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Using RFID To Prevent Mad Cow Disease

prostoalex writes "Associated Press suggests that the United States might be on the move to create a centralized animal database that would track all sorts of information about the farm animals, including their origins. RFID technology comes into play, apparently, with cheap tags that could be assigned to animals right after birth and special scanners capable of retrieving the RFID and fetching the data from the centralized database."

75 comments

  1. Not Might Be... by pr0c · · Score: 3, Insightful

    They are working on a national ID program as seen here http://www.usaip.info/ it is nothing new. Its been in the works for years and we've been using a similar system (of which the national system will basted from) in North East Michigan to control and eradicate bovine tuberculosis. The USDA gave a 1.3 million dollar grant to start the program in N.E. Michigan in 2001 and we've been in full force since 2002. You think slashdotters are paranoid about RFID? Try RFIDing cattle..

    1. Re:Not Might Be... by pr0c · · Score: 1

      Pardon my typos, should have previewed =]

      Real questions are welcome, email me and I can describe any part of the program.

    2. Re:Not Might Be... by shaitand · · Score: 1

      "Try RFIDing cattle.."

      I fail to see the difference, the average human sadly is cattle. Though not bred to physical conformity, they are brainwashed to a conformist system of ethics, morals, ideals, thoughts, and dreams.

      I believe that this is a large part of why the average iq is in double digits when the potential of every human mind is far greater. We are taught NOT to think outside the box, except where the double digit holder in charge wants us to, and by that point we are so used to thinking inside it it's found to be difficult.

    3. Re:Not Might Be... by P-Nuts · · Score: 1
      I believe that this is a large part of why the average iq is in double digits when the potential of every human mind is far greater.

      Isn't the average IQ 100 by definition?

    4. Re:Not Might Be... by shaitand · · Score: 1

      I was mispoken, if AVERAGED the IQ SHOULD be 100 (although I'd be suprised if that holds up I haven't checked it). However the MAJORITY of individuals have an IQ of 80 or below.

    5. Re:Not Might Be... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If the majority of individuals have an IQ of 80 or below, than 100 probably wouldn't be the average anyway unless it's a very slim majority with a large portion that fall at or above 100 with a sizable portion at MUCH higher than 100.

      They get the average of 100 by having a sample of people take the tests. There is also a margin of error, of course. Also, IQ tests done on adults are less reliable than those done on younger people. IQ tests theoretically test a person's potentional, not intelligence.

      Scores can also vary from test to test.

    6. Re:Not Might Be... by jhillyer · · Score: 1

      Right, nothing new, and often done on the farm. Beef has always been tagged, either a scar on the arse, a tag on the ear, or a coil-chip under the skin. We've always known from where the cow came, and its parents from a century before, unless a neighbor's bull broke a fence to score some hindside. Extra tracking will likely help whoever manages the database, as a commercial enterprise, but of little improvement other than prosecution.

    7. Re:Not Might Be... by jhillyer · · Score: 1

      IQ is the dynamic reasoning intelligence. It should sample physical experience, not poison-ivy-league knowledge. Potential and compassion is intelligence, independent of age. An exam that questions specialist knowledge, not a reasoning, is non-IQ. However, the exam may provide the knowledge/data, then measure the subject's extrapolation as a measure of IQ.

  2. What if you eat the RFID? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    special scanners capable of retrieving the RFID

    Would they track it thorough your intestines?

    "Pardon me sir, but you are currently digesting Mad Cow meat. Please stop!"

    1. Re:What if you eat the RFID? by dchamp · · Score: 2, Funny

      I was just wondering if RFID tags were robust enough to survive the meat grinder. :/

  3. Finally... by Stigmata669 · · Score: 1

    we're using RFID tags for something that can't complain about privacy.

    --
    Yawn.
    1. Re:Finally... by jag164 · · Score: 2, Funny

      Oh really? Well I'm a life member of PETA and this a disturbing invasion of a bovine's privacy. I'd further like to *BANG*...

    2. Re:Finally... by Txiasaeia · · Score: 1

      No privacy? I'm a cow you insensitive clod!

      --
      Condemnant quod non intellegunt.
  4. like a national ID card? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    A possible conversation overheard sometime in 2006:

    Jim: Well Bob, since 2003 the mad cow epidemic has claimed 150,000 lives and forced the destruction of billions of dollars worth of cattle. In fact, there is no beef market in the united states any more and the global recession can be linked directly to that.

    Bob: Yes, Jim, what a terrible waste.

    Jim: But I have some good news. Thanks to the multi-billion dollar animal RFID program started in early 2004, we can now identify the cow that began the whole horrible chain of events. In fact I can even pull up her picture here on my smartphone.

    Bob: Wow, her picture and everything? Cool! Too bad this technology didn't help us prevent the disaster.

    Jim: Yup. But my stock in RFIDCorp is WAY the fuck up!

  5. Next Step by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Next step: tag babies as they are born. Now the CDC can track diseases. Its for your health after all.

  6. Another spike into the family farm's heart by ic0wb0y · · Score: 5, Interesting
    Let's get the basic facts out in the open. MCD is caused by feeding cows dead cows. The only cows that get fed this way are chicken coop cows in billion dollar agri corp controlled farms and ranches, who are doing everything they can to control all land and farms-and water. The open range cattle do not get MCD-ever. It's why UK got it so bad, no open range farming any more.

    Who takes the brunt of every bad event in farming? The family man.

    Agri business is a giant monopoly who has fought for many years trying to keep feeding dead cows to save a few pennies a pound-now they are saying that "oh, $25 a cow for RIFD will save the world from (the disease they caused) these rogue ranchers." the lobbiests cry. It's all PC these days.

    I was in Ft. Collins one time. I was picking up a load of cattle. The cows were so gigantic I thought I'd woken up in a dream. A regular steer was so massive the poor thing couldn't even walk with out struggling. At least 500 lbs larger than normal. It was of course not a good family ranch, it was in a giant corporation feedlot. These criminals should be put to jail-and one day they will be.

