Science Attacks The Mystery Of Tylenol

nm1m writes "For decades, millions of physicians have advised their patients to take acetaminophen - the drug behind "aspirin-free" pain relievers like Tylenol - without understanding how or why the popular medicine works. Now, a professor at Brigham Young University has discovered what could be the enzyme the drug attacks to relieve pain."

Comments

That's a bit disconcerting

[Cecil]

That they didn't really know what this drug was doing... mind you I guess that's what most drugs do.

It just kind of underlines how little we know about the human body and the chemicals that operate it.

Re:That's a bit disconcerting

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, but those high priests of arrogance, the doctors and university-cults that pop up around them, don't want you to think like that.

You should be in your proper place, ie worshipping the amazing university graduates and bowing before the Amazing Master's Degree and the Fabulous PhD.

Re:That's a bit disconcerting

[Anonymous Coward]

Fuck you're a moron. I bet your major advisor told you that too, just before you were kicked out of university for being a moron.

But you just blame your stupidity on other people. Nothing is EVER your fault. Fuck. Idiot.

Re:That's a bit disconcerting

[Anonymous Coward]

Hm, you're good at blaming something on ME, though. What's your problem? I've never set foot in a university. I just see what it's worth in our society. Not too much.

Everything people 'learn' at those churches hits the garbage can when the graduation is over and the real world comes knocing at the door. Suddenly, it's the people who play golf/sleep with their bosses, suck cock like a gay Olympics village or who master time-honored techniques of intimidation that succeed.

It looks like the only reason you need a degree to get a decent job these days is because the person hiring has a degree and doesn't want to admit that you don't need a degree for the job and that it was a waste of time and money.

If you decide to stay in university to work, the back stabbing among academics makes the job market look like a bunch of fuzzy pink bunnies surrounded by candy canes and lollypops. If you're not gay at the beginning, you will be after the ass reamings and cock suckings you'll endure to get that job and keeping it.

"Research"? Clever ways of sucking money out of the institution so you can avoid the real world. Dubious value in most cases.

Job market? It's workfare for university graduates. If we had a society where only the things that needed to be done were done, you'd have 90% unemployment overnight. I'm all for that, but most people are so brainwashed by the "study-get in debt-get a job to pay that debt-must have a career-must study more to climb" cycle that they wouldn't know what to do with their time.

How many young graduates of electrical engineering do you know, kind sir? Have you spoken to them? When they start, they honestly believe they'll make a difference, design amazing stuff, work with the latest tools.

When the real world hits, I've SEEN THEM *CRY* like babies because their jobs are so mindless it's insulting. Example, "Integration", basically a department that makes sure the boxes from the other department fit inside the cabinets. If you tape bananas to the wires, a monkey can do that. But you *need* a Bachelor's for that! Imagine if only the actual qualifications for the job were all that's required. Who would need all the univerisities, who would employ those teachers, how would the textbook companies survive, how can employers get docile employees if they aren't in debt and 'hooked' on the career/university cult?

Universities and overblown job descriptions are the key to keeping an antiquated capitalist system going in a technological society.

PS: I only have a high school degree but I've kicked so many engineer's asses I need new shoes. This is why I have such antipathy towards universities. Why do people who've never had an interest in electronics flip a coin after college and become 'engineers' in 4 years, when people like me who haven't been lucky in life but started at 12 in electronics, and I know tubes to FPGAs from ACTUAL *GASP* experience, get limited?

Why am I wasting my time? Go polish your degree or something. Don't forget to pay that student loan!

Oh, and when your boss looks down at you when he drops his pants, just smile and wiggle your ass. You'll get that parking spot near the employee's entrance.

Fag.

Re:That's a bit disconcerting

[Henry V .009]

I worship you with my plus+2 posting bonus.

Re:That's a bit disconcerting

[codeButcher]

A friend used to say:

Doctors who know little put chemicals about which they know less into our bodies about which they know nothing at all.

