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Toshiba Demos Dual-Touchscreen Netbook
Lanxon writes "Toshiba has announced a trio of new devices that it's hoping will shake up the somewhat stagnant notebook PC market. The most interesting is the Libretto W100 — a clamshell device that comes with two screens in place of a screen and a keyboard. Both screens are identical, measuring 7-inches diagonally, and are touch-sensitive. An onboard accelerometer allows you to use it in landscape or portrait configuration, and Toshiba's pre-loaded a boatload of specialist software that'll let you get the most from the device — including a range of virtual keyboards. It runs Windows 7, is powered by an Intel U5400 processor, and comes with 2GB of DDR3 RAM, a 62GB SSD, and the usual array of connectivity options, including 3G."
A what?
I cant wait till they make this pocket sized. It would do nicely as a smart phone form factor.
Don't worry. You can just pin a virtual keyboard permanently to the lower touchscreen. It'll be just like a real laptop, only worse and more expensive!
On the other hand, this could really be the computer that takes the underground Nintendo DS emulator scene by storm....
Sure reminds me of what it was supposed to be, minus the stylus.
Is there an OS that is better suited for this device? I am not aware of any OS developed for a touch computer interface that isn't a phone, save for the iOS.
But for a netbook it's somewhat puzzling. Nobody wants to do that much input with a virtual keyboard. On the other hand, adding touch to an ordinary netbook form factor running Android would make a lot of sense. HP has announced one as a Compaq but I don't know if it's hit the channel yet, and further, I will never give HP my money again after the nightmare I had with an EliteBook (We're talking a $2500 machine here) with a defective GPU and a service contract (apparently also defective)
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Windows 7 is touch-enabled out of the box, and the interface is far more suited to touch than the older one, with the large task buttons etc. Leave it to Slashdot to be out of touch (har har).
Touch interface with a non-touch OS GUI. I don't think this is gonna fly, fellas.
I'm not sure what this even means, nor why it was modded +Insightful.
The OS has a GUI, yes. The physical device has a touch sensitive display, yes. I'm sorry you didn't even bother to RTFS, so here let me highlight this gem for you:
Toshiba's pre-loaded a boatload of specialist software that'll let you get the most from the device
"Be prepared, son. That's my motto. Be prepared." --Joe Hallenbeck
I don't know what "usual" means where the author comes from, but I certainly don't see RJ11 anywhere in the specs.
----
USE the Force.
There is more to making a touch GUI than a few big buttons. The entire interface has to be geared toward it. Admittedly, I haven't used Windows 7 on a touch-based device, but if Microsoft has been as thorough in making the interface touch-suitable as they are about visual consistency in their UIs, then... it will be pretty unusable if you want to do much more than hit the start button.
Look you can't compete with the iPad at the same price points. You have to undercut the iPad. The iPad is a reasonable tablet device with a lot slickness and though put into it. Unless you are truly better than the iPad you cannot charge the same price.
You have to be 1 order of magnitude cheaper (base 2 is fine). You need to be half the cost of the an iPad. This means that a competitive tablet has to be $350 USD or less.
If you're not even close to an iPad, your upper bound is $200 USD.
I have an EKEN M001, it is a $100 tablet and with the latest firmware it isn't bad but thing can't play videos very well and is a little non-responsive. But the point was that the $100 price point was enough to make me buy a tablet when I had little interest in the iPad (it is so closed). On the 2nd day of ownership I programmed an app for the M001 and put it on there :)
Great.
Now we can recreate a complete ZX80/ZX81/Atari 400 experience with an emulator. And now I can have a Symbolics keyboard for programming.
Seriously: A virtual keyboard for extended usage is something that remains to be tested. It will require some clever mechanisms to compensate for fat fingers and some feedback for touch typists. I would not discard it as impossible.
http://www.dieblinkenlights.com
Windows 7 is touch-enabled out of the box
/bump. How exactly did the parent get +5 Informative?
Sadly lacking the Microsoft Courier OS. Oh well. Any Nintendo DS emulators out there for Windows 7?
Admittedly, I haven't used Windows 7 on a touch-based device,
In that case, how do you go about rightously making such wide statements about it?
I've used 7 a bit on a HP TouchSmart machine and I really don't know what you're getting at about it being a non-touch OS. I found nothing lacking.
