Slashdot Mirror


Details On Worldwide Surveillance and Filtering

An anonymous reader writes "Help Net Security is running an interview with Rafal Rohozinski, a founder and principal investigator of the OpenNet Initiative, which investigates, exposes and analyzes Internet filtering and surveillance practices all over the world. Rafal provides insight on the process of assessing the state of surveillance and filtering in a particular country and discusses differences related to these issues in several regions, touching especially the United States and Europe. In the US, censorship is more difficult to implement if for no other reason than the court systems offer greater protections for freedom of speech. However, in both places surveillance is on the rise particularly as law-enforcement agencies become more adept at working in the cyber domain."

125 comments

  1. Just Remember. by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 5, Insightful

    When we do it, it's to protect the children from porn and terrorism. When the godless commies do it, it's just plain evil.

    1. Re:Just Remember. by NoYob · · Score: 3, Insightful
      When we do it, it's to protect the children from porn and terrorism.

      You forgot pedophiles! The internet is filled with old creepy men who want to have sex with young girls and boys! I saw it on the news!

      --
      It's NOT me! It's the meds! I'm on 1000mg of Fukitol.
    2. Re:Just Remember. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      Really? I thought those was US congressmen!

      Shennanigans in the cloakroom, Shennanigans in the bathroom, Shennanigans on the internet just seems logical!

      They want the cameras so they can spy on us naked! Those pervs!

    3. Re:Just Remember. by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 3, Funny
    4. Re:Just Remember. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

      The chans are filled with old creepy men who want to have sex with young girls and boys!
      Fixed... no charge.

    5. Re:Just Remember. by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 1

      Yeah but it is easy to spot them, because they all wear light colored jeans, a hooded sweatshirt, a baseball cap with the hood over it, sunglasses, and drive around in a white van!

      --
      Palm trees and 8
    6. Re:Just Remember. by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      phew.. For a minute there, I thought I was in trouble or something. Thank god my van is blue.

      I'm not a pedophile but I was thinking I just got labeled as one when I shovel the snow in the winter time or go hunting from my blind.

    7. Re:Just Remember. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      Hopefully the next time they talk to Jesus, he tells them to stop using table-based layouts. It's just unchristian.

    8. Re:Just Remember. by tcopeland · · Score: 1

      > Thank god my van is blue.

      I refer you to suspiciousvans.com. As the first image says, "Free Candy!"

    9. Re:Just Remember. by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      I had a good laugh at that site. Some of those vans make you wonder though.

      My van isn't pictured there so I guess I'm good. Mine looks a lot like this one except it has a sliding door on the side and a TV antenna in the shape of a V on the top of the cab portion in front of the two front windows of the raised portion. Oh and my van is blue and gold, the guy who owned it before me was a West Virginia football fan and had it custom painted for that reason.

    10. Re:Just Remember. by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 1

      Not a creepy enough van. A creepy van is usually a single, solid color, with no decoration and few windows. Some rust is usually present. The color white is preferred, although other colors are possible. The back should contain random boxes of junk and something to tie a rope to, and room for at least one adult and one child.

      --
      Palm trees and 8
    11. Re:Just Remember. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      phew.. For a minute there, I thought I was in trouble or something. Thank god my van is blue.

      You do realize you just confessed to wearing light colored jeans, a hooded sweatshirt, a baseball cap with the hood over it and sunglasses? In public no less!

      You know, if I were a profiler, with all that it would be enough for me that it's a van. At least tell me the van hasn't got tinted windows?

    12. Re:Just Remember. by techno-vampire · · Score: 1
      They want the cameras so they can spy on us naked! Those pervs!

      That's right! There's noth8ing worse than naked pervs sitting in front of their computers watching surveillance tapes.

      --
      Good, inexpensive web hosting
    13. Re:Just Remember. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Really? I thought those was US congressmen!

      no, no one wants to have sex with congressmen.

    14. Re:Just Remember. by WizzardX · · Score: 1

      Clearly we need a Shenanigans Handler

    15. Re:Just Remember. by DigiShaman · · Score: 2, Funny

      no, no one wants to have sex with congressmen.

      That's because they already fuck us over. Why would we want to go through that again?

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    16. Re:Just Remember. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are legitimate reasons to dress like that. If you ever needed to shovel snow, you will know that a regular winter coat will cause you to get too warm and start sweating so you put on a sweatshirt and a hoody. The ball cap stop snow from falling into your face and the glasses tames the bright sunlight reflecting off the snow. The light colored jeans are just faded blue jeans that you use for working around the house so you do not ruin a good pair.

      When hunting, it's sort of the same. You sit in a camouflaged blind, you have a ball cap on to break up your face, you wear a veil around it that you can see through, place some high contrast polarized shooting glasses (looks just like sun glasses) on to take the glare off and protect your eyes, and bundle up in a camouflaged hoody to keep the bugs and wind off your neck.

      And yes, the rear windows in the van are tinted. That's pretty much standard for conversion vans. I guess if you were a profiler, you would be able to adjust the location and use of the dressing and consider it's usage as apposed to someone looking like that on a summer day in the middle of LA or NYC. BTW, I believe a lot of photos of the Uni-bomber looked like that except he didn't have a van.

    17. Re:Just Remember. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are legitimate reasons to dress like that...

      Dude, that was all meant to be humorous. Please don't feel like you need to defend your choice of clothing. You're fine wearing light colored jeans even when you aren't shoveling snow.

      And yes, the rear windows in the van are tinted.

      I already knew your van had tinted windows, that's why I asked. You see I am a profiler. ;)

    18. Re:Just Remember. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How the hell has this post been modded +5 Insightful??? +5 Funny or +5 Yeah Right would be more appropriate...

    19. Re:Just Remember. by L4t3r4lu5 · · Score: 1

      One of the fastest loading big-name websites I've seen in a while... Nothing wrong with tables as far as I'm concerned.

      Might be a little Web1.0, but at least they render correctly across all platforms.

      --
      Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
    20. Re:Just Remember. by Dan541 · · Score: 1

      Unless they are dressed like Santa.

      --
      An SQL query goes to a bar, walks up to a table and asks, "Mind if I join you?"
    21. Re:Just Remember. by siloko · · Score: 1

      well in europe we are one step ahead - Paedophiles and politicians are the same thing

    22. Re:Just Remember. by ObsessiveMathsFreak · · Score: 1

      The chans are filled with creepy men who want to have sex

      Your fixed, has been fixed.

      --
      May the Maths Be with you!
    23. Re:Just Remember. by WeeBit · · Score: 1

      "The chans are filled with old creepy men who want to have sex with young girls and boys!
      Fixed... no charge."

      The chans are filled with old creepy men, and women who want to have sex with underage girls and boys!

      And... I fixed yours.

    24. Re:Just Remember. by PitaBred · · Score: 1

      Wait... you're my creepy uncle?

    25. Re:Just Remember. by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Dave? Is that you? Hey, tell your mom I no longer live in that van down by the river.

    26. Re:Just Remember. by PitaBred · · Score: 1

      Ok, that IS creepy. My name is Dave :P

    27. Re:Just Remember. by mhajicek · · Score: 1

      You forgot pedophiles!