Oh, BTW, he's a vet.... I have much respect for someone who can succesfully treat patients who have all sorts of different physiologies, can't talk to tell what's bothering them, but instead aren't shy to use their teeth, beaks, horns and claws.

Re:That's a bit disconcerting

[rakslice]

You sound pretty bitter. Now, of course, you could just be letting off steam here, and at work you're the most focused level-headed person around; if so, great. It's just that "I've kicked so many engineer's asses I need new shoes" doesn't really suggest that, and when it comes down to it, that doesn't really cut it as a reason to have antipathy toward universities. I mean, grads from one kind of program, and an applied program at that (when it's pretty common knowledge that universities do theoretical programs best and applied ones horribly)? I don't think so.

I'd wager that your lack of a degree isn't holding you back unfairly nearly as much as your apparent attitude problem is. Generally there's nothing worse than an employee with a huge chip on their shoulder (typically, refusing to ask for help when they need it, arguing with other employees and being uncooperative, and otherwise trying to prove themselves at the expense of just doing the job).

Yes, it's often assumed by those hiring for technical positions that a college/university degree education is more comprehensive than it actually is, and so people without degrees are getting the short end of the stick. This really pisses you off; I can relate. But that's between you and employers who make bad hiring decisions. There's no reason to take it out on people with degrees. You may want to lose the chip, and use the effort you're spending stabbing at windmills doing something more productive.

And, as for your comments about the uselessness of a degree eductation in general, most of it is just posturing. For example, in the same way that simply going through a CS degree program doesn't make you a decent programmer, no amount of on-the-job experience can make you good at evaluating and selecting complex algorithms if you don't have the math background to do the runtime analysis properly.

Anyway, back to(ward) the topic... I have an armchair interest in the philosophy of science. And, everyone I know in biological/medical sciences, who I remember talking to about it, would agree that we know very little about the functioning of the human body when it comes right down to it, and more importantly (since we were talking about research in to the action of pain killers) embraces the scientific process as a useful tool. So, I have to wonder how you've decided that the opposite view is predominant in the academic community, having never set foot in a university as you say. Is it pure speculation? Paranoia? I can't really tell.

Re:That's a bit disconcerting

[Anonymous Coward]

"You sound pretty bitter."

There's nothing worse than an idealist with crushed dreams, I tell people. I'm more bitter than the concentrate of a year's harvest of lemons in a drop.

"I'd wager that your lack of a degree isn't holding you back unfairly nearly...just doing the job)."

Nonsense. There's a very real, thick Lexan ceiling out there. I've seen people that would have been useless in society a hundred years ago 'make it big' because they have pretty-boy hair and a degree. Nothing else. Period.

"But that's between you and employers who make bad hiring decisions"

Hey, it's every one of them. They've bought into the cult.

"There's no reason to take it out on people with degrees"

Why not? If you're not part of the solution, bla bla bla. The more people get degrees to do simple jobs, the higher the bar is for everyone else. It's inexorable. The day WILL come when the guy who sweeps the aisles at Home Depot will need a Master's in 'Management of Unwanted Ground-Bound Resources' to make 7.50$ an hour.
It's all part of the 'rich get richer' spiral society is in.

"no amount of on-the-job experience can make you good at evaluating and selecting complex algorithms if you don't have the math background to do the runtime analysis properly."

Ok, I agree. Now how dare you assume that the math knowledge CAN ONLY COME FROM A UNIVERSITY? It's like I tell people, "What, do books only work insisde a school?" If so, what's the point of libraries and book stores? Sure, we need some sort of certification or evaluation of these skills. What's the solution? It used to be universities, but not the way it's done today.

"And, everyone I know in biological/medical sciences, who I remember talking to about it, would agree that we know very little about the functioning of the human body when it comes right down to it"

Good. So maybe there's hope? Certainly doctors don't do much to encourage that view once they're in practice. Maybe it's because people are stupid and want absolute answers. Maybe if more people went to university the world would be a better place. So why is it so damn expensive and long? Hint: everybody is pretty happy with the way world is now.

