The Hulk and Gammasphere

BuzzSkyline writes "The Hulk may be animated, but the Gammasphere that turns Bruce Banner's hissy fits into raging rampages is real. It's based on a gamma ray detector used at the Berkeley and Argonne National Labs. The actual machine doesn't make monsters, but it helps in studies of nuclear monstrosities. The American Institute of Physics reports on Gammasphere and its role in the movie at Inside Science News Service."

Comments

The more I read this article.

[AtariAmarok]

You know, the more I read this article, the angrier I get. You won't like me when I'm ...aaa .Arrgh
ARGGHHHH

HULK MOD-DOWN YOU PUNY TROLLS!

Invertable transducers

[MonkeyBoyo]

In the link it says:

One obvious difference between the real machine and the fictional version is the fact that the movie Gammasphere emits gamma rays that cause Banner to transform from human to Hulk every now and then. The real Gammasphere detects the weak gamma ray signals emitted by decaying atoms, and is harmless

Don't these "real" scientists know anything about transducers? Anything a transducer can detect it can also emit. Thus microphones are speakers and vice versa. I am sure that there is someway that you can apply energy to a CCD photon detector and have it emit light. An if you can control the phase of the signals to the individual cells then the CCD array may emit frigging laser beams.

Note in the AIP write up they neglected to mention what sort of transducers they have which keeps the general public from knowing how easy they are to invert.

Re:Invertable transducers

[krysith]

MonkeyBoyo,

I'm afraid it doesn't work quite like that. You see, gamma ray detectors (and most other detectors of ionizing radiation) detect the ionization produced by a ray passing through a material. The gamma ray passes through a material (in this case, a germanium crystal I believe) and knocks a few electrons around. That current is then collected, and by knowing the size and location of a pulse of current, they can determine the size and location of the photon which passed through. If you were to reverse the process, you could get some electrons to move around, but you couldn't make them dance in the exacting pattern which would be required to emit a bunch of photons which would combine to make a high energy gamma ray. It is less like turning a microphone into a speaker than it is like trying to get a thousand microphones to reproduce a sound a mile away, as if it had been produced at that point. In other words, it is theoretically possible to create a gamma ray by combining multiple ionizations, but only if you can control where those ionizations occur down to a nano-, maybe even pico- meter resolution. Generally, the best way to create a gamma ray is to ram two nuclei together at very high speed. Basically the same method the hulk uses...

"HULK SMASH!"

fun with gamma rays

[Mobster75]

You know... Back in college I was always taught that gamma rays would quickly and easily kill any human because of their short wavelengths and high frequencies....

There is a reason they are one of the extreme categories on the 6 category scale of wavelengths I was taught about... (Radio waves, IR, Visible light, UV, X rays, Gamma rays)

Re:fun with gamma rays

[reverseengineer]

Well, gamma rays are dangerous, of course, but how dangerous is a matter of scale and situation. There's an old puzzle that goes something like this: You are given three radioactive cookies, and told one is an alpha emitter, one is a beta emitter, and one is a gamma emitter. You are told which is which. You are also told that you must hold exactly one of the cookies in your hand, you must put exactly one in your pocket, and you must eat the third cookie.

It turns out that the "best" solution is to hold the alpha emitter in your hand, put the beta emitter in your pocket, and eat the gamma emitter. The thickness of your skin should be sufficient to stop an alpha particle, your clothing should be able to stop most beta particles. Why should you eat the dangerous gamma cookie? Gamma rays are so penetrating that it would take at least an inch of lead to stop them. The other two choices (hand or pocket) wouldn't offer any meaningful amount of protection, so it would be best to protect yourself from the alpha and beta rays, and just hope the gamma source doesn't kill you.

And it might well not- most of the gamma particles will pass right through you actually. Some of them probably will collide with particles in your body, of course, and may do some serious damage to your cells. Proteins and lipids can be damaged and denatured- radiation burns. If DNA is damaged, cells may die as new proteins are no longer able to be constructed. The possibility also exists for damaged DNA to have tumor suppressor genes damaged and "turned off" by the radiation, leading to cancers. Yes, gamma radiation can be very dangerous, but its penetrating ability that makes it so dangerous also limits its effects, since most gamma radiation will pass right through you. Look at an even more extreme example of penetrating radiation- neutrinos. At this very moment, billions of neutrinos emitted in fusion reactions in the sun are streaming through your body, and if one happens to strike an particle in your body, it can do damage just as surely as any other form of radiation. In fact, not too long ago there was a story on /. that involved a blue-sky theoretical plan to destroy nuclear warheads with neutrinos.

It all comes down to the idea of mean free path- the average distance a particle will travel before it contacts another particle. When I say that an inch of lead will stop gamma rays, that's just shorthand for saying that the vast majority of gamma ray photons, fired at the lead, will collide with particles in the lead- the mean free path of a gamma ray through lead, then, is less than one inch. In comparision, the mean free path of a neutrino through lead is over a light year. Odds are pretty good that you will live your entire life, bombarded by quadrillions of neutrinos, without a single one interacting with a particle in your body- they are penetrating to the extent of being basically harmless.

