Slashdot Mirror
Interview w/Edward Castronova
scubacuda writes "/.ers interested in the recent editorial on real $ in MMORPGs might also be interested in a GrepLaw interview I just conducted with Edward Castranova (expert witness in the recent Black Hat Hacker Court) about how his work on synthetic economies affects larger law and policy issues on the Internet. Ted has some interesting thoughts, particularly how online game-based economics (Star Wars Galaxies, EverQuest, Lineage, etc.) will eventually serve as the bases for "real governments." Should mainstream economics journals take his work on gender and virtual economies seriously, Ted promises to eat his virtual hat."
"with", "slashdot" and "money" are all good words to abbreviate using symbols when you're in a hurry to submit a story. Good to know.
Shouldn't this be on interviews.slashdot.org and not games.slashdot.org?
You're right, I wouldn't steal a car. But if it were possible, I sure as hell would download one!
I have mixed reactions about analyzing MMORPGs as microcosms of the real world. First thing, half of the people playing them are below the age of 25 and a significant amount below 18, and almost all are drawn from middle to upper class backgrounds. The account names given with the credit card numbers might say otherwise (how often do kids under 13 check the "I'm a kid under 13" box?), but I'm not buying it. Secondly, the MMORPG market is still one specific sector of gamers, despite their success. The pool of players behind the characters does not include a proportionate amount of elderly people, non-technophiles, and the less nerdy. Yes, there are a lot of examples to the contrary, but in general you're drawing your players from the nerdy youths of the populace. So any speculations made about society based on MMORPGs can only really be used to accurately predict how a stereotypically (and in reality) more socially inept and fiscally sound portion of the population will react in a given situation. Additionally, I would hate to see MMORPGs turned into work. They're already moving that way with account and character selling, plus the leveling treadmill already in place to hook in addicts. I can see this going in a bad direction. "Billy, your sister made $500 selling her Dark Elf Cleric on EQ2 last week! Why aren't you working as hard as she is?" "Aw, mom, I just want to go outside and play! Don't make me go on EverQuest again!"
For an example, just look at the dismal failure that each "fix" was to Ultima Online's economy. As soon as the developers started "fixing" things, the economy ceased being a natural evolution, and instead a predictable system that the cheaters began to utilize. Anyone that did not make full use of each new exploit could not compete. Everyone left, and all UO is left with is about thirty or so thousand people engaged in an never ending cycle of beating the system. If Origin had just started booting the cheaters than they would still have a viable product.
It wasn't conducted by Slashdot, hence, it is not in their Interviews section. I.E. the interview wasn't driven by questions from the Slashdot community.
Eventually only 12 year olds willing to play games for 2$/hr will be benefiting from the games, instead of us legit OGs
Online worlds are obviously the best multipurpose computer simulations! The army monitors the activities of bad guys in Everquest, or so I've read, in order to learn more about the habits of real bad guys. A "sim mob boss" was recently interviewed on CNN, in a feature about "griefers." Everyone's using online worlds as proving grounds, too, such as what the article implies about economics. For example, online worlds gave me the imagination which fueled my unproduced television scripts!
I mean, I have my Master's in Economics, but Castronova is the kind of author we laughed at when reading their papers.
First, you have to past him cursorily giving a single sentence in an over 50 page paper on the most reasonable explanation why male avatars cost slightly more than a similar female one: men buy avatars so they will buy male avatars. An avatar isn't a choice of sex like he keeps trying to make it out to be. An avatar is a choice in representation. An avatar isn't your person, just a picture of your person. You don't like somebody photoshopping tits on your picture and circulating it, right? So why would you that to yourself?
This simple misrepresentation problem is endemic is that interview. I will definitely go read some more of his papers to see if that is the case though.
Then you have to look past his equating American fiat currency to in-game currency. A Fed Reserve Note is non-interest bearing government debt. It is backed by some nuclear warheads, some aircraft carriers, and many guns. In-game currency is backed by nothing similar.
Then you have to look past his Singularity post-humanism claims about the brain existing mostly in computers in 100 years. (QUACK ALERT). This is really what makes me want to just ignore the freak.
Then have you to look past his strange ideas of equating in-game actions to real-world actions. At one point he "shows" that without strong government the world turns to shit by pointing to some lawlessness in a game. Well, why is this even a valid comparison in the first place? IT'S A FUCKING GAME! You don't die. You don't really hurt somebody. The objective is to accumulate by beating the crap out of things.
All the MMORPS are just advanced versions of Monopoly. If someone cheats at monopoly, I don't sue them. How fucking hard is that to understand?
Oh well. I stopped reading after that. No need to waste time with this crap.
... I've played Asheron's Call for about 3 years now (I know it's a little out dated at this point). The attraction of the game has always been that it provides an opportunity to escape from the real world for a couple of hours now and again.
