FBI Says Smart Meter Hacks Are Likely To Spread

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FBI Says Smart Meter Hacks Are Likely To Spread

Posted by Soulskill on Monday April 9, 2012 @05:50AM from the ignorance-is-bliss dept.

tsu doh nimh writes "A series of hacks perpetrated against so-called 'smart meter' installations over the past several years may have cost a single U.S. electric utility hundreds of millions of dollars annually, the FBI said in cyber intelligence bulletin first revealed today. The law enforcement agency said this is the first known report of criminals compromising the hi-tech meters, and that it expects this type of fraud to spread across the country as more utilities deploy smart grid technology."

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So how come they are "smart" meters? by alexborges · 2012-04-09 05:55 · Score: 2

If the new frauds against the new meters are equivalent in size to the old frauds against old meters, but with the new meters they are at least more easily quantified, it still makes sense to deploy them. If the new frauds amount to lesser losses compared to the older frauds, then its still worth it.
If not, Id try and find out who is getting the kickback for this idiotic things.

--
NO SIG
1. Re:So how come they are "smart" meters? by cayenne8 · 2012-04-09 06:01 · Score: 3, Interesting
  
  I dunno...but the simple use a powerful magnet trick to cut the usage tracking down sounds fantastic to me!!
  Simple, just put the magnet on at night...take it off during the day when at work....
  I've been wanting to get some rare earth magnets to play with...hmm...now, maybe I have even more justification?
  {BAEG}
  
  --
  Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
2. Re:So how come they are "smart" meters? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-04-09 06:06 · Score: 0
  
  1. They have no security.
  2. They have no security.
  3. They have no security.
  So, they are imminently hackable. They can install one on my house when they hold a loaded, cocked gun to my head.
3. Re:So how come they are "smart" meters? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-04-09 06:17 · Score: 0
  
  Why would you care? Nobody has any interest in hacking your meter to *cost* you money and nobody has any interest in hacking your meter to save you money. The only people who have interests in hacking meters are the ones paying the bills.
4. Re:So how come they are "smart" meters? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-04-09 06:25 · Score: 0
  
  Actually... if they installed these in my area, I would SO hack my next door neighbor's.... not to save them money though... I would see them spending more.
5. Re:So how come they are "smart" meters? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-04-09 06:29 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  They would like to find out when you are home and when you aren't home.
  They would like to characterize your usage so they can predict what kind of goodies you have,
  And I'm just talking about the power company and hordes of corporate marketing entities what would love to get this data. Imagine the boner it would give thieves and other criminals to have instant access to this information.
6. Re:So how come they are "smart" meters? by QuantumRiff · 2012-04-09 06:40 · Score: 3, Funny
  
  You're electric bill would be directly proportional to the number of quiet afternoons I had to listen to you music in my house :) Damn kids! you call that music?!!? Get off my lawn!
  
  --
  
  What are we going to do tonight Brain?
7. Re:So how come they are "smart" meters? by istartedi · 2012-04-09 06:44 · Score: 1
  
  Becasue it's a very nice word.
  
  --
  For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
8. Re:So how come they are "smart" meters? by mhajicek · 2012-04-09 06:47 · Score: 3, Interesting
  
  The law enforcement agency said... that it expects this type of fraud to spread across the country...
  Especially now that the vulnerabilities have been announced.
9. Re:So how come they are "smart" meters? by mcavic · 2012-04-09 06:55 · Score: 2
  
  They can install one on my house when they hold a loaded, cocked gun to my head.
  No gun necessary. They can install one whenever they want, or they can cut your power.
10. Re:So how come they are "smart" meters? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-04-09 07:07 · Score: 0
  
  I've been wanting to get some rare earth magnets to play with...hmm...now, maybe I have even more justification?
  Neodymium needs no justification. Go, buy, play.
11. Re:So how come they are "smart" meters? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-04-09 07:13 · Score: 0
  
  You know you can use a magnet that is powered by electricity? Works like a charm...
12. Re:So how come they are "smart" meters? by ColdWetDog · 2012-04-09 07:23 · Score: 1
  
  'No officer, I did not put that old hard drive on the power meter. I really don't have any idea why it's there.'
  
