Down's Symptoms May Be Treatable In the Womb

missb writes "US researchers have found that prenatal treatment for Down syndrome works in mice. This raises the possibility that a pregnant woman who knows her unborn child has Down syndrome might be able to forestall some of the symptoms before giving birth. When fetal mouse pups that had a syndrome similar to Down's were treated with nerve-protecting chemicals, some of the developmental delays that are part of the condition — such as motor and sensory abilities — were removed."

Comments

Re:Suck em out

[sydbarrett74]

Isn't an abortion a lot cheaper? I mean, with these genetic misfits being somehow a part of society, we could be doing some damage to our gene pool.

Erm, in case your remark isn't facetious: individuals with Down's Syndrome are typically sterile.

Nice troll, but...

[EWAdams]

... as Down's syndrome people seldom reproduce, no, we're not doing damage to the gene pool.

Some interesting questions might be asked about the ability of Down's syndrome sufferers to look after themselves after their parents have died, and who does it if they can't. I don't know the answers, though.

Re:Nice troll, but...

[glittalogik]

As a general rule their intellectual development will freeze at around the level of a 4th or 5th grader, but they are capable of the emotional maturity and ability to complete of domestic tasks to keep themselves alive. They can often do quite well in a sharehouse/hostel kind of environment with a part-time carer or health professional available to help them with complex tasks or issues. Complete independence is unlikely (although possible in some cases) but they're not helpless.

Re:Nice troll, but...

[jamesh]

It's uncommon but they can reproduce.

I think the nature of Down's though is that they seldom outlive their parents - life expectancy is much lower.

Re:Nice troll, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

A friend told me about a young man with Downs syndrome who is adept at arithmetic. He lives alone and works as an accountant. Not bad at all for someone with his condition. If only us "normal" people all had the winning attitude and supportive family this man has...

Re:Nice troll, but...

[stranger_to_himself]

It's uncommon but they can reproduce.

I think the nature of Down's though is that they seldom outlive their parents - life expectancy is much lower.

That was true a few years ago but now life expectancy of DS is around 50. Mean life expectancy in DS has also historically been skewed by the large number of people with Down syndrome dying in childhood. Since the average age of parents of DS children is about 30-35, this means nowadays that most DS children will outlive their parents, at least they will outlive the time where theire parents can care for them.

Having said that, DS often only confers a mild cognitive impairment. Also most of us without DS will be dependent on others and suffer some impairment for at least a few years before we die, and this stage of life should not be stigmatised.

Re:Nice troll, but...

[bill_mcgonigle]

A friend told me about a young man with Downs syndrome who is adept at arithmetic. He lives alone and works as an accountant. Not bad at all for someone with his condition. If only us "normal" people all had the winning attitude and supportive family this man has...

Whatever you do, don't give out his name - this place is lousy with eugenicists. They don't yet realize the trick is they're less than perfect themselves and will eventually be culled.

It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[0xdeadbeef]

There's already a treatment guaranteed to prevent the expression of these symptoms: abortion.

Oh, I know the every sperm is sacred types will whine about this, but consider the desires of the child. Wouldn't you prefer never to have existed if you knew you would be subjected to mental retardation, health complications, and a short lifespan?

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[tgd]

Wish I had mod points. You deserve some for being absolutely right while likely getting flamed into oblivion for it.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[Microlith]

I think the point of this is more in figuring out how to, step by step, intercept and prevent the syndrome entirely.

Sure, abortion prevents it as well. But the option to defeat the syndrome during development and not have it expressed at all in a living person would be better.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[Darkness404]

And to your solution I have another, if the kid really feels that way, there is an easy way: suicide. If they felt that it was best not to have existed they can kill themselves. But honestly, I don't see any sky-high suicide rates for mentally impaired people, dying people or people with health conditions.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[c_sd_m]

The people I know with disabilities, particularly mental ones, are generally happier than the rest of us.
Have you ever spent time with someone with Down's Syndrome, severe Autism, ...?

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[powerspike]

maybe that is because they don't fully understand what they are missing, or just can't compehend it ?

did you everthink of that.

and to see it from the other pov, once you are aware you have life, you want to keep it. (well most of us do).

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[neuromanc3r]

I have spent quite a lot of time with autists (worked at a school for disabled children), and they are generally not happy people. (By pointing that out I am not trying to support the gp's point!)
You're right about people with Down's syndrome though.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[TheRaven64]

maybe that is because they don't fully understand what they are missing, or just can't compehend it ?

I tend to assume that's why most of the people who aren't me haven't committed suicide. Slashdot trolls: the reason 59th trimester abortions should be legal.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[message144]

"I know the every sperm is sacred types will whine about this"

FYI, sperm != human life.

"Wouldn't you prefer never to have existed if you knew you would be subjected to mental retardation, health complications, and a short lifespan"

What qualifications do you have to make this decision on behalf of others?

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[0xdeadbeef]

Then perhaps the solution for a perfectly happy society is to lobotimize ourselves, become completely dependent on our caregivers, and die at thirty.

Wait, isn't that Logan's Run?

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[denzacar]

There is graveyard near where I live.

Its full of people with no problems at all. From where I stand, they must be VERY happy.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[Shados]

No, they can't. Everyone will do everything they can to stop them, they'll have long periods of trauma and depressions, if they miss they'll be put in a psychiatric hospital, and it may make things worse.

In this world, killing yourself is potentially harder than killing someone else.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[Anonymous Coward]

Down's is caused by an extra chromosome, it's impossible to defeat the syndrome during development without modifying the genetic code of every cell in the body.

Abortion should be an option for those who agree with it, but those who don't and who belong to high-risk groups (women in their late forties who do not agree with contraception either) need to understand that they are playing Russian roulette, which is fitting if they can see Russia from their house.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[morari]

Would it really be better? The world is already over populated and resources will only become rarer as time goes on. Humanity needs a new natural predator or plague.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[Culture20]

The world is already over populated and resources will only become rarer as time goes on. Humanity needs a new natural predator or plague.

If you live in the U.S., I hope the FBI has figured out the methods you plan to use to cull humanity, and are working diligently to prevent them. In the mean time, you might want to take a google maps look at the Western U.S. and Canada. Lots of empty space.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[apparently]

Wouldn't you prefer never to have existed if you knew you would be subjected to mental retardation, health complications, and a short lifespan?

It depends -- for how long would I get to suck on Palin's tah-tah's? I mean, theoretically, that's a perk you could probably -ahem- milk for a few years, no?

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[Iamthecheese]

Thats right, more people need to die! you go first.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[Chuck Chunder]

maybe that is because they don't fully understand what they are missing, or just can't compehend it ?

did you everthink of that.

They? What about you? I'm sure there's plenty you don't comprehend and are missing but don't know about.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[spazdor]

it's impossible to defeat the syndrome during development without modifying the genetic code of every cell in the body.

So what you're saying is, it might be easier when the body consists of fewer cells?

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[spazdor]

Misnomer.

It should really be called Up syndrome.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[Markspark]

or just hand out Soma.. psychotropic drugs FTW!

