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HP Sues Oracle For Dropping Itanium Support

Fudge Factor 3000 writes "HP is suing Oracle for a breach of contract, claiming that Oracle was contractually obliged to continue supporting the Itanium architecture, which they recently nixed support for. Oracle has fired back that Itanium is essentially a dead architecture and will soon be discontinued by Intel. And so the blood feud continues between Oracle and HP."

153 comments

  1. You young whippersnappers by atari2600a · · Score: 5, Funny

    Why in my day Oracle had to support my UNIVAC for fifteen miles in the snow barefoot uphill both ways!

    1. Re:You young whippersnappers by JustOK · · Score: 4, Funny

      You had FEET?

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      rewriting history since 2109
    2. Re:You young whippersnappers by Canazza · · Score: 1

      You had SNOW. What I would have given for some lovely cooling snow. We had nowt but hot ash raining down upon us morning noon n' night. Blotted out the sky it did.

      Closed the airports too.

      --
      It pays to be obvious, especially if you have a reputation for being subtle.
    3. Re:You young whippersnappers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      LUXURY.

    4. Re:You young whippersnappers by BrokenBeta · · Score: 1

      You had HOT ASH? We would have killed for that. We just had loads of freezing snow everywhere.

    5. Re:You young whippersnappers by aix+tom · · Score: 2

      Kids these days. We had hot snow and freezing ash all day long. I seriously clogged up the punch cards.

      Did we sue? NO, we just made do with what we had.

    6. Re:You young whippersnappers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You had air?!

      We would have been proud to have burning hot ash. PROUD I say!!

  2. MAKES SENSE !! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's in the contract. I give it three years and then we all will know: THE ITANIUM IS DEAD !!

    1. Re:MAKES SENSE !! by hairyfeet · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I think the bigger question is this....why is Intel continuing to beat the obviously VERY dead horse that is Itanic? Its a giant flop, YOU know this, I know this, and Oracle knows this as well, so why continue to waste R&D for a chip that barely has even a teeny tiny niche and is being phased out by almost everyone?

      The problem with Itanium is that Intel bet they could not only get everyone to abandon literally billions of lines of already paid for X86 code, but that they could build a compiler able to keep it fed and do all the heavy lifting and in the end they just weren't able to deliver compared to X86-64. Like it or not for many jobs X86 will be here to stay for a long time and Itanium was never a real contender.

      So why are they wasting their money? It isn't like they don't have a very valuable product line to replace it, where money is no object Xeon rules the roost in performance by a pretty big margin in servers, just as in the desktop for sheer power the i series owns the top end (for the rest of us Opteron and Phenom work just fine, thanks) so what is the point? it isn't like they are gonna magically get everyone to suddenly drop X86-64, POWER, and Sparc, all of which are beating the Itanic, and just the fact that I can say itanic and everyone knows what I mean just shows the chip has a bad rep. Let it die already Intel, throw HP a sweetheart deal to say you're sorry for the oopsie and just let the thing die already.

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    2. Re:MAKES SENSE !! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The question really is, what will Steve Jobs decide. It is he, not some mule at HP or donkey at Oracle, who detemrines the fate of Intel, and the rest of us for that matter.

    3. Re:MAKES SENSE !! by antifoidulus · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I doubt they are doing too much R&D on it, they are mainly just manufacturing the CPUs(in small quantities I'm sure) so they don't anger existing customers. They only stopped making 486s in 2007(those most of those were for embedded applications)

      Also, just my 2 cents, Itanium didn't fail because compilers couldn't effectively utilize it, it failed because VLIW was an academic experiment that got waaaaaaaaaay out of hand. While compilers certainly could have utilized it better, they cannot violate the fundamental constraint of ensuring at COMPILE TIME that no 2 instructions being executed simultaneously have any data or execution dependencies. Compare that with the superscalar design used by most CPUs today: they can use runtime behavior to predict jumps, data dependencies etc. While backing out an instruction that was partially executed is costly, modern superscalar designs have to do it so rarely that the little bit of performance penalty for such instructions pales in comparison with the gains you get when you execute multiple instructions simultaneously that *might* have a dependency, something VLIW simply cannot do.

    4. Re:MAKES SENSE !! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Steve Jobs determines the fate of Intel? Go back to smoking.

    5. Re:MAKES SENSE !! by alen · · Score: 1

      HP was a partner since the mid 1990's when development started and i bet there was a contract for a minimum life since HP also invested a lot of money. back then it was very different where HP and Intel made low end products and were salivating at the thought of selling a competitor to SPARC and similar products with their insane margins

    6. Re:MAKES SENSE !! by TheRaven64 · · Score: 3, Informative

      Back then, HP owned PA RISC and Alpha. They weren't 'salivating at the thought of selling a competitor to SPARC,' they owned the chip that was the undisputed performance king. What they wanted was to outsource their chip R&D and production to Intel, without losing their market lead. They stopped developing chips in house, and sent their chip designers over to work with Intel. Now they're stuck with a couple of operating systems that only run on overpriced chips.

      --
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    7. Re:MAKES SENSE !! by C0vardeAn0nim0 · · Score: 1

      because itanium reaps 4 billion a year for intel. itanium alone brings more revenue than all AMD products put togheter.

      from arstechnica

      --
      What ? Me, worry ?
    8. Re:MAKES SENSE !! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ergo, AMD IS DEAD.

    9. Re:MAKES SENSE !! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      And? What's the opportunity cost of $4b of Itanium sales? If the opportunity cost is $4b of x86 sales, then what's the point of continuing with the Itanium farce?

      (I imagine that $4b of revenue from x86 sales is more profitable than $4b of revenue from Itanium sales - because the Itanium-specific fixed expenses are amortised over a tiny number of Itaniums produced per year, leading to high fixed costs per processor, compared to the x86-specific fixed expenses being expensed over the massive amount of x86 processors Intel churns out, leading to low fixed costs per processor).

    10. Re:MAKES SENSE !! by MBGMorden · · Score: 2

      The article is worded incredibly poorly in order to try to force a point that doesn't make sense.

      It compares the $4 billion per year Itanium revenue stating it's higher than AMD's combined $1.6 billion for Q1 2011. It makes absolutely no sense to compare one yearly revenue figure with another quarterly one.

      If that be the case my corner gas station likely makes more money per year *than all of Microsoft combined* (between 3:01:31AM and 3:01:35AM on August 4).

      To compare more accurately, AMD's 2010 revenue was $6.5 billion, which is indeed greater than Intel's Itanium revenue of $4 billion over that same period.

      --
      "People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
    11. Re:MAKES SENSE !! by TheLink · · Score: 1

      The Itanic failed because it was more expensive than the x86, not faster in "integer" performance and not compatible with the x86 for practical purposes.

      Back then (and even now) if you had lots of money to spend, wanted "Itanic" style performance, and didn't need x86 compatibility, you might as well buy an IBM POWER system. At least you know IBM will be happy to keep sucking money out of you for decades ;).

      The rest of the world was and is better off using x86 systems for their servers. Most of the stuff the Itanic is good at is easily run in parallel, and so can be run on multiple cheaper x86 machines, or nowadays on multiple GPU cores :).

      The x86 on the other hand can do the usual web/DB/"misc app" stuff faster than Itanium. The x86 specint scores were better, while the itanium specfp scores were better. The last I checked, stuff like Oracle, Apache, IIS didn't require much floating point performance. If you're willing to dedicate the chip space and power budget, I'm sure it is possible to make x86 floating point performance much faster, but who will pay more for that?

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    12. Re:MAKES SENSE !! by BitZtream · · Score: 1

      If that be the case my corner gas station likely makes more money per year *than all of Microsoft combined* (between 3:01:31AM and 3:01:35AM on August 4).

      Except the original statement in the article is probably true, where as there is no way that gas station makes more money in several years than MS does in any given second on interest alone. You seriously underestimate the amount of money they have sitting around.

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    13. Re:MAKES SENSE !! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Listen here callij boy we don need yur hifalootin finanshul mumbojumbo to no it be D-E-D ded and we likes it that way

    14. Re:MAKES SENSE !! by MBGMorden · · Score: 5, Informative

      Except the original statement in the article is probably true, where as there is no way that gas station makes more money in several years than MS does in any given second on interest alone. You seriously underestimate the amount of money they have sitting around.

      Fortunately, this is a simple math problem.

      365 days per year * 24 hours per day * 60 minutes per hour * 60 seconds per minute = 31,536,000 seconds per year

      Microsoft's yearly revenue is between $65 and $70 billion. We'll take 2010's numbers of $66.7 billion. That equates to only $2,115 per second. The original statement was a 4 second span - we're still talking less than $10,000, which a big gas station can easily take in in a week or less.

      --
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    15. Re:MAKES SENSE !! by secretcurse · · Score: 1
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    16. Re:MAKES SENSE !! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Also, just my 2 cents, Itanium didn't fail because compilers couldn't effectively utilize it, it failed because VLIW was an academic experiment that got waaaaaaaaaay out of hand.

      The irony of Itanium is that while still at Intel, Andy Glew (the Pentium Pro architect) proposed a 64-bit architecture very similar to what AMD eventually did with their AMD64. Obviously Intel rejected the proposal because their heads were so far up their VLIW asses.

    17. Re:MAKES SENSE !! by the+linux+geek · · Score: 1

      How is it a giant flop? It passed SPARC sales years ago. VMS, HP-UX, and NSK all have thousands of customers with no obvious migration path and billions invested in the platform. For these customers, Itanium works fine, and has certain advantages (socket compatibility over multiple generations, for instance) and no obvious reason to dump it.