  --
  Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
13. Re:So how come they are "smart" meters? by LoRdTAW · 2012-04-09 07:24 · Score: 5, Interesting
  
  Smart meters do not use the old electro-mechanical method to measure power consumption. They are solid state and have no moving parts or coils that can be tampered with by a magnetic field.
  Little story:
  Back in high school I took electrical installation, basically you were taught to become an electrician for residential, commercial and industrial. We had an amazing teacher, a master electrician who told us how he cheated the meter to cut his bill down. Basically most older electric meters were "5-jaw" meaning that they had 5 contacts, two incoming hot legs from the street, one neutral and two outgoing hot legs to your panel box. If you cut the neutral leg the meter stopped spinning. So he "obtained" a forged matching utility seal (the numbered plastic thing that seals the meter to detect tampering) and ran two wires stealthily into the meter pan. Instead of the neutral leg of the meter going strait to the main neutral bus bar, it first went into his home to a timer switch hidden in a closet and back to the meter pans neutral bus bar. He said if you looked in the pan and didn't poke around, you would never see that the wires were diverted.
  So over the period of a few years he finally got it to the point where he would only pay 20-30 dollars a month in electricity because he lowered it very very slowly over time. If you suddenly half your electric bill the uitility's billing software would flag you and send an investigation team out who will pull your meter and take it to a lab for diagnosis and inspect your meter pan. Well he was sitting pretty paying next to nothing while running air conditioners and pool filters but one day the timer burnt out completely shutting the meter off. He didnt notice and said it could have been that way for well over a month. The utility came to his house on a day when he happened to be home and pulled the meter. The lights went out and he decided to look out the window and saw the utility truck in front of his house. He ran out and with some quick thinking started screaming at the utility workers "What the fuck are you doing! My wife was carrying laundry down the stairs and she fell. I think she broke her leg. Im calling 911, and im going to sue your asses!" before he could get back in the house the utility crew plugged the meter back in and ran. He then removed his modifications and covered his trail. The next day an inspector came and rang his bell informing him they had to remove the meter for inspection and that they were sorry for any problems the previous crew caused. Well they took his old mechanical meter and installed an electronic meter that had a clock and a light sensor (from his description). It was a "4-jaw" meter (no neutral) and could not be disabled without physically unplugging it. He never heard back from the utility as he covered his tracks and they couldn't prove he tampered with the meter since he replaced the seal with one of the same serial number. He never tried to tamper with the meter again.
  Goes to show you how easy it was to cheat the electric bill with a little skill, resources and patience.
14. Re:So how come they are "smart" meters? by LiMikeTnux · 2012-04-09 07:30 · Score: 3, Interesting
  
  Most analog meters I have seen (I do residential) are 4 blades. You can actually pull them out and flip them upside down, and they will run backwards!
  
  --
  yap
15. Re:So how come they are "smart" meters? by pulski · 2012-04-09 07:34 · Score: 1
  
  One would think. Your probably being optimistic though.
  (Yes, I know)
16. Re:So how come they are "smart" meters? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-04-09 07:44 · Score: 1
  
  Goes to show you how easy it was to cheat the electric bill with a little skill, resources and patience.
  Interesting story but to be honest, that doesn't sound very easy at all and terribly risky. His time spent concocting and implementing his master plan over the span of years hardly seems to have been worth it.
17. Re:So how come they are "smart" meters? by Firehed · 2012-04-09 08:00 · Score: 2
  
  You can perform that same hack with an extension cable.
  
  --
  How are sites slashdotted when nobody reads TFAs?
18. Re:So how come they are "smart" meters? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-04-09 08:03 · Score: 0
  
  And I'm just talking about the power company and hordes of corporate marketing entities what would love to get this data. Imagine the boner it would give thieves and other criminals to have instant access to this information.
  Wait, you're claiming power companies and corporate marketing entities aren't thieves and criminals? Don't tell those hippies over on Wall Street.
19. Re:So how come they are "smart" meters? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-04-09 08:55 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  Smart meters have other advantages you just don't hear often about. The reason you don't hear about them is because it invades your privacy.
  With smart meters, they can tell people when you're home, likely which holidays you observe, if you watch TV, if you work at night or day, so on and so. They sell your demographic information.
  Likewise, police and other officials are now working with utility companies to determine if you are growing pot, running a business out of your garage, so on and so.
  The fact they hope to reduce their billing costs associated with meters is their primary goal but the field is ripe for secondary profit avenues.
  If you are against smart meters you are against industry invading your privacy and are therefore evil.
20. Re:So how come they are "smart" meters? by HungryMonkey · 2012-04-09 09:06 · Score: 1
  
