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Indiana Data Theft Compromises 700,000

Posted by timothy on from the can't-the-thieves-just-trade-among-themselves dept.

palewook writes "A Midwest collection company, Central Collection Bureau, admits a server and eight PCs stolen contain over 700,000 individuals' personal data. Central Collection Bureau acts as a collection contractor for doctors and utility companies. The Indiana based company admits the stolen info consists of addresses, social security numbers, and medical codes."

52 comments

  1. Well this is a well timed article by Durrok · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I happen to work in Indiana in IT for a retail store and my boss and I were just discussing how to avoid a "CNN event" just like this. Hopefully this article will be the tipping edge for the upper management to give us the time and resources to be able to properly secure our network... but somehow I doubt it.

    --
    I keep telling myself I'm not the desperate type.
    1. Re:Well this is a well timed article by base3 · · Score: 2, Informative

      The "good news" is that these "CNN events" are pretty common, and people aren't so fazed by them any more. And the public's attention span is woefully short, so the damage won't last more than a couple of weeks from a PR standpoint. Now if there are contract penalties for a breach, that's a different story altogether.

      --
      One CPU cycle wasted on digital restrictions management is ONE TOO MANY.
    2. Re:Well this is a well timed article by borg007 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Wow. Here in Maine 4.2 million (yes million!) credit/debit cards were compromised by Hannaford Brothers, a grocery store chain. The company knew about for months, but never told their customers. Here's the latest news: http://pressherald.mainetoday.com/story.php?id=183060&ac=PHnws

    3. Re:Well this is a well timed article by Ironsides · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Have HR tell tell you what the fines are for a HIPAA violation. Then have them tell you what is covered under HIPAA. I'm pretty sure at least some of your computers contain HIPAA protected information. Then arrange a presentation with Upper Management.

      --
      Fly me to the moon Let me sing among those stars Let me see what spring is like On jupiter and mars
    4. Re:Well this is a well timed article by Durrok · · Score: 1

      That is very good advice, thank you. Credit card numbers, customers purchase records, addresses, telephone #, etc is all stored on our servers or registers in one way or another and I'm sure part (if not all) falls under some part of HIPPA. Thankfully we have moved to an entirely encrypted system already so that narrows down some of our risk... but this was not always the case. It amazes me how a company/programmer/management can think that storing someone's private information in a plain text file is an acceptable practice.

      --
      I keep telling myself I'm not the desperate type.
    5. Re:Well this is a well timed article by BlitzSonik · · Score: 1

      I happen to work in Indiana in IT for a retail store and my boss and I were just discussing how to avoid a "CNN event" just like this. Hopefully this article will be the tipping edge for the upper management to give us the time and resources to be able to properly secure our network... but somehow I doubt it. They don't care, believe me...I know! -Blitz
    6. Re:Well this is a well timed article by macdaddy · · Score: 1

      HIPAA doesn't apply to the GP. He's a retail store and there's no reason for them to have any medical-related data which is all the HIPAA covers.

    7. Re:Well this is a well timed article by Skapare · · Score: 2, Funny

      Take a CNN story like this, edit it to show your company as the culprit including how sales dropped dramatically, set it up on a web server somewhere, fabricate a CNN-spoofing URL to access it, and use an anonymous web email account to send it to those upper level managers along with a comment saying "do you want to avoid a situation like this?".

      --
      now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
    8. Re:Well this is a well timed article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      HIPAA only applies to "covered entities." As a retailer (of what, I don't know), I find it unlikely that they are considered a covered entity. Not just anybody has an obligation to protect your medical information -- only covered entities do. If you were unwise enough to send me your medical records and I posted them on a public web site, I'd be in the clear.

      In fact, in my line of work, I see all kinds of HIPAA protected information. The people who send it to me are in direct violation (and I tell them so). But I'm not obligated to protect the information in any way at all. I do so only out of goodness.

  2. State-wide data theft by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Is it just me, or is it every week that some state has over 500k identities compromised? We may as well have a ticker that says which state this week and how many. We really need to find alternatives, otherwise by the end of the year, over half of the USA will have their identities somewhere underground...