Mean free path is dependent in part on the density of the medium a particle passes through, as well as the characteristices of the particle in question. Alpha particles are essentially helium nuclei, 2 protons, 2 neutrons. The doubly positive charge and the large size of this particle (on a quantum scale, anyway) mean that almost any solid or liquid matter is dense enough to stop alpha particles almost immediately. Beta particles are just electrons ejected from the nucleus in beta decay (a neutron "becomes" a proton, an electron, and an antineutrino. The latter two are ejected, but the proton stays, raising the atomic number of the atom by 1), and so have a charge of -1 and have about 1/1800 of the mass of a neutron or proton. Still, they're easily absorbed by thick fabric or a sheet of foil. Gamma rays are photons, and so are massless, move at the speed of light, and have no electric charge. It takes a considerable amount of a dense substance (like lead) to absorb gammas.

The damaging effects of these

Re:fun with gamma rays

[robson]

There's an old puzzle that goes something like this: You are given three radioactive cookies, and told one is an alpha emitter, one is a beta emitter, and one is a gamma emitter. You are told which is which. You are also told that you must hold exactly one of the cookies in your hand, you must put exactly one in your pocket, and you must eat the third cookie.

Mmm... hypothetical deadly cookies...

Re:fun with gamma rays

[Muhammar]

The radioactive cookies story is a little bit stupid: Alphas emitors are not *that* harmless in hands.

Plutonium parts ("the pit") of the core of nuclear bomb as well as the depleted uranium-tipped ammunition is always electroplated with a thin layer of another metal (nickel, for example) to prevent people from getting "radiation burns" on the skin of their hands when handling these alpha emiting materials.

Re:fun with gamma rays

[Idarubicin]

Plutonium parts ("the pit") of the core of nuclear bomb as well as the depleted uranium-tipped ammunition is always electroplated with a thin layer of another metal (nickel, for example) to prevent people from getting "radiation burns" on the skin of their hands when handling these alpha emiting materials.

As I understand it, it actually doesn't have to do with direct radiation burns. When alpha decay takes place, a sizable amount of kinetic energy is divided up between the alpha particle and the remaining atomic nucleus. Sometimes the decay gives the remaining nucleus a sufficient kick in the right direction for it to come loose from the surface. This decay product is often radioactive as well, so instead of dealing with a solid lump of plutonium (bad enough) you also have radioactive dust on surrounding surfaces and in the air. Sealing the surface contains these decay products.

As well, plutonium is even more toxic as a chemical poison than as a radioactive one--coating the parts makes sense just to prevent contact with it.

Finally, pure plutonium is (IIRC) a fairly reactive metal. Electroplating it prevents it from oxidizing--you don't want your nuclear warheads to get 'rusty', do you?

Radiation burns from the alpha emission are actually relatively unlikely--even the most careless handler of plutonium would be wearing rubber gloves, and a sensible soul works in a shielded glove box full of inert gas. This is more than sufficient to stop any alpha particles.

Re:fun with gamma rays

[Anonymous Coward]

Off topic, I know...

I've been told by people in the Organic Chemistries that it's much easier to produce mutations with those chemicals than it is with radiation.

ALL types of high energy radiation ten to bust up the chromosomes and DNA, rendering it useless.

What has to happen for mutation is that the DNA/Chromosomes be changed, without destroying the ability to replicate.

Re:fun with gamma rays

[Anonymous Coward]

Keep in mind that the penetrating ability of a gamma ray depends on its energy. For some isotopes, with energies around 100 keV, only 1 gamma in 5 would get out of your body (assuming it's 10 cm to the exit). On the other hand, for a 1000 MeV gamma, an inch of lead will let 1 in 6 through.

Re:fun with gamma rays

[VAXcat]

You left out part of the cookie riddle - it's 4 things, and 4 choices. The things - an alpha source, a beta source, a gamma source, and a neutron emitter. The 4 choices - throw away, hold at arms length, put in pocket, and eat. You want to throw away the neutron source, because it can activate nearby material and cause even more radiation. You hold the beta soruce at arms length, since several inches of air will stop them. The apha source goes in the pocket, where the pocket's cloth will stop it, and you eat the gamma source, since it's long range and won't hurt you much more inside than outside. BTW, sufficiently energetic gamma rays cause lots of damage by pair production - creating antiparticle/particle pairs out of energy, that then smash into things, annihilate themselves, etc.

Hulk

[Anonymous Coward]

I remember my teacher when I was 11 years old threatening to turn into the Incredible Hulk if we annoyed him too much. That was usually enough to shut us up. Even the trouble-makers would shut up when the teacher started going green...

