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Belgium To Tax Rewritable CDs

Posted by timothy on from the hopefull-not-ogg-hours dept.

An anonymous reader writes "The Belgian federal government will quietly introduce a tax on rewritable CDs on May 1, the office of the country's minister of economy confirmed. Officially called a "compensation for personal use," the tax will add 12 euro cents (13 cents) per hour to the price of a CD-R. The proceeds are earmarked for composers, copyright holders and performers. Here is the scoop."

57 comments

  1. Hope it doesn't happen here. by TheLink · · Score: 1

    (BTW wouldn't logically rewritable CDs = CD-RW?).

    I'm probably an anomaly - so far most of my CD-Rs are backups of my PC data and stuff like tools - e.g. memtest86, antivirus bootcds and so on.

    --
    1. Re:Hope it doesn't happen here. by UPi · · Score: 1

      I think it's a mistake in the article.

      More interesting is the question: what is the point of taxing rewritable media? If you pay for being rewritable (CD-RW costs a lot more than CD-R), chances are, that you will not keep the stuff on it for long. Probably you won't be using CD-RW's to build your personal CD library copied from wherever.

      I would be interested to see the justification (as the English article doesn't seem to have any). (The fact that casette tapes are rewritable too doesn't count as one :)

      Oh, and by the way, where is your 'here'?

  2. Copying is fine! by OpperNerd · · Score: 5, Insightful

    So copying music to cdrw is fine, you have already payed.

    --
    -- unix is for people without a social life - Patrick van Eijk
    1. Re:Copying is fine! by PD · · Score: 1

      Copying music to RWCD was already fine, and it was free before.

      What's next? An air tax? To pay for the air that you will breath? And will someone say "OK, now breathing is fine, because you have already payed."

      --
      If tits were wings it'd be flying around.
    2. Re:Copying is fine! by Technician · · Score: 1

      So copying music to cdrw is fine, you have already payed. (sp. paid)
      In the US, use the Music CDR for the pre-paid royalty. So far the Data CDR is not for music. It's still considered a data format, not a music format. I'm still not clear if an MP3 is a data format or a music format since it will not play in most CD players.
      I have a bunch of Audio CDR's for my music. I wouldn't want to be accused of piracy!

      --
      The truth shall set you free!
  3. Options by storem · · Score: 2, Insightful
    There are few options in this scenario:
    • Buy before May 1st (law is know since Jan 1st) : Who doesn't have a few hundred CD-R's at home?
    • From anywhere in Belgium drive 100 miles and you find yourself in another country. : 5 miles in my case (France)
    • Start using DVD-R's : 650MB is too small anyway to backup all my data
    I'm not saying anyone should copy music. Buy the CD if you like it!
    --
    StarTrek.org Free Webmail
    1. Re:Options by vano2001 · · Score: 1

      At least one country I know of already has a "tax" of also around ten eurocents on CD-R media: Spain. Looks like it is going to be all over Europe soon. Sorry couldn't find any links though.

    2. Re:Options by amorsen · · Score: 2, Interesting
      There is an EU directive forcing all EU members to implement some kind of levy (notice that this is /not/ a tax; taxes go to the government). So far Germany has chosen to keep theirs very low, so that is where I get my CD-R's. It is legal to import CD-R's for personal use to other member countries without paying any extra tax; EU guarantees the free movement of goods within Fortress Europa. There are many webbased shops in Germany that will gladly send all over the EU.

      As long as just one member country maintains a low levy, it will be possible to get cheap CD-R's. If all of them raise the levy, we are screwed. It is highly likely that a similar levy will be introduced on hard drives and printers. DVD-R's are a sure target, there /will/ be a levy on them if there is not already one.

      --
      Finally! A year of moderation! Ready for 2019?
    3. Re:Options by Jucius+Maximus · · Score: 1
      "Buy before May 1st (law is know since Jan 1st) : Who doesn't have a few hundred CD-R's at home?"