      So we do it to protect the pedophiles?

    28. Re:Just Remember. by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      I got your name from your home page. I didn't mean to creep you out. It was all in jest and humor.

      If we can laugh with ourselves, laughing at others is much more enjoyable.

  2. Oblig XKCD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    Oblig XKCD

    Now and then, I announce "I know you're listening" to empty rooms.

    If I'm wrong, no one knows. And If I'm right, maybe I just freaked the hell out of some secret organization.

    1. Re:Oblig XKCD by QuantumG · · Score: 2, Funny

      http://xkcd.com/538/

      I think that's more appropriate.

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    2. Re:Oblig XKCD by Nadaka · · Score: 1

      That wrench probably cost at least $50

    3. Re:Oblig XKCD by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

      Who knows, maybe if times get really tough the CIA will have to start shopping at Harbor Freight...

    4. Re:Oblig XKCD by lysergic.acid · · Score: 2, Informative

      That's a funny strip, but it doesn't really apply to mass surveillance/filtering. It's actually a lot cheaper to build a (multi-) million-dollar supercomputer to filter/analyze day to day internet traffic than to actually send goons out with $5 wrenches to beat the information out of hundreds of millions of people (on a daily basis).

    5. Re:Oblig XKCD by failedlogic · · Score: 1

      Or this one: http://xkcd.com/565/

    6. Re:Oblig XKCD by dkf · · Score: 1

      It's actually a lot cheaper to build a (multi-) million-dollar supercomputer to filter/analyze day to day internet traffic than to actually send goons out with $5 wrenches to beat the information out of hundreds of millions of people (on a daily basis).

      They mostly do traffic analysis, watching not what you're saying but where you're saying it and who you're saying it to, and such things are much harder to defeat (TOR is immediately suspicious, and apparently fairly easy to watch in practice). They only send the goons out when they really want to decrypt a message, and by that point they're probably doing a lot of physical surveillance too.

      --
      "Little does he know, but there is no 'I' in 'Idiot'!"
    7. Re:Oblig XKCD by cerberusss · · Score: 1

      It's actually a lot cheaper to build a (multi-) million-dollar supercomputer to filter/analyze day to day internet traffic than to actually send goons out with $5 wrenches to beat the information out of hundreds of millions of people (on a daily basis).

      False dichotomy, if I ever saw one. Typically your average slashdotter thinking in black and white.

      Why not have the cost savings of the multi-million-dollar supercomputer, and enjoy going out and whacking people with $5 wrenches?

      --
      8 of 13 people found this answer helpful. Did you?
    8. Re:Oblig XKCD by dkleinsc · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but sending out the goons to hit people is more fun.

      --
      I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
    9. Re:Oblig XKCD by PitaBred · · Score: 1

      Harbor Freight is awesome for tools like that. When you just need something big and heavy and you don't care about it breaking, you can get them for half the price or less ;)

  3. Tor, email anonymizers and encryption by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The sad thing is, we can thwart these efforts, and we have been able to thwart these efforts for a long time. The majority of people, however, do not care as much about thwarting efforts at surveillance as they do about convenience. It is too inconvenient to carry a thumb drive with some software and crypto keys around*; the extra steps of inserting that device into a computer and running the software on it is more than most people are willing to deal with.

    * Yes I know that this is not as secure as keeping your crypto keys on your own hardware, but it goes a hell of a lot further than any current methods do, and would require a lot of resources on the part of the government to break across the board (e.g. a targeted attack would work, but if they are going to the effort of targeting an individual they are going to break the crypto anyway, perhaps using the drugs+wrench method).

    --
    Palm trees and 8
    1. Re:Tor, email anonymizers and encryption by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      > The majority of people, however, do not care as much about thwarting efforts at surveillance as they do about convenience

      That, or they just don't know or understand the issues. To most people, computers are magic.

      But yeah, I agree with your basic point. We already have the ability to make this a non-issue, and we're not doing it.

    2. Re:Tor, email anonymizers and encryption by NoYob · · Score: 3, Insightful
      I think as far as the surveillance thing goes it's a non-issue to many people: something that paranoid people worry about or "if you do nothing wrong you have nothing to worry about mentality"

      Even then, convenience, as the parent mentioned, is a huge factor. How many of you set up user accounts on family member's machines, telling them "Do not surf the net or do anything else with the admin account EXCEPT install software YOU choose or other administrative functions!" only to have them use the admin account anyway and catch one of those malware programs that installs behind the scenes - all because there's an app, and there's always at least one fucking app that cannot run unless it's run by an admin account!? (I'm looking at you Kodak!)

      --
      It's NOT me! It's the meds! I'm on 1000mg of Fukitol.
    3. Re:Tor, email anonymizers and encryption by Sloppy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      To most people, computers are magic.

      And that's why unauthenticated encryption should be the default, for everything (email, web, etc). That's something people can do without understanding anything, and frustrates surveillance immensely, even if it doesn't rigorously prevent it. And then, if they care and can learn, they can securely exchange keys to get authenticated encryption.

      Sure, the masses would be MitM vulnerable, but right now they're even worse off, and can be effortlessly sniffed.

      Shame on the FF3 team.

      --
      As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
    4. Re:Tor, email anonymizers and encryption by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Setup an admin account that THEY can't access. A bit more annoying, but once they have all the programs they need installed and running, it's less trouble.

      Fucking app won't run if it's not an admin account? Then don't install it.

    5. Re:Tor, email anonymizers and encryption by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 1

      Which is why OTR is so cool. It gives a discrete warning about being unauthenticated, and it integrates seamlessly with IM. Unfortunately, even OTR is too inconvenient for most people I have met, and they fail to understand why there is any benefit to using something that is not as "pretty" as the default AIM client (thank you AOL for screwing that one up for us).

      --
      Palm trees and 8
    6. Re:Tor, email anonymizers and encryption by QuantumG · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Sure, the masses would be MitM vulnerable, but right now they're even worse off, and can be effortlessly sniffed.

      Wow, I must be incredibly uninformed about what is possible with unauthenticated encryption.. please, tell us how to do unauthenticated encryption that requires a MitM attack rather than just passive sniffing to defeat.

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    7. Re:Tor, email anonymizers and encryption by huge · · Score: 1

      Diffie-Hellman key exchange is considered to be secure against eavesdropping but vulnerable to MitM.

      --
      -- Reality checks don't bounce.
    8. Re:Tor, email anonymizers and encryption by maxume · · Score: 1

      Could you throw out two or three sentences on how to passively sniff an unauthenticated https channel, I can't seem to wrap my head around how to do it?

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    9. Re:Tor, email anonymizers and encryption by Sloppy · · Score: 1

      please, tell us how to do unauthenticated encryption that requires a MitM attack rather than just passive sniffing to defeat

      Person A: My public key is keyid 0xdeadbeef.

      Person B: My public key is keyid 0xf00ff00f.

      Person A encrypts the session key for what intends to say to person B, with keyid 0xf00ff00f. Person B encrypts the session key for what he intends to say to Person A, with keyid 0xdeadbeef.

