Slashdot Mirror
New Zealand U-Turns, Will Grant Software Patents
ciaran_o_riordan writes "Due to lobbying by a group called NZICT, New Zealand's parliament is now set to let go of its proposal to ban software patents. Patent attorney Steven Lundberg announced the details in a blog entry. This was quickly deleted, but not before it got stored in Google's cache. Here we can read that 'Hon Simon Power has asked MED [Ministry of Economic Development] to work with the Parliamentary Counsel's Office to redraft the section along the lines of the European Patent Convention.' Which is exactly the opposite of March's announcement that 'computer software should be excluded from patent protection as software patents can stifle innovation and competition, and can be granted for trivial or existing techniques.' The background to this case gives every reason to be hopeful, if computer users in New Zealand get active again."
sucks eggs.
Prior Art
Friend, you have little chance of New Zealanders doing that. They are too busy with their sheep.
This will have as much effect as Switzerland banning whaling.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Someone's suggested mailing copies of Patent Absurdity to patent policy setters in NZ. They've started building a list here:
Add as many names as you can think of - and we'll need something to indicate why this person is relevant and address. A name on its own is useful, but if that person is to receive a copy, someone will have to dig up an address.
Expert in software patents or patent law? Contribute to the ESP wiki!
I don't want to sound overly sceptical, but the evidence for this is a blog post that the blog's author has since deleted, right? Would it kill someone to email the blog's author and ask why it was deleted? Could it be that it's inaccurate in some material way? I'm not arguing that the post's deletion is a demonstration of inaccuracy, but it raises an eyebrow.
No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
what the fuck is wrong with the comment system!?
One of the key issues with NZICT is that they claim to represent the New Zealand IT community, and yet in reality their membership is governed by commercial size - and of course, all the large outfits with precious few exceptions are the local chapters of the multinational giants (Microsoft, HP, et al).
So what this situation illustrates is
a) The Select Committee process is a joke (as it appears if you have sufficient clout, you can ignore it and go straight to the minister)
and
b) NZICT are shooting a good portion of New Zealand's home grown ICT industry in the foot, and pretending that it's for the good of the industry at large.
By and large the Patent world provides leverage for large firms with large patent portfolios and the budget to play in the legal marketplace. It hurts smaller firms who don't have the capital for prolonged legal battles. The arguments 'for' Patents are not entirely without merit (imho) but the arguments 'against' outweigh them by a mile - unless there's profit to be lost.
-.-. --.-
Once again people who have never even read a software patten comment
on the patten process, and presume to know everything.
A "software" patent usually does not mention the word "software"
anywhere within it. There is no way to tell if the patent is
purely about software or not - at least not from a legal perspective.
What makes a patent admissible is if it has particular application
and contains a novel inventive step.
So even the most outright ban on all software within patents would
change little really. Moreover an outright ban is far more than any
patent system has ever thought about enforcing.
So there is no war going on here except in your head.
-paul
I'm not familiar to the context of NZ on this matter, or even the relevant individuals. But I'm touching a tangent on something mentioned by the OP:
Does Mr. Lundberg know that his blog post is now cached? I wonder how he'll react if he happens to find out about it?
You're thinking of Australia
After logging in slashdot still does not take you back to the page you were on. It's been that way for 20 years.
Software patents hinder progress because they give existing slow-moving, dinossaur-like large companies the tools to kill small innovative IT companies before they outcompete them and turn into the large companies of the future.
In Software there are no basic concepts which are trully new or innovative and require patent protection - pretty much any software concept can and will be independently reinvented again and again because all professionals in the field will come up with similar solutions when trying to solve similar problems.
All software which is sufficiently complex for being non-obvious is already protected by copyright due to it's sheer size - no patents needed.
Any country that adopts Software Patents creates the conditions for the stagnation of their own Software industry - Software Patents are used by large companies to kill, while they're still young, any and all companies which might've one day turn out into something like Google.
For a country like New Zeeland, which has no large software companies, enacting Software Patents will just kill local software companies for the benefit of larger foreign ones. This is pretty much the pinacle of stupidity.