      In theory this works. But just before the same thing was implemented in Canada, all the stores went and put away all their non-levy CD-Rs, lied to their customers saying they were sold out, and the after the date, they put all the discs back and sold them at the levied price, pocketing the extra margin.

    4. Re:Options by Pieroxy · · Score: 1

      5 miles in my case (France)

      If you plan to go to France, you'll be surprised to see that this tax is already there and a lot more expensive : .50Euros per CD. So get your CDs some place else!

      --
      Write boring code, not shiny code!
  4. Only for cds you own by fille · · Score: 2, Informative

    The flemish article states that this extra tax is only a compensation for copying cds you own. So no, you can't copy a friends cd legally just because you paid the tax.

    Some political parties even want an extra tax to compensate the industry for losses of illegal copying! Since the elections are sheduled for may 18th, you can punish those bastards right away! *grin*

    --
    History matters..
    1. Re:Only for cds you own by dago · · Score: 1

      which parties ?

      (sorry, I'm abroad, don't have all the nice colored political leaflets)

      --
      #include "coucou.h"
    2. Re:Only for cds you own by henrik · · Score: 1

      How does this work with fair use where you are allowed to legally make backup copies of media you have bought? You cannot be allowed to taxate fair use in the copyright low can you?

    3. Re:Only for cds you own by fille · · Score: 1

      It's in the article on zdnet.be:
      "In december had de partij Spirit voorgesteld om alle muziekdownloads te legaliseren en de rechthebbenden te compenseren via een forse belasting op blanco cd's en harde schijven, maar zover zijn we nog niet."

      This proposal is much more extreme: all downloads of music (!) would be legalised and a compensation for the industry would be paid by taxing cds and hard disks.

      --
      History matters..
    4. Re:Only for cds you own by henrik · · Score: 1

      Copyright lsw is pretty international with the Bern convention.

    5. Re:Only for cds you own by den_erpel · · Score: 2, Insightful

      well, next to the fact that a lot of ppl will go to France, Holland or Germany and the ever interesting Luxembourg for CDRs, a lot of ppl (including myself) will have no moral objections agains copying anymore. I guess I have bought my last CD spindle in Belgium (good move again from the government).

      Heck, I hardly burn _any_ music CD (I'm not a music fan), and as a result I will have paid any music CD I would ever copy several times on taxes.

      If they tax it, they should compensate, in this case, it's just like any other tax in this poorly gouverned country and another excuse to get money from the (already) overtaxed population.

      I really hope this one backfires on the SABAM lobby.

      --
      Genius doesn't work on an assembly line basis. You can't simply say, "Today I will be brilliant."
    6. Re:Only for cds you own by dago · · Score: 1

      Wow. Umh. Let's think about this proposition.
      We (or you, in this case) already have tax on blank CD.
      They propose to legalize download in exchange of a tax. Well. (too small issue alone to cast my vote anyway)

      Now, back to flemish (the few I knew is now mixed with german, shit) ... ... cool article, but, as you seem well informed, maybe you can answer this question that stay unanswered for me :

      "Een kopie maken van een cd die u niet gekocht hebt of gedownloade muziek op cd branden blijft illegaal."

      -> By which law (and judgment) ?

      --
      #include "coucou.h"
    7. Re:Only for cds you own by dago · · Score: 2, Informative

      Well, the point is that the copyright law I (was suppose to) studied at school stated that 'copies made for private use' are allowed.

      And the problem is what is private use. And I can't find anything which state that copying something from kazaa is illegal. When napster was hot, IFPI menaced (email, letters) against people sharing stuff, not downloading it ... so ...

      Now, for 'ethical' things, artists should be retributed for their work, of course. But as you stated, ther are a lot of problem with existing bussiness models ... talk to any small group about the SABAM.

      So, that's currently a very blurry situation where eveything is evolving ... let's see what will come. The spirit proposition go into that sense : to find another solution (now, wether it's good or not...).

