Email In Oracle-Google Case Will Remain Public

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Email In Oracle-Google Case Will Remain Public

Posted by timothy on Monday August 1, 2011 @10:53PM from the cannot-unring-that-bell dept.

itwbennett writes "When last we left the Oracle/Google patent infringement saga, Oracle had been ordered by Judge William Alsup to lower its claim for damages to $100 million, give or take. Today Judge Alsup denied Google's attempt to get a potentially damaging e-mail redacted. 'What we've actually been asked to do by Larry and Sergey is to investigate what technology alternatives exist to Java for Android and Chrome,' Google engineer Tim Lindholm wrote in the Aug. 2010 e-mail. 'We've been over a hundred of these and think they all suck. We conclude that we need to negotiate a license for Java.'"

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2010 is pretty late in the game by MichaelSmith · 2011-08-01 23:15 · Score: 4, Insightful

It fits if google were thinking oh shit oracle have their hands on java we are screwed get us out, but its not like right at the start they were rubbing their hands with glee we know we have to pay for a license but we are not going to.

--
http://michaelsmith.id.au
1. Re:2010 is pretty late in the game by bonch · 2011-08-02 05:13 · Score: 1
  
  If it's no big deal, why did Google want it redacted, and why did the judge say it would be a blow to their case?
Not incriminating by wintercolby · 2011-08-01 23:19 · Score: 5, Informative

August 2010 is much later than when Oracle bought Sun and long after Android was initially announced. In fact, all this email was sent just 2 days before Oracle filed their lawsuit.

--
Most ignorance is vincible ignorance. We don't know because we don't want to know. --Aldous Huxley
1. Re:Not incriminating by Chrisq · 2011-08-01 23:24 · Score: 5, Informative
  
  ... In fact, all this email was sent just 2 days before Oracle filed their lawsuit.
  Or maybe not sent. from TFA:
  
  Oracle also implied that Lindholm's e-mail had actually been sent, but in fact it was an incomplete draft, Google added.
  . Probably someone thought "oh shit Oracle have brought Sun", started to suggest that they got a license when someone else pointed out to them that they didn't need to.
2. Re:Not incriminating by Kagetsuki · 2011-08-01 23:26 · Score: 1
  
  Following the story thus far I'd guess that's probably about what happened.
3. Re:Not incriminating by Pollardito · 2011-08-02 02:53 · Score: 1
  
  It doesn't make sense that this email was a start of a suggestion that they get a license, since it seems to be the culmination of them going through "a hundred of these" alternatives to Java and discounting them all. Whoever sent the email saying that they should look through a hundred alternatives to Java (TFA says that it's Larry and Sergey) was already considering whether or not they should get a license. It seems like if they were confident that they still wouldn't need a license they wouldn't have initiated what must have been a fairly large process of checking alternatives.
4. Re:Not incriminating by gstrickler · 2011-08-02 03:58 · Score: 1
  
  And, it's not a legal opinion on whether they actually need to license Java (which Oracle was already asserting), but rather a technical opinion about Java vs the alternatives. It's not damaging if you bother to examine it at all.
  
  --
  make imaginary.friends COUNT=100 VISIBLE=false
5. Re:Not incriminating by bonch · 2011-08-02 05:12 · Score: 1
  
  If it's not incriminating, why did Google try to have it redacted? I guess all the Slashdot lawyers are going to tell us.
6. Re:Not incriminating by MikeBabcock · 2011-08-02 05:16 · Score: 1
  
  Lots of things can be taken wrong. That's why you have the right to remain silent -- you might say something that incriminates yourself when you don't intend to.
  If you have something that can look to be bad, even if you know it wasn't intended that way, you'd still want it off the record.
  
  --
  - Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
7. Re:Not incriminating by Anonymous Coward · 2011-08-02 05:31 · Score: 0
  
  More likely, they knew Oracle's history with open source and attempting to gouge customers/users of those open source products for everything they're worth and realized they'd better start looking for alternatives (once they heard Oracle was going to buy Sun/Java).
8. Re:Not incriminating by gstrickler · 2011-08-02 05:37 · Score: 2
  
  Oracle was already demanding that they pay for a license. They didn't just file the lawsuit without discussing licensing with Google first. Google said "we don't need a license", Oracle said "Yes you do." Google initiated a search for alternatives as a precaution. Since this document is a technical evaluation of the suitability of the alternatives for their specific use and not a legal opinion about whether or not they actually need a license, this document is not incriminating at all once you spend 2 minutes to examine the situation.
  
  --
  make imaginary.friends COUNT=100 VISIBLE=false
9. Re:Not incriminating by Runaway1956 · 2011-08-02 06:31 · Score: 1
  
  Since I'm not a Google basher, I read that to mean, "Hey, we've been looking at technology ever since we started this business. There are hundred of alternatives to Java - but they all SUCK!" I don't see a "smoking gun" showing that Google was avoiding licensing Java. In fact - that blog posting by Sun's CEO, congratulating Google for using Java seems to imply that no license was needed.
  
  --
  "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
Mono by Anonymous Coward · 2011-08-01 23:20 · Score: 0

Maybe Miguel will have the last laugh.
Oops, I just noticed that was number #83 on Tim's list.
We've been over a hundred of these... by slidersv · 2011-08-01 23:23 · Score: 0, Troll

From the article: "We've been over a hundred of these and think they all suck" They forgot to mention that Java sucks just as well.

--
there is no issue with my network
1. Re:We've been over a hundred of these... by Kagetsuki · 2011-08-01 23:34 · Score: 2
  
  ZING! But there's an NDK for Android as well, so it's not like you have to use Java anyway. There's even a way to write apps in Ruby now. Oh, and apparently you can sell AIR apps through the Android market as well. Realistically at this point Android doesn't really need Java at all, but it's too late for them to take it out. I personally think they should have done all the base components native, made an X11 like protocol for communication between widgets and apps and whatever, and then just told everyone to go for it. If that were the case using a VM based language would spare you some headaches, but even then you wouldn't be tied to Java as Ruby, Python, AIR/AS3, and a whole bunch of others would work just the same.
  On a side note, I'm a bit ashamed to admit it but the SDK for Android running in Eclipse is really really nice and they've streamlined all the Java stuff and added enough libraries that things are pretty easy to understand and work with. I would have preferred something other than Java, and in general I'm a VIM/Makefile kind of guy so the whole IDE thing still puts me off but still I have to admit they did a great job.
  One more thing: Fuck you Oracle!
2. Re:We've been over a hundred of these... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-08-01 23:36 · Score: 1
  
  Tim Lindholm ".. was the Architect of the Java 2 Platform, Micro Edition (J2ME) and co-author of the Java Virtual Machine Specification.".
  Perhaps he had a slight bias towards Java.
3. Re:We've been over a hundred of these... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-08-01 23:40 · Score: 0
  
  I think he's referring to the Java platform, not the language.
  The Java VM is really good, it does have its flaws, but I'm sure it's better than any bug-ridden, just-out-of-the-oven VM out there.
4. Re:We've been over a hundred of these... by MichaelSmith · 2011-08-01 23:45 · Score: 1
  
  I'm a VIM/Makefile kind of guy so the whole IDE thing still puts me off
  I'm doing android development with nedit and an xterm for compilations. Still using ant though. There is a howto for that. Also in my day job I have to work on this horrible monstrosity through eclipse. Its fucking awful and blame eclipse for many of the developers design decisions.
  
