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Complete Measurement of Molecular Breakup

Suidae writes "PhysicsWeb is reporting that physicists have made a 'complete' measurement of the break-up of a molecule for the first time. Reinhard Dörner of the University of Frankfurt and co-workers in Germany, the US, Australia and Spain recorded the two electrons and two nuclei that were released when a single photon split a molecule of deuterium into its basic components. The experiment could lead to a better understanding of many physical and chemical processes through improved knowledge of the quantum dynamics of many-particle systems."

32 comments

  1. Confusing by Micro$will · · Score: 1, Informative

    Deuterium is an isotope of hydrogen, not a molecule.

    FP BTW.

    1. Re:Confusing by wjwlsn · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Even weirder is this statement:

      In the experiments a single photon has enough energy (75.5 electron volts) to knock both electrons out of a deuterium molecule, and the two nuclei then fly apart because they are both positively charged.

      Excuse me? A deuterium nucleus has a proton and a neutron... only one of these has a positive charge.

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      Getting tired of Slashdot... moving to Usenet comp.misc for a while.
    2. Re:Confusing by dougmc · · Score: 3, Informative
      I agree, it's confusing.

      However, hydrogen (and deuterium, which is just hydrogen with an extra neutron) atoms are almost never found alone. They're found in molecules of two hydrogen atoms. I think that's what they're talking about breaking up.

    3. Re:Confusing by Micro$will · · Score: 0

      Maybe they're confusing the natural state of free hydrogen (H2) with deuterium, but I don't think H2 is a molecule.

    4. Re:Confusing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      oops

      So H2 IS a molecule, but it still isn't called deuterium.

    5. Re:Confusing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm pretty sure they are talking about a molecule consisting of TWO deuterium atoms - D2, if you will - as opposed to a typical diatomic molecule of ordinary hydrogen, H2.

      So the photon strips the electrons from the D2 MOLECULE, leaving two exposed deuterium nuclei, which then repel one another.

      Dr. Dave (doctorsilence.blogspot.com)

    6. Re:Confusing by brilinux · · Score: 1

      I could be wrong, but it does not seem that they broke up a molecule; it said that two molecules were released with two protons and two electrons: a proton and an electron from the deuterium atom, and the others came from the neutron. So it is confusing, but it looks like it was just the isotope and not a molecule.

    7. Re:Confusing by dougmc · · Score: 3, Informative
      And to expand on my other post in this thread, they're not breaking the nucleus up at all -- just knocking the two deuterium atoms apart.

      75 eV isn't nearly enough to split the nucleus apart anyways.

      I wonder why they used deuterium molecules rather than just hydrogen, though. I understand why they used hydrogen -- a hydrogen-hydrogen molecule is the simplest possible molecule -- but why deuterium?

      Let me see if I can answer my own question ...

      Deuterium has somewhat different chemical properties than hydrogen due to the different nuclear mass (classically, it's a two body problem, look up `reduced mass' if you want more details.) With a larger nucleus mass, the electrons would have a lower average kinetic energy, and by the virial theorem the average potential energy would therefore be higher (KE = - 1/2 PE) (a smaller absolute value, but it's negative, so it's higher) and therefore less tightly bound.

      So, I'm guessing they used deuterium molecules instead of hydrogen molecules because it would require less energy to split them apart. They're making things as easy as possible ...

    8. Re:Confusing by Meridun · · Score: 4, Informative

      D2 is the diatomic molecule for deuterium gas, which is the normal state of deuterium at STP (standard temperature and pressure).

      It's sometimes hard for people to bear in mind, but isotopes actually DO behave almost identically to each other in most non-nuclear chemical reactions.

      I found it very interesting when I was doing NMR (nuclear magnetic resonance; used to help determine molecular structures) work in the labs, we had to use deuterated solvents, so that they would resonate differently and therefore could be removed from the resulting data. Therefore, I would use D2O (deuterated water) and other common solvents that had all the hydrogens replaced with deuterium. Aside from the very expensive pricetag, you'd never have known the difference.

    9. Re:Confusing by dougmc · · Score: 1
      They used deuterium instead of ordinary hydrogen because it is heavier and therefore provides a higher target density for the photon beam.
      I missed this part earlier. I guess I should read more carefully before I try to figure stuff out on my own :)

      As they say -- a couple of months in the laboratory can frequently save a couple of hours in the library. :)

      I'm not sure their explanation really makes sense, however. It may just be overly simplified for the press ...