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[MrMista_B]

There are people in the world who are healthier, fitter, and smarter than you. Compared to them, you're disabled.

Should you therefore, according to your logic, be executed?

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[Thiez]

> So what you're saying is, it might be easier when the body consists of fewer cells?

It will be easier but still impossible. You would have to remove a complete choromose from every cell in the body. We cannot even remove a single chromosome from a cell, by the time it is possible to diagnose downs syndrome, there are millions/billions of cells already. Even if such a treatment were possible (and I daresay this will not happen during our lifetimes), it would have all kinds of risks, and it would probably be ridiculously expensive.

Why even go there? Just get an abortion and try again. I'm sure medical science has more important things to cure.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[Thiez]

> In the mean time, you might want to take a google maps look at the Western U.S. and Canada.

There may be space for more more people, but do you really think we could support even the 6 billion people we have now if all of them would have american standards of living?

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[Anonymous Coward]

> In this world, killing yourself is potentially harder than killing someone else.

I hear you! Ever since I killed my mother-in-law, I'm afraid she's waiting for me in hell. These days even crossing the street scares the crap out of me, suicide would be unthinkable!

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[yakiimo]

How incredibly small minded. How do you think the super-genius thinks about your pitiful, semi-intelligent existence? Does that diminish the value you place on your own life?

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[orasio]

Everybody might have health complications. I am happy to live, even if I have thyroid dysfunction, and early graying.

Shorter lifespans are not so much of an issue. People smoke, eat a lot, and don't exercise, everyday, everywhere.

That leaves us with the central issue: the mental "retardation" problem.
In my case, I wouldn't mind having a much lower IQ than I have now. Most people I know do, and they are happy. I don't think rational abilities are that much important for a good life.

I know several individuals with the syndrome, and they seem to like living a lot. They are not drooling pieces of furniture, they are real people with feelings, hopes, and limitations, just like us. It's true they never grow up, but who needs to?

I think the issue is that they don't do real work, so they can't be assured a decent living in most societies. I understand getting rid of them is the easiest solution, but I don't think it's the only one.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[yakiimo]

Mod parent up please. I can't believe the eugenics trolls are getting higher mod points on slashdot than comments like this. Unbelievable.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[shawn(at)fsu]

When all you have is a hammer all your problems look like nails

I'll assume your not suggesting that all fetus should be aborted, and that it should be forced. So we'll go from there. If the mother decides to carry the pregnancy to term whats the wrong with preventing the child from suffering some of the debilitating side effects of DS.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[the_Bionic_lemming]

There's already a treatment guaranteed to prevent the expression of these symptoms: abortion.

Oh, I know the every sperm is sacred types will whine about this, but consider the desires of the child. Wouldn't you prefer never to have existed if you knew you would be subjected to mental retardation, health complications, and a short lifespan?

Yes, because no parent would ever want the option to save their child, and have them grow up normally.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[arb phd slp]

There is a continuous spectrum of cognitive capacity from near-vegetative to super-genius. Are we supposed to decide people's right to live based on arbitrary cut-offs on tests that we already know aren't perfectly valid? Absolutely not.

I really wish that my advisor would get her study submitted and published so that I could link to it here. (I'm sure she says the same thing about my own as well).

She's been doing early intervention with DS kids much earlier than ever before and providing high-tech means for them to communicate. After 5 years the kids are entering school on-par with their peers.

It is starting to look like mental retardation is a secondary symptom of DS, not a primary one. DS results in SPEECH disability, which messes up language development, which in turn screws up cognitive development. We've been providing an alternative, non-speech, means to communication development and it has led to surprisingly positive results in cognition development. (This falls into the category of "manuscript in progress" and hasn't been published in a peer-reviewed journal yet, but I expect it to pass that hurdle in the next year or so).
Here is a description of the study methods.
http://www.aac-rerc.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=135&Itemid=152
It's in Breeze. Sorry about that.

So, if it becomes known that Down syndrome only causes mental retardation when we fail to provide the right care and education, do you still think that abortion/eugenics is an appropriate treatment???

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[0xdeadbeef]

You don't like hearing the stark truth, so you call me a troll.

I've probably thought about this issue far more than the knee-jerkers responding to me. I was born with enough complications that I'd have been dead half a century earlier. I still marvel that not only did I survive, I did so with high intelligence and good physical health. I am my abilities, and if I were destined to be without them, I'd rather my parents had thrown that four pound runt into the dumpster.

How many of you are willing to live deformed, retarded, and destined for a premature death? Would you trade your lives to give one of these children a normal life? Would you sacrifice the resources spent on you and your children to care for someone else's burden, only because they believe fetuses have souls and killing them is murder?

To hell with them. No child should be born to suffer, to be anything less than fully human.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[Lord Kano]

Wouldn't you prefer never to have existed if you knew you would be subjected to mental retardation, health complications, and a short lifespan?

Shitty attitude aside, you seem to be doing just fine.

LK

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[Lord Kano]

Would it really be better? The world is already over populated and resources will only become rarer as time goes on. Humanity needs a new natural predator or plague.

If you really believed this, you could help save the planet today. Jump off of a building.

LK

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[Ethanol-fueled]

Having done a few charity stints with the disabled as well as knowing friends and family with afflicted relatives, I know that many people with down's syndrome and similar disabilities are well aware of their being treated unequally to other people. They soon realize that they can use their disability to their advantage and they fully utilize it whenever possible.

Like children, they may not be demonstratively conscious of the way the world works, but they're chock full of raw instinct. Dogs have the emotional maturity of a 3 year old human but you can still look into a dog's eyes and know exactly what they're feeling.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[Anonymous Coward]

90% of women who learn about the condition during pregnacy in fact abort. in quite a number of cases it's too late to perform a standard abortion, those women give birth to the child and it dies during the procedure.

you obviously do not have the slightest idea what you're talking about. short lifespan was yesterday, trisomie 21 humans get 60+ these days. statistically, they have a higher rate of health complications. so do fat people or people with other genetic preconditions. and what qualifies you to judge the life quality and the self awareness of humans you don't know!?

basically, you're just an eugenic jerk....

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[Neuticle]

Actually, Soma by itself is only mildly psychotropic at the commonly prescribed dose, but it is a strong potentiator of opioids, so mix your poisons carefully.

Yes, it's a real drug (a skeletal muscle relaxant), and I couldn't stop myself from giggling when I filled my prescription a few years back.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carisoprodol

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[Anonymous Coward]

Please mod this up. I blew all 15 of my mod points on yesterday's posts, and this is far worthier of points than any of those.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[Rakarra]

The mentally retarded kid (back then we weren't told whether it was Downs, Autism, etc) I went to school with back in the day spent a good portion of his time angry and frustrated that he wasn't "getting" things like the other kids were. He'd usually be ok, say, out on the playground, but not in class.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[macbutch]

>It will be easier but still impossible.

Aah, I love easy impossible things...

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[Ihlosi]

So I can commit any atrocity I want as long as I give my victims the option of suicide to escape it?

How is not killing someone who doesn't express explicit desire to be dead an atrocity again?

Suicide is actually a terrible thing, even (especially?) for those who commit it.

