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Sun Adds Java and N1 to No Cost List

Posted by ScuttleMonkey on from the give-it-away-give-it-away-now dept.

An anonymous reader writes "Sun announced today that they would be making a number of tools available at no cost for both development and deployment in addition to reaffirming their commitment to open source the software. This is to include the Java Enterprise Syste, Sun N1 Management software, and Sun developer tools. From the announcement: "With this announcement, Sun is creating the no cost and open alternative to the Windows environment. The Solaris Enterprise System has all of the benefits of an integrated offering while still enabling customers the flexibility to address their requirements by deploying the specific components they need into alternative operating systems."

40 comments

  1. oh noes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1, Flamebait

    C# is still > Java

    1. Re:oh noes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sure, C# introduces few nice syntactic sugars that aren't too bad.

      Then how about.. The platform? Tools? Maturity? Cross-platformness? The amount of runtimes on consumer machines? Documentation? Openness? Ahahahahahaha.

    2. Re:oh noes by fishybell · · Score: 4, Interesting
      C# is still > Java

      I guess that's true...ish.

      It's true in the same way that Oranges > Apples.

      If C# still exists 10 years from now, is more opened, has better cross-platform capabilities, and has become as pervasive as Java and javascript, then we can talk. Until then, adieu.

      --
      ><));>
    3. Re:oh noes by Umbral+Blot · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I hope you realize that Java != Javascript. Anyways why would a language's popularity influence the quality of the language? Bad languages can be widely used (COBOL at one time), while good ones may only take root in niche markets.

      --

      Philosophy.
    4. Re:oh noes by NitsujTPU · · Score: 1

      If C# still exists 10 years from now, is more opened, has better cross-platform capabilities, and has become as pervasive as Java and javascript, then we can talk. Until then, adieu.

      C# will exist 10 years from now. Don't delude yourself into thinking that MS will tank within a decade.

      Sun Microsystems owns Java, don't trick yourself into thinking that its an open standard just because it's distributed with source.

      Why the hell does javascript enter into this conversation?

      If you're concerned with the web development market (sounds like you are), then C# is superior in many respects, codebehind being #1 in this regard in my opinion. I, however, tend to develop libraries of commonly used primitives early in projects, so after about the first month, everything sort of becomes the same.

      Crossing platforms isn't important if you only want to appeal to Windows users, and you can make plenty of money like that.

      C# is an open spec, Mono implements it under Linux. If you were to use a platform specific SDK under any language, you'd be bound to the underlying platform. Just this week I wrote Java code that will only execute properly under Linux.

      All that aside, you could develop an argument along the lines of what you're shooting for. You just didn't do so successfully. Put aside the anti-MS rhetoric and make a real argument, then you'll be fine. You can even make a real argument against MS if you like... I don't really care.



      Now, to break down openness. C# is open, for the most part, in the way that people want things to be open. It has an open spec. It's proprietary, but, oh well, so is Java.

      If you're going to argue the open source argument, well, plenty of Linux figures have publicly stated that open source Java code is completely worthless, because it relies on Sun proprietary infrastructure. Even if there are 100% binary compatible Linux JVMs, well, guess what, Sun Microsystems can go and change Java tomorrow, and your cross-platform capabilities will again drive you to their product.

      *insert self-righteous sounding comment here*, I bid you adieu.

    5. Re:oh noes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      Hi All,

              AC here, ever-ready to add my invaluable insights:

              C++ and C#, are mere language specifications. Java is a 'platform', and we are all free to leap from that platform at any time we chose. Personally, I'm planning to Hibernate until Spring, when the male of the species Struts its stuff on said platform. I may even stuff some Enterprise Beans in my trunks, but lets keep that on the QT, OK ?

              I hope this clears things up.

      Cheers,

      AC

    6. Re:oh noes by jma05 · · Score: 1

      Popular languages
          -> better implementations
          -> more libraries
      But
          -> evolution slow as molasses

    7. Re:oh noes by pebs · · Score: 2, Insightful

      C# will exist 10 years from now. Don't delude yourself into thinking that MS will tank within a decade.

      I think what he was talking about is whether MS will actively support and develop C# in 10 years. Look what happened to VB, they abandoned it to move on to the next big thing (VB.Net is not the same language as VB and it certainly isn't compatible). What's to say they won't abandon C# so they can sell the next big thing to their customers by forcing them to upgrade due to lack of support for the older tech? In fact, history shows that this is what they do.

