Posted by
michael
on from the keep-seat-belt-fastened-while-seated dept.
An anonymous reader writes "The BBC has the story and picture of an Airbus 312 jet which flew through a giant-hail storm and was left with serious damage."
(yeah, I know... only just on topic... but I couldn't resist;-)
--
(Spudley Strikes Again!)
A lesson about journalists
by
PD
·
· Score: 4, Informative
There is no such thing as an Airbus 312. The airplane that flew through the hailstorm was an Airbus 321, a rather common plane in service around the world.
The lesson is really a question: if a journalist, who is supposed to be an expert in reporting the facts, can't even get the type of aircraft right, then what else are they reporting incorrectly? Something to think about while watching CNN tonight.
A simple Google search shows the existance of an Airbus A340-312, which is likley what this lazy reporter was reffering to. I agree with you about journalists though. It's a good day for them when they get 3 out of four 4 straight.
-- "The moment "pride" is lost, "freedom" is also lost." - Ramza.
That's even worse. The equivalent mistake would be to refer to that Taurus out in your driveway as a Ford 3450 pounds. Sure, it's a Ford, and it's 3450 pounds (or whatever a Taurus weighs) but to call it that is useless.
This is surprising?
by
tpearson
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· Score: 2, Insightful
Are we supposed to be amazed that huge hail can damage a plane?
Re:This is surprising?
by
Bob+Zer+Fish
·
· Score: 1
Not really. Does anyone remember those massive hail stones that hit in Sydney a few years back? Were the largest hail stones recorded then?
In some of the areas I went it looked like corrugated iron had been damaged on roofs.
Hey, who's flying this thing?
by
pphrdza
·
· Score: 3, Insightful
I can't help wondering why the pilots just flew into the storm. Either it didn't look that bad, or they had the plane on autopilot and weren't watching the storm scope.
Re:Hey, who's flying this thing?
by
Anonymous Coward
·
· Score: 5, Interesting
Or maybe they were watching the stormscope and not the radar, since a stormscope is a spherics device and only detects electrical discharges associated with lightning and is thus totally blind to rain, hail, or other forms of precipitation. If you are into this sort of this, this month's copy of AOPA Pilot has a column that discusses a similar incident involving an AirTran DC9. That aircraft lost the radome (it departed the aircaft, as opposed to being severely dented as happened to the Airbus).
Or maybe the flight attendant from west Texas didn't like the pilot and told him to "Go to hail":-).
Re:Hey, who's flying this thing?
by
Detritus
·
· Score: 2, Informative
They were lucky. I remember an accident in the southern United States where a DC-9 tried to fly through a severe thunderstorm with hail. Both engines were destroyed and the plane crashed, killing everyone on board.
-- Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
Wrong? Right back atcha!
by
Dahan
·
· Score: 4, Informative
A simple Google search shows the existance of an Airbus A340-312
There were a lot of people who let out involuntary screams and some very distressed young children crying near us
This is as opposed to a voluntary scream? Seriously, what do the speaker expect people to do?
"Oh shit, it does appear to me that giant hailstones are pummeling our plane somewhat fiercly. Attendant, please fetch me a cup of tea, and this time please strengthen it with a little rye. Well, get along then. That's a good girl"
Personally the only thing that I might be considering more than screaming would be to find the nearest source of a life raft/parachute in case of future need.
Radom damage
by
Murphy(c)
·
· Score: 4, Interesting
Just a quick note, that the damage seen on the picture from the BBC-News page, depicts a fairly large hole, our "inset" into the radom (nose cone) of the aircraft.
Now you have to remember that this part of the aircraft is probably the most fragile as it is not made out of steel or aluminium but rather carbon-epoxy (because it houses the plane's radar, and radar energy doesn't pass thru metal all that good). Also the radom is not pressurised and a plane can easily fly without it nor, the radar it portects.
That being said, I cannot comment on the other impacts or their severity.
P.S. But as another poster said above, Why the hell did they fly into a thunder/hail storm in the first place is beyound me. "Cumulo Nimbus" (the big anvil shaped thunder storm clouds) are the first thing any pilote learns never to go near.
