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"It has 22 degrees of freedom" Yes, but if the Republican controlled Senate passes the legislation it wants, they'll be able to cut it down to just nine degrees of freedom. Take that, you godless humanoid robot !!"

And if you zoom all the way out you'll see the blatant proof that the moon is a godless, souless, monotonous place devoid of imagination.

"It has 22 degrees of freedom" Yes, but if the Republican controlled Senate passes the legislation it wants, they'll be able to cut it down to just nine degrees of freedom. Take that, you godless humanoid robot !!"

This is, of course, patent bullshit. A school is supposed to have a valedictorian not (as someone said) 47. Only public schools are subject to this nonsense, though (I believe), as only people who can't (no offense) or won't send their kids to private school usually complain about how, you know, they don't have any other option, and their kids are doing their best, and the school can't tell them they aren't insanely brilliant, it might hurt their self-esteem.

My opinion on how to fix public schools? Institute a voucher system. Make it so people who can't normally get the better education from a private school because they can't afford it, able to afford it. Give the public school system some competition. Oh, and don't say the government can't afford it - make them equivalent worth to an education in a public school. The Seattle School District, I understand, spends about $10,000 a year on each student. My (private) high school did it on less than $6,000. Not that they couldn't use that other four grand, but they didn't need it to give us students a better education.

Nothing about the 1st amendment, either. Vouchers neither promote or inhibit any one religion, or group thereof. They assist all equally, which is not prohibited by the bill of rights. And they do so better than public schools - such institutions can't even teach an impersonal, godless, religion-free "Intelligent Design" theory, or even say that evolution is only a theory! So Pythagoras, who, by the way, has always been right so far (in Euclidian geometry), has only a theory, but Darwin, with evolution, has (un)proven, scientific fact?! (don't argue, there really is no way to prove evolution without a time machine)

And if some private academy costs more that $10,000 a year? Make the vouchers worth that $10,000 or whatever, and the folks who want that academy for their kids can pay the difference.

</RANT>

One last thing: quiz time.

Q: Why do some countries (I'm thinking of Japan, but I'm sure there are others) suddenly jump past the US's 229 years of free intelligence in only 60 years?

• A: (my answer) Because their culture has a strong work ethic and expectation to succeed as an integral part of culture. The US won't do that because we don't want kids to be unhappy, or to realize that they aren't the best.

The real fix? Teach everyone in this country that it's okay not to be the smartest, the fastest, or the best in any other way. Then maybe it would be okay to tell them they're not the best. Maybe then they would try harder.

Perhaps they couldn't do this in the U.S.

The war on terrorism likely prevented this happening there. I agree that it's sad anyone else has gotten this involved in what was essentially a U.S. fight.

Though if I recall correctly, the U.S. wasn't the only country to be populated completely by godless people.

Bomb Mecca, blame the United States, blame the Bush Administration, blame the Saudi's, blame the Muslims and the Jews and the Christians and the Godless. It so easy to blame everyone for everything, but look within your own heart, where there is hatred, hatred you will reap. Where there is love, then love you will receive.

The war between who has a better OS, BSD or Linux is a much better battle to be fighting. I'd even say Billy can play, provided he doesn't try and steal the ball and go home.
"Peace Love & Linux" --Big Americian Mega Company

Christianity:
Kill the godless Giants! Else God will send another flood (global warming)

Islam:
Theyre not believers and the meat is not halaal. Put them to work for glory!

Judasim:
Another race of people who will take the sacred land of Israel from the Chosen People. Loan them money and charge interest!

Hinduism:
Theyre untouchables. Just stay away.

Buddhism:
Peace dude! Theyre Yetis.

Warcraft players:
Farm them and arm them!

Counterstrike players:
Aimbots!

"I really wonder what the religions will say of these people when they will exist again?"

Most of the monotheistic world would probably (narrowmindedly) label the restored Neanderthals as the godless artifical offspring of the "Giants" written about in the Book of Genesis. The offspring of human females and the "angels" discarded from Heaven (I guess that depends upon the interpretation of these angels were part of Satan's flock). The offspring that were so wicked that *The Flood* was meant to destroy.

I'm sure they'll have a problem with it though.. protesters tend to wrap up their identity in the fact that they're a protester. If you fix the problem they care about, they'll find something else to protest about, because otherwise they have to stop protesting.