Dedicated Cthulhu Cultist since 4523 BC.
Admittedly, I haven't used Windows 7 on a touch-based device
And yet you feel compelled to comment that it's not up to the job. Interesting.
Not that I'm saying that it is - far from it, not having used it I am specifically refraining from expressing an opinion on that either way.
It's official. Most of you are morons.
I know you're being deliberately obtuse, but here's what it means: you need to design the whole damn UI to work with fingers. Some bandaid software on a mouse-centric UI will not work nearly so well, and this has clearly been borne out by the market. If you want to make a touch UI, you need to do it properly.
I will make a bet with you right now. This little laptop thing will go nowhere. It will be eaten alive by the iPad and Android tablet devices. Toshiba will stop selling it within a year-18 months.
Presumably you haven't opened the onscreen keyboard in Windows 7. Or noticed that the taskbar was widened to accommodate being pressed by a finger. But hey, maybe they stopped there and thought that was good enough.
You almost NEED a pen/mouse to select some options
nyctopterus meant they are using an OS GUI that was not made for, or geared toward, 'touch' user interaction. Windows 7 may have some features that work with a 'touch' device but it certainly isn't "made for touch". The Windows Phone 7 OS would probably have been a better choice.
An onboard accelerometer allows you to use it in landscape or portrait configuration
What about Battleship(R) configuration? It would be interesting if it can be used by two people simultaneously. And there had better be an off-switch for that accelerometer. The thing I have hated most about my iPhone is that I can't read anything when laying down on my side.
but I'd rather have one large screen as opposed to two smaller screens. But then I guess I'd have an iPad, wouldn't I?
No yesterday, no tomorrow, and no today.
How far back in the past are you willing to reach?
- Palm
- PenPoint
- NewtonOS
- Momenta
- GRiD's PenDOS
All sadly gone (I especially miss PenPoint)
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
Anyone else read that as a buttload?
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
7" touch sensitive screens and the best thing they can think to put on it is a flat, non-feedback QWERTY keyboard that was originally designed to avoid keys sticking on typewriters and has caused millions of cases of RSI. The new input device has to be:
It's notable that Wii has done remarkably well with an obvious yet new input device, in spite of going backwards a generation in graphics capability.
Swype and SlideIT look pretty cool, especially if they allowed optimised keyboard layouts. What else is possible?
What's that I hear? Two screens aren't enough for you.
Well we're giving you three screens. That's right three! A tertiary screen on the back of your screen so everyone can that you're only browsing the hippest websites around.
What's that? Three screens not enough? Well we've put a revolutionary new fourth screen on the bottom. So your wang can instant message your friends too!
Shit, you want screens, we'll install them in your colon! Just please buy our gadget! I need the allowance to buy my soul back.
Widened? Is it now wider than the screen, so that the start button and clock end up off the sides?
QWERTY doesn't cause RSI. Using a keyboard badly, or the wrong kind of keyboard, causes RSI - as well as carrying on when something hurts.
QWERTY was supposedly designed to slow down typists (though finding *definitive* references to that reasoning is tricky). However, it doesn't mean that it's any more difficult to type on once you've been trained. As always, a 100wpm typist could jam up any typewriter anyway, and even in the computer age QWERTY doesn't slow a professional typist down (The Dvorak stuff is dubious - check any sources for their actual data / reasoning because often it stems from Dvorak-performed research and there is other, independent, research that suggests it's no different to QWERTY once you've used both for a while).
And few other input devices are used by approximately 100's of millions of users yet, and yet dozens if not hundreds of alternate input devices have existed for decades. Sticking one into a product you want to sell as anything other than an option is a REALLY bad idea, commercially speaking. The Wii was a toy used specifically to be general purpose and work well in lots of physical-simulation activities. The keyboard is *still* the best input device in terms of ubiquity, security, speed, accuracy and time-to-learn in a modern "real-world" environment. And for your argument to work, you'd have to do about 10 years of study into the others to determine if they make RSI incidences worse when you use them every day for 8 hours a day. Alternative inputs are fine for occasional use but after a while, they will make anybody tire.
Don't pay any attention to him, he's just out of touch.
I'm gonna bite.
