Slashdot Mirror


Credit Card Security Standard Issued

alphadogg writes "The Payment Card Industry Security Standards Council, the organization that sets technical requirements for processing credit- and debit-cards, Wednesday issued revised security rules, while also indicating next year it will focus on new guidelines for end-to-end encryption, payment machines and virtualization. PCI adherence has been pushed big time in the industry to help avoid more big breaches such as the one involving TJX. Those familiar with the standard say it could be expensive to implement and that there are some things those using wireless LANs will need to pay especially close attention to."

98 comments

  1. PCI standards and real life by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I don't know how many reading this have been through the whole PCI thing. Personally, I think that it is pushed by folks that are selling 'scanners' and other remediation software.

    I believe that security standards are a good thing. I appreciate that PCI has helped many environments be more secure. However...

    I have worked in 3 unix shops that were devoted to E-Commerce. Currently, I'm really impressed with the company that I work for and how they do things. Unfortunately, I have seen things that most Unix admins/Security admins would have nightmares about in some other places that I have consulted. Yet, no matter what security flaws are there, they always passed.

    I shudder when I think of one company that I worked with. They are a very high level financial institution. Guess what their AIX HMC passwords are? Can you get to them from the outside world? Yep. Could I down their production servers, a year after I worked there? Yep. Are they considered compliant to DSS/PCI standards? Yep.

    1. Re:PCI standards and real life by Dice · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Exactly.

      I haven't worked with PCI specifically (although it's looking like I will soon) but I've seen the same sort of BS when working with telecom companies. They plop down a gargantuan checklist which is clearly the umpteenth managerial iteration over something that may have once been written by someone who knew what they were doing. Following the checklist does not mean that you are secure, but it is possible to be secure and also manage to check all of the boxes they want.

    2. Re:PCI standards and real life by gmack · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That's because PCI-DSS covers weak passwords but doesn't really test for them.

      PCI is more about documentation and network layout than anything else. When my company did my audit they demanded segregated backend/ front end networks, SNORT machines on both and then followed up with a "pennetration test" that checked for common web server exploits and misconfiguration and the security scan actually encouraged us to hide all of the version numbers.

      The upshot of all of this is that some of the things I had to do made things more secure but most of them were things that would look good on paper. I can still do things like not change passwords when people leave or put them on a paper I keep on a bulletin board and still keep my cert.

    3. Re:PCI standards and real life by hugetoon · · Score: 5, Insightful
      PCI standart adresses only the environment where card numbers are stored and processed. You can reduce this perimeter with appripriate segmentation.

      I shudder when I think of one company that I worked with. They are a very high level financial institution. Guess what their AIX HMC passwords are? Can you get to them from the outside world? Yep. Could I down their production servers, a year after I worked there? Yep. Are they considered compliant to DSS/PCI standards? Yep.

      I suppose AIX servers were in PCI environment (otherwise your comment is out of scope).
      Then the situation you describe probabely violates the following requirements:

      req. 2.1: "Don't use default passwords"
      req. 8.5.4 "Immediately revoke access for any terminated users."
      req. 8.5.5 "Remove/disable inactive user accounts at least every 90 days."
      req. 8.5.6 "Enable accounts used by vendors for remote maintenance only during the time period needed."
      req. 8.5.8 "Do not use group, shared, or generic accounts and passwords."
      req. 8.5.9 "Change user passwords at least every 90 days."
      req. 8.5.10 "Require a minimum password length of at least seven characters."

      About the fact that you can connect to servers from outside: that means no segmentation which in its turn means that the whole internet is to be considered as part of the PCI environment of this company.

      Now please tell me by WHOM are they considered compliant?
      Being financial institution means that they are provider (and may be merchant too) they certainly have to be audited by a QSA (self assessment questionnaire would not be sufficient) which could mean one of tho things:
      The QSA did not his job properly
      The company concealed things form the QSA

    4. Re:PCI standards and real life by davester666 · · Score: 1

      And yet, all the specs boil down to:

      Thou shalt apply ROT13 encryption to all credit card data.

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
    5. Re:PCI standards and real life by operator_error · · Score: 2, Interesting

      No kidding! Once I did PCI consulting for a firm that did nothing to support my quality work, trying to build a really secure, yet user-friendly and fully functional workgroup infrastructure (with Ubuntu workstation proto-types avail.). Please trust me when I say I Delivered on A Secure Plan with open-source Goods, and no budget. It didn't matter, because everyone really wanted their Windows & their iPods & Smartphones, and didn't see how I delivered, in meeting Requirements for the nature of my client's Transaction Processing Company.

      All I needed was support and actual authority from the management to do my job. So I went to the management and I said point blank, "What did you hire me for? To deliver on a secure, auditable, Network Security Monitoring (NSM) infrastructure, which seems like a good investment, and worthy of my fees; or did you just hire me to help you pass a test? I never received a Direct answer to my question, other than I could go on describing little details of how our business relationship ended.

    6. Re:PCI standards and real life by daem0n1x · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Well, financial institutions didn't care much about the safety of funds they have invested in, and that's their core business, why should they care about IT security?

      I guess they couldn't have screwed up worse than they did, even if they had "1234" for all root passwords on their data centers.

    7. Re:PCI standards and real life by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Parent here.

      How did they pass? Perhaps their documentation was gold plated lead. I don't know. I do know that nobody accessed our SERVERS to check the reports that the same SERVERS had made.

      Nice party a week later though. Beer and food.

    8. Re:PCI standards and real life by tha_mink · · Score: 1

      I do know that nobody accessed our SERVERS to check the reports that the same SERVERS had made.

      See that's another violation of the standard. Since your employer was a provider or merchant, they would have been required to have a QSA actually physically audit the network, which includes much more than just a network scan? Who was doing your compliance?

      --
      You'll have that sometimes...
    9. Re:PCI standards and real life by vvaduva · · Score: 1

      Whenever you mention PCI to executive management all they hear is dollars dropping out of their pockets, so generally speaking, unless the CIO or CTO has a security interest or somewhat of a background, there will be no administrative or financial support for PCI efforts. I've worked with only one organization so far (of many) who is amazingly disciplined to stick to PCI in detail, perform the required scans and be willing to shell out the dollars to ensure compliance. Ultimately, if there is no desire and willingness to do what's right, it will not happen just because a new standard is released.

    10. Re:PCI standards and real life by aztracker1 · · Score: 1

      Damn, need to change my root passwords now..

      --
      Michael J. Ryan - tracker1.info
    11. Re:PCI standards and real life by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not true. I work at a company who sells store level peripherals. This is difficult for us as well. Every time PCI changes their compliance rules, we have to figure out solutions for our customers which will work, which generally means rewriting software and programs. It is good for business but many times our customers can become PCI compliant again without necessarily purchasing new equipment. Security should always come first and as long as their are people willing to go to the ends of the earth to steal personal information, PCI must update and make defenses stronger. It really has nothing to do with the manufacturers.

    12. Re:PCI standards and real life by herring0 · · Score: 1

      Whew, I almost thought I might have to change the password on my luggage...close call.

    13. Re:PCI standards and real life by sjames · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The problem with PCI is that it's a great deal of expense and trouble attempting to overcome a fundamental weakness in the system: That the card number is used as identification and authentication and by itself is sufficient to process a charge.