      --
      #include "coucou.h"
    8. Re:Only for cds you own by sconest · · Score: 1
      next to the fact that a lot of ppl will go to France,

      iirc, CD-R have taxed for some time in France now

      --
      Guvf vf abg n EBG zrffntr
    9. Re:Only for cds you own by sconest · · Score: 1

      iirc, CD-R have been taxed for some time in France now

      --
      Guvf vf abg n EBG zrffntr
    10. Re:Only for cds you own by usotsuki · · Score: 1

      Not in Taiwan where Son May makes pirate copies of just about everything Sailor Moon stuff that Nippon Columbia released :\

      -uso.

      --
      Dreams, dreams, don't doubt dreams, dreaming children's dreaming dreams. Sailor Moon SS
    11. Re:Only for cds you own by dipipanone · · Score: 1

      Now, for 'ethical' things, artists should be retributed for their work

      Oh absolutely. I can think of loads and loads of artists who should be 'retributed' for their work. The late, great, Bill Hicks had the right idea.

      "M.C. Hammer? Come over here. Now suck Satan's cock... Vanilla Ice? Come over here..."

      I think you meant to say they should have restitution, but the idea of retribution for the suffering they've imposed is just so much more appealing...

    12. Re:Only for cds you own by den_erpel · · Score: 1

      Heck, no wonder the CDs are expensive in Auchan!

      A bit out of date but:
      http://www.vnunet.fr/actu/article.htm?numero =6697

      Heck, it'll be Luxembourg then.

      8,5 per 50 CDr or 85 Euro for 500, I mean, for a number of ppl it gets pretty interesting to drive 160 km if you're around Brussels.

      One of the advantages of combining the power of the internet and living in a small country.

      Long Live Luxembourg!

      --
      Genius doesn't work on an assembly line basis. You can't simply say, "Today I will be brilliant."
    13. Re:Only for cds you own by dago · · Score: 1

      *ç%*&$ english words which looks like french ones and don't have the same meaning

      retribution in french means money you get for a work you did.

      learned something today ... cool...

      --
      #include "coucou.h"
  5. Big Deal by infonography · · Score: 1
    I don't use them, I use standard CD-R non-rewritables. They are cheaper and they don't require a erase action first. If I don't like the burn or I don't need it any more fine, I toss it. I'm out what $0.08 US? Even if they tax it it's not an issue, you got to pay maybe a couple of cents more.

    Ok I am taking about the US but the logic will apply anywhere. I don't like it if the money is going to RIAA but are we just talking about attacking the funding sources of the RIAA and it's EU counterpart. Or are we just bitching about taxes. The causes that get discussion here sometimes astound me.

    --
    Sorry about the writing. Robot fingers, you know? Cliff Steele in DOOM PATROL #23
    1. Re:Big Deal by Tralfamadorian · · Score: 2, Insightful

      'just bitching about taxes'

      It's the justification for the tax that people don't like.

  6. Legal to copy then by henrik · · Score: 1, Troll

    Well, this should make it legal to borrow a CD from the local library and copy it onto a CDR that still is cheaper than the original CD. And I you are paying the tax for it, it should be perfectly legalm because why would you otherwise we paying a fee (tax) for it?

  7. H'mm... by codeButcher · · Score: 2, Funny

    Time to make that career move to musician that I've always dreamt of... Seems that there's money to be made.

    --
    Free, as in your money being freed from the confines of your account.
  8. Only for cds you own by fille · · Score: 1

    Maybe Belgian copyright law does not allow copying cds for fair use? I have no idea honestly..
    Nobody seems to care anyway. There is certainly no debate in the Belgian media on this issue.

    --
    History matters..
  9. Not a great compromise by 91degrees · · Score: 1

    But it dopes mean that the record industry has less right to complain about us evil pirates.

  10. Pretty steep by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Let's see

    80 minute CDs.
    50 CDs to a spindle.
    4,000 minutes per spindle
    at 0.12/recordable hour

    8/spindle

    That's too much in my books.

