Slashdot Mirror


Mass. Backs Down From Open Source Stance

MeanMF writes "eWeek reports that the state of Massachusetts has moved away from specifying that open source software be given preferential treatment over proprietary systems. Instead, they have chosen to focus on software that provides the best value and flexibility. This is a major reversal from their previous direction."

35 comments

  1. Not bad by hawkbug · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I don't see this as being bad for Open Source - because if Open Source is truly the best option for the state, they will choose it. It won't force the state to use it if it isn't right. That will make the software better in the long run - if it needs to improve to compete.

    1. Re:Not bad by El · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Right, 'cause state officials always make purchases based on what is best for the state, and are never influenced by those all-expense paid vacations to the bahamas that some of their suppliers buy them... here's a lollipop, stop botherin' me, kid!

      --

      "Freedom means freedom for everybody" -- Dick Cheney

    2. Re:Not bad by mhesseltine · · Score: 1
      I don't see this as being bad for Open Source - because if Open Source is truly the best option for the state, they will choose it. It won't force the state to use it if it isn't right. That will make the software better in the long run - if it needs to improve to compete.

      Exactly. No software, open or closed source, should be given preferential treatment. Honestly look at what it does, what it costs, and what it will take to implement and make the decision from there.

      Ah, if only companies were willing to work like that instead of on the "buddy system" (Here's some tickets to the Beatles reunion, Buddy [wink, wink, nudge, nudge])

      --
      Overrated / Underrated : Moderation :: Anonymous Coward : Posting
    3. Re:Not bad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Which is why I've personally sent the Mass. government 10,000 copies of Gentoo, absolutely free. And I even included instructions on how to make more!

      I know what you're thinking: how can I afford to GIVE AWAY 10,000 copies of a high-quality operating system? Well, these are the sacrifices one must make if one wishes to impress state governments.

    4. Re:Not bad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Sure, but keep in mind: closed-source software allows the possibility of lock-in. They might be using a certain closed-source package simply because it would cost too much to move all the data or otherwise re-implement. It's not entirely about "best tool for the job".

      Specifing open-source-only is an easy (but not entirely practical) way to avoid the hidden danger of lock-in.

    5. Re:Not bad by ClosedSource · · Score: 1

      Of course, lock-in is also possible with open-source software. Just because the source code is available, doesn't mean that users have the knowledge, desire, or money to make their own modifications if the leaders of the open source project take it in a direction they don't like.

  2. Same as israel by Frequanaut · · Score: 1

    My guess is that microsoft gave them a great deal and the whole announcement was just a means to gain leverage over microsoft.

  3. Huzzah! by Your_Mom · · Score: 4, Informative

    This is a good thing. Yes. I said /GOOD/ thing

    Why is this a good thing? Because /lots/ of software projects were put on hold since this opensource intitiative started. Everyone had to drop everything and start reviewing whether or not they could reimplement their projects on Linux. EVERYONE. Including projects that were ready to go out the door.

    Plus, the 2nd problem is the person who suggested this is the head beancounter, who has no idea how stuff worked in the trenches. He was asking why people could implement a Multi-Terabye Oracle DB (which was already purchased and filled with data) onto MySQL. It just grates me.

    Instead, they came to their senses and are now wanting to use the best tool for the job. *phew*

    (FYI: I work for Commonwealth. I am not speaking for the Commonwealth, and all the things said above are purely scuttlebutt that I overheard.)

    --
    Objects in the blog are closer then they ap
    1. Re:Huzzah! by codepunk · · Score: 0

      Oh no somebody was going to make you think a little before pulling out our wallets. Well my friend my heart bleeds purple piss for you. You and everyone else that works for the govt should always ask yourself if you can implement your project on Linux. You should ask this because you are spending MY money and YOURS. The very next thing you should be asking yourself is why I should be buying a application and or programming a application that is not cross platform to make future migration at least possible. Now I do agree with using software that provides the best cost to performance ratio, but do not agree with your crying about having to think a little.

      --


      Got Code?
    2. Re:Huzzah! by Your_Mom · · Score: 1

      Wow, you're basicly accusing me of being a windows drone. First time for everything I guess...

      Wake up buddy, Linux isn't perfect for everything. For a long time, we couldn't consider Linux, and lo, I implemented stuff for days on Windows NT/IIS that could take me a couple of hours to get under Apache. Then, Linux approached a Don't ask/Don't tell type policy, and I quietly implemented some projects on a couple of Linux boxes I installed in the shadows of the server room. Now, Linux is approaching a viable alternative in the eyes of the bigwigs, and life is good.