      Your assignment: intercept the conversation. Yes, you can do it with a MitM and give both these people your key, or you can break into their houses and steal their private keys. Those approaches will work, but they carry high risk of getting caught. How can you do the job passively?

      --
      As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
    10. Re:Tor, email anonymizers and encryption by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The trouble with encrypting the web is not a client side issue. It stems from the fact that encryption takes compute cycles and servers don't like to give those away if they don't have to.

  4. Obligatory by cmseagle · · Score: 1
    1. Re:Obligatory by daveb · · Score: 2, Interesting

      If you go to that link, mouse over the comic to see the ACTUAL actual reality of the situation http://xkcd.com/538/

  5. Moving by interkin3tic · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Argh! This country and it's lack of privacy! Big government! I've had it with america! Land of the free indeed! I'm moving to europe!

    How do the United States compare to Europe in regards to surveillance and filtering?

    Certainly there seems to be more momentum these days towards regulation in Europe. This is prompted by concerns over child welfare and exploitation, and also the perceived danger from radical militant groups. Europe also tends to be more of a surveillance society, particularly the UK. In the US, censorship is more difficult to implement if for no other reason than the court systems offer greater protections for freedom of speech.

    Wait... we're doing something right? Yes! WOO! AMERICA NUMBER ONE! LAND OF THE FREE!

    [Making fun of myself here, I've often read articles on the sad state of privacy in the US and thought "I quit, totally moving at the next available opportunity." If I'm being honest, I would have to describe myself as a fairweather fan of the US.]

    1. Re:Moving by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      living in europe, this already happened a couple of times for me.
      I immediately wanted to leave, only didnt know where to go.

  6. "They" don't give a damn about the law by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    In the US, censorship is more difficult to implement if for no other reason than the court systems offer greater protections for freedom of speech.

    In the US, there are big telecommunication carriers who illegally spy on American citizens, and they go scot-free. The law is a weak line of defense when the government colludes against it. When the "leaders" have set their minds on something, it's going to happen. Laws will be changed, circumvented and ignored. There must be a strong factual defense line. In the case of communication that's cryptography, privacy enhancing routing protocols, redundancy and networks in the hands of the people.

  7. Unnecessary surveillance? by AHuxley · · Score: 4, Informative

    Its amazing how many state an federal police task forces just view web 2.0 sites.
    Sit in chat rooms, forums and social networking sites trying to connect nerds and geeks in pics to real life.
    The interesting part is the push for IP to home address without warrant in Canada and no court needed sneak and peek 'try before you raid' bureaucratic options.
    My view is the deep fear of random flash mobs on any given topic. The more cops can just watch, the more they can build connections into protest groups.
    The problem is they are still playing from the Stasi handbook.
    If you have so many people willing to face jail, Iraq fresh "cops", baton charges, gassing, tasering, FIT units, Long Range Acoustic Device (L-RAD), no fly lists for life and military fusion state and federal databases, its too late ;)
    If they want control back, do a cold war USA or West Germany.
    Sedate the peasants with low wage jobs, cheap cars, short cheap holidays, cheap housing, free speech for all and the dream of a better life.
    If they are chasing beads and mirrors all day, no need for tanks in the streets.

    --
    Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    1. Re:Unnecessary surveillance? by TheVelvetFlamebait · · Score: 1

      Yes. Let us sedate the peasants by giving them what they want! We have discovered what's important to them and now we are giving it to them! Now we are in control, so long as we cater to their needs! How terribly EVIL of me! Mwhahahahaha!

      --
      You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
    2. Re:Unnecessary surveillance? by westlake · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Sit in chat rooms, forums and social networking sites trying to connect nerds and geeks in pics to real life.

      There are times when I wonder if the chat room nerd has any anchorage in real life.

      That is the danger: Caught in the web [Oct 1]

      My view is the deep fear of random flash mobs on any given topic. The more cops can just watch, the more they can build connections into protest groups.

      The geek as revolutionary is ripe for satire.

      I'm not convinced he could draw a crowd if he were handing out free beer in Munich during the Oktoberfest. Free Software Foundation - Windows 7 Sins

      Sedate the peasants with low wage jobs, cheap cars, short cheap holidays, cheap housing, free speech for all and the dream of a better life. If they are chasing beads and mirrors all day, no need for tanks in the streets.

      It's really quite easy to spot the losers in the American political game: Embittered, cynical, and with bottomless contempt for the masses.

    3. Re:Unnecessary surveillance? by andhar · · Score: 1

      The 'Windows 7 Sins' stunt was pretty retarded, but the guy (I admit I don't know who he is, and what he's known for) in the interview afterwards is really articulate and makes a very good argument against proprietary software. No beard, no stink of geek, just a smart guy with a cause.

      Maybe someone out there can edit out the giant garbage can?

      --
      Vaya con huevos, my darling.
    4. Re:Unnecessary surveillance? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's really quite easy to spot the losers in the American political game: Embittered, cynical, and with bottomless contempt for the masses.

      And equally easy to spot the winners: Embittered, cynical, and with a bottomless pit of lies for the masses.

    5. Re:Unnecessary surveillance? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In this game if you're not a winner, you're a loser bro.

      So you figure yourself a winner?..

    6. Re:Unnecessary surveillance? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The geek as revolutionary is ripe for satire.

      Yeah, true. It's a sad state of affairs, but it's true.

      Except guy is not talking about geeks as revolutionaries. Normal people use these tools now. A cross-section of the total population uses these tools now. The power of monitoring them is much greater today than it was even a few years ago, as a result.

      Embittered, cynical, and with bottomless contempt for the masses.

      Those people are the winners in the capitalist system. They didn't get rich and powerful on the strength of their respect for the masses; they got rich and powerful by cynically exploiting them.

    7. Re:Unnecessary surveillance? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's really quite easy to spot the losers in the American political game

      It's not whether you win or lose: it's how you play the game.

  8. Nice job going for the cheap +5 by Savior_on_a_Stick · · Score: 1, Insightful

    ...knowing that most slash dotters are consumed with rabid anti-us sentiments, and don't have the attention span to read more than a one-liner.

    The reality isn't what you imply.

    The US has taken a few steps backward since 9-11 - but it still has greater protections over free expression than any other country of which I am aware.

    1. Re:Nice job going for the cheap +5 by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It has those protections because people are so sensitive about those backward steps. Once people stop caring so much (which may have already happened with most people), those freedoms will be eroded.

      --
      Palm trees and 8
    2. Re:Nice job going for the cheap +5 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      >> The US has taken a few steps backward since 9-11 - but it still has greater protections over free expression than any other country of which I am aware.

      You must not be aware of at least six other countries then, since the US ranked 7th over-all in the 2006 State of World Liberty Index (www.stateofworldliberty.org), and one should reasonably doubt the USA has moved up the scale since.

    3. Re:Nice job going for the cheap +5 by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 1

      I take it you haven't visited Canada or Sweden in this millennium?

    4. Re:Nice job going for the cheap +5 by Savior_on_a_Stick · · Score: 4, Informative

      Both Canada and Sweden have significant restrictions on what can be said in public.
      They do this is the guise of protecting against "hate speech."