Murphy(c)
Re:Radom damage
by
Alioth
·
· Score: 3, Informative
Avoiding CBs is all very well - if you're flying under VFR (visual flight rules) you can just look out for the clouds, and steer around them.
Embedded CBs are another kettle of fish. If you're already in another, otherwise benign cloud, you may not see the CB you're about to wander through. Airliners have weather radar to mitigate the risk of flying through a cell, but it does happen (limitations of the instrument, equipment failure, pilot error - radar pointed at the wrong thing etc). If you look through the NTSB reports, you'll find one or two airliners or corporate aircraft that encounter hail every year. Light GA planes encounter it (usually an embedded thunderstorm) a bit more often as they generally don't have expensive radar installations - although most GA pilots simply don't fly IFR when there are thunderstorms around.
Carbon absorbs radar energy too?
by
nietsch
·
· Score: 1
It could be my understanding, but isn't carbonfibre quite conductive as well? It nothing more than long strands of graphite essentially. Therefore carbon fibre would not be the material radomes are made of. On the picture it looks more like ordinary glassfibre, at least no black carbon fibres are visible...
And yeah: Why they did flew straigt through it is beyond me.
-- This space is intentionally staring blankly at you
I have always wondered whether aero or car designers would mimic the effects of the golf ball pock marks to get some extra efficiency. It seems that having random dips in the skin of the ball gives the drive substantial extra yards. If that were the case, would it not make sense for cars and planes to have them too? What about boats? Would it prove too costly to have this done to the skin (though I can't think why (unless it was truly random;)). In the case of the plane flying through the storm, I would have thought the marks would have been truly random. Did the plane exhibit any increased efficiency upon leaving the storm?
Re:pock marks for speed
by
at_kernel_99
·
· Score: 1
I have always wondered whether aero or car designers would mimic the effects of the golf ball pock marks to get some extra efficiency. It seems that having random dips in the skin of the ball gives the drive substantial extra yards. If that were the case, would it not make sense for cars and planes to have them too? What about boats? Would it prove too costly to have this done to the skin (though I can't think why (unless it was truly random;)). In the case of the plane flying through the storm, I would have thought the marks would have been truly random. Did the plane exhibit any increased efficiency upon leaving the storm?
Not sure if you're looking for a laugh with that one or not... But, the important difference between golf balls & cars/airplanes is that golf balls are rotating. I am not exactly certain of the effect the dimples have on a golf ball, but such surface imperfections typically add to drag on objects moving through the air.
Having said that, engineers do play aerodynamic games with add-ons like vortex generators. Next time you're sitting over the wing, take a look out there, you'll likely see a bunch of little sails or winglets in one or more rows, angled in alternating directions a few degrees out of line of the slipstream. These generate little vortexes (something akin to a horizontal tornado) that help the effectiveness of the flight controls.
Suffice it to say; if dimples would help, they'd be out there.
Re:pock marks for speed
by
Anonymous Coward
·
· Score: 0
I see your point - if the dimples increase drag, why not have them in places on the vehicle where extra drag would be beneficial.
Re:pock marks for speed
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
pock marks (dimples) in a ball decrease the air pressure around the ball and lower drag, effectively the ball is flying through a hole in the air *slightly* bigger than the ball. I think the ball size/speed combination is crucial and one that planes and cars won't be able to match.
I have always wondered whether aero or car designers would mimic the effects of the golf ball pock marks to get some extra efficiency.
Many aircraft designs do. But instead of dimples, they look like short bits of sheet metal sticking up from the wing. They're called Vortex Generators, abbreviated VG.
VGs are designed to reduce the turbulence associated with the boundary layer. They can improve take-off performance, engine out flight performance on multi-engine aircraft, and they can improve control effectiveness and/or reduce landing speeds. I've never heard of VGs actually improving cruise speed in any measurable way.
As for improved efficiency after the aircraft had been dented, I doubt it. Modern aircraft wings are very carefully designed to operate well over a wide range of flight conditions.