Real lab replica

[Muhammar]

What I realy liked in the article was the film-crew: they actualy cared to replicate the real instrument for their movie - down to a minute details like lab inventory sticker on the back of the instrument. I wish they would do this more often - most of the time Holywood people display a completely cockeyed imagination of how the labs should look like (and how experimental scientists behave there) - probably by watching too many B-movies about mad scientists! I have never seen a chemistry lab in movie that would even remotely looked like a lab. The dumb stereotypes must be offensive to non-scientist people too, I think.

And it would be realy cheap to rent a lab at some univeristy - I bet some students would be delighted in taking cameo roles - and even staging some impressive-looking accident!

Re:Real lab replica

[Anonymous Coward]

And it would be realy cheap to rent a lab at some univeristy

The university probably wouldn't be so eager to rent out a lab when they find out the scene calls for explosions.

Re:Real lab replica

[bcrowell]

they actualy cared to replicate the real instrument for their movie
Mmm...except that in the real instrument, the gamma rays come out of the target, and go into the detectors. You might as well use a picture of a submarine and say it's a spaceship.

Re:Real lab replica

[DGolden]

I was watching a (scarily dumbed-down) documentary on some satellite channel the other day about the possibility of an impending end of the current interglacial period and the dawn of a new ice age - it kept using phrases like "scientists and people too" and "both people and scientists now think...".

Very annoying, if you're one of those crazy loons that happen to believe it's possible to be both a person and a scientist...

Re:Real lab replica

[Muhammar]

That's true, but you have to give the Holywood guys some carma for showing a technical stuff instead of some dopey stereotype.

Btw., have you recognized the animals in the Saruman's evil army of Orcs in "Two Towers"? These were wooly mamoths (instead of Oliphants in the book) and their actual temporaries, giant hyenas (instead of Wargs, which the orcs were riding in the book). Jackson let in CG-generated real (but scary) recently extinct giant animals. He did not have to do this - and it was a nifty improvement!

These giant hyenas were probably worse than the giant saber-toothed tigers and it is now believed that until their extinction, they effectively held off the population of America through Bering straight land bridge. And now you can see them in one picture with Frodo!

Re:Real lab replica

[zer0vector]

As another example, the crew that set up the VLA control room for the movie Contact did an excellent job. They were even allowed to borrow some of the actual pictures, stickers, etc. that adorn the true control room's walls, and use them in the movie. It's nice to see a hint of reality in a movie like that, even if it is just the set.

Scared?

[Luigi30]

I think they'd be scared if the monstrosities started yelling "MONSTROSITY SMASH!!!!"

Scientists and practial jokes

[boy_afraid]

I wonder if these scientist play practical jokes on each other. Image if one is working on the gamasphere and other persons turns it on and zaps the person working on it, does the scientist then pretends to be Bruce Banner and busts a gut and pops his belt buckle??

Oh, what fun it is to play with high (or low in this case) energy particle phyics.

Re:Scientists and practial jokes

[Buran]

I guarantee they don't, seeing as my dad is one of the GAMMASPHERE researchers. They do however go out and drink beer and eat pizza. :)

Truth Can Be Stranger Than Fiction

[Anonymous Coward]

At the 88" Cyclotron, Gammasphere was sited in Cave 4C. The back door of 4C leads to an atrium. Off to the left is Cave 1, where Element 118 was (Not!) discovered. The ongoing saga of 118 will probably lead to a NYTimes article, a pretty good book, and the basis for an earnest "Law and Order" episode.
The Cyclotron is due to be shut down once and for all by Thanksgiving. Even the Hulk can't save it, although he could bid on the demolition work.

I've touched it.

[Buran]

My dad's a nuclear physicist and built one of the experimental systems used with GAMMASPHERE -- I shall not say which, since his name is unusual and I don't want rabid Slashdotters chasing him down.

It's quite an amazing machine, and he gets ten to fifteen academic paper credits to his name per year because of his role in research using GAMMASPHERE.

Yes, the support stands really are painted those wacky colors. You can't see it in the trailer -- at least I couldn't -- but there's some magenta-purple components to the support stands that aren't readily visible, but the aqua and goldenrod portions are clearly visible in the trailer.

The radiation symbol caps on the detectors are fake, though, put in there so the ignorant public can see "Hey! It's nu-kew-lar!". I also couldn't definitively make out the EG&G Ortec logos on the detectors, probably because they didn't get the licensing rights or something.

And I'm sorry to say, but GAMMASPHERE isn't going to turn anyone into a Hulk anytime soon. It's not designed for that sort of work, even if anyone tried it deliberately.

I'm just glad Dad's system worked -- my fingers ached for awhile from wrapping photodiodes and the attached prisms with Teflon tape all day for weeks...

I guess I gotta go see it, just for GAMMASPHERE.

*taking the karma hit for the greater good*

[StealthBadger]

PLEASE MOD THIS UP!!!! LOL

The Hulk

[digtl88]

This movie finally came out did anyone see it?