    1. Re:State-wide data theft by bazald · · Score: 1

      Agreed. This is so common, and so problematic, that you might expect a law to be passed making it illegal to have more than (let's say) 4 identities' information including social security numbers on a storage device without (at least) trivial encryption measures in place. This really shouldn't be so hard for people.

      --
      Insert self-referential sig here.
    2. Re:State-wide data theft by pclminion · · Score: 2, Interesting

      That would be awesome. Finally everybody would be forced to abandon the SSN as a unique ID and move to a system that isn't completely fucked.

    3. Re:State-wide data theft by WaltBusterkeys · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Economists would call this a a classic "externalities" problem. It costs a company next to nothing to store vast amounts of data about you, but they don't pay the cost when your data gets spread around.

      Right now, there's no reason why a company (or a state government) wouldn't keep as much data about you as it can. Hard drive space is all but free (especially relative to these types of transactional data) and big database engines can rapidly sort through the data when it's needed.

      But, the problem is that you personally pay the price when a thief takes off with your name, address, social security number, mother maiden's name, etc. You are the one who has to go and call your credit card companies and pay people to remove your name from databases to clean up the mess.

      I'm no fan of government regulation generally, but this seems to be the sort of problem that there's no easy market solution for. I'm quite sure that companies (and governments) would be a lot more careful with personal data if they had to personally call each victim's credit card companies and personally investigate every claim of identity theft. We probably don't need to go that far, but it makes the point.

    4. Re:State-wide data theft by Culture20 · · Score: 1

      It wasn't state government this time, just a collections agency.

  3. That's what they get for outsourcing . . . by base3 · · Score: 4, Funny

    . . . to India...na . . . oh, wait.

    --
    One CPU cycle wasted on digital restrictions management is ONE TOO MANY.
    1. Re:That's what they get for outsourcing . . . by hullabalucination · · Score: 1

      I have no problem with it. I speak Hoosierati fluently.

  4. Business should assume that SSN is public by PIPBoy3000 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    At this point, it seems like just about everyone's SSN is out there in the public domain in one form or another. What pains me is that SSN is still used like a password for many institutions. Banks will ask for SSN, birthdate, and mother's maiden name. Unfortunately all of those things can be found out with a bit of digging.

    The more these breaches happen, the more apparent it is that we need a better "proof of identity" mechanism. I'm not advocating for the government to pass out universal ID cards to everyone. I think I'd rather see something along the lines of SSL certificates, where business can issue identification to people and later use that number and passphrase to do business with them. Perhaps a handful of business certificates become the "gold standard" and and are accepted by other businesses as a valid identifier.

    1. Re:Business should assume that SSN is public by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The more these breaches happen, the more apparent it is that we need a better "proof of identity" mechanism.
      Yeah, let's all get our REAL ID's! That's a great idea!
    2. Re:Business should assume that SSN is public by menace3society · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I disagree, the solution is to do away with the concept of any sort of proof-of-identity mechanism. Whatever you come up with, people will always be able to forge it or fake it or commit fraud with. Banks and things like the current situation with the SSN because it gives them someone to go after in the short-term. In the long-term, of course, they have to give you back the money they took, but to do that requires the victim of fraud/identity theft to jump through quite a few bureaucratic hoops to prove they were a victim. In the meantime, the financial institution can get help from the FBI, the Secret Service, and usually the IRS to go after whoever it was that really did it. You get your money back, sans interest earned on it and less legal expenses, fees, and the time you put in. They also don't fix your credit for you, and you can bet you'll still be answering questions to the IRS about it for months, if not years.

      Banks could do a lot more to prevent fraud before it happens without having a social security number, but they don't bother because they know either way they end up ahead. Putting them, and not the consumer, on the hook when they get duped by scammers will go a long way towards shoring up bank security and personal information privacy.

    3. Re:Business should assume that SSN is public by g0bshiTe · · Score: 1

      At this point, it seems like just about everyone's SSN is out there in the public domain in one form or another. What pains me is that SSN is still used like a password for many institutions. Banks will ask for SSN, birthdate, and mother's maiden name. Unfortunately all of those things can be found out with a bit of digging.


      Amazing for a card with the words, Not to be used for identification purposes on the back of it huh?
      --
      I am Bennett Haselton! I am Bennett Haselton!
    4. Re:Business should assume that SSN is public by Cyberax · · Score: 1

      ID cards are fine for identification.