"You may want to lose the chip, and use the effort you're spending stabbing at windmills doing something more productive."

Fine, you pay for it, and I'll get a degree! Deal? Didn't think so. Before you reply, consider this: I make 50k$ a year, canadian. It would take 4 years to get a bachelor's. Now, I'd lose 200k$ of earned revenue right there. I'm not going to live in a fucking shoe box with communal showers surrounded by 20 year olds who get everything paid by their parents, so I need to stay in my current apartment. That's 17k$ rent in 4 years. Add in food, utilities, clothes (I'll need lots shoes, remember?), tuition, books, and I'm out at least a quarter million $. The extra 10k$ a year (5k$ after taxes, Oh Canada!) that I *might* get after the degree is going to really suck to try to recoup that quarter million. I'd need to work 50 years just to break even, not including lost interest, I won't live that long.

Before you say I'm obssessed with money, my answer is: everyone else is obssessed with money. I have to live in this society. Their rules, not mine.

Basically, my problem is the outdated capitalist system in our technological society. If everything was free, I'd be in school. After a while, I'd do something else. Pretty simple, I think. But then the current power structure would be as obsolete as a vaccum-tube 8 track player on a quadraphonic system.

Re:That's a bit disconcerting

[pnutjam]

Hell yeah it's scary. Drug companies don't know shit about the drugs their dispensing.
Those zoloft commercials really get me
Although the way Zoloft works for depression, panic disorder, OCD, and PTSD is not completely understood, what is understood is that Zoloft is a medicine that helps correct the chemical imbalance of serotonin in the brain.
translation "We don't know what the fuck this drug really does, but buy it so we can make lots of money. Also try to get the government to pay for it, especially for old people. Everybody over 50 is entitled to all the money you will ever make, you aren't worth shit!!
oops a little off topic there...
anyway, they don't know what drugs do, they just know that for some people they sometimes fix this, but they also cause hair loss, constipation, nausea, sudden death, whatever "side affect" your favorite drug maker downplays.

In closing, don't do drug...Just say NO!

Re:That's a bit disconcerting

[geoswan]

I have much respect for someone who can succesfully treat patients who have all sorts of different physiologies, can't talk to tell what's bothering them, but instead aren't shy to use their teeth, beaks, horns and claws.

A vet goes to their doc, and gets impatient with all the questions.

"What is it with you MDs? What is with all the questions? I don't have to ask my patients a bunch of questions! Am I a better diagnostician than you are?

"OK" says the doc. "We'll try it your way." So the MD does all the physical stuff. Temperature, blood pressure, reflexes, and so on.

Then they write out a prescription. "I want you to talk two of these a day, for ten days."

"But I'm afraid, if that doesn't work, we'll have to have you put down ."

Re:That's a bit disconcerting

[Anonymous Coward]

Education is what you get out of it. I will agree with you that 90% of those in college right now are not learning anything. Many of the students cram for tests by staying up 24+ hours and showing up tired - MD candidates included. The problem with education today is that tests are no longer accurate measures of what has been learned.

I was probably the only student who did not stay up and study for any test. I actually slept in the day or 2 before any test. Midterms were like pop quizes to me since I never knew when they were, but I always aced them because I was learning all the while. While I retained most of my knowledge by learning all the time, the rest of the students crammed for the all important tests and had no clue about what they were tested on later. Later, if you asked them a question about a problem related to what they crammed, they would not be able to solve the problem.

College is not really a place that everyone should be going. 90% of the students in college should go to a trade school like DeVry, where the "students" are just taught a trade or skill, but not taught to learn. College is supposed to be a place to learn to think, but many of the students who are accepted to college are no longer thinkers. The ability to think has been driven out by the poor education in this country.

