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A "Black Box" For Space Debris?

jonerik writes: "Space.com has this piece on engineers at El Segundo's Aerospace Corporation, who are trying to create a black box - similar to those used in civilian, commercial, and military aircraft - for satellites and other pieces of equipment bound for space, with the aim of trying to figure out why certain pieces of space debris survive reentry largely intact while others burn up in the atmosphere. The box - about the size and shape of a paperback book - would sit dormant perhaps for years and reactivate when a thermal switch senses the temperature rising, signalling reentry. 'Loaded with ultra-small sensors, including accelerometers and a Global Positioning System navigation chip, the box would record the stresses and strains on the hardware during its fall from space.'"

13 comments

  1. Why wait years by dolphin558 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Just attach microjets to the black box and propel it toward the Earth's atmosphere. that way you won't have to wait for gravity to do its work.

    1. Re:Why wait years by Fantanicity · · Score: 1

      You don't even need to do the experiment :-

      If you want to have something survive reentry then make it out of the same stuff the black box is made of.

      If you want something to burn up on reentry then make it out of not (the same stuff the black box is made of.)

    2. Re:Why wait years by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And while we're at it, propel aircraft black boxes to the ground, that way you don't have to wait for a plane crash.

      Idiot, they're interested in measuring the reentry of a typical satellite. So the question is "why not use a dummy satellite", and the answer is "because it costs $10K per kg to launch stuff".

    3. Re:Why wait years by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      (stuff the black box is made of) implies (survive reentry)

      not(stuff the black box is made of) implies not(survive reentry)


      And there I thought that "A implies B" was equivalent to "!B implies !A". Thanks for your logic lesson, your version is much simpler! If they make blackboxes out of hardened steal, I just have to construct a titanium satellite and it will burn up! So easy!

    4. Re:Why wait years by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1, Troll

      WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Federal officials captured a U.S. citizen with suspected ties to al Qaeda who allegedly planned to build and explode a radioactive "dirty bomb" in the United States, the Justice Department announced Monday.

      U.S. officials said Washington was the probable target of the plot. FBI Director Robert Mueller said the plot was in the "discussion stage" when the suspect, Abdullah Al Muhajir, was arrested. Mueller said the plot had not gone any further, to the knowledge of U.S. authorities.

      Attorney General John Ashcroft said Al Muhajir -- who was born Jose Padilla -- was captured May 8 as he flew into O'Hare International Airport in Chicago, Illinois, from Pakistan. Officials said that in the weeks before he flew to Chicago, Al Muhajir was tracked flying between Pakistan, Egypt and Switzerland.

      U.S. officials later said an "associate" of Al Muhajir had been arrested in Pakistan, prior to May 8. It wasn't clear whether this was the "associate" Ashcroft referred to when, in announcing Al Muhajir's capture, he said Al Muhajir was working with someone in Pakistan on plans to build a dirty bomb. (Full story)

      WE GIVE THEM EQUAL RIGHTS AND THIS IS HOW THEY REPAY OUR GENEROSITY!

      A dirty bomb is a conventional bomb equipped with radioactive material designed to spread over a wide area. Depending on the circumstances of the explosion, the number of deaths and injuries from a dirty bomb might not be substantially greater than from a conventional bomb explosion. But panic over radioactivity and evacuation measures could snarl a city, and the area struck would be off-limits for at least several months during cleanup efforts. (More on dirty bombs)

      Ashcroft said Al Muhajir, 31, would be treated as an "enemy combatant" of the United States, a move that means he has fewer legal rights than an ordinary defendant in a criminal case.

      President Bush signed off Sunday night on the decision to treat Al Muhajir as an enemy combatant, senior U.S. officials said, adding that the government faced a Tuesday deadline to decide whether to charge Al Muhajir in the federal court system or turn him over to the Defense Department.

      Bush accepted the recommendations of Ashcroft and Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, the officials said, and the transfer from Justice Department to Defense Department custody was made Monday morning.

      WE MUST NEVER REST UNTIL WE HAVE ELIMINATED ISLAM FROM THE PLANET!
      Suspect 'trained with the enemy'

      The Justice Department said that Al Muhajir, who was born in New York, served time in prison in the United States in the early 1990s, when he took on his new name. After his release, he traveled to Afghanistan and Pakistan and met with senior al Qaeda officials, Ashcroft said.

      "While in Afghanistan and Pakistan, Al Muhajir trained with the enemy, including studying how to wire explosive devices and researching radiological dispersion devices," Ashcroft said. "Al Qaeda officials knew that as a citizen of the United States, as a citizen of the United States holding a valid U.S. passport, Al Muhajir would be able to travel freely in the United States without drawing attention to himself."

      U.S. officials said the primary information about Al Muhajir came from Abu Zubaydah, the most senior al Qaeda figure captured by U.S. authorities.

      Al Muhajir is being held at the Consolidated Naval Brig in Charleston, South Carolina, according to Pentagon officials. They said the suspect was being held separate from the regular brig population.

      DEATH TO PAKIS! THEY ARE A LESSER SPECIES!

      "We have acted under the laws of war and under the clear Supreme Court precedent which established that the military may detain a United States citizen who has joined the enemy and has entered our country to carry out hostile acts," Ashcroft said.