    5. Re:Nice job going for the cheap +5 by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

      You should be careful to distinguish between "rabid anti-us sentiments" and "expressions of displeasure when the US implementation fails to match up to the US ideal". There are a few vague, surface level, similarities; but the difference counts.

    6. Re:Nice job going for the cheap +5 by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 4, Interesting

      As opposed to the complete joke that is FOIA in the US, and the Patriot Act? The various porn regulations in the US, capriciously decided on a state-by-state basis? The DMCA? Software patents? Disney and the insanely extendend copyright laws? The very strange regulations in the US about publication of encryption technologies? "Hate speech" is an understandable concern both for crime prevention, and for free speech reasons. But in my opinion as an outsider, both Canada and Sweden are noticeably better about it.

      For US citizens, the McCarthy era is still in living memory, for some of us. So are the 1960's and their repression of anti-Vietnam speech. I like to think we've progressed, and the Internet is very useful for getting around the current round of restrictions. But make no mistake, they still happen, sometimes in new guises.

    7. Re:Nice job going for the cheap +5 by TheVelvetFlamebait · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's interesting that you perceive the parent post as an attack on your country, not on a general mentality.

      --
      You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
    8. Re:Nice job going for the cheap +5 by jhol13 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Swedish army (FRA) is snooping practically every packet going out of Finland.

      BTW, Slahsdot does not have ssl connection ...

    9. Re:Nice job going for the cheap +5 by sumdumass · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Wow, I can't believe you got modded up for that snibbling rant. All you did was criticize some programs way out of context as if you didn't understand them and bark about something that happened, was ended, and everyone agrees should never happen again.

      The 60's are over, we have all moved on and no one things they should return. McCarthyism is long dead and will not resurrect in out lifetime and it's pointless to drag out FOIA, DMCA, Software patents and so on. The DMCA and Software patents do not limit speech, they limit what you can do with other people's speech. The FIOA is just rubbish, it's more then most countries have. And the Anti-Vietnam war speech often consisted of quite a bit of inflammatory speech and acts that provoked the other side. I mean calling soldiers baby killers, spitting in their faces, throwing pigs blood on them when they return, getting doped out of their mind and ignoring the fact that 90% of the soldiers were compelled by law to server their country during the war time. This doesn't even begin to mention the bombings by the anti war groups, the YAF who promoted anarchy and wondered why the man came down on them after they broke a dozen laws or the riots they created across the country like the big one in Detroit. Hell, a lot of the protesters provoked the other side just to get headlines when they broke and retaliated.

    10. Re:Nice job going for the cheap +5 by slashqwerty · · Score: 4, Insightful

      McCarthyism is long dead and will not resurrect in out lifetime

      Perhaps not in the form of protecting us from communists but it will undoubtedly come back in one form or another. With complacency like yours it will come back even quicker.

      The DMCA and Software patents do not limit speech

      The DMCA makes it illegal to publish an entirely open source DVD player. It effectively grants a limitless patent to the DVD CCA which controls who can make a DVD player and under what conditions. Software patents limit my ability to publish ideas I developed on my own having never heard of an obvious submarine patent that will bar me from publishing my software.

      Hell, a lot of the protesters provoked the other side just to get headlines when they broke and retaliated.

      What makes you so sure the protesters did that? COINTELPRO was an FBI program in which agents infiltrated protest groups and started riots to make the group look bad, and to give the authorities an excuse to interfere with the group's free-speech rights.

    11. Re:Nice job going for the cheap +5 by sumdumass · · Score: 0, Troll

      Perhaps not in the form of protecting us from communists but it will undoubtedly come back in one form or another. With complacency like yours it will come back even quicker.

      Not at all. There has been ample opportunity for it since then and it didn't happen. Stop being afraid of the dark. Keep your eyes open so you do not trip over something but quit being afraid.

      The DMCA makes it illegal to publish an entirely open source DVD player. It effectively grants a limitless patent to the DVD CCA which controls who can make a DVD player and under what conditions. Software patents limit my ability to publish ideas I developed on my own having never heard of an obvious submarine patent that will bar me from publishing my software.

      No it does not. The DMCA prevents you from publishing an entirely open source DVD player that uses other people's technology. You can make an open source player that plays DVDs that does not use their encryption. It won't play commercial DVDs until they start using the open scheme but that's not my problem. Also, software patents do no stop you from publishing your ideas. They stop you from publishing other people's ideas. I don't agree with them, but your acting like you are the one who developed the tech which is patented and your not otherwise a software patent would be a non-issue for you. And yes, I have heard of submarine patents. Those are problems with standards boards more so then with patents in and of themselves. But they do not stop you from publishing your software, they stop you from creating and publishing software using their patented technology. In short, everything you just complained about revolves around you not thinking it's fair that you can't take someone elses ideas and products and copy them.

      What makes you so sure the protesters did that? COINTELPRO was an FBI program in which agents infiltrated protest groups and started riots to make the group look bad, and to give the authorities an excuse to interfere with the group's free-speech rights.

      In video footage of protests, it's clearly the entirety of the protesters not just some agents. Even if agents were instigating the violence, the rest of the crowd was happily joining in. If you help rob a bank because a FBI agent starts doing it, you are no less of a bank robber then if you had taken the actions entirely on your own. If you haven't watched the footage were in the middle of it then I'm not sure why you feel competent enough to talk about it. Christ, it's only some of the most documented times in the recent history of the US. And if you were part of it or seen the footage, then you wouldn't have made the statement you did.

    12. Re:Nice job going for the cheap +5 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > In short, everything you just complained about revolves around you not thinking it's fair that you can't take someone elses ideas and products and copy them.

      That couldn't be more wrong. Copying their ideas would mean copying their source code. He doesn't have access to that.
      All he wants to do is implement HIS OWN ideas. But because somebody else may have had that idea before him (without his knowledge) he isn't allowed to use his own ideas. In a country that justifies software patents with the right of the creator on his own ideas this whole system is highly hypocritical.

    13. Re:Nice job going for the cheap +5 by Omestes · · Score: 1

      the McCarthy era is still in living memory

      Wait... isn't that making a come-back? It seems a large percentage of people in America today (at least the vocal ones) would like McCarthy to be raised from the grave as a big bad Obama/50+% of the population smashing zombie. Hence tons of people bashing "socialism" as an evil thing, and not just a mere political view different than their own, not to say liberalism (more "socialism"), secularism (the first amendment is socialism), and the typo-become-slander "democrat" party (those legally elected "socialists").

      So are the 1960's and their repression of anti-Vietnam speech.

      As was the early 2000's anti-Iraq speech. I remember when being against our president, or his purely political war was considered to be Anti-American. I remember stories of critics being put on no-fly lists, and other watch lists. How times have changed.

      Granted most of these aren't actually political edicts enforced from on-high, but they show the sentiment is still very alive. So we still have a VERY steep slope, since a large-ish population of the US would like wholesale censorship and political repression.

      I'm not sure the extent of anything though, since our government is a sneeky bunch of spies still, who are still very likely to be closely monitoring any potential opposition to the dominant ideology. And it is ignoring the Judicial Branch, who frequently decides that our freedoms are subject to corporate whims (soft fascism, as someone here on /. eruditely put it earlier). This doubt also incorporates our copyright and patent fiascoes that are on-going. It is increasingly hard to draw a media/corporation/government line when it comes to rights violations.