      But you also need means for authentication. Signatures are not good, they can be easily forged.

      However, there are low-tech measures, like personal seals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inkan) which are almost impossible to forge.

      Personal SSL certificates? Or even better, a small personal device like eToken? Maybe.

      Personally, I like low-tech more (maybe because I'm a programmer :) ).

    5. Re:Business should assume that SSN is public by sjames · · Score: 1

      EXACTLY!

      For every fraudulant charge by an identity thief there is a bank that willingly handed out money to someone without actually knowing who they were.

      Every time they hassle the victim of identity theft for the cash, they are shaking down an uninvolved 3rd party. Since they know very well they don't have any real proof of ID, from an ethical point of view, they might as well just shake down random pedestrians outside their office.

      Ban that practice and you can bet they'll stop handing out credit cards to toddlers, dogs, cats, and goldfish.

      I don't blame the merchants because they are following the guidelines provided by the bank.

      In some cases those guidelines and procedures increase the risks substantially, such as requiring the original CC number to do a chargeback or to inquire about a transaction rather than a unique transaction number. For that matter, if they were really interested in limiting the damage, they would willingly issue special account numbers for recurring charges good only for that purpose. There's no reason a merchant should even need to store the CC number except perhaps the banks prefer it to be stored far and wide for plausible deniability reasons.

    6. Re:Business should assume that SSN is public by What+Would+NPH+Do · · Score: 1

      However, there are low-tech measures, like personal seals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inkan) which are almost impossible to forge. How would they be in the least bit impossible to forge? You just get a copy of something that the person has sealed. Use that as a basis to build a seal yourself and bam you're forging their identity. Your notion of it being impossible to forge might have been correct hundreds of years ago, but I very much doubt it would hold up against any modern forger. BTW from the wiki article:

      The increasing ease with which modern technology allows hanko fraud is beginning to cause some concern that the present system will not be able to survive.
    7. Re:Business should assume that SSN is public by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Seals are hardly better for security. From the Wikipedia article:
      The increasing ease with which modern technology allows hanko fraud is beginning to cause some concern that the present system will not be able to survive.

    8. Re:Business should assume that SSN is public by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What next? "Almost impossible to forge"... nametags? I really hope your thing about the seals is a joke and not you actually being serious. What exactly is supposed to be hard about carving a symbol into a piece of wood or bamboo? Modern day forgers can break all sorts of modern day solutions and you think they are going to be stopped by something whittled on a stick?

    9. Re:Business should assume that SSN is public by Cyberax · · Score: 1

      It's impossible to make a perfect copy of a seal, which can't be distinguished using a microscope. The pattern of micro-features of a seal is unique (assuming that it's a wood or plastic seal, it's not true for metallic seals).

      Besides, detecting a fake seal is fairly easy, it's almost exactly like matching a bullet to a gun using micro-grooves on bullets.

      Signature expertise, on the other hand, is a highly subjective process.

    10. Re:Business should assume that SSN is public by What+Would+NPH+Do · · Score: 1

      It's impossible to make a perfect copy of a seal, which can't be distinguished using a microscope. The pattern of micro-features of a seal is unique (assuming that it's a wood or plastic seal, it's not true for metallic seals). And how many times do you expect someone's seal imprint is actually looked at under a microscope? Never?

      Besides, detecting a fake seal is fairly easy, it's almost exactly like matching a bullet to a gun using micro-grooves on bullets. Did you even bother to read the wiki article that you linked?

      The increasing ease with which modern technology allows hanko fraud is beginning to cause some concern that the present system will not be able to survive. Apparently it's not that easy to detect in day to day transactions if the amount of fraud with respect to seals is becoming easier and easier to carry out.
      You can talk all you want how it's detectable under a microscope, but do you honestly think that anyone does that on a regular basis? You can also tell the difference between counterfeit and real money under a microscope, but that doesn't stop people from passing counterfeits into the money supply all the time. Your solution is about as crappy as having people write their name on an index card and using that as a basis of ID verification.
    11. Re:Business should assume that SSN is public by Cyberax · · Score: 1

      And how many times do you expect someone's seal imprint is actually looked at under a microscope? Never? For example, when you appeal a $100000 mortgage.