      Ashcroft made the announcement in Moscow, Russia, where he is meeting with Russian officials to discuss the war on terrorism. (Read transcript)

      "To our enemies, I say we will continue to be vigilant against all threats, whether they come from overseas or at home in America," he said.

      -- National Security Correspondent David Ensor, Justice Correspondent Kelli Arena, Senior White House Correspondent John King and terrorism consultant Peter Bergen contributed to this report.

  2. In a word -- Spin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Call it spin, tumble, or chaos, an object survives if it is able to spin. This distributes what part of the object heats, and how much damage is done.

    Plus objects that spin tend to generate lift, which means drag, which means they slow down quickly after the initial entry.

    Homework: go find a 1" x 2" x 30" piece of wood. Grasp it on one end. Out of doors, throw the wood in a level plane, attempting to induce much spin in it (like a boomerang). Make the plane level, and inclined slightly up.

    When you let go, that piece of wood will start rolling and spinning, and will generate lift. It'll generate an audible hum, and toward the end of your throw, it'll stop moving forward, but the spinning and rolling will continue. The piece of wood will fall gently down to earth.

    We used to play a game of catch with a piece of wood like this in my neighborhood as kids. Some yardsticks work, but they have to be heavy enough, and need to approach being square, but to not actually be square in cross section. (So thin and winglike is bad.)

  3. what about heat? by littlerubberfeet · · Score: 1

    Size of a book? It better be the size of The Art of Computer Programming (Knuth). Most of the material would burn off. You would need to make it out of the silicon-based stuff the shuttle uses, and then reinforce it. In order to build it most efficently, it would need to be shaped like a water droplet (I forget the scientific name) as this is most aero-dynamic.

    At any rate, due to material loss by heat, then loss due to impact, why not have it separate from the craft, then transmit the data, then burn up. This would be easy, just set a 24 hiur looped recording on a certain frequency, and leave it on. If it doesn't work, its not like a chunk of charred GPS components and silicon are gonna survive any more then a radio in space would.

    --
    Sig (appended to the end of comments you post, 120 chars)
    1. Re:what about heat? by hplasm · · Score: 1

      I don't think it's meant to be aerodynamic, it's supposed to simulate space junk re-entering?

      --
      ...and he grinned, like a fox eating shit out of a wire brush.
    2. Re:what about heat? by des09 · · Score: 1

      I am not an expert, but if I recall correctly, an erratic electromagnetic field is generated around an object re-entering the atmosphere, requiring a powerfull transmitter to generate a signal that would be usefull. Another challenge would be spin.

      --
      .sigless since 2003
  4. Insightful? Not by a long shot! by JUSTONEMORELATTE · · Score: 2, Funny

    I can picture a boardroom at NASA

    Hmmmmm.... We could build on 30+ years of research from the respective space agencies of France, the (then) Soviet Union, the United States and maybe a few others, then try to collect first-hand data via a transmitting device placed in some actual orbital craft which are performing uncontrolled re-entry. We could capture and track these data to see if we could correllate certain behaviours with re-entry breakup or lack thereof.

    Or we could listen to a guy who throws sticks.

  5. Really clever by MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM · · Score: -1

    Just what we need, more debris into space. Those scientists are clever.

  6. Re:Insightful? Not by a long shot! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I know several engineers who have missed the simple answer that was staring them in the face.

    In fact any new invention is the product of oversight by all of mankind, since time began; it would not suprise me if the space geeks have overlooked the simple for a mere 55 years. It isn't such a long time. Besides mankind has been shooting satellites into orbit for 55+ years, not 30+. Even 55+ years is a drop in the bucket. After 300 years, I would be inclined to say that we might know something about space travel.

    We don't know crap about space travel despite the amount of brainpower being poured into it. We have only managed to put a man on the moon. The finer points of reentry (and just about every other aspect of space travel) are simply beyond us right now. We are babes in the woods.

    Remember Penicillin? That stared the human race in the face since time began in the form of food mold, furniture mold etc. Until 1928, no one knew how to combat bacterial infection and there were a lot of brilliant scientists in the world before Flemming figured this out, quite by accident I might add.

    Also, this might not be practical for manned spaceflight, since the g's created by spinning quickly could first knock the astronauts out, then kill them if the spinning was too fast.

    If the space geeks are so smart, why haven't they figured out why some sats burn up and not others? Seems to me if they are so smart, they wouldn't need a black box to tell them.

    I wouldn't discount the guy who throws sticks until he is proven wrong.

  7. In a word -- Ouch by Qwerpafw · · Score: 1
    Homework: go find a 1" x 2" x 30" piece of wood. Grasp it on one end. Out of doors, throw the wood in a level plane, attempting to induce much spin in it (like a boomerang). up.
    Interesting...
    When you let go, that piece of wood will start rolling and spinning, and will generate lift. It'll generate an audible hum, and toward the end of your throw, it'll stop moving forward, but the spinning and rolling will continue. The piece of wood will fall gently down to earth.
    So far, so good...
    We used to play a game of catch with a piece of wood like this in my neighborhood as kids. Some yardsticks work, but they have to be heavy enough,
    ::thinks about throwing a heavy piece of wood::

    ::thinks about heavy piece of wood flying through the air::

    ::thinks about kid standing right in the trajectory of heavy piece of wood::

    ouch!!!