      Obviously, I'm not disagreeing with you, just adding some more steam to the boiler.

      Footnote: I made my post a bit antagonistic to Republicans, and the previously ascendant Conservatives, Democrats and Liberals, though, are not free from guilt either. The current Obama health care issue is a good example of Moderate Liberal Status-Quo-ers trying to quench debate.

      --
      A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
    14. Re:Nice job going for the cheap +5 by Omestes · · Score: 1

      McCarthyism is long dead and will not resurrect in out lifetime

      Watch the news, and count the times that someone dismisses a purely political idea as "socialism", or how often people argue that our duly elected officials are "socialists". It might not be policy, but the sentiment is still there.

      --
      A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
    15. Re:Nice job going for the cheap +5 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The US has taken a few steps backward since 9-11 - but it still has greater protections over free expression than any other country of which I am aware.

      Then you are totally oblivious. There are many countries that has greater protections over free expression than USA. What annoy us most is that US try too force their brand of censorship down our throats.

      There were also a lot of countries that had greater levels of free expression than US even before 9-11 (I assume you mean that small terrorist attack on World Trade Center, not the greater acts of terrorism in 1973 (only a small number of people killed that date, but more then 40.000 random civilians was held as hostage that day and tens of thousands was tortured and killed in the terror that followed) or 1982 (more then 3000 civilian refugees slaughtered), which also led to increased censorship within USA, especially since US supported the aggressors). Some of those countries has since then lost some of the legal protection of free expression, BECAUSE of threats from US about what would happen if they didn't.

      From the top of my head: Norway, Sweden, Netherlands, France (yeah, really), Switzerland. None of those countries is perfect regarding free expression, but they sure as hell is better then USA.There are probably a lot of countries outside Northern Europe too, but as an Northern European I'm totally oblivious too those, just as an USArian is oblivious to everything outside USA ;)

      Then there is also the small obstacle of making yourself heard. Many countries just don't protect free expression, they also try actively too create equal opportunities for all those different opinions too get heard.

    16. Re:Nice job going for the cheap +5 by Teun · · Score: 3, Insightful
      The US might not be the worst of surveillance nations compared to the amount and depth of surveillance in some other places.

      But I find the US none the less more scary for the ways they back up this surveillance.

      As a single example, can you name a single western style democratic country where the government can legally set up and maintain something like Gitmo?

      And the lack of recourse, for example no or hardly no limits on the retention of data or (well communicated) ways to be informed about what agencies store about you and how to appeal.

      Or the way pieces of sensitive legislation are sneaked through by tacking it to big non related bills.

      Don't get me wrong, I really like many aspects of the US but when it comes to perceived security risks it's still exhibiting 'Old West' policies of 'shoot first, talk later'.

      --
      "The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
    17. Re:Nice job going for the cheap +5 by Killjoy_NL · · Score: 1

      Try and teach Fox that :(

      --
      This is the sig that says NI (again)
    18. Re:Nice job going for the cheap +5 by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Listen, the right or wrong of software patents or copyright aside, the only thing he is refrained from here is the involvement of ideas and technology originating with other people. It's not a matter solely of his own ideas so do not pretend otherwise. And claiming to want to implement a completely open source DVD player when the DVD standard is someone else idea as well as his wanting to implement it directly is nothing but indicative of that concept. If anything is hypocritical, it would be ignoring that very fact in order to pretend a different scenario is unfolding.

    19. Re:Nice job going for the cheap +5 by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Disagreement in ideology is not McCarthyism. I suggest you spend a little more time understanding what McCarthyism actually is/was. I'll give you a hint, it's government sponsored or pressured and not the free expression of ideologues by idiots. The fact that people are elected while being called socialist or that ideas from elected officials can be called socialist is living proof that McCarthyism is long dead.

    20. Re:Nice job going for the cheap +5 by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 1

      Go watch Fox News. The attitudes that senator McCarthy embodied and fostered are alive and well, and frighteningly accepted by some listeners. And dear god, if you actually read the Patriot Act, you see the fostering of exactly the same sort of star chamber and secret political monitoring "to stop terrorism" that McCarthy rode on "to stop Communism".

      I'm not saying it's gotten as bad as it was in McCarthy's hey-day, but given the AT&T fiber-optic spying and similar behavior, and the clear use of domestic and foreign intelligence and security resources for political uses (especially under Bush and Cheney), it's hard to ignore the continuing risks. (Go review what happened to the protesters of the Republican national convention in 2004 for examples.)

    21. Re:Nice job going for the cheap +5 by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Go watch Fox News. The attitudes that senator McCarthy embodied and fostered are alive and well, and frighteningly accepted by some listeners. And dear god, if you actually read the Patriot Act, you see the fostering of exactly the same sort of star chamber and secret political monitoring "to stop terrorism" that McCarthy rode on "to stop Communism".

      Nonsense. The big difference is that Terrorism isn't legal and no one with a sound mind thinks it should be legal. The programs on fox news or any other news show is nothing more then ideologue bullshit spouted by idiots with no real power over anyone or any establishment.

      I'm not saying it's gotten as bad as it was in McCarthy's hey-day, but given the AT&T fiber-optic spying and similar behavior, and the clear use of domestic and foreign intelligence and security resources for political uses (especially under Bush and Cheney), it's hard to ignore the continuing risks. (Go review what happened to the protesters of the Republican national convention in 2004 for examples.)

      Let's see, where to start. ATT's Fiber optic spying was because of a 1994 law called the Communications Assistance for Law Enforcement Act. The FISA bungle that is the NSA TSP isn't McCarthyism at all unless you can somehow justify terrorism. But then I would suggest that says more about you then the government.

      Finally, what spying was used for political gain? Sure, government agents infiltrated political protest organizations and gathered intelligence in order to prevent them from committing crimes. I'm not sure why you are pretending it only happened to republican protesters as it's been happening to democrat rallies for the longest time. In fact, the free speech zones were started by democrats not wanting a repeat of the Chicago riots during their national convention in 1968. Again, the biggest difference is that it's being used to prevent illegal behavior which was illegal long before terrorist or your disdain for republicans or fox news ever existed.

      Your trying to make something of nothing and it isn't working to well for you. Perhaps you seriously don't see the difference which is why I suggest you get more then the cliff notes version of McCarthyism.

    22. Re:Nice job going for the cheap +5 by dkleinsc · · Score: 2, Insightful

      McCarthyism is long dead and will not resurrect in out lifetime

      Absolutely correct. Communism was a somewhat defined enemy that more-or-less went away after the USSR collapsed. On the other hand, "terrorism" is a much more handy nebulous enemy that can be used to ruin people's careers, freeze their assets, prevent them from traveling, and so forth, without the pesky problem of having the enemy ever disappear. Even better, we can just round up people (including US citizens) who have backgrounds and names that sound Muslim with the choice of imprisoning and possibly torturing them for a few years without charges, sending them to a foreign country to be tortured, or just killing them.

      Your right McCarthyism is dead. The various fascists in government gotten much better about how to engage in political repression of the citizenry.