      On the other hand, you totally lost credibility when you said SPARC was "beating the Itanic." (looking up sales or performance figures from the last 3-4 years would be educational.)

    18. Re:MAKES SENSE !! by daedae · · Score: 1

      Intel is still working on Itanium and has a new architecture in the pipeline. This article agrees that simple VLIW is dead, and indicates that the new Itanium architecture will do a little bit of scheduling on its own instead of relying completely on the compiler.

    19. Re:MAKES SENSE !! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "VMS, HP-UX, and NSK all have thousands of customers with no obvious migration path"

      In other words, it's a success because of vendor lock-in.

    20. Re:MAKES SENSE !! by thsths · · Score: 1

      > The problem with Itanium is that Intel bet they could not only get everyone to abandon literally billions of lines of already paid for X86 code, but that they could build a compiler able to keep it fed and do all the heavy lifting and in the end they just weren't able to deliver compared to X86-64.

      The problem with VLIW (and RISC) is that the compiler has to optimise the code for the CPU architecture, but the CPU architecture changes from generation to generation. You optimise for one chip, and it will run slow on the next generation, and not at all on the previous. SPARC had that problem, but they managed to produce an excellent compiler with lots of switches for tuning the compromise. But software developers don't like this kind of inevitable incompatibility, and they much prefer the much more gentle progress of x86.

  3. What this should tell both HP and Oracle by Rosco+P.+Coltrane · · Score: 4, Interesting

    and any other company following this issue is that they're essentially at the mercy of the business decisions of a third company, Intel, and that's not a very smart business position to get in in the first place.

    --
    "A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
    1. Re:What this should tell both HP and Oracle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and any other company following this issue is that they're essentially at the mercy of the business decisions of a third company, Intel, and that's not a very smart business position to get in in the first place.

      They're at the mercy of the market. Escaping that isn't easy. Itanium failed but that isn't because Intel decided they wanted to be mean to HP and/or Oracle.

    2. Re:What this should tell both HP and Oracle by stiggle · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Oracle now has their own hardware line, which doesn't involve Intel, on Sparc processors.
      HP used to produce their own, PA-Risc, but combined the tech with Intel to make the Itanium.

    3. Re:What this should tell both HP and Oracle by Targon · · Score: 2

      Any new architecture is always a huge risk when it comes right down to it, and both HP and Oracle were foolish enough to buy into what Intel was selling at the time. Hell, it took a LONG time before x86-64 aka AMD64 was supported, so the difference is that people listened to Intel when Intel released a bad product while they pretty much ignored AMD when it released a great product. And of course, both HP and Oracle didn't have people who remembered the failed attempts of the Pentium Pro, which was also a huge failure and didn't sell.

      Basically, Intel can't be trusted when it comes to a whole new architecture, because it just won't sell without any really significant advantages. The only new architecture that WOULD take off would be a new design that is aimed at the millions upon millions of CONSUMERS, and that is why ARM has been doing well. The days when "start with the stuff only a huge corporation would want and then let it trickle down" would work have been over since 1985. Microchannel failed, which was the last time IBM tried to make a major change in the PC industry, so is it any wonder that you really need something REALLY different and better?

    4. Re:What this should tell both HP and Oracle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Any new architecture is always a huge risk when it comes right down to it, and both HP and Oracle were foolish enough to buy into what Intel was selling at the time.

    5. Re:What this should tell both HP and Oracle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It was created by HP, not by Intel.

    6. Re:What this should tell both HP and Oracle by gmack · · Score: 1

      The P Pro was actually a decent chip as far as x86 goes and sold well on servers so it's really not a good example. The thing it sucked at was 16 bit performance where Microsoft's entire consumer OS lineup resided at the time.

      The Itanium isn't a failure because it was designed for large systems. It is a failure because they started by throwing out everything tried and tested when it comes to architecture design in search of the textbook "perfect" design that offloaded far too much on the compiler and in some cases the needed compiler changes weren't even possible.

    7. Re:What this should tell both HP and Oracle by Pharmboy · · Score: 2

      Actually, the Pentium Pro was a GREAT chip, assuming you were running 32 bit software, and there was no reason to not run 32 bit software if you were going to run the Pentium Pro. Cache on die running at cpu core speeds, true SMP performance up to 4 cpus, Linux ran incredible on these processors, even if NT/2000 didn't. If you used them for what they were designed for, they were amazing.

      I had several IBM dual PPro system that we finally trashed the other day. Not because they failed, but because they were from the 90s and can't justify the performance/watt. Itanium was never in the same class as the PPro when it comes to usability and utility, no matter how much faster they were.

      --
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    8. Re:What this should tell both HP and Oracle by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

      Mostly because the picture is pretty, I'll note that cache was technically on package; but separate die, though it ran at full core speed and had many of the features that later on-die caches would have, making it pretty glaringly superior to the old on-motherboard cache RAM. The 1MB version even had 3 dice embedded in the same package, no wonder it cost so much...

      This arrangement also made the PII-based "overdrive" upgrade card look kind of weird(more or less normal PII on the left, cache on the right).

    9. Re:What this should tell both HP and Oracle by jawtheshark · · Score: 2

      And of course, both HP and Oracle didn't have people who remembered the failed attempts of the Pentium Pro, which was also a huge failure and didn't sell.

      You do realize that the Pentium II and Pentium III and hence the whole Core2 series are direct successors of the Pentium Pro, right? The Pentium (I, MXX) has basically nothing to do with the Pentium Pro. For example, the Pentium was the last Intel chip with in-order execution until the Atom came out. Pentium Pro and decendants were out-of-order.

      The Pentium Pro was a great chip and I ran a PPro 200 with 256Meg RAM running Windows 2000 until november 2002. It was a heck of a kickass workstation.

      --
      Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
    10. Re:What this should tell both HP and Oracle by C0vardeAn0nim0 · · Score: 1

      the client i supported in my previous job still had a bunch of PPros running SCO unixware (yeah, i know, SCO is a surso word in /. , but keep in mind those servers were there running for some 12 years) and they run fine.

      and it wasn't a flop in the server market. in my whole career (some 16 years of network, wnidows, unix and linux administration) i saw a lot o PPros running as servers. think on it as the the first incarnation of xeon.

      --
      What ? Me, worry ?
    11. Re:What this should tell both HP and Oracle by jawtheshark · · Score: 1

      Yes, "think of the first incantation of Xeon" is the apt comparison. Didn't Slashdot start off on a Pentium Pro running on Maldas bedroom?

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      Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
    12. Re:What this should tell both HP and Oracle by ggeens · · Score: 3, Informative

      Actually, the Pentium Pro was a GREAT chip, assuming you were running 32 bit software, and there was no reason to not run 32 bit software if you were going to run the Pentium Pro.

      Also, the PPro is the basis for the Pentium II, III processors. It's one of Intel's most successful CPU designs. It was so good that Intel went back when they ran into problems with the Pentium 4. (Creating the Pentium M and Core 1 processors.)

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    13. Re:What this should tell both HP and Oracle by Dunega · · Score: 1

      Right. So every company should build everything they need themselves. That way we could have multitudes of incompatible hardware and software. Sure would generate a lot of jobs though.

    14. Re:What this should tell both HP and Oracle by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      Uhhh AMD64 was released in late 2003 and XP x64 (aka Server 2K3 X64) was released in Apr 2005 so I'd say a year and a half to jump from 32 to 64 bits really isn't a "long time".

      As for TFA Oracle can plainly see that This chip is no more! It has ceased to be! 'Its expired and gone to meet Its maker! Its a stiff! Bereft of life, It rests in peace! If Intel hadn't nailed It to the motherboard 'It'd be pushing up the daisies! 'Its VLIW processes are now 'istory! 'Its off the twig! Its kicked the bucket, Its shuffled off Its central processing coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisibile!! THIS IS AN EX-PROCESSOR!

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    15. Re:What this should tell both HP and Oracle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oracle now has their own hardware line, which doesn't involve Intel, on Sparc processors.
      HP used to produce their own, PA-Risc, but combined the tech with Intel to make the Itanium.

      Most of HP's Unix customers thought that abandoning PA-RISC for IA-64 was a stupid decision back then HP made it, and subsequent events have borne us out. Now it's HP's hardware that will be borne out -- of data centers all around the world. How the mighty have fallen.

    16. Re:What this should tell both HP and Oracle by yuhong · · Score: 1

      Yea, it exposed the 16-bit code that was still in Win9x despite being hyped as a 32-bit OS. Later this also delayed Transmeta's first processor by a year or so too.

    17. Re:What this should tell both HP and Oracle by imroy · · Score: 1

      Didn't Slashdot start off on a Pentium Pro running on Maldas bedroom?

      I thought it was a low-end DEC Alpha, at least at one stage.

    18. Re:What this should tell both HP and Oracle by JasterBobaMereel · · Score: 1

      This is a Chip that Intel still make and the last new version was released just over a year ago... that may be dying but not dead ... ...If you bought a just released new model of a car just over a year ago, would you be surprised that it was no longer supported ...?

      --
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    19. Re:What this should tell both HP and Oracle by jawtheshark · · Score: 1

      Indeed, it's either an Alpha or a PPro. I tried googling for it, but didn't find any references. Which is odd, for some reason I remember them selling their old machines and making a big deal about it on their site. Never mind, it isn't important :-)

      --
      Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
  4. The name "Itanic" is from 1999 by G3ckoG33k · · Score: 1
  5. So.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    .. this means one of two things - Oracle are lying (believable) or Intel are producing a new core which, albeit with the Itanium name, is different enough that Oracle are excusing themselves from new R&D

    Or I'm wrong. Suggest something better, and I may think it the case.