      Sure, there is the Mono implementation, but what if you are relying on MS-only libraries or Mono isn't enough for whatever reason, you're shit out of luck. And if Novell gives up on Mono, and no one takes over, you're especially out of luck unless you have the resources to continue its development yourself.

      --
      #!/
    8. Re:oh noes by ultranova · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If you're going to argue the open source argument, well, plenty of Linux figures have publicly stated that open source Java code is completely worthless, because it relies on Sun proprietary infrastructure.

      Which of course is rubbish. Open sourced Java programs can be redistributed and modified, just like any open source program; they require a JVM, but then again, any program needs a processor, and besides there are open source JVMs.

      Even if there are 100% binary compatible Linux JVMs, well, guess what, Sun Microsystems can go and change Java tomorrow, and your cross-platform capabilities will again drive you to their product.

      Why yes, Sun Microsystems can indeed go and make a new version of Java, utterly incompatible with any previous version. Now, if my code works on some OS implementation of JVM, why on Earth would I be driven to move from this working platform to the new, incompatible Java (which, by definition of "incompatible", would require that I port my application, and couldn't run any other existing Java programs for the same reason) ? Why would anyone ?

      Please explain ?

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    9. Re:oh noes by NitsujTPU · · Score: 1

      VB is a terrible language.

      C# is actually fairly good.

    10. Re:oh noes by NitsujTPU · · Score: 1

      Well, you can feel that way, but that is not and has not been the stance of the FSF.

      As for cross platform. If your goal is to serve content to a wide audience, and the future JVM is not backward compatible, then you would have to upgrade in order to meet your whole audience, or force them to run more than 1 JVM. Gosh, I seem to remember this happening before.

      At my old company, we ran a piece of software that required the MS VM. It was incompatible with the Sun JVM. I wrote a product that required the Sun JVM. The internal debacle was annoying, especially given that MS had already stopped distributing that particular VM.

      To turn the question on you. If MS dropped a C# CLR on you... perhaps, I don't know, Mono, would you run C# apps on it... or is does your view only apply when the language is Java and the corporate interest is not MS?

    11. Re:oh noes by ultranova · · Score: 1

      Well, you can feel that way, but that is not and has not been the stance of the FSF.

      FSF is free to have whatever stance they want, and so am I. While I often agree with them, I must disagree on this point.

      As for cross platform. If your goal is to serve content to a wide audience, and the future JVM is not backward compatible, then you would have to upgrade in order to meet your whole audience, or force them to run more than 1 JVM. Gosh, I seem to remember this happening before.

      A bit like how C programs can break if they don't have correct versions of libraries available, right ?

      At my old company, we ran a piece of software that required the MS VM. It was incompatible with the Sun JVM. I wrote a product that required the Sun JVM. The internal debacle was annoying, especially given that MS had already stopped distributing that particular VM.

      Yes, MS tried their standard EEE (embrace, extend, extinquish) tactics with Java, didn't they ? The idea was to make people think that they were writing Java programs, when in reality they were writing to MS's perversion of it.

      Apparently your old company fell for MS's scam.

      To turn the question on you. If MS dropped a C# CLR on you... perhaps, I don't know, Mono, would you run C# apps on it... or is does your view only apply when the language is Java and the corporate interest is not MS?

      Unfortunately, I find myself incapable of comprehending what you wrote, and am therefore uncapable of answering your question, since I don't know what you are asking. Please clarify your question.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    12. Re:oh noes by NitsujTPU · · Score: 1

      A bit like how C programs can break if they don't have correct versions of libraries available, right ?

      You're playing both sides of the issue to be right. It is sort of the same, but, eh, not really. Apparently your old company fell for MS's scam.

      Actually, it was PragmaSystems that did, I called their staff several times to ask when they would have a migration strategy, but it caused enough of a headache for me.

      Unfortunately, I find myself incapable of comprehending what you wrote, and am therefore uncapable of answering your question, since I don't know what you are asking. Please clarify your question.

      Ok, to break it down. If C# programs run in a cross-platform binary compatible format, and they were to offer software to allow C# programs to run under Linux, would you then feel the same about C# as you do about Java?

      The question is, if C# were Microsoft's Java, and it did all of the same things as Java, would you defend Microsoft's actions, or are you merely arguing all of this because it's anti-Microsoft?

      The reason that I ask is because I feel that, too often, Slashdot posters are so willing to argue against Microsoft that it doesn't really matter what Microsoft did. If a competing company does exactly the things that we accuse Microsoft of, that's ok, but when it's Microsoft, it's a problem.

