Slashdot Mirror

← Back to Stories (view on slashdot.org)

Brain-Computer Interface Still Going After 1,000 Days

Posted by Soulskill on from the has-not-assimilated-anyone-else-yet dept.

An anonymous reader writes "Remember BrainGate? The implanted system lets people with paralysis control computer cursors and other devices just by thinking about moving them with their hand. A new report shows that it is still going strong in a patient 1,000 days past her implant."

77 comments

  1. First post by GameboyRMH · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Because I didn't have to use my hands.

    --
    "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
  2. Bad Summary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When I first read this I had flashes of "watergate" "wikigate" etc etc and thought "this is either really overhyped or really bad" - luckily its just cool.

    1. Re:Bad Summary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's a bad summary because it refers to the name of the product and you're so brainwashed by modern media that you associate the word "gate" with a scandal?

    2. Re:Bad Summary by Anrego · · Score: 1

      yup, that was my first knee-jerk reaction as well.

      "Oh great, another over-hyped controversy for which some empty suit has appended a "gate" suffix too".

      Pretty bad that it's gotten to that point.

    3. Re:Bad Summary by Anrego · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's a fair summary, but I probably wouldn't have started with "Remember BrainGate?", because I think a large chunk of the slashdot crowd (myself included) has been conditioned to let out a groan and stop reading the second we see the gate suffix applied to anything. Especially when a word like "remember" is shoved in there, because remember tends to reference an event or person.

      "BrainGate, an implanted system lets people with.." might have been better for the slashdot crowd.

      It's sad that I don't think anything I've said is... insane. This gate suffix garbage has really gotten that bad!

    4. Re:Bad Summary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      This gate suffix garbage has really gotten that bad!

      I know. It's time to bring an end to SuffixGate once and for all.

    5. Re:Bad Summary by More_Cowbell · · Score: 1

      I've been on Facebook too long... my first instinct was to hit 'like'.

      --
      Experience teaches only the teachable. -AH
  3. Second post by cultiv8 · · Score: 1

    wondering how this can be used for porn

    --
    sysadmins and parents of newborns get the same amount of sleep.
    1. Re:Second post by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      A better question is, how can't it be used for porn? I mean at the very least, you have hands-free control of a computer.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    2. Re:Second post by donotlizard · · Score: 2

      Yeah, but if you can control the cursor by thinking about moving your hand(s), then wouldn't the cursor be in a constant erratic motion?

    3. Re:Second post by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You could probably make some kind of computer-controlled robotic arm for a ... novelty item which you could then control with your thoughts. You wouldn't even need your hands to ... exercise.

    4. Re:Second post by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      This is also the beginnings of the input side of a Matrix-like virtual world. The first application is going to be Woman In Red.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    5. Re:Second post by slick7 · · Score: 1

      rule 34!

      --
      The mind conceives, the body achieves, the spirit manifests.
    6. Re:Second post by Homr+Zodyssey · · Score: 1

      Clean socks...?

  4. Third post by RussellSHarris · · Score: 1

    ...because obviously my hands were (ahem) preoccupied.

    1. Re:Third post by davester666 · · Score: 1

      So you can do yourself AND do a reach-around on somebody else!

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
  5. oblig. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    http://xkcd.com/644/

  6. BrainGate, still going strong... by earls · · Score: 2

    Unlike their web server. :p

  7. past her? after her by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    learn to english

  8. Quality of life? by symes · · Score: 4, Insightful

    From the article:

    Results across five consecutive days demonstrate that a neural interface system based on an intracortical microelectrode array can provide repeatable, accurate point-and-click control of a computer interface to an individual with tetraplegia 1000 days after implantation of this sensor.

    This seems pretty impressive, but what the article does not seem to cover is quality of life issues such devises might impact on. I would imagine the improvement in quality of life to someone with tetraplegia could be huge.

    1. Re:Quality of life? by CrashandDie · · Score: 4, Informative

      Not really. My girlfriend takes care of people who suffer of tetraplegia (C1 up to C6), and unless we can use those interfaces to have robots dress them, cook for them, undress them, change their catheter bag, wash them, iron their bedding (to prevent sores), etc, a neural interface would be of pretty limited use.

      Sure, it could allow them to communicate, use a computer, or even use the phone / telly, but from what I've seen, few people with such a level of handicap have the drive to do those activities on a regular basis.

      Remember that these are people who can't sit up without help we're talking about. Twitter is not one of their priorities, from what I can tell.

