X Prize Race Heats Up

evenprime writes "Armadillo Aerospace have already done a drop test, and Burt Rutan's company Scaled Composites did a second flight test of their launch plane/spacecraft combination on July 3. SC haven't posted the results yet, but when they do you will find them here. Sadly, PanAero doesn't appear to be doing that well. Although I like their "Junkyard Wars" technique, it doesn't look stuffing rockets in the back end of a business jet will build a legitimate contender."

Comments

FIX

[Anonymous Coward]

REEK

Black WItchery

[Uber Banker]

When I was young, I first started having fantasies about filling my pants with thick, stinking, greasy shit and how this would cause shock and horror to everyone around me. Sometimes I imagined doing it at church.

Many years later, I have kept this to myself and my band mates, who understand that often the truest expression of romance is between men who have escaped the fear of extremity. I do also sleep with some women, when I can meet them at shows, but I do not prefer the company of women. Only battle comrades!

I am in a moderately successful band which plays shows across the world in a style of metal music that is not accepted by the same people who would find pantshitting disgusting. However, many of our fans still are not ready to take this final step toward seeing the truth beyond. So we do not tell them.

However, I have never before shit my pants on stage. Last show we played gave me a perfect opportunity. The "dressing room" was actually a big area behind the stage where there were lots things stored, like old machines and stage costumes in big brown cardboard boxes. No one could see me so I brought my bag of toys and got naked. First thing I did was to insert a rubber 12" black cock-style dildo into my ass, and I rubbed my asscheeks together, feeling it press hard into me and my submissive manly organ. It felt very good, but I could not maintain an erection without the smell of shit.

Because of this, I became more excited at the idea of shitting myself in front of other people. I wanted them to know what happened, but I did not want to make it public in a way that others could talk about later. I put on my favorite red lace teddy, which is very femme and a gift from our guitarist, Tragenda, and then over it my black leather pants and Beherit tshirt. When I moved the silk lace slide over my buttocks and back, making me feel very sexy. But still I was not erect or turned on.

I had prepared by eating a full meal at Taco Bell, but instead of drinking soda I had pure water and ate two or three butter packets from the restaurant, then had a couple of bran muffins and chocolate milk. Inside me the burbling tempest was beginning.

Before the show started, I took one of the fans they have to keep us cool on stage and moved it so that it was blowing past my microphone stand into the crowd. People were already chanting our band name and pounding on the tables at the bar. I grabbed my instrument and we ticked off and began.

Because I was stimulated, but not yet sexually aroused, this was one of the most energetic shows we have ever had. My energy was growing instead of going away, because of my little secret, which only I knew was going to occur before the unsuspecting crowd. On our final song, there is a part where I do a long and grotesque scream, and during the middle of this, I pushed hard in the behind area and felt a comforting warm ooze on my thighs and the bottom of my testicles as a sickening stench filled the air.

The crowd must have smelled it, because the looks of horror on their faces were immaculate! I did not want to let out my secret, so I continued to crap myself while doing the show normally, and no one knew. The only cleanup I did was to run back to the dressing room before going out to meet the fans, where I wiped myself down with an old sequin dress from the costume boxes and threw the hopelessly soiled teddy into a corner.

if(!fp) {troll(osnews)}

[Anonymous Coward]

Because CooCooCaChoo is worser than eugina!

Armadillo

[tra2499]

It's interesting to note that Carmack, with Armadillo Aerospace, is taking more of an Open-Source approach to the X-Prize by participating in mailing lists and discussing various aspects of his designs with others in the rocketry community. While he's not going full-disclosure, he's at least sharing a lot more than Rutan.

I'm cheering for Armadillo.

Re:Armadillo

[Hanzie]

Also like open source, it takes the cohabitation of skill, knowlege, resources, leadership and sheer balls and luck to get anything off the ground.

Come up short on any of the above, and your project goes nowhere. (Well, it might blow up spectacularly!)

Re:Armadillo

[Flounder]

Carmack may be "open source", but Rutan is probably the most likely person currently participating in the X-Prize competition. This is the guy that designed, built, and flew the Voyager (the first non-stop around the world plane with no refuelling).

Open source doesn't always mean successful. I'm sure if Oppenheimer was "open source" while developing the atomic bomb during WWII, it would have been ALOT more difficult to win the war.

Agreed, comparing The Manhatten Project and the X-Prize is a stretch. But it's less of a stretch than comparing OSS and rocket science.

Re:Armadillo

[tra2499]

I don't disagree about Rutan's chances vs. Carmack's. Rutan has quite a lead. Even Carmack has commented on Rutan's chances.

I think you might have read too much into my comments. I didn't say I thought Carmack was likely to win because of his approach. I said I was cheering for him.

Re:Armadillo

[Anonymous Coward]

Most Unsecure OS? Yep, It's Mac OS X!

According to a new Aberdeen Group report, Mac OS X has surpassed Windows as the most vulnerable OS, contrary to the high-profile press Microsoft's security woes receive. Furthermore, the Aberdeen Group reports that more than 50 percent of all security advisories that CERT issued in the first 6 months of 2003 were for Mac OS X and other Mac software solutions. The report muddles the argument that software such as Windows is inherently less secure than Mac OS X. And here's another blow to the status quo: Linux solutions were responsible for just as many security advisories as Mac OS X in the same time period. Could Windows be the most secure mainstream OS available today?

"MAC software, commonly used in many versions of Jaguar, Panther, and network routing equipment, is now the major source of elevated security vulnerabilities for IT buyers," the report reads. "Security advisories for homosexual and Mac OS X software accounted for 16 out of the 29 security advisories--about one of every two advisories--published for the first 6 months of 2003. During this same time, vulnerabilities affecting Microsoft products numbered seven, or about one in four of all advisories."