      For the inevitable car analogy, it's like removing the door locks and replacing the ignition lock on a car with a simple toggle and pushbutton, then equipping the garage with a $10,000 state of the art security system and calling it good enough (completely ignoring that the car is parked in a public lot for 8 hours a day).

      The fact remains that from time to time, you will have to give your credit card to some person you don't know who will disappear into a back room with it for 5-10 minutes.

      If they would actually use the smart chips on the cards for more than security theater, the security (or lack thereof) of the processing system would be irrelevant.

    14. Re:PCI standards and real life by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Requirement 8.1: Identify all users with a unique user name before allowing them access to system components or cardholder data.
      Requirement 8.5.4: Immediately revoke access for any terminated users.
      Requirement 8.5.5: Remove inactive user accounts at least every 90 days
      Requirement 8.5.8: Do not use group, shared, or generic accounts and passwords
      Requirement 8.5.9: Change user passwords at least every 90 days

      So, this company may pass port scan tests and penetration tests, but they are NOT compliant because it sounds as if they are still using a generic shared root/administrator account that does not uniquely identify users. Its access was not revoked when you were terminated, it's password has not changed in the last 90 days, and it was not removed 90 days after you left.

    15. Re:PCI standards and real life by arglesnaf · · Score: 1

      Only because they lie to their assesors:

      8.5.8.a For a sample of system components, examine
      user ID lists to verify the following
        Generic user IDs and accounts are disabled or
      removed.
      Shared user IDs for system administration activities
      and other critical functions do not exist.
      Shared and generic user IDs are not used to
      administer any system components.

      8.5.8.b Examine password policies/procedures to
      verify that group and shared passwords are explicitly
      prohibited.

      8.5.8.c Interview system administrators to verify that
      group and shared passwords are not distributed, even if
      requested.

      8.5.9 For a sample of system components, obtain and
      inspect system configuration settings to verify that user
      password parameters are set to require users to change
      passwords at least every 90 days.

      https://www.pcisecuritystandards.org/security_standards/download.html?id=pci_dss_v1-2.pdf

      The standard really does a decent job of promoting best practices, but can be both over detailed and overly lenient at times.

    16. Re:PCI standards and real life by X0563511 · · Score: 1

      Could I down their production servers, a year after I worked there? Yep. Are they considered compliant to DSS/PCI standards? Yep.

      NO.

      Passwords MUST change every 90 days at minimum, with a whole lot of rules. If they don't do that, they are NOT compliant. End of Story.

      I work in the industry.

      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
    17. Re:PCI standards and real life by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Parent here.

      Oh yes, they did pass their audits. And yes, their HMC passwords are still the default.

      I agree with the spirit of your reply, they are not compliant. But they certainly are legally.

      Who did the audits? Folks that are getting paid better than most of us.

    18. Re:PCI standards and real life by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "I can still do things like not change passwords when people leave or put them on a paper I keep on a bulletin board and still keep my cert."

      Doing that means you are not fulfilling your ongoing duties with respect to PCI DSS, if a QSA picks up on this then you shouldn't get to keep your cert :P

    19. Re:PCI standards and real life by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's harder than you suggest to segment out PCI systems from non-PCI systems.
      "...stores, processes, or transmits card holder data."
      It sounds SO simple and obvious... just put THOSE systems on a different network with a firewall. HAH!

      The data that puts a system in scope, which even includes simple things like the card holder names flows end to end through multiple layers. This is not hard to imagine. There are web applications, IVR systems you use over the phone, middleware servers, databases, customer service tools used by call centers (God only knows where they are)

      About the fact that you can connect to servers from outside: that means no segmentation which in its turn means that the whole internet is to be considered as part of the PCI environment of this company.

      Huh, external connectivity means no segmentation??
      What does "store, process, or transmit card holder data" mean to you? How can you even check your account balance over the web without driving a whole stack of systems from edge to core into PCI scope?

      This is the problem with PCI-DSS, it's too fucking vague, and merges best practices from wildly different platforms into one guide. For example, install ALL vendor supplied security patches within 30 days... in a large Solaris environment??? Let me find some awesome examples with PCA..
      114818 XX X XX -S- 999 GNOME 2.0.0: libpng Patch
      113329 XX X XX RS- 69 SunOS 5.9: lp Patch
      112661 XX X XX RS- 128 SunOS 5.9: IIIM and X Input & Output Method patch
      113923 XX X XX RS- 232 X11 6.6.1: security font server patch
      117127 XX X XX -S- 436 SunOS 5.9: header Patch
      By not taking into consideration the severity of the underlying vulnerability, the PCI-DSS creates major headaches.

      Don't even get me started on what constitutes "storing" in regards to encryption requirements. JFC, is encrypted swap space on every GD server really necessary??? Depends on how you read (or misread) the DSS. Then you need sufficient key management to go with the encryption!

      Sorry for the language, you can tell these requirements (or the interpretations of them by people I work with) drive me insane.

    20. Re:PCI standards and real life by Tubal-Cain · · Score: 1

      Thou shalt apply ROT13 encryption to all credit card data.

      Twice.

    21. Re:PCI standards and real life by slashdotwannabe · · Score: 1

      1234 -> 12345. 25% more secure =)

      --
      This comment is my opinion and does not represent an official position of Donald Trump or others I do not work for
  2. But when will consumers see additional security? by Manip · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Consumers in the US in particular are hugely behind the curve as far as end to end security goes. A lot of Credit and Debit cards are still being issues without Chip & Pin. Yet worse for some mind boggling reason Credit Card companies have started installing RFID into these cards.

    In the EU, the UK in particular Chip & Pin is mandatory while RFID is nowhere to be found. Now I appeaciate that the US only recently moved away from Checks and still have a very questionable Direct Debit (bank to bank transfers) system in place but you would think one of the worlds leaders wouldn't be one of the worlds losers in terms of card security and fraud protection.

  3. Re:But when will consumers see additional security by TooMuchToDo · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I think you answered your own post. The EU is more up to speed because security has been regulated (fraud is the merchant's problem in the US, not the bank or processing network). Card issues care less about security and more about transaction volume.

    I can't explain why our banking system sucks though. I would've thought we'd be ahead of the curve when it comes to moving money electronically. *shurgs*

  4. Any advancement? by VincenzoRomano · · Score: 1
    Real advancement would be:

    * very very very hard way to physically clone a CC/DC;

    * very very very strong encryption in communication;

    * user-changeable authentication and authorisation, so it won't be enough to have just a copy of the data printed on the CC sides to make a purchase on internet.
    Anything else, will simply suck as far as "security".

    --
    Maybe Computers will never be as intelligent as Humans.
    For sure they won't ever become so stupid. [VR-1988]
    1. Re:Any advancement? by Nursie · · Score: 2, Informative

      *very very very hard way to physically clone a CC/DC;

      Done. Chip and Pin (or EMV as it should be known) makes it pretty impossible without an electron microscope.

      * very very very strong encryption in communication;

      Done. EMV cards use RSA to encrypt comms between themselves and the bank. Nobody else gets to read it. Online purchases are down to your e-tailer and their setup. Check your browser security bar.

      * user-changeable authentication and authorisation, so it won't be enough to have just a copy of the data printed on the CC sides to make a purchase on internet.