  Smart meters do not use the old electro-mechanical method to measure power consumption. They are solid state and have no moving parts or coils that can be tampered with by a magnetic field.
  Ok, so I actually RTFA and according to it:
  
  The bureau also said another method of attacking the meters involves placing a strong magnet on the devices, which causes it to stop measuring usage, while still providing electricity to the customer.
  That certainly sounds like tampering with a magnetics field. I'd hazard to say that there a multiple types of smart meters,
21. Re:So how come they are "smart" meters? by gmanterry · 2012-04-09 09:33 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  I'm retired from two different electrical utilities. I can tell you that one of the things that was checked on old analog meters was the wear on the contact legs. It doesn't take many repetitions of flipping the meter in it's socket to wear off the plating on the copper legs. It's pretty obvious.
  
  --
  Since when is "public safety" the root password to the Constitution?
22. Re:So how come they are "smart" meters? by Grizzley9 · 2012-04-09 09:48 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  Goes to show you how easy it was to cheat the electric bill with a little skill, resources and patience and lack of ethics.
  
  Fixed that for you.
23. Re:So how come they are "smart" meters? by detritus. · 2012-04-09 09:59 · Score: 1
  
  Or they are actively encouraging people to tamper with them. These things are not easy to tamper with and have everything from gyrometers and other gizmos that will set off alarms even before someone tries to mess with them.
  There was a talk about this on SmartMeters at GRRCon: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ePWfR6A4_o
24. Re:So how come they are "smart" meters? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-04-09 12:16 · Score: 0
  
  A lot of older smart meters did not have security. Even with new ones some utilities are hesitant to add security, a bit of nervousness about having things become bricked or the like.
  A lot of people call any solid state meter a "smart" meter. They're certain smarter than the spinning disc analog meters, and they may be able to collect all sorts of useful data but which can only be read locally. But they're not really "smart" meters in the modern terminology.
  Working in the industry I don't mind these sorts of stories. It just means that utilities will get more pressure to upgrade or choose partners with better security.
25. Re:So how come they are "smart" meters? by Darinbob · 2012-04-09 12:17 · Score: 2
  
  Doesn't work on newer meters and is mostly likely to set off tamper alarms in the back office.
  The magnet trick actually works on the older analog meters quite well, and probably works better on them than newer meters.
26. Re:So how come they are "smart" meters? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-04-09 12:34 · Score: 0
  
  A few years ago I built out a fiber-based network to support residential power meters and an optional FTTH product for a smaller utility outside of the U.S., and spoke in detail with the power guys. The subject of building profiles of customers based on the meter data came up, and the unanimous consensus was that it was patently immoral, had never been part of any plan for their network, and would never, ever be done. That's despite these people posting a hell of a lot more money into their fiber infrastructure than utilities here in the U.S. spend on supporting their smart meters.
  I'm perpetually disgusted by so many aspects of this country.
27. Re:So how come they are "smart" meters? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-04-09 12:57 · Score: 1
  
  Posting as AC because I work backoffice smart meter... I pretty much know top to bottom how it works. All the new smart meters use encrypted communications... not sure what hardware and software they have in puerto rico on the meters.... I know when a utility recently started deployment here in the US they refused to go beyond a certain deployment (number of meters) until the vendor added standard encryption support (and of course agreed to replace the non-encrypted ones for free since this was a HARDWARE upgrade). Every time you pull the meter off there are alarms reported...also they can detect reverse power flow, shock, and all kinds of other things. they are likely configured to report cumulative (delivered to customer and received from customer) usage if the utility does not know you generate. Also, when strange things happen (i.e. you bash the meter or remove the meter) there is usually enough power stored in to allow the meter to broadcast a message before it dies.... and of course that message probably gets back to the utility to be saved... also, with more accurate measurements for everyone on your transformer it's easy for back-end analytics to detect when the whole is apparently more than the sum of it's parts.
28. Re:So how come they are "smart" meters? by TheLandyman · 2012-04-09 13:00 · Score: 1
  
  Don't you love how people think having power, and a responsible infrastructure, but no way to reliably measure how much of it you use is somehow their right.
29. Re:So how come they are "smart" meters? by Thing+1 · 2012-04-09 14:46 · Score: 1
  
  With smart meters, they can tell people when you're home, likely which holidays you observe, if you watch TV, if you work at night or day, so on and so. They sell your demographic information.
  Yeah. Great. The police know when I'm not home. So they can tell their buddies in the capital extraction program. ("There's nothing else you can say to make me change my mind: goodbye." No, psychos, I'm not self-detonating; I'm listening to The Wall, and that just played, and is, again, topical: I plan to move outside of the jurisdiction of the drones.)
  