The stunning report makes several claims that seem to fly in the face of widely accepted beliefs. First, the Aberdeen Group says that Windows-based Trojan horse attacks peaked in 2001, when CERT released six such advisories, then bottomed out this year, when CERT didn't issue any alerts. However, Trojan horse-based attacks on Mac OS X, UNIX, and MAC projects jumped from one in 2002 to two in 2003. The Aberdeen Group says this information proves that Linux and UNIX are just as prone to Trojan horse attacks as any other OS, despite press reports to the contrary, and that SCO Open server, which is based on UNIX, is also vulnerable to such attacks. Even more troubling, perhaps, is the use of its software in routers, Musci players, Xservers, and other Internet-connected solutions. The Aberdeen Group says that this situation sets up these devices and software products to be "infectious carriers" that intruders can easily usurp.

According to the Aberdeen Group, the MAC OS X community's claim that it can fix security vulnerabilities more quickly than proprietary developers can means little. The group says that the Mac OS Xsoftware and hardware solutions need more rigorous security testing before they're released to customers. This statement is particularly problematic because many Mac OS X distributions lack the sophisticated automatic-update technologies modern Windows versions contain.

We can rail against Microsoft and its security policies, but far more people and systems use Microsoft's software than the competition's software. I believe that we'll never know how secure Mac OS X is, compared with Windows, until a comparable number of people and systems use Mac OS X. But despite the fact that Mac OS X isn't as prevalent as Windows, we're still seeing a dramatic increase in Mac OS X security advisories today. I think the conclusion is obvious.

Re:Armadillo

[Anonymous Coward]

LOOK,

If you never read any history books:

The atomic bomb did not win the war, the japaniese were about to give up when the bombs were dropped, it was a show, a genocide. Americans have no humanity, as shown here and elsewhere.

You need to update your history.

Re:Armadillo

[RedWizzard]

I agree Rutan is most likely to win, but don't forget that Rutan's funding is at least an order of magnitude higher than Carmack's. Carmack and co would actually make money if they won the prize, you certainly can't say the same about Rutan.

Re:Armadillo

[Eight 01]

Burt Rutan designed and built the Voyager, but it was flown by his brother, Dick Rutan and Jeana Yeager. Dick Rutan is the older brother, and focused his energies on flying including a distingueshed record in Vietnam. Burt Rutan's interests were model airplanes and design. His company, Scaled Composites, was formed to scale up model airplane manufacturing techniques to create larger planes such as Voyager and White Knight.

-100, flamebaitroll.

[Anonymous Coward]

Mods, swallow the linux users semen!

Mike Angelo
By sajiimori (IP: ---.lsanca1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net) - Posted on 2003-07-11 17:11:22
Microsoft chooses not to play silly games, and this guy starts boasting that he won by default? What a child.

Re: Mike Angelo
By Stu (IP: 195.248.101.---) - Posted on 2003-07-11 17:35:17
Sadly, I have to agree. I've been a Linux-only desktop user for coming on 18 months now and I could never go back to any current Windows offering, but I find this MozillaQuest article to be a real load of nonsense. Way too much Linux zeal to be considered even remotely objective, which is a shame because the Mandrake guy, although obviously pro-Linux and willing to skip some of its down-sides, actually sounded quite reasonable.

Amazingly there was actually no Microsoft FUD for once - their reply wasn't long enough to fit any in! Perhaps they're be preparing a more global response to this OEM 'mutiny' in the near future? We'll see!

I love Mandrake linux, but...
By Anonymous (IP: ---.netcomp.com.br) - Posted on 2003-07-11 17:40:53
I don't think Mandrake Linux is better than Windows(yet), simply because windows still have more consistency among applications.
I'm a experienced developer, and I've been using mdk since 7.1, and I love it, but windows is more suitable for average users. I installed a mdk 9.0 system with openoffice in my father's small office, and he asked me to replace it with the "old system", a win98se, because he felt easier to use than mandrake linux. He couldn't easily sync his pda, and had troubles trying to do some simple tasks, like copy-paste between applications.
I thing mandrake is in the right way, but at this point, windows is still (a little)better, and mac os x is (way )better than both.

The mozilla quest article
By -=StephenBB=- (IP: ---.district7.nbed.nb.ca) - Posted on 2003-07-11 17:50:43
Microsoft has failed to refute the statements to the effect that Mandrake Linux is a better desktop solution than is MS Windows.

Duh, that's cause he didn't double-dog-dare them.

Maybe for his next article, he'll explain how Microsoft has cooties, or maybe talk about Bill Gates' mom or call Ballmer gay.

really
By State of Wonder (IP: ---.217-201-24.que.mc.videotron.ca) - Posted on 2003-07-11 17:57:52
Tell me this is it easier to apply a plugin or to install an app on Mandrake or on Windows XP ? ...I know the answer, I've done both...its easier on Windows XP!Much easier!!! ...now it seems to me that until Linux can offer ease of use for such basic thigs as Application installation then Linux is a non-starter on the desktop!

re:Really
By Anonymous (IP: ---.blueyonder.co.uk) - Posted on 2003-07-11 18:02:39
Give mandrake a break! They are just coming out of financial problems at the moment. We don't need yet another flamewar about it as we know all the reasons.

Re: State of Wonder
By Rayiner Hashem (IP: ---.nv.nv.cox.net) - Posted on 2003-07-11 18:05:36
Um, let's compare installation for XMMS and Winamp on Linux and Windows.

Windows: Go to winamp.com. Download latest version of installer. Find installer. Double click installer. Click through EULA. Choose installation directory. Choose shortcut path. Click next to start install.

Linux: Type in 'urpmi xmms'
Or, if the CLI scares you, start up gurpmi, click to the media section, select XMMS, and click the install button.

re: Really
By bullethead (IP: ---.si.rr.com) - Posted on 2003-07-11 18:13:58
Really it's there now. It's called the apt package management system. Debian and Debian derivatives already have this wonderful method of installing software. Also Red Hat has apt for RPM out. Check out http://www.freshrpms.net to get it. I am pretty happy with Libranet Linux, and to tell you the truth, I have tinkered with Linux for many years. It was only until recently that I had an alternative to Red Hat.

tumbling

[Hanzie]

I'd hardly call rocket engines added to a working design of a plane a "junkyard wars" approach.