      --
      I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
    23. Re:Nice job going for the cheap +5 by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 1

      Ahh, yes. It's to stop the terrorists and block crimes. That's why we violate the NSA charter (by doing domestic spying), the Constitution (by monitoring without court order or any evidence of wrong-doing). And the infiltration was to "stop crimes". R-i-i-g-h-t. And declaring a "free-speech zone" is one thing, secret monitoring and infiltration is another. That's straight out of the 1960's Vietnam era playbook, and McCarthy eara as well.

      And it's done "to stop crime". Sure, that's the excuse given. But please name a _single prosecution_ or a single crime actually stopped by either of those efforts. Then tell me how it's "different" from McCarthy era wiretaps. The difference is one of degree, not of kind.

    24. Re:Nice job going for the cheap +5 by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Nonsense. Communism is an ideology where terrorism is a crime that's illegal in almost all countries if not all. And no, they cannot just round people up and make them disappear. It happened unjustly to all of what, ten people who got released because they didn't just disappear.

      there is a difference between communism which is a political ideology and illegal methods used to push any ideology or agenda. I'm sorry that your not thinking straight enough to see that. I could go on about some other things you chose to comment on but I think enough has been said.

    25. Re:Nice job going for the cheap +5 by dkleinsc · · Score: 1

      Acts of terrorism are illegal. That's not what I'm complaining about. What I'm complaining about is the use of an outside enemy to justify mistreatment of citizens. And terrorism is a much better outside enemy than communism for that purpose, because it can never be completely defeated. Even if Al Qaida, Hamas, Hezbollah, etc were completely removed from existence, those who wanted to repress people here in the US would simply say that the terrorists had gone into hiding and occasionally uncover a "sleeper cell" to justify the continuing intrusion into their citizen's lives.

      In addition, you'll notice I said "acts of terrorism" are illegal, not "being a terrorist". That's because it's possible that someone could be a member of a terrorist organization without engaging in or actively and knowingly supporting terrorism. In a free society, crimes are something you do, not something you are.

      --
      I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
    26. Re:Nice job going for the cheap +5 by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Ahh, yes. It's to stop the terrorists and block crimes. That's why we violate the NSA charter (by doing domestic spying), the Constitution (by monitoring without court order or any evidence of wrong-doing).

      You need to slow down a bit and stop dragging ignorance into your conversation. First, a NSA charter has little to no legal meaning. I'm suspecting that your talking about the NSA's TSP which was within it's charter, just not the technical language of the FISA laws. However, FISA is questionable on the subject and there is good merit to the idea it wouldn't have applied because the president has constitutional authority to collect national security information. Your also completely wrong about the constitution and monitoring without a court order. There has always been ways to monitor citizens, directly or indirectly, through telecoms or traditional bugging devices without a warrant. The only constitutional protections you gain is against unreasonable searches, not all searches.

      But back to the president's constitutional authority, the biggest argument in favor of this is that congress has historically believed the president had constitutional authority to conduct surveillance for national security means. And this belief existed well before Bush or anyone was in office. Public law 90-351 or the Omnibus crime control safe streets act 1968 had this idea written in it. Section 2511 part 3 specifically inferred a constitutional authority when it states

      Nothing contained in this chapter or in section 605 of the Communications Act of 1934 (48 Stat. 1143; 47 U.S.C. 605) shall limit the constitutional power of the President to take such measures as he deems necessary to protect the Nation against actual or potential attack or other hostile acts of a foreign power, to obtain foreign in-. telligence information deemed essential to the security of the United
      States, or to protect national security information against foreign intelligence activities. Nor shall anything contained in this chapter be deemed to limit the constitutional power of the President to take such. measures as he deems necessary to protect the United States
      against the overthrow of the Government by force or other unlawful means, or against any other clear and present danger to the structure or existence of the Government. The contents of any wire or oral communication intercepted by authority of the President in the exercise
      of the foregoing powers may be received in evidence in any trial hearing, or other proceeding only where such interception was reasonable, and shall not be otherwise used or disclosed except as is necessary to implement that power.

      This was further backed up by court decisions that assumed the president had the constitutional authority to do just that- without a warrant. In fact, a warrant wasn't even required until 1968 when the courts finally extended the fourth to telecommunications.

      And the infiltration was to "stop crimes". R-i-i-g-h-t. And declaring a "free-speech zone" is one thing, secret monitoring and infiltration is another. That's straight out of the 1960's Vietnam era playbook, and McCarthy eara as well.

      Lol.. Nope. If an organization is open to the public, then the public can join whether they are police, FBI, or not. Or do you somehow think they are walled off from society and deserve their own little special circles and clubs. I hope not because it would be a hell of a lot worse then your pretending it to be.

      And it's done "to stop crime". Sure, that's the excuse given. But please name a _single prosecution_ or a single crime actually stopped by either of those efforts. Then tell me how it's "different" from McCarthy era wiretaps. The difference is one of degree, not of kind.

      A single prosecution of a crime tha

    27. Re:Nice job going for the cheap +5 by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Acts of terrorism are illegal. That's not what I'm complaining about. What I'm complaining about is the use of an outside enemy to justify mistreatment of citizens. And terrorism is a much better outside enemy than communism for that purpose, because it can never be completely defeated. Even if Al Qaida, Hamas, Hezbollah, etc were completely removed from existence, those who wanted to repress people here in the US would simply say that the terrorists had gone into hiding and occasionally uncover a "sleeper cell" to justify the continuing intrusion into their citizen's lives.

      First of all, what special insight do you have to know that "those who wanted to repress people here in the US would simply say that the terrorists had gone into hiding"? I mean did someone tell you this? And if so, then why haven't you outed them as someone who wants to repress people?

      Second, what mistreatment of citizens? All of this crap is in your head. There has been only one or two citizens mistreated because of the war on terrorism. It's not as your implying. Hell, even the "those who want to repress" statement is all in your head.

      In addition, you'll notice I said "acts of terrorism" are illegal, not "being a terrorist". That's because it's possible that someone could be a member of a terrorist organization without engaging in or actively and knowingly supporting terrorism. In a free society, crimes are something you do, not something you are.

      Someone could be a member of a gang that robs banks but that doesn't make him innocent of the crimes if he didn't actually rob the banks. What connects them to the crime is their material support and engagement. Funding and planning terrorist activities or even bank robbers who commit terrorist acts or rob banks is a serious crime. For you to suggest otherwise is complete nonsense. Someone who is a member of an organization the funds or supports illegal activities will be judged by their involvement. It is possible that non-terrorist belong to terrorist groups without knowing the connection to terrorism and as far as I know, they aren't prosecuted. But when you know your group membership supports terrorism, there is just no excuse.

    28. Re:Nice job going for the cheap +5 by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 1

      Oh, dear. Ignoring their own charter and the problems that creates, I leave to people who understand the idea of keeping the NSA out of domestic security for excellent reasons.

      And your listing of "70 people prosecuted"? Wrong. That's 70 people arrested. do you see a prosecution there? Me, neither. And your "8 more here"? Please actually go and _read_ the articles you cite. And look for signs of an actual prosecution, rather than merely an arrest. The "misdemeanors" you cite also show little sign of prosecution, because the people arrested were protesting, not being violent. The "assassination" business is even more ludicrous: a terrifying situation which was discovered because the man was driving erratically, and you're trying to pretend that domestic surveillance somehow is related.