      You can easily change your PIN in a lot of places with EMV, and for online purchases there are now a lot of places using the "Verified by Visa" (or similar mastercard initiative) to take you through authentication directly with your card issuer, with a user-set password, before the transaction can take place.

      The main problem with ALL of this is back compatibility and legacy systems. The moment you introduce all this good stuff but then say "but if it's not available then fall back to unverified, unencrypted, magnetic processing" then you've introduced the capacity for major fraud again.

    2. Re:Any advancement? by skaet · · Score: 1

      * user-changeable authentication and authorisation, so it won't be enough to have just a copy of the data printed on the CC sides to make a purchase on internet.

      They already have this, at least we use it quite a bit in Australia. The Verified by Visa opt-in allows end-users to set an additional password to be used for online purchases. I know Skype uses it and some other popular vendors whose names elude me right now (I work in the Online Banking team for a bank, you'd think I'd know them). Visa also use a cardholder-selected question/phrase which appears on the purchase form so they know it's an official VbV password request.

      --
      There is no knowledge that is not power.
    3. Re:Any advancement? by VincenzoRomano · · Score: 1

      Cloning a chip+PIN doesn't seem to be a real challenge (try some of these pages), especially when you have modified POS equipment (like here).
      Maybe in the USA you have those authentication and authorisation features, but in Europe the CC PIN is seldom required, you cannot change it and when purchasing online is never asked.
      So, again, I would say that electronic payments need some real advancement both in technology and in architectures. In my opinion.

      --
      Maybe Computers will never be as intelligent as Humans.
      For sure they won't ever become so stupid. [VR-1988]
    4. Re:Any advancement? by Nursie · · Score: 1

      GSM/Sim cards and EMV credit cards are a different game. On the better (more modern) cards there is a cryptographic processor with its own set of private keys, that cannot be read off, that perform various authentication operations.

      I used to work in EMV and I know what you can do with custom programmable cards and card reader/writers. Unless you have the card private key you cannot clone them.

      "Maybe in the USA you have those authentication and authorisation features"

      I thought we were talking about why smart cards were good and how the USA should adopt them. Maybe in the USA YOU don't have those features! :)
      I'm British and in London. Everywhere takes EMV now and PIN is part of every transaction. You're right that online the "Verified by Visa" support is lacking from a lot of places.

      The technology is *mostly* there, but as I say - it's got gaping holes as long as somewhere in the world there is a merchant or bank that will take a card with a signature and magnetic strip. That and getting better roll-out of online protections.

    5. Re:Any advancement? by RMH101 · · Score: 1
      In the UK virtually all retailers insist on the PIN for all cards, and your PIN is readily changed at any ATM, even ATMs belonging to banks other than the card-issuing one.

      This is also the case in France, which had C&P years before us, and most other places I've been to in Europe.

      There have been some well-documented cases of C&P hardware hacking, usually by replacing the C&P unit with a hard-compromised one - Shell petrol stations suffered from this, for example, but newer terminals are more resistant to this.

    6. Re:Any advancement? by Ihlosi · · Score: 2, Interesting

      very very very hard way to physically clone a CC/DC

      Actually, at least in Europe, it's already pretty hard to clone a debit/ATM card well enough that a modern ATM will accept them.

      Did you notice the catch? "a modern ATM". That's why criminals only need to clone the magnetic strip (trivial) and get your PIN (also trivial), and then they send the data to their buddies in Eastern Europe to withdraw money using the not-so-modern ATMs used in these countries.

    7. Re:Any advancement? by Zironic · · Score: 1

      Could people stop talking about Europe as if it was one place.

      This is how it works in sweden:
      You either use the PIN or you use signature+ID, some merchants slack with the ID check but afaik IANAL that makes them liable.

      When making online purchases it works the same all over the world, you use your card number+CVC code, however my bank offers virtual master cards where you can specify the amount of money it should contain and for how long it should last so if you generate a card with $20 that lasts 1 month you couldn't care less if anyone steals those details.

    8. Re:Any advancement? by Nursie · · Score: 1

      "Could people stop talking about Europe as if it was one place."

      "When making online purchases it works the same all over the world"

      Head asplode with irony!

      Evidently not - a lot of places in the UK are now using Verified by Visa, a system that takes you off the vendor site to Visa (or your card issuer's) site to enter a password, so that they can authorise (or not) the transaction based on that.

    9. Re:Any advancement? by Svartalf · · Score: 1

      Chip and Pin as you're flogging is NOT secure as you're claiming...

      http://www.chipandspin.co.uk/ points out that one CAN be defeated, and disturbingly EASILY. Heck, the supposedly even more secure Passport RFID was breached recently and in a way that at least the bulk of the RFID readers for it can't detect the tampering.

      --
      I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
    10. Re:Any advancement? by Nursie · · Score: 1

      "points out that one CAN be defeated, and disturbingly EASILY."

      where?

      Show me the page. I can't find it. It says the same that I said - fallback to stripe is a major weakness (though due to be phased out) and the more modern cards do onboard crypto (dynamic authentication) whereas older ones don't.

      Their "Middleperson Attack" is ludicrously complicated and requires not only a lot of coordination but specialist equipment. Whereas the similar hack for mag stripe is for them to take a copy in ten seconds and use it where they like. Then there's spome muttering about side channel attacks.

      Seriously, is that all you've got for your ranting CAPITAL LETTERED assertion that it's damn easy to crack them?

      "Heck, the supposedly even more secure Passport RFID was breached recently and in a way that at least the bulk of the RFID readers for it can't detect the tampering."

      No, it wasn't. The elvis thing was done on a simple verification machine in an airport lobby, not a live one.
      Either way, that's irrelevant to the credit card question.

    11. Re:Any advancement? by Nursie · · Score: 1

      In fact, that site's full of crap.

      "Dispute Resolution"
      They say that because it was known that mag stripe cards could be cloned the dispute process was easier. What they don't say is that EMV cards have not yet been cloned and the bank can tell if a cloned card was used with chip or stripe. So if you dispute a transaction now you have exactly the same rights as before and the bank are even more likely to know about it in advance because the only way to clone an EMV card and use it for online transactions is to clone the mag stripe. with credit cards you still have the legal requirement that you be refunded until the issuer proves it was you that was fraudulent.Verdict - bullcrap

      "Point-of-Sale and ATM Linkage"
      Comes down to "If you have the same PIN on every card you're at risk, and people were safe before because they didn't bother to change or learn the PIN on a credit card."

      Hmmm.... seems like there's an obvious solution to that one... don't have all your numbers the same! They also miss out on the fact that cloned credit cards were valuable before EMV too. People are idiots, and this doesn't increase fraud. Verdict - Bullcrap

      "Cross-Border Fraud",/b>
      They say people see the PIN more often and can then make an ATM card that will work in non-chip countries. So the problem, as ever, is the existence of insecure legacy systems. And no, fraud is not made easier, using a cloned card at an ATM in a country with no EMV capability is made easier, cross border fraud was always easy. Banks now spot this behaviour anyway by checking how close transactions are together. Verdict - bullcrap

      "Fallback"

      Before Chip and PIN, if a magnetic stripe could not be read, the number embossed on the front of the card was simply typed in by hand. This is called a "fallback" mode of operation.

      With Chip and PIN, fraud can be perpetuated by...