So is killing someone without their explicit approval.

I don't think it's humane to say "Oh, you don't like the life we forced you to have or the world we forced you to live in? Kill yourself!". Actually, I think you're sick.

Uh huh. So it's more humane to say, "Well, we're pretty sure that you're not going to like your life, so we're going to take it away from you whether you like it or not."?

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[stranger_to_himself]

Wish I had mod points. You deserve some for being absolutely right while likely getting flamed into oblivion for it.

The GP is not right. All the things he mentions are relative, not absolute. People with DS can lead happy, fulfilling lives, and that's really the only thing that matters in this case. Before you judge the value of the lives of people with DS you should ask them whether they would have preferred not to have been born.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[Jugalator]

maybe that is because they don't fully understand what they are missing, or just can't compehend it ?

Then what is the problem?

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[tgd]

Can? Sure.

Need to? Hell no, not in a world overpopulated by a factor of 2-5.

I don't have to ask anyone to judge their value in that context. At its coldest, its not hard to judge absolute value -- what is the benefit a birth will bring to society versus its cost.

If you want to talk relative vs absolute, there's a pretty significant percentage of people who end up in the red on that count.

If society has a certain amount of resources available to support the raising of the next generation, and the birth of the child in question will use the resources that otherwise could've been used for ten children without fundamental genetic defects, that's a pretty absolute value judgment as well.

The GP is absolutely right -- we as a society (particularly in the US) fail miserably at making rational judgment calls because of a misguided and unjustified assignment of irrational amounts of value to a bunch of cells.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[Anonymous Coward]

At the risk of coming across as cold, who says it's about the children? If I was pregnant with a child with down syndrome, I'd have an abortion for my OWN sake. Others are free to not do so, but I at least wouldn't want to raise a child like that.

I mean... raise a child that will eventually grow up to be able to sustain themselves and lead their own life? Sure. Raise a child that will depend on me for the rest of their life? Sorry, I'm not going to sign up for life without parole if I can help it.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[stranger_to_himself]

I don't have to ask anyone to judge their value in that context. At its coldest, its not hard to judge absolute value -- what is the benefit a birth will bring to society versus its cost.

If you want to talk relative vs absolute, there's a pretty significant percentage of people who end up in the red on that count.

How do you measure the benefits and costs to society? In dollar value? That would be pretty much impossible, certainly in the case of benefits. How can you quanify the benefits a person brings?

If society has a certain amount of resources available to support the raising of the next generation, and the birth of the child in question will use the resources that otherwise could've been used for ten children without fundamental genetic defects, that's a pretty absolute value judgment as well.

I don't agree with this. A society is about people giving and taking. Different people give and take different amounts and this varies with their environment and the stage of their life. I know of people with DS who definately contribute more than they take. Converesly I know of a lot of people who take considerably more than they give. I wouldn't advocate killing people on that basis.

Incidentally I'd be interested to know how you get the over-populated by 2-5 figure. I'm not arguing with it, I'm just curious.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[TheLink]

I hear many of the smart ones in the US schools are unhappy in the playground and sometimes even in class too.

There's a lot more "outside" than "inside", so maybe we should euthanize the smart ones ;).

I sure see lots of stupid people around here (including me), we're lucky that nobody is going around euthanizing us just because we don't meet some arbitrary standard.

Seriously, in the long run the odds appear to be => we are all dead. Even if we somehow make it out of this solar system to another viable one, we're likely to be still doomed in the long run.

But I bet we're going to try anyway.

Why? Because the creatures that went "It's too hard, dying is easier" on the first sign of trouble, died out billions of years ago.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[Weedlekin]

The word "Soma" dates back to at least the 10th century BCE, was probably in use before the 25th century BCE, and is thought to be a tea made from Asian ephedra (which contains alkaloids not present in American ephedra), a stimulant that constricts blood vessels and increases blood pressure and heart rate, so it has a very different effect indeed from Carisoprodol.

Archaeological evidence indicates that, unlike the version of Soma used by Zoroastrians, the ancient Aryan one that many historians think is the source for references to Soma in the Indian Rigveda probably contained cannabis and opium together with the ephedra, which may well go a long way towards explaining why some of the verses in that document are so confusing!

So I'll see your Wikipedia link, and raise you two more:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soma
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephedra

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[yakiimo]

I don't want to minimize whatever it is you have been through, but it's presumptuous of you to call everyone else's knee-jerk reactions as if you are the only person who has problems or has dealt with mental or genetic "disorders". You obviously don't have Down's Syndrome, so why do you think everyone with Down's would share your view if they were "normal"?

It sounds like you have setup a false dichotomy in your mind somehow that people are either "human" or not. Evolution has shown us otherwise innumerable times. Today's "disorder" could be tomorrow's critical survival trait.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[Tragedy4u]

Prefer never to have existed? Have you even seen someone with Downs Syndrome? Most of them have a perpetual smile on their face. When you're lacking intelligence, you're often too stupid to understand what you should worry about...ignorance really is bliss.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[orasio]

Hmmm... maybe you replied the wrong post.
I was posting in your general direction, only not so assertive, because I don't have the argumentative means, only my personal experience.

About abortion, I live in an South American country. That kind of treatment is something few can afford here. I think it comes down to money right now. The choice has to take into account whether what you can afford is a good life for the kid. It is a difficult choice, and I would understand both sides.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[Anonymous Coward]

So, if it becomes known that Down syndrome only causes mental retardation when we fail to provide the right care and education, do you still think that abortion/eugenics is an appropriate treatment???

Yes. I believe parents should have the choice to do just that. And not just legally, but have both choices be socially acceptable also.

Trying to convince somebody to keep a child or to abort it is just wrong. A child should only be brought into the world when the parents are going to happily accept and love it. So parents that discover the fetus has a disability should be given support, advice and no pressure either way.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[dissy]

And to your solution I have another, if the kid really feels that way, there is an easy way: suicide. If they felt that it was best not to have existed they can kill themselves. But honestly, I don't see any sky-high suicide rates for mentally impaired people, dying people or people with health conditions.

While possibly true, two details remain.

Abortion is legal, where suicide is illegal.

And once a person tries to kill themselves, they are locked down so they can't use their hands nor move. Most people don't consider that an improvement to their life style.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[Anonymous Coward]

but do you really think we could support even the 6 billion people we have now if all of them would have american standards of living?

Some of us would be taking a drop in quality of life for an American standard of living...

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[mcvos]

Down's is caused by an extra chromosome, it's impossible to defeat the syndrome during development without modifying the genetic code of every cell in the body.

Removing the extra gene can't be done, but for curing the symptoms (including the mental retardation), this research looks very promising. And it's the symptoms that are the problem here.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[Anonymous Coward]

For me, having kids is all about spreading my genes and my ideas. With a Down's kid I would be able to do neither and additionally my partner and I would be miserable for the rest of our lives.
I will pass on that one.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[YttriumOxide]

Uh huh. So it's more humane to say, "Well, we're pretty sure that you're not going to like your life, so we're going to take it away from you whether you like it or not."?