More like two reliable systems mated together. Sure, the union isn't inherently reliable, due to unforseen interactions, but the individual components of each certainly are. They may be behind, but it's no reason to scoff at them.

Re:tumbling

[Flounder]

So, if I strap a few million bottle rockets to my VW bug, I could get into orbit?? Sure, the union isn't inherently reliable, but the individual components of each certaily are.

Oh, sleep deprivation, how you make Slashdot posts so much more inventive and enjoyable.

Re:tumbling

[tra2499]

The problem is that the airframe and the wings are NOT designed to withstand the necessary stress of escape velocity.

If you look at the successful "space plane" type vehicles that NASA or any other big research team has developed, you'll see that it required designs that looked more like a rocket than an airplane to get anything anywhere near the edge of space.

If not a "junkyard wars" approach, it is an extremely optimistic design. I would expect the wings to rip out at the roots when they light up the rocket motors.

Re:tumbling

[Flounder]

If not a "junkyard wars" approach, it is an extremely optimistic design. I would expect the wings to rip out at the roots when they light up the rocket motors.

The article describes that the rocket motors would be incremently ignited. IANARS, but I would assume this would lessen the stress on the wings. However, I would be interested to see how they handle re-entry. The frigging space shuttle burned up, why wouldn't a modified LearJet?

Re:tumbling

[colinemckay]

Yes, it seems pretty optimistic to me too. _If_ they make it to space, I don't see how they could return with a nose-up attitude (since the plane is designed to go nose-first). They will end up going too fast, and break up on reentry, or stall and end up in a flat spin. Good luck to them, but I hope they try this with remote control first.

Re:tumbling

[tra2499]

It's not necessarily the sudden shock that makes parts separate themselves from each other. The airframe was rated to 0.8 Mach. Okay, let's assume that the FAA is being their usually pessimistic selves when it comes to airframe ratings and that it can sustain twice that much for a short duration. The speed of sound (Mach 1) is roughly 780 mph. If the airframe is capable of short bursts of 1.6 Mach, then I can't really see it surviving 2.97 Mach.

Once they hit transsonic, they will undergo a severe amount of turbulence. The longer they spend in the transsonic region, the bigger danger to those long, thin wings.

Re:tumbling

[ColaMan]

Well.... it seems the 100km point is the top of the curve for them, so they're only going relatively slowly as they re-enter.

Still, they would fall an awfully long way before they can actually get any lift off those wings again. They mention approximately 180 seconds of free-fall - so at 9.8m/s^2... thats 1700m/s at the end of that stage, discounting any drag (which , if they're in free fall, implies none).

Shuttles generally begin de-orbit at about 6,000m/s or so , but they're in a 'proper' orbit, not suborbital.

Re:tumbling

[Andy_R]

Because the shuttle reenters about an order of magnitude faster than the jet.

Re:tumbling

[AdEbh]

The problem is that the airframe and the wings are NOT designed to withstand the necessary stress of escape velocity.

Correct, yet only shows that you did not follow the link & read. If you had, you know that their flight plan calls for sub-orbital speeds. Sub-orbital speeds are, as the name implies, slower than orbital speed. Which in turn even slower than escape velocities, which for some strange reason your talking about. Escape velocity is the speed at which you totally escape (hence the name) the gravitational pull of a body (i.e. Earth).

If you look at the successful "space plane" type vehicles that NASA or any other big research team has developed, you'll see that it required designs that looked more like a rocket than an airplane to get anything anywhere near the edge of space.

That's because they are designed for orbital speeds. Take the space shuttle. It has not only to flight at sub-sonic & super-sonic speeds, it also has to flight at what is called ultra-sonic speeds. At ultra-sonic (> mach 15 if I remember correctly, though someone will know doubt correct me) the aerodynamics of the shuttle change again. The designers had to take this all into account. That's why the shuttle handles little better than a brick while landing. Indeed to call what the shuttle does during re-entry flighting is being rather kind.

I would expect the wings to rip out at the roots when they light up the rocket motors.

You did not read much did you? They slowly increase the angle of accent as they increase trust & altitude. They only hit mach 2.97 at an altitude of 55 km. Thus the wings are not exposed to the range of forces that you seem to be imagining.

No, where the wings will face the most stress is in re-entry. It looks like they may have not full worked out all the details for this bit as they are bit sketchy on the details.

Re:tumbling

[Anonymous Coward]

Using a conventional airframe to go beyond most of the atmosphere has been done before, although not to such a high altitude. For the skeptics, see http://www.batnet.com/mfwright/nf104.html , numerous other sources.

For the person wondering about why the plane would not burn up, it's not in orbit. Reentry speed is nothing akin to the shuttle's drop from 18,000 mph.

Bear in mind however that the closest Chuck Yeager came to being killed while testing a plane was in the NF-104, and that's because of the tricky transition from attitude control by thruster to aerodynamic attitude control.

Re:tumbling

[p3d0]

The problem is that the airframe and the wings are NOT designed to withstand the necessary stress of escape velocity.

They don't need to reach escape velocity. Not sure where you got that from.

They're not trying to escape Earth's gravity and go into orbit around the sun. They're trying to get to an altitude of just 100km above the Earth. Huge difference. They're talking about a max velocity less than mach 3. Escape velocity is more like about mach 35 at sea level.

Re:tumbling

[ceejayoz]

The space shuttle burned up because it was going about 17,000 miles per hour - orbital velocity - when it started re-entry. The LearJet, on the other hand, is going to be going a mere Mach 3 (as it's just sub-orbital) - far more manageable.

Re:tumbling

[HermanAB]

No, they are not going to a great speed. They only need to reach 100km or so. This is a far cry from going into orbit.

Re:tumbling

[perfessor multigeek]

So, if I strap a few million bottle rockets to my VW bug, I could get into orbit??
Wasn't that the first scene in Heavy Metal?