      Whoa there! so fraud can be perpetrated by falling back to your beloved magnetic stripe that you just didn't mention fraud was a possibility for?

      Your bias is showing.

      Furthermore, for as long as UK cards must work abroad with mastripe only systems, and foreign cards work in the UK, this fallback mechanism will stay in existence -- a long time!

      FAIL. No it won't. The stripe contains an indicator that the card has a chip and the fallback mechanism can and will be disabled before too long. Not only that but fallback is used as an indicator of potential fraud. Verdict - bullcrap

      "Offline Counterfeiting"
      Offline machines can't tell the cheaper, older cards from fakes.

      Big fscking whoop, offline machines have a very low limit. Verdict - bullcrap

      "EMV Weaknesses"

      None were given.

      "Middleperson Attacks"

      Are extremely, overly complex, could have been done far more easily with stripes and basically require hi-tech equipment and a complicit merchant. Verdict - bullcrap

      "Smartcard Attacks"

      Again, none mentioned, other than costly physical attacks requiring very expensive equipment (hint, it's an electron microscope you need. Verdict - bullcrap

      basically, the guy is biased against it and for no good reason. The system is not bulletproof, but it's a fuck of a lot better than what went before, especially given the major holes are due to the existence of legacy systems and legacy countries.

    12. Re:Any advancement? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not in Italy!

    13. Re:Any advancement? by Zironic · · Score: 1

      It does work the same all over the world, Verified by Vista is a global program not UK specific. It's still rather rare AFAIK since I havn't seen it around much, then again I only use 2-3 different online merchants(World of Warcraft, Komplett.se(swedish version of newegg and datorbutiken.com(an alternative to komplett.).

    14. Re:Any advancement? by Peeteriz · · Score: 1

      I work in the credit card industry.
      There has never been a single fraud case with a cloned EMV chip+pin card in my country, and as far as I know, in the world as well.
      You can copy the magnetic stripe off the card, and clone a magnetic card; this is sometimes done, and if a merchant does not check the chip, then fraud can be performed; but then it's the merchant's fault and liability for not checking the cip.

      So, no, you cannot clone a EMV chip+pin. If it could be done, then it would be done by someone, as the $$$ is there for stealing...

  5. Re:But when will consumers see additional security by Ecyrd · · Score: 3, Insightful

    RFID is everywhere in Europe - just not on the credit cards. Yet. But the situation is changing.

    The US is skipping on the chip-n-pin because it makes sense for them to jump directly to the RFID cards, which are physically more durable, and allow for different form factors (like mobile phones or keyfobs).

    The RFID card security problems currently can be attributed to flawed security design, not to the technology itself. We trust TSL over WiFi, and WiFi is far more easier to skim than RFID comms.

  6. Re:But when will consumers see additional security by mcelrath · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You misunderstand the system.

    Credit card companies and banks make money from fraud. You (as a customer) pay for insurance that they use to cover the fraud. They have no incentive to change. Changing will just cost them money and won't affect their bottom line.

    At least, that's been the situation for decades. However the consequences of handing billions to criminals is starting to have an effect. The criminals have billions in assets, and can leverage those for bigger and bigger forms of fraud, and they are.

    I don't really want to hear any more of this crap about how they're going to "segment" my secret pieces of information behind a firewall. The whole system is a house of cards, built on "secret pieces of information" and heuristics about the kinds of transactions fraudsters perform. Once someone has stolen all the relevant secret pieces of information, all bets are off and the system has failed. These "secret" pieces of information are not hard to obtain, and adding more secret pieces of information (i.e. CVV2) is absolutely not a solution. I want end-to-end encryption and transactions which don't need to be perpetually stored in a database alongside my secret pieces of information.

    In short, I want electronic, encrypted cash. When my wallet is stolen and not worry that I will lose any more than the cash actually in the wallet. I don't want to have any more transactions denied because I traveled to a foreign country.

    But most importantly, I want to take those billions out of the hands of criminals.

    --
    1^2=1; (-1)^2=1; 1^2=(-1)^2; 1=-1; 1=0.
  7. Self assessment by colin_s_guthrie · · Score: 5, Interesting

    As a small company who has recently been through the self assessment procedure, I can say that the guidelines are very poorly designed in many cases.

    For example, on the instructions page (https://www.pcisecuritystandards.org/saq/instructions.shtml) there is a link to SAQ Validation Type 1 form (A) and describe the type of applicant thus:
    "Card-not-present (e-commerce or mail/telephone-order) merchants, all cardholder data functions outsourced. This would never apply to face-to-face merchants."

    But in form A part 2c it states:
    "Merchant does not store, process, or transmit any cardholder data on merchant premises but relies entirely on third party service provider(s) to handles these functions;"

    By answering yes to this question, a merchant is saying that they will not transmit the details on (i.e from, to or within) their premises. This would mean that e.g. a mail or telephone operator could not *transmit* the card details to a third party service provider. i.e. they cannot use the PAN in any way (they *can* store it on paper - so orders by mail are OK), but the requirement very specifically says "Merchant does not ... transmit any card holder data on merchant premises". If I cannot transmit this information on my premises I cannot send it out to our service provider for processing etc.

    This does not make logical sense. In theory, I could process payments via a PDQ machine directly connected to the phone line system and as the phone company is a "third party service provider" this could be argued to be compliant, but if I send it via e.g. an HTTPS website to an application hosted by our hosting company, this is technically going through our internal network before going through the wider internet (albeit encrypted via SSL) to our third party service provider. This is clearly "transmission on merchant premises".

    I'm probably interpreting things quite pedantically (but isn't that what you're supposed to do with this kind of security thing?), but the guidelines and forms are riddled with these ambiguities and contradictions. :(

    1. Re:Self assessment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree the standards are ridiculous. They are setup to be confusing and lead you into scenarios where you are basically not in compliance no matter what you do. I guess we'll just have to quit taking credit cards all together. I spent much of the last year making sure we were "compliant". My network setup has always been more then secure. Segmented and firewalled at each point to keep separate networks from even interacting. Even offering public wifi is iffy under these rules. I've always keep it totally segmented off, but I'm sure if any issues came up they'd just blame that and try to put on on the hook for the $50,000 per incident they can get you for.

      Side bar: Anyone been on Alaskan Airlines lately? They only take credit. Will NOT accept your cash. I swore there was something about it being legal tender in the US and must be accepted as such.

    2. Re:Self assessment by topham · · Score: 1

      Actually it does make sense; at least as much sense as the rest of the spec.

      The third-party handling they are refering to is front-to-back order processing. The merchant only gets the actual order; at no point do they handle the credit card data. Lots of companies outsource their mail-order phone sales.

      I definitely agree the spec is filled with ambiguities and contradictions though. Reading the article though I didn't see anything that should have constituted news to anyone in the industry. WEP has been known to be inappropriate for a long time. Segmenting of the network (without specs as to what counts) exists as a requirement in the 1.1 spec already, etc.

      The few things in the article just seem to be clarifications of the 1.1 spec; this is definitely a good thing.

    3. Re:Self assessment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      It's required that they accept cash for all outstanding debt, but not for any initial purchase.

    4. Re:Self assessment by vvaduva · · Score: 1

      I would say that you are reading too much into the text of standard, which is likely vague enough on purpose to allow for flexibility of interpretation on your end. Afterall you would not want PCI to tell you what kind of copper cable you need to use for your LAN and who your data provider need to be, right?