      Don't think people don't think about cost effectiveness and saving money every time we do a project. We ARE moving to open standards for our web projects. We ARE starting to look at implementing certain things on Linux. We ARE doing this stuff, it's just you apparently don't notice (which is how I like it thankyouverymuch)

      It's just that you can't say '*poof* we are going to move to Linux NOW' and expect to save money when you already have $BIGNUM dollars invested in lots of projects. There is no magic migration wand, you need to plan plan plan for a migration of this magnitude.

      God, can't all operating systems get along?

      (Again, I am not speaking for the Commonwealth, I am merely a peon, and also, I have been using Linux since 2.0.23, but yes, I also use Windows [and OpenBSD, and FreeBSD, and MacOS Jaguar, and BeOS])

      --
      Objects in the blog are closer then they ap
  4. Umm by NanoGator · · Score: 3, Insightful

    "This is a major reversal from their previous direction."

    A major reversal would be if they said to avoid OSS altogether. Instead, they just made it fair to all involved. For all the benefits of OSS to be worth anything, the software has to do its job. If OSS is ready, you all have nothing to worry about. If it's not, then start coding.

    --
    "Derp de derp."
    1. Re:Umm by Otter · · Score: 1

      Also, the original policy was nowhere near as sweeping as it was made out to be. People read it as an absolute directive for the use of open-source software everywhere, which was simply not true.

    2. Re:Umm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except that when they look for a solution, they call around to vendors, who have flashy presentations showing how their product works/competes.

      Most OSS tools don't have anything like that. There's no (to my knowledge) Apache Group liason that goes out to companies to talk about its virtues... for instance.

    3. Re:Umm by NanoGator · · Score: 1

      "Most OSS tools don't have anything like that. There's no (to my knowledge) Apache Group liason that goes out to companies to talk about its virtues... for instance."

      So the only way that you guys expect OSS to get out there is if it's state mandated?

      C'mon guys, you're going to have to step up to the plate. Want Microsoft's monopoly on Office to be cracked? Pony up a few bucks, send it to Sun, ask them to air some commercials. Get the name out there.

      --
      "Derp de derp."
  5. Duh by Leroy_Brown242 · · Score: 1

    yeah, this is a no brainer. Everyone should use the best software for the job. Not use something BECAUSE it's OSS.

    1. Re:Duh by shaitand · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Of course. However they damn well better not spend my tax dollars on something I can't review.

    2. Re:Duh by Leroy_Brown242 · · Score: 1

      You can't review a lot of things the military does. Are you against that too?

    3. Re:Duh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't you mean something you WON'T review. Were you planning to volunteer your time to read and comment on all their source code? I didn't think so.

    4. Re:Duh by shaitand · · Score: 2

      Yes as a matter of fact I am. Besides that the military contributes BILLIONS to research with no immediate use. The military has at least spent SOME of my tax dollars developing software I can review and which is available to everyone.

      Security through obscurity DOES NOT WORK. I wish people would get that through their heads.

      The state of mass however does NOT work on issues of national security at all. If they have software developed it should be open source and available to the public. It should also be out in the open so that taxpayers can review the states purchasing decisions and determine whether or not the current state and local governments need fired.

    5. Re:Duh by shaitand · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Who said anything about reviewing ALL their source code? But I may well review some of their sourcecode and certainly anything they have developed since that should not only be open source, it should be public domain.

      They are accountable to ME the taxpayer, the people who hired them, the people who ultimately CAN and will if need be fire them. If I want to have the source code available for everything they use as part of that accountablity. So I can be sure the information regarding me they handle is secure, so I can verify they are telling the truth if they claim all the power grids in the state went down due a glitch. So I can verify pretty much anything I want AT NEED not neccesarily as an automatic process. They damn well better do it.

      Not every individual person will read every line of source code, that is nearly an impossible task with comprehension. However if every citizen reads just two lines of code they could review 1000's of times the amount of software used by the state. But the reason the state needs the source open is so that the citizens can check up on them. And to ensure they don't spend my money developing for proprietary software when they could have developed code that would benefit anyone without advertising a private company.

    6. Re:Duh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Definition of Free Software: The best software for the job.

