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eBay Beats Tiffany In Net Trademark Case
sm62704 notes a Reuters story reporting that eBay has beat Tiffany in court in a "knockout" decision. If this had gone the other way, not only would eBay be in trouble (especially after the loss of a similar case in France), but so would Net commerce as a whole. Tiffany seems certain to appeal. "All of Tiffany's trademark infringement claims against eBay were rejected — a knockout blow to the four-year-old lawsuit that had been closely watched by Internet companies as well as luxury goods makers seeking to stop the sale of counterfeit products online. Tiffany & Co. had alleged that eBay turned a blind eye to the sale of fake Tiffany silver jewelry on its site. EBay had countered that it was not in a position to determine which goods were knock-offs... and had said the jeweler did not adequately participate in eBay's programs that help brand owners prevent fraud. The judge... said he was 'not unsympathetic' to Tiffany and others who have invested in building their brands only to see them exploited on the Web. But he said the law was clearly on eBay's side."
Does anyone know if Tiffany and Co. has sued any "brick and mortar" auction houses for this same type of thing? I suspect that there are any number of antique shops that routinely, perhaps unwittingly, sell fake Tiffany pieces.
Other than this text, there is no discernible information contained in this sig.
Wow, with this ruling we can setup the original Napster again.
Oh just leave the gal alone. So she made some stupid pop hits in the 80s and then tried to revive her career by posing for Playboy. That's still no reason for eBay's attack.
I have a fake Exlax watch I want to sell! I could get thousands of dollars for it! It such a good fake, you'd never know it wasn't a real Exlax!
If you'd like to read the actual decision. (PDF)
Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful
There are brick and mortar equivalents to your eBay Tiffany vendor -- everything from tables in Chinatown to flea markets.
Does Tiffany's actively go after the flea market owners/managers who happen to have a vendor renting a flea market stand and selling fugazi jewelry?
Support a few technologists in Washington.
People in the antique business usually know when they're holding an actual piece of Tiffany silver work in their hands.
That's the big difference right there. EBay never holds the item so there really is no way they can reasonably tell if an item is a fake. The only real way is to actually inspect the item AND have a paper trail to help authenticate its origin. That's what they do in the art world for valuable paintings. EBay is looking for plausible deniability when they know damn good and well they aren't doing the one thing that actually can ensure authenticity reliably.
I understand that anyone gets what they deserve... And idiots thinking a 50$ necklace is a true Tiffany probably deserve to be scammed... But there are plenty of bargain hunters that despite having plenty of sense get stiffed... Some accountability on ebay side would be nice...
It's interesting how ebay polices most auctions that they have an issue with, but then turn a blind eye to select auctions. I say all or nothing.....
Whatever the law states here, it's a sad day when eBay wins something.
Knowing eBay, and how much contempt they have for law, justice, and fairness, this win has to indicate that there is a deeper problem with the legal system.
I said 'What about eBaying Tiffany?'
And she said 'I think I've sold some before
And as I recall, I think we both made a profit'
So I said 'Well, that's one court case we've won.'
Laughter is the Spackle of the Soul.
We usually get so much inaccurate legal speculation, that it's a good thing to have original sources like that to link to.
To that I'd like to add that there is a type of fair use specific to trademarks and relevant to this case--nominative fair use. I mentioned that in my submission, but I guess this guy beat me to submitting it.
I'm mentioning it because, otherwise, we'll probably have someone trying to apply the four factor test from copyright law to trademarks once the issue comes up... :-)
- I Don't Believe in Imaginary Property
Apart from the oblig. French jokes, does anyone know if the respective laws in France and the US regarding this matter are different enough to warrant the difference in verdicts, the interpretations of the judges are different, or the two cases are simply not that similar?
And it's particularly ironic since her biggest hit, "I think we're alone now" was a cheap knockoff of the original by Tommy James & the Shondells.