    It can lay dormant for up to 30 years before MCD affects a human. If you ate at McDonalds yesterday, their is a chance within 30 years you'll be acting like, yes-a mad cow. I've seen videos of victims. Sad indeed. 95% of all beef exports have been halted. Beef prices will plummet to 50 cents a lb. MMm. We'll be consuming beef like mad men.

    1. Re:Another spike into the family farm's heart by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      MCD is caused by feeding cows dead cows.

      ...

      The open range cattle do not get MCD-ever

      This is not necessarily true. Whether or not BSE(or MCD) is caused only by injesting cows is still unknown. It is possible that BSE occurs randomly in bovine populations just as CJD does in humans.
    2. Re:Another spike into the family farm's heart by Quikah · · Score: 2, Informative

      Feeding cows dead cows was banned in 1997.

      --
      Q.
    3. Re:Another spike into the family farm's heart by Meat+Blaster · · Score: 1
      Important reading.

      I was pretty sure we banned that stuff too, but apparently the enforcement of that ban has left something to be desired.

    4. Re:Another spike into the family farm's heart by ic0wb0y · · Score: 2, Informative
      It was banned everywhere but the US. Just today (12/30 MSN.COM) the USDA had to publicly step up and announce a (minimal) ban on certain types of feed made from dead cows, called downers.

      The US (ag corporations only) have so much money into this process that they kept the procedure from becoming banned all this time fully knowing that this very type of situation destroyed the independent cattleman as they were known in all other countries for years.

      But, this was a perfectly timed event. A move is being made on American ranchers this very moment in history and their plight will be the same as the UK's private property rights. This is not new news, there have been Mad Cow discoveries as far back as 8 years in the US. many, and I do mean many, of the BUsh administration's cabinet are ex Monsanto executives. What it is now is a strategic land and power grab-much akin to what the "well meaning" Dawes Act of 1887 which was imposed and in 10 years that "built in system" in it's design finished off the Indians for good.

      Look, if I am a "terrorist" for carrying around a Farmers Almanac, then what should the crime be for causing billions of dollars in losses to cattleman because my corporation poisoned them with bad downer cattle, and killed a few people while I was at it? I guess he has the biggest check wins.

    5. Re:Another spike into the family farm's heart by DerekLyons · · Score: 1
      Beef prices will plummet to 50 cents a lb. MMm. We'll be consuming beef like mad men.
      Um, no. At U$.50/lb, nobody will bother to produce any beef. Not agri-business, not family farms, nobody. (And frankly, the quoted stated is the least innaccurate in your whole screed.)
    6. Re:Another spike into the family farm's heart by straybullets · · Score: 1

      www.themeatrix.com

      --
      With that aggravating beauty, Lulu Walls.
    7. Re:Another spike into the family farm's heart by Hard_Code · · Score: 1

      The ban only applies to feeding that excess remains to the SAME ANIMAL. I have it on good word from a soon-to-be-vet who just attended a lecture on that exact topic that "mad cow disease" first entered the cow population through SHEEP remains (scrapies). So maybe you can't feed the cow feed back to cows, but you can feed it to chickens or other animals.

      So guess what? You think you are safe by just not eating beef? Think again. America has to thank large corporate agribusiness to whom you have given your tacit approval for all these years. (Oh yeah, and keep giving money to Republicans because they're for "farmers" right? ....right?)

      Me...i'm a vegetarian so I feel a bit safer, BUT the jury is still out on what prions can effect, so it might turn out milk and cheese are also at risk. Who the fuck knows - we allowed this to happen.

      --

      It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
    8. Re:Another spike into the family farm's heart by ic0wb0y · · Score: 1
      Me...i'm a vegetarian

      You may have a life jacket, but when the ship goes down, you're still going to get wet.

    9. Re:Another spike into the family farm's heart by pr0c · · Score: 1

      "Who takes the brunt of every bad event in farming? The family man."
      The average family man farmer typically has half a million dollars to a million dollars worth of equity. They don't even keep records and 9 out of ten are clueless. There is no room for many of the typical family farmers anymore. If you can't do something as simple as keep records (something required of EVERY business) and you end up going out of business thats just too bad. I have no sympothy for producers who run a poor business, its their own problem. Poor business practice == out of business.

      "...oh, $25 a cow for RIFD ..."
      Before you make ignorant comments about how much RFID costs perhaps you should look into it. Tracing alone costs this country millions of dollars, and RFID eliminates much of that. RFID also makes disease testing administration and related tasks much less expensive. RFID in fact pays for itself most of the time. There is many more intended uses for RFID in livestock than mad cow disease. There is bovine tuberculosis, scrapies, foot and mouth (god i hope that doesn't land here..) and many other foreign disease to trace and test for.

      The system describe in this article has little to do with BSE itself. http://www.usaip.info/ and Http://www.nationalfair.com are both useful.

    10. Re:Another spike into the family farm's heart by ic0wb0y · · Score: 1
      Um, no. At U$.50/lb, nobody will bother to produce any beef. Not agri-business, not family farms, nobody. (And frankly, the quoted stated is the least innaccurate in your whole screed.)

      So, 95% of all US meat export's have been outlawed today creating a massive surplus and you don't think the price of cattle products will drop dramatically for those inside the borders? Wow, you are a bit naive. Only the agricorps and their investors will be capable of riding this one out.

    11. Re:Another spike into the family farm's heart by ic0wb0y · · Score: 1
      Feeding cows dead cows was banned in 1997.