    1. Re:So.. by sphealey · · Score: 2

      > . this means one of two things - Oracle are lying (believable)

      Oracle are lying about what? There can't be more than a few hundred Itanium users around the world, and Intel has been signaling for years that the product line is dead and won't be replaced. Maybe HP shouldn't have shut down its own CPU development and sold its designs (along with the designs of the DEC Alpha) to Intel, but they did. Now that product line has failed and Oracle is just making an obvious business decision.

      sPh

    2. Re:So.. by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

      Itanium isn't widely used; but its users would appear to punch well above their weight when it comes to willingness to pay. Apparently, Intel does ~4 billion a year in sales of the thing. Now, I suspect that continued development is costly enough that Intel would be much happier if they could convince everybody that "Xeon; but with the RAS features not lasered out and for 20x the price!!!" is the way to go; but the sort of people who spend huge amounts, per unit performance, on fairly obscure architectures are exactly the sort of people who Do. Not. Want. to switch architectures.

      Intel and its remaining Itanium buddies(yeah, HP, that pretty much means you...) are in the unpleasant situation of having a product line that is too big to just drop; but likely much more expensive than they would like to keep remotely near performance parity with x86 and with a customer base that is unlikely to just quietly accept an architecture switch in the near future. HP's situation is, of course, rather worse than Intel's... since whenever the ship finally sinks, so do HP's remaining offerings in the "architecturally better than boring x86" niche. IBM will still have POWER, Oracle will have at least the option of carrying SPARC forward, Dell will still have rock-bottom prices...

    3. Re:So.. by asdf7890 · · Score: 1

      and Oracle is just making an obvious business decision

      But (assuming HP are correct about the contract terms) that decision is in breach of what they have originally agreed.

      If HP aren't blowing hot air, then it will cost Oracle. Though they may have planned for this eventuality and calculated that "sum(max(amount_could_sue-for+legal_expenses)) from clients where contract_says_architecture_will_be_supported_longer=1 and likely_to_sue=1" is smaller than the cost of continue support.

    4. Re:So.. by erroneus · · Score: 1

      And where do contractual obligations fit into all of this? Rather than being sued, I wonder if Oracle should not have negotiated out of their contract with HP. It's a funny and hypocritical world of business we see these days. Copyright organizations ignoring copyrights and violating license terms they seek to enforce against others. Companies which famously viciously defend their own trademarks while trampling on those owned by others. Contracts, and other business agreements simply disregarded likely because they think they can get away with it.

      I know it's not new to describe corporate behavior as sociopathic, but it is and the problem seems to be getting worse.

      We like to say "just business" but there is no "just business." To paint it grey in order to cover up the obvious lack of good faith, ethical and moral character erodes humanity in ways I cannot begin to describe. But taking that route, couldn't we also characterize mass killings and murder in different parts of the world as "just business" too? Or how about mass starvations and death by preventable/curable diseases at the hands of people who control the intellectual property of these things. How about putting people into homes under terms they cannot afford and creating securities with the loans which result in serious financial problems for the planet which result in all sorts of tragedies the world over? Still "just business?"

      "Global leadership" is more than government leadership. It is also business leadership. And so far, there are seemingly too few controls against that leadership and the damage they can do to the rest of the world. Ignoring contractual obligations is merely a small sign of a much larger problem. We mere mortals are not allowed to ignore contractual obligations and neither should mega-business.

    5. Re:So.. by icebraining · · Score: 1

      Oh please, powerful people have acted like this for thousands of years, it's not the world of business "these days" nor there's anything to "erode."

      Not that it makes it right, but it's nothing new.

    6. Re:So.. by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      Intel does ~4 billion a year in sales of the thing

      Have you seen the price of Itanium kit? That's about six customers...

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    7. Re:So.. by solkimera · · Score: 1

      not just powerful people. plenty of joe sixpacks do sleazy stuff too. the only difference is the amount of resources involved.

    8. Re:So.. by rubycodez · · Score: 1

      but the chip being sold as "Itanium" is missing some of the original claimed core capabilities, Oracle could easily prove "this isn't the Itanium we were contracting for"

    9. Re:So.. by the+linux+geek · · Score: 1

      "A few hundred?" Tens of thousands, minimum. NSK and VMS alone have a few thousand users each, and HP-UX is much bigger than either. Learn about the industry before sounding off.

    10. Re:So.. by Estanislao+Mart�nez · · Score: 1

      Intel does ~4 billion a year in sales of the thing

      Have you seen the price of Itanium kit? That's about six customers...

      Have you seen how much those six customers pay? That's about 4 billion dollars...

  6. Meh ... by lennier1 · · Score: 1

    Makes sense. HP probably has several contractual obligations of their own since there are many large corporate clusters which are using HP-UX running on a shitload of Itanium systems.

  7. fuck off, HPaq by Hazel+Bergeron · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You are the epitome of modern corporate culture. You destroyed the Alpha and are letting VMS rot. You outsource or offshore everything that isn't bolted down, but nothing is improved. Under Fiorina you demonstrated precisely how to run a company down for short term profit while cosying up to the corporation-friendly government. Hell, you've even ruined your reputation for building hardy calculators. Over a decade after this mess started, the only thing you have left to be proud of is the propotion of your profits which come from selling printer ink.

    It's a small wonder zombie Hewlett and Packard haven't risen from the grave, given a new lease of life in death by recently shuffled Olsen, to personally escort every HP executive to the lowest region of hell.

    1. Re:fuck off, HPaq by Rogerborg · · Score: 4, Insightful

      HP now appears to be composed entirely of execs, lawyers, marketeers, and one guy called Mike who runs runs the offshored sweatshops from his basement office in Woodside. How the mighty have fallen.

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    2. Re:fuck off, HPaq by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I smell a disgruntled ex-employee. Did you get fired for smoking pot in the copier room???

    3. Re:fuck off, HPaq by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 5, Funny

      I believe that you mean:

      "HP's the very model of a modern multinational,
      their expertise confined to MBAs and quibblers contractual,
      the rest's been outsourced from Shenzhen to Hyderabad,
      a plan that makes none but investors glad,
      seeking strategies for how to make their systems worse,
      they gobbled up Compaq with the power of their purse,
      and after they had freed themselves of ghastly Fiorina,
      she left the private sector to afflict the state of California."

      With deepest apologies(not to be construed as admission of wrongdoing) to Gilbert and Sullivan.

    4. Re:fuck off, HPaq by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Would this Mike be Mike Halloran you're speaking of?

    5. Re:fuck off, HPaq by TheRaven64 · · Score: 2

      You destroyed the Alpha and are letting VMS rot

      I spent a while at the 2007 XenSummit talking to someone from HP's operating systems research group. I mentioned that some of the stuff she was working on was similar to something in VMS. Blank stare. It took me a while to realise that she wasn't joking, and she really hadn't ever heard of VMS.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    6. Re:fuck off, HPaq by overlordofmu · · Score: 1

      Oh, Sweet Mother of Fuck, I loved that fucking Alpha microprocessor. A truly beautiful beast if there ever was one. It would have been a dream come true to see that gorgeous hunk of doped silicon gain market share. Imagine where we would be today if it had the R&D and resultant performance gains that the 8086 line did.

      You, who cling to your Intel and work-a-likes are to blame. I am talking to you, Microsoft and HP. Shit, fuck, ass! Even Apple uses that fucked instruction set now!

      If you know nothing of the Alpha, look up its specs and the specs of the Intel microprocessors at the same time period. Now project its performance if it followed the same performance curve that the 8086 line did (I think you called the x86's "Pentiums" back in the day) and you are not a nerd of you don't weep at what has been lost. FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK!

      You said it, Hazel. I weep with you.

    7. Re:fuck off, HPaq by Compaqt · · Score: 1

      How old was she?

      Also, I assume she was actually a she, not using it as a generic pronoun.

      --
      I'm not a lawyer, but I play one on the Internet. Blog
    8. Re:fuck off, HPaq by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      Get over it. Really same thing happened to the 68K as well. It was so much better than the 8086 and the 80286 at that time but people didn't buy it. Heck you could even buy them in inexpensive computers like the Amiga and Atari ST that had far better and more advanced OSs then MS-DOS at the time. Heck the Amiga had real multi-tasking and stereo sound when PC users where trying to get their software to run with TSRs and got a bleep now and then.
      Dude best doesn't really win all that often, marketing does. I would have loved to have access to an inexpensive Alpha in the day. Thing is that never really happened. I have to wonder if Alpha might not have become a great mobile ISA like ARM did. VMS? Yes it still is a great and very secure OS. Too bad that DEC didn't push it down market. But then DEC was always kind of blew that. Imagine if DEC had released a PDP-11 running RSX-11 for the same price as the PC? Then imagine if they had sold single chip PDP-11 CPUs and RSX-11 to other companies so they could have made clones all the while paying DEC money. The PC would have had some trouble and might have even flopped. Thing is DEC didn't want to cut into the sales of it's really expensive professional computers. Over all it didn't really work out well for them.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    9. Re:fuck off, HPaq by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      Mid to late 40s, at a guess, and I got the impression that she'd been with HP for quite a few years (yes, an actual woman).

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    10. Re:fuck off, HPaq by Temkin · · Score: 1

      Get over it. Really same thing happened to the 68K as well. It was so much better than the 8086 and the 80286 at that time but people didn't buy it. Heck you could even buy them in inexpensive computers like the Amiga and Atari ST that had far better and more advanced OSs then MS-DOS at the time.