    10. Re:Confusing by wjwlsn · · Score: 1

      I thought about this a little more... they say "knock both electrons out", which means it has to be a molecule of deuterium they're talking about. Still, the article is a bit confusing.

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      Getting tired of Slashdot... moving to Usenet comp.misc for a while.
    11. Re:Confusing by dougmc · · Score: 1
      I could be wrong, but it does not seem that they broke up a molecule
      I'm pretty sure you're wrong.
      it said that two molecules were released with two protons and two electrons
      No, it didn't.
      with two protons and two electrons
      Are you reading the same article I am? They don't say that at all in the one I'm reading. The one I read only mentions protons as it explains what's in a deuterium and hydrogen atom.
    12. Re:Confusing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      No, it actually says that there were 2 electrons and 2 nuclei produced. Each deuterium has a nucleus (proton + neutron) and an electron.

      If the neutron had been converted into an electron and a proton like you imply above, we would have been talking about a subnuclear reaction or something and it would have taken a lot more than 75.5 eV.

    13. Re:Confusing by Cecil · · Score: 4, Informative

      Despite being the worst writeup EVER (Hello, could we get this submitted by someone who has more than a 1st grade science class under their belt?) after reading the article it's clear what they were doing.

      You seem to be confusing the meaning of 'nuclei' with 'subatomic particle'. Nuclei is the plural form of nucleus. They're talking about two seperate "nucleuses" which are flying apart, because both have an overall positive charge thanks to the proton, so both repel each other.

      To clarify what actually happened here: They started with a single molecule of deuterium. A molecule of deuterium is simply two deuterium atoms (deuterium is just like hydrogen, only it has a neutron in the nucleus as well) in a covalent bond, the exact same way hydrogen is normally found as an H2 molecule.

      Then they shot a photon at their molecule, which knocked the two electrons being shared by the two atoms away. Since the sharing of electrons is what causes a covalent bond to be happen in the first place, the bond breaks up, and they measure exactly what happened.

    14. Re:Confusing by wjwlsn · · Score: 1

      Hey, I'm not confusing the meaning of nucleus, nuclei, or nucleon. Heck, I even know the difference between an isotope (same number of protons, varying mass number) and an isotone (same mass number, varying number of protons). I also know that there was no way they were going to be splitting a nucleus with a 75 eV photon... if they were able to do that, we'd have free energy forever.

      What I was pointing out is that the article *did not make sense* as written. That is all.

      --
      Getting tired of Slashdot... moving to Usenet comp.misc for a while.
    15. Re:Confusing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      So H2 IS a molecule, but it still isn't called deuterium.

      Right, but D2 is.

    16. Re:Confusing by tigersha · · Score: 1

      But curiously, drinking deuterated water is apparently poisonous.

      --
      The dangers of excessive individualism are nothing compared to the oppressiveness of excessive collectivism
    17. Re:Confusing by Otter · · Score: 2, Insightful

      No, you're still not getting it! The molecule contains two nuclei bound by whatever interaction of the two electrons. The photon removes the electrons and the two nuclei, each of which is positively charged, fly apart.

    18. Re:Confusing by wjwlsn · · Score: 1

      Ugh. I hate being wrong. I re-read the article, and all the comments here, and I finally got it through my head. My conclusion: the article is okay as written, and I am an idiot.

      I can't figure out *what* I was thinking earlier. I must be suffering from a lack of caffeine or something. I'm going to go remedy that right now.

      Thank you for being a witness to my idiocy.

      --
      Getting tired of Slashdot... moving to Usenet comp.misc for a while.
    19. Re:Confusing by novakyu · · Score: 1
      75 eV isn't nearly enough to split the nucleus apart anyways.

      But that's not what they want to do. As someone must have (I mean, am I the only person who remembers high school chemistry?) mentioned it already, they are splitting an H_2 molecule into two atoms of H. (At the end, H- ions, presumably.) The fact that they are using deuterium doesn't change anything except that the H- ion is twice as heavy and that the target area (er, "cross-section," is probably the correct term).

      BTW, where did you get this quote?

      Deuterium has somewhat different chemical properties than hydrogen due to the different nuclear mass (classically, it's a two body problem, look up `reduced mass' if you want more details.) With a larger nucleus mass, the electrons would have a lower average kinetic energy, and by the virial theorem the average potential energy would therefore be higher (KE = - 1/2 PE) (a smaller absolute value, but it's negative, so it's higher) and therefore less tightly bound.