  --
  http://michaelsmith.id.au
5. Re:We've been over a hundred of these... by Threni · 2011-08-01 23:46 · Score: 0
  
  > On a side note, I'm a bit ashamed to admit it but the SDK for Android running in Eclipse
  > is really really nice
  It's just a shame they didn't use NetBeans, because it's Eclipse which sucks. Perhaps I've been spoiled by Visual Studio... for all the abuse Microsoft gets, at least you can do stuff like change the program counter in the IDE to re-run a piece of code.
6. Re:We've been over a hundred of these... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-08-02 00:10 · Score: 0
  
  I don't know how you can suggest NetBeans as a viable alternative to Eclipse, which is admittedly awful.
7. Re:We've been over a hundred of these... by outsider007 · 2011-08-02 00:35 · Score: 1
  
  Jruby and Jython are still Java. Air isn't, but it's kind of a turd.
  
  --
  If you mod me down the terrorists will have won
8. Re:We've been over a hundred of these... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-08-02 00:58 · Score: 2, Informative
  
  ... for all the abuse Microsoft gets, at least you can do stuff like change the program counter in the IDE to re-run a piece of code.
  Don't know whether the Java VM API (JVMTI) would allow setting the PC, but you can use "drop to frame" to start the current method again.
9. Re:We've been over a hundred of these... by Kagetsuki · 2011-08-02 01:00 · Score: 1
  
  I can easily understand that. I haven't tried to do it in VIM with Makefiles etc. because the whole thing is so tied into Eclipse I doubt it would be easy to do at all. Can you get the debug feed outside of Eclipse?
10. Re:We've been over a hundred of these... by Kagetsuki · 2011-08-02 01:04 · Score: 1
  
  Yeah, I was too vague when I said that. The integration in Eclipse is well done. Eclipse itself (editing) is awful. Things like Eclipse automatically adding random lines (like imports) whenever I copy and paste between files? Yeah, that's a terrible feature. Panes/splitting and pane management is very obscure as well. Oh, and tabs are characters, not 4 spaces - seriously fucking stop with the tab conversion.
11. Re:We've been over a hundred of these... by Kagetsuki · 2011-08-02 01:13 · Score: 1
  
  I haven't tried it myself but what I heard about was this: http://code.google.com/p/android-scripting/ . Looks like other than Ruby those are native? Weather or not they're usable is a different question entirely...
  Personally I really like Ruby, but if it runs like mud and can't really do anything through JRuby then I'll have to pass on it.
12. Re:We've been over a hundred of these... by Kagetsuki · 2011-08-02 01:15 · Score: 1
  
  Oh wait, that's not what I had heard of. Apparently you can wrap Ruby scripts in a package with JRuby and run them as apps. Still not so great but I guess it's something?
13. Re:We've been over a hundred of these... by gbjbaanb · 2011-08-02 01:17 · Score: 2
  
  yup, it sounds like the email is a nerd's response to being asked to choose something other than his favourite technology... "we've been over a hundred of these" and the *only* one that I think is good enough is Java, of course. Just be thankful it wasn't someone who thought C# was the ultimate in all language technologies.
  My position: C (maybe C++) would have been ideal for a low-level API that you then build on top of. In whatever language/technology you like once you have that API library established.
14. Re:We've been over a hundred of these... by outsider007 · 2011-08-02 01:18 · Score: 1
  
  I like ruby too, and google uses python in-house, but for android's purposes yes they both suck.
  
  --
  If you mod me down the terrorists will have won
15. Re:We've been over a hundred of these... by JamesP · 2011-08-02 01:23 · Score: 1
  
  Exactly
  Geez, if they think "we think they all suck" this screams 'Javatard' to me. The kind of people that think that everything has to be XML.
  Do they think Python sucks? Go sucks? JS sucks? Ruby sucks? Groovy sucks?
  If they had said "analyzing the several alternatives we think running a JVM is the best option" I would probably agree with them.
  Guess what, Apple made the right bet. Not with iPhone, not with MAC OS X, but back there when it was still NEXT. Objective-C
  Larry and Sergey, learn the lesson, if you depend 100% on Java, things are not going to work out.
  
  --
  how long until /. fixes commenting on Chrome?
16. Re:We've been over a hundred of these... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-08-02 01:27 · Score: 1
  
  It's amazing to me that in this day-and-age ANYONE can claim that VIM & Makefile's are superior development environments to Eclipse, Netbeans, or name your IDE. That's simply B.S.!
  As for the comment "Things like Eclipse automatically adding random lines (like imports) whenever I copy and paste between files? Yeah, that's a terrible feature." is very telling. It screams "YOU HAVE NO IDEA HOW TO USE THESE TOOLS!" Not only can all these behaviors be customized to your particular liking, with a simple click of the "Refactor->Organize Imports" button, the code will be analyzed and ONLY those imports needed will be specified using fully defined package names.
  And for the record, yes I do use VIM & Makefile's now and again for a wide variety of reasons (and have done so for years).
17. Re:We've been over a hundred of these... by JamesP · 2011-08-02 01:33 · Score: 1
  
  ZING! But there's an NDK for Android as well, so it's not like you have to use Java anyway.
  
  yes you have. Yes, it's only a stub, and probably the launch menu, but still.
  
  I personally think they should have done all the base components native, made an X11 like protocol for communication between widgets and apps and whatever, and then just told everyone to go for it. If that were the case using a VM based language would spare you some headaches, but even then you wouldn't be tied to Java as Ruby, Python, AIR/AS3, and a whole bunch of others would work just the same.
  On a side note, I'm a bit ashamed to admit it but the SDK for Android running in Eclipse is really really nice and they've streamlined all the Java stuff and added enough libraries that things are pretty easy to understand and work with. I would have preferred something other than Java, and in general I'm a VIM/Makefile kind of guy so the whole IDE thing still puts me off but still I have to admit they did a great job.
  One more thing: Fuck you Oracle!
  The main problem is not the VM, but that google picked Java and Java libs. I mean, how are going to say 'it's not java' to the Judge!? Yes, they have great lawyers, etc, but still...
  But yeah, technically, I agree on the whole (except for the X11 part, I'm not sure Android even uses X11)
  
  --
  how long until /. fixes commenting on Chrome?
18. Re:We've been over a hundred of these... by bluefoxlucid · 2011-08-02 01:39 · Score: 1
  
  Some of us juggle all that stuff in our heads and have a complete map of our code, which becomes difficult to track when we have to deal with automagic shit or go make amendments or deletions from one side or the other. Others write bits of business logic and string it together, and hope it works; often these people rely on development environments to take care of some of the stringing together.
  
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19. Re:We've been over a hundred of these... by bluefoxlucid · 2011-08-02 01:44 · Score: 1
  
  They don't want to be locked into a low level architecture. What if they had Android/MIPS? I would have gone with ECMA standard CIL, which you can put C# or VB.NET or Java or C on top of by using a compiler with CIL as a target. Java tends to accept... well, just Java. Maybe LLVM instead of CIL...
  
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  Support my political activism on Patreon.
20. Re:We've been over a hundred of these... by FreakyGreenLeaky · 2011-08-02 01:46 · Score: 1
  
  Somehow, breathlessly bubbling that There's even a way to write apps in Ruby now, which implies you're a luvva of Ruby (a bad thing) and then stating I would have preferred something other than Java which implies you don't enjoy Java (a good thing) and I'm a VIM/Makefile kind of guy which implies you're a decent, honest and all-round wholesome GNU/C/C++ kind of guy, and doing it all in what seems to be a single breath, just leaves me feeling confused.
  Still, -1 + 1 + 1 == 1, so there's hope for you yet :)
21. Re:We've been over a hundred of these... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-08-02 02:04 · Score: 0
  
  Some of us juggle all that stuff in our heads and have a complete map of our code, which becomes difficult to track when we have to deal with automagic stuff or go make amendments or deletions from one side or the other.
  