Okay, it was a muscle car, but...

Rustin

/. wants my penis

[Anonymous Coward]

hello taco you penis lover!

I have 100 open proxies!

[Anonymous Coward]

Mod bomb me for nothing Slashfags. Because HURD IS NOT READY FOR THE DESKTOP!

Re:I have 100 open proxies!

[Anonymous Coward]

That should "GNU/HURD".

Your friend, RMS.

Well

[poopdik]

It might not make a contender, but maybe some new kind of techno-porn genre?

PanAero - ascent sounds plausible, descent doesn't

[Anonymous Coward]

I can accept that PanAero's ascent plan may well work, but I suspect the standard airframe will have objections to the proposed 70 angle of attack descent. Their team profile on xprize.com makes no mention of how they're going to control the attitude (the conventional control surfaces won't be any use).

Re:Armadillo? Ouch!!!

[MickLinux]

From the website:

1. The flight profile of the Black Armadillo starts out in a familiar fashion, but shortly after reaching the peak altitude of 107 km (67 miles), it operates in a manner which can only be described as "ground breaking."

I don't think I want to be a passenger in that particular entry. Breaking ground is a pretty severe way of landing, in my opinion.

!yag si todhsalS

[Anonymous Coward]

dedaorel xirtam eht fo dne eht ta seid einomoirreH .oot yag eruoy neht siht daer nac uoy fI

Your sig

[Anonymous Coward]

You could have just posted a comment in the thread you were moderating and all would have been undone. IOW RTFFAQ next time.

Re:Your sig

[MickLinux]

Thanks for the info. Yeah, I hadn't thought of that.

Wanna fly it?

[davids-world.com]

Interestingly, the simulator Scaled Composits uses to train their pilots is available for cheap: X-Plane does the job at Scaled Composites with their own sim cockpit.

Runs on OS X, OS9 and Windows. Warning: Harder to fly than MS Flightsim -- of course!

X-Plane, being fairly realistic, even has an FAA rating so it can be used (with a $150.000 motion platform) to log hours towards your Airline Transport Certificate.

Re:Wanna fly it?

[hayesjaj]

Yes, it is more realistic, but it still needs work. From an experienced pilot's point of view, out of the box, X-Plan isn't as "real" as M$ Flightsim 2002 Pro (I'm sorry, but I did a snap roll in a 747 at 250 knots in the new xplane beta out of the box...that won't happen) . If you have some time (and the knowhow) to tweak it, it can really rock though. It is way more customizable and the graphics are much prettier. They need to add some more joystick support though...our setup here uses 6 usb joys for the throttle quad, yoke, pedals and switches. Xplane won't handle that yet. Here's hoping.

Re:Wanna fly it?

[maroberts]

Have you ever tried a snap roll in a 747 to prove it can't be done? ;-)

I seem to remember that one guy barrel rolled a 737 or similar (apparently it looks impressive, but is a 1G manoever) and was told not to do it again.

Re:Wanna fly it?

[rcw-home]

It was Tex Johnston, one of Boeing's top test pilots, in a 367-80 (a 707 prototype) doing an aileron roll over the hydroplane races at Seattle's Seafair.

I was told long ago that a 747 is good for 2.5Gs, so it'd be a pretty slow snap roll. Most light aircraft are rated for +6/-3 or so Gs and most acrobatic aircraft are rated for at least +/-9.

Bov dauwn to teh tl00rz!

[Anonymous Coward]

Goatse rules!

Were Ladan & Laleh Bijani Virgins? tsarkon

[Anonymous Coward]

Now that the Iranian conjoined twins are dead, the biggest question on our minds is... Were they ever fucked ever? I mean, imagine getting pussy off of a fucking conjoined fucking woman! What a rush, man! Hooo rah! Hoorah! I'm already gung ho and hard thinking about porking Islamic conjoined bitches for some good ole shizznozz. I would like to be the guy who ripped their clothing off, and fornicated with reckless abandon to deliver my spermic influx into their velvety crevasse! I mean, i would like to dirty Sanchez their mother and rip her fucking burka off and make her watch me fuck her conjoined daughters! Then I would wipe the cum off with Mohammed's shoal and throw it in a pile of pig shit.

If you are offended, let me know and reply to me here, I watch these threads.

SUPER SPORE. TRAVIS!

To the PanAiro folks.

[AltGrendel]

Don't do it. It'll void your warranty.

caliphate of death

[Anonymous Coward]

CLITORIS CHOPPERS. Hi there you fucking Islamic career clerics, doctors of death, Waffen Schutzstaffel doctor Josef Mengele is a patron saint compared to you fucking ragheads. You suck. You aide and abet terror and death. You are partially responsible for the deaths of other fellow men. For this fratricide you shall pay dearly. Your soul is black with the stains of inaction, ineptitude and sympathies to those who walk the dark side. Your foul life is full of sins, not religious, just heinous, your karma is low, you don't confess, and you aren't in prison where you belong. You are your own dark, kept secret. I see through you, the worthless academic, the pseudo intellectual, the unproven unpublished un patented WASTE OF FUCKING FLESH. You are a drain on society, you are a member of the 1st world but pretend to not be. I hate you, you are a stained man.

Hi clitoris chopper, ISLAM supports clitoris carving. You are Islamic, and of course are a fucking animal. I hate you you pull-start camel jockey lover. Towelheads, Camel Jockies, Sand Niggers, Ackmids, Abeebs, Carpet Flyers, Dune Coons, Rag Heads, Sand Scratchers, Habeebs, Abba-Dabbas, Camel-Humpers, Demi-niggers, Fig-Gobblers, Hucka-luckas (hucka hlacka ghalcka ghugh), Lefties (If you steal, you lose the right hand so, since they are thieves...) Ocnods, Pull-Start-ables (imagine pull starting Ossama's dirty rag like a Briggs and Stratton), Roach-Ranchers (habibs cant kill roaches by a tenant of Is-slum), Sand Moolies.