      I wonder why they didn't call it Best Software? That would seem to match the defintion better.

  6. Not a reversal at all by sfjoe · · Score: 4, Insightful


    It seems more like a clarification to me:

    The state's new Enterprise Open Standards Policy defines open standards as: "Specifications for systems that are publicly available and are developed by an open community and affirmed by a standards body."

    While open standards aren't the same as open source, it certainly leans away from a Microsoft-style, vendor lock-in.

    --
    It's simple: I demand prosecution for torture.
  7. Hmmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    I guess you could say "Mass. weighs their options."

  8. makes sense by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Basically they are focusing on the important aspect of open source: Freedom. If you have closed-source software which does the job, but costs an arm and a leg to replace, you've got lock-in.. but if you have closed-source software that is begin used simply because it's BETTER, then you've excercised your choice, and are still free to choose a different solution in the future. This is good. It makes the closed-source software work hard to stay competitive.

    Demand freedom and open standards. Open source software is the easy no-brainer way to get these things, but sometimes you actually need something that OSS doesn't supply. Fair enough.

    1. Re:makes sense by shaitand · · Score: 1

      That's not what defines lock in at all. It has nothing to do with price or capability whatsoever.

      Vendor lockin means that something is proprietary and locking in your data in it's own proprietary formats/protocols and/or it fails to function if replaced by something else.

      Basically how locked in your are is ENTIRELY dependent on your REALISTIC ability to toss it in the trash. You can always throw away a piece of software, if your willing ot lose all of your critical data and throw a billion in the trash of course. That's why its about your REALISTIC ability.

  9. BSA by frobber · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Sounds like they've given in to lobbying from the Business Software Alliance (BSA) who believes:

    The continued vitality of all software development models depends on the merits of their respective products, and not the method of development chosen. [pdf]

    Which sounds great, but this is an organization that also supports evils such as the DMCA and DRM.

    As for choice, I never understood why IT managers haven't been fired en masse when they've commited a business or university to Microsoft products. MS has a proven history of closed standards based on embracing and extending open standards for the sole purpose of creating an artificial dependence on their products. Based on this fact alone, products build on open standards are superior...

  10. Auditability is a major plus for OSS by Bob_Robertson · · Score: 2

    One of the major reasons for the Militaries use of OSS is that it is auditable. Anyone who has worked for a government agency knows how important it is once in a while to explain and demonstrate how and why of what they do.

    A substantial sore point for closed source software is that it cannot be reviewed. That is why the Military writes so much of its own code.

    Now with the faucet running full-on with OSS, they can and do examine the code, build from source, and even make desired changes. Because They Can.

    That is not to say that the Military operations and internal efforts are visible from the outside, it is to say that they are visible on the inside.

    Bob-

    --
    The Ludwig von Mises Institute. The reasoning individuals economics
  11. Happy With This by nathanh · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I'm glad they've backed down from their earlier "FLOSS everywhere" policy because it was simply impractical while also being completely unfair to NFCSS (non-free closed source software) companies. I think our local government (Australian Capital Territory) had a far more intelligent policy; you should consider open source software but still pick the best (read: most economical) tool for the job. It seems Massachusetts has now chosen a similarly balanced policy and that makes me happy.

    Another motivation is practicality. I know of and sometimes work in certain areas where moving to FLOSS would be a significant step backwards. I am not talking about office automation, but areas like scientific software and certain limit cases (eg, terabyte databases). These are niches where the NFCSS companies have had several decades head start. It will take a very long time for FLOSS to catchup to NFCSS in those niche fields, if that's even possible.

    BTW: my real motivation for supporting "choice" over "mandate" is partly fairness, partly common sense, but also partly smugness. I have no doubt that FLOSS software will win on its own merits, given enough time. I definitely don't want FLOSS to be govt-mandated now and 10 years later have a bunch of disgruntled ex-Microsofties bitch about how "FLOSS would never have won if the govt didn't make it compulsory".

  12. Nothing's Changed by craXORjack · · Score: 1
    'The state of Massachusetts has moved away from specifying that open source software be given preferential treatment over proprietary systems. Instead, they have chosen to focus on software that provides the best value and flexibility.'

    'Nuff said.

    --
    Liberals call everyone Nazis yet they are the closest thing to it.
  13. SA is being even smarter by leonbrooks · · Score: 1
    I think our local government (Australian Capital Territory) had a far more intelligent policy; you should consider open source software but still pick the best (read: most economical) tool for the job.