  And it's absolutely miserable to maintain code you write because invariably you will not do meaningful refactoring because it breaks your mental map.. and is also really annoying for you to have to update all the imports and/or method calls. Every good developer needs decent skills with a powerful text editor. But if you're not using a modern IDE these days you're a terrible coder.
22. Re:We've been over a hundred of these... by sourcerror · 2011-08-02 02:37 · Score: 1
  
  You can't patent a programming language. The patent is on Just in Time compilation.
23. Re:We've been over a hundred of these... by VGPowerlord · 2011-08-02 02:40 · Score: 1
  
  Java tends to accept... well, just Java. Maybe LLVM instead of CIL...
  Just because there's only one "official" language that runs on the Java VM doesn't mean there aren't others, such as JRuby, Jython, etc... Wikipedia has a list.
  
  --
  GLaDOS for President 2016! "Well here we are again. It's always such a pleasure." -- GLaDOS, 2011
24. Re:We've been over a hundred of these... by pseudorand · 2011-08-02 02:45 · Score: 1
  
  > It's amazing to me that in this day-and-age ANYONE can claim that VIM & Makefile's are superior development environments to Eclipse, Netbeans, or name your IDE. That's simply B.S.!
  Except that, outside of the M$ world, IDEs are worthless pieces of shit. I tried, I really tried, like for days, to use Eclipse when I started Android development. But the tools sucked. There was no end to time sucking bugs I encountered, most of which I found lots of others complaining about in forums, but most of which had no solutions or solutions that worked once but the problem came back and no one really knew the root cause for. Okay, so maybe I'm overstating on the number of problems with Eclipse/Android, but I truly did work with it for days and kept hitting the same few problems that no one had solutions for. So then I fired up vim and ant and everything just worked exactly as expected. So nice. Write-to-the-log style debugging may be a bit old school, but it works and it's a hell of a lot better than trying to debug the fucking IDE and IDE plugins themselves.
  I think Visual Studio is good simply because it's the primary way to do development in the MS world and all the OS devs use it, so it has to be.
25. Re:We've been over a hundred of these... by pmontra · 2011-08-02 03:00 · Score: 1
  
  Objective-C is not an Apple proprietary technology and Google could have used it. I bet it belongs to those one hundred alternatives Google evaluated and discarded for some reasons. I'd like to know why but I'm happy they didn't chose it because it looks so bad with all those square brackets (disclaimer: it's a purely subjective and aesthetic opinion of no technological value). On the other hand, I agree that they've looked for trouble with the way they used Java in their OS, and XML is even worse that Objective-C.
26. Re:We've been over a hundred of these... by luis_a_espinal · 2011-08-02 03:26 · Score: 2
  
  Some of us juggle all that stuff in our heads and have a complete map of our code, which becomes difficult to track when we have to deal with automagic shit or go make amendments or deletions from one side or the other.
  There is no automagic. There never is. There are IDE-assisted automatic features (the majority of which is useful), the configuration and behavior of which are not rocket science, and which we either understand or we do not.
  
  Others write bits of business logic and string it together, and hope it works; often these people rely on development environments to take care of some of the stringing together.
  False dichotomy between the previous case and the later ones. It might surprise to some, there is people out there who understand the code and intelligently use automated tools for integrating it. We don't get paid to show off our l33t hax0r skills, but to intelligently use tools available for coding to our employer's benefit.
  I will also argue, and there is plenty of evidence of it, that, unless you are an absolute genius, if you can completely map the code out in your brain, the complexity (not necessarily the size) of that code is trivial, or small-sized at best. Some languages (say Ruby or Python) are better than others (Java, C++) for helping the developer write more succinct, mentally-manageable code. But beyond a certain size and complexity, independently of whether it is systems or application development, one simply cannot claim to mentally map the code (unless you are the owner of a module and you are actively maintaining it.)
  Also, it is a false dichotomy to present business logic and code as separate entities. Business logic gets implemented on code, on top of other non-functional requirements. Code is the executable representation of business logic, it is knowledge captured and codified in software. Break that relationship, and all you have is code for shit. Business logic changes constantly causing inevitable code/system changes and increasing entropy (yes, the 2nd law of thermodynamics applies to software).
  It is our job to put constant effort in controlling/negating entropy in the affected systems. And that's what integrated environments are for, to provide for automated tools that when used intelligently in conjunction with good programming practices helps with that part of the software development cycle. These are just tools and they perform according to the hand that wields them. This is something that is sadly neglected or considered irrelevant or trivial.
27. Re:We've been over a hundred of these... by gbjbaanb · 2011-08-02 03:27 · Score: 1
  
  possibly CIL or LLVM, but the point is that any new device still has to have a load of dev work done to allow Dalvik to run on it, a C based API wouldn't require much in the way of additional work for the manufacturer, and none for the app-developer.
  With a C based API, you get to run anything on top of it. With Java you only get java-based stuff (ie Java) to run and that just annoys me :)
28. Re:We've been over a hundred of these... by luis_a_espinal · 2011-08-02 03:46 · Score: 2
  
  Yeah, I was too vague when I said that. The integration in Eclipse is well done. Eclipse itself (editing) is awful. Things like Eclipse automatically adding random lines (like imports) whenever I copy and paste between files? Yeah, that's a terrible feature. Panes/splitting and pane management is very obscure as well. Oh, and tabs are characters, not 4 spaces - seriously fucking stop with the tab conversion.
  C'mon man, this is 2011.
  1. Window/Preferences/Editors/Text Editors/Insert spaces for tab (uncheck)
  2. Windows/Preferences/Java/Code Style/Formatter/Active Profiler/Edit/Indentation Tab/Tab Policy: Use spaces to indent wrapped lines (uncheck)
  You find those two in a most trivial manner. JFGI Eclipse style. Simply enter "tab" in the search box in the Windows/Preference window, and voila, it shows you how to control tab expansion. This is a capability present in any modern IDE or code editor. It is something trivial that one should reasonably expect any developer to figure it out rather quickly.
  There are a lot of challenging things in software. This ain't one of them.
29. Re:We've been over a hundred of these... by toriver · 2011-08-02 04:02 · Score: 1
  
  The brackets in Obj-C are cleanliness itself compared to the multitude of uses for most characters in e.g. C++.
30. Re:We've been over a hundred of these... by Dog-Cow · 2011-08-02 04:43 · Score: 1
  
  The point of a VM is that only the VM changes to accommodate the physical architecture. The thousands of apps already available would not have to be recompiled.
31. Re:We've been over a hundred of these... by Kagetsuki · 2011-08-02 05:08 · Score: 1
  
  X11 has this internal networking protocol to pass information back and fourth between objects/processes/whatever. If Google had used something like that to say, communicate with widgets etc. you could code widgets and apps in totally different languages and as long as there was an interface to that internal networking protocol there would be no issue. I believe the Wayland project set out to make a better version of that X11 protocol, perhaps Google should have done something with that?
32. Re:We've been over a hundred of these... by Kagetsuki · 2011-08-02 05:19 · Score: 1
  