      The problem is, the user can never explain why it's a problem. When you have a majority of users who behave this way, well, Slasdhot posters become a liability to the community, because they demonstrate that it's not so much that they're pro-Open Source, it's that they're anti-Microsoft. Not only that, but it shows that they're nothing but shills echoing the point of view on an Internet forum. If they were something more, they could identify what it is about Microsoft that has irked them.

      It's a discredit to the entire community.

      That said, you're free to maintain your views regarding Java.

      I certainly hope that this does not become a flame-war. I'm much too busy this time of year for that.

    13. Re:oh noes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you're concerned with the web development market (sounds like you are), then C# is superior in many respects, codebehind being #1 in this regard in my opinion. I, however, tend to develop libraries of commonly used primitives early in projects, so after about the first month, everything sort of becomes the same.

      And that shows you know crap about Java web development technologies. Probably you're a refugee from ASP or PHP that found the "marvelous world of codebehind" ignoring that only kid developers would actually put logic in the page itself.

      And then you cite "libraries of commonly used primitives" !! What!? You mean, implement the class hierarchy representing the business model you previously defined, and how would that be different from any other language?

      I just don't want to believe that you do procedural programming on C# because of putting "primitives" instead of "abstrations" on libraries.

      Sun Microsystems owns Java, don't trick yourself into thinking that its an open standard just because it's distributed with source.

      http://jcp.org/en/home/index

      Enjoy.

      Now see how other companies have a say in how Java technology evolves while with Microsoft everyone just follows (and get screwed with the next incompatible version). Don't come with that opensource crap, the only vocal people about such thing ARE NOT JAVA DEVELOPERS, Java developers would rather have their arm chopped off THAN HAVE TO SELECT BETWEEN 5182 INCOMPATIBLE FLAVORS OF JAVA, just like we do today with Linux.

      So, 5182 different "distributions"? Is that what a conscious developer wants? I don't think so.

      Unix was so successful in having hundreds of based versions, that Windows could win and now we use this crap. All I can say about it is F*** OPENSOURCE ZEALOTS, I want a consistent compatible portable Java, and not Joe's Java, Debian GNU/Java, or Mandrake Java.

      Anyone is free to implement Java, as a matter of fact, a lot of people already did. See project Apache Harmony, the only thing is that it MUST be 100% compatible with Java in order to be called Java.

    14. Re:oh noes by NitsujTPU · · Score: 1

      I've developed large applications in both.

      Thanks for making it personal.

      I'll avoid the obvious digs on you.

    15. Re:oh noes by NitsujTPU · · Score: 1

      Oh well, lets continue with this.

      I like codebehind. I don't claim to be a crack web developer.

      I actually know a good bit about java :-D

      I'm not a refugee from ASP or PHP. I developed mostly unix platform software, including some radar and such, until my company decided to go web shop. Not wanting to be stuck for the rest of my life as some web developer, I bailed and returned to grad school to get a PhD.

      Now, all of that aside, I'd rather never identify myself as a "Java" developer, or a "C++" developer, because I feel that that ties me to some lame vocational role. If anything, I'd rather be identified as a programmer, knowing a bit about a number of languages, and a lot about algorithms and such.

      Interestingly, that's what I was. I can program in a good number of languages, and have a solid backing in theory and such.

      Anyway, all of that aside, calling me stupid is about the lamest thing that you could possibly have done.

    16. Re:oh noes by NitsujTPU · · Score: 1

      Oh, ok, one more.

      If I'm writing an application that lists x items from a data structure, then I'm putting that into the page through codebehind. I'll also stick my buttons onto the page and whatnot. I feel that codebehind is superior for this, over mixtures of JSP and servlets.

      Get it?

      I actually understand how to construct an app fairly well.

      As far as libraries of well known primitives. If you had read my post, you'd realize that I was saying that the difference is negligible after working for a few weeks in either language.

      In fact, my entire premise was that the difference is fairly negligible, not that C# was all that great.

      Also, the JCP doesn't constitute a standard of any sort.

    17. Re:oh noes by ultranova · · Score: 1

      Ok, to break it down. If C# programs run in a cross-platform binary compatible format, and they were to offer software to allow C# programs to run under Linux, would you then feel the same about C# as you do about Java?

      No. Microsoft has tried to lock people into Windows so many times (of which you gave a good example yourself) that I would be extremely suspicious of any claims of cross-platform compatibility from them.

