Slashdot Mirror
KernelTrap Interview With Rusty Russell
Jeremy Andrews writes "KernelTrap has interviewed Rusty Russell, a humorous and productive contributer to Linux Kernel development. Author of ipchains, netfilter/iptables, futexes, per-cpu counters, hot pluggable CPU support, and the new in-kernel module loading code, Rusty's efforts have had a significant impact on the upcoming 2.6 kernel. For a humorous sample of Rusty's wit, one only needs to look at his email signature which reads, 'Anyone who quotes me in their sig is an idiot. -- Rusty Russell.'" Rusty is a great guy, and this is a worthwhile read.
Author of ipchains, netfilter/iptables, futexes, per-cpu counters, hot pluggable CPU support, and the new in-kernel module loading code
We all know SCO/Caldera did that!
Rusty is a great guy. He's doesn't get the credit he deserves. I met him at a LinuxCon a few years ago. Most kernel developers are stuck up pricks, but not Rusty. And he tosses salad like a pro too!
For a humorous sample of Rusty's wit, one only needs to look at his email signature which reads, 'Anyone who quotes me in their sig is an idiot. -- Rusty Russell.
Now that's a perfect sig:Leader of the Kstrdup Core Team!
0x2b or not 0x2b, the answer is -1
JA: Digging through old lkml archives, I see that your first name is Paul. Is Rusty a nickname?
no I was left out in the rain as a child
Do not try to read the dupe, thats impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth
What truth?
There is no dupe
For those who doubted it all these years, /. proves me right!
In 1999 my signature read "Only idiots quote signatures". It ceased being funny after the millionth idiot quoted it so I changed it into a normal and informative signature. And thanks to Google I can also prove it. :-)
Antti S. Brax - Old school - http://www.iki.fi/asb/
How long have you worshipped the dark lord Satan?
he IBM Linux Technology Center is the misnomer which refers to the worldwide group within IBM whose mission is to "Accelerate the maturation of standard, architecture-independent Linux into the enterprise", or as we say "Make Linux Better". It's our job to contribute stuff where needed: from one point of view it's a way of collecting a paycheck while working full-time on what I love doing.
--------
Free your mind.
"Begging the question" is when you make a point, but have to accept the point before the logic that you use makes sense.
OK - I yanked my trusty Intel CPU out without powering off the box (and, yup, it was damn hot). Now what happens? Why isn't the patch working?
photo of Rusty, I feel compelled to ask him this question: How long have you worshipped the dark lord Satan?
But I don't see the humor in that. Then again, I never saw the humor in that stupid GNU is Not Unix recursion, either.
..no I can't
I thought a futex was short for FutonExtreme. I heard that they played with the notion of calling it Futon 2.0 Fast Speed, but the after a 30 million dollar study, they found out people like shorter names.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
JA: Is there a story behind your email signature?
Rusty Russell: The joys of working in an office: Chris Yeoh told me someone quoted me in their sig, on slashdot. Well obviously, I went and checked it out, and the guy had misspelled my name.
From this sample size of one, I determined that everyone who quotes me in their sig is mentally deficient.
Okay, who was the idiot?:-)
When your post get's modded +5 you're also a impressive person :)
I signature girls only!
You've never used GNU/Linux before, have you?
1f u c4n r34d th1s u r34lly n33d t0 g37 l41d
You are a troll. He was born in 1973. He designed Dec Alpha when he was 5 ?
Han-Wen Nienhuys -- LilyPond
Your point?
I'm not talking about gnu/linux, just linux, the kernel. Which is monolithic. Which requires a recompile every time theres a significant architecture change. Which requires most real hardware support to be bottlenecked through Linus' selection process. Which is utterly retarded if the goal is a flexible OS.
Zealots flame away, since obviously your beloved linux kernel is beyond criticism. It's still the truth.
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
JA: When I interviewed Andrew Morton I definitely got the feeling that you've impressed at least him. :)
Rusty Russell: That's such an amazing compliment, because I aspire be more like Andrew.
That's what makes a good community, people who inspire, impress and encourage each-other. I've noticed that the 'big name' hackers tend to be ones who want to inspire people, not shoot them down.
"Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys" P. J. O'Rourke
Could be a typo, maybe he meant to write 1988. Get your facts straight!