  If you ever write anything server-side you'll understand how nice Ruby can be. I've honestly never written an application in it though. Seriously though, the way Ruby deals with data is incredible. Especially when it comes to things like complex strings and string literals and combining them with things and character sets and on and on I'd take Ruby over C++ and every String related C++ library ever made. Just trying to pull off some of the things you can do in a few characters in Ruby with C++ String Streams would take ridiculous amounts of coding.
  Ruby is however a very different type of language, and its syntax and the way it operates is something a lot of people don't like. I myself didn't initially like it until I had to do server-side stuff, at which point I quickly found out it is a gorgeous language for that task (and many others, mind you). Would I prefer Ruby over Java for Apps? Well, I don't even know how Ruby would deal with threads and events and things like that, and those are really strong points in Java and things that you can really use extensively in Apps and Widgets, so I don't know.
33. Re:We've been over a hundred of these... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-08-02 05:45 · Score: 0
  
  You do realize that with the exception of pane management, which can take some getting used to, both of your other complaints are addressed by a preference that you can change. Did you seriously think that something like the tabs-vs-spaces holy war wouldn't be customizable?
  Perhaps before you rail against a product for being terrible, you might want to at least take a second to actually learn how to use it. IDEs are complicated programs that can't be made entirely intuitive. There will always be a learning curve no matter how well made they are. Making judgments before taking the rather simple step of just looking at the ways the IDE can be customized makes you look foolish or trollish, take your pick.
34. Re:We've been over a hundred of these... by Kagetsuki · 2011-08-02 05:45 · Score: 1
  
  Fair enough, I haven't used it long enough to even be bothered to personalize that. My main question would be WHY are tabs not characters? Why should having to hit backspace 4 times to knock down indentation one level be a default? What benefit is there?
35. Re:We've been over a hundred of these... by shutdown+-p+now · 2011-08-02 06:11 · Score: 1
  
  I think he was referring to that feature in VS where, while debugging and paused, you can right-click a line of code and say "Set next statement" - and then when you step or run that's where it'll continue. It doesn't quite let you do it with any line, especially in release builds, and the results can sometimes be hilarious, since you can skip initialization or break loop invariants very easily. Still, it can be handy.
36. Re:We've been over a hundred of these... by shutdown+-p+now · 2011-08-02 06:15 · Score: 1
  
  If the only reason for VM is to not be locked into a particular architecture, then LLVM is by far the best choice. No need for JIT, either, just compile to native when app is installed from the .apk. CIL is more complicated - in particular, it introduces a common object model, which only makes sense if you need languages to interoperate on a higher level (but then you have to either map model to whatever languages offer, or add language extensions to accomodate the model, like C++/CLI).
  Of course, using LLVM would then require the underyling API to be plain C.
37. Re:We've been over a hundred of these... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-08-02 07:30 · Score: 0
  
  For a more polished Android development experience, you might take a look at IntelliJ. They're more concerned with the overall developer experience rather than making their IDE infinitely customizable/extendable.
38. Re:We've been over a hundred of these... by bluefoxlucid · 2011-08-02 07:50 · Score: 2
  
  False dichotomy between the previous case and the later ones. It might surprise to some, there is people out there who understand the code and intelligently use automated tools for integrating it. We don't get paid to show off our l33t hax0r skills, but to intelligently use tools available for coding to our employer's benefit.
  If you are completely crippled by your tools not being available, you are not "intelligently using tools available." Many developers are baffled by things like memory management or reference counting, and want the language to figure out when memory is no longer in use and garbage collect it because they simply can't wrap their head around the idea of tracking data; many others sit down and design a program before writing spaghetti code, and occasionally cause implementation bugs. While you can be competent and write in Java, you can also turn white at the mention of C (and immediately confuse it with C++) and use Java to simulate knowing what in the hell you're doing.
  All tools are like this. If you use them as a crutch, you will be glued to the tool, and probably come out incompetent. Some of us never liked the crutches. I don't like tap shifters and prefer a clutched manual transmission, and I -hate- automatics (having driven automatic only for 7 years before learning to drive a clutch, I think I'm qualified to comment on my preference against them). Some people drive automatics well; other people are constantly doing the ass dance on the brakes and gas, driving inefficiently and dangerously, following too close, burning up their brakes, etc. These people can't handle a clutch because they don't know how to drive in the first place, and driving on a stick will prove a completely confusing challenge. I have an uncle like that, and while he's mastered not stalling his car by braking too god damn much, he also burns clutches out in 10,000 miles.
  Tools are tools. If you can't live without a certain tool, you are blind and don't understand the task you're doing. Building houses with hammers and nails is slow and sucky; building a house with power drills and screws or with nail guns is excellent, takes a day or so for a good team (yeah, it can be done), but in a pinch you can spend a few weeks or months hammering together a big 4 bedroom 3 bathroom house with primitive hand tools. It is the same with other tools--some tools facilitate complex and blindingly fast work, while others simply add convenience but can be discarded by those who favor a different method.
  
  I will also argue, and there is plenty of evidence of it, that, unless you are an absolute genius, if you can completely map the code out in your brain, the complexity (not necessarily the size) of that code is trivial, or small-sized at best. Some languages (say Ruby or Python) are better than others (Java, C++) for helping the developer write more succinct, mentally-manageable code. But beyond a certain size and complexity, independently of whether it is systems or application development, one simply cannot claim to mentally map the code (unless you are the owner of a module and you are actively maintaining it.)
  I put a lot of time into the design of programs, so much so that I actually enjoy designing more than actually programming. At a high level, it is possible to determine a lot of the problems you'll face (mostly data management between business logic modules), and then come up with strategies for making everything work together. It is this that you work on first, such that the complex portion becomes little bits of "tell it to do this, it works." In short, separate tasks that can be separated even if they make no logical sense to separate: sure, I'll only do X and Y when doing X, Y, and Z, but why should I make X and Y one giant, complicated, confusing operation when I can make it one small, streamlined operation or--failing that--two operations that are easy to understand separately?
  One thing I do when bore
  
  --
  Support my political activism on Patreon.
39. Re:We've been over a hundred of these... by FreakyGreenLeaky · 2011-08-02 19:32 · Score: 1
  
  I hear you. Honestly, I've never taken the time or felt the need to try Ruby -- Perl/C/PHP/Bourne (and C++ if I have to, and JS if I'm required) do everything I need... It's the same with Python: I'm sure it's great, I just don't have a burning need.
  That's the beauty of what we do - we have a choice.
40. Re:We've been over a hundred of these... by luis_a_espinal · 2011-08-03 06:15 · Score: 1
  
  Fair enough, I haven't used it long enough to even be bothered to personalize that. My main question would be WHY are tabs not characters? Why should having to hit backspace 4 times to knock down indentation one level be a default?
  
  Because your default way of doing is highlight/shift+tab? Not counting the fact that auto-indentation in Eclipse is 1) highly configurable (you can tell it to auto-format brackets, spaces and what-not with just a few clicks); 2) it is automatic; and 3) it is very efficient. It ain't rocket science. Well, it might have looked like that back in the day when we had nothing but vim (or ed or some archaic crap like that) over a VT-100 terminal with they keyboard mappings all fucked up. But now, in 2011? I mean, c'mon.
  