In reality these type of people really don't care about the issue they're protesting. They care about changing people's lifestyles. They pick what to protest so that success is most likely to change people's lifestyle to what they think it should be. Once somebody comes up with a way to satisfy the curent lifestyle requirements of the general population and the protesters demands, they move on to some other strategically chosen thing to be opposed to.

Someday somebody will come up with a way to generate energy that, for all practical purposes, produces an infinite supply and is polution free. People will be able to use all the power to synthesize matter... Anything they want, like, a steak for example. Then they'll be able to get in their overpowered, overindulgent vehicle and go wherever they want whenever they want and break down any cultural barriers that still remain. Then all those lifestyle protesters will be forced to preach their ethical ideals like religous nuts in some godless cult of minimalism.

An amazing amount of "crime" was also "prevented" by the Taliban Holy Warriors interrogating passers by, arresting those deemed suspicious, torturing them and then shooting anyone whose answers led them to believe he was a filthy, immoral, godless heretic. This policy has prevented, Allah willing, all sorts of villany such as pick-pocketing and drinking alcohol to nearly zero.

How about we keep this to US jurisdiction ok? Traffic stops catch a lot of outstanding warrants, you know, people wanted for crimes for which they will face trial.

I could not help but notice that beside this cheerful proclamation, you did not attempt to dispute the actual argument.

I was frankly hurting my head trying to figure out how requesting a policeman check out a suspicious vehicle logically turns into strip searches and checkpoints. It was MY REQUEST.

In the case of the article we are discussing, the owner of the AP had no legitimate leg to stand on and yet the laptop user was arrested, mainly due to the AP owner's insistence. A solid basis for civil legal action if I ever saw one (and yes the cops are also responsible for this mis-application of law).

Ah yes the meat of the matter. The owner of the AP is an idiot (census work???) and yes has no leg to stand on. But unfortunately for the SUV guy he is technically in a bad place with respect to the law on this, since it is so vague. My feeling is if its open its fair game as long as you don't breach any PC on the net. Chances are the cops in question have had exactly ZERO training in these circumstances and know nothing more than the FUD the evening news spreads about wireless wardriving evildoers. They probably even went so far as to ask someone higher up who was probably also clueless about the law on this. I also think that 90% of computer and network stuff is too dangerous (for legal reasons like this) for the general public to have just for asking. Isn't it nice that we live in a world where you can be arrested because someone else is an idiot?

Which even if he is not, does not grant him or you any right to attempt to get me arrested and prosecuted, since as I already discussed extensively in other posts, there is no physical distinction between an "open, public" and "open, by accident" hubs. All your neighbour is entitled to is to turn on encryption or turn off his hub. See, you are already crossing the line into malicious accusations/persecution by being a nosy busybody.

He has every right to contact the police about any concern he has, it is then the police's duty to determine the appropriate course of action.

And who really is the nosy busybody, me looking after the interests of me and my neighbors or the never-been-around-before guy snooping for open WAPs?

An amazing amount of "crime" was also "prevented" by the Taliban Holy Warriors interrogating passers by, arresting those deemed suspicious, torturing them and then shooting anyone whose answers led them to believe he was a filthy, immoral, godless heretic. This policy has prevented, Allah willing, all sorts of villany such as pick-pocketing and drinking alcohol to nearly zero.

Please take a class on logic.

I could not help but notice that beside this cheerful proclamation, you did not attempt to dispute the actual argument.

I'm sorry, where exactly did I arrest and prosecute you?

In the case of the article we are discussing, the owner of the AP had no legitimate leg to stand on and yet the laptop user was arrested, mainly due to the AP owner's insistence. A solid basis for civil legal action if I ever saw one (and yes the cops are also responsible for this mis-application of law).

Oh, and if you say you're using my neighbor's wireless, my next visit is his house to see if he's ok with that.

Which even if he is not, does not grant him or you any right to attempt to get me arrested and prosecuted, since as I already discussed extensively in other posts, there is no physical distinction between an "open, public" and "open, by accident" hubs. All your neighbour is entitled to is to turn on encryption or turn off his hub. See, you are already crossing the line into malicious accusations/persecution by being a nosy busybody.

So what kind of argument does yours fall into? I mean your whole post, not your example. It seems to be something like: make the other person feel stupid. What is that, analogy? emotional appeal? It certainly doesn't seem like logic, or at least not plain, simple, dry Spock logic there's a lot of implied elitism in that message.

I tend to strongly prefer the logic-style of argument. However, in a debate, I'm likely to go with whatever approach (emotional appeal, analogy, etc) seems most likely to produce the desired result--that is so long as I don't have to twist the facts into a pretzle to get there. (I'm not meaning to imply that you did that--I'm just saying that lying or over-manipulation of the facts is something I try to avoid.)