      The 68k shipped in vast numbers, but it never got the business desktop uptake that it needed to dominate. It originally shipped in what was then a non-standard DIP package, which demanded a manufacturing price premium. As an architecture it hit a major brick wall after the 68030. This was the RISC / CISC wars of the late 80's that gave birth to things like the Alpha, PA-Risc, SPARC, etc... The 68k isn't dead. It had long had standing in embedded devices, arcade game consoles, and found a home in PLC controllers and embedded systems, some of which will still be in service 20+ years from now. It just got kicked off the desktop.

      Imagine if DEC had released a PDP-11 running RSX-11 for the same price as the PC? Then imagine if they had sold single chip PDP-11 CPUs and RSX-11 to other companies so they could have made clones all the while paying DEC money. The PC would have had some trouble and might have even flopped.

      I have a Heathkit H11 sitting in a closet, waiting to be donated to a computer museum. It ran the 16 bit LSI-11 4 chip CPU at 2.5Mhz (circa 1975!), which was basically a full PDP-11/40 instruction set. The kit builder assembled the power supply and chassis, it retailed for $1275 in 1977. Keep in mind however that's almost $5000 in 2011 dollars. It was the high end hobby computer of the late 70's. It beat the TRS-80 model 1 by any measure available, except cost.

    11. Re:fuck off, HPaq by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      And the Alpha found a home in servers, super computers, and so on. The 68k ran into a brick wall because it didn't have the PC money pump to allowed Intel to make the X86 the fast pig that it is now.
      Yea I know about the H11 which is why it is so sad. Imagine if DEC had expanded the memory space and built in a display and keyboard interface for the same price as the PC. It would have been a much better system than a PC running MS-DOS.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    12. Re:fuck off, HPaq by rubycodez · · Score: 1

      that's a laugh, OpenVMS is alive and well, supported, and gets new features added with each release. The Alpha was 1990s, plenty of other chips have fallen by the wayside since then, get over it

    13. Re:fuck off, HPaq by barole · · Score: 1

      Not to mention the Zilog Z8000! Imagine where we would be if it had won the 16-bit wars. We'd all be running TRSDOS 64-bit edition and SuperScripsit 2011.

    14. Re:fuck off, HPaq by Hazel+Bergeron · · Score: 1

      that's a laugh, OpenVMS is alive and well, supported, and gets new features added...

      ...at a snail's pace and only for a CPU which has been slowly dying for the past decade, even while x86-64 has been sitting there for the porting.

      The Alpha was 1990s, plenty of other chips have fallen by the wayside since then, get over it

      Why would I get over a philosophy of excellence in engineering? Will you ask me to embrace mediocrity next?

    15. Re:fuck off, HPaq by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have to wonder if Alpha might not have become a great mobile ISA like ARM did.

      If they'd tried, there'd been some literal pants on fire moments.

    16. Re:fuck off, HPaq by rubycodez · · Score: 1

      Don't blaim HP, it is the choads at DEC who failed you, Alpha aquired with the rest but already HP an Intel customer with their own plans.

      As for slow introduction of features, It's called a mature and stable operating system, quite foreign to the PC users realm I admit. It does the things enterprise customers want, including j2ee.

    17. Re:fuck off, HPaq by yuhong · · Score: 1

      Yea, I know. At least Leo is finally trying to fix this mess.

    18. Re:fuck off, HPaq by Kalriath · · Score: 1

      Don't blame Microsoft - it was only around 2003 that they finally decided to stop shipping Windows Server for the Alpha processor. HP though...

      --
      For a site about things like basic rights, Slashdot users sure do like to censor "dissent".
    19. Re:fuck off, HPaq by Douglas+Goodall · · Score: 1

      I have a growing computer museum/collection that would be very happy to give an H11 a new home. Please get in touch with me if you are serious. Douglas Goodall douglas_goodall@mac.com http://www.goodall.com./

    20. Re:fuck off, HPaq by StewBaby2005 · · Score: 1

      As an HP consultant once told me. HP was a company that measured everything (before they spun off Agilent). they determined that they could use a pretty slow chip (PA-RISC) and slap a bunch of cache on it and out perform the Alpha, which was a beter chip, but with less cache..

    21. Re:fuck off, HPaq by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      The Z8000 was terrible. It really sucked as a CPU and was segmented at that. Please the 68K was much better than any of them.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    22. Re:fuck off, HPaq by amiga3D · · Score: 1

      I remember when HP was THE hardware company that ruled. I remember seeing a photo of a Japanese R&D shop back in the 80's that featured HP test equipment. Everything HP made screamed quality and performance. Too bad they died off. I wish that zombie that uses their name would go away.

  8. mySQL rename by Tuqui · · Score: 5, Funny

    Oracle should rename mySQL as "Oracle for Itanium" and send it to HP.

    1. Re:mySQL rename by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Thanks, you just made me remember why I'm reading Slashdot.

    2. Re:mySQL rename by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      http://www.mysql.com/support/eol-notice.html

  9. What about SPARC by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Now Oracle just has to discontinue another death architecture: SPARC

    1. Re:What about SPARC by d3vi1 · · Score: 1

      There's nothing wrong with SPARC. Solaris/SPARC is still powerful, innovative, scalable and secure. AIX/Power would of been a good match, but Big Blue doesn't invest in AIX. Solaris had more new features added in the past 5 years than AIX in the past 15. SPARC is still going strong because Sun realized that it's not the GHz but the 6,8,16 cores/die that are the requirements for a server and because Solaris is still going strong. The Sun Fire T1000 is still unbeatable in cost/performance even if it's 5 years old.
      All the Linux vendors (HP, Dell, IBM) keep trying to migrate users from Solaris to Linux claiming that it's dead. Yet, they are wrong. HP-UX, Unixware, AIX, Tru64 are however dead or dying.
      Think about Solaris the following way: Oracle Exadata 2. Still nothing on the face of earth like it, because of Solaris and Sun hardware. SPARC is going to do even better once Oracle ports it's Linux distribution to it. Since Oracle Enterprise Linux and Oracle Solaris are eventually going to be the only operating systems certified for Oracle Software, you're going to see a lot of them, especially on SPARC. Oracle, after the acquisition of Sun is slowly changing into an appliance vendor, and I can't blame them for it.

      --
      UNIX was not designed to stop you from doing stupid things, because that would also stop you from doing clever ones.
    2. Re:What about SPARC by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      /me watches the tumbleweeds rolling around, accompanying the lonely guy trying to convince himself, and quietly leaves.

    3. Re:What about SPARC by rubycodez · · Score: 1

      even though down for the last quarter, Oracle's sparc server sales were over 70% of the RISC Unix server market for 2011 thus far. not dead yet.

    4. Re:What about SPARC by the+linux+geek · · Score: 1

      I'm curious, have you seen any of the SPEC_cpu benchmarks on SPARC64? You know, the ones that put a quad SPARC64 VII+ at performance roughly equivalent to a dual-core Phenom that's ~99% cheaper? How about the ones that show no marginal advantage of a SPARC T3 over a Magny-Cours Opteron, even when continiously saturated with threads, again with a vastly cheaper acquisition cost?

      Didn't think so...

      http://www.spec.org/cpu2006/results/res2011q2/

    5. Re:What about SPARC by the+linux+geek · · Score: 1

      Er, no they weren't. Oracle's total (x64 and SPARC) sales for Q1 were $798mn. The total RISC-UNIX market for Q1 was about $2.6bn. IBM's POWER sales were $1.2bn. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/05/26/gartner_q1_2011_server_numbers/

      I'm curious, are you on the Oracle payroll?

    6. Re:What about SPARC by rubycodez · · Score: 1

      no, not on payroll and I despise Oracle and it's bloated 1980s technology DBMS, and also what Sun had degenerated into since the dot-com bubble when they became careless and just rode out the name. Doesn't change that UltraSparc is still heavily present in datacenter and still purchased even in recession. Gartner is the National Enquirer of the IT world, they don't know fact from marketing fiction. Stats on sales are a function of who's reporting and how they want to count things as bundled ( for example server plus storage plus software if you want to jack up numbers)

    7. Re:What about SPARC by the+linux+geek · · Score: 1

      It's been widely known for years that IBM Power is on top by quite a bit, with Itanium in distant second and SPARC occasionally catching up. SPARC has been fading for years though, as Oracle's own revenue figures strongly imply.

    8. Re:What about SPARC by swalve · · Score: 1

      But can you dance to it?

  10. Can I Help Countersue? by damn_registrars · · Score: 1

    If Oracle wants to countersue HP for dropping the Alpha, I'd be happy to testify on their behalf. The idiots at HP killed off one of the best architectures for scientific computations ever.

    --
    Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
    1. Re:Can I Help Countersue? by hughk · · Score: 1

      In total agreement and it wasn't just scientific performance, Alphas were at one time very big on commercial processing powering most of the world's big exchanges. Alpha was innovative and a very clean architecture. It was also designed for multiprocessing from the very beginning. It had a good toolchain available under Unix (incl. Linux) as well as VMS: However HP and Intel for committed to flogging that dead horse called Itanium.

      --
      See my journal, I write things there
    2. Re:Can I Help Countersue? by erroneus · · Score: 1

      Science isn't good for business. There is less short-term money to be made in R&D and a lot more in keeping existing and legacy businesses running. Money spent to keep things the same is money well spent.

    3. Re:Can I Help Countersue? by damn_registrars · · Score: 2

      Science isn't good for business

      Bullshit.

      Science is great for business. What do you think the world's most powerful computation clusters are doing? They aren't doing financial transactions, I'll tell you that. The largest computation clusters are doing scientific calculations. There is a lot of money to be made in that realm - hardware sales, configuration, support, upgrades, etc. Hell it is one of the core focuses of IBM since they sold off their PC & laptop division to Lenovo, and they seem to be doing quite well with it.