If economies start to merge, or the line between game and reality blur then the game becomes less and less attractive.
In the AC world there have been a number of people who have turned to eBay to auction off items that they have come by in game, many of these people have done well financially out of it. Unfortunately this means that (much like reality), those with the $$ end up with the game enhancing items and those who came for the game play generally lose out.
I sincerely hope that MMRPGs and reality are kept worlds apart permanently.
HERE:
More top stories at the top of the hour. Now back to NEXT@CNN.
Star Wars, Galaxies, Sims Online, Everquest, they're all called massively multiplayer on-line role-playing games -- that's a mouth full. And believe it or not, hundreds of thousands of people are playing them, but not everyone wants to play nice. Technology correspondent Daniel Sieberg is here to talk about a darker side to the online gaming -- Daniel.
DANIEL SIEBERG, CNN TECHNOLOGY CORRESPONDENT: Thanks, Fredericka. It's called griefing. Some online game players out there are jumping into these virtual worlds with the single purpose in mind: to harrass, bully, and cause grief for other players in the game.
Don't assume for a moment that just because these role games -- role playing games are about creating a utopia where you can meet and chat with new friends online, this is not just what it is about. With such huge numbers involved, these virual worlds have become like a pietry dish of functional and disfunctional social behavior.
Right now our own Scott Thomas is playing one of these games. You're playing the Sims Online, Scott, we're not going to call you disfunctional, but it's not all about rainbows and lollypops, there are some battles that go on this game.
SCOTT THOMAS, ONLINE GAMER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Correct, there's been an aspect of the game invented by the players who are interacting in the game. It's almost mafia style because they do hits on each other. They can hire a hit man on each other, and they just do different things that would allow them to enter into combat, such as blocking your screen or not allowing you to join a house.
SIEBERG: Making life miserable, basically, for somebody else who is the game.
THOMAS: Correct.
SIEBERG: A big part of it is interaction and chat and trying to meet new friends in the game, but right now, where are you? What are you doing right now?
THOMAS: What I'm trying to do is to join a house that will allow me to interact with people. It's full at the time. The game has become very popular since the beta release.
SIEBERG: About how many people are in the game at any one time?
THOMAS: It's really hard to say. All of these properties are populated from what I can see.
SIEBERG: And those are actual people. We should point out that all the little characters you are seeing, the people you are interacting with, those are real people that are playing all those characters just like you, right?
THOMAS: Correct. None of these are computer simulated at all.
SIEBERG: So there are some real problems. You have to keep you character alive. Try to keep him happey.
THOMAS: Correct you have to keep the fed, and bathed, and everything you do in real life.
SIEBERG: And let them go to the bathroom as well.
THOMAS: Correct.
SIEBERG: All right. Well we are going to bring in our guests, our first guests. They are Jennifer and Piers Matheson and they are in Las Vegas. They are joining us live. And Jennifer and Piers are essentially victims of thise phenomenon of griefing. Do you agree with that, first of all? Let's start off, what is grief, being griefed mean?
JENNIFER MATHIESON, ONLINE GAMER: What does griefing mean?
SIEBERG: Yes. Do you feel like you are a victim of some of this activity?
MATHIESON: Well, griefing in particular, has an awful lot to do with just coming at someone and harrassing them nonstop. It's very difficult to deal with and it can really disrupt your game.
SIEBERG: All right. Well, let's start, you both had a very popular character in the Sims Online and then you say that you essentially harrassed, you were picked on. Why do you think that was? What exactly what happened to you?
PIERS MATHIESON, ONLINE GAMER: All right. Let me break it down to you like this, there is two different forms of griefing, ok. There's the fun play, because you just want to mess
It's just illogical to do this kind of statistical analysis with the "true believers" in an already infinitesimal portion of the market.
That's not to say that new, admittedly odd, paradigms cannot develop with new technology. This is less transportation and communication though, and more to doodoo with economics. That is why this seems incredibly far-fetched IMHO.
Maybe rather than fight the way things are panning out, the game companies should be charging cash for things that players wish to buy in the world. If prices were not outrageous I think people would pay. As it is I am paying $25 every 3 months for an EQ account I don't use anymore (lazy me). I bet they would make more money by eliminating monthly use fees and instead charging small amounts for items from some vendors. I believe that they would have far more players if they didn't REQUIRE cash for regular play. Then they could hook players with BONUS equipment they could buy rather than spend 80 hours when players start the game killing puppies for whatever lame experience and small change you get.
His assertion that gender identity is a "choice" rather than an endowment is neatly contradicted by the relevant scientific disciplines. GENDER IDENTITY IS NOT A CHOICE. Gender EXPRESSION is a choice; nevertheless, you cannot "choose" if you want to feel like a man or a woman.