    5. Re:Self assessment by ToasterMonkey · · Score: 1

      Yes, it is very ambiguous, I agree with you, just making a comment about this part..

      Reading the article though I didn't see anything that should have constituted news to anyone in the industry.

      At first glance I thought it was all basic, common, best practice security principles too, until you get to the encryption key management parts. We're basically limited to high dollar "enterprise" level encryption products which must scare the living sh*t out of SMB's. Requirements 3.4 to 3.6 are what I'm talking about. 3.4.1.a disallows the commodity encryption features built into your OS, 3.6 is automatically very expensive because this was previously a luxury, 3.6.6 is pretty much only available in the highest end encryption products. I think that is one of the main features vendors use to distinguish their enterprise grade from lower grades in fact.

      Hopefully some good will come out of this crazy document and the more robust encryption/key management features will be pushed down to a wider audience. Maybe even open source developers will pick up on it now :\

    6. Re:Self assessment by Peeteriz · · Score: 1

      Exactly, that's for merchants who never see your card number (as it often is and IMHO should be).
      The merchant (i.e., the checkout page on the website) forwards the transaction details (amount + description) to a 3rd party secure processor; customer gets redirected to that 3rd party site, and handles the card authorisation; and the 3rd party responds to the merchant 'OK, we got the money!'.

      In that way the small merchants do not have to worry about properly securing card information, which is good, since I cannot imagine a small merchant being able to do that properly, since it does take quite a lot of money and effort.

  8. Re:But when will consumers see additional security by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    RFID are in Credit Cards in Europe!

    check out http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6975820.stm

    and http://www.mastercard.com/uk/personal/en/paypass/faq.html

  9. Is it a stick or a carrot and for who? by thogard · · Score: 1

    PCI was set up as an attempt to get merchants that don't care about security to consider it with out it being too hard and forcing them away from card payments. They pretend to have no conflict of interest yet the only way to get certified is by proving you do have a conflict of interest. Many of the ideas for standards tends to be controlled by people who want to micromanage how things are done (which means you can use their product). Some of the ideas tend to get implemented poorly just in a way to be "PCI compliant" without the full consideration of the real security issues at hand.

    The most interesting thing about the system is that the purpose of the auditors is to be the fall guys and take the liability. If a clearing house looses a bunch of card details, they won't be around long enough for anyone to sue which is why the auditors need so much insurance.

  10. Re:But when will consumers see additional security by Nursie · · Score: 1

    I'm not convinced RFID makes much sense really.

    With chip'n'pin there is cryptographic processing going on on the card to verify it's not being lied to by the shop or the bank. With RFID.... a number gets returned. Not so useful.

    If you're referring to wireless EMV (or similar) then that's different, but is usually still going to be in card form.

  11. Re:But when will consumers see additional security by Nursie · · Score: 3, Interesting

    "Credit card companies and banks make money from fraud."

    Not in the UK they don't. Oh sure, they probably have it insured, but until recently the liability for loss (where they couldn't prove the merchant or customer was complicit and don't catch anyone) was all theirs. This is because they supply the tech, they mandate the schemes, they set the standards.

    EMV goes some way to what you want, there is encrypted information sent between the card and the issuing bank that nobody else can read, but is dependant upon PIN. The biggest hole in the scheme is that you are still allowed to fall back to magnetic strip transactions in some places. They tend to be where the fraud is done now.

  12. Not too difficult by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    PCI compliance is not too difficult to follow. It should be the minimum done by anyone handling card commerce and trade.

  13. well by amnezick · · Score: 0

    most of these issues is why when I want to buy something online I just go to the bank and simply transfer money from my safe account (can't be used to buy online) to my unsafe account. Buy the stuff and that's it. You can't buy anything with my card cuz there's nothing on it until I want to buy something.
    I think one of the banks available here have this system: you have a debit account and virtual account associated with it. You can transfer money between them at any ATM. Sort of like "transferring" money from pocket to hand to buy groceries.
    Lose the ATM and move to online banking and that's about it. Online banking as far as I know is encrypted (I hope so).

    --
    mov ax,4c00h
    int 21h
  14. Ugh... I can hardly wait for 1.2 by The+AtomicPunk · · Score: 1

    PCI really seems like a good idea, gone wrong.

    It's getting more and more expensive and convoluted to abide by if you have to do more than the self-assessment. All the while, quite a few companies skirt by dangerously by faking it or lying.

    It seems like we might all be a little safer if they toned the requirements down a bit in a few areas, but beefed up the auditing requirements on the fundamentals.

  15. a/v for linux by Doobian+Coedifier · · Score: 5, Funny

    For instance, it clarifies that all operating systems associated with card processing have to run antivirus software, while many had thought this was only about Microsoft Windows.

    great, now I have to run ClamAV on all my fully-patched and secured dedicated web servers that don't store CC data anyway. I thought about writing my own AV program:
    #!/bin/sh
    echo "scanning for viruses..."
    sleep 10
    echo "no viruses found."
    exit 0

    1. Re:a/v for linux by NoisySplatter · · Score: 2, Funny

      How would you deal with the false positives?

      --
      In Soviet Russia meme tires of you!
    2. Re:a/v for linux by DiegoBravo · · Score: 1

      Enterprise-grade AV software is supposed to consume all CPU time. So improve:

      #!/bin/sh
      echo "scanning for viruses..."
      yes >/dev/null

    3. Re:a/v for linux by discogravy · · Score: 1

      #!/bin/sh
      echo "scanning for viruses..."
      sleep 10
      echo "no viruses found...no false positives."
      exit 0

    4. Re:a/v for linux by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No surprise there. I was dinged on a FISMA audit for not having anti-virus software on a Linux supercomputer.

      No lie.

    5. Re:a/v for linux by euri.ca · · Score: 1

      Completely off topic:

      Thank you for posting a joke in code. Seriously, Slashdot is becoming overwhelmed with car analogies and yelling that I want to be able to mod -1 insufficiently nerdy.

  16. Antivirus requirement by yuna49 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    From TFA:

    For instance, [the PCI revision] clarifies that all operating systems associated with card processing have to run antivirus software, while many had thought this was only about Microsoft Windows.

    "That sounds like a sensible piece of advice," says Sushila Nair, product manger at BT, who says organizations often deploy antivirus on Windows but erroneously believe Unix and Macs and other operating systems are somehow more invulnerable. However, she notes accommodating the clarified PCI rule on antivirus in many places will be "expensive."

    So what would constitute compliance with this rule? Is running periodic ClamAV scans on my Linux server sufficient? Will saying that I have ClamAV installed on the audit form be sufficient to comply with the new rule?

    This change seems to have as much to do with protecting the Windows franchise from erosion by *nix systems (in the name of "levelling the playing field") as it does with security. Not only does it ignore the very real differences in security among the various platforms, but it makes selling a Windows solution to upper management much easier than selling Linux. Of course a system with a Windows server and Norton or McAfee will pass muster. Linux+ClamAV? Who knows?

    1. Re:Antivirus requirement by gmack · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I nearly had a stroke when I read that but thankfully it's a bad summary, The requirement is for machines "commonly affected by malicious software"

      So my back end Linux servers will still not have AV software.