The fact you can use Windows 7 as a non-touch OS doesn't make it not support touch.
I'm using it (right now) on a tablet convertible.
The on-screen keyboard is the best I've used, work well on my 8.9" screen.
The ability to scroll seamlessly on every window with a scrollbar by dragging up and down works well.
Large buttons.
Other than a mobile interface (iOS, android), it''s really quite workable.
Admittedly, I haven't used Windows 7 on a touch-based device,
In that case, how do you go about rightously making such wide statements about it?
I've used 7 a bit on a HP TouchSmart machine and I really don't know what you're getting at about it being a non-touch OS. I found nothing lacking.
In that case, how do you go about rightously making such wide statements about it?
Please, people, wake the fuck up before MS goes down the shitter. Apple needs some competition. This device is a joke compared to a real native touch screen experience and ecosystem.
Admittedly, I haven't used Windows 7 on a touch-based device...
I can see I'm going to have to expand the scope of my signature...
Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
Seems honestly like they copied the courier minus the only thing that actually made the courier work. The active digitizer.
Have fun taking notes with your fingers. Sadness.
nyctopterus meant they are using an OS GUI that was not made for, or geared toward, 'touch' user interaction. Windows 7 may have some features that work with a 'touch' device but it certainly isn't "made for touch". The Windows Phone 7 OS would probably have been a better choice.
I strongly disagree with the concept that an OS isn't "made for touch." The OS is there to help you do things, like run software. I hardly think that today's modern OS can be put to blame when a given device's software is not "up to par" for the expected experience.
As anecdotal evidence, I can use WindowsXP/Vista/7 without a mouse or touchpad. I can get by in many programs and procedures without the mouse. The invention and the widespread usage of the mouse has no relevance to what the OS will or will not allow. Mouse drivers and software are the glue that binds the new device to the OS. If it doesn't do a good job (I have yet to get my hands on this dual touchscreen beastie), I hardly think the OS is to blame.
Oh, and I should also briefly mention that I am in no way suggesting that new input/device paradigms don't rise and fall, and that those paradigms don't influence design in areas such as the OS. I am merely stating my opinion that it's a flawed premise to blame the OS when a device/software doesn't do what it's expected to.
"Be prepared, son. That's my motto. Be prepared." --Joe Hallenbeck
The dual digital screens for reading a novel are not an advantage at all. They actually make it more cumbersome to deal with.
You have dual open pages in a paper book because of the way pages are bound, there is no advantage to carrying over this paper artifact to digital except in rare cases.
With a digital reader you simply page instantly to the next page, no need to have two screens, look at one, then the other, then page them both.
This is one of those niche ideas that looks cool at first but in reality has very little to recommend it considering the rise in cost/complexity/weight to deliver its few marginal benefits.
It's also slow as molasses according to videos on Youtube,
Oh what a joy to spend 4 seconds to change Window... Must have!
Because that's a myth. QWERTY was the fastest design that was come up with based on the limitations of the existing hardware of the time. The funny key layout? That's to spread apart the commonly-used hammers so they wouldn't jam on the typewriter.
I didn't know DeVry offered an MBA. Who modded this pretentious drivel up?
QWERTY doesn't cause RSI. Using a keyboard badly, or the wrong kind of keyboard, causes RSI - as well as carrying on when something hurts.
And what proportion of users of this new laptop do you think will be using the virtual keyboard 'well'?
QWERTY was supposedly designed to slow down typists (though finding *definitive* references to that reasoning is tricky).
This is a less credible point than the one I already made.
However, it doesn't mean that it's any more difficult to type on once you've been trained. As always, a 100wpm typist could jam up any typewriter anyway, and even in the computer age QWERTY doesn't slow a professional typist down (The Dvorak stuff is dubious - check any sources for their actual data / reasoning because often it stems from Dvorak-performed research and there is other, independent, research that suggests it's no different to QWERTY once you've used both for a while).
Funnily enough, this is exactly what is says in the page I linked to.
And few other input devices are used by approximately 100's of millions of users yet, and yet dozens if not hundreds of alternate input devices have existed for decades. Sticking one into a product you want to sell as anything other than an option is a REALLY bad idea, commercially speaking.
If you have a touchscreen then the new input device is going to be an option.