I am transsexual myself. I am a registered SlashDot user, but because of the widespread public prejudices and misconceptions (e.g. that we are all gay, cross-dressers, "faggots", "sinners", etc.) I am posting anonymously.
Gender identity is fixed in the brain (specifically, in the hypothalamus) prior to birth, or at some point in the very first years of life. (I'm talking maybe the first three or four, not the first twenty or thirty.) Scientists studying the brains of deceased transsexuals have found that male-to-female transsexuals possess FEMALE brain structures. Likewise, female-to-male transsexuals possess MALE brain structures. These structures are intrinsic to the makeup of the brain itself-- and cannot be altered. They were present regardless of whether or not the subject underwent any sort of transgendered therapy-- e.g. taking hormones, having a "sex change", etc. Again, these structures are fixed and unchangeable. The position of anyone who feels that gender identity (for example, in the case of transsexuals) can be "changed" (excepting through extreme brainwashing) is as untenable and scientifically bogus as those who feel that gay people can be "cured" of their sexual orientation. Incidentally, please note that sexual orientation and gender identity are different things altogether. Transexuals can be gay (or lesbian), straight, bi, or even asexual, just like anyone else. Think of sexual orientation as the "x axis" and gender identity as the "y axis". You can be at any point in that system.
The only "choice" a transsexual has is whether or not they choose to act on their inner needs and undergo "transition". Gender identity, in no cases (whether a transsexual or a "normal" person) is a choice. You can no more "choose" to be male or female inside (i.e. in your brain, where gender feelings originate) than you can "choose" to be smart, or dumb, or right-handed, or left-handed. It's something you're born with. So, yes, gender identity IS an endowment. However, it doesn't necessarily always coincide with one's genitalia.
In case you doubt me, please read the following entries from reputable scientific journals:
ARTICLE #1
ARTICLE #2
This is NOT a matter of "opinion". You cannot "feel" that atoms don't exist. You cannot "feel" that 2 + 2 makes 27.5. You likewise cannot "feel" that gender identity is a choice. It is simply not so. Science has demonstrated this quite clearly.
Don't reply to this either or I'll rip you a new slanty eye you dumb rice picker!
That's great. In the future, a 13-year-old named "a55ha1rZ" who bots 24 hours a day is going to be a government heavyweight.
Our intelligent designer has never created an animal that we couldn't improve by strapping a bomb to it.
Just a weird quote that came to mind. No offense meant :)
Well, sorry, but I think that science disagrees with you. At the part were you explain somthing is a FACT and not to be questioned. You alienate those who might care enough to be convinced. And no, it's not their problem if your transsexual zealotry is dismissed, it your problem (since your average /.'er isn't a trans-, i think)
Last I heard, whatever causes Identity is unknown. Philosphers and geneticists are still pondering what causes mainstream phenomena, such as homophobia or transphobia, or even heterosexuality.
Please stop thinking you are right because you are open-minded, or that you are open-minded because you are in a minority group.
games pose a problem that highlights the inadequacy of a purely scientific, mathematical, objectivist, positivist approach.
Anyone who doesn't realize that games are an object of mathematics doesn't deserve my time.
Fight or flight its all the same
Live to die another day
--Ryan
you think real politicians ahve any more credentials or any less greed?
i only have one word to back this up: California
PS arnold is running with arriana huffington also known as Satan's Lap Dog from politically incorrect w/ bill maher (sp) before he got canned for saying we're cowards for using cruise missles..
Come out dude (tte) and show your face. 10 years ago we might have seen the AC being used by those of a gay inclination - for the same 'public prejudice' reasons.
/.ers your not a freak (well - not any freakier than they are)
;-)
If we never see your faces, nothing shows us otherwise. Next time you post come out - and show some of your l33t Perl - that'll convince 90% of
I post anonymously to avoid being labeled a tranny-lover
Actually, if you'll look at this quote in context, you will find that this is at the end of the section when they were talking about the past, PREVIOUS TO this study. This study was supposedly the first that was made in relation to the expression of transsexuality.
Incidentally, this has nothing to do with "open-mindedness". It has to do with fair-mindedness. Transsexuals kill themselves all the damned time. It's really hard being TS, since everyone and their dog (and their "god") wants you to fight your deepest inner need and go on pretending you're a normal, happy 'male' (or female, in the case of Female-to-Males). TSes kill themselves because it isn't a choice, because it is a scientifically provable fact that gender identity is etched in the brain. (Hence the studies I noted in my post.) Being accepting of transsexuality, thus, is a matter of being fair-minded-- of accepting not just the "popular" scientific facts, like "atoms exist" or "the earth's crust is 8.2% aluminum", but the "unpopular" ones as well, like "transsexuality is neurological in origin" (and hence unchangeable and not a "choice").
...online game-based economics ... will eventually serve as the bases for "real governments."
That's assuming that those in power are in the market for a better way to do things - pretty questionable assumption in my book.