      Both Canada and the United States banned the feeding of the muscles and bones of most animals to cows and sheep back in 1997, but unlike Europe left gaping loopholes in the law. For example, blood is currently exempted from the Canadian and the U.S. feed bans. You can still feed calves cow's blood collected at the slaughterhouse. In modern factory farming practice calves may be removed from their mothers immediately after birth, so the calves are fed milk replacer, which is often supplemented with protein rich cow serum. Weaned calves and young pigs also may have cattle blood sprayed directly on their feed to save money on feed costs. For more information on this and other risky agriculture practices please see http://organicconsumers.org/madcow/GregerBSE.cfm

      And the Canadian and U.S. feed bans also allows the feeding of pigs and horses to cows. Cattle remains can be rendered down and fed to pigs, for example, and then the pig remains can be fed back to cattle. Or rendered cattle remains can be fed to chickens and then the chicken litter, or manure, can be legally fed back to the cows.So the fact that according to the USDA the most infectious tissues of the U.S. mad cow case, the brain, spinal cord, and intestines, "were removed from this animal and sent to rendering" is not necessarily reassuring

    12. Re:Another spike into the family farm's heart by ic0wb0y · · Score: 1
      Before you make ignorant comments about how much RFID costs perhaps you should look into it. Tracing alone costs this country millions of dollars, and RFID eliminates much of that.

      Have you ever heard the phrase "Problem, Reaction, Solution"? A group creates chaos, the reaction erupts, and then they conveniently offer a solution. Pimps do it to their ho's, Caeser did it with the Christians. It's an old trick, and the more people involved, the easier it is to pull off. Do you enjoy that type of society for your kids. Let me guess, you're a punk who has no kids.

    13. Re:Another spike into the family farm's heart by DerekLyons · · Score: 1
      So, 95% of all US meat export's have been outlawed today creating a massive surplus and you don't think the price of cattle products will drop dramatically for those inside the borders? Wow, you are a bit naive.
      No, I understand economics. Selling even cheap cuts of beef at U$.50 a pound represents a net loss. Nobody sells at a net loss, especially when such a pricing structure will lead to a backlash when prices return to normal. (And the biggest consumers of beef, the food industry, can't reduce their prices much as the beef that goes into their products is only a small fraction of their total costs.)
      Only the agricorps and their investors will be capable of riding this one out.
      The ban on export probably won't hurt the real family farms a bit, as their markets aren't export. (This statement requires the 'real' qualifier, as most soi-disant 'family farms' are really single-owner agricorps, not actual 'family farms'.) Oh, the ban will be blamed for a lot of failures, but it will only be responsible for a small fraction, and an indirect cause for a somewhat larger one. A reality of business that few seem willing to adress is that most of them fail even without external forces.
    14. Re:Another spike into the family farm's heart by ic0wb0y · · Score: 1

      (And the biggest consumers of beef, the food industry, can't reduce their prices much as the beef that goes into their products is only a small fraction of their total costs.)

      Reducing the price of a Big Mac from 1.00 to .99 cents can double the sales becuase of numbers alone. (ok, not double, but you get the idea, dropping prices sell)

      The ban on export probably won't hurt the real family farms a bit, as their markets aren't export. (This statement requires the 'real' qualifier, as most soi-disant 'family farms' are really single-owner agricorps, not actual 'family farms'.)

      No, family farms (ok, I use the term loosely--i.e. any independant grower/rancher)sell directly to the feedlots, who sell to the Corps for constistent pricing to satisfy the local bankers. Another example would be deregulation of trucking. An independent trucker makes a bit of cash at the end of the day to send home to the wife. JBHunt, makes a profit of $6.00 per day. Add it up. The competition makes $6 a day, an independent requires $20. An Independent has 1-5 trucks. JBHunt has 20,000.

      okay--fair is fair, the consumer gets his Chinese goods at a lower cost--I'll give you that. But holy hell, man--where is you're sense of class? I'd mucher rather hang with a group of Minutemen than Mao.

    15. Re:Another spike into the family farm's heart by /dev/trash · · Score: 1

      True. But feeding chickens dead cows, and then scraping the chicken shit up and feedign THAT to cows is still legal.

  7. Why bother? by psyconaut · · Score: 2, Funny

    When you can just conveniently blame Canada?

    -psy

    1. Re:Why bother? by JonMartin · · Score: 2, Offtopic
      When you can just conveniently blame Canada?

      Because we are getting a little tired of it.
      Brief summary of what we have been wrongly blamed for lately.
      Missed opportunity to help both our industries.

      --
      Serve Gonk.
    2. Re:Why bother? by shaitand · · Score: 1

      oh give me a break, everybody knows it's always you damn canadians behind it.

    3. Re:Why bother? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is moderated as funny, but I agree. In ALL cases of B.S.E. so far it's been Canada's fault. I think the only solution to this is to ban cattle and feed imports from Canada, until they clean up their act.

    4. Re:Why bother? by psyconaut · · Score: 1

      I should probably mention I'm Canadian, and that was sarcasm ;-)

      -psy

    5. Re:Why bother? by psyconaut · · Score: 1

      *ALL* cases? There's been one case in the U.S. and one suspected case in Canada....

      Feeling a little jingoistic today, are we? ;-)

      -psy

  8. hypeof(RFID) == hepeof(XML) by utahjazz · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Yes, RFID is the key to this technology. Now that we have RFID, we can track cows. Prior to RFID it was virtually impossible to have a database of cows. But now, with the invention of RFID, tracking cows is trivial.

    1. Re:hypeof(RFID) == hepeof(XML) by -Maurice66- · · Score: 1

      I would say: bullsh!t...

      RFID is NOT the key! the administration of identification throughout the foodchain is. You need to tag cows, but feedings. etc too. Then you would be able to predict wether a cow or hamburger could have BSE or not. Identification of cows is already in place in a lot of countries... US is lagging here.

      M

  9. Here's a really effective cure to Mad Cow Disease: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Stop feeding cows other cows. I have a feeling they'll be willing to go vegetarian.

  10. know how it started? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Someone in africa ate monkey brains and got infected. All bad shit comes from africa, aids, ebola, mad cow, that flesh eating bacteria...

  11. The one thing worse than a mad cow... by mnmn · · Score: 1

    ...is chipping your teeth on small ceramic chips while enjoying a steak.