Before they're able to truly think or feel? Absolutely... afterwards: no, that would be barbaric... so it really comes down to at which point you consider the processes going on in a foetus to be considered "thoughts" or "feelings".

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[orasio]

Aah, I love rephrased witty comments!

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[0xdeadbeef]

How people with Down's Syndrome would respond "yes" to the question "Do you wish you born normal, like everyone else?"

How could they say that, when having that genetic defect made them who they are? To answer that question in the affirmative is to admit that they would unmake their entire lives, to never to have existed at all.

The false dichotomy is in the minds of the people who equate that reasoning with suicide, and who believe that aborting a Down's fetus is equivalent to executing a living, breathing child in the name of "eugenics".

(And wow, you make a religion out of evolution. Consider this: evolution only works by natural selection, natural selection works through the failure and death of living things. The entirety of life is an engine of suffering whose only purpose is to ensure that some sequences of molecules replicate at the expense of others. Taking control of that process, ensuring that none of Nature's "mistakes" ever suffer for their inadequacy, is a moral imperative.)

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[Gabrill]

Because Human life isn't valued in economic terms, not yet anyway. By your judgment, everything up to and including genocide would be perfectly justified as long as the balance sheet came out positive.

There is no line where the unthinkable becomes OK. If it's wrong for a million people to be killed for a reason, then it's also wrong for 1 person to be killed.

According to this http://www.aafp.org/afp/20000815/825.html diagnosis is usually done at 16 weeks at the earliest. That puts the baby squarely in the 2nd trimester, and squarely into the gray zone as to whether the baby is an individual with rights. So we are definitely not talking about "a bunch of cells".

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't like hearing the stark truth, so you call me a troll.

I've probably thought about this issue far more than the knee-jerkers responding to me. I was born with enough complications that I'd have been dead half a century earlier.

So you're saying you wish you'd been aborted because it looked like there may have been complications?

Also you know you don't have to be/get-someone impregnated there are ways to avoid making babies if you don't want them. Wouldn't it be still better to prevent murdering blastocytes/fetuses/babies _and_ not have children that are unwanted by their parents being born?

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[Golddess]

But once born, no one, not even themselves, can legally decide to end their life.

Now I'm not advocating OP's idea. Like you said, people with DS can lead happy, fulfilling lives. But on the flip side, those without it can lead miserable, empty lives. What I mean is, whether you have DS or don't have DS, does not dictate the type of life you will live.

Which is why we need to make suicide legal.

No one ever asked to be born. If someone wants to die then they should have that right, no matter their age or physical/mental condition.

And yes, I know if someone is really insistent on dying, they will complete the deed no problem. That still does not excuse all the brain-washing going on by friends/family/church/society/etc to make people believe that suicide is some sort of ultimate Bad Thing.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[pbhj]

I think it's probably pretty easy to kill yourself if that is your actual aim. Especially where handguns are readily available.

I suspect that /most/ people who attempt to kill themselves simply wish to be shown love and getting attention from people is the next best thing.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[pbhj]

Why do you think suicide is bad for the person who commits it, you don't appear to have a religion based/theistic morality yet your belief clearly presupposes some form of afterlife. Just curious.

What's worse, when you get old and possibly infirm, me telling you "your too old I'm going to kill you now" or me telling you "if you find you don't want to live anymore we can help you"?

Most folks with Downs I've known seem pretty content. I can't imagine what it would be like, but then I can't imagine what it must be like to be stupid (I mean really a complete imbecile) or to have no sense of morality. Just because I believe idiots (I mean real idiots, I'm not being pejorative) and sociopaths are lacking in some way doesn't mean I think we should mandate murdering them.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[pbhj]

There are a vast range of people with some type of autism.

We've had quite a few autistic kids (relative to what you'd expect) in our pottery studio and they generally have been happy and fun to be around but very hard work for their parents/carers!

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[mbhubbard]

You can't look into the eyes of a three year human and know what they're feeling?

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[jcnnghm]

My sister was diagnosed with Downs Syndrome before she was born, and was almost aborted. Twenty-one years later she's a healthy adult, without Downs Syndrome.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[Shikaku]

You've obviously never had a gun pointed at you. Point one at yourself. Go ahead, try it.

Why do you think military training takes so long? Self-preservation is a hell of a fear. If you are in a situation where you know you could die very easily, this hidden fear kicks in HARD.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[pbhj]

It is starting to look like mental retardation is a secondary symptom of DS, not a primary one. DS results in SPEECH disability, which messes up language development, which in turn screws up cognitive development.

And that kids is why you should get a PSP instead, yikes, who'd 've thunk!

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[pbhj]

That's why it is so important to consider the costs. Before you have sex consider - if we make a child how will I look after them and care for them for the next 18 years. If you can't or won't then don't have sexual intercourse and you won't have to.

If you really need to get your end off that bad there are other ways that will not end in conception of a child (you say blastocyte, I say prenatal child).

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[pbhj]

I've been attacked with a chisel and threatened with a knife and (separately) a brick. But then I wanted to live.

Fear has paralysed me at one time when I was rock climbing as a child. So I know something of the self-preservation instinct.

But I imagine is you can base-jump (I don't think I could) then doing it without a parachute if you wanted to die wouldn't be too hard.

Also there are gentler ways like gas (CO?) suffocation while you sleep, ...

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe not in your country, but http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthanasia_and_the_law
Also, who gives a shit if suicide is legal?
What are they going to do if you fail? Death penalty?

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[jonadab]

> There's already a treatment guaranteed to prevent the expression of these symptoms: abortion.

Did you also know that hydrogen cyanide cures AIDS? It's a proven fact, but they don't want you to know.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[Anonymous Coward]

Splitting the atom,Human flight,walking on the moon, heart transplants,etc, etc,etc, all once considered impossible.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[Anonymous Coward]

So if your parents could have known about the "complications"(it sounds like you were premature?(4lb runt comment)), they should have aborted you? That would have denied the world your alleged "high intelligence" and good, but not excelent health. What type of resources does it take to deliver and care for a premature baby. Have you repaid your debt to society, are you making the world a better place?

Also what are your credentials to determine what is "fully human" and what is your criteria?

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[Anonymous Coward]

I totally agree with the parent (abort undesireables for the betterment of society).

In fact- it's a good reason to continue to pursue the "gay genene"-- so mothers can abort their homosexual offspring as well. Think of all the discrimination they will be spared of. Homosexuals have a lower lifespan, and are statistically more likely to die of disease (aids).

We should also abort children of smokers. After all, they'll be more likely to smoke (growing up around it)-- and that will shorten their lives as well. Less lung cancer too.

We should abort children of the poor too. No one should be forced to grow up in poverty. Poor children are less nourished. Think of all the tax dollars that would save.

African American males are statistically more likely to commit violent crimes. They should be aborted as well-- it will save countless victims, and money spend on police and prisons. AND-- they have a lower lifespan than whites, and higher instances of heart disease, sicle cell anemia.

Hmm... who else can we abort?

Carbon footprint. Yes-- we all have that, right? Carbon is ruining the planet. Fat people produce more carbon. Abort them. Save the planet! Fat people get diabetes, have a lower lifespan.