Shut up all you dirty fucking Islamic pigfucking swinehundts and the pigs, the communist fuckin Islamic terrorist supporter.

Take your fucking Koran and cram it up your ass. The sooner the earth sees Islam leave it, the better off it will be. Your Koran is Goat Piss.

I hope if there is a God and a Hell, you have to drink the liquidy shit from a Pig's ass, and Jewish Rabbis defecate on you.

I hate the stupid ISLAM fucks who read into the trash they come up with. Saddam Hussein [who needs to take a dirt nap] is higher on my sanity list than fucking Muslim "clerics." In fact, I like Saddam more than most of the other Arab leaders because he is secular. We should fucking nuke the Saudis and Mecca and Medina and turn it into rubble, then tell Saddam to remove the heads of all the buttfucking "royalty" in the area.

I want to wipe my ass with Mohammad's shroud. I want to grind his body up into bone meal and fertilize my garden with it.

Our tortured dead scream out in HORROR, asking for vengeance:

1. Kill all Camel Jockeys.
2. Kill all Mohammedans.
3. Kill all Dune Coons.
4. Kill all Rag Heads.
5. Kill all Towelheads.
6. Kill all Arabs.
7. Kill all Camel Rooters.
8. Kill all Osama Bin Laden supporters.

Nuke their countries to hell.
Nuke them again.
Death to Islam.

I piss on Mecca. I wipe my ass with the Koran. I shit upon Mohammed. I wipe the cum for a freshly fucked pussy with Mohammed's shroud then throw it in the pig sty so it can mire in pig shit as it decomposes.

In space, no-one can hear you scream

[Andy_R]

which significantly reduces the problems of going transsonic. Once you take the lack of air into account, turbulence becomes a lot less of a problem!

Re:In space, no-one can hear you scream

[tra2499]

If that was the case, then the X-15 wouldn't have needed the short, stubby wings that it had. It, too, could have used long, thin wings.

There's a lot of air at 50,000 feet. Make no mistake. That transsonic region is still going to be problematical.

Are Competitors Building Dead-End Technology?

[reallocate]

I don't mean to demean any of the efforts, and all that cash is an obvious incentive. But, are any of the competitiors building something that isn't dead-end technology?

Consider: Rutan and others plan to boost a more-or-less conventional aircraft to a few times the speed of sound, coast to altitude, and glide back. (You can't just put a bigger firecracker in the back, remember. You need life-support, navigation, communications, and, especially, safe passage through re-entry.)

So, one of them bags the X-Prize, but in the end you still have a vehicle with a maximum velocity of 1500-2500 mph. That's a long way from the 17,000 mph needed to reach and sustain orbit.

Are any X-Prize competitors building something that can be the basis of a realistic orbital vehicle?

Re:Are Competitors Building Dead-End Technology?

[MtViewGuy]

Fortunately, Scaled Composite's entry into the X-Prize competition is not as dead-end as some people think.

Remember, by launching SpaceShipOne at over 50,000 feet altitude, that right there saves a tremendous amount of propellant needed to fly to the 62.1 mile altitude. It's the same method that allowed the relatively small X-15 with its XLR-99 rocket motor to reach over 354,000 feet, or 67.5 miles into space. During the late 1980's, there were serious studies about building a small spaceplane launched from the top of a modified 747-200 that has been fitted with a de-rated version of the Space Shuttle main engine; Rutan could apply what he learns from SpaceShipOne and build a small spaceplane that could carry as many as seven crew or its equivalent in cargo to the International Space Station. Indeed, I've heard of a company that proposes towing a fully-fueled spaceplane behind another large jet and then launching it at around 40,000 feet; because it launches at this altitude, the spaceplane needs far less propellants to reach low Earth orbit (LEO).

Re:Are Competitors Building Dead-End Technology?

[stiggle]

Theres the UK Starchaser which is a basic standard rocket style design, and in the true Brit fashion, a fairly amateur/volunteer project (like Thrust SSC).

Re:Are Competitors Building Dead-End Technology?

[seanthenerd]

Actually, I read in a PopSci article (right here) that Rutan does have plans for the SpaceShipOne/WhiteKnight, but that he wants others to build and commercialize them:

Rutan's historical model is Wilbur Wright's tour of France in 1908, which sparked tremendous growth in the industry. Rutan wants SpaceShipOne to kick-start a similar burst of innovation. Hence his ambitious post-X-Prize testing and demonstration plan: Fly every Tuesday for five months, 20 flights in a row on schedule, to determine the system's cost and reliability. Though he envisions everything from 10- passenger suborbital tour buses to a giant White Knight that uses eight 747 engines to launch a 300-ton spacecraft, Rutan says those are for others to build: "The Wrights didn't build the world's first airliner--they didn't need to," he says. "I hope people don't expect me to certificate a spaceship and offer rides. I want to be doing something more exciting by then."

Go, Burt!

Re:Are Competitors Building Dead-End Technology?

[reallocate]

Earlier, there was talk of sending a tweaked X-15 on a sort-of orbital flight. North American proposed using a 3-stage booster to send the plane on a single orbit flight. Maximum altitude to be 120 km., with a 75-km peigee. They figured the low altitude meant the X-15 could fly back in, avoiding the need for retrorockets. The pilot would eject and the plane would ditch in the ocean.

Knicker elastic powered X prize

[Dollyknot]

Three jet aircraft take off. Two jets at either end of a long piece of knicker elastic. The third jet would have the payload of a space rocket attached by a hook to the middle of the knicker elastic. When all three planes have reached their ceiling. The middle plane flies earthwards, the other two planes fly horizontaly in opposite directions, loading the knicker elastic with the mathematical maximum of energy. When this point is reached, the middle plane releases the space rocket. All the energy stored in the knicker elastic will be transfered to the space rocket. How fast would the space rocket be going before it fired its engine, how much fuel would it need to achieve escape velocity?