      The idiots who killed off Alpha at HP also killed off a nontrivial amount of revenue. Revenue that IBM, Apple, and Dell were happy to compete for. If you look at the top500 list, you see that Alpha was present there even after HP killed it off.

      Money spent to keep things the same is money well spent.

      They didn't even do that with Alpha. They could have just made bigger systems with the same CPU and kept it going with essentially zero R&D work, as the processor scaled beautifully in multi-CPU applications. I can tell you that from personal experience as I used to use an AlphaServer with four 667MHz CPUs and 8 GB of RAM, it could beat the pants off of our 32 CPU Intel P4 cluster with each of those CPUs running at 2GHz.

      --
      Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
    4. Re:Can I Help Countersue? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Science is great for business. What do you think the world's most powerful computation clusters are doing? They aren't doing financial transactions, I'll tell you that. The largest computation clusters are doing scientific calculations. There is a lot of money to be made in that realm - hardware sales, configuration, support, upgrades, etc. Hell it is one of the core focuses of IBM since they sold off their PC & laptop division to Lenovo, and they seem to be doing quite well with it.

      The largest computational clusters aren't doing science, I can tell you that. They do things that HP, IBM etc cannot talk to you about. One of the astronomy faculty here was heavily involved in the design and purchase of the Itasca supercomputer at MSI. During the "construction" the HP people told him two things 1) they don't make any money selling clusters like Itasca 2) clusters like Itasca are nothing compared to those they cannot talk about.

    5. Re:Can I Help Countersue? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      32 CPU Intel P4 cluster

      The p4 was *KNOWN* to be crap. It is why Intel went back to the 686 cpu and drop kicked p4 to the curb. It was why AMD was eating intels lunch. Same clock speed everyone was beating p4 (including other x86 archs) by a good 15-30% on power, cost, and computation done per cycle. The p4 did one thing very good. It could clock up to high rates.

    6. Re:Can I Help Countersue? by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      I think you missed his <sarcasm> tag...

    7. Re:Can I Help Countersue? by RightSaidFred99 · · Score: 1

      So tell me - how many years after the death of a failed and obsoleted architecture will the Alpha fanbois continue to bloviate about it? Alpha was an untenable architecture, and it failed because of that. But people have this weird proclivity to romanticize it for some reason, like if we'd only kept Alpha alive we'd have 1Thz computers that were 100 times faster than what we have today. Well, no. We wouldn't.

    8. Re:Can I Help Countersue? by RightSaidFred99 · · Score: 1

      I can tell you that from personal experience as I used to use an AlphaServer with four 667MHz CPUs and 8 GB of RAM, it could beat the pants off of our 32 CPU Intel P4 cluster with each of those CPUs running at 2GHz.

      Bulllshit. The P4 was shit, but for any parallelizable load an 8:1 ratio of P4s to Alphas would crush the Alpha. Ergo: you were doing it wrong.

    9. Re:Can I Help Countersue? by damn_registrars · · Score: 1

      I think that tag renders inconsistently some times... or most of the time under some situations.

      --
      Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
    10. Re:Can I Help Countersue? by rubycodez · · Score: 1

      Why do you blame HP? Alpha is a DEC invention. They fucked up their business, then sold a portion including Alpha to Compaq, already planning to phase it out since they were intel customer. The reason Alpha is dead is because your limp dick numb nuts DEC twinks couldn't get it up. suck on it.

    11. Re:Can I Help Countersue? by iggymanz · · Score: 1

      HP didn't kill the Alpha, look it up. DEC failed, sold Alpha to compaq, who already were deciding to phase it out and sold the IP to Intel. that was the knife to the heart of Alpha. HP bought compaq after that, and only planned to continue to sell Alpha to existing customer base with death of it the goal. Blame DEC for failing, blame Compaq for killing. HP just inherited a walking dead zombie.

    12. Re:Can I Help Countersue? by damn_registrars · · Score: 2

      Indeed Compaq killed it more actively than did HP, but when HP bought Compaq they could have changed the direction of its demise if they so desired.

      And I know signatures are automatically offtopic, but I agree with yours - Obama is indeed just another Bush presidency. Which leaves one to wonder why people who so euthusiastically supported Bush are so eagerly doing everything they can to derail Obama.

      --
      Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
    13. Re:Can I Help Countersue? by hughk · · Score: 1

      The reason Alpha is dead is because your limp dick numb nuts DEC twinks couldn't get it up. suck on it.

      Didn't know it was 4chan here? The truth is that HP/Intel Betamaxed Digital. Their chips were crap (until Intel started stealing tech from Digital) but they were good at the low end and had the marketing tie-ups. Unfortunately, we all lost on that one.

      --
      See my journal, I write things there
    14. Re:Can I Help Countersue? by hughk · · Score: 1

      I guess you are too young to have ever used them. Itanium was a totally inferior technology and the only reason Intel could succeed was to kill it via their partnership with HP (the printer ink company). At the time HP bought Alpha to kill it, Itanium wasn't tenable. HP spend a hell of a lot of Intel's money porting over VMS so they could kill Alpha (HP had obligations to support VMS through 2020 or so because of the DoD). The acquisition of Compaq also allowed Intel to use their agreements with HP to legitimise their theft of technology from AMD who had made their own arrangements with Digital.

      Digital's issue was they never properly understood the mass market. They couldn't bring the chip price down fast enough whereas Intel could always cross-subsidize their higher performance lines from their consumer channels. On the scientific and commercial side they were loved by their users. They worked, and they worked extremely well. This is why they ended up as the processors in most of the world's major financial exchanges as well as in the labs.

      few of us would have issue if HP/Intel had out-teched Alpha, but instead it was down to some very dubious machinations which stank of monopolistic abuse. Oh and forget the Thz, the Alpha was best compared with SPARC or ARM so instructions were being executed with just a few clocks.

      --
      See my journal, I write things there
  11. Let the games ... continue. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There's a certain amount of FUD in Oracle's comments. Yet, the reason why the FUD could be so successful is that it's so plausible. Taking the figures from Wikipedia as gospel, the four top architectures for enterprise deployment in 2008 were (in order, first to fourth) x86-64, POWER, SPARC, and Itanium (or Itanic, if you prefer - as I do.) That being the case, it's eminently possible that Itanic is (as the nickname suggests) a sinking ship, and that HP and Intel are holding on for as long as they can before they bail, probably to x86-64. Microsoft's bailed - where's the future support for Windows on Itanic? - as has Redhat, leaving HP the only OS vendor supporting Itanic in any significant way (HP-UX, and - to a much lesser extent - VMS and NonStop.)

    So HP has no alternative but to try to fight Oracle's decision as hard as they can. If they don't, it adds to the perception that Itanic is dying. But if they do, it draws attention to Oracle's words. They're between a rock and a hard place.

    My bet? IBM's going nowhere. Oracle is going to stick it out with SPARC for at least the next couple of years; whether they keep developing it or quietly put a transition system in place for Solaris on x86 remains to be seen. If any of the remaining big Unix vendors are going to abandon their custom platform in the next five to ten years (and probably the market to boot in the process), it'll be HP. Considering that they killed Alpha, I'd say it's nothing more than they deserve.

  12. It seems pretty obvious by Chris453 · · Score: 1

    IANAL but it seems to me that if you have a contract with someone that says you are going to support their hardware they have already purchased, then it is irrelevant that the hardware vendor *might* be discontinuing the product. Even *IF* Intel discontinues it, Oracle should still be bound by their support contracts.

    1. Re:It seems pretty obvious by UnknowingFool · · Score: 2

      The problem is that it's not clear that it was a written contract. My reading of the whole situation is that HP says Oracle "agreed" to continue supporting Itanium with Oracle saying it never said that it would. I'm hearing at most verbal agreements and the parties are not in agreement as to what they said.

      --
      Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
    2. Re:It seems pretty obvious by rubycodez · · Score: 2

      Oracle will continue to support existing Oracle Itanium software for existing customers. http://www.oracle.com/us/corporate/press/346696

  13. YANAL by Anne+Honime · · Score: 1

    I confirm, you are not a lawyer. Breaching contracts and having our clients let go off scott free is the basis of our business.

    1. Re:YANAL by itsdapead · · Score: 1

      I confirm, you are not a lawyer. Breaching contracts and having our clients let go off scott free is the basis of our business.

      I'm sure the contract will actually say that Oracle definitely might promise unconditionally (subject to conditions) to support itanium (for a given, and very long, definition of "support") except as provided in Annexes II, IV, XVII, XXIVI (and any subsequent annexes) until such time as they cease to support it (which shall not be before such time has elapsed) unless otherwise compelled not to by a reasonable cause to discontinue support (including such reasonable causes as might be deemed unreasonable by the party who is not party to the cause). Except they'll probably do that by listing all the things that they won't support then excluding the ones that they do. Or vice versa.

      ...which may be hard for a layperson to understand, but is actually a shining example of how precise and unambiguous legal language can be, as evidenced by the fact that none of these expensively-drawn-up contracts ever end up being contested in court.

      --
      In a survey of 100 programmers, 111111 thought that duck-typing was a good idea.
  14. What about Poulson? by Dishwasha · · Score: 2

    If Itanium is dead, then why does Intel have all this architectural investment?

    1. Re:What about Poulson? by rubycodez · · Score: 1

      Executives do all manner of things to justify their horrible decisions, throwing good money after bad after worse. Even though Itanium sales a trickle compared to the forecast and promised tens of billions a year, Intel and HP won't admit their stupidity.