  11. Not CDRW by sconest · · Score: 2, Informative

    The flemish article talks about CD-R not CD-RW.
    It also says there was already a tax for audio CD-R that'll be increased from 12 eurocents to 23 eurocents.

    --
    Guvf vf abg n EBG zrffntr
  12. The important questions. by GothChip · · Score: 1

    If you have paid tax on cd-r's for compensation to the artists, are you then allowed to copy the works? What is the legal standpoint here?

    Are there any other industries where the government makes you pay for the crimes of others?

    1. Re:The important questions. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are there any other industries where the government makes you pay for the crimes of others?

      There are plenty of taxes like this. Who pays after a major riot or terrorist attack? Who pays for prisons and executions? Who pays welfare to Enron employees?

    2. Re:The important questions. by fmaxwell · · Score: 1

      There are plenty of taxes like this. Who pays after a major riot or terrorist attack? Who pays for prisons and executions? Who pays welfare to Enron employees?

      You are mistaking the allocation of general taxes with a specific tax levied against someone because it is expected that they are more likely to commit a crime. It would be like levying a tax on white tank-top T-shirts and giving the money to women who are victims of spousal abuse.

  13. Here in Denmark... by keller · · Score: 1
    We have been paying tax on CD-R and CD-RW for a couple of years now. The amount is 0,0533kr/minute, so the price af an 800MB CD went up with about 5kr ~ 0.66 this effectively doubled the price on CD's overnight!

    Nowadays most of the CD's i buy comes from Germany! But even the Belgian tax is way less than ours!

    --

    Enig? Det alt for hot det smor!

  14. Catching up to America... by Craig+Maloney · · Score: 1

    Let's see here... a tax on something that I could already do legally in my own home to subsidize a troubled industry.

    Belgium, I salute you!

    1. Re:Catching up to America... by Basje · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Maybe someone from Belgium could write a letter to the European Commission. Supporting commercial entities with tax money is illegal in the EU, and will lead to harsh penalties (Sabena anyone?).

      Then make it public the government's illegal support of the recording industry is costing the community a lot of money.

      There are elections in Belgium in 2 months. Make an issue of it.

      --
      the pun is mightier than the sword
    2. Re:Catching up to America... by storem · · Score: 1

      There are elections in Belgium in 2 months. Make an issue of it.

      Actually, this is incorrect. Elections are 18 May 2003 (more like three weeks from now) for Belgium Federal Parliament & Senate.

      --
      StarTrek.org Free Webmail
    3. Re:Catching up to America... by BitterOak · · Score: 1
      Supporting commercial entities with tax money is illegal in the EU

      Well, the way Canada got around that one was to call it a "levy" instead of a tax. (Canada has a similar law.)

      --
      If I can be modded down for being a troll, can I be modded up for being an orc, or a balrog?
    4. Re:Catching up to America... by phorm · · Score: 1

      America? More like catching up to Canada... I've never figured out quite how our government ended up taxing us on behalf of an American recording agency... but your didn't. Hopefully this disease won't spread to any more countries.

  15. Wonderful by one9nine · · Score: 1

    So composers, copyright holders and performers get to cash in on people buying CD-Rs to back up their personal and work files. Someone should tell these guys that not all CD-Rs are used to make "Barthalamu's Super Terrific Dance Dance Dance Mix".

    1. Re:Wonderful by AssFace · · Score: 1

      speaking of which - can I get another copy of that "Barthalamu's Super Terrific Dance Dance Dance Mix" that you made for me?

      thanks.

      --

      There are some odd things afoot now, in the Villa Straylight.
  16. That's some kinda tax! by Muad'Dave · · Score: 2, Funny

    ...the tax will add 12 euro cents (13 cents) per hour...

    Good Lord!! 12 cents/hour adds up to 20.16/week! That's 150.27/month!

    What's that? Oh, they mean 12 cents/hour of recordable time on the disk...nevermind.