Clearly this pilot ought to be thanking his lucky stars that the wings of his aircraft were designed to withstand this kind of abuse. Given what I've read about the (Sc)airbus rudder certification procedures, he ought to be very thankful that the aircraft held together at all.
If I were that pilot, I'd book attendence to one of Dave Gwinn's courses on how to read onboard weather radar. Clearly he missed something.
-- Nearly fifty percent of all graduates come from the bottom half of the class!
Yes, aircraft designer have looked into surface effects like that, and have considered surface treating certain parts of the skin to improve flow. But the size of the "pock marks" is much smaller than golf-ball sized. IIRC, you talking about pinhead sized dimples, applied as a thin film.
-- Consciousness is an illusion caused by an excess of self consciousness.
Re:pock marks for speed
by
Anonymous Coward
·
· Score: 0
Winglets do not generate little vortexes, they reduce them. They are put on plains to increase fuel efficiency, by reducing induced drag.
Read a physics of flight textbook, before you open you're big mouth.
Idiot.
Re:pock marks for speed
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
http://aerodyn.org/Drag/riblets.html
A quick search would show you that, surprisingly enough, many Phd laiden aeronautical engineers do actually do CFD (computational fluid dynamics) on aircraft surfaces, in the hopes of improving induced drag. (Fuel consumption).
But as my prof told me, usually the economics of implementing riblets are too high.
Re:pock marks for speed
by
Anonymous Coward
·
· Score: 0
I live in the midwest, and I don't think I've ever seen a winglet on a plain.
Also, while he is reading a "physics of flight" textbook, you might want to look into a "usage of your vs. you're" textbook.
you can tell by the size of the plane relative to the people that it is a narrow body (single isle), which in this case (between A340 and A321) would mean the A321...
-- "I'll have a Guinness, no wait, make that a Coors Light" -Grad student I work with, who shall remain anonymous...
sometimes you just don't have a choice
by
Anonymous Coward
·
· Score: 0
The question "why did they fly through it"? has been posed alot. Well sometimes you just don't have a choice. Air Traffic is strictly regulated and you can't just fly around willy nilly. The ATC routes, ESPECIALLY over Germany, are very busy, very congested and ATC does not take kindly to frequent route change requests "due weather." When was the last time you were in turbulence and the plane turned, descended or ascended to avoid it? It doesn't happen very often unless the PIC (Pilot in Command) believes it is of a sustainable force to cause a) undue distress to passengers and crew b)unnecessary risk of damage to the aircraft or c) ATC or an aicraft ahead of them suggests a route change due to an earlier encounter with the approaching weather. Next time you fly United, take a listen to the cockpit "chatter" on your headphones and see how many times the aircraft on the same frequency report weather and see how many times your flight deviates course as a result. I guarantee that as soon as the PIC realised what they were up against he requested an altitude change and, due to the severity of the incident, ATC more than likely obliged. Chances are the storm had not existed for very long prior to the aircraft entering it. Atmopsheric conditions in the summer change rapidly, especially at that altitude and are very unpredictable. Microbursts are common place this time of year and can appear out of nowhere and never appear on radar. So bottom line is that the pilot (with 20 years experience) would never have knowingly put the aircraft in a situation where the resulting damage was a possible outcome. It will be interesting to read the CAA's report on this one.
What's worse than raining cats and dogs?
;-)
Hailing taxi-cabs.
(yeah, I know... only just on topic... but I couldn't resist
(Spudley Strikes Again!)
There is no such thing as an Airbus 312. The airplane that flew through the hailstorm was an Airbus 321, a rather common plane in service around the world.
The lesson is really a question: if a journalist, who is supposed to be an expert in reporting the facts, can't even get the type of aircraft right, then what else are they reporting incorrectly? Something to think about while watching CNN tonight.
If tits were wings it'd be flying around.
A simple Google search shows the existance of an Airbus A340-312, which is likley what this lazy reporter was reffering to. I agree with you about journalists though. It's a good day for them when they get 3 out of four 4 straight.