When you hear people talk about college today, they talk about the better jobs that you will get if you can graduate from college. College=Money is all the rage. The bulk of the students in college choose their major based on what they perceive the job market to be. It is now rare to see someone choose a major based on where their passions lie. This allows for second rate education because a educator can no longer really properly teach studento. Education has fallen to the lowest common denominator problem.

Grades are another problem. An A grade does not mean a whole lot in American shools. A's are relatively easy to get. F's on the other hand require much more effort. You have to be really dumb or have to really try to get an F. B's and C's are easy to get even if you don't do any homework. Tests are the all determining factor in grades. Tests elementary school train students to cram. Cramming for usually means that nothing is really learned or retained. This really leads to colleges being a non-educational environment.

What we really need is some sort of reform for college or education in general. I really like to learn new things. I was was the student who made sure all my experiments were performed accurately, while other students would look up old experiments and "fudge" the test results to be more in tune with what was expected so that they can get out sooner. In high school, I finished my chemistry labs before everyone else and went on to help everyone else in their experiments because I wanted to learn how the rest of the experiments worked. I learned a lot that way. I also had the highest final exam score because I was learning by helping everyone else. The problem with many schools is that school has become a chore and students don't want to learn if it's a chore. Everyone would learn better if learning was fun.

Re:That's a bit disconcerting

[rakslice]

>>(5k$ after taxes, Oh Canada!)
Ah, you're Canadian. I can stop saying college/university now. =) [For those outside the loop, this is because all degree-granting institutions in Canada are universities... Those that are strictly colleges only give diplomas.]

>>Ok, I agree. Now how dare you assume that the math knowledge CAN ONLY COME FROM A UNIVERSITY?

I'm not assuming that. I'm only assuming that most people aren't up to learning material that complicated (e.g. a good half a term course worth of graph theory with enough concentration on inductive proofs to really be useful for design), on their own, when most people going through a degree program have serious trouble with it, even with the help available from profs, tutors, and other students. And I don't mean to suggest that a degree program is the only way to learn this kind of thing even in an educational setting; dome 2 yr. cet/cis/mis diploma programs get to that level of complexity, and in any case employers will often (well, they should, anyway) pay for specialized training to fill important gaps in their employees' knowledge. All I mean to point out is that at least some of the things learned in a degree program that aren't learned often in shorter programs or through experience are actually useful.

Back for more later, perhaps.

How Tylenol Works?

[Locke!Erasmus]

I had always thought that headaches were caused by tension in the muscles around the skull. I had also assumed that Tylenol relieved the pain by relaxing those muscles or helping to dissipate the stress. I guess it was something my mom had said when she was in nursing school. It is interesting how little we understand about ourselves. I wonder what other drugs are out there that are frequently prescribed, and about which doctors either don't understand how they work or don't fully understand the effects.

Re:How Tylenol Works?

[damien_kane]

Well considering a lot of the drugs that fall under the 'controlled substance' category used to be recommended by doctors, I'm guessing a lot.
Cocaine was a cure-all up until the late 1800s, PCP and ketamine were used as anaesthetics until the 60s/70s.
Morphine is still widely prescribed, and I'm pretty sure the doctors don't know too much about it except that its really addictive and it really works (until you develop a tolerance, as is the case with any drug).
Hell, even ritalyn is still widely used, and considering it affects everyone differently (could be an upper, could be a downer, who knows until you try it right?)
I'm guessing many of the original drugs currently on the North American market are only there today because of something akin to a 'grandfather clause'.
I'm sure if it had gone through the 'rigorous' testing todays pharmaceutical companies had to go through to get a drug past the FDA, it would not have made it.

Bear in mind I am not a pharmaceutical chemist and this post did not come out of any textbooks, instead from various sources (some you may feel are questionable) like Discovery channel and my own research into some of the things I have taken over the years. If I'm wrong, correct me so I don't make the same mistake again.

Re:How Tylenol Works?

[Locke!Erasmus]

Those are some interesting ideas.

