Sales Tax Refund For Tennessee Internet Access

Scotty B. writes "The Tennessee Court of Appeals ruled that Internet access is not subject to sales tax. We Road Runner customers can check out the refund information page."

Comments

Some useful forms.

[bryanp]

The procedure to reclaim your refund per the Tennesee Dept. of Revenue

The form on Comcast's web page to fill out and mail in.

Why yes, I do live in Nashville and have been a Comcast cable modem customer for for several years.

Tennessee Press Release

[Mark_Hopkins]

Here is the Tennessee Department of Revenue press release on the matter.

Only access, not the equipment

[Marxist Hacker 42]

The refund does not include sales tax on equipment or installation - only access.

Proof once again that politicians don't understand that hardware is needed if software is going to be worth anything. Boy I'm glad I live in a no-sales-tax state.

Re:Only access, not the equipment

[bryanp]

The refund does not include sales tax on equipment or installation - only access.

Proof once again that politicians don't understand that hardware is needed if software is going to be worth anything. Boy I'm glad I live in a no-sales-tax state.

We have a ridiculously high sales tax here, but no state income tax. I'd rather have the sales tax. As an aside, I do find it amusing that someone who calls himself a Marxist in his nick would gripe about taxes. (not flaming, just chuckling a bit)

Re:Only access, not the equipment

[Marxist Hacker 42]

I like PROGRESSIVE taxes. Sales tax by it's very nature is regressive. Plus- Marxism is only the start- the Hacker is much more descriptive. As in, I like to hack economic systems, come up with new and better ways to do resource distribution than the old profit motive so prevalent in both Capitalist and so-called Communist countries. It's clear to me that just as absolute power corrupts absolutely, wealth concentration creates absolute power, which corrupts absolutely. I've yet to see any country turn to a decentralized automated resource distribution model- but SETI@Home proved it could be done. Ownership becomes an outdated concept- be it state or private ownership- under such a model.

Re:Only access, not the equipment

[bryanp]

I like PROGRESSIVE taxes. Sales tax by it's very nature is regressive.

Understandable viewpoint. I happen to disagree with you. But that's the beauty of it - you can live in a state that chooses no sales tax and I choose to live in one of the few states without an income tax. Florida being one of the others I can name off the top of my head. They manage it by fleecing the tourists.

Re:Only access, not the equipment

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Yep- one of my other ideas is kind of like this. Free Enterprise Reservations and Charter Communes. If we had both legal in the U.S., businesses like Wal*Mart could have their Free Enterprise Reservations (No taxes, the corporation is the government, and the only requirement is that they take nothing from the outside world and process all possible waste on the reservation so that they don't pollute the outside world); and people like me would be free to form high tech communes where the only money is when we leave the 'Net and the building to buy food (kind of like Michael Smith's commune in _Stranger_In_A_Strange_Land_, where all the money was kept in a barrel by the door- you take what you need to buy and you don't worry about accounting), the charter commune being just a special case of the Free Enterprise Zone with different corporate rules.

But even that would require decentralization FIRST, as there's no way a federal government would allow such enroachment on their powers.

Re:Only access, not the equipment

[Marxist Hacker 42]

P.S. Nevada has no property tax- they fleece the tourists too through a gaming tax.

Re:Only access, not the equipment

[quizwedge]

where all the money was kept in a barrel by the door- you take what you need to buy and you don't worry about accounting

This works well, assuming everyone is honest. What happens when one lazy guy decides that he doesn't want to work for the commune to get his new whatever and is going to buy it outside of the commune with money from the food bucket?

Re:Only access, not the equipment

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Dishonesty should be severely punished anyway. At a minimum, exile from the commune seems fitting of the crime; but since we're talking about basically a free enterprise zone with different rules, it'd be whatever the commune charter calls for, up to and including the death penalty.

This is pretty basic- the earliest commune rules, such as St. Benedict's Rule, all include massive punishments for dishonesty that affects the community. You didn't really think that communism started with Marx, did you?

Re:Only access, not the equipment

[Marxist Hacker 42]

2nd answer: communes and FEZs only work locally with a fairly homogeneous culture. We've seen what can happen in the business world with dishonest businessmen- people get taken for millions and the fines are a very small fraction of the actual ammount. Dishonesty is really no different under communism than capitalism, and in both cases justice must be swift and violent, or else the system breaks down. Your example is no different than Ken Lay raiding the pension fund of Enron. What happened there?

Re:Only access, not the equipment

[quizwedge]

The book of Acts in the Bible talks about the believers held everything in common. This is the earliest example I know of off the top of my head. Not saying there aren't earlier versions, just an example older than Marx that came to mind.

