Maddog on the State of Linux

Amy Kucharik writes "Long-time Linux user and pioneer Jon "maddog" Hall spoke recently with SearchEnterpriseLinux.com about what he knows best: Linux. Hall discusses where the penguin is going and where it's been in this exclusive interview."

Comments

in time for 2008?

[BortQ]

I can see it now: The US passes an amendment to allow foreign citizens to be president and we get a Linus vs. Arnold campaign.

And be careful, because if 'Linus' isn't a girlieman name then I don't know what is.

Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

Many people have had problems in fitting Firefox into their Microsoft suite because of Microsoft's "integration."

Say what? Who is having problems fitting Firefox into their Microsoft "suite" (whatever that is)? What the hell is he talking about?

Re:Huh?

[DAldredge]

That would be Office.

Re:Huh?

[scupper]

How about Sharepoint? I've read there are a lot of problems with that as well.

Re:Huh?

[IamTheRealMike]

As in lots of web apps written by Microsoft or Microsoft-shops require IE. Firefox compatibility isn't good enough to run these, so they continue to use IE.

Re:Huh?

[Foggerty]

i.e. People wanting to use something like WebEx, or a custom built application that requires ActiveX. Not justifing it (by a long shot), but you might be suprised at how many "web" apps have been written that only work on IE.

Good stuff

[Omniscientist]

Microsoft does not do a "good job" of tying its products together. If they did, they would use open, published standards and interfaces to allow customers to use other components as desired.

This guy is funny, perhaps because he's being honest.

Re:Good stuff

[TykeClone]

I'd disagree there - they do a good enough job to achieve lock-in. Look at Outlook/Exchange Server - you need to use the Outlook client to really leverage Exchange; to get a good deal on the Outlook client, you get it bundled with the rest of Office; to make good use of your Office investment, use Windows Server...

It mostly works good enough to make it difficult to break out of it - which is where the problem with moving to Linux lies.

Re:Good stuff

[Anonymous Coward]

On the contrary -- as in that quote, he frequently gave the impression that he doesn't have the slightest idea what Microsoft software can and can't do. He's been a Unix guy for so long it's not surprising but he sounds like his understanding of Microsoft comes from listening to Linux zealots.

I dunno, I was pretty disappointed in this interview. I'd expected better.

Re:Good stuff

[Anonymous Coward]

He's been a Unix guy for so long it's not surprising but he sounds like his understanding of Microsoft comes from listening to Linux zealots.

Sounds like most Slashdotters, actually.

Re:Good stuff

[Usquebaugh]

Least he put his name to his comments?

Time to get in linux

[ThumbSuck]

Hall joined Linux International as a volunteer in 1991 and has been using Linux since 1994.

So now we know that it takes 3 years of knowing about linux before one is willing to use. Now that Linux has been hyped (at least here) 2003-04, we might expect larger numbers in mmm...06-07?

Re:Time to get in linux

[k_187]

Dude, linux has been hyped on here since I joined way back in '99. I'd imagine that simply knowing about it is just one step to getting more people to use it.

Re:Time to get in linux

[Anonymous Coward]

Linux is used in about 20-30% of all servers deployed out there. And FOSS accounts for over 70% of all internet servers.

I think that Linux acceptance it doing pretty good. They just have to work on the desktop, which is about 2-3% usage right now.

Shower Knobs

[MindDelay]

Recently, I was in a shower in Korea, and the shower knobs were smooth and covered with soapy water. I could not turn on the cold water, and I was almost scalded. I suggested that the management go to the hardware store and buy new handles for the faucets, ones with rougher knobs. This would be possible due to the standards in the plumbing industry that set the size of pipes, screw pitch, etc., and allow you to put several different styles of knobs on the end of the pipes. If Microsoft had built the hotel, they would have to rip out the entire piping system, all the way back to the water supply on the street and replace the entire thing, just to allow me to use a different manufacturer's knobs.

HAHAHA, that's one of the funniest things i've ever seen said about microsoft.