    --
    "Give orange me give eat orange me eat orange give me eat orange give me you." -Nim Chimpsky
  12. This is not new news, there have been Mad Cow disc by quintessent · · Score: 1

    Really? Can you elaborate?

  13. Wrong - Cows still eat meat by quintessent · · Score: 1

    Only diseased animals and high-risk tissues are restricted.

    Sen. Dick Durbin, an Illinois Democrat who requested the GAO report, isn't satisfied with the response by the FDA or the Agriculture Department, which monitors safety of meat and animal health. Durbin plans to introduce a bill in January to further restrict the use of diseased meat or high-risk tissues in animal feed.

  14. bleeding heart Republican by penguin7of9 · · Score: 1

    in billion dollar agri corp controlled farms and ranches, who are doing everything they can to control all land and farms-and water.

    Yeah, big agribusinesses are bad. They cause family farmers to lose their businesses, produce artificially enhanced products, change everybody's way of life, and sometimes make products that are bad for you?

    So what? That's true of plenty of other businesses, too.

    I see no reason to get particularly worked up about the loss of a bucolic way of life for family farmers when most of the rest of the population has been living with such changes since the beginning of the industrial revolution. Get used to it.

    If you want to do something about it, work towards social reforms and policies that protect everybody, not the minority of the population that happens to be in electorially important, thinly settled agricultural states. Even better, exercise your choice as a buyer of products.

    If you ate at McDonalds yesterday, their is a chance within 30 years you'll be acting like, yes-a mad cow.

    If you ate at McDonalds yesterday, you have already acted like a mad cow.

    And what are you complaining about anyway? If you eat at McDonalds, you have already made your choice to support an industrial food infrastructure: industrial cooking of products derived from industrial farms. If you wanted to support family farms, you would cook for yourself or eat at businesses that buy from family farms. There are plenty of organic restaurants, after all. But, oh no, those are probably far too Birkenstock for you--all the wrong people go there, right?

    And keep things in perspective: your chances of actually catching mad cow disease from eating meat are virtually nil; they are miniscule even for infected animals.

    1. Re:bleeding heart Republican by fmaxwell · · Score: 1

      If you eat at McDonalds, you have already made your choice to support an industrial food infrastructure: industrial cooking of products derived from industrial farms. If you wanted to support family farms, you would cook for yourself or eat at businesses that buy from family farms. There are plenty of organic restaurants, after all. But, oh no, those are probably far too Birkenstock for you--all the wrong people go there, right?

      You ever try to find a drive-through at an organic restaurant when you are running late for work or only have 20 minutes to grab lunch? How easy are they to find when you are on an interstate highway that's running through a rural area?

      McDonalds is a known quantity. People know what they serve, know what the food costs, and obviously find it palatable. McDonalds also has cleanliness and food safety standards that far exceed state-mandated minimums. A state health inspector that my friend knew said that McDonalds were the most sanitary restaurants that he inspected - by a long shot. By contrast, the vegetarian, organic, Indian restaurant that I used to eat at was closed down by the health department after multiple violations (somwthing I only learned of years later). I'd much rather have a cheeseburger that's been prepared in sanitary conditions than eat aloo chole that's laden with bacteria.

      Find me a nationwide chain of organic restaurants that have drive-throughs, impeccable standards of cleanliness, internal food safety inspectors, good tasting food, and reasonable prices and I'm a convert.

    2. Re:bleeding heart Republican by lga · · Score: 1

      In contrast to the parent comment, McDonalds in my local town of Colchester, UK, is famous for working with sewage flooding the kitchen.

      Just in case anyone still considers McDonalds worth eating in.

    3. Re:bleeding heart Republican by penguin7of9 · · Score: 1

      You ever try to find a drive-through at an organic restaurant when you are running late for work or only have 20 minutes to grab lunch? How easy are they to find when you are on an interstate highway that's running through a rural area?

      Well, as Republicans are so fond of pointing out: you have to take responsibility for your own actions.

      If you are late for work, it's because you got up late. If you only have 20 minutes for lunch, you could pack lunch at home and bring it with you.

      McDonalds is a known quantity. People know what they serve, know what the food costs, and obviously find it palatable.

      Yes, and McDonalds is cheap and predictable because they use industrial food preparation throughout, including raising the cattle.

      Find me a nationwide chain of organic restaurants that have drive-throughs, impeccable standards of cleanliness, internal food safety inspectors, good tasting food, and reasonable prices and I'm a convert.

      Easy: cook at home and take the food with you. It's cheap, you know exctly what goes into the food, and the level of cleanliness is as high as you desire.

      Maybe, eventually, when people like you stop eating at McDonalds, that chain of organic restaurants can finally start competing.

      But instead of taking responsibility for your own actions, you want the government to step in and regulate McDonalds in a way that fits your world view because you are too lazy to take action yourself. Never mind that either the taxpayer needs to foot the bill or that it will greatly increase the cost of that McDonalds meal.

      I'm actually all for small family farms, if they are run responsibly. But I disagree with your reasoning: a family farmer has no more right to have his way of life preserved at taxpayer expense than a programmer has the right to have his job not shipped to India or a cashier has the right not to have his job replaced by new technologies. Furthermore, subsidies are not the answer: they just lead to corruption.

      If you want to institute regulations that require all restaurants to use organically grown food and free range animals, that's just fine with me. But let the market decide on how to comply with that regulation most efficiently. It might well turn out that the most efficient way of obtaining organically grown food is to import it from small farms in Mexico.

      And until such regulations come through (which is probably a long time), there are plenty of things you can do yourself: bring your own food for eating on-the-go and plan ahead for eating at restaurants that fit with your worldview for when you go out.

    4. Re:bleeding heart Republican by fmaxwell · · Score: 1

      If you are late for work, it's because you got up late. If you only have 20 minutes for lunch, you could pack lunch at home and bring it with you.