You worked with him in 1978? In the article he says he was born in 1973, making him 29 or 30, so in '78 he would have been 4 or 5. Was he really working at TeleSys Interactive that young?
Own up, who moderated this up as interesting, and what were you smoking?
Metaphors use "like or as".
You're busted, too pal.
By the grammar and usage police
Yeah, and maybe Sony helped design the DEC Alpha at Telesys. Maybe Datsun were using Amstrad equipment. Or maybe you've been trolled.
maybe Sony helped design the DEC Alpha at Telesys. Maybe Datsun were using Amstrad equipment.
There you go! You admitted you were wrong and you're better off for it. See? It wasn't that hard now, was it?
Cheers!
Except Amstrad = Alan M Sugar Trading Company. A UK manufacturer of crap electronics, and later on (after 1982?) home computers.
Hot pluggable CPU support ...
Now, that is what I call a technological advance! You can execute code in the kernel and THEN, afterward, plug in the cpu. Does somebody knows how they do this?!?
I think the quote: "Any technology indistinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced." applies well in this case
I'd rather be sailing...
So you admit it...
Why the hell are you always trolling here on /. about Linux when you know fuck all about it? Goddam you are an ignorant fucker.
For the record, you do not in fact need to recompile things everytime you add new devices. Distros come with pre-compiled kernels and modules, and precompiled kernels and modules are distributed quite frequently. Also, with some distributions, compilation is done automatically if you want.
Please go away and die.
Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken - Tyler Durden
With Hot Swap CPU being an experimental patch, is there a Hot Swap Memory patch in the works as well?
In some systems in order to swap the CPU's you have to remove some memory (and even IO) while you are doing the swapping.
Dear Sir,
please refrain from expressing your own personal bias towards corporations when discussing your point. Either contribute something constructive to this thread or please stay out of it.
Sincerely,
Mr Blinky
I never had to recomplie the knernel when I added a RAID card. Have you heard of moduels? And did nVidia go through Linus' selection process to get their GPUs and chipsets to work with the Linux kernel? Heck, you don't have to recompile the NT kernel (as if you'll be allowed to do so in the first place) whenever a new hardware is added to Windows, so why should you with Linux? You can complie the support into the kernel if you want or you can chose not to. Yes, it's called freedom to do whatever the hell that pleases you.
Only truth here is that you didn't do your research.
1f u c4n r34d th1s u r34lly n33d t0 g37 l41d
Dear Mr Blinky, have you ever purchased any of Amstrad's equipment? If so you will be aware that the description "crap electronics" is not a personal bias, but a fact based description of the companies produce. Please refrain from expressing your own inexperienced thoughts on other peoples comments.
I'm a nerd: "begging the question"
Really, wow I never knew that!
Let me go check windows update and see if theres a new NT kernel.
Oh wait, it's a dynamic kernel, it doesn't need to be replaced. It's merely a gatekeeper for periphery code that does the real work. You know, the way a good OS should be designed.
Yes?
http://www.arenafan.com/players/?player=1393
I'm willing to bet Rusty is the first person to both a pro football player and kernel developer
Heck, you don't have to recompile the NT kernel (as if you'll be allowed to do so in the first place) whenever a new hardware is added to Windows, so why should you with Linux?
THATS EXACTLY THE POINT YOU HALFWIT.
There is very little device specific code in the NT kernel, because it doesn't fucking belong there. The kernel should be an interface for drivers, not a static collection of drivers.
So, Rusty Russell is claiming that he is an idiot? I think he is lying.
Irene KHAAAAAAN!
a typo in your sig would have more effect.
try.....
Mensa member, bewhere of the high IQ.
or
Mensa member, be cautiou's of the high IQ.
HTH
Because he really has a low IQ, rite right?
Furthermore, the NT kernel is no longer a true Microkernel. A lot of stuff has been moved back into kernel space. So basically, the NT kernel is a Monolithic kernel with modules, just like the Linux kernel.
They are both upgraded in the same manner, ie. replaced with a new version.
The only deficiency the Linux kernel has w/regards to driver modules is that modules compiled for one version of the kernel won't necessarily work with another version. The kernel will complain, but you can force them to load.
