Freshly Created: comp.lang.php

Agelmar writes: "A newgroup control message was sent out for comp.lang.php today. Many servers already carry the new group, and almost all servers around the globe should carry it within the next day or two. The new group is a wonderful place to turn to for support / questions regarding PHP, and is symbolic of PHP's coming to full power, finally entering the comp.lang.* hierarchy with the rest of the mature languages. (For those who are interested, the new group passed 177-11.) Feel free to drop by the new group, and stick around!"

Comments

Sad news ... Gene Kan dead at 25

[Anonymous Coward]

I just heard some sad news on talk radio - Gnutella writer Gene Kan was found dead in his Maine home this morning. There weren't any more details. I'm sure everyone in the Slashdot community will miss him - even if you didn't enjoy his work, there's no denying his contributions to popular culture. Truly an American icon.

php rocks!

[Anonymous Coward]

cool, php rocks

PHP sucks

[Anomolous Cow Herd]

For those of you hunting to an even uglier alternative to Perl, you'll find a friend in PHP. From the awkward string manipulation routines (who the fuck would want to use C-like functions to manipulate strings in a scripting lanugage?) to the horrendously crappy object oriented programming model, PHP has everything that nobody wants or needs in a language. Hell, you can even embed Perl in HTML pages these days in the same manner.

So, to recap, folks, PHP is...

• Prone to security holes and misc. bugs
• An awful pain to program
• Slow as a dog, even in it's intended "niche" use as a web scripting language. Anyone intending to do something serious with a website would use Servlets or at least mod_perl.

Re:PHP sucks

[Anonymous Coward]

But at least it doesn't take 10 seconds to load the first time, like ASPX pages.

Atleast, Spam for PHP users too

[Bouncings]

Finally, PHP users can enjoy the benefits of usenet. Unmoderated trolls, spam, and email harvesting. Oh, and let's not forget the php vs perl vs iMac flame wars. Yeehaw!

Newsgroups, for newbies?

[ObviousGuy]

Anyone who has stumbled into the comp.lang.perl.misc newsgroup and asked a question that was covered in the FAQ knows firsthand how a newsgroup can be when it comes to servicing newbies. Does the PHP culture have a more inclusive bent and willingness to answer the same questions over and over than Perl?

Re:Newsgroups, for newbies?

[Agelmar]

Actually, yes, I think the Usenet PHP culture does have a more inclusive attitude. In alt.php, the whole "Help, I upgraded to PHP 4.2.x and now my script doesn't work because I didn't read the release notes which clearly state that Register_globals is off by default" does get a bit old, but the question gets answered every time. With that one possible exception, the alt.php / alt.comp.lang.php groups are extremely friendly to new users, willing to go over people's code to find problems / suggest improvements, and the likes. While I would not say that we yern for a flood of newbie posts and Regiser_global posts, I would like to think that the PHP-Usenet community is friendly and willing to help people at all levels of PHP-proficiency.

Re:Newsgroups, for newbies?

[Anonymous Coward]

• Does the PHP culture have a more inclusive bent and willingness to answer the same questions over and over than Perl?

Ack, another one? Read the damn FAQ!

Re:Newsgroups, for newbies?

[Anonymous Coward]

They do seem to be a bit more inclusive, but they also are not as good. :(

Re:Newsgroups, for newbies?

[Lips]

Interestingly I find this to be the attitude of a lot of open source d00ds (maybe its the d00ds that are the problem). You ask what you think is a reasonable question and people call you an idiot. And yet people say how great the "community support" is. Until this sort of behaviour changes, open source will have no hope in getting into average users's homes. Imagine an NT admin wanting to discuss things, just to get an idea as to what this open source is about and being made to feel 2 inches tall. Thats not how you win mindshare.

Why FreeBSD is dying by poopbot

[Anonymous Coward]

The End of FreeBSD

[ed. note: in the following text, former FreeBSD developer Mike Smith gives his reasons for abandoning FreeBSD]

When I stood for election to the FreeBSD core team nearly two years ago, many of you will recall that it was after a long series of debates during which I maintained that too much organisation, too many rules and too much formality would be a bad thing for the project.