As an European I tell you New-Zeelanders: don't follow-up on the footsteps of the EU and the US - in 20 years time all new and innovative ideas will be coming up in countries where, thanks to weaker IP enforcement, the cauldron of innovation and unfettered competition continues to bubble at full strength, while places like the US and the EU will see their economies continuing stagnate and decay because the few new ideas they still manage to produce are being killed in the cradle.
New Zealand Brings Software Patents back From Brink of Extinction
New Zealand looks like its reversing course on software patent protection. On June 9, there was a meeting between representatives of NZ Ministry of Economic Development (MED) and representatives of NZICT Group. It appears that New Zealand is likely to ultimately adopt an approach to software patents that is consistent with the EPO’s position. My thanks to Jim Hallenbeck (Schwegman) and Paik Saber (IBM) for relaying this information.
Here is the summary of the meeting provided by Brett O’Riley CEO of NZICT:
Our representative delegation met with MED in Wellington yesterday. This was to discuss the formal submission we had made to Hon Simon Power last week covering our concerns about the proposed draft legislation.
The end result of the meeting was extremely encouraging. While section 15 (3A) will not be removed (our ideal outcome), Hon Simon Power has asked MED to work with the Parliamentary Counsel’s Office to redraft the section along the lines of the European Patent Convention. He has informed the Commerce Select Committee that Crown Law will be undertaking some redrafting before the bill gets to its Second Reading.
While it’s obviously not the end of the journey, it was very pleasing to have a positive indication that the Government recognises there is a need to amend section 15(3A) to make sure it’s consistent with the intent of adopting European practice. While European law does restrict software patents this is positive progress, and the view of our team is that this would be a good outcome for the New Zealand ICT industry.
In summary, the MED confirmed earlier statements from Select Committee members and MED officials that the intent was to follow European law (even though this is not mentioned in the Commentary to the Patents Bill). The MED acknowledged that amendment is required to achieve this, and that the Minister supports finding a reasonable way forward on this point before proceeding with the Bill.
The meeting was attended by myself, as well as Peter Wren-Hilton from Pingar, Dougal Watt and Julie Motley from IBM, and Waldo Kuipers from Microsoft. There was an apology from Ed Robinson (Aptimize) though I verbally covered his concerns. From the MED, Rory McLeod (Director – Competition, Trade and Investment Branch) attended, as did Silke Radde and Warren Hassett who are responsible for overall IP policy and the Patents Bill respectively.
Rory McLeod began with an update on the Patents Bill clause 15(3A).
He described the decision of the Select Committee as being to move to a “normal patentable situation as in Europe”, that did not allow patenting of software per se.
Rory then went into some detail (partly in response to questions we had raised) about what the Select Committee intent was:
The intent had never been to ban software patents outright (and the MED would have serious concerns about that if it were proposed).
If it is patentable in the EU then it should be patentable in New Zealand.
Software should be treated like other technology, so should have a technical purpose and be an inventive step to be patentable, as in Europe.
Not just any software would be patentable, it would need to meet the above test.
Embedded or not embedded is or was not the distinction that is intended.
The signal that the Government wants to send is to follow European law and practice.
The MED also now clearly acknowledge that clause 15(3A) is not adequate to convey this intent. It was great being able to present practical examples of world leading software being developed by Pingar and Aptimize, and hear MED recognise the importance of these companies being able to seek patent protection.
The MED said they wou
After logging in slashdot still does not take you back to the page you were on. It's been that way for 20 years.
And the world-wide actions against whaling ARE having an effect. Japan is "fighting" it tooth and nail but if you look closer it is more a case of saving face while slowly giving in then outright resistance. The number of whales is on the increase while whaling might soon be going down even further.
So your point is completly and utterly wrong.
Remember that even the longest journey starts with a single step. Your kind never ever gets anything done ever because you are unable to accept that you need to set this first step if you ever want to start out.
"OMGZ, thisser pln not solvers evything at oncers, ts fail!"
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
How ofen do they have to disagree to have them? You often see that if some groups wants to push something, they will retry and retry and get elected away all the time. Then suddenly they win, basically because everybody is tired of playing their silly game.