      You should tell them to fix their entry--I know what virial theorem is, and I know how to calculate the ionization energy of hydrogen atom. Unless you want to go into fine-structure splitting, most people assume that the nucleus has infinite mass (it's more than 1000 times as heavy as electron, so the error related to the approximation is less than 1 part in 1000). The only thing that's different with deuterium is that now your error is less than 1 part in 2000, if you used the infinitely-massive-nucleus approximation.

    20. Re:Confusing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the article says "knock both electrons out of a deuterium molecule".
      What is confusing about that?

  2. New Larry Wall Quote! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Stop fucking quoting me, damn it! -- Larry Wall in <200405106932.MAA00246@wall.org>

  3. Deuterium poisoning. by Christopher+Thomas · · Score: 4, Informative

    But curiously, drinking deuterated water is apparently poisonous.

    This is because the chemical behaviors of deuterium and light hydrogen are slightly different.

    You can think of the electron and nucleus co-orbiting about a common centre of mass, rather than the electron orbiting while the nucleus remains fixed. Where the point is depends on the ratio of the masses of the electron and the nucleus (about 2000:1 for light hydrogen, and about 4000:1 for deuterium). The different orbit radius (for any given energy) for each case means that the energy level at which the orbit circumference is an integer number of electron wavelengths will be different for deuterium and light hydrogen.

    This means that the energy structure of the electron shells is slightly different, which means that they will behave slightly differently chemically. This fact is exploited in some of the methods of isolating heavy hydrogen from light hydrogen (electrolysis method, as the reduction potential is different, and the more common chemical method involving forming hydrogen sulphide, as the rates of reaction are different).

    In the case of ingestion, deuterium's chemical behavior is similar enough to that of hydrogen that it gets incorporated into chemicals and otherwise interacted with as hydrogen would be, but different enough that it mucks up some of these reactions. Result, poisoning, much as you get from heavy metals displacing their chemical analogues (though less so, because D and H are a lot more similar, and your body cycles hydrogen through itself pretty quickly, while metals tend to accumulate).

    As far as hydrogen isotopes go, though, tritium is the main concern. It's a beta emitter, and is formed in water-cooled reactors (especially the heavy-water-moderated reactors Canada uses, as only one transmutation step is required instead of two). It's a very low-energy emitter, but if ingested, will still cause problems. It's less nasty than most contaminents, though, as hydrogen gets cycled through the body very quickly, and tritium has a half-life of about a decade (short enough to disappear within a lifetime, long enough that it cycles out of the body without depositing much of its radiation dose).

    Deuterium is mildly chemically toxic, but is not radioactive.

  4. How does this stuff get modded up? by mcmonkey · · Score: 2, Informative
    Deuterium is an isotope of hydrogen, not a molecule.
    That's like saying the iMac is an Apple, not a computer. Yes, Deuterium is an isotope of hydrogen. That does not preclude Deuterium molecules. Actually, it predicts it. We get D2 just like we get H2. But if you want to get that FP (and first mod) you can't let the facts get in the way.
    A deuterium nucleus has a proton and a neutron... only one of these has a positive charge.
    How is that 'interesting'???? Again, while technically true, that statement shows a complete ignorance of the discussion at hand. A proton has a positive charge. A nucleus of one proton and one neutron also has an overall positive charge. When you have two such nuclei they are both positively charged.

    Okay? Get it? There's nothing confusing about it; nothing weird. Two deuterium atoms come together to form a molecule. Each nucleus has a positive charge. They're breaking up a molecule, not an atom or nucleus.

  5. Confused by your confusion by mcmonkey · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Why do you think this has the worst writeup ever?

    A photon is used to break apart a molecule. Measurments are made; stuff might be learnt.

    It's actually a pretty good summary, especally by /. standards.

    1. Re:Confused by your confusion by Cecil · · Score: 1

      After re-reading it it's not very bad in a technical sense, but it's really hard to parse. The way everything was worded made it scream to me of fission/nuclear reaction rather than covalence/chemical reaction, which didn't make sense given the context of the specific nouns being used (chemical, physical, molecules, 75 eV, etc). The phrase that particularly bothered me was "split a molecule of deuterium into its basic components". I think it would be clearer to say something like "break apart a molecule of deuterium into ions". "Splitting" is a dangerous word to use when you're talking about nuclei, and it's unusual to refer to atoms and ions to be the "basic components" of a molecule, as it can actually be a pretty ambiguous term -- in a scientific context, basic components *really* means basic, when I read it. Like we're talking quarks, and those other odd little subatomic particles.