      Faithful Slashdot readers, am I just feeding a troll here? Or is my exposition of this sort of ludicrous claim useful to the rest of you?

    29. Re:Nice job going for the cheap +5 by Omestes · · Score: 1

      Disagreement in ideology is not McCarthyism.

      I never stated it is. I merely mean that the same sentiment is still very alive and well, and because of this there is a not insignificant pool of people who would LOVE to have that certain senator from Wisconsin back. Our Government hasn't, yet, starting blocking dissonance, but this doesn't mean that the potential and the will aren't out there still.

      Though one could argue, that if you replaced "International Communist Conspiracy" with "International Terrorist Conspiracy", where "terrorist" is very loose word that often amounts to "disagreement with US policies or interests", we would pretty much have the same thing.

      Also, if you pay attention to what the crazies are saying, a lot of them are questioning the legitimacy of democratically elected officials because of the the letter after their name. To these people, political ideology is more important than democracy, which might not be "McCarthyism" as such, but is still damn dangerous.

      --
      A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
  9. In Australia? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm in Australia. How come I can't get the original article ?

  10. I am Jesus by TheVelvetFlamebait · · Score: 2, Insightful

    and I command you to stop using table-based layouts!

    Hey, if you can't disprove it, it must be true!

    --
    You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
    1. Re:I am Jesus by AmberBlackCat · · Score: 1

      It's no better to say "if you can't prove it, it must be false".

    2. Re:I am Jesus by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

      Given the approximate truth/falsity ratio of the set of all statements, "If you can't prove it, it must be false" is one hell of an improvement.

      Better still, of course, is some fully developed framework for provisional inference from limited information; but that takes actual effort.

    3. Re:I am Jesus by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      If our ancestors stuck to "If you can't prove it, it must be false" they'd have died out a long time ago.

      There were lots of "true enough" important beliefs that they could not possibly prove scientifically at that time.

      So they've been using "adhoc frameworks for provisional inference from limited information" instead.

      e.g. Winter comes every X moons, and is likely to come again, we better store up food for it.

    4. Re:I am Jesus by TheVelvetFlamebait · · Score: 1

      It's actually much better to say that "if you can't prove it, it must be false". Better still, "if you can't prove it, then for all intents and purposes, it's false".

      Out of a universe (or beyond!) with unfathomable possibility, it's much, much easier and much, much more reliable to live by confirming truths than eliminating falsehoods.

      And besides, how exactly can we eliminate Jesus as a falsehood?

      --
      You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
    5. Re:I am Jesus by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      >>>It's no better to say "if you can't prove it, it must be false".

      Actually the way that scientific and logical inquiry works, the saying would be, "If you can't prove it, there's a possibility it might still be true, but until that happens it will be ignored." For example the theory that flies spontaneously generate from meat. There's a still a possibility that is true, but it's never been proven, so that theory has fallen to the wayside.

      Plus it's been replaced by a much better theory (flies lay eggs; eggs hatch new flies).

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    6. Re:I am Jesus by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      >>>Winter comes every X moons, and is likely to come again, we better store up food for

      Actually that was a provable theory. Observe; record; notice a pattern; predict winter will arrive in a repeating cycle. That's primitive science.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
  11. nor a credible citation by Savior_on_a_Stick · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "The State of World Liberty Project was founded in 2006 by Nick Wilson, an activist and co-founder of the Libertarian Reform Caucus, an organization working to turn the United States Libertarian Party into a viable political party."

    Their compiled list is nonsensical at best, and relies primarily on nebulous ratings of "economic freedom" from well known right wing political groups - like the Heritage Foundation.

    Also note, that if you discount the economic figures, the top dozen or so countries are scored closely enough to lack any statistical significance.

    And the economic figures are all based on taxation - since libertarians have never met a tax they liked.

    Further - without being intimately familiar with the culture of each country, I could not honestly evaluate them - and it's glaringly obvious that no effort was made to do so on the site you are promoting.

    So in summary, you're flinging out weak, biased data to support a conclusion you've reached without making any reasonable effort to ascertain the actual facts.

    I still remain unaware of any specific country with greater overall freedom than the US.

    Nothing you've posted could rationally be expected to alter that fact.

    1. Re:nor a credible citation by QuantumG · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Tell it to the Dixie Chicks.

      Of course, now you're going to say that it wasnt the *government* which tried to censor them, it was just people who didn't like what they had to say. Sigh. A nation that turns to censorship every time someone says something they don't like is destined to become a police state.

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    2. Re:nor a credible citation by icebike · · Score: 1

      Since when were the Dixi Chicks censored?

      Last I saw they were still getting gigs in liberal haunts all over the world, and even on American TV.

      True, truck drivers might be tempted to launch a beer bottle over their heads should the mistakenly take a gig in some locales, but that hardly counts as censorship, just an opinion. More likely, the bar owner would cancel the gig for lack of an audience.

      We could of course expect everyone to continue to pay admission, and sit quietly and listen politely to people they don't like, singing songs that make them angry. That's how its done in the rest of the world, I' sure.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    3. Re:nor a credible citation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Switzerland.

    4. Re:nor a credible citation by QuantumG · · Score: 0

      Short memories. There was a time when the Dixie Chicks were barred from radio, television, etc. They made their own movie instead, and stores wouldn't stock it. So now that you've had a refresher course of recent history, maybe you'd like to think about what I said. If it was a government that was doing this you'd say it must be communist China. No way would the US Government ban someone from the airwaves for having a political opinion. And you'd be right, it wasn't a government action. However, the people of the US are quite willing to "shut up" those who say things they don't like. The censorial actions of these network affiliated scumbags is perfectly acceptable behavior in your fine land of the free. Apparently when they hear something they don't like your fellow countrymen no longer think people should be free to speak.

      And that's how you get governments that think the same. Of the people, by the people and for the people.

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    5. Re:nor a credible citation by icebike · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Ok, I see your point. We don't run out and buy the records of people we don't like, we don't go to their movies so that's censorship?

      You sir are a raving loon!

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    6. Re:nor a credible citation by QuantumG · · Score: 2, Informative

      Wow.. either you're incredibly naive or you're just a trolling idiot. The point is not that people who disagreed with the Dixie Chicks refused to buy their records.. that's exactly what George W. Bush said and why everyone with a clue hung their head in shame. The point is, people who *agreed* with the Dixie Chicks were unable to buy their records or their movies or hear them on the radio or see them on tv, because the people who disagreed had arranged for them to be banned. Surely you remember all this? It really wasn't that long ago.

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    7. Re:nor a credible citation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Netherlands ?

    8. Re:nor a credible citation by Neoprofin · · Score: 1

      If U2s next album was an ode to pederasty and the rise of the Fourth Riech I doubt that Best Buy would stock it, but there's absolutely nothing stoping them or groups that profess cold blooded murder, drug abuse, overflowing the government, or just about anything else for that matter from producing and distributing their thoughts. Unpopularity is not censorship, and an artists right to say whatever they want does not trump the right of anyone else to say exactly what they think with their wallets.