Last I heard, the core kernel developers do not WANT to implement a method of making this easier, because that encourages binary-only modules. Some companies, eg. NVIDIA, are working around this by building their own source-based wrappers around binary modules. Installing these drivers is just as easy, sometimes easier, than installing drivers in windows.
Also, modules can be compiled against the existing kernel at any time. So instead of distributing binary drivers, drivers can be distributed as source, with a script to build and load them. This is often done completely transparently to the end user. This also often helps with stability and performance.
Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken - Tyler Durden
And what part of the freedom clause I mentioned did you get AC? Or shall I say stratjakt?
1f u c4n r34d th1s u r34lly n33d t0 g37 l41d
What the flying fuck does "freedom" have to do with a piss poor shitty kernel architecture left over from the 70s?
NT Kernel has built in drivers and utilites. Good luck trying to rip them out of the NT Kernel. What, did you actually thought that NT Kernel is small and efficent?
1f u c4n r34d th1s u r34lly n33d t0 g37 l41d
It is: the fact that we're doomed to hearing the same 'it belongs to SCO' joke attached to every single Linux-related story from for the rest of eternity.
What were you thinking?
I'd rather be sailing...
Your grasp of the English language is utterly pathetic. However, in reading this thread, I do agree with you in your argument with stratjackt ("Anonymous Coward", or possibly whatever cute aliases he ends up registering to reply to your comments with).
I am usually an "NT zealot"; but I honestly can't deny these statements. It's obvious there are embedded drivers and utilities.
Keep it up, Bull. It's only a matter of time before this fool either leaves or realizes he is beating a dead horse by even trying to argue his lies and bullshit (no pun intended).
G'day.
"For a humorous sample of Rusty's wit, one only needs to look at his email signature"
No pun intented towards Rusty, I do concider him to be a great chap, but to offer a signature as a proof of that?
I've seen tons of humorous sigs here after completely witless posts. And now that I think about it, this post is yet another proof of that concept.
1 Earth is warming, 2 It's us, 3 it's royally bad, 4 we need to take action NOW
>I'm not talking about gnu/linux, just linux, the kernel. Which is monolithic.
Not quite. Normal monolithics did not have any sort of loadable module support. If you've ever installed System V, you have to do a kernel compile for your destination machine. Linux sort of breaks the monolithic 'tradition' by allowing movable modules of kernel to and fro, even on hardware insert.
A good example of modular system is Hurd. Everything in the system is removable except that small kernel bit.
>Which requires a recompile every time theres a significant architecture change.
I'd expect so. After all, since there's no Linux kernel fat binaries, I'd have to recompile to go from X86 to Mips or G(x). If you're thinking about adding cards on the busses (which most will think), that wouldnt need a kernel compile unless you didnt have modules or up to date configs to run the semi-source (ala Nvidia) to run it against.
>Which requires most real hardware support to be bottlenecked through Linus' selection process.
True. It also provides that the maintainers have actually tested it for goodness. After all, anybody can make a module/kernel code. Whether it passes LKML scrutiny is Linus' or the section maintainers discresion.
>Which is utterly retarded if the goal is a flexible OS.
That comment was utterly retarded. See? I just stated my opinion. They provide nothing to a logical argument.
>"Zealots flame away, since obviously your beloved linux kernel is beyond criticism. It's still the truth. ", The zealot proclaims.
I agree with the IBM comment. But this looks like an attempt by a Slashdot wanna-be to get his name out there. Come up with your own idea, don't copy a great site and attempt to call it your own.
Flexible bare-metal recovery for Linux/UNIX
You are net here right?
I think I'll change my sig to:
"Anyone who quotes Rusty Russell in their sig is an idiot."
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
I recently put a different sound card in a system running Slackware. I have been listening to music from this system. I did not recompile the kernel. So why is my sound card working?
This has been the least interesting thread on the front page for some time....I mean, I'm browsing at +1, and most of the posts are jokes about SCO, Russell's sig, and the name "Rusty."
Whereof we cannot speak, thereof we must be silent. --Ludwig Wittgenstein
Holy christ. You are always wrong. It's just incredible.
Loadable modules means no recompilations. Do you understand this? I installed a new video card the other day. Kudzu found it, and installed the driver. The driver is a module which was loaded by the kernel, and away I went.
You make so many posts, and they are always incoherent, incorrect flamebait. Being so stupid must hurt.