    2. Re:Quality of life? by royallthefourth · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Surely being able to do something as mundane as posting on Slashdot (which this may allow) would raise their level of social interaction a great deal over their baseline, even if it tends to be unsatisfying. Not only that, they could do more like search for ebooks to read, build a playlist of music and start/stop it, or even program a sequencer and synthesizer to play their own music.
      Maybe even after reading the right ebooks someone may teach himself to program or do digital art or learn a foreign language and use these skills to find a job that could be done remotely.
      There's a lot of things that can be done with just a mouse these days.

      It's far from independence and normal interaction, but it's got to be a much bigger set of options than what they've got right now.
      On the other hand, it's all just conjecture on my part.

    3. Re:Quality of life? by BlackSnake112 · · Score: 1

      Think of this as a start. Maybe with advancements they can extend the control to other things. Maybe there is a way to implant something to let these people move their own body. You can for the extreme and do a body prosthetic a la Ghost in Shell. Even if we had the technology to do a full body prosthetic I am not sure humanity is ready to accept it yet.

    4. Re:Quality of life? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      wow, what an incredibly limited viewpoint.
      You are determining what a group of people will want based on the limitations they currently have.

      What you can't easily factor in, is what value 'privacy' and simulated independence may have to a group that is so dependent on others for everyday life.

      My guess is a large portion will find xHamster very interesting....

    5. Re:Quality of life? by HeckRuler · · Score: 1

      Remember that these are people who can't sit up without help we're talking about. Twitter is not one of their priorities, from what I can tell.

      I think you're missing the point. They can't sit up without help, but with this interface, they can use a computer without help. Painfully slow, sure, but hey, I think they have some time on their hands. I mean, they're not going anywhere.

      They still need help in the real world, but I think they'd still use it quite a bit in between rousing games of stare-at-paint and yell-at-nurse.

    6. Re:Quality of life? by denzacar · · Score: 1

      after 1,000 days a woman who has no functional use of her limbs and is unable to speak can reliably control a cursor on a computer screen using only the intended movement of her hand

      Substitute "a cursor on a computer screen" with "exoskeleton robotic suit" and you are way beyond "pretty limited use".

      --
      Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
    7. Re:Quality of life? by alienzed · · Score: 1

      Yeah! Finally they can read Slashdot and play Quake Live.

      --
      Never say never. Ah!! I did it again!
    8. Re:Quality of life? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Did you really just imply that if a neural interface didn't improve the caretaker's job, that it's fairly useless? You do know that those are human beings with vibrant minds and personalities trapped within a body they can't communicate with anymore, right?

      Remember that these are people

      You should have just stopped there and remembered it yourself.

    9. Re:Quality of life? by Antisyzygy · · Score: 1

      If I was tetraplegia and I didn't have the ability to use computers like everyone else I would probably rather die. At least you could play games and sort of escape reality. You could also work, and have some sense of purpose like you said.

      --
      That brings me to an interesting point, / . is just "the ramblings of socially-inept, technology-literate news-mongers".
    10. Re:Quality of life? by bratloaf · · Score: 1

      I assume (Without RFA) that this interface could be used in some way to pass simple commands. Oh, like opcodes say. Something the user could be trained to do.

      If so, they why couldnt this interface be used to control a robot-arm RIGHT NOW. Or any number of other, more special purpose robotics/devices? I.e. Television, radio, tilt bed, ring nurse for drink, "Im Wet" etc. etc.

      I think you are shortsighted at the possibilities here. Just having a successful interface that doesn't burn out the neurons after THREE YEARS is an amazing achievement. This is clearly an alpha-implementation. Think of the possibilities. Heck, look at what Stephen Hawking can do with one finger.

    11. Re:Quality of life? by morgauxo · · Score: 1

      I don't know about complex tasks like dressing and feeding but I would think this interface alone should be used to allow some movement. If it can be wired into a computer to act as a mouse surely there is enough control there that it could be used to raise/lower a recliner. Maybe it could even be used to drive an electric wheelchair? It seems almost cruel to me that they have this wonderful implant in her but they only chose to use it as a mouse.

      Of course... it can probably only be used for one kind of task. I'm sure the brain learns to use it as a mouse and plugging it into something else would require huge amounts of retraining the brain each time it is done. Maybe it is a choice of either mobility (hooking it to a chair) or communication (the computer). So what? Be creative! Hook the computer to the chair and let her control it with "mouse clicks".