Regarding morphine in particular, I have read in a couple of places that the more pain a patient is in, the more of morphine and other pain relievers they can tolerate. For example, a patient in late stages of cancer can tolerate doses of morphine that would kill a healthy person.

I apologize but I do not recall the sources for this information.

Re:How Tylenol Works?

[sessamoid]

PCP and ketamine were used as anaesthetics until the 60s/70s.

Actually, ketamine is still used occasionally as an anesthetic and for procedural sedations, particularly in children who have fewer side-effects from it. I wasn't in practice in the 60's and 70's, but I don't recall ever hearing about PCP being used as an anesthetic, and it's a doubtful thing considering it has no real value as an anesthetic that I can think of. My experience with PCP is thankfully limited, however.

Morphine is still widely prescribed, and I'm pretty sure the doctors don't know too much about it

Actually the action of morphine on mu opiate receptors in the brain is fairly-well (though not completely) understood.

If I'm wrong, correct me so I don't make the same mistake again.

Request granted. ;)

Re:How Tylenol Works?

[tid242]

but I don't recall ever hearing about PCP being used as an anesthetic

PCP was actually origionally tried for anesthesia but due to the adverse effects of the drug after surgery was quckly written off for this purpose... FYI ketamine is still widely used in the vet. industry as it's 'safer' than traditional anesthetics in terms of respiratory depression and the like, a farmer can walk into a pasture with a syring full of ketamine, stab the cow with it, perform whatever on the cow, and walk away, the cow eventually wakes up... at least that's what one of my old Neuro profs had said once...

i concur with your morphine statement...

-tid242

Re:How Tylenol Works?

[tid242]

this mostly has to do with tolerance...

the mu (as well as the other opiate receptors such as kappa, delta, etc-although these aren't necessarily analgesic) receptors show a huge degree of tolerance to extended dosage duration, people with end-stage cancer usually have been on opiates for a very long time and thus it's not uncommon for some patients to be using 1000mg + per day of morphine, whereas the normal dosage (lets say if you came into an ER after an auto accident) would generally only be 2-4 mg every 4 or so hours... if you're pushing the morphine dose for several months regardless of your pain level, i promise your tolerance will increase dramatically as well...

-tid242

Re:How Tylenol Works?

[Zordak]

I see a lot of people treating acetaminophen and ibuprofen as the same in the comments. I'm no doctor, but just in my personal experience, I find ibuprofen vastly more effective for me. I believe that acetaminophen (Tylenol) is a pain blocker, where ibuprofen is more an anti-inflammatory. Since a lot of my headaches and other pains have to do with lack of sleep, tense nerves and sinus infection (I'm a student, work full time and have pretty harsh seasonal allergies), ibuprofen works wonders. I can feel the nerves relaxing after I take the stuff. Tylenol doesn't do much for me, though I hear it is more effective as an actual pain blocker. Of course, like I said before, IANAD.

Re:How Tylenol Works?

[SEWilco]

Your opinion is nice, but only applicable to the headaches which you've encountered which seemed to respond as you expected -- whether the behavior was truly what you believed or not.

Some headaches are indeed "tension" headaches where relaxing the affected muscles can help, whether done with meds, distraction, or conscious relaxation of the individual muscles.

Some headaches are not related to muscle action. If inflammation is involved, it's better to treat that than only blocking the pain. If heat/fever is a cause, then tinkering with the body's thermostat can help, meds can help alter circulation behavior, or direct chilling may be needed (cold drinks, sweat cooling, cool shower, ice pack, body ice pack, abdominal lavage, blood chilling...). Or there are messier possible reasons, such as pain due to physical damage to skin or muscle in the head area (by "physical" I mean damaged tissue for any reason, not only bodily impact, as pain is primarily supposed to report damage).

is this good science?

