT's or at par with Visual Studio, although the problem is that it parses only the project files (not 'external' headers) http://www.ultimatepp.org/L$www$uppweb$idess$en-us.html_5.png.

- if you are rebuilding large projects often, it has very fast build process. It uses two tricks, one widely known (using multiple CPU cores to launch compiler instances), one special (combining files to avoid header reparsing). In practice, on quadcore CPU, it can build up to 16 times faster than plain make.

- works in Win32 and X11.

But there is also a drawback for many users:

- as it adds a strong crossplatform modularity layer, it gets a lot of suffering getting used to it. Simply do not expect your usual Visual Studio copy...

Well, you would probably get more than just IDE with that, as TheIDE is quite tightly coupled with the U++ library (http://www.ultimatepp.org/L$www$uppweb$idess$en-us.html_3.png, http://www.ultimatepp.org/L$www$uppweb$idess$en-us.html_4.png), anyway, ide-wise:

- it has cool highlighting, including highlighting of C++ blocks and coloring parenthesis (see http://www.ultimatepp.org/L$www$uppweb$idess$en-us.html_2.png)

- its C++ code-parsing abilitites (for purposes of code-navigation and 'intelisense') are at the moment said to be better than CDT's or at par with Visual Studio, although the problem is that it parses only the project files (not 'external' headers) http://www.ultimatepp.org/L$www$uppweb$idess$en-us.html_5.png.

- if you are rebuilding large projects often, it has very fast build process. It uses two tricks, one widely known (using multiple CPU cores to launch compiler instances), one special (combining files to avoid header reparsing). In practice, on quadcore CPU, it can build up to 16 times faster than plain make.

- works in Win32 and X11.

But there is also a drawback for many users:

- as it adds a strong crossplatform modularity layer, it gets a lot of suffering getting used to it. Simply do not expect your usual Visual Studio copy...

Well, you would probably get more than just IDE with that, as TheIDE is quite tightly coupled with the U++ library (http://www.ultimatepp.org/L$www$uppweb$idess$en-us.html_3.png, http://www.ultimatepp.org/L$www$uppweb$idess$en-us.html_4.png), anyway, ide-wise:

- it has cool highlighting, including highlighting of C++ blocks and coloring parenthesis (see http://www.ultimatepp.org/L$www$uppweb$idess$en-us.html_2.png)

- its C++ code-parsing abilitites (for purposes of code-navigation and 'intelisense') are at the moment said to be better than CDT's or at par with Visual Studio, although the problem is that it parses only the project files (not 'external' headers) http://www.ultimatepp.org/L$www$uppweb$idess$en-us.html_5.png.

- if you are rebuilding large projects often, it has very fast build process. It uses two tricks, one widely known (using multiple CPU cores to launch compiler instances), one special (combining files to avoid header reparsing). In practice, on quadcore CPU, it can build up to 16 times faster than plain make.

- works in Win32 and X11.

But there is also a drawback for many users:

- as it adds a strong crossplatform modularity layer, it gets a lot of suffering getting used to it. Simply do not expect your usual Visual Studio copy...

Well, you would probably get more than just IDE with that, as TheIDE is quite tightly coupled with the U++ library (http://www.ultimatepp.org/L$www$uppweb$idess$en-us.html_3.png, http://www.ultimatepp.org/L$www$uppweb$idess$en-us.html_4.png), anyway, ide-wise:

- it has cool highlighting, including highlighting of C++ blocks and coloring parenthesis (see http://www.ultimatepp.org/L$www$uppweb$idess$en-us.html_2.png)

- its C++ code-parsing abilitites (for purposes of code-navigation and 'intelisense') are at the moment said to be better than CDT's or at par with Visual Studio, although the problem is that it parses only the project files (not 'external' headers) http://www.ultimatepp.org/L$www$uppweb$idess$en-us.html_5.png.

- if you are rebuilding large projects often, it has very fast build process. It uses two tricks, one widely known (using multiple CPU cores to launch compiler instances), one special (combining files to avoid header reparsing). In practice, on quadcore CPU, it can build up to 16 times faster than plain make.

- works in Win32 and X11.

But there is also a drawback for many users:

- as it adds a strong crossplatform modularity layer, it gets a lot of suffering getting used to it. Simply do not expect your usual Visual Studio copy...

Do you really believe that C# is more portable than C++?

The only thing that gives it even a hint of appearing to be cross platform is that you're writing using a standard library (the .net api). Such libraries already exist in C++ and have for some time.

C# does not run as well on any other platform as it does on Windows - just a fact. Winforms support is still heavily lacking, etc. I can guarantee it never will, either. .NET is said to be a move towards a cross-platform development stack because Microsoft badly needs to maintain the image of 'playing nice' so they won't get the legal smackdown again, but it never will be fully compatible. Microsoft wants it that way.

And what about Ultimate++ ? ( http://www.ultimatepp.org/ )
It is a C++ cross-platform IDE and GUI
with multiple compiler support, visual designer,
with integrated code analysis and trasformation tools
debugger support integrated in the IDE, etc. etc.
Check the web site to see the Chameleon skinning support
( http://www.ultimatepp.org/www$uppweb$chss$en-us.ht ml )
lots of example applications
( http://www.ultimatepp.org/www$uppweb$examples$en-u s.html )
and full documentation for everything.

And what about Ultimate++ ? ( http://www.ultimatepp.org/ )
It is a C++ cross-platform IDE and GUI
with multiple compiler support, visual designer,
with integrated code analysis and trasformation tools
debugger support integrated in the IDE, etc. etc.
Check the web site to see the Chameleon skinning support
( http://www.ultimatepp.org/www$uppweb$chss$en-us.ht ml )
lots of example applications
( http://www.ultimatepp.org/www$uppweb$examples$en-u s.html )
and full documentation for everything.

And what about Ultimate++ ? ( http://www.ultimatepp.org/ )
It is a C++ cross-platform IDE and GUI
with multiple compiler support, visual designer,
with integrated code analysis and trasformation tools
debugger support integrated in the IDE, etc. etc.
Check the web site to see the Chameleon skinning support
( http://www.ultimatepp.org/www$uppweb$chss$en-us.ht ml )
lots of example applications
( http://www.ultimatepp.org/www$uppweb$examples$en-u s.html )
and full documentation for everything.

Well, there are many things you got wrong (e.g. ptr_vector exposes objects, not pointers, memory allocation can have zero overhead, at least in U++ it has, etc...), but this is a little bit dead thread. I welcome you to discuss this issue in this somewhat related thread: http://www.ultimatepp.org/forum/index.php?t=msg&th =1738&start=0&S=a60a17415da420a4cd756711de199c23 Mirek

You absolutely do not need GC in C++.

Using the right style and library, you can avoid all problems with resource management, without using GC or "smart" reference counting and create clean and easy to maintain code faster than in Python.

See: http://www.ultimatepp.org/www$uppweb$overview$en-u s.html
(Disclaimer: I am biased member of team).

(Unfortunately, there is too many "experts" in the field to get such simple solution of the problem of "programming" widely accepted fast :)

If you are looking for alternatives, do not forget about Ultimate++ - www.ultimatepp.org, BSD licensed C++ platform, including IDE. IMHO, Ultimate++ completely dominates not only other C++ development options, but is on par with scripting languages - with C/C++ exection speed. Unfortunately, that "HO" is biased, as I am the member of U++ project team :-) Nevertheless, you can still try it to find out. An introduction to U++ is here: http://www.codeproject.com/useritems/IntroUpp.asp and library overview here: http://www.ultimatepp.org/www$uppweb$overview$en-u s.html