    12. Re:Quality of life? by BJ_Covert_Action · · Score: 1

      ...unless we can use those interfaces to have robots dress them, cook for them, undress them, change their catheter bag, wash them, iron their bedding (to prevent sores), etc...

      Well, to be fair, those robots aren't going to exist in any practical manner until the victim has some means to control them. A proper handicap-aid system that allows a victims of a particular debilitating condition (MS, ALS, tetraplegia, etc.) to function like they did before they were disabled is still a long ways off, yes. But developing neural interfaces alongside appropriately sensitive hardware for use in the types of applications you are describing is necessary to get there one day. Technology of this sort tends to come in baby steps.

      --
      Motorcycles, Robots, Space Gossip and More!
    13. Re:Quality of life? by HungryHobo · · Score: 1

      the robot arm I've already seen implemented, there's a few videos floting around with monkeys with such implants using a robotic arm to feed themselves with their own arms restrained.

    14. Re:Quality of life? by HungryHobo · · Score: 2

      you really think something like this wouldn't be any use to someone who is totally paralysed?

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoRVZgLaXus
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnWSah4RD2E

      you might not be able to change your underwear but being able to scratch your nose, change the channel or raise/lower their bed would be kinda a big deal when you're totally paralysed.

      long term it might even be possible to hook the output of such an interface up to something like this:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYE7eB6fksM

      to allow mobility.
      or this

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYE7eB6fksM

    15. Re:Quality of life? by sznupi · · Score: 1

      Even if we had the technology to do a full body prosthetic I am not sure humanity is ready to accept it yet.

      And sadly, it would be probably a possibility mostly limited, for some time at least [*], to those whose brains are still highly pliable. Meaning mostly the young. Oh, imagine the moral panic caused by that one...

      * If I were to guess, it will be limited like that for all of our (perceptibly ever faster nearing to an end at that point) lifetime - talk about frustrating.

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
    16. Re:Quality of life? by thesandtiger · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Being able to make their bed raise/lower, change a channel, turn on/off/up/down the AC, close shades, turn on/off the television/radio, change channels/stations, surf the web, play some games, chat (slowly) with others online, and any number of other uses would be pretty huge I'd think. And easy to connect to a computer. And would lead to big QoL improvements; there's a pretty GIGANTIC difference between being able to do something yourself and needing to ask a caretaker to do it for you.

      I've a friend who is severely handicapped (thalidomide) and is 90% confined to a wheel chair as a result. He has little devices his dad made for him that allow him to do some tasks he previously had to ask for help on. We met through a role-playing gamer's group, and when we all brainstormed a way to set him up with a gadget that would let him pick and roll his own dice he was pretty freaking happy about it because it meant he no longer had to ask someone to do it for him.

      Hell, even in my own life, and I am fortunately quite able bodied, when I've had times where I wasn't able to do things for myself I would often choose to suffer in silence rather than ask a caretaker to do something for me because I didn't want to bother them. This can be huge.

      --
      Since I can't tell them apart, I treat all ACs as the same person.
    17. Re:Quality of life? by HeckRuler · · Score: 1

      Ah, that's it. I was having a hard time figuring out how someone could even hold this kind of thought in their head. He's only looking at this from his perspective. Well, not entirely, I guess he's thinking about his girlfriend's perspective. He fails to place himself in their wheelchairs and look at it from their perspective. Isn't that kind of psychopathic behavior?

      How the hell did this get to +5 insightful? Are we all psychopaths?

    18. Re:Quality of life? by pclminion · · Score: 1

      So it's not worth it because it only really helps the tetraplegic, not the people caring for the tetraplegic? What the hell?

    19. Re:Quality of life? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You could also start a cult of people who are going to abandon their bodies and join you in a virtual world.

    20. Re:Quality of life? by sjames · · Score: 1

      Is it that they don't want to do those things or that they can't psychologically afford to want to do those things?

      It seems likely though that if they can operate a mouse with it, they could probably operate an arm at least.

    21. Re:Quality of life? by antdude · · Score: 1

      I have multiple disabilites too. Computers + Communication (bulletin board systems/BBS' and Internet) are big gifts to me. I can't talk and hear well due to my impediments, but I can type and read.

      --
      Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
    22. Re:Quality of life? by Arterion · · Score: 1

      Exactly. A mouse is actually extremely versatile -- she can use the mouse to click buttons to operate anything.