The keyboard is *still* the best input device in terms of ubiquity, security, speed, accuracy and time-to-learn in a modern "real-world" environment. And for your argument to work, you'd have to do about 10 years of study into the others to determine if they make RSI incidences worse when you use them every day for 8 hours a day.
I could use your argument against you: you'd have to do about 10 years study to prove the QWERTY keyboard is still the best, during which time we're almost certainly going to have something better.
For handheld computers, I'd guess that SlideIT is already better.
In sound-isolated environments, voice recognition software is better IMHO.
Swyper would be great on this.
Well, you're not far off...
It's a netbook. Globe, Browser, Etc, all big icons on the taskbar. Combined with a decent on-screen keyboard and what more do you need?
You aren't one of those people who claims the iPad is not for "real" work and then turns around complaining that a similar device running windows isn't usable for "real" work, are you?
I'm waiting for something like this, preferably a little bigger, to take notes in class. With a pen. And hopefully good hand-written equation to LaTeX conversion will come with it.
If you've ever had a remotely mathematical class you would know keyboards just don't cut it. And don't give me that Lyx-with-micros crap- I need diagrams too.
T91MT
Battery: 5-6 hours
Weight: 2 pounds
Heat: None
Rotating fan: None
Windows 7 words great with a touchscreen.
-signed
Someone who uses it on a regular basis.
PS, if you have a touch screen and use the built in flicks at all, you really really should try out this app. http://forum.eeeuser.com/viewtopic.php?id=84092 It takes the default flicks and blows them away.
Problem is, Windows 7 is just the OS. Apps are the biggest problem and having to right/middle click is a royal PITA with a touchscreen. Either you have to use an active touchscreen (no finger pointing - special stylus needed), or a passitve one with various gesturing to achieve a right-click (tap-and-hold being a common one).
And then there's the idiot app developers who hide all functionality inside a right-click menu, without making an accessible way of getting them without right-clicking.
(It's partly why Macs have one-button mice but support multibutton mice just fine - Mac users get really pissed off if a developer tries something like this - right-clicking is an accellerator (right-click -> action, versus select -> menu -> action), not a place to hide features. Ironically, it also makes MacOS more touch-friendly since right-clicking is optional)
If they reduced it still to a wallet, with e-IDs and ability to swipe CCs, then it would get FAR more interesting. Of course, I would not bet that Toshiba could do this (more like Apple, HTC/Google or HP/Palm).
Make sure everyone's vote counts: Verified Voting
Those are fairly decent specs for a Windows device if a little quaint vs the competition. Let's see:
T91MT ====================> The Competition
Battery: 5-6 hours =======> 10+ hours
Weight: 2 pounds =========> 1.5 pounds
Heat: None ===============> Impressive, but I'll have to see it to believe it.
Rotating fan: None =======> Ditto
Here's one of the real killer features of the iPad that you people aren't getting. While your Windows tablet is on standby, it may as well be off. When the iPad's screen is off, it is conserving just as much power as your tablet, yet, it can receive emails, alerts, etc. It's essentially still on just in a low power state. It's a continuous run device like a cell phone whereas your device works in fits and starts unless you stay fairly close to a power outlet. That's a big part of the promise of tablets that you people just don't seem to get. That's why the iPad is smashing sales records while you people are standing around with your mouths open like, "Duh, fanbois, har har". You just don't get it.
Windows 7 words great with a touchscreen.
-signed
Someone who uses it on a regular basis.
No doubt MS has spent gobs of money giving Win7 a great touch screen GUI. But, to coin a phrase, "It's the apps, stupid".
PC Folks Feel Like Their World Is Slipping Away. It is.
Forget touch specific OS, gestures, and ebook. I think the killer app for this is a device is app specific keyboards, ie. no more remembering hot keys. The hot keys are the keys that show and are labeled as such, no more ctrl alt shift or function keys. You would have a copy key, a paintbrush key, and a nurb key, etc. I wouldn't worry about no right click on touch screen, there is a virtual track pad with right click if you want it advertised for this device.
Using it a bit is much better than not using it at all. I can get the gist of an OS by using it for a minute; you can't do that by looking at a picture.