    --
    Tiller's Rule: Never use a word in written form that you've only heard and never read. You will end up looking foolish.
  17. Only for cds you own by fille · · Score: 1

    I don't really understand your question, I think. Do you ask which law prohibits copying a cd or burning mp3 from the net? I suppose it's just copyright law that specifies this. It's also illegal to copy a book so it's the same thing basically. I'm not a lawyer so I can't give you the correct number or references though..

    I really don't have a problem with it either. Copying cds shouldn't be legal, I think. It's not public domain and people invest a lot of money in recording albums so consumers should pay. However, paying this investment by taxing everybody, even people who never copy cds, is just not fair.. Moreover, technological advances such as mp3, cdrom burners, etc. will make it very difficult to stop piracy so a new business model may be very necessary for this industry. You can't sue a large part of the population, I suppose..

    --
    History matters..
  18. Taxing HDD is next.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Since portable Hard Drives are cheaper, and hold more, how much longer before they levy the RIAA tax on ALL recordable media ESPECIALLY hard disks?

  19. Freedom Waffles by n1ywb · · Score: 4, Funny

    In other news, Americans are now referring to "Belgian waffles" as "freedom waffles".

    --
    -73, de n1ywb
    www.n1ywb.com
    1. Re:Freedom Waffles by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And the French are referring to Belgian waffles as Belgian waffles. I'll just go with the French on this one.

  20. Could you define that in American Values? by notque · · Score: 0

    I'm sure that whatever ammount it was akin to would be too much, I'm just rather curious.

    --
    http://use.perl.org
    1. Re:Could you define that in American Values? by Zaphod+B · · Score: 1

      The euro is more or less equivalent to a dollar... generally worth a bit more than a dollar...he's talking about a tax of $8.86 at today's wholesale exchange rate.

      And before anyone else asks, that's CDN$12.78, A$14.24, and £5.56... other conversions available here.

      --
      Zaphod B
      When duplication is outlawed, only outlaws will have /bin/cp
    2. Re:Could you define that in American Values? by GnarlyNome · · Score: 1

      No Define it in real value how many beers is this tax cost me?

      --
      Diplomacy is the art of saying "Nice doggie" until you can find a rock. Will Rogers
    3. Re:Could you define that in American Values? by Zaphod+B · · Score: 1

      Depends. Two beers per spindle if you're at a club, four beers per spindle if you're at a VFW hall, and two cases of cheap watery beer at a Kwik Trip.

      --
      Zaphod B
      When duplication is outlawed, only outlaws will have /bin/cp
    4. Re:Could you define that in American Values? by GnarlyNome · · Score: 1

      Ok now it makes sense damn little music on a cd is worth two beers thats why we mix or own.

      --
      Diplomacy is the art of saying "Nice doggie" until you can find a rock. Will Rogers
  21. Personally by Snowspinner · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I think that taxing media is a perfectly reasonable way of handling things. I'd be perfectly happy to pay a CD, DVD, or even HD tax per gig in exchange for the right to use P2P networks, burn, swap, and pirate at will.

    The problem is that this law doesn't actually do that. It just adds another penalty, rather than switching penalties from prosecution to a small tax.

    But I still think this is probably the best way for the music industry to make up its lost profit.

    --
    Philip Sandifer's academic website
    1. Re:Personally by Dyolf+Knip · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Gee, I wish I could lower supplies, decrease the product value, increase prices, and generally piss off my customers and then get the government to augment my mysteriously reduced profit margin.

      --
      Dyolf Knip
  22. does this mean... by josepha48 · · Score: 1

    ... that if you use the CD-R to back up your own personal data that you are allowed a 12 cents refund for each backup of you own data? I use my CD-R to back up my digialy camera pictures, documents and programs I write. .. I guess its good I don't live there otherwise I'd have to pay the record companies money to back up my own data.... in the US I'd want to sue...

    --

    Only 'flamers' flame!

  23. The sad thing is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    With all this tax B.S. the artist still only gets about $0.20 per CD fatcats get the rest