Today, as I read the latest discussions on the future of the FreeBSD project, I see the same problem; a few new faces and many of the old going over the same tired arguments and suggesting variations on the same worthless schemes. Frankly I'm sick of it.

FreeBSD used to be fun. It used to be about doing things the right way. It used to be something that you could sink your teeth into when the mundane chores of programming for a living got you down. It was something cool and exciting; a way to spend your spare time on an endeavour you loved that was at the same time wholesome and worthwhile.

It's not anymore. It's about bylaws and committees and reports and milestones, telling others what to do and doing what you're told. It's about who can rant the longest or shout the loudest or mislead the most people into a bloc in order to legitimise doing what they think is best. Individuals notwithstanding, the project as a whole has lost track of where it's going, and has instead become obsessed with process and mechanics.

So I'm leaving core. I don't want to feel like I should be "doing something" about a project that has lost interest in having something done for it. I don't have the energy to fight what has clearly become a losing battle; I have a life to live and a job to keep, and I won't achieve any of the goals I personally consider worthwhile if I remain obligated to care for the project.

Discussion

I'm sure that I've offended some people already; I'm sure that by the time I'm done here, I'll have offended more. If you feel a need to play to the crowd in your replies rather than make a sincere effort to address the problems I'm discussing here, please do us the courtesy of playing your politics openly.

From a technical perspective, the project faces a set of challenges that significantly outstrips our ability to deliver. Some of the resources that we need to address these challenges are tied up in the fruitless metadiscussions that have raged since we made the mistake of electing officers. Others have left in disgust, or been driven out by the culture of abuse and distraction that has grown up since then. More may well remain available to recruitment, but while the project is busy infighting our chances for successful outreach are sorely diminished.

There's no simple solution to this. For the project to move forward, one or the other of the warring philosophies must win out; either the project returns to its laid-back roots and gets on with the work, or it transforms into a super-organised engineering project and executes a brilliant plan to deliver what, ultimately, we all know we want.

Whatever path is chosen, whatever balance is struck, the choosing and the striking are the important parts. The current indecision and endless conflict are incompatible with any sort of progress.

Trying to dissect the above is far beyond the scope of any parting shot, no matter how distended. All I can really ask of you all is to let go of the minutiae for a moment and take a look at the big picture. What is the ultimate goal here? How can we get there with as little overhead as possible? How would you like to be treated by your fellow travellers?

Shouts

To the Slashdot "BSD is dying" crowd - big deal. Death is part of the cycle; take a look at your soft, pallid bodies and consider that right this very moment, parts of you are dying. See? It's not so bad.

To the bulk of the FreeBSD committerbase and the developer community at large - keep your eyes on the real goals. It's when you get distracted by the politickers that they sideline you. The tireless work that you perform keeping the system clean and building is what provides the platform for the obsessives and the prima donnas to have their moments in the sun. In the end, we need you all; in order to go forwards we must first avoid going backwards.

To the paranoid conspiracy theorists - yes, I work for Apple too. No, my resignation wasn't on Steve's direct orders, or in any way related to work I'm doing, may do, may not do, or indeed what was in the tea I had at lunchtime today. It's about real problems that the project faces, real problems that the project has brought upon itself. You can't escape them by inventing excuses about outside influence, the problem stems from within.

To the politically obsessed - give it a break, if you can. No, the project isn't a lemonade stand anymore, but it's not a world-spanning corporate juggernaut either and some of the more grandiose visions going around are in need of a solid dose of reality. Keep it simple, stupid.

To the grandstanders, the prima donnas, and anyone that thinks that they can hold the project to ransom for their own agenda - give it a break, if you can. When the current core were elected, we took a conscious stand against vigorous sanctions, and some of you have exploited that. A new core is going to have to decide whether to repeat this mistake or get tough. I hope they learn from our errors.