      Did you even bother to read the wiki article that you linked? My brother works at a criminal lab :)

      Your solution is about as crappy as having people write their name on an index card and using that as a basis of ID verification. No. I don't really care about $100-$200 frauds (which form the bulk of frauds). Merchants will just absorb the cost like they do with credit card frauds.

      However, if someones takes a mortgage using a fake seal I want a reliable way to appeal it. Seals provide such a way, signatures do not.
    12. Re:Business should assume that SSN is public by What+Would+NPH+Do · · Score: 1

      For example, when you appeal a $100000 mortgage. Do you have any actual evidence that they do this? I've read stories of people scamming hundreds of thousands of dollars when using fake hankos.

      My brother works at a criminal lab :) So that's a no that you didn't even read the article you linked? You sqawked on and on about how the fraud was easy to spot but the article you linked was saying that it was getting easier and easier to commit hanko fraud with modern technology. Did you perhaps fail at reading comprehension?

      No. I don't really care about $100-$200 frauds (which form the bulk of frauds). Merchants will just absorb the cost like they do with credit card frauds.

      So basically you admit that your system will have little impact when it comes to the vast majority of fraud. So then what was the point of the seal system again?

      However, if someones takes a mortgage using a fake seal I want a reliable way to appeal it. Seals provide such a way, signatures do not. You can do this right now without needing to use a seal.
    13. Re:Business should assume that SSN is public by What+Would+NPH+Do · · Score: 1

      For example, when you appeal a $100000 mortgage. So if someone is able to get a $100,000 mortage using a forged version of your seal doesn't that sort of tell you that your system of seals has already failed?

      I previously misread the post that's why I made this follow up.
    14. Re:Business should assume that SSN is public by Cyberax · · Score: 1

      Do you have any actual evidence that they do this? I've read stories of people scamming hundreds of thousands of dollars when using fake hankos. Yes, I live in Russia and I'm the owner of a small company. Each company in Russia must have the company seal (with imprints registered in a state registry), this is a strong anti-fraud measure. I personally know about several causes of appealed fraudulent deals.

      You can certainly scam hundreds thousands of dollars using fake seals, I don't doubt it. However, the victim of identity theft at least won't have to absorb the damage.

      So that's a no that you didn't even read the article you linked? You sqawked on and on about how the fraud was easy to spot but the article you linked was saying that it was getting easier and easier to commit hanko fraud with modern technology. Did you perhaps fail at reading comprehension? Yes, I've read it. I fail to see how it contradicts me.

      It has also become easier to create counterfeit money, you just print them on a laser printer! Does it spell the end of paper money? I don't think so.
    15. Re:Business should assume that SSN is public by Cyberax · · Score: 1

      So if someone is able to get a $100,000 mortage using a forged version of your seal doesn't that sort of tell you that your system of seals has already failed? No. The system fails if you don't have means to prove that the mortgage was a result of an identity theft (I remember I've read about several such horror stories in the news).
    16. Re:Business should assume that SSN is public by What+Would+NPH+Do · · Score: 1

      Yes, I live in Russia and I'm the owner of a small company. Each company in Russia must have the company seal (with imprints registered in a state registry), this is a strong anti-fraud measure. I personally know about several causes of appealed fraudulent deals. So if you can point to several cases of fradulent deals being carried out using forged seals, it sort of shows that this system of seals is already broken.

      You can certainly scam hundreds thousands of dollars using fake seals, I don't doubt it. However, the victim of identity theft at least won't have to absorb the damage. You wouldn't have to know once the identity theft is uncovered.

      Yes, I've read it. I fail to see how it contradicts me. You don't see how it saying that it's increasingly easy to using forged seals contradicts your statement:

      Besides, detecting a fake seal is fairly easy If it was as easy as you claim, it wouldn't be getting easier and easier to commit fraud using forged seals as the article talks about.