My issue with communes is that many are utopian societies based on the (flawed) idea that human beings are good by nature. The other extreme is being forced to be part of the commune which I also don't agree with. If people want to get together and share their things in a commune willingly, I say go for it. I'll watch skeptically from the side to see any problems that creep up.

Re:Only access, not the equipment

[quizwedge]

See my other response where I basically agree. My disagreement was that you were assuming the basic goodness of humankind.

Re:Only access, not the equipment

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Of course, you do realize that the Corporatist takeover of capitalism amd the formation of the WTO means that you're already a part of the largest forced commune ever attempted, right? The trappings of capitalism are just kept to keep you from noticing the fact that you've already been sold into slavery in the great corporatist takeover of the world.

Re:Only access, not the equipment

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Which leads us back to a lack of evidence does not neccessarily imply a lack of existance. I didn't mean to make any such assumption. In fact- while I do believe in social engineering (there's the hacker portion coming back in); and providing incentives/disincentives, the whole idea is to give maximum freedom with a minimum of fuss and interferance from a centralized authority. OF COURSE some FEZs will fail, and some will succeed, and it's the ones that keep the best controls over the evil side of human nature that will succeed.

Re:Only access, not the equipment

[quizwedge]

Nope, it was merely a generalization of many that are pro-commune. You appear to have a well thought out idea. Keep it small and keep the evil in check

Re:Only access, not the equipment

[quizwedge]

I would say this depends highly on the country you're in and what you have access to. There are many work from home businesses for those that have the motivation and just need the tools. Those that have the skills can invent things to sell. Ultimately, if I wanted, I could have my own substance farm with some animals for meat/dairy, use solar and wind power, dig a well, have my own septic system, etc. and live all on my own. I could also invent something or use a trade to make the cash for my "food room jar" if I so desired. Instead, I choose to stay in an area where I can program and go to a grocery store to buy what I want to eat. If I was in a communist country such as China, I could understand where I would be forced, but in the USA I have the freedom to be what I want.

Re:Only access, not the equipment

[Marxist Hacker 42]

In that case- I think, to paraphrase the pointy haired boss, we have consensus.

Yes, I think that is the key- Dorthy Day was right back when she formed the Catholic Workers that distributionism, not communism, is key. Decentralization is the logical end point- because local decisions affect friends, neighbors, and relatives rather than the faceless consumers and workers in corporatism, or the faceless workers and comrades in communism. Once the masses become faceless, you've gone beyond any reasonable size for a community. At that point might as well turn it over to the computers- at least they won't try to get rich off of us.

Re:Only access, not the equipment

[Marxist Hacker 42]

My experience with work at home businesses have been that the majority of them are scams of one sort or another (from multi-level marketing to schemes to sell the small businessman a bunch of software and computers he doesn't need, to outright fake companies that merely take your investment money and you never hear from them again). But you're right on skills and inventions- that's where it's at. IF you can get past the larger businesses that would rather you not horn in on their market share- and you can find the money (there's that mythological item again, can't really get away from it unless we want to go back to a barter system), then you can make a living for yourself. A bare bones one. Of course you can always program for the larger guys- but they'll never pay you what your work is actually worth to the business, they've got to deduct their "profit" from it first (an old IWW saying is that profit is unpaid wages). So there's really no real difference between the force in China and the force in the USA- except the second is slightly more subtle- so subtle that you don't notice until you're not allowed to program for a living for 26 months.

Re:Only access, not the equipment

[quizwedge]

Yes, you're right, it will be a barebones living, at least when starting out, if you're trying to do things all on your own, but it's still a choice. I decided I like nice things like Air Conditioning, Electricity, close proximity to stores, etc. I also decided that I liked being able to actually buy things. As for getting paid what you're worth, that's based on a number of things and what you consider is worth pay. For example, I work for a small company and don't make what I'm worth in salary alone. The owners freely admit this, but there's not any money in a small startup company to pay large salaries. On the other hand, my schedule is pretty open, we have a fun atmosphere, and every once in a while we do fun things like going to see Shrek 2. I've decided that I'd rather get paid in the benefit of enjoying work than actual money. I've also had the opportunity to at least request a manger level job at some point. Presumably this would bring in added compensation but I'd be stuck using Microsoft Word instead of programming all day. I declined as I prefer to enjoy my job. Yes, the people on the top make the most money, but they also take the most risks. If you want to be on the top level invent something or invest in something that's starting up. You may make millions or you may lose it all.