I am not a mathematician, nor a materials scientist, so I do not know how much energy can be stored in knicker elastic. But I'm sure that it can be released in an effective way to be able to claim the 'X' prize.

I will not die happy if I never see elephants dance the pas de deux. Or human beings achieve true bird like flight. Or humanity starts the herculean task of putting the earth back the way they found it. Come on lads parties over, lets clean the place up, and put all the trees back. I know a place where there is lots of space, lots of room, its very quiet, very clean, no bugs, and twenty four hours a day sunshine. No earthquakes, no typhoons, hurricanes, very few neighbours.

Success in the X-prize competition

[Krapangor]

...is a two edged sword.
On the one hand cheap and simple access to space would be great advancement for the entire human race.
On the other hand easily build space crafts mean easily build ICBM, too. While the carrying capacity wouldn't be enough for conventional nuclear weapons, it's surely enough for biological, chemical or anti-matter bombs.
So, a success in the X-price might be a step forward to more international terrorism, too.

If I was one of them fancy "dot-com" rich fellas..

[Braintrust]

... I'd be spending my moolah on propulsion technology research, as opposed to the more high-profile Drive For The X-Prize.

Dense and compact energy sources... hell, fund fusion research for a start... more powerful and efficent ion engines... I don't happen to be a rocket scientist, but you get the idea.

To me, the one who revolutionizes propulsion, will be the first trillionaire in history. Not to mention a true hero to future generations.

The name's Cochrane... Zefram Cochrane... it could be you...

I would like some interplanetary travel (at least!) before I pass from this place. Someone help me out...

Too much Star Trek!

[Omkar]

I believe that Slashdot is the only place where you can hear serious talk about international terrorism and antimatter bombs in the same post.

Re:Too much Star Trek!

[Anonymous Coward]

that Krapangor guy's just a successful troll, a lot of people keep modding his ramblings 'insightful,' gives you an idea of the quality of modding, overall...

Re:If I was one of them fancy "dot-com" rich fella

[Flounder]

I would like some interplanetary travel (at least!) before I pass from this place. Someone help me out...

Ralph Kramden: Bang! Zoom! Straight to the moon!

The answer to everything lies in 50's sitcoms and domestic violence.

Re:If I was one of them fancy "dot-com" rich fella

[Anonymous Coward]

Then get off your ass. There is nothing special about any one person working to get into space. It takes a lot of work and a lot of studying. (Not the school type.)

fuck /. mods

[Anonymous Coward]

the parent post should be modded up +5, Great post!

got to love this thought!

oh yeah i wanna fuck some 2 dollar sand niggah bitches!

good score

[Anonymous Coward]

gotta love this great post! mod up +5

Re:If I was one of them fancy "dot-com" rich fella

[AllUsernamesAreGone]

"It takes a lot of work and a lot of studying."

More importantly it also takes cartloads of cash - you can sit and think about propulsion systems until your arse turns blue, but all of it is for nothing if you never actually test one. And that takes cash, a lot of red tape fighting a team of engineers and probably some highly dangerous, restricted chemicals.

Armadillo and Scaled Componsites

[XNormal]

Carmack may be "open source", but Rutan is probably the most likely person currently participating in the X-Prize competition. This is the guy that designed, built, and flew the Voyager (the first non-stop around the world plane with no refuelling).

Building a single rocket recovered by parachute is simpler than building two complete aircraft.

I agree that Rutan's approach is more likely to lead to a safe and commercially viable suborbital tourist vehicle. But Carmack's approach still has a fair chance to win the X-Prize first. Carmack is taking a lot of shortcuts that a more advanced design like Rutan's simply can't use.

Re:Armadillo and Scaled Componsites

[Oggust]

I agree that Rutan's approach is more likely to lead to a safe and commercially viable suborbital tourist vehicle. But Carmack's approach still has a fair chance to win the X-Prize first. Carmack is taking a lot of shortcuts that a more advanced design like Rutan's simply can't use.

I don't agree at all.

Now, I can certainly see both sides' arguments in the SSTO vs TSTO debate, but using two stages to go suborbital is definetly not the way to this (affordable consumer spaceflight) in the long run.

OTOH, it might (probably will, too) be the best way to win the prize. But as a long term solution, no.

In order to be really cheap it must be simple, and staging is just a bunch of extra hassle you don't need.

/August

Reaching space is much easier than orbiting

[Beryllium Sphere(tm)]

There's an important difference between going up-and-down and attaining orbit.

To stay in orbit, you've got to accelerate to orbital velocity. That takes about an order of magnitude more energy than just lifting yourself out of the atmosphere.

Notice how long the shuttle's engines keep burning after it is fifty miles up.

That's part of the answer to the question about reentry heating. The business jet won't be braking from 18,000 miles per hour.

stuffing rockets...

[geoff lane]

...into the back of a business jet may not work, but stuffing rockets into the back of a surplus Concorde might...

Re:stuffing rockets...

[SWTP_OS9]

Hum... You may have something! It can take a heavy load on its surfaces, small, thin. Hum it could work!!! And be a grand way to end its service but introduce the next evelolution.

If a controled "POWER" reentry flight could be engineered into this then the reentry heat would not be needed to "burn off" orbital speed. IE kenetic into heat energy.

Re:stuffing rockets...

[jonhuang]

These surplus concordes you talk about.. where can I get one?

Here's my question ...

[SuperDuG]

Why is it that we're only hearing about this in ninche geek websites. Shouldn't "The average man's race for space" be newsworthy? I mean the race for the moon had nearly everyone with a television at the time glue to the newscast to see just how close everyone was getting NIGHTLY.

Armadillo and Scaled Composites have quite the financial backing and I think everyone believes that it's just a matter of time before either they succeed or take part in the most expensive darwin award to date. I'm kinda tired of the top news story being W's and Blairs lies and the "war in Iraq" that's supposed to be over yet we're still reportting casulties on both sides.

Everyone dreams of going to space, everyone has looked up in the night sky and thought I wonder what it's really like up there, and everyone at one time growing up pretended they were an astronaut/cosmonaut. I really wish the Ministry of News would declare this newsworthy beyound the nince websites and occassional backpage news blurb.