  What benefit is there?
  Allowing spaces instead of tabs makes sure that the intended visual impact of indentation remains the same (most of the time, but not always), independently of whether you open the source code in VIM, Notepad++, pico/nano, Notepad, Eclipse, NetBeans, JDeveloper. Edge case mind you: sometimes you still have a 120-column dot-matrix printer (which is the best thing for printing reams of code), you cat the code down to that bad boy, and you want the indentation to appear in the printer exactly how they come up in the screen. Typically, you cannot do that if you use tabs.
  Unless you are doing JavaScript - where you sometimes have to be mindful of the actual number of bytes being send down the wire - this is a non-issue. And even with JavaScript, one can always maintain the source code indented in any specific way, with the .js files being passed through a "compactor" before being deployed or sent to the client's browser.
  It is really a non-issue. No, really, seriously. At most, it is a mild annoyance of no significant consequence.
41. Re:We've been over a hundred of these... by jc42 · 2011-08-03 07:48 · Score: 1
  
  It's amazing to me that in this day-and-age ANYONE can claim that VIM & Makefile's are superior development environments to Eclipse, Netbeans, or name your IDE. That's simply B.S.!
  Actually, it may just be more experience speaking. I've experimented with a bunch of IDEs, and found that all of them are pretty good at speeding up the initial stages of development. They can save time that I'd spend looking up templates and typing boilerplate code. They can also warn me when I've done something stupid (which all programmers do now and then ;-).
  Where they fall down is later, when you think you've got it all working, you've done all the unit tests, and you try it out on a "real word" situation. It silently goes insane, or crashes without any diagnostics. You try to get the IDE to give you clues, and all it does it run the app 10 times slower, then goes insane without diagnostics. You've hit a "subtle" bug that all that high-level automagic Developement Environment didn't know about.
  So you fall back to the old style, adding lots of messages to a logfile. You find the problem, such as an obscure library routine doing something slightly different than the manual said, or maybe you've gone outside its (undocumented) limits on the range of some input. You fix it, and then rather than stripping out all those log messages (because you suspect they'll come in handy later), you make them conditional on a debug flag. Now you've gone all the way back to that primitive way of building software that the IDE fanboys sneer at.
  But that's not the whole story. Suppose the above doesn't happen, and your new code gets delivered to a customer site. When run there, it quietly goes insane (without diagnostics). The IDE can't help, because you can't get it installed on the customer's site, and for whatever reason, it doesn't cooperate when you try to run it remotely with the output on your screen 1000 miles away. So again, you're stuck with putting the logfile messages into the deliverable, and holding the customer's hand (since they refuse to give you a remote login) while they run it and email you the logfile.
  After fighting many such battles, and realizing that many of the problems aren't technical, but rather due to what your management and your customers will allow you to do, you also understand that your vaunted IDE is really just a good tool for starting up a project. If you really want to make it a quality product, you need a tool that gives you full access to all the low-level details that the IDE people sneer at and assure you you don't need. And after a while, your logbook says that it doesn't seem to have sped up the job measurably. It mostly just erected barriers between you and the code when things didn't quite work right, which always happens.
  Then you type replies like this in a forum, also realizing fully that it won't help at all.
  
  --
  Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
42. Re:We've been over a hundred of these... by luis_a_espinal · 2011-08-03 09:06 · Score: 1
  
  If you are completely crippled by your tools not being available, you are not "intelligently using tools available."
  
  This is an absolutely true statement... when you take it all by itself, just like saying "the sky is typically blue in the desert". Great, good for you. You are still re-iterating the extreme, negative case on a false dichotomy. You don't prove that a dichotomy exists by reiterating one side of it. You do so by showing that there is nothing in between the extremes. It is not an inevitability to become completely crippled by the tools at your disposal just because of their prevalence.
  
  Many developers are baffled by things like memory management or reference counting, and want the language to figure out when memory is no longer in use
  Non-sequitor. What you are describing is a function on the exposure of low-level programming languages, not on the availability of integrated environment tools. I've programmed in C, C++ and Assembly (plus Ada and Pascal where you can still get your SEGFAULTS), and now I'm going to lose proficiency in low-level management crap just because all of the sudden I use Eclipse with a C/C++ plug-in and Valgrind and VectorCast and all other high-level tools? I start working with an integrated development environment for Java enterprise development, and I'm now going to be baffled at the sight of memory management?
  There are individuals out there doing app-level development who have not have had any exposure to these kind of things, but to suggest or even believe that such is the general case is such a display in self-congratulatory wishful thinking, it is just ridiculous. Don't delude yourself into thinking that people who do C or C++ fare any better. I've seen code on both sides of the equation. Not pretty.
  
  and garbage collect it because they simply can't wrap their head around the idea of tracking data;
  
  And that shows me you have no clue what you are talking about. You use garbage collection for application-level code, concentrating the tasks of memory book-keeping in a safe, tried-and-true, tested-till-it-bleeds critical section of your infrastructure, based on reliable, robust GC algorithms. Then you put your energy and efforts in developing the algorithms necessary for implementing the app-specific requirements, which, by the very nature, are highly volatile. Direct, manual memory book-keeping has absolutely no place in app-level code (in the same way that runtime type identification and reflection have no place, most of the time, in systems-level code.) Anyone who tries to do otherwise should be fired on the spot.
  
  many others sit down and design a program before writing spaghetti code, and occasionally cause implementation bugs.
  Which occurs also among programmers that do C and C++ with nothing but Vim and gcc (and I have the code to prove it.) So what's your point?
  
  While you can be competent and write in Java, you can also turn white at the mention of C (and immediately confuse it with C++)
  Well, I don't, and a large number, if not the majority of Java developers with a solid CS degree do not either. Even for a CS graduate who hasn't had work experience in systems level programming and goes straight into application level programming using Java or what not, what on earth do you think CS students do when they do their OS and Unix programming courses?
  It is a pervasive fallacy - held by some, God only knows why - based on a morbid exaggeration of an actual problem that manifests itself in many forms across applications and systems programming domains.
  
  and use Java to simulate knowing what in the hell you're doing.
  
  You love the sound of that, don't you?
43. Re:We've been over a hundred of these... by Kagetsuki · 2011-08-03 14:42 · Score: 1
  
  Way to totally mis the point of tab characters.
44. Re:We've been over a hundred of these... by MichaelSmith · 2011-08-03 21:21 · Score: 1
  
  There seem to be command line and GUI debugging tools in the developer kit, but I don't use them.
  
  --
  http://michaelsmith.id.au
45. Re:We've been over a hundred of these... by bluefoxlucid · 2011-08-04 01:39 · Score: 1
  
  Spending more of my waking hours in a building with an entire floor of developers I have to work directly with, I can competently say that my opinions of modern programmers stems from a tiny, tiny glimpse into the real world of programming.
  Also, you seem to be intensely afraid of manual memory tracking, for reasons I can't fathom. at the worst I've used reference counting, which I find nice, but which has corner cases I specifically avoid. Python uses implicit reference counting. Some Java/.NET implementations use implicit reference counting, though mostly they use mark-and-sweep collectors. Besides the stop-the-world issues in many implementations, general garbage collection with mark-and-sweep algorithms has to run through all collection-managed memory: you'd better not use ANY swap, because it's going to get referenced repeatedly and cause disk thrashing.
  Managed code has less of a problem, of course: the Mono Compacting Collector is fantastic (although it uses a stop-the-world model), because it minimizes the number of pages used. Compactors are really pretty excellent, even if they're not also collectors.
  Manually managing memory has the advantages that you immediately get back any memory freed. Garbage collection has the advantage that you don't have to think. Reference counting has the advantage that you can programatically track the number of references to a piece of data, rather than explicitly making logical assumptions. In many, many cases, it's obvious when memory is no longer in use; there are few cases where it becomes difficult, and typically this is a result of improperly written code (monolith) rather than properly separated and segregated code (modular).
  