      It must be nice to have unlimited time and never have anything unexpected happen. My life doesn't work like that. Sometimes I oversleep and don't have time to cook a healthy meal. Then I go to work planning to have a liesurely hour-long lunch and then run into unexpected problems, delays, or meetings. That's what life is like.

      Maybe, eventually, when people like you stop eating at McDonalds, that chain of organic restaurants can finally start competing.

      You've just described a world in which they don't have to compete. They can start competing now. I'm sure that I'm not the only person alive who would like fast food that is healthy and nutritious. Wouldn't you eat at such a restaurant?

      But I disagree with your reasoning: a family farmer has no more right to have his way of life preserved at taxpayer expense than a programmer has the right to have his job not shipped to India or a cashier has the right not to have his job replaced by new technologies.

      I don't know who you are answering, but I never wrote anything about that topic. I simply explained why McDonalds continues to draw such large crowds.

      But since you brought it up, I do believe that the government should do something about the loss of U.S. jobs. I don't care if you have to pay more for goods and services. In fact, I'm in favor of it if it saves U.S. jobs. When good jobs go away, the economy suffers. Sure, the CEO of IBM might be able to get himself an even bigger seven-figure compensation package by outsourcing software engineering to India, but increasing his personal wealth is not so important that tens of thousands of Americans should have to lose their good jobs for it.

      But instead of taking responsibility for your own actions, you want the government to step in and regulate McDonalds in a way that fits your world view because you are too lazy to take action yourself. Never mind that either the taxpayer needs to foot the bill or that it will greatly increase the cost of that McDonalds meal.

      Please, read my original message and tell me where I said anything even remotely like that.

    5. Re:bleeding heart Republican by Stephen+Samuel · · Score: 1
      You ever try to find a drive-through at an organic restaurant when you are running late for work or only have 20 minutes to grab lunch?

      That pretty much says it... The fact that you've only scheduled yourself for a 20Min lunch says something... It's not like you can't put some real time for lunch into your schedule... It's just not a priority for you. There are all sorts of ways to arrange things, including paying someone in your community to make a (real) bagged lunch for you that probably has way more nutritional value than 3 or 4 McDonalds lunches (and probably better taste, too). At that point, you don't even have to line up for your gruel^W food.

      McDonalds is a known quantity.

      So is a mad cow -- and your point is???

      --
      Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
    6. Re:bleeding heart Republican by ic0wb0y · · Score: 1
      Easy: cook at home and take the food with you. It's cheap, you know exctly what goes into the food, and the level of cleanliness is as high as you desire.

      That's not the only beef. From anti-aging creams to surgical sutures to chocolate milkshakes and marshmallows...we have injected animal products from cattle, sheep, and hogs into nearly every corner of our lives. Here's a short list: List

    7. Re:bleeding heart Republican by fmaxwell · · Score: 1

      That pretty much says it... The fact that you've only scheduled yourself for a 20Min lunch says something...

      I've scheduled an hour for lunch. But sometimes reality intrudes and I don't get an hour.

      It's not like you can't put some real time for lunch into your schedule... It's just not a priority for you.

      I guess that I should tell my boss to go f*** himself when he asks me to do something that would cut my lunch short. 'The license server is down and the demo is at 1:00PM? Well screw that, I'm out to get my nutritious, healthy lunch. See you at 1:00. Hope it fixes itself before then.'

      Maybe you have the kind of job where your lunch break is signalled by a bell, but I do not. I'm a professional software developer and an engineering manager. If I don't want to end up working at McDonalds, I have to eat there occasionally.

      There are all sorts of ways to arrange things, including paying someone in your community to make a (real) bagged lunch for you that probably has way more nutritional value than 3 or 4 McDonalds lunches (and probably better taste, too).

      Lunch is a social occasion and a chance to get away from the office. I go to lunch with coworkers and friends who come to the office to unwind. I can't show up at a restaurant with a bagged lunch in hand. Nor do I want to become one of those pathetic type-A people who eats lunch while working, responding to e-mails, and answering the phone.

      How hard would it be for some company to open a fast-food restarant that has healthy food? It's not like it takes longer to fix healthy food than it takes to make a Big Mac. I don't mind paying more for better ingredients. Instead of trying to blame people who eat at McDonalds, why don't you blame the "healthy" restaurants who won't meet consumer demand for drive throughs and quick "to-go" meals?

    8. Re:bleeding heart Republican by Stephen+Samuel · · Score: 1
      Instead of trying to blame people who eat at McDonalds, why don't you blame the "healthy" restaurants who won't meet consumer demand for drive throughs and quick "to-go" meals?

      I don't (usually) drive, and the last time I tried, McDonalds refused to serve me riding a bike, so if you want to talk your local *good* food redtaurant to put in a drive through, I'd suggest two things:

      !) Buy your food from them more often (so that they have the money to build one, and
      2) while you're there, lobby them for a drive-through.

      If you know you're in a rush, you can also just call up your favorite restaurant, let them know what you want, and when you'll be there to eat it. They can time the meal for you, then you'll have fine food with (roughly) no wait. That's the kind of service that McDonalds will probably never provide. It's something that you'll probabably only get from a mom+pop type operation.

      --
      Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
    9. Re:bleeding heart Republican by penguin7of9 · · Score: 1

      It must be nice to have unlimited time and never have anything unexpected happen. My life doesn't work like that. Sometimes I oversleep and don't have time to cook a healthy meal. Then I go to work planning to have a liesurely hour-long lunch and then run into unexpected problems, delays, or meetings. That's what life is like.

      No, it's just the life you have chosen.

      I'm sure that I'm not the only person alive who would like fast food that is healthy and nutritious.

      "Fast food" is intrinsically unhealthy--you need to take your time to eat in order to eat healthy.

      But since you brought it up, I do believe that the government should do something about the loss of U.S. jobs.

      The US is primarily responsible for creating the international system that permits this kind of outsourcing, and Americans have benefitted handsomely from it so far, so it seems ironic for Americans to complain about it.