      --
      "That which does not kill us makes us stranger." -Trevor Goodchild
    23. Re:Quality of life? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      unless we can use those interfaces to have robots dress them, cook for them, undress them, change their catheter bag, wash them, iron their bedding (to prevent sores), etc, a neural interface would be of pretty limited use.

      This is an interface which allows them to issue controls to any receiver, without having to use any actual muscle impulses.
      Yes, that's correct. Even if you could not move one muscle in your body, including your eyes or tongue, you could still issue commands to a device.

      Stephen Hawking would no longer have to use that stupid fucking joystick to control his chair and his text-to-speech synthesizer. And with a little more work on the Power Loader exoskeleton the military is working on, he can replace his wheel chair with a robotic exoskeleton that will give him full use of hands and legs.
      (And a laser cannon in his chest. Why? Why to crush All Those Who Oppose Him!!!!)

      Remember that these are people who can't sit up without help we're talking about. Twitter is not one of their priorities, from what I can tell.

      Ok, excuse me while I go literally bash my skull against a wall.

      You know what most bed-ridden people want, more than ANYTHING else in the world? Normal Human Contact. When you literally cannot move, simple communication is the FIRST priority. Chances are they would enjoy reading Twitter a LOT more than having to stare at the Weather Channel until the Nurse comes by and switches it to Judge Judy. It's the difference between having to rely on an aid for EVERYTHING and only having to rely on them for SOME things.
      And that alone makes all the difference in the world.

  9. When is this coming out? by igi-111 · · Score: 1

    If it's working on a long time period, then when will this technology get common, and when are we going to see useful application(like real new computing interfaces or remotely controlled)? Does it mean that we'll be able to make artificial arms soon? Who can travel to the future and tell me if it's full of cyborgs?

    1. Re:When is this coming out? by socz · · Score: 1

      It's going to be like Ghost in the Shell where we can plug in and do all you're saying and more! Can't wait for it yeah!!!

      --
      My abilities are only limited by my imagination
  10. 1000 days is good... by Coisiche · · Score: 1

    ...but it needs to last a lifetime.

    1. Re:1000 days is good... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      duh?

      “None of us will be fully satisfied with an intracortical recording device until it provides decades of useful signals,” Hochberg said

    2. Re:1000 days is good... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even if it still works after a decade, it'd probably be obsolete by then. Time to upgrade to the new model that lets you operate robotic limbs too.

  11. 1000 days by Kokuyo · · Score: 1

    So... that's 2.7 years... but the thing was implanted in 2005 according to TFA. Is this top secret somehow? Has any new development happened in the meantime? Has the life expectancy of this device been improved?

    All in all, this article doesn't give much information about the current level of brain interface technology... it's about three years out of date.

    1. Re:1000 days by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      So... that's 2.7 years... but the thing was implanted in 2005 according to TFA

      "Well, not 1,000 days in a row" - Scientist

    2. Re:1000 days by Zerth · · Score: 1

      They only discuss the first 1000 days because that data has been released through a journal. All data after that has only been discussed at conferences and hasn't yet gone through peer review.

    3. Re:1000 days by Vesvvi · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The last time I saw a presentation on brain interface technology was almost a year ago, so I'm not 100% current either, but the current state of the art isn't that great.

      The fundamental problem is that the brain/hardware interface breaks down with time. In simple terms, it looks like the extremely soft brain tissue doesn't stand up to being in hard contact with the rigid electrodes (there's a nice picture in the article: they look like meat tenderizers). In the long run, there is formation of a buffer zone of unusable tissue between viable brain matter and the electrodes which blocks the signal. This is an area of substantial research: trying to build nanomaterials that serve as a good physical buffer between the brain and electrode, which is a non-trivial problem. Success in this goal can directly lead to longer-lived devices.

      So when they say

      no evidence has emerged of any fundamental incompatibility between the sensor and the brain

      that's not entirely honest. Yes, their sensor still works fine but they still need to adapt it to be more brain-compatible. My personal guess is that this one patient just happens to have a lucky brain composition/response.

    4. Re:1000 days by hitmark · · Score: 1

      And then comes the next trick, being able to feed data back...

      --
      comment first, facts later. http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm
    5. Re:1000 days by KingMotley · · Score: 1

      That is why they said "fundamental incompatibility" instead of just "incompatibility".

    6. Re:1000 days by morgauxo · · Score: 1

      I read a while ago that researches were making neurons communicate with light. When the neuron fires it glows. Then the sensor doesn't HAVE to touch the brain directly.

  12. -Gate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Too many political reports left me wondering why this is a scandal.