So-- if we kill off all the Gays, Smokers, Black Males, and Fat People-- we'll truly have a better world, won't we?

Keep up that line of thought, and it won't take long before you and Hitler aren't that far apart.

-"An arrogant, educated idiot is still an idiot"

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[JebusIsLord]

Call me an idealist (though most would call me the opposite) but... wouldn't it be better if we could use our capacity as a "rational species" to handle our own population issues? I'm hoping we can. If not, we'll hit the point where deaths = births fairly quickly anyhow. No need for your plague - this'll be equally unpleasant.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[stranger_to_himself]

But once born, no one, not even themselves, can legally decide to end their life. Now I'm not advocating OP's idea. Like you said, people with DS can lead happy, fulfilling lives. But on the flip side, those without it can lead miserable, empty lives. What I mean is, whether you have DS or don't have DS, does not dictate the type of life you will live. Which is why we need to make suicide legal. No one ever asked to be born. If someone wants to die then they should have that right, no matter their age or physical/mental condition. And yes, I know if someone is really insistent on dying, they will complete the deed no problem. That still does not excuse all the brain-washing going on by friends/family/church/society/etc to make people believe that suicide is some sort of ultimate Bad Thing.

I don't like the idea of suicide being legal or accepted for two main reasons.

First is that people often want to kill themselves because of badly managed depression or psychosis, and these people can and often do recover.

The second is that quality of life is a function both of yourself and your environment and crucially personal and social expectations. So if somebody's quality of life is poor or they feel they are a burden and it is socially acceptable for them to kill themselves, then it may become a social imperative, at least in some cases. Suicide being acceptable will also change the threshold on what constitutes a 'reasonable' quiality of life.

Having said that, I understand there a very few people for whom suicide is probably a reasonable option. I don't know what the answer should be in those cases.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[arb phd slp]

Yeah, sorry about that. I was mostly agreeing with you and adding on.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[spazdor]

Aah, I love it when everyone piles onto a loosely themed comment thread!

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[steveo777]

Using your logic (and the GP), we can also go on to destroy the parents of said deformed cells because of their likeliness to produce another set of deformed cells. It may sound like an extreme but it's also the next logical step. Sure, the next step could try to prevent said people from reproducing, but we all know that would never work seeing as the words "unwanted pregnancy" are all too common.

I'm all for birth control (pre-conception) but abortion never sits right with me. I also believe that there are a LOT of people who are far too stupid and/or irresponsible to be parents, and therefore should not be allowed to become them, but as I said that would never work. So it's always going to be an iffy situation. I hate to see kids suffering or in poverty. I also think that killing them off before they get a chance is wrong. If I could, I'd find them a home where they'd be loved and cared for.

So one way to look at it is 'population control' where everyone had better prove their worth to an arbitrary, human, and probably very corrupt board of overseers who picks if you're good enough to live or not. Another way to go would be to continue being a culture of compassion and mercy and do everything within our power to educate people so they quit making stupid decisions, make a difference, and contribute positively to society. Either method is a little far-fetched and extreme, but I'd rather prove my worth in a society that wants everyone to thrive, rather than the one that must regulate what gets to thrive.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[JeanPaulBob]

There's already a treatment guaranteed to prevent the expression of these symptoms: abortion.

Oh, I know the every sperm is sacred types will whine about this, but consider the desires of the child. Wouldn't you prefer never to have existed if you knew you would be subjected to mental retardation, health complications, and a short lifespan?

Abortion doesn't prevent the expression of those symptoms. Contraception would.

Abortion doesn't prevent you from ever having existed. It ends your existence.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[morari]

That would only further remove survival of the fittest from this equation. I'd be much more interested to see people actually have to provide for themselves. My guess is that at least half of the world's population would simply curl up and die without public water and prepackaged meat.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[Anonymous Coward]

Incidentally I'd be interested to know how you get the over-populated by 2-5 figure. I'm not arguing with it, I'm just curious.

That's a long-standing one. In order for everyone on the planet to live in the same conditions as people in Europe, we need roughly 2.5 Earths in resources. For everyone to match US levels of consumption, it would be over 5 Earths.

There's lots of places that quote the figure, but the guys at Ecofoot seem to be doing a good job of keeping them up date.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[Anonymous Coward]

I think the quoted overpopulation figure is just a result of calculating the ecological footprint needed for a decent standard of living for one human (given current technology), multiplying it by the number of people, and comparing that to the amount of resources actually available. If you raise the bar, and try to give everyone a true first world standard of living, the maximum population is closer to a half billion.

I believe that the problem is severe, but while the neo-eugenicists try to paint themselves as realists, they're just taking the lazy way out. Easier to kill off the "wasteful" people -- a designation that somehow always excludes the proponents -- than to put a brake on their own wasteful activities.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[Anonymous Coward]

"At its coldest, its not hard to judge absolute value -- what is the benefit a birth will bring to society versus its cost."

Fine then. Kill everyone in nursing homes, psychiatric wards, drug clinics, prisons, etc- because clearly they don't "contribute to society" and rationally not worth keeping around. I'm not one for Godwinning a thread, but your views are borderline Nazi. Seriously.
(PS: CAPTCHA? "prejudge")

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[Anonymous Coward]

I take it you are a farmer or hunter, then? If not, perhaps you've come to realize the value of something called "society." But then, if you had, we wouldn't be discussing this topic.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[Anonymous Coward]

Nobody said that this level of ignorant bliss was a goal to which one must aspire, you idiot. Someone simply pointed out that "potential sadness" should be thrown out as a reason to kill those with Downs in the womb.

If that were a valid reason to kill a living being, it wouldn't be illegal to murder people who might come into personal contact with the likes of you.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[Anonymous Coward]

Your example corpses aren't happy. Unlike Downs babies, they are incapable of it. They are potential soil, with very little potential for much else, especially not within society.

Downs babies are potential contributors to society. They are also potential drains on society. But guess what - this is true of ALL human babies.

Sorry for picking on your bad little joke.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[mi]

which is fitting if they can see Russia from their house.

86.9% of pro-Obama voters, thought Sarah Palin actually made that claim. In reality, it was Tina Fey, who said it, while playing Sarah Palin on TV.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[yakiimo]

Thinking you can "take control" of evolution shows you really don't understand it. Whatever we do is part of it, not controlling it. It's not a religion. It's simply an emergent process of life. If whatever we do "works" we survive and thrive. If not, we don't make it. There is no stepping outside of the process.

As for your comment, I'm really not sure what you are getting at. Others on here have said it better than I. Despite your protests to the contrary, you are basically espousing eugenics which is one thing we could choose to do as a country or species. I personally think it's a dumb idea applied as broadly as you seem to suggest as it will limit our gene pool to what we currently perceive as "good" and leave us with little room for adaptation in unforseen future events.

There must be a philosophy with a name attached to it that puts the same emphasis you do on suffering, but I wouldn't buy it anyway.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[mi]

Wouldn't you prefer never to have existed if you knew you would be subjected to mental retardation, health complications, and a short lifespan?