      The question is, if C# were Microsoft's Java, and it did all of the same things as Java, would you defend Microsoft's actions, or are you merely arguing all of this because it's anti-Microsoft?

      For C# to be Microsofts Java, Microsoft would have to be a different company, making this a somewhat pointless question. As it is, I find it extremely hard to believe that Microsoft is going for system independence, since that is in direct conflict with everything they've done this far.

      The reason that I ask is because I feel that, too often, Slashdot posters are so willing to argue against Microsoft that it doesn't really matter what Microsoft did. If a competing company does exactly the things that we accuse Microsoft of, that's ok, but when it's Microsoft, it's a problem.

      Microsoft has a pretty horrible reputation. That makes people interpret Microsofts moves in worst possible way; and, a lot of the time, those interpretations turn out to be correct.

      Think of it this way: when a group of unknown horsemen is seen riding towards a town, it evokes mild curiosity. When those horsemen turn out to be Attila the Hun and the Mongol Horde, there's mass panic ;).

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    18. Re:oh noes by NitsujTPU · · Score: 1

      Ahh, but see, that's where we don't agree. Even if Microsoft is evil, you have to allow the possibility for them being good.

      They can't do the wrong thing if there is no right thing for them to do. Think of it game-theoretically, in terms of Nash equilibria.

      THE MS IS EVIL PROBLEM

      We assume that Microsoft only does the wrong thing when there is a benefit to doing so of, eh, +10.
      We assume that being well thought of, however, for some reason, is a good thing... Eh, also +10.
      The converse in either case is -10.
      The column on the left is what the public will think of MS after they commit their actions.
      Since you've preconditioned that MS is evil, we'll assume that MS starts out evil.
      (Curse slashdot for having no way of doing tables in your posts). I can't get the table to look right, but if you work out the Nash, MS has no motivation to do anything but evil, since it's the safest strategy in this scenario.

      TABLE WAS HERE

      We can see clearly, that if MS can make the public think that they are good, while doing evil things, that they stand to gain the most benefit. Also, if they're stuck with you thinking that they are evil, then their strategy does not change. In fact, there is no reason for them to do the right thing, since they will never benefit from having done so.

  2. Better links by ChrisRijk · · Score: 4, Informative

    http://www.sun.com/aboutsun/media/presskits/nov30/
    http://www.sun.com/software/solaris/what_you_get.j sp

    http://www.sun.com/smi/Press/sunflash/2005-11/sunf lash.20051130.1.html

  3. The JavaPosse podcast.... by tcopeland · · Score: 5, Informative

    ...has been tracking the various Sun Java-related giveaways; you can hear them talk about the Java Studio Creator and Java Studio Enterprise giveaway in JavaPosse # 13.

    I highly recommend the JavaPosse podcasts; it's a great way to keep up with the latest developments in Java. Haha, get it, developments! Anyhow. They do a nice job of tracking things that most Java developers may not be using but will be someday - i.e., the recent discussions of the Mustang Hotspot speed improvements and such.

    Disclaimer: They just interviewed me about PMD and my book PMD Applied. But still!

    --
    The Army reading list
    1. Re:The JavaPosse podcast.... by fbg111 · · Score: 0

      As someone who's never been interviewed by the Java Posse, and probably never will be, I second your recommendation. Great podcast!

      --
      Flying is easy, just throw yourself at the ground and miss. -Douglas Adams
  4. Hey Editor... by afabbro · · Score: 1
    ...you didn't close one of your quote marks.

    I hope you don't code in Lisp.

    --
    Advice: on VPS providers
  5. yay SUN by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1, Flamebait

    Everybody please buy their stock :)

  6. so.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Does that mean I can finally type "emerge sun-jdk" on my Gentoo box and have it download and install in one easy step, without having to go to their stupid site and click on some stupid EULA??

    Free as in beer, or free as in "not being a goddamn pain in the ass"?

    1. Re:so.... by chris_mahan · · Score: 1

      I hear you. I don't install java on my debian boxes for the exact same reason. It's such a pita.

      --

      "Piter, too, is dead."

    2. Re:so.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You run Gentoo and complain that clicking on somthing is hard...

    3. Re:so.... by garrett714 · · Score: 1

      All I had to do on my debian box was download the tarball from Sun and extract it where I wanted (/usr/java/jre1.5x) Then I copied the java runtime for mozilla to my firefox plugins dir. Wasn't really that difficult.

    4. Re:so.... by Breakfast+Pants · · Score: 1

      To get the tarball from Sun you have to do all that registration crap, etc.. Worthless.