  --
  I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
30. Re:So how come they are "smart" meters? by NemoinSpace · 2012-04-09 15:21 · Score: 1
  
  What is an intensive purpose?
31. Re:So how come they are "smart" meters? by davester666 · 2012-04-09 15:57 · Score: 1
  
  It also ables variable billing, as in they will be able to bill more per kwh when the power company turns off one of their power generators.
  
  --
  Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
32. Re:So how come they are "smart" meters? by coxymla · 2012-04-09 17:19 · Score: 1
  
  How many times can you pull the meter out to check the wear on the contacts before you wear off the plating yourself?
33. Re:So how come they are "smart" meters? by mug+funky · 2012-04-09 17:21 · Score: 1
  
  it's an eggcorn.
34. Re:So how come they are "smart" meters? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-04-10 03:42 · Score: 0
  
  FYI, when you write the contraction "you're," I read that as "you are" which really throws off my reading, My brain reads "You are electric bill would be directly prop...whaa?" Then, I have to backtrack and read it over, mentally substituting the correct word "your."
  Errors happen... no biggie. For example, when you wrote "...afternoons I had to listen to _you_ music..." again intending "your," that didn't really bother me. Simply using the wrong pronoun is an easy error to handle. But using "you're" puts an extra verb in the sentence which causes a kind of unrecoverable error and I need to reboot the sentence. It makes me much less likely to appreciate your joke, take you seriously, or even finish reading your post at all.
35. Re:So how come they are "smart" meters? by yurtinus · 2012-04-10 04:08 · Score: 1
  
  It's true. Everybody is out to get you.
  
  --
  +1 Disagree
36. Re:So how come they are "smart" meters? by Rysc · 2012-04-10 04:52 · Score: 1
  
  With smart meters, they can tell people when you're home, likely which holidays you observe, if you watch TV, if you work at night or day, so on and so. They sell your demographic information.
  Likewise, police and other officials are now working with utility companies to determine if you are growing pot, running a business out of your garage, so on and so.
  All I can say is "Good luck, motherfuckers!" - at my house you'd be hard pressed to identify any of this information from power usage fluctuations.
  
  --
  I want my Cowboyneal
37. Re:So how come they are "smart" meters? by peawormsworth · 2012-04-12 05:47 · Score: 1
  
  Stealing from a neighbour vs stealing from a company are two entirely different things.
Lowest bidders by ThatsNotPudding · 2012-04-09 05:59 · Score: 1

And where did these US corporations source all that hardware (and probably the software too)? The convient, one-stop shop of the Peoples Army, Military-Industrial Division.
1. Re:Lowest bidders by SgtChaireBourne · 2012-04-09 06:07 · Score: 2, Informative
  
  It's not just a lowest bidder problem. The meters are designed to be tampered with. The designs were known to be defective before they were rolled out and they were deployed anyway. What is happening now is just an inevitable result of bad engineering. It's too bad that our experiences with M$ products have, for the general public, made bad engineering acceptable.
  
  --
  Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
2. Re:Lowest bidders by Anonymous Coward · 2012-04-09 06:56 · Score: 0
  
  Well they make some of them across the street from where I work, outside Chicago, Illinois.
3. Re:Lowest bidders by ColdWetDog · 2012-04-09 07:27 · Score: 2
  
  Well they make some of them across the street from where I work, outside Chicago, Illinois.
  OMG! The Chinese have invaded Chicago!
  Maybe they can straighten out the politics there.
  
  --
  Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
No fraud checking? by dj245 · 2012-04-09 06:05 · Score: 4, Interesting

Besides the fact that you don't need to mess with dangerous line-voltages, this is no different than normal meter fraud. I can't imagine anything other than incompetence being the reason this was not found. A utility buys electricity, or makes it, and the amount they put on the grid is a known quantity and easily measured. If the amount that they are billing for is less than that, something is wrong. You can do the numbers on a per-line or a per-substation basis, possibly even more granular than that. All the major HV lines and substations have their own meters which report back to HQ. A single person stealing electricity is somewhat hard to catch, but if substantial amounts of people got away with this for an extended period of time, someone was not doing their job.