Future

I started work on FreeBSD because it was fun. If I'm going to continue, it has to be fun again. There are things I still feel obligated to do, and with any luck I'll find the time to meet those obligations.

However I don't feel an obligation to get involved in the political mess the project is in right now. I tried, I burnt out. I don't feel that my efforts were worthwhile. So I won't be standing for election, I won't be shouting from the sidelines, and I probably won't vote in the next round of ballots.

You could say I'm packing up my toys. I'm not going home just yet, but I'm not going to play unless you can work out how to make the project somewhere fun to be again.

= Mike

--

To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. -- Theodore Roosevelt

- Trolling /. since 7/8/02

'The new group is a wonderful place . . .'?

[Mordant]

Um, since it's a -new- group, how the hell do you know that?

Only 188 ballots?

[afabbro]

Only 188 votes? Only 11 'no' votes?

I admit it's been a while since I participated in the whole RFC->CFV process but four or five years ago, votes were much bigger. Heck, I think the hardcore of "always vote no" voters - who felt that by voting no they raised the bar - was more than 188.

Again prefacing by noting my ignorance of recent USENET trends, I ask: is USENET getting smaller? More traffic on web-site bulletin boards and less on USENET?

Re:Only 188 ballots?

[isorox]

Up until about '98/'99 I was an avid follower of quite a few news groups, particularly uk.media.tv.sf.startrek. Not anymore - theres more ontopic posts on buliten boards now, as the number of net newbies increases.

Having said that, my dad used to post regularly to several travel newsgroups via deja and later google - mainly because of the lack of decent discussion bars. Now of course he runs his own bar for 17 hours a day in the summer, so doesnt have time.

Most new people dont know about usenet though, and most old timers migrate away, hence dwindling population.

This is all excluding spam of course!

Re:Only 188 ballots?

[/dev/trash]

What killed USENET for me was the fact that of the 4 local ISP's I had to chose from, not one had USENET servers, sure I could do the deja or google route, but why bother?

other groups

[Anonymous Coward]

So how long until we see comp.lang.c-hash? Or is it goint to be comp.lang.c-pound? comp.lang.c-oglethorpe maybe??

Re:other groups

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude, you're so clever. Look at that! You thought of some really clever slights on C#! Keep up the good work!

I can't write so much, I've got to get back to programming Coffee, I mean, Drip, I mean, Joe... No, I really mean Java. Hahaha. I'm almost as funny as you! I never could be as funny, though. You're the master.

I love you, man!

Re:other groups

[isorox]

It'd be c-hash. c-pound would be "c£"

Re:other groups

[CiaranMc]

It'd be c-sharp, presumably.

That being the name of the language and all.

Re:other groups

[J'raxis]

The # symbol has a multitude of names, including:

• Hash
• Pound
• Number [sign]
• Sharp
• Crosshatch
• Octothorpe

Of course, as noted above, the newsgroup would be called C-Sharp since that's what the language is called; however, the symbol itself can be called a pound sign.

Re:other groups

[ceej]

Really? I always pronounced it "uh hash uv java".

usenet is dead

[Innomi]

The spam has long since killed it.

Re:usenet is dead

[Anonymous Coward]

Only the big eight. at.* and de.* are running quite OK, with hardly any spam.

Why when there are much better resources out there

[Phil John]

Dev-shed forums are still where I go for my PHP questions or to browse and post answers...it's a nice moderated forum and a lot more friendly than usenet, abusive users can be banned by moderators.

I used to usenet but not anymore...it's just too anarchic for my tastes...

I've also seen hardly any newbie bashing on dev-shed, the reason? Only people who really want to get/respond to answers seem to frequent the forums...whereas anyone with a chip on his/her shoulder can stumble upon a usenet group...*sigh*...