[blastedtokyo]

The press release says this is how they identified the enzyme:

1. We know that NSAIDs (non-steroidal anti-inflammatories) like Aspirin or Ibuprofen block COX-1 and COX-2 enzymes.

2. We know that COX-1 enzymes help protect the stomach while COX-2 enzymes cause pain sensations and inflammation.

3. We looked at monkey brains and saw that there was an enzyme we know nothing about. It happens to show up in human hearts and brains too.

4. We saw that acetominophen (tylenol) blocks it.

Therefore the way that tylenol works is that it blocks this one enzyme. Since it seems related to pain let's call it COX-3

Sounds like another case of someone saying that correlation=causation. Did they check if tylenol affects the other 8 zillion chemicals in the body?

Re:is this good science?

[Locke!Erasmus]

I believe if the explanation you have provided is correct, they will be starting on body chemical number four sometime early next week. :)

Re:is this good science?

[sessamoid]

Therefore the way that tylenol works is that it blocks this one enzyme. Since it seems related to pain let's call it COX-3

It's not nearly as simplistic as you assume. The cyclooxygenase enzymes are very well defined. We know them down to the atom. The myriad actions aren't necesarily understood in all parts of the body, but the mechanism by which they're involved in pain response is fairly well-understood. These researchers did not just pick "COX3" as the name out of blind stupidity. I'm assuming that the cyclooxygenase-3 is chemically very similar in both structure and function to the other two. There are at least hundreds and thousands of other enzymes related to pain response, but we don't name them COX just because they're related to pain.

Re:is this good science?

[matzim]

What the press release is skimming over is the fact that COX-2 and COX-3 are very similar. It was originally discovered as a *variant* of COX-2 that specifically responded to the same inhibitor (which are used in biochemistry as a marker for a particular enzyme) but had slightly different chemical properties (it binds acetominophen as well). See this paper from the same lab in 1999. So the logic is more like this:

1. We know that NSAIDs block COX-1 and COX-2, and this blockage is responsible for their analgesic activies.

2. Acetominophen blocks a variant of COX-2 (called COX-3) in much the same way that other NSAIDs block that class of enzymes.

3. Since COX-2 and COX-3 are chemically similar (possibly variants of the same gene), we presume they have similar functions.

Therefore, acetominophen acts as an analgesic because it blocks COX-3. It's not absolute proof (and undoubtedly they shall research it further!) but it is in fact very likely. In any case, this most recent study is only saying that COX-3 is found in human hearts and brains-- they're mainly trying to prove that the variant they discovered previously is actually found in vivo.

Re:is this good science?

[gene_tailor]

>The press release says this is how they identified the enzyme

There's the problem right there-- you are relying on a press release for scientific information. I'm glad to see that you are using analyzing what you read, but GIGO...

More importantly...

[km790816]

How Caffeine works...
How Beer works...
How Pot works...

Google is great for finding out important, health-related information. :-)

Re:More importantly...

[Scrameustache]

Aww jeez, not that "pot does the same as heroin" thing again! Sigh.
Lets see, heroin users become physically dependant and quite often die of an overdose. Pot heads can quit in a snap (they'll be grumpy for a week or so, but they won't scream in pain or go nuts) and it has never killed anyone ever in thousands of years of recorded use.
Like the article says, this study proves that pot is as similar to heroin as chocolate. I really don't see any non-propaganda point to these studies.

That cafein article is really interesting though...
Caffeine has some negatives and positives, that much is certain.

Yup! Perks you up in the morning, makes you insomniac at nigh! : )

Re:More importantly...

[tshak]

Ya, pot just makes you stupid after a while. I know it's only anecdotal, but all of my friends who somewhat regulary smoke pot respond slower to dialog. There is also reasonable amount of science backing this up of you google for it. Sure, I don't buy the Pot==Heroin bit, but I'm still not convinced that it's a safe enough substance for public trade and consumption.

Re:More importantly...

[Scrameustache]

I know it's only anecdotal, but all of my friends who somewhat regulary smoke pot respond slower to dialog.