--
Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress at this period in history.
1. Re:No fraud checking? by Sarten-X · 2012-04-09 06:20 · Score: 5, Funny
  
  You can do the numbers on a per-line or a per-substation basis, possibly even more granular than that.
  That's brilliant! To get specific enough information for legal recourse, we'll need maximum granularity, which means tracking the usage for each customer! We can put their meter right on their house for convenience!
  
  --
  You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
2. Re:No fraud checking? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-04-09 06:21 · Score: 1
  
  Besides the fact that you don't need to mess with dangerous line-voltages, this is no different than normal meter fraud.
  Except that it involves the internet somehow, and therefore it's evil.
  It also seems to be much easier to mess with the so-called smart meters than the old-fashioned reliable dumb meters.
3. Re:No fraud checking? by arth1 · 2012-04-09 06:30 · Score: 5, Informative
  
  A utility buys electricity, or makes it, and the amount they put on the grid is a known quantity and easily measured. If the amount that they are billing for is less than that, something is wrong.
  Yes, like Ohm's law and Joule's law. Any electrical cable and transformer converts electricity into heat, so what the users pull out can never equal what is put on the grid.
  Electricity is also not a resource like water, where if you don't pump it out one second, you can pump it out the next second. Use it or lose it. Converted to DC, it can be stored in capacitors or batteries, but at a very high cost.
4. Re:No fraud checking? by icebike · 2012-04-09 06:30 · Score: 5, Interesting
  
  Besides the fact that you don't need to mess with dangerous line-voltages, this is no different than normal meter fraud. I can't imagine anything other than incompetence being the reason this was not found. A utility buys electricity, or makes it, and the amount they put on the grid is a known quantity and easily measured. If the amount that they are billing for is less than that, something is wrong. You can do the numbers on a per-line or a per-substation basis, possibly even more granular than that. All the major HV lines and substations have their own meters which report back to HQ. A single person stealing electricity is somewhat hard to catch, but if substantial amounts of people got away with this for an extended period of time, someone was not doing their job.
  But take your average mid size city, and the substations cover huge areas. HV feeders typically feed entire neighborhoods and step down to lower voltage on the neighborhood feed without any such meter. Line loss is variable, not a constant you can be assured of over time. Your mom's current frugality binge can make a significant difference in usage month to month.
  So how do you find the 6 houses out of 100 that reduce their consumption by some amount less than the average variance? Especially if they ratchet it down slowly in the high use season?
  And even if you statistically isolate a few suspects, how do you prove it? About the only way to do so is to put another meter upstream of each suspect house. Expensive, and not at all stealthy, so the suspect can drop the hack.
  A power company in an area I lived in, where power was still distributed with overhead wires, would put the meter at the top of the off-property pole as a way of advertising people they had caught tampering with meters. The entire neighborhood knew what that meant. They could still read them remotely, so it didn't involve any additional work load on their staff once installed.
  
  --
  Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
5. Re:No fraud checking? by JaneTheIgnorantSlut · 2012-04-09 06:34 · Score: 1
  
  Except that it involves the internet somehow, and therefore it's patentable.
  
  FTFY
6. Re:No fraud checking? by Sebastopol · 2012-04-09 06:35 · Score: 1
  
  two problems with your accounting scheme:
  a) fluctuating line losses that cannot be quantified (local temperature / weather can impact this)
  b) homes that generate power and put it back on the grid
  
  --
  https://www.accountkiller.com/removal-requested
7. Re:No fraud checking? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-04-09 06:50 · Score: 1
  
  Its called net metering, and the primary use is to catch people stealing. There are several power providers that use this to verify that the net sum of generated power = power sold. Given that generally they know they normal losses, the fluctuating losses are a very small percentage and there are multiple meter points, so any variation should trigger alarm bells. This has been used by utilities on larger scales to find grow-ops in BC, Canada, they look at the power flow through, and check billing info to ensure the net metered power is reasonable. Line and transformer will only account for 2% losses, from a distribution transformer. If your house is stealing 25KVA from a 50KVA transformer, there is no hiding it, but if your apartment is stealing 10KVA from a 1000kVA highrise transformer, it might be dismissed as a unmetered house load. Idealy, if you had all the meters in your area hacked, you could hide your usage in your neighbors bills, that way the power company net metering wouldn't realise and totaling errors.
8. Re:No fraud checking? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-04-09 06:55 · Score: 0
  