Now if you want to reverse it, they say that that can not be done, because it is the law.
What will happen here is that it might be rejected again and then it just starts all over again.
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
This whole blogging thing needs to be stopped.
Religion is what happens when nature strikes and groupthink goes wrong.
They're on holiday. Yes, I know what you're thinking - surely they can't both be away?
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
I live in the USA, where the constitution explicitly states that mathematics cannot be patented. Yet somehow, patents are granted on algorithms.
Palm trees and 8
Don't forget Wales! And North East Scotland where I currently reside. Now if ewe'll excuse me..
which is totally what she said
Simon Phipps, former chief open source executive of Sun Microsystems, has just asked IBM's open source VP Bob Sutor via Twitter (with a reference to this very slashdot story) to clarify IBM's role in lobbying for software patents in New Zealand. It will be interesting to see Bob Sutor's response, should there ever be one.
When it comes to patents, IBM stands for International Bullying Machines...
excuse me you oldtimers, but there is no other culprit here. as long as there is private capital, there will be stronger private capital (than the common citizens' own total) that will be able to use that capital to lobby for their own private interests, and impinge their own will and desire to all of the population. there can be no democracy, where there is such phenomenon.
Read radical news here
U-turn or turn with a Ewe?
'computer software should be excluded from patent protection as software patents can stifle innovation and competition, and can be granted for trivial or existing techniques.'
In US Patent Law, and in every PCT country in the world, there are three base questions for whether something can be patented (there are more, too, but these are the important ones):
1. is the technique already known? In other words, is it already existing?
2. is the technique obvious? In other words, is it trivial?
3. does the technique comprise patentable subject matter?
These are three completely independent questions, and that's what the quote gets wrong... It answers the third question with "all computer software should be excluded from patent protection", but only as a result of the first two questions "because they can be granted for trivial or existing techniques". That's not an issue with software - that's an issue with everything. Patents shouldn't be granted for machines, engines, chemical compounds, or anything else that is either trivial (obvious) or existing (known).
The point of the third question is, should a technique that is completely unknown to man and not at all obvious still not be patentable, because it's in the field of _____? For example, in the US, we consider laws of nature to be unpatentable, even if they're completely unknown and non-trivial.
So, when you talk about whether software should be patentable - whether it's merely an "abstract mathematical algorithm" performable by a Turing machine - the question is not whether patents get granted for trivial or existing methods... but whether a non-trivial, new method should still be unpatentable, solely because it's software.
..Conchords illiterate mods!
voted on and passed?
Gerry Adams, leader of the Provisional IRA, once said "we have to be right just once, you have to be right every time" (or words to that effect) regarding the use of bombs to promote their cause.
Hmmm, seems like the same here. They (MAFIAA etc) have to be right just once.
Wreck your software "industries", wiretap your people for the sake of American meda corps, go ahaid.
But stop pressuring everyone else to do the same when you become incompetitive and jelous of our freedoms.
You take money at the expense of your people's future, you weak souls.
No software patents in EU.
Revise copyright laws.
Discard ACTA.
I'm a Kiwi, made a submission to the select committee, and have just sent an email to Simon Power suggesting he tread carefully.
Before you all get too het up, I would emphasise that this is New Zealand. We have pretty transparent politics here, even to the level of releasing MP's expense claims (aside: we just had a great little storm in a teacup because one MP booked several porn movies to his hotel bill). Another really healthy thing about our tiny country is how directly you are connected to your representatives - you can usually pop in and have a chat face to face on Saturday mornings.
I remember when our motorways didn't have median barriers, and we kept getting horrendous head-head collisions. After one such, the government came out and said they couldn't afford median barriers at that time. The reaction was pretty obvious - how much is a human life worth? People phoned or visited their MP, and within a week the government had announced funding for median barriers. It's great to live in a country with a government that is small enough that you know you can affect them.
So I know my email will be read by someone who will talk directly to Mr. Power, if not by him. And assuming several other people do the same, he's going to realise he's stirred up a hornet's nest. Watch this space...
Do as you would be done to.