Maybe it's just that the PHP community is just plain nicer than others... ;o)

or it's really called

[Anonymous Coward]

shove it up your ass you M$ loving, Bill Gates cock sucking, monkey Ballmer anus licking, little shitbag. Fuck you, fuck the .NET, and fuck their little Java ripoff language.

to be honest

[Anonymous Coward]

It takes 10 seconds the first time, and then it's compiled and cached after that, and runs faster than a PHP page. So you see, people who program real world applications, you know, not just your little homepage running off you Lee-Nucks box attached to your little dialup connection, people who do real programming that matters, they accept the initial 10 second load time for stability and performance in the long run. Go to school now; once you complete 8th grade, you can go to high school and wear big boy pants.

Re:to be honest

[Anonymous Coward]

So use a PHP caching product, like PHP Accelerator and your PHP will run even faster.

Re:to be honest

[King of the World]

they accept the initial 10 second load time for stability and performance in the long run

Er, you don't gain performance or stability.

Wow.

[bellings]

Wow. There sure are a lot of useful comments posted in reply to this article. I'm glad I'm on Slashdot, where all the smart people are.

I'd love to check it out but.....

[Anonymous Coward]

Does any one know a good free NNTP server./
I've tried a few before but there either down all the time or not great.

missing, of couse, the other advantage

[Anonymous Coward]

Which is using a unified framework, that is logically structured, and runs in a secured, garbage collected engironment.
You see, PHP is a mess. Its flat namespaces are a disaster, its "object oriented" programming features are a thing to be avoided at all costs; it's cruft upon cruft. Effective, yes, sort of. But if you're doing real programming, you want to use real tools, not the ugly little hack job that is PHP.

Re:missing, of couse, the other advantage

[Anonymous Coward]

True dat.

OO gets better with the betas in use now. They scrapped lots of the old engine.

Re:missing, of couse, the other advantage

[Tablizer]

(* PHP is a mess. Its flat namespaces are a disaster *)

What do you mean? What is an example?

(* its "object oriented" programming features are a thing to be avoided at all costs *)

Some programmers don't believe in OO. Unless you have some solid evidence that it is objectively better, you should respect that some people just don't like OO and see no benefit in it. OO is like an inkblot: different people see different things in it.

I have complaints about PHP also, but not those. My list includes:

- No named parameters

- Too many functions that do nearly the same thing
(should have used option parameters or named parameters for things like case-sensativity differences.)

- Granularity of error/warning reporting too course. I want to control individual features rather than just a "level".

- Regional-level vars without using a "Global" qualifer. (This one is controversial. I can see both sides of the argument.)

PHP and named parameters

[Tablizer]

Can anybody tell me why PHP does not have named parameters?

Why would that be low on the wish-lists?

Fast versus Good

[Tablizer]

(* It takes 10 seconds the first time, and then it's compiled and cached after that, and runs faster than a PHP page. So you see, people who program real world applications, you know, not just your little homepage running off you Lee-Nucks box attached to your little dialup connection, people who do real programming that matters, they accept the initial 10 second load time for stability and performance in the long run. *)

Why do you associate "real programmers" with making *fast* applications? Speed is not always the driving factor, especially on intranets and some B-to-B.

Sometimes you want complexity, sometimes you want speed, and sometimes you want both.

I agree that PHP would probably not be the best bet for say e-bay, but just because it is not good for e-bay does not mean it is a poor choice for other things.

One-size-does-not-fit-all. Viva Choice!

A 10-second delay sounds annoying for development. Too bad they could not make it interpreted for development, and then a compile for the final product. Microsoft has the money for both.

(Microsoft stuff stable? Bwaaaaa haa haaaa ha!)

for example

[Anonymous Coward]

Say I'm using mysql. I call one of the mysql_xxx functions. But to use, say, SQL Server (blech!) I use a mssql_xxx. But I don't import a new package or anything. Everything is just sitting there in one ugly mass of shit. At least do something pragmatic and provide a kind of library import system for these things. there's just too much crap there by default.