  15. Yawn by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Does anyone care about anachronisms like OpenVMS anymore? Or the two zombie platforms it's supported on?

  16. Ha on HP by Sabalon · · Score: 1

    For everytime I had to call for support, or try to use their itrc, or everytime I had to come up with a model number from a device that had 20 different numbers on it, none of them matching the format they expected, for everytime I had to deal with HPUX...serves them right.

  17. Who can get fired that buys Intel? HP? Oracle? by shoppa · · Score: 1

    The Mongolian cluster-fuck that the Intel-HP-Oracle triangle centered around Itanium has become, was spotted way way before any of their management drank the Kool-Aid. (And oh man, they were guzzling the Itanium Kool-Aid by the gallon). Google "Itanic".

    1. Re:Who can get fired that buys Intel? HP? Oracle? by rubycodez · · Score: 1

      Most Oracle customers don't run on Itanium anyways, it's a freak side show. Solaris and Linux dominate Oracle server market.

  18. Itanic updates on WSUS by EXrider · · Score: 0

    I just wish f'ing MS would give me a damn checkbox in WSUS to exclude Itanic updates so I could quit wasting time and bandwidth downloading and excluding updates for a dead platform that nobody uses.

    --
    grep -iw skynet /etc/services
  19. Contract by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

    So, do they have a contractual obligation to keep the port going or not? Whether it's a dead architecture doesn't matter if they took the money and there's no 'dead architecture' clause in the contract.

    Hey, Oracle guys: talk to the Redhat Itanium team. Last I heard they were passing the hat around the office and were going to buy the remaining few Itanium machines left in the world and throw them off the roof at HQ (and then promptly recycle the remains, I'm sure).

    --
    My God, it's Full of Source!
    OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    1. Re:Contract by rubycodez · · Score: 1

      we'll have to see the contract, but I suspect Oracle can quite rightly claim that portions of the planned Itanium design never appeared, this chip Intel is making is not an Itanium as defined years ago

  20. If Itanium is an endangered species by WaffleMonster · · Score: 1

    The same could easily be said about the sparc architecture.

    1. Re:If Itanium is an endangered species by rubycodez · · Score: 1

      HP whined about future of 140,000 claimed integrity customers, the Sparc space is shrinking but is over ten times that.

  21. Itanium was kinda a success for Intel by ron_ivi · · Score: 1

    > why is Intel continuing to beat the obviously VERY dead horse that is Itanic? Its a giant flop,

    When you look at it from a Marketing point of view, Itanium was perhaps the most successful chip in history -- not because it sold well, but because it bought time for x86 to move into 64-bit computing.

    Recall that a few years back there were a number of promising 64-bit architectures that were a lot cleaner than Itanium. HP's PA-RISC and SGI's MIPS were two of them. Yet even before production Itanium chips launched, the CEO of SGI and the Executive VP of computers at HP made the decisions to move away from HPUX-on-PA-RISC and IRIX-on-MIPS in favor of NT on Itanium, pretty much killing their entire computing product lines, and killing R&D on the server versions of both chip families.

    Seems the guy (yeah, same guy) who made those decisions was rewarded with a President and COO job at Microsoft a bit later.

    Intel may not have won with actual sales of Itanium hardware (and I wonder if it even wanted to - from it's point of view X86 was even better because HP had some joint-ownership-rights in Itanium). But it sure won by killing the competitions 64-bit computing roadmaps from the PR of Itanium alone.

    http://quiller8771.blog.com/2011/05/26/double-s-fall-it-technology-in-the-market/
    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/05/13/sgi_belluzzo/

  22. How Pathetic by rubycodez · · Score: 1

    HP has to beg a single vendor to continue producing wares for it's dying chip, because that is the only remaining justification for producing servers based on Itanium. Give it up already HP. Oracle has no such contractual obligation.

  23. Contract is a contract by nurb432 · · Score: 1

    I don't care if they contacted to support an Atari 800 for 40 more years. If they breach contract they are liable for damages. That the Itanium is going away is not relevant to the discussion at all. They agreed to do it, so they have to. ( unless there was some special clause in there tied to availability from Intel, which it sounds like there was not )

    --
    ---- Booth was a patriot ----
    1. Re:Contract is a contract by iggymanz · · Score: 1

      So you're accepting HP's word at face value that there *was* a contract? Oracle says their was not, but just "talk" last september. Since they are both run by greedy evil lying sacks of shit, I'm curious why you'd believe any particular one.

  24. It's sad... by TaleSpinner · · Score: 2

    Apollo Computer was shipping the 64-bit PRISM workstation when they were bought by HP. HP killed the PRISM because they were going to do their own 64-bit architecture.

    Digital was shipping the 64 bit Alpha machine when they were bought by Compaq which was then bought by HP. HP killed the Alpha because they were committing to Intel's Itanium.

    So what happens? HP, the owner of two, market-proven, debugged and viable 64 bit architectures finds itself backing the loser, having killed both of the projects they bought and paid for.

    And so, what is HP's 64 bit architecture in the end? The x86_64.

    You've really got to wonder what kind of idiots were running the company.

    1. Re:It's sad... by iggymanz · · Score: 1

      Compaq began the killing of the Alpha, and sold the IP to Intel, before HP ever got its mitts on it. Blame DEC for not being able to stay in business.

  25. Pentium 2/3/4 are worse than Pentium Pro. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When Digital Equipment Corporation had a 500MHz 21164 Alpha at 83MHz bus is when Intel was still at a 100MHz clock and 33MHz bus. Intel reverse-engineered much of Digital's technology to inspire (if not obfuscate their plagiarism) into what would become Pentium 4.

    The capabilities of the Pentium Pro was that the on-die cache was operating at the clock speed of the CPU, thus a 200MHz Pentium Pro with 256KB (upwards to 512KB and 1024KB) would operate at 200MHz rather than it's plain 66MHz bus, yet the Pentium 2 400MHz CPU had a 100MHz bus that it's cache operated at significantly lower than the Pentium Pro.

      Not to mention that DEC had discovered their 21164 had a technical glitch that when minorly corrected became their 21264 Alpha and was the first in history(1999) to reach 1GHz and even a 100MHz bus with 256bit access while Intel Pentium was still on 64bit access. You see minor chip revisions like 21164a/b/c but then the company engineers completely overlooked something else, and fixed in in the 21264 line, but in reality DEC by design had the first 1GHz processor as eartly as 1995. It's sad today that we know we had the capability of technology under our noses as early as 1995 that could run Doom3 in SOFTWARE RENDERING. By buying cheaper Intel and AMD hardware, a true AMERICAN company on fabrication lines in The United States, DEC was pilfered by Intel-bribed engineers and liquidated from buy-out to buy-out to inferior technolgy that didn't even use the full capacity of system RAM or anything right. When DEC's original CEO Olsen (if I remember correctly) stepped out of the company by some god-damn transients, then the company was mothballed.

    Intel is the biggest peice of shit to ever exist, as though they were never realy in the business of designing and fabricating chips but to use money to bribe everyone into their monstrous legal image and claim as their own, while true American companies started building from the ground-up. All of this is in fassion of a weird Israel-first cult ever since Germany and Russia got hit hard by a common enemy (rhymes with guess Who) after World War 2.

    1. Re:Pentium 2/3/4 are worse than Pentium Pro. by Kalriath · · Score: 1

      It's people like you that are the reason the world hates America. Take your racist bigotry, and piss off.

      --
      For a site about things like basic rights, Slashdot users sure do like to censor "dissent".
  26. Poulson is a Fight Club reference. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "In a death, a member of Fight Club has a name. This man's name is Robert Paulson."

  27. HP shot themselves by killing PA-RISC by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Well, @ the time HP had their agreement w/ Intel, they were the only ones w/ any significant VLIW expertise (having bought both Multiflow & Cydrome), and there was a many horse race w/ Alpha, Power, MIPS IV and Sparc. So HP wanted a compelling selling point for their processor, and saw it in getting in w/ Intel.

    So HP's loyalty to Itanium precedes their acquisition of Compaq and the Alpha, and even if HP didn't have any Itanium plans, there was no reason to prefer Alpha to PA-RISC. Compaq acquiring DEC made little sense given their non-support to the Alpha. Acer or someone like that should have bought DEC - Alpha would still be around today.

    Of course, @ the time, few predicted that ARM would end up being the RISC standard. As a result, Microsoft has no advantage over Apple or Google as it does apps for different platforms, be it x86-64 or ARM. Had MS supported MIPS to this day, they could have used the new Prodigy architecture for their Windows 8 platform, for which they wanted a native 64-bit processor, which ARM doesn't have, thereby locking them to Intel.

    As for this dispute, Oracle probably ain't willfully sabotaging HP - they're just being lazy about supporting an outgoing platform. In any company, the marketing people want to accelerate the transition from old to new, and Oracle is probably being accurate when they say they've stopped bug fixes in the older version, since they have probably diverted all their dev teams to the newer one. Co-incidentally, they won't be supporting Itanium on the newer version, which is a sound business decision - Microsoft won't be supporting Itanium on Windows Server 201x, Red Hat won't be supporting Itanium in future versions, and I believe neither will Suse. So Oracle ends up looking like they're trying to replace customers' Integrity servers w/ their own Sparc servers, but any customer would be stupid to make such a switch, given their investment in such hardware. Instead, such customers should look @ switching to alternatives. Is SAP supported on Integrity servers?

    So the only thing Itanium will be running will be HP-UX, for which HP needn't have killed PA-RISC in the first place. Essentially, what this chapter shows is that VLIW is probably a great architecture for DSPs, graphics accelerators and ASICs, but horrible as a general purpose CPU, given that every compiler that compiles code for it would have to do a lot more than a RISC or CISC compiler would, like scheduling instructions, maximizing the parallelism, etc. For the application specific purposes, there are only a limited set of routines that need to be so optimally compiled. For a general purpose CPU, that scope is unlimited.