Why not apply the same logic to incurable (or hard-to-cure) deceases developed later in life?

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[Anonymous Coward]

Haha, yeah. I'm always jealous of Down Syndrome people. They're always smiling and so happy. But that's why you don't get Down Syndrome people who are amazingly creative, because it takes depression and suffering to get to a point where you can make something so beautiful...

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[Doc Ruby]

No, that statistic comes from a completely discredited and blatantly made-up poll made up to create and promote a movie attacking Obama.

Sarah Palin said that she was a foreign policy expert, especially on Russia, because Russia can be seen "from Alaska". In fact, a deserted coastline of Russia's can be barely seen sometimes from a deserted island in Alaska that Palin has never been to, that no Alaska governor has ever been to. Which is why she's mocked for saying that "she can see Russia from her house", because that's only slightly stupider than what she did say. And Palin said it to try to get into the White House for at least 4 years, not just to get to the next commercial break.

But I can see why someone who's so politically stuck in Republican media attacks would call the actual large majority who voted for Obama "pro-Obama voters", as if "Obama" is an issue and not just the president-elect. Because I watched you Republican liars say far stupider things than either that moronic Republican poll or that idiotic Republican VP candidate, for years. And it looks like not even getting power smacked out of your hands has taught you anything.

So keep it up. You "anti-Obama" people are doing a solid job showing yourselves irrelevant to running a country. Making Saturday Night Live funny again, even if only briefly, seems just about the right speed for you and your delicate heroes.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[Anonymous Coward]

There's already a treatment guaranteed to prevent the expression of these symptoms: abortion.

You sir, disgust me. My brother has Downs and is by far the best of - my four - siblings. He's 22 and is working in my company as a carpenter. He'd be living a "normal" life except for his being deaf too. That has been his main handicap. He's great fun to be around. He's always making people laugh and making faces and gestures behind the backs of bad customers. He's far better for socialising with than most people I've met. Hell, he was getting with the ladies properly when he was 15.

Would I choose to abort my own children if I found out they had Downs? After my experience with those who have it, no way. Almost all other Downs kids I've met have been great fun and always put a smile on the faces of those around them. Unless they drank all the beer in the fridge, that is.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[slash.duncan]

Most folks with Downs I've known seem pretty content.

Actually, more than content. From all I know of the syndrome (which as I'm sure has been pointed out repeatedly already, I got here from a link and haven't read much yet, is more properly "Down Syndrome", no posessive), it's as if fate/$DEITY/whatever (heredity, but anyway) gave them the blessing of happiness in return for what it took away. Despite all the problems they live with that you or I would never choose to have, they tend to be some of the most consistently happy people around and in general tend to spread happiness around to those they are with as well (at least once people get over being uncomfortable around the person and get to know them).

There's certainly some yin/yang balance to be appreciated in that.

Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy

[bright-light]

You arrogant ass. To even begin to believe that another human can understand the consequences and potential benefits that could be offered by a different genetic split or different chemical firing in a brain is absurd. NO human being has the intelligence to understand what could be born from any embryo. Whether viable to you or not. The truth is people look to sacrifice life to protect their own small existence. How many examples do you need to see to realize that significant advances have come from some of the most unlikely of candidates?

Not quite comprehending

[sleeponthemic]

The article use of the pregnant woman knowing and preventing. It isn't a bad summary and the article doesn't seem to make clear.

I was looking for some sense that knowledge of the condition might produce some automatic results from the mother's body. But, that was before I realised it was impossible to communicate with mice. Atleast, without a babelfish.

Also

[Chuck Chunder]

Shooting people in the head means they won't get cancer!

I'm not sure what your experience is but I've met and known quite a few people with Downs Syndrome who seemed happy. Certainly as happy as the rest of us at any rate.

It seems rather ridiculous to assume their lives aren't worth living. What next, deciding a childs life isn't going to be worth it because they aren't as sexy as Hugh Jackman or hung like Ron Jeremy?

Re:Also

[glittalogik]

If being hung like Ron Jeremy meant I had to look like Ron Jeremy, I'd probably pass.

Re:Also

[spazdor]

What next, deciding a childs life isn't going to be worth it because they aren't as sexy as Hugh Jackman or hung like Ron Jeremy?

You mean, you aren't? And yet you keep pressing on everyday, you brave little soldier...

Re:Also

[orasio]

Well, if my children were not to be sexier than Ron Jeremy, I would consider abortion.

Re:Also

[Anonymous Coward]

Defending people from abortion who already exited the womb means absolutely nothing.

Re:Also

[Anonymous Coward]

phew... at least I would have been safe...

Re:Also

[Anonymous Coward]

Ron, is that you?

Re:Also

[discord5]

Shooting people in the head means they won't get cancer!

I smell a nobel prize idea here...

Re:Also

[Anonymous Coward]

invented by shampoo

Re:Also

[dissy]

What next, deciding a childs life isn't going to be worth it because they aren't as sexy as Hugh Jackman or hung like Ron Jeremy?

I sure know that's why *I* killed myself!

Re:Also

[ciderVisor]

What next, deciding a childs life isn't going to be worth it because they aren't as sexy as Hugh Jackman or hung like Ron Jeremy?

How many children do you know that are hung like Ron Jeremy ?

And how did you find out, eh, EH ?

Re:Also

[Anonymous Coward]

So being hung like Ron Jeremy would be cool-- but looking like him (obviously) wouldn't.

You failed to consider the wide variety of "temporary" companionship he has received over the years... And he actually gets paid to do it.

The secret to life, my friends, is doing what you love and getting paid for it!

Re:Also

[Joce640k]

Sure they're happy, they don't know any better. Question is... are the parents?

Trading two normal people's happiness* (and resources) for one Down's person's happiness doesn't seem like a fair trade.

*Or even three people's happiness - a normal child can be happy too!

Good news everyone!

[neuromanc3r]

US researchers have found that prenatal treatment for Down syndrome works in mice.

Today is a happy day for all mousekind!

Re:Good news everyone!

[Cassius Corodes]

If only we knew this before, Mickey Mouse wouldn't have been such a retard.

Re:Good news everyone!

[glittalogik]

Dammit, he could have been Dr. Mickey Mouse =(

Re:Good news everyone!

[TeknoHog]

Don't you mean Minnie, she's the one who's fucking goofy...

Re:Good news everyone!

[Anonymous Coward]

It seems Minnie and Goofy had some secret relationship I don't know of...

Re:There's already a treatment...

[QuantumG]

I thought Americans liked retards. I mean, y'all voted for one, twice.

Moral Atrophy, not a moral trophy

[DynaSoar]

Wouldn't you prefer never to have existed if you knew you would be subjected to mental retardation, health complications, and a short lifespan?

"Good point. You may go." -- Your friends, Orange Roughy (140 years), Bristlecone Pine (4500 years), Galapagos Tortise (150 years).

To preempt complaints regarding non-human intelligence, we defer to Douglas Adams on the subject of humans, dolphins and digital watches.

Apparently, the Eugenics Movement lives

[DesScorp]

There's already a treatment guaranteed to prevent the expression of these symptoms: abortion.