      Sure, the CEO of IBM might be able to get himself an even bigger seven-figure compensation package by outsourcing software engineering to India, but increasing his personal wealth is not so important that tens of thousands of Americans should have to lose their good jobs for it.

      I think you have a distorted view of where US jobs comes from. Companies like IBM have huge overseas operations. Yet, most of their R&D and high-tech work is still carried out in the US. Other nations have no interest in tolerating that kind of imbalance in the long run--they want their own high-tech industries with their own high tech workers and they are going to get them.

      If the US tries to force those jobs to remain in the country, other nations are just going to put higher import tariffs on US goods and strengthen their domestic high tech manufacturing. Having the Indian jobs be under the control of a multinational company with headquarters in the US is still the better choice for Americans.

      Please, read my original message and tell me where I said anything even remotely like that.

      We are discussing these issues in the context of a message that bemoaned the fate of the American family farmer and talked about "monopolies" and putting those responsible for agribusinesses in jail. I'm just saying: there is not much that can be done about it.

    10. Re:bleeding heart Republican by fmaxwell · · Score: 1

      !) Buy your food from them more often (so that they have the money to build one, and
      2) while you're there, lobby them for a drive-through.


      I don't need one restaurant to do it. I need lots of them near my home, my work, client sites, on the highway, etc. I just can't believe that there is not a sufficient market to support such a restaurant chain.

    11. Re:bleeding heart Republican by fmaxwell · · Score: 1

      No, it's just the life you have chosen.

      And what life have you chosen. Tell me about having a life where you have no responsibilities. Tell me about how you can just leave your work at a moment's notice to have a liesurely lunch. Tell me about how you never oversleep, never have to stay up late to finish something, and never have something which forces you to cut your lunch short. And then tell me about the unicorns dancing outside of your window. Come on! Being alive, human, and part of the working world means that you don't always have time for a liesurely meal.

      "Fast food" is intrinsically unhealthy--you need to take your time to eat in order to eat healthy.

      If eating a salad in 15 minutes is unhealthy but picking over it for 50 minutes (while the airborne bacteria and germs have a chance to settle in) is, then I'll just eat unhealthy.

      I think you have a distorted view of where US jobs comes from. Companies like IBM have huge overseas operations. Yet, most of their R&D and high-tech work is still carried out in the US.

      Try reading this for a good example.

    12. Re:bleeding heart Republican by Stephen+Samuel · · Score: 1
      I just can't believe that there is not a sufficient market to support such a restaurant chain.

      The other half of "build it and they will come" is "come and they will build it".
      It's like the difference between Linux and Windows... If people are satisfied enough with mediocrity, and don't agitate for quality, then why bet your life savings on the quality solution? Every time you go to McDonalds, you vote with your dollars. If you (and your friends, workmates, clients) start arranging things so that you can have your 20 minute lunch at the mom&pop stores in your region, then they might just be willing to invest $20,000 in the renovations to make a drive-through possible.

      --
      Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
    13. Re:bleeding heart Republican by penguin7of9 · · Score: 1
      And what life have you chosen. Tell me about having a life where you have no responsibilities.

      I'm sorry, but what do the two have to do with one another? "Having responsibilities" doesn't mean that you have to cut your lunch short or not take time for breakfast.

      And then tell me about the unicorns dancing outside of your window. Come on! Being alive, human, and part of the working world means that you don't always have time for a liesurely meal.

      Most people living in civilized nations have predictable working hours. You know: 9am to noon, one hour lunch break, 1pm to 5pm. That gives you plenty of time for lunch and plenty of sleep. Others are freelancers and can set their working hours, meaning they too can set aside plenty of time for eating.

      If eating a salad in 15 minutes is unhealthy but picking over it for 50 minutes (while the airborne bacteria and germs have a chance to settle in) is, then I'll just eat unhealthy.

      Eating a salad alone is unhealthy and, what is more, uncivilized. A decent, civilized lunch consists of an appetizer, a main dish, and desert.

      Try reading this for a good example.

      Yes, it says:
      According to International Data Corp., foreign workers performed about 5 percent of information technology services for American companies this year, but by 2007, that share will grow to 23 percent.
      More than 50% of the revenues of companies like IBM come from overseas, so having 23% of their high-tech jobs move overseas still seems disproportionately low; more jobs need to move overseas, not fewer, for the imbalance to be corrected.

      Americans have just been able to pick out the choice jobs in the past. But there is no justification for that anymore: many Indians are well-educated and willing to work for less; why shouldn't they get the jobs? The world does not owe the US a high standard of living.
    14. Re:bleeding heart Republican by MOOPed · · Score: 1

      "The world does not owe the US a high standard of living."

      Really? How many billions of dollars does the U.S. spend in foreign aid a year? How much of that money has paid back? How many laws and regulations have been passed to keep IBM and other corps. operating on U.S.? Do you even live in a America, do you know the state of the job market out here? Have you ever heard of Flint, Michigan?

    15. Re:bleeding heart Republican by penguin7of9 · · Score: 1

      Really? How many billions of dollars does the U.S. spend in foreign aid a year?

      The US spent $12.9 billion dollars in foreign aid in 2002. That makes US foreign aid the lowest percentage of GNP of any nation.

      Furthermore, most of that money is not given as development aid, it is given for specific US political purposes: purchases of military hardware, keeping some friendly regime in power, fixing up a country like Afghanistan after a US military strike, permitting US military to remain on foreign soil, etc. Much of that aid is also conditional on buying US products--it is really hidden subsidies for US companies.

      US foreign aid is already stingy and self-serving: US foreign aid is an embarrassment to this nation.

      How much of that money has paid back?

      Most of it is constantly being "paid back" in political favors.

      But you are missing the point behind "foreign aid": if it needed to be paid back, it wouldn't be "aid", it would be a "loan". And the point behind foreign aid is to help countries develop, i.e., do exactly what India is doing: create profitable enterprises and jobs. And of course those enterprises are going to compete with the US and take jobs away from the US.

      In any case, India receives peanuts in foreign aid from the US, and Europe receives none, so your reasoning doesn't even apply there.