  --
  Support my political activism on Patreon.
Its not an email - its a saved draft by a_n_d_e_r_s · 2011-08-01 23:25 · Score: 1

Given that there are no recipient - this is a draft for an email that was never sent.
So its nothing more then a private note written by one person.
As for the damages the 100 million figure was for the whole java plattform - given that this is only for a couple of patent in the java plattform the final figure should be significant less then that given that the patents is only a small portion of the java plattform. Its looks like this will become another case where
the only winner will be the lawyers since they will probably end up getting more money then the lawsuit will bring in.

--
Just saying it like it are.
1. Re:Its not an email - its a saved draft by Anonymous Coward · 2011-08-02 07:59 · Score: 0
  
  You should re-read the article about the judge's order for the damage amount to be reduced to $100m. In it, he also stated that, if Google lost, there was a likelihood of a permanent injunction being granted. $100m to Google and Oracle isn't nothing, but it's nothing to worry about. If that's all they were "playing" for, they'd have likely figured out some out-of-court settlement and gone on their way. But the judge's order makes it entirely clear what's at stake. If Google loses, they'll either have to fully license the Java patents or stop distributing Android.
  Oracle is betting that Google will cough up much more than $100m to avoid having to stop developing Android or having to switch away from Java in Android.
CRITICAL detail by Anonymous Coward · 2011-08-01 23:25 · Score: 0

The email was not sent. The To: field was left empty.
Basically, they got email system backups including "draft" folders. It was never made into a communication.
1. Re:CRITICAL detail by Anonymous Coward · 2011-08-01 23:52 · Score: 0
  
  Basically using unsent draft emails as a network notepad.
2. Re:CRITICAL detail by bonch · 2011-08-02 05:15 · Score: 1
  
  So?
Oracle are the good guys here by pieterh · 2011-08-01 23:33 · Score: 4, Interesting

No, I'm serious. This is not about emails and licenses but about whether we tolerate monopoly ownership of ideas, i.e. software patents (or patents at all). Up until recently Google has been deliberately naive about the problem, shrugging it off and allowing others to take the hit. It's allowed Microsoft and Apple to accumulate large patent portfolios intended to stop free competition.
Google need to get hit, and they need to see software patents as a real threat to their plan of world domination. They need to realize that $100M buys a lot of lobbyists, and they need to spend that money in Washington to end the software patent system. Oracle is doing us a favour by forcing Google into court here. They're greedy enough to not want a nominal settlement, and they're smart enough to win their case.
So despite the fact that I'd rather stab myself with a blunt fork than install a piece of Oracle software on any machine I own, I'm rooting for them in this case, and I hope they win big.

--
My blog
1. Re:Oracle are the good guys here by Anonymous Coward · 2011-08-01 23:41 · Score: 0
  
  Oracle winning will enforce the idea that companies need to patent ideas. This case needs kicking out to discourage software patents.
2. Re:Oracle are the good guys here by Gaygirlie · 2011-08-02 00:07 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  Google actually IS and has been fighting software patents for a good while already and they do indeed have lobbyists. They however cannot do miracles: the whole god damn media industry is pushing for stricter copyright and patents laws and they've got all the politicians in their pockets.
3. Re:Oracle are the good guys here by Pieroxy · 2011-08-02 00:35 · Score: 1
  
  and they need to spend that money in Washington to end the software patent system.
  Rather, they'll buy some patent portfolios from random failing tech companies and they will jump in the bandwagon of software patents. It is a much easier route to safety for them.
  
  --
  Write boring code, not shiny code!
4. Re:Oracle are the good guys here by JamesP · 2011-08-02 01:37 · Score: 1
  
  Then Google and and whatnot should take every last single penny and buy the congress...
  Or maybe buy a bunch of patent trolls and 'unleash the kraken' agains MS and Oracle, it's probably cheaper.
  
  --
  how long until /. fixes commenting on Chrome?
5. Re:Oracle are the good guys here by Anonymous Coward · 2011-08-02 01:55 · Score: 1
  
  It'd be cheaper to buy the media industry...but then they'd risk running seriously afoul of antitrust issues.
6. Re:Oracle are the good guys here by bgarcia · 2011-08-02 02:01 · Score: 5, Interesting
  
  Please mod parent up.
  I've seen this suggested before. The media industry is *small* compared to Google et al. It's amazing that they have so much control in Congress. Google, IBM, Microsoft, etc. should each just buy one or two media companies and be done with it.
  
  --
  I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar.
7. Re:Oracle are the good guys here by westlake · 2011-08-02 02:09 · Score: 1
  
  Up until recently Google has been deliberately naive about the problem, shrugging it off and allowing others to take the hit. Google need to get hit, and they need to see software patents as a real threat to their plan of world domination.
  Google is a licensee of three MPEG LA patent pools:
  MPEG-2, MPEG-4, AVC/H.264
  I haven't the least doubt that it licensees other technoogies on the same scale.
  Google is a business. Its core competence is search. All that licensing the patent portfolio really means iin business s that you can't afford to be the first or the best in everything.
8. Re:Oracle are the good guys here by CrimsonAvenger · 2011-08-02 02:28 · Score: 1
  
  I've seen this suggested before. The media industry is *small* compared to Google et al. It's amazing that they have so much control in Congress.
  They have so much control in Congress because they are willing to bribe Congresscritters and Presidents with enormous amounts of cash, plus favourable depictions of them in movies/TV/news programs.
  Assuming, of course, that the congresscritters/presidents were favourably inclined towards them, either economically or politically.
  
  --
  
  "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
9. Re:Oracle are the good guys here by phantomfive · 2011-08-02 03:29 · Score: 1
  
  It's unlikely that Oracle will lose, since their patents have already been tested in court, and have stood up. The only question is what kind of cross-licensing agreement they get with Google, and how much each patent portfolio is worth.
  
  --
  "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
10. Re:Oracle are the good guys here by chrb · 2011-08-02 03:42 · Score: 1
  
  Saying that "Oracle are the good guys here" is kind of like saying that "Japan were the good guys" for hitting the U.S. at Pearl Harbor and pulling them into WWII, because it forced the U.S. to join the Allies and their fight. In the end, that may have turned out to have been for the best, but you still wouldn't describe the Japanese as the "good guys" for starting it.
11. Re:Oracle are the good guys here by Rich0 · 2011-08-02 04:03 · Score: 1
  
  Yup, media industry has a HUGE amount of power. Far disproportionate to their actual earnings, since they influence how the masses think. They pay everybody from singers to actors to newscasters.
  Maybe if Google starts a movie/music studio...
12. Re:Oracle are the good guys here by Anonymous Coward · 2011-08-02 04:29 · Score: 0
  
  First off, Google spent more on lobbyists this past quarter than ever before (US$2m). Secondly, Google is against patents not because they are out for the public good, but rather because it serves their business. They have borrowed quite a bit of technology from others (Linux kernel, iOS multitouch, Java programming language, even context-sensitive advertising) and would rather not pay anything for that as it will cut into profits.
13. Re:Oracle are the good guys here by bonch · 2011-08-02 05:18 · Score: 0
  