"The moment "pride" is lost, "freedom" is also lost." - Ramza.
Are we supposed to be amazed that huge hail can damage a plane?
I can't help wondering why the pilots just flew into the storm. Either it didn't look that bad, or they had the plane on autopilot and weren't watching the storm scope.
Another simple Google search shows that every other article says the plane was an Airbus A321.
There were a lot of people who let out involuntary screams and some very distressed young children crying near us
This is as opposed to a voluntary scream? Seriously, what do the speaker expect people to do?
"Oh shit, it does appear to me that giant hailstones are pummeling our plane somewhat fiercly. Attendant, please fetch me a cup of tea, and this time please strengthen it with a little rye. Well, get along then. That's a good girl"
Personally the only thing that I might be considering more than screaming would be to find the nearest source of a life raft/parachute in case of future need.
Just a quick note, that the damage seen on the picture from the BBC-News page, depicts a fairly large hole, our "inset" into the radom (nose cone) of the aircraft.
Now you have to remember that this part of the aircraft is probably the most fragile as it is not made out of steel or aluminium but rather carbon-epoxy (because it houses the plane's radar, and radar energy doesn't pass thru metal all that good).
Also the radom is not pressurised and a plane can easily fly without it nor, the radar it portects.
That being said, I cannot comment on the other impacts or their severity.
P.S. But as another poster said above, Why the hell did they fly into a thunder/hail storm in the first place is beyound me. "Cumulo Nimbus" (the big anvil shaped thunder storm clouds) are the first thing any pilote learns never to go near.
Murphy(c)
It could be my understanding, but isn't carbonfibre quite conductive as well? It nothing more than long strands of graphite essentially. Therefore carbon fibre would not be the material radomes are made of.
On the picture it looks more like ordinary glassfibre, at least no black carbon fibres are visible...
And yeah: Why they did flew straigt through it is beyond me.
This space is intentionally staring blankly at you
I have always wondered whether aero or car designers would mimic the effects of the golf ball pock marks to get some extra efficiency. It seems that having random dips in the skin of the ball gives the drive substantial extra yards. If that were the case, would it not make sense for cars and planes to have them too? What about boats? Would it prove too costly to have this done to the skin (though I can't think why (unless it was truly random;)). In the case of the plane flying through the storm, I would have thought the marks would have been truly random. Did the plane exhibit any increased efficiency upon leaving the storm?
you can tell by the size of the plane relative to the people that it is a narrow body (single isle), which in this case (between A340 and A321) would mean the A321...
"I'll have a Guinness, no wait, make that a Coors Light" -Grad student I work with, who shall remain anonymous...
The question "why did they fly through it"? has been posed alot. Well sometimes you just don't have a choice. Air Traffic is strictly regulated and you can't just fly around willy nilly. The ATC routes, ESPECIALLY over Germany, are very busy, very congested and ATC does not take kindly to frequent route change requests "due weather." When was the last time you were in turbulence and the plane turned, descended or ascended to avoid it? It doesn't happen very often unless the PIC (Pilot in Command) believes it is of a sustainable force to cause a) undue distress to passengers and crew b)unnecessary risk of damage to the aircraft or c) ATC or an aicraft ahead of them suggests a route change due to an earlier encounter with the approaching weather. Next time you fly United, take a listen to the cockpit "chatter" on your headphones and see how many times the aircraft on the same frequency report weather and see how many times your flight deviates course as a result.
I guarantee that as soon as the PIC realised what they were up against he requested an altitude change and, due to the severity of the incident, ATC more than likely obliged. Chances are the storm had not existed for very long prior to the aircraft entering it. Atmopsheric conditions in the summer change rapidly, especially at that altitude and are very unpredictable. Microbursts are common place this time of year and can appear out of nowhere and never appear on radar.
So bottom line is that the pilot (with 20 years experience) would never have knowingly put the aircraft in a situation where the resulting damage was a possible outcome.
It will be interesting to read the CAA's report on this one.