Re:Shower Knobs

[gl4ss]

yeah but..

nerd.. shower?

what was he doing there, installing linux? /almost 5:30 am bad joke

Re:Shower Knobs

[styrotech]

HAHAHA, that's one of the funniest things i've ever seen said about microsoft.

What, that they have smooth soapy knobs?

Re:Shower Knobs

[MindDelay]

What, that they have smooth soapy knobs?

yes, i love microsofts knobs.

Anyone can complain

[Anonymous Coward]

it takes an entity with vision to do something.

I would have liked to hear more details in this interview on how the LSB project is going and the other activities going on at the Free Standards organization since Jon is on their Board of Directors.

Hail Hall!

[wardle]

Was it just me at this time of the morning, but did anyone else keep reading the replies as "HAIL!" ....

Maybe I'm going mad.

No wonder

[FullMetalAlchemist]

It's no wonder that people think of Linux users as totally clueless, because if one of the pioneers have no clue at all, then what about the rest?

If there is anything like bad press then Bruce Perens, maddog, ESR and RMS are the pioneers of it.

You fellows should be glad that Linus is such a lovely chap, he can sometimes make up for it.

Seriously, if Linux was a company and had all the same incompetent spokespersons it would be in the gutter.

Maybe Linus can gag them for attampt on ruining his reputation. ;)

Seriously, couldn't Linus assign official spokespersons so that us non Linux users can hear something other than uninformed opinions?
That would be great, because; even though I will never use Linux; I'm still interested in what is _really_ going on.

Re:No wonder

[happyDave]

Not flaming, just curious: Why is he totally clueless? What specifically in the article, and in the behavior of Perens, ESR, and RMS, leads you to think they are clueless? I think a case can definitely be made for it, so I'd like to hear yours.

Re:No wonder

[FullMetalAlchemist]

Jon is clueless about all things related to Mircosoft, which is nothing strange from where he comes from.
I, however, originally came from the UNIX (BSD)world and has gone to the Microsoft .NET platform. Now knowing what Microsoft is today brings Jon's statements in a different light than probably most /.tters.
Everything Microsoft is available through .NET, which by the way are mostly very open standards, except for WinForms and that doesn't really bother me all that much.

The others are just pure flamethrowers.

That's what I like about Linus, he usually doesn't talk about things of which he doesn't know a great deal.

Re:No wonder

[Anonymous Coward]

It's called free-software, free as in freedom of speech, not price. Alot of people agree with RMS even if you do not, and we are not concerned about how many people use free software.

No mention of Evolution/SUSE/Open Exchange

[scupper]

When Maddog was asked about communications and e-mail applications running on Linux making a dent into Outlook/Exchange, I was kinda dissapointed to not hear mention of Evolution and Evolution Connector, or SUSE Linux Open Exchange Server (SLOX) migrations going on with companies like RICIS and IDL .

I understand his point about Sendmail and developing countries adopting F/OSS, but the question was pretty pointed;
"any communications and e-mail F/OSS apps running on Linux that might make a dent in Outlook/Exchange?"

He could have shared the fact that......

IDL Technology Group in CA-US claims :

" Together, Ricis and I.D.L. Technology Group have installed over 1,000 Openexchange servers in 2003 and have performed more than 340 Microsoft Exchange to SUSE LINUX Openexchange migrations, as well as over 150 migrations from other Email server platforms using various SUSE LINUX (Now Novell) approved migration tools.

Those are the kind of facts Senor Maddog needs to be dropping. Also, here's a online demo for SLOX 4.1
(BTW: I don't work for SUSE/Novell, RICIS, IDL)

Why GNU's dying.

[Anonymous Coward]

GNU is born to defeat proprietary software.
This will never happen, because this would go a little bit against *liberty* (developers want to be *free* to publish *their own* software under the license they prefer, not be *forced* to use the GPL because some guy wants to be "free" to read SOMEONE ELSE's code...)
As long as there's capitalism (forever, hopefully: we don't want a China-like regime..) proprietary software will always exist.

GNU is gonna end up just like communism - dead.
Luckily.

One of the many people who don't like microsoft and the big corporations, but dislike communists more.