    9. Re:nor a credible citation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They were perfectly free to speak however they wanted just no one wanted to listen. Free speech just allows you to say what you want it doesn't guarantee you an audience to listen to you.

    10. Re:nor a credible citation by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      >>>And the economic figures are all based on taxation - since libertarians have never met a tax they liked.

      Not true. They like "use taxes" where you pay for a service when you use it. They cite the road/gasoline toll and the stamp tax as near-ideal forms of taxation. You use the service - you pay. You don't use the service - you don't pay. They consider that fair and reasonable.

      And while some libertarians are almost anarchist in their views, they are still saner than those on the extreme-left who think they are entitled to sit on their asses all day, not do an hour of work, and raid their neighbors' wallets for cash, food stamps, or other freebie services. Now THAT'S radical. I don't think I'm entitled to buy myself a Civic and pass the bill to my neighors..... and yet these nutjobs on the left think that would be okay ("a car is a necessity of life").

      (shaking head)

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    11. Re:nor a credible citation by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      What you're basically saying is that the Dixie Chicks were censored by the *secondary* level of government which we commonly call "the corporations". Because the corporations hold so much power, they have the ability to make a music group disappear from American life, simply by refusing to stock their CDs.

      We now see a similar thing happening with Glenn Beck, where the corporations are trying to yank him off the air. They hold enough power that they are virtually another level of government, and I would not be surprised if they succeeded.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    12. Re:nor a credible citation by austin987 · · Score: 1

      For a more reputable ranking, see http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=363&year=2009

      Freedom house is one of the main sources for such statistics in political science research.

    13. Re:nor a credible citation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      [Citation Please] There is a difference between not purchasing something, and stores not stocking it because it doesn't sell, and "because the people who disagreed had arranged for them to be banned." You will need to cite your "banned" sources, or you haven't proven censorship. As the poster above noted, people are free to not purchase songs/movies of people they don't like and yes, I do remember the incident.

  12. Kudos to samzenpus for this one... by herojig · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Now here is a /. that I could wrap my arms around: pointers to research, tools, and good news. The country I live in comes up no evidence of filtering whatsoever. The Psiphon open source so far only has a windows installer/instructions as far as I can tell, but I guess as a project this may grow into something we can all use for protection...hard to see it right now however...more testing needed.

    --
    I think therefore I can't be ~TTNH
  13. Knowing What Not to Say. by FurtiveGlancer · · Score: 4, Funny

    I judiciously avoid terms that will make my internet experience suspect for the key word scanners. Words like Keyhole, Echelon, Einstein might cause notice of your inputs so just be care{click, dial tone}

    --
    Invenio via vel creo
    1. Re:Knowing What Not to Say. by L4t3r4lu5 · · Score: 1

      You're doing it wrong! It's Keyhole, Echelon, Einstein, and then you end wi(*&^BFCNO CARRIER

      --
      Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
  14. ah, the Internet... by Tastecicles · · Score: 4, Funny

    ...where men are women, women are men, and little girls are FBI agents running honeypots...

    --
    Operation Guillotine is in effect.
  15. How do you know? by GWRedDragon · · Score: 2, Insightful

    How exactly does software expose government surveillance on an intermediate network you have no control over? How does anything?

    The only way you know if someone is spying on your data is if someone goes public with it, and it seems pretty stupid to assume that those exposed cases are in any way representative of the actual state of spying.

  16. South America by cenc · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I don't see any discussion of South America. There is almost no serious Internet censorship in any of the countries. Most have higher political and economic priorities over trying to be thought police of their citizens. I suspect that most of the monitoring going on is really related to true national security issues, not simply trying to control and manipulate the populations.

    About a week ago Chile tried to introduce a law in to congress that would require ISPs to monitor and cancel accounts of users for P2P content. It was shot down with only 1 vote in favor in congress. Try that in the U.S. or European countries? Even if it was not constitutional, you would still see some right-wing "save the children" type try vote for it in mass and not even bother reading it.

  17. No info about America and Canada? What a joke. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Apparently these folks have no relevant information about the United States or Canada. This after the PATRIOT ACT, Total Information Awareness, etc. I mean, nobody spies better than the USA, on its citizens and the rest of the world. By the looks of their little map, the project defines some other out there who censors, like Iran, and we over here that do not.

    Their map is not complete. Both Canada and the United States have PROVEN selective censorship of "views in opposition to those of the current government, [...] related to human rights, freedom of expression, [and] minority rights." In the past decade vigilantes have pressured LEGAL resources of this type off the web because they were for boylovers. But these acts of censorship do not count. They do not appear in the annals of human rights organizations from which they obtain their data. I guess because boylovers are not human?

    From the Interview:

    "Banning some content, such as child pornography is of course legitimate. Other types of content, such as "terrorist content", is problematic as there is no proper legal definition and the term is open to broad interpretation."

    I've said before that anti-pedophilia is more fundamental to the West than anti-terrorism, and this statement reinforces that view. Anti-pedophile censorship is viewed as "of course legitimate" while battling terrorist information is "problematic." This coming from the critic of filtering and online censorship. That different jurisdictions define child pornography in very different ways, that in some jurisdictions text, fiction, and art, and nudity is banned (see the latest censorship at the Tate museum). Even the term child pornography is question since child is defined as anyone under the age of 18. "Experts" have declared that we will be experiencing an "epidemic" of teen-made pornography using webcams. By my calculations, according to published numbers, about %15 of "child pornography" is self made webcam porn. Expect that number to rise as web connected cameras saturate our society. Why should this material be categorized with rape videos? That's just the beginning of the questions we might ask about the issue of "child pornography." The "of course" this professor treats himself to is ideological, not empirical. It sticks because nobody questions his lack of questioning.

    But at least we know one thing: "of course" we're going to end up with an invasive system of Internet surveillance and censorship in the West. We don't even need to ask any questions about that. Great. This coming from the surveillance and filtering watchdog.

    Nobody gives a damn about any of this because (a) railroading pedophiles into concentration camps sounds like a pretty darned good idea to many Americans, and (b) kids and teens are the targets of constant social control by their parents and schools; nobody owes kids a "normal" sex life. If 13 year olds like to cum, you just deny it, ignore it, hide it, censor it, speak out against it. And if someone is interested in watching, you prosecute it. "Of course."

    From the interview:

    "If we believe that openness really is a better path, then we have to make sure that we address the legitimate concerns of policy makers and law enforcement agencies by providing them with tools that are relevant to policing in the cyber domain without necessarily resorting to tactics that potentially lead to abuse - first and foremost censorship and unnecessary surveillance."

    Translation: if you believe in openness, you have to support state directed censorship and surveillance, by another name. And the censorship and surveillance watchdog group will be the ones to provide the tools.

    Now that's what I call interesting.

  18. JoeFromSJersey by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why would the guy being interviewed go so far as recommending Psiphon for people that are living under totalitarian states when Psiphon specifically states on its website that it doesn't provide anonymity? I would think that if he was going to make a recommendation to help with people trying to get around oppressive information filters he'd also want to try to protect them, so why not suggest something like TOR?