I know I'm violating Godwin's Law here, but in this case, to hell with Godwin. Nice answer there, Mein Heir; tell us, what are your exacting standards for the rest of humanity? Who else gets the axe in your perfect world?

Who the hell are you to tell people what kind of contribution they can make in this world? Who the hell are you to determine who gets to live and who has to die without even a chance for life? I've never in my 40 years met a family that regretted their Downs child. I've never met a family that didn't consider those children a blessing.

These kids may not be capable of everything we are, but every Downs kid I've ever met is a far better human than you are. You're a rotten little man.

Re:Apparently, the Eugenics Movement lives

[Shados]

What you've never met isn't people who regretted their childs. That is actually extremely common. What you have never met, is people who, in this polically correct society (and in other society that has similar levels of peer pressure), will admit to it, even to their closest confidents.

Considering your stance on the matter, which you seem to hold pretty dear from the wording you use (and you are fully entitled to it, I'm not saying you're wrong or anything), I doubt anyone would EVER dare tell you that they regretted their child, down's syndrom or not.

To give a different point of view, at the risk of getting flamed to hell and beyond, I really, really despise kids (don't worrie, I'll never have to make my significant other go through an abortion... snip snip and all, thats all taken care of). Like, really, REALLY hate kids. Everyone around me knows my stance on this. Because of this, I had a LOT of mothers and families tell me in secret how they wish they never had their kids. In certain cases, that they didn't even love them, but that they still did what they could so it wouldn't show. None of those were disabled child's families, either. And to make things clear, I don't live in a ghetto, and the people I'm talking about came from all kinds of families, from poor to rich, etc.

Only in Wonderland does all families consider their kids blessings, ESPECIALLY kids with issues. They may not admit it, they may WANT to love them. That doesn't mean they do.

Re:Apparently, the Eugenics Movement lives

[4D6963]

Oh drop the fucking violins. It's exactly like saying that anyone who has a child doesn't regret having them, despite having considered abortion. That doesn't mean that you should get rid of abortion just because "you'll see in the end you'll love your child". Of course people love their children, it's (due to) an evolutionary trait, that doesn't mean that people want a disabled kid but that they just don't know it yet. If you stopped making it sound like these are the bee's knees, everyone knows that raising such a child is very difficult. Plus, parents tend to outlive such of their offsprings, which is something no parent wants. Anyone who wants to make such a child must have twisted morals and a twisted sense of self interest.

Re:Apparently, the Eugenics Movement lives

[Anonymous Coward]

Not only are you violating Godwin's Law, it doesn't even make any sense bringing it up, you fucking douche. Nazi Germany was hardly the only country.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenic#United_States
The United States were the first country to introduce compulsory sterilization and had plenty of them long into the 60's.

AC because of spent modpoints

Re:Apparently, the Eugenics Movement lives

[Anonymous Coward]

Mein Heir

Really? At least do a fucking google search, asshole.

Re:Apparently, the Eugenics Movement lives

[Anonymous Coward]

that's because people have children because that's what everyone does, the marry because that's what everyone does, its the programming of the society, marry, have sex, have kids, die. Most people like only the second, but do all four because they think they want to.

Re:Apparently, the Eugenics Movement lives

[Leafheart]

Only in Wonderland does all families consider their kids blessings, ESPECIALLY kids with issues. They may not admit it, they may WANT to love them. That doesn't mean they do.

I have a relative with Down's. She is 22 now with the mind of a 14 year old. Now, she is damn happy, as she was in a good part of her life. Happy, but depressed. Knowing how difficult everything was, trying to understand and not been able to rationalize why, and more important, why her.

But sometimes it is not about the kids, it is about the parents. You have no bloody idea how hard it is, how tiresome and how horrible things can be. You may believe that there is this lovable all-powerful man that sent this child to test you, your fate, and if you fail you go to this very miserable place, but I don't. And given the choice, and more important the knowledge that my child would be born with down, or any other very serious handicap I would ask for my gf\wife\whatever to abort. If she didn't want, well, she would have to raise the child alone, because that is something I don't want to pass through again.

Re:Apparently, the Eugenics Movement lives

[ciderVisor]

Most people like only the second, but do all four because they think they want to.

Wait.....most people die because they think they want to ? Does that mean that if I really, really don't want to die I don't have to ?

Re:Apparently, the Eugenics Movement lives

[Anonymous Coward]

So if someone tells you they don't regret having their kids you can't believe them - they are lying to save face (somehow). But if someone tells you they do regret it then they are clearly telling you the truth?

Geeks tend to believe they can always tell if someone is lying - that's not true, sorry.

As a singleton people will tell you that they wish they were still single and that they wish they were still free of the burdens of committment - that's just what they do. It's a socialising technique they're trying to project that they are like you and share your views - that you shouldn't discount them for being different. There may also be a little bit of "the grass is always greener" thinking too.

Ever had a bad day? Ever had a thought that if only things had turned out different everything would be so much better? It's no different if you're a parent except that I truly believe that if those parents, who apparently confided in you, were to lose their kids then they would be devastated.

I've considered walking out on my kids and wife* in the past but I can truly say that if I die tomorrow the most fulfilled part of my life will have been with them. Humans are complex beasts aren't they.

---
* = hence posting anon! I don't think it will edify anyone to tell them at this time, I'll tell my kid when he's old enough.

Re:Apparently, the Eugenics Movement lives

[Reziac]

It can also be extremely unfair to the other kids, who get shunted out of the way and feel ignored, as the parents are forced to lavish extra care on the disabled child.

So... as you imply, it's not entirely about the happiness of the *disabled* child. That child also negatively impacts its parents, siblings, other relatives, and society, and does so for a long time before it contributes back to society (IF it is ever able to).

I've known happy, productive disabled people, and I've known disabled people who were nothing but a burden -- if not to themselves, then to everyone around them. How is that any more fair, given the impact on the whole family and on society at large, than the alternative of aborting the child in the first place?

And of course, it's not fair to the disabled kid, who at best knows they're not right and can't be like other kids, and at worst may suffer a great deal (consider chronic conditions like cystic fibrosis) and enjoy very little of their life.

Aside from all these social and familial considerations, I worry about the gene pool. Defective infants used to be exposed (left in a remote place, for the gods to decide their fate). Now, we save them at all costs, and they grow up to perpetuate their genes. What is this short-circuting of natural selection doing to our gene pool in the long run? (As a livestock breeder, I can tell you -- eventually it will be hard to find NORMAL individuals to breed from, and then we're fucked.)

Re:Down's syndrome and abortion

[kramulous]

Or, prevent births from those deemed unfit.

Yeah, if this was applied to mental retardation...

[Anonymous Coward]

If abortion was applied to mental retardation, you wouldn't be here.

Joe the Retard

[Anonymous Coward]

They should have done this for Palin's grandson. You know, Branch or whatever his name is.

Re:Joe the Retard

[Anonymous Coward]

Trig. His name is Trig.

Kinda like calling a kid with no arms and no legs "long jump".