  It's allowed Microsoft and Apple to accumulate large patent portfolios intended to stop free competition.
  Please give examples where Microsoft and Apple have been stopping "free competition" through patent portfolios. The reason for having them is primarily defensive; e.g., it was Nokia who sued Apple first, not the other way around.
  I realize this is Slashdot, and patents have become the new hip cause, following Linux-on-the-desktop, copyright reform, and various other online movements that didn't actually accomplish anything in the last decade.
14. Re:Oracle are the good guys here by bonch · 2011-08-02 05:23 · Score: 1
  
  the whole god damn media industry is pushing for stricter copyright and patents laws and they've got all the politicians in their pockets.
  You realize that Google has close ties to the Obama administration, right? Schmidt is a technology adviser for Obama, and Andrew McLaughlin is the U.S. deputy chief technology officer. Marissa Mayer even held a fundraiser at her mansion, where Obama made a personal appearance (less than a week before the FTC dismissed its inquiry into the Street View debacle). I wouldn't be concerned that Google has no politicians in their pockets.
15. Re:Oracle are the good guys here by bonch · 2011-08-02 05:24 · Score: 1
  
  Please list examples of these bribes.
16. Re:Oracle are the good guys here by Anonymous Coward · 2011-08-02 05:27 · Score: 0
  
  And you think that Google hasn't bought off a few politicians themselves? Go back to munching on your tuna-flavoured carpet you dirty, herpes-riddled dyke.
17. Re:Oracle are the good guys here by geminidomino · 2011-08-02 07:39 · Score: 2
  
  http://www.opensecrets.org/pacs/industry.php?txt=B12&cycle=2012
  http://www.opensecrets.org/pacs/lookup2.php?strID=C00428623&cycle=2010
  http://www.opensecrets.org/pacs/lookup2.php?strID=C00323048
18. Re:Oracle are the good guys here by Anonymous Coward · 2011-08-04 08:06 · Score: 0
  
  It's allowed Microsoft and Apple to accumulate large patent portfolios intended to stop free competition.
  WTF? Google has only been around 10-ish years, MS and Apple have been around something like 30 they already had large patent portfolios before Google even entered the game. You are talking like Google has any power to prevent them building patent portfolios, Google don't run the country (at least not yet anyway) and as large as Google are, they have no real power to stop their competitors doing this.
Remain public? by rossdee · 2011-08-01 23:36 · Score: 1

Once something is 'out there' its kinda impossible to make it 'private' again.
1. Re:Remain public? by gl4ss · 2011-08-02 02:12 · Score: 2
  
  that's not how patent litigation works, i'm afraid.
  if it did work like that and the jurys were free to do research on their own, then majority of patent litigation cases would end up with both parties patents being stamped with "obvious shit". because very few patents end up being groundbreaking or so innovative that they'd be worthy of a patent, and that's the world we're living in now.
  
  --
  world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
2. Re:Remain public? by Dog-Cow · 2011-08-02 04:48 · Score: 1
  
  Your post has no connection to its parent. In fact, I can't figure out what your point is at all, much less how it might be related.
What did we learn by Anonymous Coward · 2011-08-01 23:37 · Score: 0

Never put down your actual thoughts in an e-mail (draft, or sent). Voice communications only. If you have to write an e-mail, don't speculate.
1. Re:What did we learn by c0mpliant · 2011-08-01 23:59 · Score: 1
  
  Never put down your actual thoughts in an e-mail (draft, or sent). Voice communications only. If you have to write an e-mail, don't speculate.
  Sounds like something a young Richard Nixon would say. Worked out well for him
  
  --
  There is no -1 disagree
the end of java by Gravis+Zero · 2011-08-01 23:46 · Score: 1

'What we've actually been asked to do by Larry and Sergey is to investigate what technology alternatives exist to Java for Android and Chrome,'
LOLCODE!

--
Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
Re:What did we learn - saving /. by Anonymous Coward · 2011-08-01 23:47 · Score: 1

Never put down your actual thoughts in an e-mail (draft, or sent). Voice communications only. If you have to write an e-mail, don't speculate.
Exact same things regarding posts on the Internet.
People think we ACs are posting crap, gibberish, offtopic posts, flamebate, and troll but in fact we are protecting ourselves and the Slashdot community from lawsuits such as these.
I mean really, someone posts something like a trade secret and then an AC posts a GNAA flamebait and TADA! instant get out of lawsuit! The plaintiffs lawyers will just bypass the post because of the troll!
We ACs are very under appreciated here! I'm sure we've saved many people from lawsuits because of our post!!!
Lindholm probably worked for Sun before by Anonymous Coward · 2011-08-02 00:06 · Score: 1

Something interesting to note: take a look at who the writers of the Java VM specification are. One of them is Tim Lindholm.
The NDK is a wrapper around the Java API, so no. by fejjie · 2011-08-02 00:58 · Score: 2

> ZING! But there's an NDK for Android as well, so it's not like you have to use Java anyway.
Oh how naive you are... the NDK are C wrappers for the Java API. Yes, you heard me correctly... the C API wraps the Java API and not the other way around like it *should* be.
Google should have bought SUN by kyoukhana · 2011-08-02 01:32 · Score: 2

Years ago Google should have bought Sun Microsystems which I am sure why didn't they. Or why doesn't Google buy Oracle NOW
1. Re:Google should have bought SUN by Anonymous Coward · 2011-08-02 02:38 · Score: 0
  
  Antitrust concerns?
2. Re:Google should have bought SUN by VGPowerlord · 2011-08-02 02:59 · Score: 1
  
  Or why doesn't Google buy Oracle NOW
  Google can't afford Oracle.
  You may think Google is some super huge corporation, but Oracle is a super huge corporation as well.
  Not only that, but Oracle makes more money per year than Google does. Of course, they have less equity (thanks in part to them buying companies willy-nilly).
  
  --
  GLaDOS for President 2016! "Well here we are again. It's always such a pleasure." -- GLaDOS, 2011
3. Re:Google should have bought SUN by MikeBabcock · 2011-08-02 05:21 · Score: 2
  
  Oracle is trading at around $30 a share with a market cap of ~ $153 billion.
  Google is trading at around $600 a share with a market cap of ~$194 billion.
  That is to say, Oracle isn't small, and while Google's bigger, it would have to use nearly half its own net worth to gain a controlling share of Oracle.
  
  --
  - Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
4. Re:Google should have bought SUN by Anonymous Coward · 2011-08-04 09:07 · Score: 0
  
  They may have had the money to buy SUN, but it would still have cost a LOT more than this lawsuit would. And what would they gain from it that might be of use to them? Just a few Java related patents, they aren't really interested in the rest of SUN's business. They probably looked at it at the time and decided it wasn't worth it and buying a company to use 1% of its assets isn't really what their shareholders want to see.
Re:The NDK is a wrapper around the Java API, so no by JamesP · 2011-08-02 01:35 · Score: 1

Geez, I didn't know that.
Looks like a case of severe javatarditis...

--
how long until /. fixes commenting on Chrome?
Explain this one to me. by luis_a_espinal · 2011-08-02 02:44 · Score: 1

I've seen these type of claims before, and I'm compelled to ask you. Why do you do it?