  13. The Daily Chimpout by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Today, featuring PCB BK

  14. /.ed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Seems Computer-Computer interfaces needs a little work though, i'm getting Service Unavailable

  15. Terrifying. by GodricL · · Score: 2

    Looking at the picture, it looks like that poor S3 has a massive SCSI cable connected to her head. It looks really awkward and uncomfortable. They couldn't use USB? Or Bluetooth? If you wiggle the cable... can she feel the implant shift slightly in her BRAIN?! I'm going to stop, I'm freaking myself out.

    1. Re:Terrifying. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The brain does not have touch or pain receptors. So, no.

    2. Re:Terrifying. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, those same researchers at Brown University are working on developing a wireless interface for just such a system.

    3. Re:Terrifying. by HeckRuler · · Score: 2

      If you think that's terrifying, think about being trapped in your body without being able itch, wipe, or feed yourself.
      Yeah, it's probably not the most comfortable, but it's a step up. Kinda like giving a lame person the ability to run again, but only in high heels. You work with what you've got.

    4. Re:Terrifying. by HikingStick · · Score: 2

      Actually, if my understanding of physiology is correct, the brain itself does not have pain receptors. So, while she should be able to feel it on her scalp, she would not be able to feel it moving around inside her head.

      --
      I use irony whenever I can, but my shirts are still wrinkled...
    5. Re:Terrifying. by Sulphur · · Score: 1

      Looking at the picture, it looks like that poor S3 has a massive SCSI cable connected to her head. It looks really awkward and uncomfortable. They couldn't use USB? Or Bluetooth?

      If you wiggle the cable... can she feel the implant shift slightly in her BRAIN?!

      I'm going to stop, I'm freaking myself out.

      How about an arm interface?

  16. world+dog dropping fake math & science? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    like the plague? cancer? wmd? eugenics? all negative life scenarios. all artificially induced. fake body counts. fake money. fake weather. fake/fatal religions/gods (our worst 'accomplishment'?).

    the truth will never go away. it 'fights' to be known. disarm. gather. carry on as it was originally intended for us, & we know what that is. too simple?

    brains? seems like more of a problem for us than we really have/need, at least until they work better, after the royalty/chosen one based 'fog' is lifted, as is happening almost everywhere already today, except here?

    1. Re:world+dog dropping fake math & science? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What the hell are you talking about? Timecube much?

  17. Screw aimbot by j-turkey · · Score: 1

    Sign me up. I will pwn you all at CS!

    --

    -Turkey

  18. Loopback brain interface? by i20AuLion · · Score: 0

    Could it be possible to insert somekind of electrode in the emtions center of the brain then another one to stimulate it? Someone could then learn to read emotional state and control it. No more irrational phobias or anxieties. You could stay calm and coherant in the worst situation. It could be the ultimate tool to control or emotional and mental health problems. It could be the perfect biofeedback tool to behavioral therapie. Oh my! So much potential! You could control a virtual emotional arm that could touch one own emotional state.

    1. Re:Loopback brain interface? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well Sybok, That sounds a lot like the Sons Of the Patriots system. It's great until the system doesn't work anymore and all the suppressed guilt, doubt, fear, and rage comes back home to roost.

  19. AHA! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So, she was that Aimbot that I encountered...

  20. brain activity by slick7 · · Score: 1

    Big Deal, the government's intelligence flat-lined back in 1913, and still going strong?!

    --
    The mind conceives, the body achieves, the spirit manifests.
  21. Let the market speak by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why isn't Google/MS/Nintendo investing in this shit? Why are these efforts put towards people with paralysis when it could easily be applied to every consumer out there?

    That's some shortsightedness right there.

    1. Re:Let the market speak by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One day and 74 comments later and no one's referenced Back to the Future. What is this site turning into?

      Marty McFly: [showing the two boys how to play the shoot 'em up video game] I'll show you, kid. I'm a crack shot at this.
      [shoots a perfect score with the electronic gun]
      Video Game Boy #1: You mean you have to use your hands?
      Video Game Boy #2: That's like a baby's toy!

  22. ClimateGate reboot? by cheesecake23 · · Score: 1

    "Remember BrainGate?"

    Are the climate skeptics now denying that they have brains?

  23. They should have used KDE by G3ckoG33k · · Score: 1

    "Some on-screen targets were as small as the effective area of a Microsoft Word menu icon."

    They should have used KDE. It is vectorized and can be scaled efficiently. :|