Re:Why GNU's dying.

[bitwiseNomad]

GNU is born to defeat proprietary software.

Nope. GNU and proprietary software can peacefully coexist and not bother each other. Microsoft will tell you otherwise, but there is nothing about the GNU GPL and other proprietary liscences that means that they can't coexist in the world together. That being said, I will grant that the liscences are incompatible (meaning you can't insert GPL code into a closed project, and you can't steal someone's code without a liscence to put into a GPL project), but being incompatible does not mean that the two paradigms are adversarial. GNU was created because people wanted something, not because they hated and wanted to destroy something. People who don't like the GNU GPL are free to not participate as they please, and that means you, too.

developers want to be *free* to publish *their own* software under the license they prefer, not be *forced* to use the GPL because some guy wants to be "free" to read SOMEONE ELSE's code...

Okay. Here's an easy question. Can I force you to release your software under the GPL? If you think that as a GNU developer I can force you to release your project under the GPL, how would I go about doing so? Is there a legal proceeding involved? Do I have to make you sign a contract you don't agree to? Nobody is holding you at gunpoint and commandeering your *freedom* to do anything.

But here's the key. You don't have to do anything, but you don't get something for nothing. For example, if you want to use a module written by Microsoft in one of your projects, you have to do something called liscencing it. A liscence is a contract that you enter into with Microsoft in order to use their code. In exchange for the ability to use their code legally, you would probably have to:

1.) pay them a royalty for every copy you sell

2.) sign a non-disclosure agreement (a contract that says you won't even talk to anyone else about what the source code is)

3.) agree to not redistribute the source code to anyone else and

4.) agree to not alter the code in any way.

These are all terms of the liscence contract you enter into when you decide to use Microsoft's code. The GNU GPL is a contract just like Microsoft's contracts, but the only difference is that terms of the agreement are different.

The point is that it's a contract. You don't have to agree to it if you don't like the terms. If you don't like the GNU GPL, then you don't have to agree to it. But not agreeing to and not complying with the GPL means that you can not use any GPL'd code in your project. Why is this okay? It's okay because you couldn't use the code before anyway. You aren't automatically entitled to any code I write. I hold the copyright to it which means that I get to decide the terms of redistribution. If you don't like the terms of my contract, you can write the source code yourself, and you are more than welcome to.

The same goes for Microsoft. If you don't like Microsoft's liscencing agreements then you don't have to use their code. You seem to be saying that just because a piece of source code is out there you should have to use it, whether or not you like the terms. People write different source code all the time to do the same things over and over again. And you can, too. But you can't use my code without agreeing to my terms.

A slight snag

[scupper]

I remembered reading this, and went back to read about Netline, and discovered this little fact in the article...

"Server software maker goes open source" :

" However, Netline will keep some of the software proprietary. The open-source version lets computer users tap into its functions with Web browsers, but those wanting to use Microsoft Outlook or Novell Evolution will have to buy a separate module from Netline. "If you want to use Outlook as your preferred client, you need an add-on from our site which is not open-source," Hoberg said."

This article from May '04 on Connector and YAST talks about Novell's strategy with releasing source code with.

Hot soapy, smooth knobs... erm

[tod_miller]

from the interview

Recently, I was in a shower in Korea, and the shower knobs were smooth and covered with soapy water. I could not turn on the cold water, and I was almost scalded. I suggested that the management go to the hardware store and buy new handles for the faucets, ones with rougher knobs. This would be possible due to the standards in the plumbing industry that set the size of pipes, screw pitch, etc., and allow you to put several different styles of knobs on the end of the pipes. If Microsoft had built the hotel, they would have to rip out the entire piping system, all the way back to the water supply on the street and replace the entire thing, just to allow me to use a different manufacturer's knobs.

Freud would have a field day on this chappy!

OK it was immature. and fun! (it worked if you saw the subtext)

Actually, that may have been a freudian slip...

[tod_miller]

And might say more about me than him! argh, erm, Rugby... hunting... shooting things, cars... yes, golf... no too lady like.