Yeah, I was too vague when I said that. The integration in Eclipse is well done. Eclipse itself (editing) is awful. Things like Eclipse automatically adding random lines (like imports) whenever I copy and paste between files?
If by "random" you mean the actual imports needed for the things you copy and paste...
... I mean, seriously. The only time you should ever see an unexpected (not random as there is nothing random going on here, but unexpected), it is because you failed to set up the class path with the correct jars in your project or IDE setup. As a result, Eclipse via reflection picks the first class off the class path that matches the name of it (not the one you want.) And that would be a problem between the keyboard and the chair, not the IDE. I mean, who the heck does Java development w/o setting up a clean class path?

Yeah, that's a terrible feature.
No, it is a problem between the keyboard and the chair.

Panes/splitting and pane management is very obscure as well.
Exactly how? It ain't rocket science. I'm really honest about this.

Oh, and tabs are characters, not 4 spaces - seriously fucking stop with the tab conversion.
Wow, just absolutely wow.
Dude, just do the following:
-- Window/Preferences/General/Editors/Text Editors/(Uncheck)Insert spaces for tabs
-- Java/Code Style/Formatter/Edit Active Profile/Indentation/Tab Policy - Use spaces to indent wrapped lines.
Or simply go to Window/Preferences and type "tab" in the search, and it will show you what settings to change. I can understand a non-technical person not finding a way to change the editor's behavior, but a developer? C'mon. This is like a Winloser saying that gcc on Unix doesn't work because he/she doesn't find a resulting .exe file.
Also, when it comes to tabs over spaces, why would you be so anal about it? It's a freaking config setup, and sometimes, if you work with a team with a retarded set coding standards, they mandate what to use (ergo, not up to you.) And sometimes you inherit code that doesn't necessarily align to your formatting predilections. What do you do then? Do you reformat it all out of the blue? No, you work through. In general, it's a non-issue.
I personally prefer spaces over tabs anyways because I know that the original indentation (which is very important to me) will remain the same independently of whether I open the source code with Eclipse or Vim or Notepad. But that's just me.
For record I used vim for the longest time (funnily I switched from Emacs to Vim), then briefly used JEdit and JDeveloper, picking up Eclipse just recently (back in 2007). I've never had any problem pane splitting. It is a lot easier than Emacs, that's for sure. I never looked back ever since. It is a world of a difference. I still use Vim (I currently do for editing C++, CORBA IDLs and shell scripting and sometimes for simple HTML/JSP and configuration files editing), but for Java development (in particular JEE development), Eclipse. I could use NetBeans as well, but I'm simply more accustomed to Eclipse.
I can't comment about Android development, but in general, yeah, you can do JEE development with Vim, but why would you? What exactly would one try to prove with that? There is a point to be made that people might have a tendency to grow too dependent on the IDE, unable to understand the nitty gritty, but that's just hand-waving. I doubt that such a person would also be a better programmer using a more "raw", primal development environment. And a good programmer will pick the right tool for the right job and would make it sing the tune he wants to.
Equally, I would be baffled to find someone that is a good developer that cannot get past the seemingly complexities of an IDE to get
1. Re:Explain this one to me. by Kagetsuki · 2011-08-02 05:37 · Score: 1
  
  Calm down, I just like VIM out of familiarity and I tend to not like IDE's in general (I use a combination of GVIM and Byobu/Screen to do just about everything, dealing with all the code in GVIM and having things like debuging and logging and a general purpose terminal in Byobu). I've used Eclipse so little that the little things that bothered me about it I didn't even bother to look up how to change - and I probably never will if I know how to get the debug terminal running separately and how to wrap it all in a Makefile or use Ant.
  So I'm just not an IDE guy, I didn't mean to attack your choice of coding environment and my criticism was both uninformed and unfair. Sorry.
Lisp by Jmc23 · 2011-08-02 03:43 · Score: 2

Please, please, why can't they just use lisp? I'd pay extra for a tablet optimized for lisp. It's just so clean and expressive, and if people wanted they could build they're own complicated DSL's and frameworks on top of it.
Actually i'm willing to pay top-dollar for ANY of todays tablets that can run an optimized Lisp(common lisp preferred), any suggestions?

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Don't complain about syntax, grammar, or spelling. There is no.hell like input on android.
1. Re:Lisp by sessamoid · 2011-08-02 04:49 · Score: 1
  
  Please, please, why can't they just use lisp? I'd pay extra for a tablet optimized for lisp. It's just so clean and expressive, and if people wanted they could build they're own complicated DSL's and frameworks on top of it.
  Actually i'm willing to pay top-dollar for ANY of todays tablets that can run an optimized Lisp(common lisp preferred), any suggestions?
  Lisps and DSLs seem like they would go together well.
  
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  "No, no, no. Don't tug on that. You never know what it might be attached to."
2. Re:Lisp by vsync64 · 2011-08-02 16:41 · Score: 1
  
  I wonder how hard it'd be to build CLISP or SBCL using the NDK.
  
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  TO BUY A NEW CAR WOULD MAKE YOU SEXUALLY ATTRACTIVE.
3. Re:Lisp by Jmc23 · 2011-08-03 02:00 · Score: 1
  
  Clisp would be the way to go for a quick port; after all it was made to be portable. SBCL would need someone familiar with asm for whichever cpu was being targeted.
  i can't even look at it since my laptop died. which is why i'd give almost anything for a tablet i could do onboard development with. Pretty soon i'll probably just settle for a tablet with a large screen, my n900 doesn't cut it for reading technical docs or hardcore surfing.
  I seriously hope all this legal nonsense steers google in this direction. Lisp would be ideally suited for a vm and it would be so easy to abstract away all the horrible boilerplate required for developing for android and it's free!
  
  --
  Don't complain about syntax, grammar, or spelling. There is no.hell like input on android.
You heard it from a Google engineer! by Tolkien · 2011-08-02 05:28 · Score: 1

We've been over a hundred of these and think they all suck.
Even Google's version of the Go Programming Language?

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how is babby formed?
1. Re:You heard it from a Google engineer! by shutdown+-p+now · 2011-08-02 06:20 · Score: 2
  
  Go does not run in a VM - it's compiled directly to native code in the existing implementation. I assume they were looking at alternatives to JVM there.
2. Re:You heard it from a Google engineer! by Tolkien · 2011-08-02 07:32 · Score: 1
  
  Could be right, I suppose.
  
  --
  how is babby formed?
Re:The NDK is a wrapper around the Java API, so no by Kagetsuki · 2011-08-02 05:40 · Score: 1

...! Wow.
I just...
I ...
WHY!?
Re:The NDK is a wrapper around the Java API, so no by shutdown+-p+now · 2011-08-02 06:12 · Score: 1

No, the NDK is not a wrapper around Java. Some of the recently added parts of the NDK (the stuff that enables you to write a fullscreen app without a single line of Java code) are wrappers, yes. But OpenGL is 100% native, and so are all the available ANSI C or POSIX calls.
How about a small translation project? by jc42 · 2011-08-03 04:03 · Score: 1

The obvious suggestion is that they simply (;-) translate all their java code to python or perl. Or a mixture of both, for even more fun. I'm sure that Guido and Larry would be happy to help google out with that.
Seriously, all three languages have very similar properties and implementations. There have been a number of proposals for merging their VMs, and packaging all three languages on top of the result. Sorta like the flock of different source languages that have first-stage parsers that spit out gcc's intermediate language. The main practical barrier to this has always been that java is proprietary. But a java lookalike under a different name (mocha?) has been a common answer to that, and now that java is owned by one of the Evil Overlords, it's sounding more and more like a good idea.
Cue the interminable religious war among the partisans of all three languages ... 3 ... 2 ... 1 ...

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Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.