      It has also become easier to create counterfeit money, you just print them on a laser printer! Does it spell the end of paper money? I don't think so. No, but it would fly in the face of someone proclaiming how easy it is to spot counterfeits when billions and billions in fake currency floats around at any one time.
    17. Re:Business should assume that SSN is public by What+Would+NPH+Do · · Score: 1

      No. The system fails if you don't have means to prove that the mortgage was a result of an identity theft (I remember I've read about several such horror stories in the news). So let me get this straight. You propose a system to prevent fraud that in the end you admit doesn't prevent fraud. So what's the point of the system again?
    18. Re:Business should assume that SSN is public by Cyberax · · Score: 1

      To serve as a cheap and easy-to-use _failsafe_.

    19. Re:Business should assume that SSN is public by Cyberax · · Score: 1

      So if you can point to several cases of fradulent deals being carried out using forged seals, it sort of shows that this system of seals is already broken. Any system is either "broken" or impossible to use.

      You wouldn't have to know once the identity theft is uncovered. How? You have no way to protest the deal. I've read about people losing hundreds thousands dollars on lawsuits to protest the fraudulent loans.

      No, but it would fly in the face of someone proclaiming how easy it is to spot counterfeits when billions and billions in fake currency floats around at any one time. No, that just means it's that protection measures of paper currency are adequate for the current situation.

      I don't want 100% secure system which is also unusable and/or expensive.
    20. Re:Business should assume that SSN is public by jambarama · · Score: 1

      We just need to hold businesses to be liable for actual damage probably caused by their data leak. If your SSN & other personally identifiable information was leaked by X Corporation, they should have to cover the expenses you incur when you're defrauded by the data thief. Pass a law like that and you'll see firms thinking really hard, not just about *how* to secure that data, but about *what* data they really need to be keeping.

      Of course you'd have to put some kind of cap on damages (but it should scale with the revenue of the company), so every breach isn't fatal to every company, but when government contractors get off from a breach like this by (at most) sending a note to the affected, paying for a credit report or two, and getting a little bad publicity - you know something's messed up.

    21. Re:Business should assume that SSN is public by jambarama · · Score: 1

      Even easier - we should just be able to get a new SSN. Whenever a data breach occurs, you should be able to file a form with the federal government, showing your information was leaked, and get a new SSN. Better yet, any time personal information is leaked, the leaking entity must offer the victims to file with the government for new SSNs.

      This identifier from cradle to grave is for the birds. It is the same for biometric stuff - once it is leaked a single time, the cat is out of the bag and you can't rely on it. However, unlike thumbprints, there is no good reason identity theft victims should have to worry about their credit & identity being stolen years after the data breach.

  5. What authorities are saying by Alzheimers · · Score: 3

    According to anonymous officials, they're calling this heist even more daring than the time he stole the Ark of the Covenant away from the Nazis.

  6. 100k's compromised? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    The data on hundreds of thousands of people compromised by a stolen laptop somewhere? It must be Tuesday.

  7. Who'd steal identities from a collection agency? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Seriously, why bother? Their credit is already trashed...

  8. How does a server get stolen? by RingDev · · Score: 1

    Even the non-technical companies I've worked for had enough sense to keep the servers in a locked closet.

    Oh wait, this is yet another completely wrong summary...

    -Rick

    --
    "Most people in the U.S. wouldn't know they live in a tyrannical state if it walked up and grabbed their junk." - MyFirs
  9. Bunkum by FranTaylor · · Score: 1

    Your "solution" does nothing to solve the problem.

    - The "trust" you place in a digital certificate is misguided and fictional. Trust is a chain, and business cannot be "trusted" any more than the least scrupulous of their employees. If you organize data like this, it will just make it easier to steal. SSL certificates are okay for encrypting data, but next to useless for identity management.

    - If all were implemented as you say, this computer theft would have taken the private keys as well, rendering the certificates worse than useless.

    - SSN is not the only piece of sensitive information, and is not the only piece of data that identity thieves are looking for.

    1. Re:Bunkum by pclminion · · Score: 1

      The "trust" you place in a digital certificate is misguided and fictional. Trust is a chain, and business cannot be "trusted" any more than the least scrupulous of their employees. If you organize data like this, it will just make it easier to steal. SSL certificates are okay for encrypting data, but next to useless for identity management.

      What are you smoking? This isn't about trust, it's about a way for the business to positively identify you as a specific customer. I don't have to trust the business, and they don't have to trust me. The goal is for them to know I am without using a single identification number everywhere.