They need some cafein to balance it out : )

I don't buy the Pot==Heroin bit, but I'm still not convinced that it's a safe enough substance for public trade and consumption.

You're right, it isn't 100% safe...I know, lets put people who smoke it in jail! Jail is good for you...having human feces thrown at you fortifies your immune system!

I don't see why warning labels shouldn't be enough.

Now, the people who deal in MSG, THEY should go to jail...scratch that, they should fry.

Re:More importantly...

[tshak]

You make some good points, but I never asserted that it was "a little unsafe" like Red Bull for example. I'm saying that it may be much more dangerous then a lot of us would like to believe. Jail has nothing to do with what's best for the criminal, it has to do with punishment for a crime. If we believe that the trafficking of a substance is dangerous, we want to deter that crime with a serious punishment. If pot is not this substance, then ya, it's kind of rediculous and we should change the laws. I just personally haven't made up my mind yet.

Re:More importantly...

[Scrameustache]

I'm saying that it may be much more dangerous then a lot of us would like to believe.

Yeah, I mean, look at all the babyboomers...they are all braindead by now eh? All the ex hippies all got so brain damaged they became mentally ill and went homicidal and ... oh, no, that's right, they didn't. They became normal middle class drones...damn.

Jail has nothing to do with what's best for the criminal, it has to do with punishment for a crime.

Indeed. I'm saying: Pot smoking should not be a crime. The goal of criminalisation was to protect the public from becoming hopelessly addicted and incurably insane from that evil devil's weed. It was stupid and that mistake should be rectified. They stopped alcohol prohibition when they realised it was a lost cause. but for some reason they keep on with the pot laws as if they were a god-given holy law.

If we believe that the trafficking of a substance is dangerous, we want to deter that crime with a serious punishment.

Indeed. That is why I want the Monosodium Glutamate producers/dealers to get death sentences. Its addictive, it makes people sick, and it causes brain damage in rats (when injected in large doses).

But that doesn't justify the jail sentences for simple possesion. If the dealing is the crime, why is the buyer's life destroyed? (The pot doesn't destroy the pot head's life, the cops do.)
I know a few regular pot smokers (and a bunch of party pot smokers), I don't want their lives destroyed. I don't want them thrown in jail. They can smoke tobacco and drink beer all they want, but a joint could make the police destroy their life. That's not right!

If pot is not this substance, then ya, it's kind of rediculous and we should change the laws. I just personally haven't made up my mind yet.


I propose a very unscientific and dubious experiement: Go rent a heroin movie (Trainspotting or Requiem for a dream) and then a pot movie (Half Baked...can't think of another good one right now), and see if they deserve to be in the same category.

Here's a link that supports your "its bad for you" line of thought.
Here's what I think about it: DUH! Well, if you're smoking pot every day for years and you suddently stop and take a test, of COURSE you'll do bad! And of course students and yungins shouldn't smoke pot! These things (pot, booze, cigarettes) should only be used by grownups, and only when apropriate.
But when you're old enough to vote and go get killed to protect your country. You're also old enough to make your own choices about drinking or eating or smoking what you want. If the governments don't want you too, they should educate you (without lies) and give you resources to help you get back on their idea of the right track. Not destroy you if you use your free will to do things they don't agree to.

Hey, I wouldn't even mind if they kept the dealing laws, because it is possible (if rare) to be addicted to pot, and so anyone who's dealing in it has an incentive to encourage abuse and addiction, but responsible users don't need to be marginalised for their choices.

Tylenol kills brown snakes

[ChadN]

A recent issue of "Science News" magazine (within the past two months), had an article about an experiment where Guam's brown snakes were fed rats stuffed with about 6 acetaminophen (the active ingredient in Tylenol) tablets. All the snakes that ate the rats later died, even the ones that regurgitated them fairly quickly after swallowing them.

Since the brown snake is an introduced pest, and is highly dangerous to the bird population, this discovery is seen as a way to poison the snakes, with hopefully minor side effects for other animals.