Re:Only access, not the equipment

[J'raxis]

You do realize that communism (at least pre-Soviet) advocates the abolition of the State, correct?

Re:Only access, not the equipment

[Marxist Hacker 42]

I'd be happy to simply be compensated with the money I'd saved the companies I used to work for. Now, of course, thanks to corporatism I'm not allowed to work in private industry anymore; there are far more programmers in India who can do the same job for less compensation. I work in Government now- which I guess is a nice halfway point, but it sure would be nice if I was a permanent employee instead of a benefitless red badge contractor. Had to do that after 26 months of NOTHING and watching my hard-earned capitalist dream of owning my own home slowly go away. I ended up keeping the house (barely) but have no money for household repairs, and thanks to working 2 hours away, no time to do it myself either.

Re:Only access, not the equipment

[Colazar]

I live in WA state, which is the same way.

I would *rather* have an income tax and no sales tax, because state income tax is deductible from your federal income taxes, and sales tax isn't. This makes the overall tax burden for people in non-income tax states higher.

Our Congress-critters keep proposing a bill that would allow people in states with no income tax to deduct a portion of their sales tax from their federal income tax, but it keeps going nowhere. (I believe it has bipartisan support, but only in states with this situation, so this is not an R vs D issue.)

Re:Only access, not the equipment

[quizwedge]

Well, here's the thing. Companies employ techies like us to save them money, otherwise they'd keep on doing the same thing. I think to ask for all the money you saved the company is asking too much. Asking for a piece is not. That piece is your salaray / contract amount. If you wanted more, that's what negotiations are for. Free market economy sets the prices though so you can't demand 1 million dollars for a simple perl script even if it does save the company 1 million dollars.

Re:Only access, not the equipment

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Then that's where you and I differ- and that's where the basic premise of the free market falls down to me. To profit from another person's work to me is immoral to the point of being criminal; every cent of profit is a robbery from the people who do the actual work. That's why I have a problem with both corporatism and personal accumulation of wealth; to me all economic trasaction SHOULD be a zero sum game. Since it isn't, we need to provide incentives to make it so; that's what a truly progressive tax structure is for (kind of like this country had in the 1950s before the Screen Actors Guild under Ronald Reagan invented anti-tax lobbying).

Re:Only access, not the equipment

[quizwedge]

If there is no incentive of profit, where is the motivation? Let's take an example of a startup company. They need capital to get started so they come to me to invest. They take off and I make make money. They tank and I lose money. They've done all the work either way, but I've assumed risk. Let's take another example of a business. They're spending one million dollars to do a process. They find they can spend half that if they hire someone for $100,000. That person gets $100,000 and the company saves money. Both gain. If companies had to give all of their earnings away, they wouldn't try so hard to make a profit. It is the profit incentive that drives people to work harder or invest. If I know that I will be paid the same whether I'm developing geothermal power 16 hours a day or cleaning up trash along the side of the road for 1 hour a day I would, like most people, take the easy road and do 1 hour a day of work. Instead, there are salaries attached to different job levels to encourage people to work hard to advance.

Re:Only access, not the equipment

[Marxist Hacker 42]

If there is no incentive of profit, where is the motivation?

The motivation, to paraphrase Ben Franklin as he rejected the patent for his infamous stove, is to pay the world back for the great inventions by which we make our lives better. We should be honored to contribute back to the society.

Let's take an example of a startup company. They need capital to get started so they come to me to invest.

See, right there, you've made a mythical assumption- that one needs capital to create a startup company. Money is mythical in and of itself- it has no real value besides that which the shared myth gives it.

If I know that I will be paid the same whether I'm developing geothermal power 16 hours a day or cleaning up trash along the side of the road for 1 hour a day I would, like most people, take the easy road and do 1 hour a day of work.

I'm not sure that's an accurate description of "most people". I for one am going to invent whether I'm paid or not. Even during the 26 months that I was not allowed to work for private industry or government I achieved the following:

-I wrote and released into freeware an autodialer for the unemployed to file their weekly claims automatically.
-I wrote for myself a program that montitored my home network, the caller ID, and my e-mail for responses to the 100 resumes I was sending out daily
-I started a small, not very successfull, minimal capital web hosting business on my DSL line, which is still hosting pages for several nonprofits
-I became very politically and economically active, trying to discover and fight the root causes of the sudden loss of high tech business (which turned out not to be a loss of high tech business at all; but rather a sudden flight away from quality and towards cheap labor).