Re:Joe the Retard

[dreamchaser]

It's also her son, not her grandson as GP spewed.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Tag: FALCON PUNCH

[Anonymous Coward]

n/t

Re:There's already a treatment...

[JosKarith]

I'm afraid you missed your opportunity on that one by a good 15-20 years mate...

Disabled does not mean "Better off Dead".

[mumb0.jumb0]

I'm shocked by how many people have said "it's cheaper just to abort". Since when did human life become so cheap? Or to those that have said "the child would rather have not been born than to be born with Down syndrome": how can you possibly speak for that child? Who are you to make that life and death decision on their behalf? Disabled does not mean "better off dead". Did nobody else see the article about Stephen Hawking on the front page today? This is about preventing or reducing a disability. It's about giving a person a better chance at life. Think of it this way: if you were going to be born with a malformed left arm, but it could be rectified in the womb, what would you choose? Death or a normal arm?

Re:Disabled does not mean "Better off Dead".

[Middle - Adopter]

Actually, Stephen Hawking was born healthy. He developed Lou Gehrig's disease in his 20s. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Hawking#Illness

Re:Disabled does not mean "Better off Dead".

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a side-effect of the pro-abortion agenda. "It ain't human 'till the pregnant sluts of the world say so."

Re:Disabled does not mean "Better off Dead".

[bright-light]

The point is very simple however... Lou Gehrig's may be caused by defective DNA, if we can see that in the womb why not make the decision to Kill the child before it has to suffer in life... The issue is we are not giving the child the option but instead we can apply a decision for it with our infinite wisdom and decide for that child's life. LIFE IS LIFE. Why have people become so callous to killing children? Is no one else appalled by the ease in which this is happening? People just simply are not willing to take responsibility for their own actions. The US is absolutely not over-crowded, though that doesn't mean that there are not areas that have more population density than others. Move to Wyoming and tell me it's 2-5x over population. Then again the same people who are willing to kill Children, and deciding which Children are worth while to be birthed, are the same who believe that the Earth is melting from Human's meager footprint of C02. It's unreal.

We're all retarded

[TheLink]

Pet dog:

Happy? Usually unless badly mistreated.
Stupid? Yes.
Short lifespan? Yes.
Health complications? Yes for many breeds.
Requires lots of care and attention? Typically.

If you're stupid enough, you might not even know what's the big deal about being stupid.

What really would be sad would be something like in the story "Flowers for Algernon", but that already kind of happens to people with Alzheimers or age onset dementia.

Lastly, if Bush really does get away with what he has done then he's smarter than most of the US citizens.

The original arguement

[phorm]

Actually, I think the original argument around this wasn't that they *should* commit suicide, but rather that if those with Down's Syndrome etc were extremely unhappy with life then the stats for suicides/attempts among that group would be rather high. As it's not, perhaps they don't find life all that bad...

My cat seems happy...

[Joce640k]

But I think most parents are aiming for a person, not a house-pet.

Chris Burke

[mcvos]

A friend told me about a young man with Downs syndrome who is adept at arithmetic. He lives alone and works as an accountant. Not bad at all for someone with his condition.

Ever heard of Chris Burke? Quite a lot of people would be jealous of accomplishments like that.

Re:Chris Burke

[Anonymous Coward]

Also, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Sackter
He didn't have Down's Syndrome, but I wanted to mention him because of the unbelievably stupid abortion comments on here. It is appalling.

Consequences

[Anonymous Coward]

There is another consequence to 'curing' someone of Down Syndrome in the womb, if they grow up as a normal healthy person and have kids those kids will have a much higher rate of down syndrome.

If we keep treating the symptoms and not actually remove this problem from the genes eventually no one will be able to have normal children without the intervention of medicine.

Re:Consequences

[Anonymous Coward]

"There is another consequence to 'curing' someone of Down Syndrome in the womb, if they grow up as a normal healthy person and have kids those kids will have a much higher rate of down syndrome" How do you know this? Do you have any facts to back this up? So what, you have a cure?

I can tell from your statement:"If we keep treating the symptoms and not actually remove this problem from the genes eventually no one will be able to have normal children without the intervention of medicine" you don't know jack about DS. 95% of DS kids are caused by a genetic error when the sperm and egg start dividing. Its caused by the parents genes in less than 5%. People with DS have been around since prehistoric times and you can't just weed out the carriers of the genes

Re:Also .. avoid procreation!

[pbhj]

Well they will look like you so ... probably best to avoid conception. That may or may not be a problem, you're on slashdot so I'm guessing not.

</joke>

Re:Suck em out

[pbhj]

Isn't an abortion a lot cheaper? I mean, with these genetic misfits being somehow a part of society, we could be doing some damage to our gene pool.

Erm, in case your remark isn't facetious: individuals with Down's Syndrome are typically sterile.

I'm not joking/flaming here but I always wondered about people with glasses - years ago they would have died of hunger unless someone took pity on them. They'd have struggled gathering food or making tools, etc.. Yet it seems those with poor eyesight amount to about 95% of the geek genepool. Look around at your next LUG meeting / Math lecture / whatever ...

Shouldn't we be letting poor traits like bad eyesight die out if we wish for the race to survive?

This creates a new problem

[Anonymous Coward]

Doesn't this just move the problem?

Now we need to figure out how to get people
back in the womb.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re:Also .. avoid procreation!

[orasio]

I am sexier than Ron Jeremy, and their mother is way hotter than I.

Moral Philosophy

[bill_mcgonigle]

The GP is absolutely right -- we as a society (particularly in the US) fail miserably at making rational judgment calls because of a misguided and unjustified assignment of irrational amounts of value to a bunch of cells.

The thing is it's not purely a rational decision. Well, not in a single case.

We're founded upon the idea that "all men are created equal, endowed by our creator with certain inalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

If you take the purely utilitarian approach in every individual case, you wind up with an amoral society that does itself harm in the overall. Rather, we take the position that we protect the weak at the small immediate expense of the society, for larger overall benefit.

It's really weird to hear folks with a scientific background argue that an embryo isn't alive but a yeast is.

Re:Suck em out

[VeNoM0619]

You don't seem to understand the difference between bad eyesight, and unfit for work eyesight.

Everyone who had bad eyesight back in the day, could still cook/clean/farm/make tools/clothes (perhaps a lesser quality than an eagle eye tailor).

Nowadays 'better' eyesight has become a requirement for newer types of jobs. Reading small print on a computer screen. Just because people wear glasses does not mean they NEED them. You were right, it was a "struggle" but still manageable. Besides, a physical property of a human being should not remove someones intellectual ideas.

Re:Suck em out

[pbhj]

You don't seem to understand the difference between bad eyesight, and unfit for work eyesight.

No I simply didn't make a definition for what I consider bad eyesight - I was thinking unable to see to carve wood, chip stone, etc., for tools; unable to see clearly enough to spear fish; unable to see clearly enough to differentiate edible and inedible berries. That sort of thing. That is, unfit.

Everyone who had bad eyesight back in the day, could still cook/clean/farm/make tools/clothes

Those are the people with good eyesight, IMO. The eagle-eye tailor has near-perfect vision.