Re:for example

[Tablizer]

(* Say I'm using mysql. I call one of the mysql_xxx functions. But to use, say, SQL Server (blech!) I use a mssql_xxx. But I don't import a new package or anything. Everything is just sitting there in one ugly mass of shit. At least do something pragmatic and provide a kind of library import system for these things. there's just too much crap there by default. *)

I am not sure exactly what your complaint is. Calling it a "big ugly mess" is not conveying much. I think Java's API's are a "big ugly mess".

I don't like the database API's either. But, you can wrap them any way you want. (If PHP had named parameters, it would be easier IMO.)

It had to happen.

[blair1q]

Imminent death of Usenet predicted.

--Blair
"Dont' worry. It'll outlive the Dow."

hm.

[David E. Smith]

Is there such a thing as degrees of Slashdot? (Kinda like that old "degrees of Kevin Bacon" thing.) I don't think I've ever been Slashdotted, but the linked article was written by me (as votetaker), so is that like two degrees from Slashdot?

Re:hm.

[Anonymous Coward]

No, faggot.

[Horny Smurf] Hemos pops his ass-cherrry

[Anonymous Coward]

Tonight way going to be awesome. I just got home from work, took a shower, and now i was putting on my favorite outfit! It was Friday night and no one was going to stop me from having a good time tonight. I met up with some of my friends at a gas station down the street. We decided to hit a few clubs, then afterwards, if we didnt hook up with anyone, we were going to go to our favorite bar "Shouters". We had the whole night planned out. We were planning to be feeling the effects of tonight until late sunday evening, hopefully not monday when we all had to go back to work. So we all jumped in the cars and drove over to the strip. We went into a few clubs. danced with a few woman, but the clubs just were not jumpin tonight for some reason. We all began to grow bored of dancing and the loud music, so we all decided to go over to Shouters earlier then what we were planning. We started off with a few beers, then we all just said fuck it, and started ordering the hard shit. After a few shots, and a lot more drinks, I was completely waisted! My friends were not as messed up as i was. So i was sittin there for a while and this dude walks in. He walks right behind me and some how he hit me in the back of the head. I didnt know or care if it was accidental, but I jumped up and started to beat the shit out of this guy. My friend all pulled me off of him and the bartender told me to get the hell out of his bar! I told my friends to stay there and finish there drinks. I would be outside waiting for them. I had to piss so bad, and the only place that was open at that time around there was the bar, and since i couldnt go back in there, i had to look for a place outside. I saw an alley on the side of the building, and decided that I should just go into the alley and do my business. So i unzip my mants, pulled out my dick and proceeded to take a piss right there in the alley. After a few seconds i could hear foot steps behind me. "Hey you know you can get arrested for that!" I heard the voice say. "Fuck off" i told him, and kept going. The footsteps got closer, and as i turned to look, i could see that this guy was huge. about 6'5" 260lbs of hard muscle! I squeezed out the last few drops of piss and the guy grabbed my arms and held them tightly behind me. "

What the hell are you doin!" He grabbed my dick. "Here let me shake it for ya" He dragged me further down the alley. I was trying to yell for help, but it was now use, He put his huge hand over my mouth. No one could hear me. He took me inside a door that led into a room with an old mattress laying on the floor. I was terrified! I didnt know what this guy was going to do with me. He took out some handcuffs and cuffed me to some poles that were on the wall. I was laying on the mattress with my hands cuffed to a pole. I was thinking that maybe he was some weirdo that wanted to torture me! I started to sweat profusely. He came over to me and told me to shut the fuck up. He gagged me so i couldnt yell or say anything. He started to pull my jeans off. Then he slid my boxers off. He walked over to a table and grabbed a pare of scissors. I was terrified. I thought this guy was about to cut my dick off. I tried to scream and yell, but it was no use, the gag was doing its job. No one could hear me. I sighed as he brought the scissors closer and he started to cut my shirt. I had never been so relieved in my life. He cut my shirt off, and i was laying there on the old matress completely nude, gagged and bound to the poles on the wall. He started to take his clothes off. He was completely naked. His body was well muscled, with very light hair on his chest and stomach. His dick was huge! the biggest i had ever seen before!! It was as big around as a beer can and about 7" long, and it wasnt even hard yet! He started to play with himself, attempting to get himself hard i suppose. I saw this thing grow into a fucking monster! It was about a foot long, if not longer, and this thing was so thick!!! He walked over to me and flipped me onto my stomach. I saw him reach for a bottle of something, but i couldnt make out what it was. I felt something wet and cold drizzling onto my ass. He grabbed my ass and spread me wide open. He started to rub this stuff all over my asshole. I almost started to cry as i had figured he was going to stick his huge cock in my ass!!! I was so terrified i think that my pubes where turning grey! I felt his fingers rubbing my ass. All of a sudden i just started getting all these emotions and feeling that i had never had before! I mean sure i have thought about being with another guy before, but what guy hasnt. So as i was laying there with him completely in control, I started to get very aroused. I couldnt believe what was happening.