If I was offered the choice you give, between developing geothermal power 16 hours a day or cleaning up trash along the side of the road for 1 hour a day, I'd end up doing both- using the 1 hour a day cleaning up trash for think time on the geothermal project, because I simply can't stop working just because I'm not being paid for it. And from what I've seen in the "Save American Jobs" movement, there are a LARGE number of people out there just like me. It would be more fair if we were paid for our contributions to society; but it's obvious that this economic system is WAY too screwed up for that.

Re:Only access, not the equipment

[quizwedge]

See, right there, you've made a mythical assumption- that one needs capital to create a startup company. Money is mythical in and of itself- it has no real value besides that which the shared myth gives it.

Well, I agree. I work for bits of data that change numbers in my bank account so I can get this printed green stuff. Sometimes I just swipe a card and bits are transferred from my account to others. Still, most things have the value of the shared myth. Everyone needs food, water, and shelter. Those things can be bartered. Gold? Not worth anything other than it's shiny and people have a desire for it. Still, since so many believe in money, it's normally necessary to form a startup unless you can find vendors and employees who are willing to work for trade.

I'm not sure that's an accurate description of "most people". I for one am going to invent whether I'm paid or not. Even during the 26 months that I was not allowed to work for private industry or government I achieved the following:

Well, for me, I find that I like to spend my free time working with people and helping them out. This is just one of the reasons I work with a jr. high youth group. If I only had to put in 1 hour at my real job, I would have all that extra time to work with the jr. high as well as form other relationships that would be mutually beneficial.

Re:Only access, not the equipment

[realdpk]

"Even during the 26 months that I was not allowed to work for private industry or government I achieved the following:"

You keep saying that.

Were you in prison for 26 months?

Re:Only access, not the equipment

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Nope- just laid off and despite putting out 2,700 resumes during that time, jobless and forced to sell off assets to survive. It was at that point that I turned away from right wing rhetoric and gave up on the American Dream. It became quite clear to me that the only people allowed to live the American Dream are immigrants.

Re:Only access, not the equipment

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Well, for me, I find that I like to spend my free time working with people and helping them out. This is just one of the reasons I work with a jr. high youth group. If I only had to put in 1 hour at my real job, I would have all that extra time to work with the jr. high as well as form other relationships that would be mutually beneficial.

It's more than just mutually beneficial- working with the kids is a net bonus for society at large, as we won't be forced to put up those kids in prison later on. To that end, such behavior should be rewarded in society; and rewarded richly. But of course, this economy doesn't care about children or the future- that gets in the way of the three month bottom line, which must have profit NOW.

make them poor people pay the tax!

[gumbi west]

You gotta love Tennessee where the poor people have to pay most of the tax. tennesseans for fair taxation has lots of good information about how the tax code works there. here is a good example.

This relates to this post because internet access is not something that poor people can afford, i.e. this is a regressive tax cut.

Re:make them poor people pay the tax!

[lost_n_mad]

So it is unfair that people pay around abouts the same in taxes? Sure the 100k income family has more to save than the 15k, just like their example says. And while 9.75% is getting into the higher ranges, but adding an income tax has a certain amount of stupidity. Honestly have you ever heard of a politician reducing a tax?

Re:make them poor people pay the tax!

[gumbi west]

So it is unfair that people pay around abouts the same in taxes?

Go look at the example. Alternately, look at the wage break down of how much people pay in taxes. If you want to compare to a state that has a more fair system, look South Carolina.

[...] adding an income tax has a certain amount of stupidity. Honestly have you ever heard of a politician reducing a tax?

You must not have understood. I'm talking about an adjustment to the system. What most people don't understand (and this is oging to sound stupid, but it's true) is that the government both collects taxes and pays for programs that you enjoy. For example, if you ask people if they would rather pay social security tax and receive social security, most say yes. If you ask if people like social security tax, most say no. You are caught in this hole, my friend. If Tennessee did change the tax code they would have to add programs to sustain both taxes--there would have to be a reason to do this.

At the end of the day, I guess I just don't understand why there is a tax on not earning enough money. It seems like times in my life when I'm earning more money I would rater pay a higher proportional tax than times in my life when I am earning less.

Link for BellSouth customers

[Motherfucking Shit]

The link in the story points to a page at Time Warner's local (Memphis) site, twarner.com, which really only applies to RoadRunner refunds.

If you use or have used BellSouth internet access (dialup or DSL), they have set up a site specifically to handle claims under this settlement. Go to http://blstntaxrefund.com to apply for the reimbursement.

Does anyone know whether or not AOL is responsible for refunds, and/or how to request one?

missing links?

[conJunk]

info from the tennessee dept of revenue is available here but, can anyone find text of the ruling itself? that's what interests me, and google's not turning up much