My original point was that, no matter how much we'd love to bash MS, there isn't a more viable OS to run on this device on the market today. Even Linux would have the same limitations from a GUI standpoint. I would prefer to see these devices shipped with Win7 (or Linux de jour) and eventually drive development of a touch based OS than have them not ship at all. I am intrigued and excited about the direction of the "iPad class" of hardware. I use my iPod touch for easy email and web access when the laptop is too bulky or a hassle to haul around the house. I am not a fan of the Apple approach, however. Anything that drives competition and the development of this class of device should be praised and noted.
Put an ARM processor in it and Toshiba's got something here. Forget DSXL, try DS XXXL. Although, I wouldn't be surprised if this makes its way into netbooks.
Put your challenge on longbets.org and see if anyone bites! Your bet is on the short term for the site, but still a good bet!
Why such the fuss? You can load Android on the device:
http://www.android-x86.org/
http://code.google.com/p/live-android/ (older)
Hell, dual boot Windows and Android if you like.
Anything I've run works fine with the touchscreen. The iPad is selling like hotcakes because Apple redesigned an old concept and is selling it like it is a revolutionary breakthrough, just like the ipod. I've had an netbook ever since the original asus eee and have always had people ask what it is. Now they just ask if it is an ipad. Apple does a great job marketing their crap so that in the public mind anything even similar, even if it came first, is a knock off of apple.
Problem is, the touch-only form factor isn't exactly ideal for 'real work'.
The iPad is selling like hotcakes because Apple redesigned an old concept and is selling it like it is a revolutionary breakthrough, just like the ipod.
Wow, I know you were meaning to troll but somehow in your blind obliviousness, you nailed it. Apple redesigned an shitty product that MS had been utterly failing at for a decade. They made it actually worth buying and, surprise, people are buying it. How them grapes taste?
I can get by in many programs and procedures without the mouse.
Getting by != good enough for the masses.
"Natural Keyboard" emulator I'm looking forward too. Perhaps you just bend it back on it's spine, like your dad told you not to do with books.
Nullius in verba
Big is all the rage now:
First, it was a hip-hop thing and Flava-Flav upsizing his watch to wear across his chest, then Apple upsized the iPhone to the iPad and now Toshiba upsizes the DSi.
What's next? Cars? Barbie action figures?
me. --a by-product of public education
This for $400 (or $300 without the keyboard) seems to fit the bill.
Apple redesigned an shitty product that MS had been utterly failing at for a decade. They made it actually worth buying and, surprise, people are buying it. How them grapes taste?
Herd instincts only affect cows. Who cares what everybody else thinks is good? I'm only really interested in serving my personal requirements when it comes to a Personal Computer. (Go figure!)
The iPad makes it hard to fix stupidity on the Web. This is due to it's design factor, which is all about feeding people pre-made media while severely gimping HALF the point of the entire internet. Interactivity without a keyboard means you've been reduced to a drooling consumer. Or a paste-eating finger-painter. This might be fine for brain potatoes, but for me it's a huge, "No Thank-You!"
I've had an ASUS netbook for a couple of years now, and I find the little guy quite useful. It won't replace my desktop setup, but it's pretty darned handy in the ways it was meant to be. This new Toshiba jobbie looks neat, but I'd have to try out their keyboard before picking one up. If it had a pair of 10" screens and higher resolution and maybe pen input, then it would be pretty awesome, but it's early days still. Somebody is bound to make something truly useful soon.
-FL
For someone that primarily uses a desktop and types a lot, a laptop keyboard is already one dimensional. When I needed to do a lot with a laptop, I plugged in an external keyboard. It is a much bigger deal than small screen size.
Herd instincts only affect cows.
you've been reduced to a drooling consumer. Or a paste-eating finger-painter.
Your arrogance and juvenile petulance astounds me. I don't have an iPad. I feel like my Droid does everything an iPad does and more. But I'm not going to sit around on a high horse and dog people that do see value in the device. Basically, go fuck yourself.
"-- including a range of virtual keyboards. It runs Windows 7,"
Yawn...
TFA says that the second screen can display different types of keyboards, included one designed for 2 thumbs when being held that way.
We're soooo close to the digital everything assitant (similar to what courier promised), but I expect it'll be 18 more months before we see really solid solutions in this area.
Still, I want a little thing I carry around (like my iphone) with a ton of apps that I can pop in and out of to take care of all those little things i need assistance with hour to hour.