I wrote lots of little things here and there: an example is the compressed loopback module I wrote as a throwaway project in 1999. I found out recently that it's the basis of Knoppix, which is an incredibly impressive project. I could never have done that: is that cool or what?
...Right in the spirit in which he closed the interview:
Impressive little "throwaway project"!!
JA: Is there anything else you'd like to add?
Rusty Russell: I love that noone needs my permission to take my code and do something cool with it, and someone else can do the same with that code. I love that an "end user" is usually only a few hours work away from being an active documenter, bugreporter, web-mistress or coder in most projects.
As a result, I despise anything which artificially raises barriers to entry for programmers and users. Everything from stupid software patents, to bad user interfaces, cabalesque knowledge and crummy code. These quotes highlighted the interview for me but the whole thing was great.
Creating/Adding/Updating a module DOES mean recompilation.
/lib/modules and type depmod -a and off I go, right?
.vxd as they all use the same common interface.
Oh look, the tulip net driver has been updated. Well, since I have no compiler on my router box, I'll just download a precompiled tulip.o into my
Wrong. Kernel symbols dont match.
Linux' current implementation of modules necessitates me looking into my crystal ball and deciding at compile time which pieces of hardware I'll be using/replacing in the future.
Whether the executable portion of the device driver is in a module or the kernel is pretty much irrelevant, as the symbol table in the kernel always requires recompiling.
Contrast to virtual device tables under Windows, where you can drop in any old
Which requires most real hardware support to be bottlenecked through Linus' selection process.
Bullshit. You can modprobe in just about any drivers you need. Further, distros can compile them in as they see fit. They only have to release the driver code, which, oh wait, YEAH! It's already out there. Linus approval is not needed to add drivers!
Zealots flame away...
Well, you didn't have much credibility before, now you have less / zero.
Computer Science is Applied Philosophy
So I don't have a module for my sound card? I thought linux drivers could be compiled in the kernel or loaded as modules. I never would have thought I could learn something from people as stupid as you two fucking idiots. Oh wait, I didn't.
"..hot pluggable CPU support.."
So I can unplug the sucker while its po7HUD&*A))A
[NO CARRIER]
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
- ARTHUR C. CLARKE, The Lost Worlds of 2001. (Dutton)
a: my bike!
Depends really. You *can* update a driver, recompile it, and insert without changing the kernel. How do you think people write modules, recompiling the whole kernel every time? No, they vi, gcc, insmod, rmmod, vi, gcc, insmod...
Besides, Windows is static, and Linux is getting better.
But he's a bad bad man when it comes to laptops. According to his ozlabs friends, he's destroyed more than anyone elses. This is a pictures of his powerbook G4 *sob* the poor thing.
...he might have fitted it with a split system, so the box itself is actually cool - it's only the other half of the split, sitting outside his (glass) window, that's radiating like fury.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
...then you'll have "steaming hot buttered pluggable CPU support, with real strawberries!"
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Ah... so Windows 2003 is running the same kernel as NT 4.0?
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Having just surfaced from recovering a dead OpenServer 5.0.5 system onto new hardware (a very Quixote experience), I feel compelled to say: "Amen, and amen!" Reconfigure a serial port? No worries, that's a kernel relink, and an environment rebuild, and... oh, yes, a reboot. It feel far to much like fixing MS-Windows.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
I will never forget the 1st chapter on the IpTables-howto. It writes: "Who the hell are you, and why are you playing with my kernel?" :)
This guy r0x0rz
My english is sow-sow. Sowhat?
> Too bad he's such a dick about supporting the libiptc API.
I haven't touched that API in ages, but it's pretty horrible. This came up at the last netfilter summit, and it's becoming a big problem. Harald did some excellent work on his rework, but it's fundamentally trying to do two different things: support extensions which are in the kernel, and support the command language extensions required for iptables itself. This shows up clearly when you want to use it for something other than iptables.
> It's pretty confusing to use, and his asshole wit shows up in what little documentation there is.
*shrug* There's only so much you can do with documentation. What's needed is a rewrite: fortunately, Harald's plkttables looks promising, unfortunately, it's a long way off 8(. The documentation which is there is about writing extensions, not using the library directly.
As for the wit, I agree: it's not for everyone, and can make bad documentation worse.
Cheers,
Rusty.