      I'm not even sure why such a stupid rule even applies to windows really. A well maintained windows server should be safe from viral infection as long as it's not used for web browsing, email or file sharing. In other words nothing you would use a back end credit card processing server for.

    2. Re:Antivirus requirement by gmack · · Score: 2, Interesting
    3. Re:Antivirus requirement by Zarhan · · Score: 1

      At my company the security guy was also a bit apalled by this if you decide to get literal(we have been audited and passed against PCI). What about routers? Do we need to run a virus scanner on the "servers" running IOS or JunOS?-) There isn't really THAT much difference between a Unix box and IOS box even if the latter ones usually have a bit more specialized hardware for processing network packets.

    4. Re:Antivirus requirement by jimicus · · Score: 1

      However, she notes accommodating the clarified PCI rule on antivirus in many places will be "expensive."

      So what would constitute compliance with this rule?

      Most commercial AV products are also available in Linux versions because plenty of Linux systems have to interact with Windows and could become transmission vectors, even if they're not infected themselves.

      This is certainly true of Sophos, McAfee and Symantec Enterprise.

      The only minor problem is that they often offer realtime scanning and are therefore very distribution-specific because the only way they can do this is by hooking into the Linux kernel to intercept filesystem calls.

    5. Re:Antivirus requirement by Jellybob · · Score: 1

      The only minor problem is that they often offer realtime scanning and are therefore very distribution-specific because the only way they can do this is by hooking into the Linux kernel to intercept filesystem calls.

      Or they could just use inotify, which has been present on every distro I've used in the past few years.

      I guess that would make a little too much sense for an anti-virus vendor though.

    6. Re:Antivirus requirement by thogard · · Score: 1

      PCI came form SETCo's specs (which I was involved with) and they still haven't caught up yet. The original idea is you need to run something like tripwire on your Unix systems and anti-virus stuff on your PCs and Macs (OS 10 didn't exist at that time). If your Unix systems are processing mail or file transfers and you have the ability to run anti-virus on the mail then you should. The idea was not to run Norton AV on your Unix OS.

    7. Re:Antivirus requirement by jimicus · · Score: 1

      Last time I tried using inotify it slowed the system down unacceptably - possibly because it was an IMAP server with maildir mailstores so it was dealing with notifications for thousands of files. This was a few weeks ago on Debian Etch.

    8. Re:Antivirus requirement by Danny+Rathjens · · Score: 1

      I interpret it to mean running software such as rkhunter and tripwire which can notify you of any modified or malicious files on your linux servers. I only run literal anti-virus software on the mail server to check incoming mail to our company because some employees(accountant/sales) use windows machines.

    9. Re:Antivirus requirement by ToasterMonkey · · Score: 1

      I know the previous version specifically mentioned UNIX systems are not commonly affected by viruses in a footnote..
      Still, it's pretty clear what they mean, I don't know why everyone was going crazy about this. They certainly didn't clarify it mean it includes UNIX (or -like) systems.

      ah, from the summary of changes..
      5.1 5.1 Requirement & Testing Procedure: Clarified
                      requirement applies to all operating systems types
                      commonly affected by malicious software, if applicable
                      anti-virus technology exists.
                      Besides use of the term "anti-virus software," changed
                      the term "virus" to "malicious software."
                      Deleted note stating "Systems commonly affected by
                      viruses typically do not include UNIX-based operating
                      systems or mainframes."

  17. Re:But when will consumers see additional security by gmack · · Score: 1

    There is no solution that would allow for the non logging of transactions that would also allow for accountability. Transactions simply must be logged for proof that the transaction happened and, in the case something goes wrong, to allow the rebuilding/ confirmation of the correct account balances.

    Having said that PCI-DSS does demand end to end encryption and the requirements for storage encryption go up considerably if you actually store the entire credit card number (masking it out works better). CVV2 does actually help because merchants are not ever allowed to store the CVV2 info. If the credit card companies ever find out that a merchant is storing CVV2 their ability to process transactions will be revoked.

  18. Re:But when will consumers see additional security by mcelrath · · Score: 1

    There is no solution that would allow for the non logging of transactions that would also allow for accountability.

    Open your wallet and look for the funny colored pieces of paper. It also does not have accountability, and has worked fantastically for thousands of years.

    Accountability is something I can live without, and would occur at other points in the system (i.e. bank transfers, paycheck deposits, etc). Accountability with merchants is needed only if the system is so insecure that a merchant can actually perform a fraudulent transaction. A merchant cannot take physical cash from my wallet from afar.

    An encryption scheme with the same properties as cash (and no accountability) can be easily created.

    --
    1^2=1; (-1)^2=1; 1^2=(-1)^2; 1=-1; 1=0.
  19. Re:But when will consumers see additional security by gegebenenfalls · · Score: 1
    PCI is pushed by the card schemes so acquirers and banks they reduce actual fraud and to reduce the reputation / legal 'complications' of a reported breach. Which is more important is a question for the reader.

    Yes there is the insurance aspect, however it is useful to note that the card schemes attempt as much as possible to push liability to the card issuers who push to the acquirers / third party processors who push to the merchants.

    The requirements relating to segmentation give the payment processor the ability to implement stronger security within the 'PCI' secured segment. That is, corporates do not have to prove the same level of security is in place for the corporate network side - as long as the full PAN, CCV, exp date is not able to be accessed from the corporate network side.

    There are also requirements about length of time transactions are to be stored / retained in full. There is less of a problem (note: not no problem) for the actual transaction authorisation / payment and more on the merchant storing the data (particularly those that store the data in their POS systems (integrated into the acquirer terminals or separate).

    Card Schemes are pushing the card issuers to have the reviews performed on the third parties they use for payment processing, this goes all the way down to the smallest merchants. However companies that have low transaction volumes are not required to prove compliance (through external review) and are just required to self report.

  20. Re:But when will consumers see additional security by mcelrath · · Score: 1

    CVV2 does actually help because merchants are not ever allowed to store the CVV2 info.

    Every person I know carries around a digital camera in their pocket. The number is printed on the credit card. CVV2 is treated as secret by certain parties, but fraudsters are certainly not going to play by those rules. As such, CVV2 is like the "orange alert" system. "Hey look! We're doing something!" It may mitigate some fraud occurring high in the CC processing chain, but I doubt that's not where most of the fraud was coming from in the first place.

    --
    1^2=1; (-1)^2=1; 1^2=(-1)^2; 1=-1; 1=0.
  21. Re:But when will consumers see additional security by mcelrath · · Score: 1
    All of this is just new paint on a rusty Yugo. The fundamental flaw is:

    Credit cards are an authorization based system and NOT a transaction-based system. If you hold the right credentials (secret pieces of information) you are authorized to perform any transaction you want, at any time. Did you know merchants you transacted with a year ago still have authorization to perform transactions later, without your consent?

    I want a transaction-based system in which I can perform transactions, and no information is stored anywhere about anything except for the transaction itself. It is then easy to verify transactions, because the only ones that get initiated are ones with my card, when I am present, and I can choose to agree or not agree to the transaction at the time it occurs. (Just like cash)

    I do not ever want to give anyone authorization to perform transactions against my account. I want to give them a specific amount of money, at a specific time, and that's it.