This guy was about to rape me and i was enjoying it! As he rubbed my asshole i just gave in to the pleasure. My cock started to grow and i pushed my ass upward more so i could get my ass open a little more. Then it happened, he plunged one of his fingers into my ass. Oh my it felt amazing. The feeling was indescribable. I started to moan and buck my ass up and down. Then i felt another finger violate my rectum. I figured that he was loosening me up for his huge pecker. Then he pulled out, and i felt it! It huge cock was at the entrance to my pink virgin bung! I felt him thrust his hips forward, and with one single push the head of his cock was inside of me. The pain was so immense, i thought that he had to of done some major damage to my ass. Then he pushed it all the way in. I started to buck and wiggle my body. it hurt so bad that i had tears running down my face. the pain was immense! Just try shoving a bear can up your virgin ass and tell me how it feels. As this guy was violating my rectum, all i could think about was how hot i was getting. My lust was overriding the pain. It started to feel so amazing having his huge prick inside of me. I couldnt believe what was happening. Oh my god, i had never in my entire life felt something as good as this huge dick being plunged deep into my ass. Then he pulled out. He turned me on my back and saw how hard i was. He asked me if i was enjoying him fucking me like a bitch!. I told him that i was and he knelt down in between my legs. He took my 8" cock into his mouth and began to suck it like a pro! as he was sucking me he was ramming his finger in my ass. I started to moan. It felt so good to have another man sucking me. I started to cum like i had never came before. He just kept his mouth right over my cock and took every bit of my seed into his mouth. he pushed himself up with his massive arms and took the gag from my mouth. He leaned his face towards me and began to stick his tongue in my mouth.

My cum was still in his mouth. the taste was incredible. this was the first time that i had ever in my life tasted cum. I had never even thought about it before. As many times as i had the chance to do it before, i just never though about doing it. But i loved every minute of it. I savored the taste of my cum and his tongue in my mouth. I felt chills going up and down my spine as this fucking hunk had his tongue rammed down my throat. The he grabbed my legs and threw them over his shoulders. He spread my ass again and inserted his huge piece of meat! I moaned and gasped as he shoved it back into my warm man hole. Oh it felt so good. I told him to fuck me like the little bitch that i was. Fuck me until you fill my ass full of your white creamy jism!! He started to fuck me so hard. It was amazing. He started to jerk me off as he was fucking me. Just a few jerks and i was cumming again. All over his stomach and chest. my cum was flying everywhere. I had never came like this before.

This was the best sex i had ever had in my life! I saw his face turn bright red, and his body began to shake. He let out a huge gasp and then he moaned so loud. He must have squirted a fucking gallon of cum into my ass. He was jerking for what seemed like 2 minutes straight, when he finally finished he dropped over on top of me and told me that it was the best he had ever had!. He told me how tight i was and how he loved ripping me open!. I told him that it was the best fucking sex i had ever had. He said that he didnt want me to have any hard feelings. it was just that he liked what he saw, and he takes what he likes. I told him that it wasnt a problem, after all. How can you rape the willing?......