And if I were a lawyer, I'd stick to Ibuprofin (ba-dum-bum)

Re:Tylenol kills brown snakes

[Anonymous Coward]

And if I were a lawyer, I'd stick to Ibuprofin (ba-dum-bum)

I don't get it.

Re:Tylenol kills brown snakes

[paulm]

You have to read the article more carefully.

Apparently it was only fatal to snakes without headaches. To snakes which had headaches at the time, it made them feel clear and refreshed, ready to take on the world.

They also fed some snakes equinox, and those ones stopped worrying about the deaths of their brethren.

Just goes to show - Drugs are good.

Re:Tylenol kills brown snakes

[SEWilco]

The hard part was training the rats to eat the acetamitophen tablets.

Tylenol and caffiene

[BlueLightning]

I have been told that Tylenol also contains caffiene, apart from the main active ingredient mentioned in the article, which combats the symptoms of caffiene withdrawal (usually in the form of a headache).

Can anyone confirm this? (Google was not its usual helpful self)

Re:Tylenol and caffiene

[tid242]

"Tylenol" is a brand name, so there is "Tylenol PM" which contains diphenhydramine (Benedryl) and probably other "Tylenol" variations, i am unsure if one of them contains caffeine however. this article is talking about APAP (acetaminophen), the active ingredient in traditional "Tylenol" not whatever name-brand product iterations you might find at whitetrashmart, er... i mean: Wal-mart.

you may be thinking of Excedrin, which generally contains APAP, ASA (aspirin) and Caffiene...

}8^)-~

-tid242

Re:Tylenol and caffiene

[PizzaFace]

I have been told that Tylenol also contains caffiene, apart from the main active ingredient mentioned in the article, which combats the symptoms of caffiene withdrawal (usually in the form of a headache).

Tylenol is straight acetaminophen. Anacin is aspirin and caffeine. Some people say caffeine enhances the analgesic effect of aspirin, and aspirin and cola have long been a popular combination.

hepatotoxic

[tid242]

APAP (Acetaminophen) has long been known to be hepatotoxic, which is why it's generally stated to not take more than 3 grams (reg = 325mg, ES = 500mg, and arthritis = 650mg) per day chronically, or 4 grams per day acutely (less than a week or two), and AFAIK tylenol poisoning far outweighs all of the other poisonings in the US every year. one of the metabolites of APAP causes hepatic necrosis (liver damage), which could plausibly be its detriment to the snakes, especially if they're given 6 tablets, that's 2 grams at a minimum, compare the average 70kg person (unless you're in American, then you can tack on another 10-15kg) to the weight of the average brown snake, probalby not more than a couple of kg's. this is of course assuming that the drug is metabolised the same between the two species, which i don't know..

-tid242

Re:hepatotoxic

[alienmole]

How does APAP compare to ibuprofen from the toxicity perspective? I know ibuprofen is also not good for the liver, but is it similar/better/worse than APAP?

Why is fever something bad??

[Gamasta]

This is something: by inhibiting NF-kappaB action, fever has very interesting properties like inhibiting virus proliferation and activating Heat Shock Proteins. Fever is a defence mechanism. It is itself a relieve for pain. There's nothing wrong with the body if your fever vanishes and you get a terrible headache - it's perfectly natural.

My last viral infection I treated with 12h fever straight, and there was no sign of it left. Now keeping a fever gives farmaceutical industry absolutely no money, which is why likely this is not much revealed, but you can read about it studying physiology...

Yes it is good science

[Anonymous Coward]

I happened to be acquainted with several of these people working on the COX enzymes. I'll have you know these are some of the most brilliant people and scientists I have ever met, including the undergraduates assisting in the project. I am also familiar with other people that are acquainted with them independently, and they have the highest regard for their work. The university also has a great repertoire for patents and discoveries. You may want to read a bit more about the whole situation before you make such an ignorant judgment.