    Is it too late for HP to resurrect the PA-RISC and resume selling their Unix servers w/ that? B'cos nobody else, not even SGI, now sells Itanium systems, and even Cray has gone w/ Opteron.

  28. Why should HP have preferred Alpha over PA? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As iggymanz noted, Alpha died when the IP was sold to Intel, along w/ the fabs. There were some initiatives like Alphapowered, which went nowhere.

    At any rate, Compaq could have taken the Alpha and joined the ranks of IBM, HP and Sun as owners of a major architecture, but they didn't. Instead, they remained an x86 house, and only made use of DEC's legendary service lines. It was under them that support for NT was dropped, and once that happened, the architecture was dead: people were not going to prefer OSF/1 to HP/UX or AIX, let alone Solaris or Linux.

    When HP did acquire Compaq, they still had the PA-RISC, which was @ par w/ the Alpha, and had more widespread industry support, since HP/UX had been around from the days of Ultrix. So they would have been stupid to support Alpha for new business, and just supported legacy business w/ it.

    I agree that it's tragic that the Alpha is dead, but I blame Microsoft mainly for its short vision. Today, they're said to be wanting a 64-bit processor for Windows 8, and ARM has nothing, thereby locking them to x86-64. Had MS never dropped support for MIPS and Alpha, they could have used something like Prodigy for their Windows 8 tablets, and Alpha (it would not have been dropped even by Compaq had it been successful) for Windows 8 workstations & servers.

    1. Re:Why should HP have preferred Alpha over PA? by damn_registrars · · Score: 2

      It was under them that support for NT was dropped, and once that happened, the architecture was dead: people were not going to prefer OSF/1 to HP/UX or AIX, let alone Solaris or Linux.

      I never really understood why anyone wanted NT for the Alpha anyways. There was so little of anything useful that could be done with NT back in the day, in comparison to what you could do in *nix with an Alpha. HP/UX was great on the Alpha, although we eventually setup Linux on ours to make it easier to install binaries for new software.

      In the end I just don't see the Alpha making sense for a Windows user, any more than I see Windows making sense as a serious computational environment - which is where the Alpha was best suited.

      --
      Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
  29. Why a new RISC? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Itanium is not VLIW, it's EPIC. Some differences (from Wiki):

    Each group of multiple software instructions is called a bundle. Each of the bundles has a stop bit indicating if this set of operations is depended upon by the subsequent bundle. With this capability, future implementations can be built to issue multiple bundles in parallel. The dependency information is calculated by the compiler, so the hardware does not have to perform operand dependency checking.

    A software prefetch instruction is used as a type of data prefetch. This prefetch increases the chances for a cache hit for loads, and can indicate the degree of temporal locality needed in various levels of the cache.

    A speculative load instruction is used to speculatively load data before it is known whether it will be used (bypassing control dependencies), or whether it will be modified before it is used (bypassing data dependencies).

    A check load instruction aids speculative loads by checking whether a speculative load was dependent on a later store, and thus must be reloaded.

    If they do what you're saying, that will make them RISC. Why would HP accept that, when they could just dust off the PA-7200 and pick up from there? They'd then regain the advantage they had over Sun/Oracle in terms of performance, and at least have more of an user base.

    Also, VLIW was mainly HP's IP - acquired from Multiflow & Cydrome. Not Intel's. It's Intel, though, that's changed it from VLIW to EPIC.

  30. Linux on SPARC by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Isn't Linux already on Sparc, courtesy Sun? Why would Oracle have to port another distribution to it? And I'm not even counting other unixes that run on SPARC, such as Red Hat, Debian, the BSDs, and so on: as far as unixes go, Sparc has about as much support as x86, and the stuff it doesn't have - Unixware, AIX, OSF/1, it doesn't need.

    It's true that Sun did do a good job parallelizing the platform. It also has the widest range of legacy apps for any Unix - from CAD/CAM stuff right down to Enterprise stuff. Oracle recognized it, and has done a good job so far supporting it. Also, Sun had adopted the Opteron as one of its platforms, and Oracle has that as well for its Enterprise Linux. Just that they'd do well to encourage others who support Sparc, like Red Hat, to keep supporting it. I don't see how, though, given that they're competing w/ Red Hat on 2 dimensions.

    Incidentally, what happened to the EU's objection to Oracle buying Sun re: its ending up w/ 2 major databases - Oracle and MySQL? Does that mean that Oracle gets to choose who MySQL supports, and who it doesn't? Looks like a major conflict of interests.

  31. Where Itanium failed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Oracle are lying about what? There can't be more than a few hundred Itanium users around the world, and Intel has been signaling for years that the product line is dead and won't be replaced. Maybe HP shouldn't have shut down its own CPU development and sold its designs (along with the designs of the DEC Alpha) to Intel, but they did. Now that product line has failed and Oracle is just making an obvious business decision.

    sPh

    Uh, DEC had already sold all Alpha-related intellectual property, along w/ the StrongARM, to Intel. There was nothing for HP to sell except PA-RISC IP, which wouldn't have done much for Intel since they already had the Alpha IP. Only thing that Intel thought might be useful to them was VLIW expertise, but they turned out to be wrong about that.

    HP's mistake was closing down PA-RISC, thereby making HP/UX a new OS once again. Had they kept PA-RISC, HP/UX would have been a more mature OS than even Solaris/Sparc. Itanium would have made sense had all those other OSs been ported to it and been successful, giving HP a range of choices in addition to HP/UX, but a lot of those, like SCO's Monterrey, dropped like flies. Incidentally, anyone remember whether Solaris was ever ported to it? Porting OVMS or NonStop to this platform was one of the most worthless things Compaq ever did - as someone else pointed out, Compaq could have just retained the 21364 and made MPP systems out of it w/ no new R&D, and used it for existing OVMS customers, as well as ported NonStop to that. In fact, it would even have been a good platform for XP-64.

    So now, Itanium is just a new CPU for an OS that used to run on a totally different RISC CPU? Looks like such a waste. But if Intel drops it, they'll look like a mere second source to AMD.

  32. How would HP be different? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... if they were to drop their Integrity servers.

    I mean, granted, they have the Proliant servers and other legacy x86 servers. But so does everyone else. Why would someone prefer an HP to a Dell, or even a Cisco, when those companies have fewer vested interests than HP or Oracle?

    Right now, their variety is one of their selling points - HP/UX-Integrity, Windows-Server-x864, and until now, both Linux & Windows-Server on Integrity as well as x864. But if they were to drop Integrity, how'd they be any different?

    HP used to have NEXTSTEP as one of their options on the PA-RISC. Can they take something like the GNUstep OS and try building another platform for Integrity? Or how about Integrity based workstations, running Debian or GNUstep? Or try getting Cray interested?

  33. pissed you off. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Biggots is the name of a chain store that bought-up Big Lots, is it not?

    You mad!

  34. Better talk to Jeremiah Cornelius then by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    1. Re:Better talk to Jeremiah Cornelius then by Kalriath · · Score: 1

      Fuck off, APK. Your hosts file stuff I can live with, but I draw the line at racist trolling you piece of crap.

      (Note: not Jewish, or American).

      --
      For a site about things like basic rights, Slashdot users sure do like to censor "dissent".
  35. TRUTH ABOUT JEWS FROM THEIR OWN TALMUD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://www.waylanderskeep.com/2009/12/jewish-talmud-quotes/

    ===

    1. Sanhedrin 59a: "Murdering Goyim is like killing a wild animal."

    2. Abodah Zara 26b: "Even the best of the Gentiles should be killed."

    3. Sanhedrin 59a: "A goy (Gentile) who pries into The Law (Talmud) is guilty of death."

    4. Libbre David 37: "To communicate anything to a Goy about our religious relations would be equal to the killing of all Jews, for if the Goyim knew what we teach about them, they would kill us openly."

    5. Libbre David 37: "If a Jew be called upon to explain any part of the rabbinic books, he ought to give only a false explanation. Who ever will violate this order shall be put to death."

    6. Yebhamoth 11b: "Sexual intercourse with a little girl is permitted if she is three years of age."

    7. Schabouth Hag. 6d: "Jews may swear falsely by use of subterfuge wording."

    8. Hilkkoth Akum X1: "Do not save Goyim in danger of death."

    9. Hilkkoth Akum X1: "Show no mercy to the Goyim."

    10. Choschen Hamm 388, 15: "If it can be proven that someone has given the money of Israelites to the Goyim, a way must be found after prudent consideration to wipe him off the face of the earth."

    11. Choschen Hamm 266,1: "A Jew may keep anything he finds which belongs to the Akum (Gentile). For he who returns lost property (to Gentiles) sins against the Law by increasing the power of the transgressors of the Law. It is praiseworthy, however, to return lost property if it is done to honor the name of God, namely, if by so doing, Christians will praise the Jews and look upon them as honorable people."

    12. Szaaloth-Utszabot, The Book of Jore Dia 17: "A Jew should and must make a false oath when the Goyim asks if our books contain anything against them."

    13. Baba Necia 114, 6: "The Jews are human beings, but the nations of the world are not human beings but beasts."

    14. Simeon Haddarsen, fol. 56-D: "When the Messiah comes every Jew will have 2800 slaves."

    15. Nidrasch Talpioth, p. 225-L: "Jehovah created the non-Jew in human form so that the Jew would not have to be served by beasts. The non-Jew is consequently an animal in human form, and condemned to serve the Jew day and night."