Cheap knockoffs of copyrighted songs are allowed, nay, encouraged by the statutory license for cover versions in the United States and several other countries. Trademarks, on the other hand, don't have anything analogous that I can think of.
Yeah but they don't mind sending the production process over to a country that
a) exploits *their* workers b) doesn't care about copyrightc) is prepared to make counterfeit goods from idle production time and undercut the company that outsourced the production process in the first place
Looks like those communist Chinese are learning how to be quite effective capitalists, what did Tiffany *expect* to happen. Except they don't go back to where and how the goods were produced noooooooo they go and sue a third party clogging up the legal system - what a mockery of the legal process. At least the judge used a foam club over the four year period.
My ism, it's full of beliefs.
I recently had an issue with items purchased on ebay that were never delivered. Period. I was able to get all my money back from paypal, so that was a good thing, but don't for a minute think that ebay has any kind of control on the amount of fraud in its offerings.
I especially like the part where, if you're going to leave negative feedback (oooo, NEGATIVE FEEDBACK. That must be atomic!), it should not include personal attacks. You know, something like 'Hey this guy is a fucking fraud. Don't buy from him'.
Ebay just hopes you don't notice for long enough that the police state will devise some type of solution. Until then the creeps will just open up shop under another user name.
I still use ebay, but I have a new respect for the New York camera dealers of yore who I never met, whose English I could never understand, to whom I mailed thousands of dollars and by whom I was never cheated. Never even once.
It's funny that eBay will defend the sale of bootleg products but has caved into the Scientologists on the sale of e-meters and authorized copies of church literature. Obviously the difference here is that the volume of bootleg stuff far outweighs the amount of CoS materials available for sale. The fake stuff is too much of a profit source for eBay to walk away from. The good news is that eBay obviously won't mind if you put a bootleg e-meter up for sale.
I am becoming gerund, destroyer of verbs.
Well I hope the plaintiffs will be ordered to cook eBay a hearty breakfast too.
"Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
I don't know. I'm kind of tired of doing a search for designer suits and finding page after page of obvious Chinese-made ripoffs. And to make matters worse, eBay makes you jump through hoops to report fakes - the "report" link goes to a FAQ page instead of a real report link. I actually wrote to eBay about this sub-optimal behavior, and they wrote back that they were under no obligation to listen to my suggestions.
Having bought a necklace for my wife (yes, really - a wife), we returned home and waited for the certificate of authenticity that they promised.
Two phone calls and two letters later - nothing.
Tiffany UK don't want to know as the purchase was made in Las Vegas.
As much as she (hopefully) won't sell them, making a big-ticket purchase should ensure you get top quality customer service.
Next time I'll buy from eBay and pocket the change!
In the meantime eBay has created a hole for a real on-line auction system. It would be quite difficult to set up, require heavy means of seller verification, but provide a way to sell high value items securely.
Not that I am defending the "luxury goods manufacturers" who themselves are now fake. "Burberry", for instance, is just another Chinese knock off shop, while Barbour and Mulberry in the UK are real local manufacturers. Burberry has destroyed some of the value in the real manufacturers by its faking. It's Gresham's Law in action. There really should be a law that all vendors must state clearly in any advertisement what the main country of manufacture of their goods actually is.
From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
If this had gone the other way, not only would eBay be in trouble (especially after the loss of a similar case in France), but so would Net commerce as a whole.
How would Net commerce as a whole be in trouble if the ruling went against eBay?
Go get her, eBay!
(and I hear Samantha Fox is pretty unhappy with eBay too)
-- http://frobnosticate.com
The judge here should be applauded. While he understood where Tiffany was coming from, he correctly chose NOT to legislate from the bench by siding with them.
where knockoffs and fakes run their little corner of the universe, and the law could care less about all those being fucked out of their money.
I have to wonder if any judge that makes rulings like this either has head up ass or worse, has a hand in the fraud.
Oh well, I never buy anything off ebay and refuse to sell on it.