      Do you even live in a America,

      Yes. What does that have to do with anything?

      How many laws and regulations have been passed to keep IBM and other corps. operating on U.S.?

      Why should any such laws be passed? IBM is a global company, not a US company. IBM makes more than half of its money outside the US, hence more than half of its workforce should be outside the US. Since it isn't yet, more IBM jobs are moving overseas. It's pretty simple, really.

      If the US tried to keep the current imbalance through legislation, other nations would simply retaliate with their own legislation, and the results would be far worse for the US.

      do you know the state of the job market out here? Have you ever heard of Flint, Michigan?

      I don't see what you are complaining about: US unemployment is nearly half of what European or Indian unemployment is.

      What it comes down to is that you want other nations living in poverty. You want to force them to buy US goods so that Americans have good jobs and full employment, and you want to keep them from developing their own competitive industries. You want other nations to do all the unpleasant, unskilled jobs for peanuts to ensure that you still can import cheap clothes and furniture. Pardon the rest of the world for not wanting to go along with your vision. They want to develop their own competitive industries, educate their workforce, and become wealthy, and they don't owe the US anything, least of all countries like China and India.

    16. Re:bleeding heart Republican by fmaxwell · · Score: 1
      I'm sorry, but what do the two have to do with one another?

      You're the one claiming that one can just choose to have some idyllic life where lunch is never interrupted, there's always time for breakfast, and you work a 9-5 workday with an hour for lunch. So I asked you about it:
      And what life have you chosen. Tell me about having a life where you have no responsibilities.
      Now please answer it.

      "Having responsibilities" doesn't mean that you have to cut your lunch short or not take time for breakfast.

      You are wrong. I'm 42 years old and have been a software engineer and, more recently, in engineering management throughout my career. I have over 20 years of real-world experience working as both a consultant and a salaried employee in full-time positions at ten different companies. What are your qualifications to tell me how the world works? Are you in high school? College? Are you working at a blue-collar job? I'm trying to get a handle on how you get these ideas that you've been putting forth.

      Most people living in civilized nations have predictable working hours. You know: 9am to noon, one hour lunch break, 1pm to 5pm.

      So you think that most professionals work a seven hour day? You really are living in fantasy land, aren't you? According to a study by the New York-based Families and Work Institute, combined weekly work hours for dual-earning couples with children rose to 91 hours in 2002. That means that parents are averaging 45.5 hours each. That's an average. Now consider the households where one parent works only part time. They are part of that average, too. That pretty much shoots down your claims about what "most people" do.

      Eating a salad alone is unhealthy and, what is more, uncivilized. A decent, civilized lunch consists of an appetizer, a main dish, and desert.

      You must be the size of a house! This may come as a shock to you, but most people need to keep an eye on how many calories they consume.

      More than 50% of the revenues of companies like IBM come from overseas, so having 23% of their high-tech jobs move overseas still seems disproportionately low; more jobs need to move overseas, not fewer, for the imbalance to be corrected.

      More than 50% of the revenues of any Asian-owned motherboard company come from the U.S. What percentage of the workforce at Asus, Gigabyte, Abit, and MSI is non-Asian (I can tell you from reading the manuals that all of the people in their technical writing departments are Asian).

      Americans have just been able to pick out the choice jobs in the past. But there is no justification for that anymore: many Indians are well-educated and willing to work for less; why shouldn't they get the jobs?

      Because Indian workers did not build the company up throughout its history. U.S. workers are the ones who contributed to the success of the company and for the company to simply abandon them is despicable.

      Of course Indian workers will accept less pay. Their cost of living is practically nothing. They get $6,000(U.S.) per year and can live like kings. IBM gets out of having to comply with U.S. labor regulations, Social Security, unemployment insurance, and the workers in the U.S. get screwed.
    17. Re:bleeding heart Republican by Gunzour · · Score: 1

      I assume penguin7of9 made a typo when he suggested people work 7 hour days. His point is still valid: many (he said most, but I will only say many) people have pretty standard work schedules. In any case, the job they have is a result of the choices they have made in their life. The fact that most people in the USA choose a busy, hectic lifestyle does not preclude others from choosing differently. If someone uses the excuse that they don't have time to eat healthy, then they need to realize that is only a result of the choices they have made.

      If you had a salad at McD's then good on you. :) This whole thread branched from a post which read:

      If you ate at McDonalds yesterday, their is a chance within 30 years you'll be acting like, yes-a mad cow.

      This implies that "you" ate beef at McD's, since I don't think many people would seriously argue that eating a salad at McD's could give you mad cow disease.

    18. Re:bleeding heart Republican by Gunzour · · Score: 1

      How hard would it be for some company to open a fast-food restarant that has healthy food? It's not like it takes longer to fix healthy food than it takes to make a Big Mac. I don't mind paying more for better ingredients. Instead of trying to blame people who eat at McDonalds, why don't you blame the "healthy" restaurants who won't meet consumer demand for drive throughs and quick "to-go" meals?


      Here's one. These guys aren't bad either (in fact, they were run by McDonald's, last time I checked).

      I'm not sure what your hangup on drive-thrus is. Last time I used a drive through for lunch it took way longer than walking into the store and getting lunch to go.

      Lunch is a social occasion and a chance to get away from the office. I go to lunch with coworkers and friends who come to the office to unwind. I can't show up at a restaurant with a bagged lunch in hand. Nor do I want to become one of those pathetic type-A people who eats lunch while working, responding to e-mails, and answering the phone.


      Well, yes you can show up at a restaurant with a bagged lunch -- what's stopping you? The staff at McD's surely won't care.

      It is your choice to go along with the rest of your coworkers and eat out all the time. I'll be honest -- I do it too (although not at McD's). You could choose to use a break room or bench somewhere away from your desk to enjoy a brought-from-home lunch. You could even encourage your coworkers to do the same so they could join you.