As much as I love logical arguments ("love"? "logic"?), I think they have more than their fair of weaknesses. (And I'm only going to get around to listing one of them before I go horribly far off topic. ;-) ) In general, I'm awfully leary of supposedly purely logical arguments being used in defense of or to attack purely moral stances. I mean--logically, why are you even bothering to continue to exist in a chaotic, senseless, godless universe anyway? What purely *logical* reason is there for you to even exist? May as well just end it all now since, ultimately nothing you ever do will really matter one way or the other...

I state, without actual proof, that humans are fundamentally irrational, emotional, social hairless primates. Therefore, logic will not always be the best way to sway any given hairless primate to your way of thinking. Sometimes emotional appeal will work. Sometimes a big mallet, or the threat of a big mallet to the cranium will do the trick. I personally don't like the mallet to the skull method because it offends my sensibilities (also I feel I'm more likely to be on the receiving end than the dealing end). So it goes. But speaking from a purely logical standpoint, is there anything faulty with the mallet-to-the-skull method?

Sorry I got off topic--just my primate brain wandering again like it does.

Yes, I understand that, you understand that, but what it is going to do is add fuel to the fire that "These 'big shot' scientists are resisting review of their own views when they shout we should review ours; when they do review their data, they find their base assumptions are wrong; assumptions that are used in the secular view of a godless universe. If their model is wrong when assumed right, and they assume our model is wrong, then are their godless universe assumptions also implicitly wrong?"

Well, I admit that I am ill-equipped to deal with the refutation of patent nonsense. If you have any suggestions on the matter, I'd love to hear them.

Yes, I understand that, you understand that, but what it is going to do is add fuel to the fire that "These 'big shot' scientists are resisting review of their own views when they shout we should review ours; when they do review their data, they find their base assumptions are wrong; assumptions that are used in the secular view of a godless universe. If their model is wrong when assumed right, and they assume our model is wrong, then are their godless universe assumptions also implicitly wrong?"

The Plasma Cosmology guy's view is that things like Singularities, Red Shift, the early Accelleration periods of the universe... all those are just fudged data with outright lies propping them up too. the argument is that for the last 30 years, astronomers have been ignoring 1/4th of the known fundamental forces in all of their data captures, and have written all of their formulas based on an incomplete data set. This is a view just as contrarian to modern physics as the guy who doesn't believe in the arrow of time...

No, but then you're (presumably) deliberately and maliciously causing damage. (I probably should have put that in too) If you burn my house down without trying to damage anything, I don't think you should go to prison. Pay for the damages you did, definitely, pay more in fines, sure.

If I install remote video surveilance in your bathroom, I don't take anything.

No, but you're doing it for personal gain.

If I duplicate your identity so that I can infiltrate the United States and destroy the Godless infidel, I don't take anything.

You're doing it for personal gain though.

If I burn your house, I don't take anything. If I install remote video surveilance in your bathroom, I don't take anything. If I duplicate your identity so that I can infiltrate the United States and destroy the Godless infidel, I don't take anything.

I cause trouble, sure, but not for personal gain.

Your analysis borders on the inane. The little moppet compromised enormous numbers of comptuer systems and put them in a state that people would generally acknowledge required substantial repairs or reconstuction.

Mod this guy up. And damn the godless communists like buskers, pub singers and all such fellow-travellers!

The argument that the U.S. was a "better place" is specious. Also the idea that this stuff was "long before" you or I were here is completely bogus. Much of this "god and my country" shit in schools (as well as the Confederate battle flag in state flags) was put in during the 1950's as a idiotic right-wing response to idiotic left-wing "godless" communism. Now that communism is revealed as a crock of shit, we ought to get rid of the corresponding McCarthyite bullshit that came up with it. But according to you, Jesus wants prayer in schools just as much as Osama bin Laden wants prayer in schools. Just different prayers, that's all.

People believed a lot of shit in the past that we don't believe any more, and that is called *progress*. People who oppose progress because they believe in mass delusions like Christianity can keep it in their churches on Sunday, and keep it the fuck out of my courthouses and public schools.

And the religious wars, The Crusades, were really all about capitalism, or at least the pursuit of financial gain.

until Congress starts telling us that only Godless Communists broadcast analog signals

It's Arab Terrorists now. Get with the times.

And yes, we always have been at war with Eurasia.