So who do I call, I'm curious, is there a director of the Ministry of News that declares everything in america newsworthy? Isn't it time that we started focusing on individual efforts for success rather than constantly dwelling on what's gone wrong for the last year? Did the war in Iraq stop these guys? Did september 11th (well legislation limiting their supplies sure didn't help)? Are they terrorists in disguise? NO NO NO NO NO, I want everyone to see that there's hope for the future and not everything is so dark and abismal.

Re:Here's my question ...

[No Such Agency]

Everyone dreams of going to space, everyone has looked up in the night sky and thought I wonder what it's really like up there, and everyone at one time growing up pretended they were an astronaut/cosmonaut.

Fortunately, by the time they grow up, most people have had these ludicrous, insane and unrealistic dreams beaten out of them by a financially gutted school system staffed with overworked, exhausted teachers, a government/media complex which constantly reminds us that bombers are a better investment than spaceships, and of course the neverending daily grind of merely surviving as a non-wealthy North American. After all, what would we have if everyone followed their dreams? Chaos, I tell you!

Re:Here's my question ...

[ArsSineArtificio]

and of course the neverending daily grind of merely surviving as a non-wealthy North American

I think that you haven't seriously considered what would comprise the neverending daily grind of merely surviving as a non-wealthy African, Asian, or South American.

The very poorest North Americans are wealthy by Third World standards. Heck, you've probably got running water and everything.

Re:Here's my question ...

[Centurion509]

> I really wish the Ministry of News would declare this newsworthy beyound the nince websites and occassional backpage news blurb.

Actually, in the year 2003 press coverage has started to pick up. If you pick up a July copy of Popular Science or Wired , the cover stories are about the X-Prize. And I'm certain that as the X-Prize teams near their launch dates, press coverage will pick up dramatically. And once the X-Prize is won -- well, that will be interesting.

Here are the articles:
Popular Science article and
Wired article

Further proof...

[No Such Agency]

Three jet aircraft take off. Two jets at either end of a long piece of knicker elastic.

Further proof that an already fairly amusing joke can always be made funnier by the use of British words.

Reinventing the Wheel

[Anonymous Coward]

Didn't the Germans research a lot of this during WWII? Also some Americans.

Guinney Pig #1

[Tablizer]

it doesn't look stuffing rockets in the back end of a business jet will build a legitimate contender.

But it could simplify live testing. "Sorry, Mr. Gates, but autopilot kicked in and is trying to take us into space. I don't know why."

Re:If I was one of them fancy "dot-com" rich fella

[An Onerous Coward]

Researching fundamentally new forms of energy is expensive, even out of the range of most billionares. Stretching current technology to the limits of human ingenuity, on the other hand, is relatively cheap.

If someone offered ten million for the first demonstration of an energy producing fusion reactor, it's unlikely anybody would be motivated who wasn't working on it already.

You're absolutely right.

[No Such Agency]

The very poorest North Americans are wealthy by Third World standards.

Of course this truth underlies any discussion of poverty and class in North America. But you can't dismiss anyone's poverty based on the fact that there are poorer people elsewhere, living under different circumstances. A laborer living on $1.50 a day in Kenya will take small comfort in the fact that there are people living on $0.75 a day in rural Eritrea. He'll still feel poor.

Attitude control

[maroberts]

Bear in mind however that the closest Chuck Yeager came to being killed while testing a plane was in the NF-104, and that's because of the tricky transition from attitude control by thruster to aerodynamic attitude control

Fly by wire may take all the "excitement" out of this transition, so mere humans don't have to worry about it (unless the avionics packs in, of course)

I have safety concerns, though.

[MtViewGuy]

But Carmack's approach still has a fair chance to win the X-Prize first. Carmack is taking a lot of shortcuts that a more advanced design like Ruth's simply can't use.

Given what I know about Armadillo Aerospace's rocket design, I have some serious concerns whether it will actually work as advertised. I mean, has Armadillo actually started constructing a rocket that can lift three crew members to 62.1 miles altitude, return safely, and do it again within two weeks?? Meanwhile, it appears that Scaled Composites' entry is well on its way to make an attempt at winning the X-Prize probably as early as November of this year!

I believe that the Starchaser team are well-advanced on constructing the Thunderbird rocket that will attempt to win the prize late this year. I think the race will come down to between Scaled Composites and Starchaser for the one to meet the X-Prize criteria.

Re:I have safety concerns, though.

[Centurion509]

>I mean, has Armadillo actually started constructing a rocket that can lift three crew members to 62.1 miles altitude, return safely, and do it again within two weeks??

The short answer is yes , the vehicle is almost done. Here's a picture of it parachuting to the ground during a recent drop test on July 5th: http://www.hobbyspace.com/AAdmin/Images/RLV/Armadi llo/dropTest-669801-R1-20A_md.jpg . (For more pictures of the vehicle, go to http://www.armadilloaerospace.com/n.x/Armadillo/Ho me/News?news_id=215 . For an article about the drop test, go to http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology /armadillo_test_030707.html .

But I must note that Scaled Composites will probably fly their vehicle to suborbital altitute before Armadillo does. John Carmack, leader of the Armadillo Aerospace team, posted some comments about his progress and schedule at http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=U TF-8&safe=off&frame=right&th=3e74ec8f14362b26&seek m=c0e0a1dd.0307071349.7e9778e0%40posting.google.co m#link7 .

>I believe that the Starchaser team are well-advanced on constructing the Thunderbird rocket that will attempt to win the prize late this year.

Actually, Starchaser's current schedule calls for the Thunderbird launch in late 2004. What you are probably referring to is the Nova rocket, which will be launched this year to a height of 30,000 feet, carrying one man. Check out http://www.hobbyspace.com/AAdmin/archive/RLV/PR/ME DIA%20ALERT_%20British%20Company%20to%20Unveil%20M anned%20Rocket%20Capsule.htm .