    The croweaters' law says words to the effect of "thou shalt not buy lockin risks". That is aimed straight at the heart of everything opposed to FLOSS, and it's a very difficult approach to attack without coming across as a selfish cad. (-:

    It's especially interesting because this has wider implications than IT, and it reflects some of what "third world" countries have been learning as they roll out their own FLOSS policies. People become less reluctant to shoot co-developers, and more interested in meeting to solve common problems as a result of the practice that they get on-line.

    So much of the progress in this world is held up by blind faith in the existing dogma, so many people are held in thrall to greed and fear because of it. These same problems extend beyond business.

    For example, science tells us and we all agree that craters are formed either by meteorite impacts or vulcanism. What? all of them? I think not. But as long as we hang onto that obsolete idea, we're blind to any other possibilities.

    Despite all of the benefits already expounded upon herein, the legislation we're seeing enacted is most important for forcing people to seriously consider alternatives for the first time. For that reason, it's sad to see Massuchusetts backing down at all. It's not as if the original wording was exactly draconian to start with.

    my real motivation [...] is [...] partly smugness


    Nathan! I'm shocked - absolutely shocked - at the level of self-deprecation I see here! (-:

    I definitely don't want FLOSS to be govt-mandated now and 10 years later have a bunch of disgruntled ex-Microsofties bitch about how "FLOSS would never have won if the govt didn't make it compulsory".


    They'll whine anyway. And we'll survive that experience, too. (-:
    --
    Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
    1. Re:SA is being even smarter by nathanh · · Score: 1
      For example, science tells us and we all agree that craters are formed either by meteorite impacts or vulcanism. What? all of them? I think not. But as long as we hang onto that obsolete idea, we're blind to any other possibilities.

      Science doesn't tell us anything. People tell us things. Sometimes they use science to come to those conclusions, and sometimes they don't use science but claim that they did.

      If you have evidence that some craters didn't come from vulcanism or meteors then guess what... you've just used science! That's right. You used science to correct a false belief.

      If you use science to correct a false belief then you've demonstrated that science is working. Science doesn't make you blind, or force you to hold onto obsolete ideas. The fact that you think you have evidence to the contrary is what science is all about. Show the world. Change the world. You'll be changing the world with science.

      Nathan! I'm shocked - absolutely shocked - at the level of self-deprecation I see here! (-:

      Leon Brooks! I'm not at all surprised to see you talking about "blind scientists" holding onto "obsolete ideas" on a thread which had absolutely nothing to do with science. Are you sure you wouldn't be happier over in talk.origins?

    2. Re:SA is being even smarter by leonbrooks · · Score: 1
      You used science to correct a false belief.

      Not quite. I made a scientific (if general) statement against a widely held belief which I regard to be false. The belief is still widely held, ergo I have not corrected it.

      I'm not at all surprised to see you talking about "blind scientists" holding onto "obsolete ideas" on a thread which had absolutely nothing to do with science.

      Lame, lame, lame! At least get the quoted text right. (-:

      See you next year, if not before.

      --
      Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
  14. Re: What it costs by some+guy+I+know · · Score: 1
    Honestly look at what it does, what it costs, and what it will take to implement and make the decision from there.
    But part of "what it costs" is determining what happens if the closed-source company goes out of business or decides to stop supporting the product after a while.
    How much will it cost to migrate data or upgrade to a newer version?
    Unfortunately, governments (like most organizations) rarely are able to look that far ahead.
    --
    Those who sacrifice security to condemn liberty deserve to repeat history or something. - Benjamin Santayana
  15. Follow the dollar by You're+All+Wrong · · Score: 0

    Money has changed hands. I'd stake my reputation on it.
    I'd just like to follow the dollar upstream and know who felt threatened? Anyone know of any just-about-to-be-cancelled contracts?

    However, I think that an official pro-OSS stance is no better than any other kind of so called "positive discrimination".

    OSS source software is on the whole less of a risk as for example the OSS community has been forced to implement interoperability with proprietory standards, and the big commercial names like MS have been desparate to obfuscate their file formats in order to try and evolve away from the OSS equivalents' compatibilities. Therefore they're much less of a lock-in risk. You can take your data with you as you leave, you can't with proprietory formats, you only need to replace the binaries. (Oversimplified of course.)

    YAW.

    --
    Your head of state is a corrupt weasel, I hope you're happy.