    --
    1^2=1; (-1)^2=1; 1^2=(-1)^2; 1=-1; 1=0.
  22. Re:But when will consumers see additional security by gmack · · Score: 1

    CVV2 is there to force the card theft to be either physical (from the back of the card) or real time (by monitoring transactions on the server).

    If I take a picture of your credit card: I have one credit card and it took me several seconds to get it and I risk getting caught.

    If I monitor the server I have to either transmit the data back to myself in real time or break in again to read my logs. Both increase my risk of being caught but I can gain hundreds or thousands of cards.

    Before CVV2 If I broke in to your server once I could grab all of your logs and have thousands or even millions of credit card numbers in a single shot without having to come back. It was actually a huge problem before CVV2.

  23. Re:But when will consumers see additional security by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    last year barclays ran a trial in and around canary wharf, london.

    it was a rfid card that could be used for payments under £10. not sure how far this has spread but i'm seeing these machines in other areas now.

    i also heard plans to integrate the card with oyster (underground ticket) and a nokia mobile.

  24. Great, another monoculture by rastoboy29 · · Score: 1

    Although security standards do have some appeal, the way it's playing out is that everyone is doing the same thing--that which is required to pass a "security scan" and no more.  No reason to like, think about it or anything, or hire a real expert.  Mind you, it's hard to assess the expertise of someone if you're not a member of their profession.

    Anyway, monoculture is bad, mmkay.  Not saying I have a nice pre-packaged solution with a pamphlet and everything....

  25. Re:But when will consumers see additional security by wighed · · Score: 1

    EMV is becoming the standard worldwide.

    RFID is not necessarily more secure, however, it's more convenient, but only if the proper education is given to vendors and consumers alike that adopt the cards and readers with RFID technology.

    The whole idea behind RFID is convenience. No swiping and waiting, just pass over with a certain proximity and out comes the receipt, under $25 no signature required. DES is used primarily for security, but I'm sure whatever else the Payments industry is setting standards for will be followed up with in short time.

    It makes more sense for banks to issue RFID cards and key fobs (ie. citibank and Master Card Pay Pass fobs) because they don't have to expire, lessening the cost of producing more plastic cards every couple years and spending more money on the inlays with the chips in them each time.

    The added security feature I would imagine is not having the credit card numbers and your name taken from the card for fraud, because the key fobs don't have that information on them. And you would always use the same solution if you lost a card or key fob, you call the company and have them cancel it and send you a new one.

    --
    WWJD? (What Would Jonas Do? - Spinward Fringe by Ran
  26. Re:But when will consumers see additional security by Jellybob · · Score: 1

    I do not ever want to give anyone authorization to perform transactions against my account. I want to give them a specific amount of money, at a specific time, and that's it.

    That's fine if all you ever use your card for is buying things in a shop, but some people want to use it for recurring payments, which requires the merchant to be authorized for future transactions.

    Ideally I'd like to be able to restrict *how much* they can take in a transaction, but I really don't want to have to fill in my details every month to pay the bill for my internet connection.

  27. Re:But when will consumers see additional security by welshie · · Score: 1

    So it won't be too long before unscrupulous cashiers (or their handlers) fit optical scanners on their clandestine card skimmers to read the CVV2 (and signature - why not) from the back of the card whilst the mag stripe is being swiped. At least with chip and pin stuff, the ATMs in the countries that support it will actively compare magstrip with data read from the ICC, and probably reject transactions or retain the card if they suspect fraud (eg. if the auth request says there was only a mag stripe, but the issuer says that card should have a chip on it, then they get rejected). This just means that the skimmed card clones end up being used in countries that still only use mag stripe.. Which is fairly easy for the fraud triggers at the card issuer to work their magic. Cardholder present in geographically disparate locations within a few hours.. That sort of thing.

  28. Re:But when will consumers see additional security by kabocox · · Score: 1

    At least, that's been the situation for decades. However the consequences of handing billions to criminals is starting to have an effect. The criminals have billions in assets, and can leverage those for bigger and bigger forms of fraud, and they are.

    Are the former criminals going into politics or actually just starting their own banks now?

  29. Re:But when will consumers see additional security by maxume · · Score: 1

    So start Bill's Credit Emporium. Merchants will surely jump to work with someone who is willing to be liable for all transactions (or rather, force their other customers to be liable, whatever).

    --
    Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
  30. Check writing still rampant by sjbe · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Now I appeaciate that the US only recently moved away from Checks...

    Moved away from checks? Hardly. Go to any grocery store in the US the day all the old folks get their social security checks and you'll see what I mean. Most bills still are paid by check despite the cost, inconvenience and inefficiency. Checks remain very heavily used in the US anywhere you go. Hell, Visa even has an entire ad campaign for their debit cards to try to get people to use the cards instead of writing checks. Visa wouldn't be bothering if checks weren't an incredibly common method of payment.

    Otherwise you are right. The security sucks and there seems little motivation to improve matters.

  31. Re:But when will consumers see additional security by sjames · · Score: 1

    The amusing thing about CVV2 is that you have to tell it to any merchant you want to charge something with. If you do, it becomes worthless, and if you don't, it's worthless.

  32. No biggie by Verdatum · · Score: 1

    I had to follow this standard on a previous project, and looking at the summary of changes, it's largely rather routine. Most of the changes actually look like relaxations: Less frequent testing, more generic terminology (removing specific wireless security mechanisms), and a bunch of clarifications of intent. The ruling on antivirus software for UNIX systems is a little silly to me, but it doesn't make much in the way of strong clarifications as to the quality of the software. It sounds like a standard cover-your-ass ruling. While annoying to install, it's nothing difficult for any topology I can imagine. The threat of changes yet to come may be a hassle, but if they aren't defined yet, I wouldn't really call that hideously newsworthy.

  33. Re:But when will consumers see additional security by JesseMcDonald · · Score: 1

    An encryption scheme with the same properties as cash (and no accountability) can be easily created.

    Go ahead and try. It's no so easy as you appear to think. To get you started, try answering this question: How do I know that this "e-cash" hasn't been duplicated (spent more than once) without a central database tying each unit to its current owner?

    Cash works because it's tied to physical matter, and because effective counterfeiting is hard (and incurs highly disproportionate penalties). Even assuming that e-cash cannot be counterfeited per se (each "e-note" being securely signed by the issuer) you still have the problem that receiving an e-note does not in any way imply that the sender no longer possesses said e-note. They can send it to someone else and it will appear just as genuine to them as it did to you.

    Also, every electronic system which has come anywhere close to the anonymity of cash has been shut down for "money laundering". Cash itself only survives because it remains political suicide to even consider doing away with it.

    --
    "The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else." - Bastiat
  34. License To Print Money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I work for a small(ish) software house where our two main clients are UK FTSE100 companies. Both are using exactly the same software and have a very similar network setup. They both independently employed different PCI consultants to audit the software and network and sent the results to us for comment. One set of consultants had recommended a huge amount of changes before they could certify PCI compliance, the other just some tweaks here and there. Guess what, the company that recommended all the changes could, coincidentally, carry out a large portion of the work themselves. Until the CC industry addresses cowboys like that, it's no wonder that companies look at PCI as being a waste of time and money.

  35. Re:But when will consumers see additional security by osgeek · · Score: 1

    So you sign a recurring "not to exceed" transaction.