Open Source

[maroberts]

maybe not open source, but IIRC the Manhattan project did bring a huge number of scientists together who talked fairly freely amongst themselves. What Open Source tries to encourage is come sort of hive activity where the whole is more than the sum of the parts. If it's less, you're in trouble!

Light-headed idea.

[Anonymous Coward]

"Remember, by launching SpaceShipOne at over 50,000 feet altitude, that right there saves a tremendous amount of propellant needed to fly to the 62.1 mile altitude. It's the same method that allowed the relatively small X-15 with its XLR-99 rocket motor to reach over 354,000 feet, or 67.5 miles into space. "

Why not attach the plane to a high-attitude ballon? Make the going up process as passive as possible[1]. Then cut loose from there and start the engines.

[1] Using the fact that air is denser were you are, and lighter were you want to go.

Beano drive.

[Anonymous Coward]

"Dense and compact energy sources... "

We already have that. It's called the CowboyNeal bean drive. Many a pair of pants have felt it's full effect.

X Prize timing...

[Centurion509]

One of the greatest side-effects of the claiming of the X Prize will be something that no one could have predicted just a year ago:

The X Prize will be won while the space shuttle is grounded.

So what, you might ask. Well, it's a big deal. For years, various groups have been trying to persuade NASA to work with, not compete with,
private ventures. And NASA has always given many reasons to refuse, the biggest one being "when was the last time a private company flew a man in space on their own rocket... er, never?" Of course, that's a perfectly legitimate concern.

But when the X-Prize is won while the shuttle is grounded, I think it will send a big message to both NASA and the people in the Administration who hold the purse strings, and we might see some interesting changes in NASA policy, the kind of changes that might speed up the day when every middle class American can enjoy a trip into space for a reasonable price.

Cool, huh?

And it's clear that the X Prize is going to be won soon. Check out
this article, which describes Rutan's plans to fly into space by December.

Re:X Prize timing...

[FireAtWill]

That's a very interesting point, but the converse needs to be considered as well: People may die trying to claim the X Prize while NASA is in a cautious mode. This could send a far different message.

Re:X Prize timing...

[SWTP_OS9]

That would be intersting esp after a chunk of foam did that much damage in the test this week! YIPE!

A lot died trying to crossing the Alantic and but a simple designed driven by guts and a idea that won the day. Yes we dont fly in single person planes across the Alantic but use jets. Same with space. Some of these ideas actualy date back to the mid 20th century or more but with todays tech are possible and practical.

Be nice if they would boost the xprise money if you could go past the ISS and take a picture!

The shuttle is like any goverment project with too many items on the list and missing the basics of reuse and quick turanaround. Better to have those than something that can haull a ton but takes months to do it again if ever.

Re:X Prize timing...

[BiggerIsBetter]

...the kind of changes that might speed up the day when every middle class American can enjoy a trip into space for a reasonable price.

Personally, I'd like to see the day when any person from *anywhere* can enjoy a trip to space for a reasonable price.

Nitrogen thrusters

[maddogsparky]

I can't point you at the specific reference, but I believe they are incorporating cold gas thrusters, similiar to the MMU (manned manuvering unit) that astronauts use on space walks. Virtually all the X-prize vehicles are planning to use them (although I think the Black Armadillo relies on atmospheric drag for re-entry orientation).

Re:If I was one of them fancy "dot-com" rich fella

[Anonymous Coward]

To the first person who demonstrates an energey producing fusion reactor, I suspect 10 million wouldn't even register compared to the other offers that would come in.

Re:Armadillo? Ouch!!!

[sketerpot]

They don't break the ground; the specially designed nose cone crumples. They've run a test at the calculated velocity that they're expecting to have when they hit the ground---with an actual man inside. He said that it wasn't too bad, and the accererometer didn't give readings that sounded too unhealthy. Personally, I think that the most risky part of the landing is the wobbling that they saw in the helicopter drop test, and that's likely to go away if they fall farther. I assume that they hit the terminal velocity in their drop test and that falling farther will just give more time to damp the oscillation, and I hope I'm not wrong. Oh well.

Star chasing

[orbitalia]

You can see the main UK effort here (there are others but they dont seem to have come as far as this one practically).

They have launched a fairly large rocket recently, and have onboard video on the site for you to check out. I think the X prize is a great competition, and gives people the chance to "think out of the box", there has to be a cheaper way of getting into space (and back!) than the currently over inflated budget of the national space agencies. (I have worked in the space sectory for quite a few years and seen the absolute waste and paper shuffling of these organisations) Good luck to all the teams, may the best team win!

Here's the damn thing HTML Formatted

[DrMorpheus]

I'm posting this under my login, being the karma whore that I am. Next time I won't be so nice!

I mean, has Armadillo actually started constructing a rocket that can lift three crew members to 62.1 miles altitude, return safely, and do it again within two weeks??

The short answer is yes, the vehicle is almost done. Here's a picture of it parachuting to the ground during a recent drop test on July 5th.

For more pictures of the vehicle, go here. For an article about the drop test, go here.

But I must note that Scaled Composites will probably fly their vehicle to suborbital altitute before Armadillo does. John Carmack, leader of the Armadillo Aerospace team, posted some comments about his progress and schedule.

I believe that the Starchaser team are well-advanced on constructing the Thunderbird rocket that will attempt to win the prize late this year

Actually, Starchaser's current schedule calls for the Thunderbird launch in late 2004. What you are probably referring to is the Nova rocket, which will be launched this year to a height of 30,000 feet, carrying one man. Check out.

I bet you

[Anonymous Coward]

Cmdr. Taco wants to fire one of those penis-shaped rockets up his ass.

Manouvering jets

[anonymous cupboard]

The X15 needed manouvering jets as it did not have enough air on the control surfaces to maintain stability. The X15 was a plane designed for a rocket and it was still was hard to fly. I suspect Scaled Composites will need some more work. This is a very different plane to Voyager.