      The reference to quantum effects later on didn't help much either.

      But that's just one guy's opinion, and I haven't gotten much sleep in the past 36 hours, so I am probably perceiving things through the eyes of a crack addict, right now.

  6. Dr. Phil.. by tickticker · · Score: 1
    could probably have prevented these breakups and made them more emotionally compatable.

    Now do you believe I RTFA?

  7. So... how is this significant at all? by novakyu · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Not to play down the importance of experiments in physics (gosh, I'm a physicist. I should know), but how is this experiment important at all?

    Hydrogen atom (thus, I think, molecules...) is very well-studied theoretically. Gosh, they don't just stop at calculating different energy levels due to Coulomb force. At third-year level of undergraduate physics classes, they already calculate fine-structure splitting, hyperfine splitting, and even Zeeman splitting, in presense of a magnetic field. At that level, the theory is getting so accurate, and the energy level splitting becomes so small that if you want to fit a photon of right energy between the energy levels, you have to go down to the frequency of radio waves. It's not like we need experimental results (as in the case of more complicated atoms) because you can't solve (or approximate very closely) for the energy levels of the atom.

    Since deuterium is practically identical to hydrogen, unless you want to study the nucleus itself (I mean... it's two fermions, so something must be different, even though they are not identical particles), what's the point of publishing results of an experiment like this? This sounds not much more sophisticated (or important) than the experiments done in advanced physics lab (er... optical pumping, Rutherford scattering, NMR, etc. etc.).

    It would be a totally different matter if they found something that contradicted predictions of an established theory...but, did they?

    1. Re:So... how is this significant at all? by Mark+of+THE+CITY · · Score: 1

      It's a nit-picking examination of the dynamics of breaking a molecular bond, in the simplest stable case: a hydrogen molecule.

      Singly-ionized hydrogen is simpler but isn't stable.

      --
      The clearance system sounds logical. It is not. It is completely arbitrary. -- John Bolton
    2. Re:So... how is this significant at all? by Mcheck · · Score: 1

      Well... It's a many-body problem. It can't be solved analytically. In molecular physics (since they are all multi-body systems) you often make a bunch of assumpions about the motion of the nuclei not effecting the electrons,
      which is pretty close to true at normal energies,
      visible light, for instance. Pumping the energy up into this range gets to the point where you can't ignore the nuclear motion, so you get into areas where the usual equations don't work. Having real measurements of what is going on helps the theorist see which of the things he has been ignoring are important, and which aren't.

    3. Re:So... how is this significant at all? by novakyu · · Score: 1
      Pumping the energy up into this range gets to the point where you can't ignore the nuclear motion, so you get into areas where the usual equations don't work.

      I see... come to think of it, energy corresponding to 70+ eV is almost half-an-order-of-magnitude larger than the ionization energy of hydrogen. But, in case of H_2, is it really that much of a many-body problem? (I mean, I do understand that it is a four-body problem, but that's not nearly as complicated as solar system...)

      Well, on the second thought, I don't remember any treatment of covalent bonding in my QM courses. I probably should ask my GSI when I have a chance.

    4. Re:So... how is this significant at all? by esonik · · Score: 1
      OK, let me cite from the conclusion of the original paper:
      Thus we see complex structures in the electronic angular distribution that depend strongly on the molecular orientation and the inter-nuclear separation. The angular distributions, apparently highly influenced by an appropriate initial-state wavefunction, diffraction and electronelectron correlation, show behaviour that is both unexpected and not yet understood. Our results are highly sensitive and direct tests of the initial-state wavefunction and its correlation effects. An intricate calculation to address our observations is highly desirable. A complete treatment of the break-up of this fundamental molecule would mark a significant step towards understanding the quantum dynamics of many-particle systems, a subject central to most physical and chemical processes.


      So, apparently, this stuff is not fully understood yet and the experiment provides new data that can be used to improve modelling.
      Maybe you are confusing the hydogen atom with the hydrogen molecule ?

      This sounds not much more sophisticated (or important) than the experiments done in advanced physics lab

      First, I doubt that you have a 75 eV photon beam in your advanced physics lab. You really need a synchrotron for this.
      Second, keep in mind that they are measuring the momentum vectors of all four fragments (2 electrons & 2 nuclei) For this you need a detector that provides position and time resolution and has a large enough acceptance angle.