      --

      --

      WHO ATE MY BREAKFAST PANTS?
    5. Re:so.... by heanol · · Score: 1

      Yeah, clicking one "i agree" box is alot of registration crap.

  7. What does this mean... by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1

    I been out of the Java scene since I'm no longer taking any classes in Java. Seems like getting back into Java means learning a new alphabet soup. Without buying another doorstop-size book, what does this mean?

    1. Re:What does this mean... by fishybell · · Score: 0
      The main (or at least a large) reason I never actively pursued a career in Java programming is because of need for buzzword-compliance. For example, let's say I want to make a program, any ol' program, what do I use? J2EE, JavaBeans, Eclipse, or "pure" Java? Java proponents say it's all about choice. I don't want choice. In C/C++, I write a program for windows with MFC, I write an application for linux with GTK. Why must there be a huge lack of standardization?

      On a side note, the only job I did have to use Java in was a buzzword-compliant startup. Can you guess where they are now?

      --
      ><));>
    2. Re:What does this mean... by innosent · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Aside from the Eclipse example (which really didn't have anything to do with Java, other than that the Eclipse people wanted to make up for some of the weaknesses of Swing [most of which no longer exist]), there really isn't that much choice. J2EE = J2SE + a few items, JavaBeans is basically just a framework for certain tasks, and if you don't need any of the specialized features of the add-ons, there really isn't anything other than "pure" Java. The core language today isn't that different from what it was 10 years ago, and having a large number of add-on packages available isn't something that should be viewed as a bad thing. A Java app will still run on all Java platforms, provided that any additional packages are installed. Choice in things like SOAP implementations, XML parsers, and application servers is a good thing, and it doesn't mean that the language isn't "standardized". If anything, Java is more "standardized" than C/C++. The Java String class is always in java.lang.String, while a String in C++ is in a different place depending on the compiler used. C and C++ certainly do better in some areas than Java, and Java does better in some areas than C/C++, but that doesn't make either one bad, or either one good.

      Also, poor business model != poor choice of language. There are plenty of viable Java development shops. Language is just a tool to get the job done, and your favorite language may not always be the best choice for what you want to do. For some things, LISP is a great language, but I wouldn't want to write a VoIP softphone in it.

      Back on topic though, as a developer, I always love free development tools, but in this case, as a shareholder, I'm not quite sure how they're going to make money on this. Good will can be hard to deposit in your bank account. At least they have 8-core processors and Opteron servers to (hopefully) turn a profit.

      --
      --That's the point of being root, you can do anything you want, even if it's stupid.
  8. Free! Java Studio ($1,895 value)! by acomj · · Score: 3, Informative

    Well according to the web site.
    Sun has got to get better names for things.. Its still so damm confusing. (java studio creator/java studio enterprise/ sunstudio). As a result I can't tell what the press release is giving away...

    http://developers.sun.com/prodtech/devtools/free/

    Is this what there talking about? I've been playing around with java studio creator, its really really nice actually. Of course I use php not jsp/servlets, but its defenetly making me think about switching.

  9. The Bigger Picture by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In several years, the typical response will be "Microsoft who?"

    Sun and IBM are the big guns pushing open source and free software stacks on top of services and hardware sales. Microsoft is a cost-added solution to competitors like HP and Dell. Conclusion: Microsoft gets squeezed out like a pickle on a cheeseburger leaving Linux and Solaris completely dominating the server market.

  10. Is it just me, or.. by flamesrock · · Score: 0

    Is anyone else getting weary of Sun's "commitment to open source."

  11. No Cost? by Dr.+Photo · · Score: 1

    There's no cost like opportunity cost... :-)

  12. Free yes, but open source... by PierceLabs · · Score: 1

    They are certainly creating no cost alternatives, but I'm not sure if you can in good faith call them "open" alternatives.

  13. Cool by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Now they just need to make their hardware available for free...

  14. Re:Free! Java Studio ($1,895 value)! by aliquis · · Score: 1

    I haven't used them but I think it's:

    Java (Solaris) Enterprise System, some sort of server stuff I have no idea about ;)

    Sun studio, C/C++/Fortan IDE and compilers.

    Bwah, can't figure out where I found it earlier, something like (might be the otehr way round):
    Java Studio Creator, JAVA IDE
    Java Studio Enterprise, JSP

    Crap, this wasn't useful at all =P, anyway, together they all cover c/c++/fotran (with compilers), java and web development.