    16. Aboda Sarah 37a: "A Gentile girl who is three years old can be violated."

    17. Gad. Shas. 2:2: "A Jew may violate but not marry a non-Jewish girl."

    18. Tosefta. Aboda Zara B, 5: "If a goy kills a goy or a Jew, he is responsible; but if a Jew kills a goy, he is NOT responsible."

    19. Schulchan Aruch, Choszen Hamiszpat 388: "It is permitted to kill a Jewish denunciator everywhere. It is permitted to kill him even before he denounces."

    20. Schulchan Aruch, Choszen Hamiszpat 348: "All property of other nations belongs to the Jewish nation, which, consequently, is entitled to seize upon it without any scruples."

    21. Tosefta, Abda Zara VIII, 5: "How to interpret the word 'robbery.' A goy is forbidden to steal, rob, or take women slaves, etc., from a goy or from a Jew. But a Jew is NOT forbidden to do all this to a goy."

    22. Seph. Jp., 92, 1: "God has given the Jews power over the possessions and blood of all nations."

    23. Schulchan Aruch, Choszen Hamiszpat 156: "When a Jew has a Gentile in his clutches, another Jew may go to the same Gentile, lend him money and in turn deceive him, so that the Gentile shall be ruined. For the property of a Gentile, according to our law, belongs to no one, and the first Jew that passes has full right to seize it."

    24. Schulchan Aruch, Johre Deah, 122: "A Jew is forbidden to drink from a glass of wine which a Gentile has touched, because the touch has made the wine unclean."

    25. Nedarim 23b: "He who desires that none of his vows made during the year be valid, let him stand at the beginning of the year and declare, 'Every vow which I may make in the future shall be null'. His vows are then invalid."

  36. TRUTH ABOUT JEWS FROM THEIR TALMUD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://www.waylanderskeep.com/2009/12/jewish-talmud-quotes/

    ===

    1. Sanhedrin 59a: "Murdering Goyim is like killing a wild animal."

    2. Abodah Zara 26b: "Even the best of the Gentiles should be killed."

    3. Sanhedrin 59a: "A goy (Gentile) who pries into The Law (Talmud) is guilty of death."

    4. Libbre David 37: "To communicate anything to a Goy about our religious relations would be equal to the killing of all Jews, for if the Goyim knew what we teach about them, they would kill us openly."

    5. Libbre David 37: "If a Jew be called upon to explain any part of the rabbinic books, he ought to give only a false explanation. Who ever will violate this order shall be put to death."

    6. Yebhamoth 11b: "Sexual intercourse with a little girl is permitted if she is three years of age."

    7. Schabouth Hag. 6d: "Jews may swear falsely by use of subterfuge wording."

    8. Hilkkoth Akum X1: "Do not save Goyim in danger of death."

    9. Hilkkoth Akum X1: "Show no mercy to the Goyim."

    10. Choschen Hamm 388, 15: "If it can be proven that someone has given the money of Israelites to the Goyim, a way must be found after prudent consideration to wipe him off the face of the earth."

    11. Choschen Hamm 266,1: "A Jew may keep anything he finds which belongs to the Akum (Gentile). For he who returns lost property (to Gentiles) sins against the Law by increasing the power of the transgressors of the Law. It is praiseworthy, however, to return lost property if it is done to honor the name of God, namely, if by so doing, Christians will praise the Jews and look upon them as honorable people."

    12. Szaaloth-Utszabot, The Book of Jore Dia 17: "A Jew should and must make a false oath when the Goyim asks if our books contain anything against them."

    13. Baba Necia 114, 6: "The Jews are human beings, but the nations of the world are not human beings but beasts."

    14. Simeon Haddarsen, fol. 56-D: "When the Messiah comes every Jew will have 2800 slaves."

    15. Nidrasch Talpioth, p. 225-L: "Jehovah created the non-Jew in human form so that the Jew would not have to be served by beasts. The non-Jew is consequently an animal in human form, and condemned to serve the Jew day and night."

    16. Aboda Sarah 37a: "A Gentile girl who is three years old can be violated."

    17. Gad. Shas. 2:2: "A Jew may violate but not marry a non-Jewish girl."

    18. Tosefta. Aboda Zara B, 5: "If a goy kills a goy or a Jew, he is responsible; but if a Jew kills a goy, he is NOT responsible."

    19. Schulchan Aruch, Choszen Hamiszpat 388: "It is permitted to kill a Jewish denunciator everywhere. It is permitted to kill him even before he denounces."

    20. Schulchan Aruch, Choszen Hamiszpat 348: "All property of other nations belongs to the Jewish nation, which, consequently, is entitled to seize upon it without any scruples."

    21. Tosefta, Abda Zara VIII, 5: "How to interpret the word 'robbery.' A goy is forbidden to steal, rob, or take women slaves, etc., from a goy or from a Jew. But a Jew is NOT forbidden to do all this to a goy."

    22. Seph. Jp., 92, 1: "God has given the Jews power over the possessions and blood of all nations."

    23. Schulchan Aruch, Choszen Hamiszpat 156: "When a Jew has a Gentile in his clutches, another Jew may go to the same Gentile, lend him money and in turn deceive him, so that the Gentile shall be ruined. For the property of a Gentile, according to our law, belongs to no one, and the first Jew that passes has full right to seize it."

    24. Schulchan Aruch, Johre Deah, 122: "A Jew is forbidden to drink from a glass of wine which a Gentile has touched, because the touch has made the wine unclean."

    25. Nedarim 23b: "He who desires that none of his vows made during the year be valid, let him stand at the beginning of the year and declare, 'Every vow which I may make in the future shall be null'. His vows are then invalid."

  37. TRUTH ABOUT JEWS FROM THEIR TALMUD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://www.waylanderskeep.com/2009/12/jewish-talmud-quotes/

    Goyims, Gentiles, and Akum are anyone non-jewish.

    ===

    1. Sanhedrin 59a: "Murdering Goyim is like killing a wild animal."

    2. Abodah Zara 26b: "Even the best of the Gentiles should be killed."

    3. Sanhedrin 59a: "A goy (Gentile) who pries into The Law (Talmud) is guilty of death."

    4. Libbre David 37: "To communicate anything to a Goy about our religious relations would be equal to the killing of all Jews, for if the Goyim knew what we teach about them, they would kill us openly."

    5. Libbre David 37: "If a Jew be called upon to explain any part of the rabbinic books, he ought to give only a false explanation. Who ever will violate this order shall be put to death."

    6. Yebhamoth 11b: "Sexual intercourse with a little girl is permitted if she is three years of age."

    7. Schabouth Hag. 6d: "Jews may swear falsely by use of subterfuge wording."

    8. Hilkkoth Akum X1: "Do not save Goyim in danger of death."

    9. Hilkkoth Akum X1: "Show no mercy to the Goyim."

    10. Choschen Hamm 388, 15: "If it can be proven that someone has given the money of Israelites to the Goyim, a way must be found after prudent consideration to wipe him off the face of the earth."

    11. Choschen Hamm 266,1: "A Jew may keep anything he finds which belongs to the Akum (Gentile). For he who returns lost property (to Gentiles) sins against the Law by increasing the power of the transgressors of the Law. It is praiseworthy, however, to return lost property if it is done to honor the name of God, namely, if by so doing, Christians will praise the Jews and look upon them as honorable people."

    12. Szaaloth-Utszabot, The Book of Jore Dia 17: "A Jew should and must make a false oath when the Goyim asks if our books contain anything against them."

    13. Baba Necia 114, 6: "The Jews are human beings, but the nations of the world are not human beings but beasts."

    14. Simeon Haddarsen, fol. 56-D: "When the Messiah comes every Jew will have 2800 slaves."

    15. Nidrasch Talpioth, p. 225-L: "Jehovah created the non-Jew in human form so that the Jew would not have to be served by beasts. The non-Jew is consequently an animal in human form, and condemned to serve the Jew day and night."

    16. Aboda Sarah 37a: "A Gentile girl who is three years old can be violated."

    17. Gad. Shas. 2:2: "A Jew may violate but not marry a non-Jewish girl."

    18. Tosefta. Aboda Zara B, 5: "If a goy kills a goy or a Jew, he is responsible; but if a Jew kills a goy, he is NOT responsible."

    19. Schulchan Aruch, Choszen Hamiszpat 388: "It is permitted to kill a Jewish denunciator everywhere. It is permitted to kill him even before he denounces."

    20. Schulchan Aruch, Choszen Hamiszpat 348: "All property of other nations belongs to the Jewish nation, which, consequently, is entitled to seize upon it without any scruples."

    21. Tosefta, Abda Zara VIII, 5: "How to interpret the word 'robbery.' A goy is forbidden to steal, rob, or take women slaves, etc., from a goy or from a Jew. But a Jew is NOT forbidden to do all this to a goy."

    22. Seph. Jp., 92, 1: "God has given the Jews power over the possessions and blood of all nations."

    23. Schulchan Aruch, Choszen Hamiszpat 156: "When a Jew has a Gentile in his clutches, another Jew may go to the same Gentile, lend him money and in turn deceive him, so that the Gentile shall be ruined. For the property of a Gentile, according to our law, belongs to no one, and the first Jew that passes has full right to seize it."

    24. Schulchan Aruch, Johre Deah, 122: "A Jew is forbidden to drink from a glass of wine which a Gentile has touched, because the touch has made the wine unclean."

    25. Nedarim 23b: "He who desires that none of his vows made during the year be valid, let him stand at the beginning of the year and declare, 'Every vow which I may make in the future shall be null'. His vows are then invalid."