However, when I want to hunker down and troubleshoot my network, I want to be able to flip over and use all my solid network tools that require a computer to act like a computer. I think in some ways thats the promise of android or windows 7 if it receive a solid UI refresh. However, the devices aren't there yet. You're either a phone/tablet focused at apps, (the mini-games of work). Or your a netbook and up (Full games from Portal up to Oblivion). I want both!
I do security
Read carefully. That was my point. :)
"Sir, Apple has released the iPad, it's eating into our sales what will we do?"
"Apple's selling a lot of iPads? Then we'll make a DOUBLE iPad!"
This sentence no verb.
The funny key layout? That's to spread apart the commonly-used hammers so they wouldn't jam on the typewriter.
That was a requirement of the key layout at the time. Which means that there's probably a more efficient keyboard layout out there, considering this requirement likely discourages certain layouts that are better.
For example, putting "ERT" on a non-home row tells you right off the bat there's a better layout out there. The ";/:" is a complete waste. Dvorak may or may not be a better layout (I'm not sure it's so great, having used it for a while), but QWERTY is by no means the ideal for today.
I'd really wish there was actual research (not the Dvorak propoganda) into this now that flexible key layouts are becoming a physical reality.
I'm not sure you get what GP means. A touch UI is optimized for fingers and the imprecise boundaries of the finger. A normal UI is optimized for precision that a mouse/stylus enables (there is, in fact, a difference between a mouse UI and a stylus UI, but the difference is not nearly as profound).
I.e. touch UI's can't have elements that are too small, because then they'd become too difficult to activate without unintentionally activating neighboring elements. Touch UI's rely more on gestures for navigation and input because the finger is not as steady as an arm, and hence motion is easier to pull off accurately than "clicking".
Windows 7 may be fine for touch computing, but it's far from optimal.
"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
My aunt recently retired and wanted a new computer, desk, chair, etc. While waiting for the Office Depot guy to go check on if the desk she liked came in different colors we started playing around with the Touchsmart 600-1050, the 23" model. It had Windows Touchscreen Pack on it which includes touchscreen Virtual Earth (amazing) and a bunch of other fun apps.
The best was this game where origami flowers float in a pond and you have a little paper boat to go around and gather them. The key is that you don't move the boat with your finger, you use your finger to make ripples in the pond. The harder you push the bigger the ripple. That's how you steer the boat. But, the ripples will also move the flower. Pretty damn cool.
She never intended to spend that much but we were so impressed that she did. When I was setting it up I realized I wasn't even using the mouse, I was using the on-screen keyboard and my finger. The best part: It only has one cord! Along with the wireless HP 4500 printer she went from having a snake's nest under her desk to only having two cords. To say she was happy and impressed is an understatement.
iPad's maybe the future of mobile but this thing is the future of home computing. Wireless mouse and keyboard, HDMI, every other video and audio hookup you can imagine and it just looks freaking cool.
Guess how many years a workable os run on this magically device?
How many years a workable note taking program available?
How many years your I.T. department migrate the app to that un-magically-old-aged device?
Your arrogance and juvenile petulance astounds me. I don't have an iPad. I feel like my Droid does everything an iPad does and more. But I'm not going to sit around on a high horse and dog people that do see value in the device. Basically, go fuck yourself.
Hm. Well now, if you typed that response on your iPad clone, then you might (almost) have a valid point of view.
Otherwise, I have to wonder if you didn't simply recognize exactly what I was saying as an uncomfortable and unavoidable truth and reacted primarily because you don't like what it says about you or where your brain might be headed.
-FL
When the iPad's screen is off, it is conserving just as much power as your tablet, yet, it can receive emails, alerts, etc.
That's about as useful as a carpet fitter's ladder. You still have to wake it up to read them.
ACTUAL SIZE!!!
I find it humorous that this post begins with a decry of another posters maturity and arrogance that itself ends with the phrase, "go fuck yourself."
How is it a redesign? It is the exact same form factor that has been tried before. There is no breakthrough. The only difference is that instead of an open market (including opensource) you have apple spoon feeding you what you can and cannot run. Apple is the worlds greatest advertising firm, but as a computer company their products are worse knock offs than anything Microsoft has done.