    19. Re:bleeding heart Republican by fmaxwell · · Score: 1

      I assume penguin7of9 made a typo when he suggested people work 7 hour days.

      You are more generous than I am. I think that he actually believes the "9-to-5" that was bandied around for so many years.

      His point is still valid: many (he said most, but I will only say many) people have pretty standard work schedules.

      While I will agree with that, it's also true that many engineering professionals have all-too-frequent interruptions to those schedules.

      If someone uses the excuse that they don't have time to eat healthy, then they need to realize that is only a result of the choices they have made.

      The reality is that job market in the U.S. tech sector is such that you are likely to find yourself without work if you are steadfastly refuse to ever cut your lunch hour short, work into the evening, or arrive early in order to meet your employer's needs. It sucks, but it's reality.

      This whole thread branched from a post which read:

      If you ate at McDonalds yesterday, their is a chance within 30 years you'll be acting like, yes-a mad cow.


      To which Penguin7of9 replied: If you ate at McDonalds yesterday, you have already acted like a mad cow.

      While the original poster implied that there was a chance that eating beef at McDonald's would lead to Mad Cow Disease, Penguin7of9 stated that anyone who ate there was insane. That's where it crossed the line for me.

  15. erm... How do other countries do this?... by -Maurice66- · · Score: 1

    Well, I think in Holland we have this great system of tagging all cows using earmarks...

    It was in place a few years before our mad cow scares started. Not that it helped.

    However cows over here are identified unique due to this system.

    So yes, RFIDing cows might help the US but it's not only about tagging! The administration system behind it is MUCH MUCH more important than the RFID tag... RFID is just for identifying the cow but knowing what it has been fed and where it came from and what it is produced in is more important. You do not solve that with RFID (or any ID).

    M

  16. Re:Here's a really effective cure to Mad Cow Disea by -Maurice66- · · Score: 1

    stop feeding cows at all... problem solves itself.

  17. People have been doing this for years. by JoeD · · Score: 1

    How is this different from those tags your vet can put in yout cat or dog? It's just extending it a little bit.

  18. :What if you DON'T eat the RFID? by Spamalamadingdong · · Score: 1
    The RFID tag is separated from the meat when the hide is pulled off, no? At that point the meat becomes un-tagged, and if testing takes long enough that people eat the meat before the test results come back the "protection" goes to zero. Do you really have any idea where the results of "advanced meat recovery" go once they're scraped from the skeleton? They could be in any number of patties, sausages and pot pies.

    I hope that bar-coding can be used as an alternative to RFID for the small farmer, so that e.g. grass-fed operations can stay in business without having their costs driven up by the less-safe factory farms.

  19. A red herring. We need enforcement, not RFID tags. by dpbsmith · · Score: 3, Informative

    1) It's already against the rules for beef products to contain nervous system tissue.

    2) 2002 Agriculture Department survey found central nervous system tissue in beef products at 74 percent of the plants tested. Source:
    http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/15401 7_beefsaf ety25.html

    There you have it. We already have regulations in place that would be perfectly adequate prevent the transmission of mad cow to disease to humans--and the regulations are not being followed.

    What earthly good will it do to accumulate yet more tracking records and database entries? What's needed is a willingness to put public safety above the profits of private interests. If that's absent, all the RFID tags in the world aren't going to help.

  20. Computer Cowboy by Chagatai · · Score: 1
    I work for one of the largest beef and pork producers in the United States. Obviously, the case of BSE got our attention real quick. We had been anticipating such a problem for quite a while and had been working on a tracking mechanism to track every part of the slaughter process, from the live cow to ground beef and trim. RFID was one of our options for tracking the cows, but there were issues with attaching the chips to the cattle, proximity, etc. Also, after the slaughter, the attachment of an RFID chip to the carcass could be considered an adulterant, which is forbidden by USDA regulations.

    Our solution? Go back to an earlier Slashdot article. Although there are proximity issues as well, this optical tracking system is what we will be using. No adulteration to the product, and we will be able to use this information to track cattle as they go through the process (albeit the head is removed at slaughter, but there is tracking through other means for the carcass).

    --
    --Chag
  21. Not only meat by ic0wb0y · · Score: 1
    From anti-aging creams to surgical sutures to chocolate milkshakes and marshmallows...we have injected animal products from cattle, sheep, and hogs into nearly every corner of our lives.

    LIST

  22. I have been studying RFID in Cattle for 6 months by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I live and work in an agriculture area. Beef production is the number 1 economic activity in my county.

    I have been looking for ways to get more computer business with the beef producers. We have studied and discussed some of the high tech ways RFID is being used to increase cattle and dairy productions in some parts of the world.

    Feed Lots - Using automatic scales and sorting gates, feed lots can easily sort cattle into groups by weight, then feed the groups the best feed mixes to maximize weight gain. Sensors on the feeding troughs, alert operators early on to cows that aren't eating properly, possible early sign of disease. Record keeping for immunizations and other health records is simplified. One US feedlot in Nebraska estimated that they increased their profit per head by $10 per animal. Cost per tag, $4.00. They run 1 million head per year.

    Dairy Farms - Most of the information I found about this came from European sources. RFID cattle are id'd as soon as they come in the barn. The feeding system keeps track of each cow and its lactation cycle. Automatically dispenses an exact amount of feed designed to maximize its milk production. It also identifies if the cow has eaten all of its feed. The milking equipment tracks the exact milk production of each cow instantly. Out in the lot, automatic feeders log when cows eat and how much they eat. Farmers can more accurately use these milk and feed records to identify good genetic lines. Health and vacination records are more accurate and simplified. Farms using such systems report 10-15% production gains, without the use of hormones.

    I know it sounds boring, but when I was a kid, my family would make extra bucks as substiture milkers on small dairy farms (10-50 cows) when the families went on vacation. Based on my own experiances, I can see how much this stuff could do.

  23. But it's really the fault of First Energy of Ohio by TomDLux · · Score: 1

    But it's really the fault of First Energy of Ohio