      If all were implemented as you say, this computer theft would have taken the private keys as well, rendering the certificates worse than useless.

      If the private keys are stolen, the company will destroy their master keys and declare that all certs are revoked. Then they'll just start issuing new ones. This is inconvenient, but not as inconvenient as having your SSN stolen, since you can't change it.

  10. Yea, ok. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Our server was password protected," Klene said. "We have obviously spoken to some IT people who feel that a good computer hacker could get through those passwords."

    Ok, all of us here at /. know how this is done, right? You too can boot to single mode.

    Glad to know we're all uber-hackers now.

  11. Next, on World's Dumbest Criminals.... by Seraphim_72 · · Score: 4, Funny

    I mean they stole the data of 700,000 people that were on the roles at a Debt Collection company. I mean, these are people that can't pay their bills and have bad credit. How stupid is it to steal that data. "Uh...my SSN is...er...123-45-6789" "I am sorry sir, with your credit score we can't issue you a card." Sure it is still a bad thing for those people to have their info exposed, but sheesh what is next - "Thieves get data of soup kitchen patrons, bankrupt Campbells."? My suspicion is that they are too dumb to know what they have stolen. "Should we bring this flat one? It ain't got no screen or keyboard?" "Sure, I bet its a dvd player, grab it."

    --
    Slashdot, where armchair scientists get shouted down and armchair theologians get modded up.
    1. Re:Next, on World's Dumbest Criminals.... by c_oflynn · · Score: 1

      "The collection company was hired by hundreds of doctors and some utility companies to collect on delinquent bills. Every name is a customer or a patient."

      Please note: you may want to steal the SS number of a doctor, I think their credit score is a bit better.

    2. Re:Next, on World's Dumbest Criminals.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Then I guess you'd be suprised how many people with above-average or better credit have collection accounts on their credit reports.

      Health care providers are notorious for making almost no effort whatsoever to track down old patients that they forgot to bill for some random lab work. It's far easier (or in some cases more profitable) for them to just call it a loss, take the tax write-off, and sell the debt to a collection agency for pennies on the dollar.

      It's to the point where most creditors simply ignore healthcare-related collection accounts in many cases. For example, my wife has such an account on her report (albeit, for a relatively small amount of money), and every single mortgage lender we talked to when buying our first home said they would not factor it into their decision since it was a healthcare-related account.

    3. Re:Next, on World's Dumbest Criminals.... by sjames · · Score: 1

      Of course, with all of the "opportunities" for bad credit and no credit, this may actually be perfect! It's harder to get the account, but once they do, nobody will go looking for an identity theft given the victim's history.

      The entire debt collections industry is already strongly biased towards assUmeing that any debt they buy is legitimate and the associated info like phone number and address are accurate even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. I say that as someone who has answered many phone calls fron collection agents looking for someone I don't know.

      My big question is will the collection agency accept their liability and pay up promptly or will the victims have to get the courts and a collection agency involved?

  12. Indiana? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The data "thief" was heard shouting, as he rode away, "It belongs in a museum!"

  13. Not all have bad credit.... by realsilly · · Score: 1

    Not everyone on a list has bad credit. You need to remember that in some cases outstanding medical debt does not negatively impact credit scores.

    It's just that hospitals also use credit agencies to help recoup monies that people are neglecting to pay, and not always for the reasons of bad credit.

    So there is a good chance that a lot of those people will have great credit.

    These Criminals may not be as stupid as many of you seem to think.

    --
    Life takes interesting turns, but the most interest is when you're off the beaten path.
  14. Re: by clint999 · · Score: 0

    I mean they stole the data of 700,000 people that were on the roles at a Debt Collection company. I mean, these are people that can't pay their bills and have bad credit. How stupid is it to steal that data. "Uh...my SSN is...er...123-45-6789" "I am sorry sir, with your credit score we can't issue you a card." Sure it is still a bad thing for those people to have their info exposed, but sheesh what is next - "Thieves get data of soup kitchen patrons, bankrupt Campbells."? My suspicion is that they are too dumb to know what they have stolen. "Should we bring this flat one? It ain't got no screen or keyboard?" "Sure, I bet its a dvd player, grab it."

    --
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