  36. Should really be government regulated by scamper_22 · · Score: 1

    Imagine if each bank/company could issue their own cash. They would each print their own denominations with different security features... it would be a mess.

    So why doesn't the government regulate 'e-security'. At the very least, it should take opinion from the IEEE or something to guide the industry.

    I'm still amazed we don't have chip cards.

    Anywhose...

  37. PCI doesn't provide actual security by scdeimos · · Score: 2, Interesting

    PCI is all about encrypting credit card numbers and expiry dates - and nothing else. Even a fully-PCI-compliant system is a rich source of unencrypted information for Identity Theft.

    Although the PCI security standards recommend to companies that they do criminal history checks on suspect employees working with credit card data (and a company I worked for, claiming PCI compliance, had a compulsory criminal history check on the first day for *all* employees even though they were working nowhere near credit card data) it still doesn't address some of the weakest links: the human operators and the GUIs that they use.

    I recently closed a Buyers Edge credit card, operated by GE Capital Finance in Australia. I couldn't supply the "account password" to the telephone operator on one call, but after supplying other identifying information the operator was able to READ MY ACCOUNT PASSWORD BACK TO ME. What's up with that: displaying the password for the account in clear text on the screen? Why aren't they encrypted? Why don't they have an input to type potential passwords in to that says "Yes it's right," or "No, it's wrong"? There's nothing stopping employees from snooping through customer records to gather saleable information for the Identity Theft market.

    The only good thing I can say from my experience is, "I'm glad my credit card with them is closed."

    1. Re:PCI doesn't provide actual security by ToasterMonkey · · Score: 1

      Hell no. You don't know what you're talking about, read the PCI-DSS before even thinking about replying to this.

      They make it pretty damned clear what the intent is, and what's tested.

      PCI is all about encrypting credit card numbers and expiry dates - and nothing else. Even a fully-PCI-compliant system is a rich source of unencrypted information for Identity Theft.

      For one thing, identity theft doesn't really enter into the equation here. For example, other identifying features like US social security numbers are not mentioned, or even relevant here. It also has nothing to do with preventing people from fraudulently signing up for credit cards in other people's names. This is about protecting monetary assets, and consumer trust. There is also a pretty picture on page four that describes exactly what requires encryption or can be stored at all. Expiration dates generally don't need to be encrypted, and of course your PIN and mag stripe data are encrypted and stored only in a HSM if anywhere at all.

      For the record, what you described does seem to violate 8.4.b of these the latest version of PCI-DSS.

      There's nothing stopping employees from snooping through customer records to gather saleable information for the Identity Theft market.

      Here's a secret about customer service.. they ALREADY have access to your account! It's their JOB! They probably shouldn't have your plaintext password (mentioned that above), but the tools they use to do their jobs are checked, controlled, and audited. These people are screened accordingly, as you seem to be aware.

      human operators and the GUIs that they use.

      Yah, trust me, the "GUIs" they use are incredibly audited. After all, most fraud is committed by insiders. You are not the first person to think "OMG the CS rep can steal my DATAs!"

  38. Lousy feedback, standards only, tactical solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There are ambiguities and different interpretations of the PCI standard however, in my experience of multiple audits, the biggest issues are (i) the standards body does not do a good job answering questions (ii) the standards body only sets the standard, it defers 100% to the card companies on compliance dates and fines.

    IMO if implemented properly the standard does lower risk but of course you can never have zero risk.

    On the question of why doesn't the USA adopt chip and pin. I have heard that the card companies don't believe American consumers would sacrifice convenience for security. Chip + pin and/or encryption at the point of entry are no brainers that we should be adopting as strategic solutions.

    On RFID security. Hacking wireless networks is mostly just "cool" but if you can hack RFID you can get money...I wonder which has the higher risk rating.

  39. The PCI one-size-fits-all mentality by the+big+v · · Score: 1

    I have the job of assuring PCI compliance at my company. In July the PCI rules changed and some of our systems suddenly became non-compliant as reported by our scanning service.

    The two issues were:
      1) we ran identd
      2) we ran anonymous ftp

    The problem is that just the existence of these services is a PCI violation. Even though it is possible (and we do) to configure these services securely.

    For identd, the "threat" is that it will leak information about user accounts. We run the liedentd daemon, which responds "nobody" to every request. Thus no information is ever leaked, yet we are not compliant. We run identd since we send a lot of mail and a large percentage of remote sites do ident queries and having an ident server speeds things up.

    For anonymous ftp, the threats are: user account leaks, DoS by filling your disk, and making files available. All of these are easily mitigated. Running anonymous ftp in a chroot jail with a private password file limits revealing any information about users -- just delete all but the mandatory "root" and "ftp" user IDs. Limit uploads by only allowing uploads into a small disk partition mounted as the "incoming" directory. We use a file-based virtual file system (vnode file system in BSD) to limit uploads to 50MB. There is no way to fill our real disk. Finally, because it is in a chroot, no other files will be leaked.

    At least for the anonymous ftp, we could fake out our scanning company by renaming the "root" account in the jail to "toor".

    There is no workaround for the identd "violation". I don't think the people making the PCI really think very much about the anything other than traditional e-commerce web service applications.

    --
    The only ``intuitive'' interface is the nipple. After that, it's all learned.
  40. Re:But when will consumers see additional security by sciencewhiz · · Score: 1

    Those losses have to be paid from somewhere. It's either paid by the consumer (hidden in the interest rates and fees), or by the merchants (in the transaction fees), or the credit card companies would go out of business. That was the GP's point.

  41. Re:But when will consumers see additional security by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They do not make money from fraud. Do you have some evidence they they buy 'insurance' to cover these losses? Because that would be expensive and ridiculous. They are self insured. Granted, when they can they push fraud losses onto someone else (the merchant).

    But in the bigger picture, they want to stop /rampant/ fraud, and have an interest in doing so. If the credit cards are no longer viewed by consumers as safe, they will be used less, and that will deprived the card brands of $$$.

    The PCIDSS, PADSS, and other security initiatives are the card brands trying to add some security to what is, in essence, a weak (broken) system. They pretend that the cardholder data (track,PAN,CVV2) is secret, when in fact you have to give it out for every transaction. Much like we pretend that SSNs are a secret, when every doctor's secretary has them.

    That said, they are trying to protect what is inherently a weak system, because they aren't going to throw it out over night because you want encrypted cash.

  42. Re:But when will consumers see additional security by vldmr_krn · · Score: 1

    In short, I want electronic, encrypted cash.

    Your software can't be trusted to tell others how much money you have, so your information has to be backed by credible sources. The best-case scenario is this: These credible sources keep your funds both private and accessible. They give you a physical key to unlock your funds when making physical purchases, and a digital key to send to Internet applications. The physical key should be difficult to copy and easy to invalidate and replace in case of theft or loss. The digital key should be complex enough to discourage random duplication yet simple enough to be inputted into computer systems using traditional input devices. Since communication can be intercepted on the Internet, the transmission of the digital keys must be encrypted. This would complete the architecture, and would leave the rest in the hands of the maintenance department, including battling fraud. Due to the digital component, there are more attack vectors against it than against cash.

    You have what you wanted in its most evolved form. If you know of a way to improve it, I would have liked to have read it.

    This resembles an anarchist advocating a system in whose most evolved form he is already living.