  Also what if someone else tampers with your meter without your knowledge or consent? A person wanting to steal it could just tamper with multiple meters in the neighborhood or anonymously and wirelessly cause power to go out.
9. Re:No fraud checking? by mcavic · 2012-04-09 06:57 · Score: 1
  
  Or, put a meter on the pole that feeds your house, as a backup for the meter that you tampered with.
10. Re:No fraud checking? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-04-09 07:12 · Score: 0
  
  Except you have line loss. No utility will have 100% bought = 100% billed out.
11. Re:No fraud checking? by CharlyFoxtrot · 2012-04-09 07:22 · Score: 1
  
  It's probably easy to find cheaters because people get greedy. Since power companies have a pretty good idea of the historic energy use for a certain location all they need to do is watch for big shifts in electricity consumption.
  
  --
  If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error.
12. Re:No fraud checking? by slimjim8094 · 2012-04-09 07:34 · Score: 4, Interesting
  
  They do tend to have meters per transformer ("pole pig"), which is pretty granular, as well as at other points in the distribution network. They use them to diagnose flaws in the system, but they're also used for finding fraud.
  
  --
  I have developed a truly marvelous proof of this comment, which this signature is too narrow to contain.
13. Re:No fraud checking? by icebike · 2012-04-09 08:23 · Score: 2
  
  People smart enough to know about the hacks are usually smart enough not to run their bill down to zero.
  People see their historical usage on every Electric bill, its not like they are unaware records are being kept.
  Thieves just run down their usage over time by 25% of their prior usage, which is consistent with what you can accomplish by being frugal
  (or going on vacation). Public awareness of shortages can drive electrical usage for an entire city down by 25%.
  Dumb people might go for "the big hack", but these are the only ones that get caught, because simple computer programs running
  against billing data make them so obvious.
  Without meter-by-meter inspection, you can't tell if loss of household income (layoff) caused increased frugality or if they tampered
  with the meter, as long as they keep from pushing usage down by less than 25% or so.
  If you Read TFA, you will find that detection is very difficult, and these were with users that had hacked their meter in a very obvious way,
  such that the"altered meter typically reduces a customer’s bill by 50 percent to 75 percent". If you can't easily spot 50% reduction, you
  would have no chance of spotting a 25% reduction.
  
  --
  Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
14. Re:No fraud checking? by innocent_white_lamb · 2012-04-09 08:44 · Score: 1
  
  I haven't had it happen with electricity, but a couple of months after I installed a new high efficiency boiler I had an inspector from the natural gas utility come out to find out why my bill was suddenly so much lower.
  
  --
  If you're a zombie and you know it, bite your friend!
15. Re:No fraud checking? by Rich0 · 2012-04-09 09:48 · Score: 1
  
  If the meters still internally capture the true readings, then sooner or later there will be an issue when the property changes hands. Often utilities will do a manual reading when the account changes name, and there will be a reckoning.
  Now, if the meter itself is tampered with, or doesn't see all the current, then obviously there will be little to detect.
16. Re:No fraud checking? by cstdenis · 2012-04-09 11:31 · Score: 1
  
  But the amount of losses due to heat is easily calculated and factored in.
  
  --
  1984 was not supposed to be an instruction manual.
17. Re:No fraud checking? by fnj · 2012-04-09 12:28 · Score: 1
  
  Because lord knows, nobody could be doing any of these:
  1) Replacing all their incandescents with fluorescents or LEDs
  2) Getting a new, more efficient refrigerator
  3) Replacing an electric oven with a gas oven
  4) ...
  Yep, they all should be presumed guilty. Terrorists!
18. Re:No fraud checking? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-04-09 12:29 · Score: 1
  
  It's a big market to wire up the distribution network too to allow easier monitoring and balancing of the lines. The transmission network tends to be much more advanced than the more local distribution networks, in terms of having people be really concerned about security or rapid response to problems. It was just too expensive in the past to have monitoring equipment at that fine a granularity.
  Even the meters on the houses are detecting things the utilities never expected. Such as pointing out that a neighborhood was only being delivered 112 volts instead of the 120 it was supposed to get.
  Here's one thing that surprised me. Many utilities do not really know when they've got a real power outage or not. In the past it often meant waiting until the third call from the customer before sending out a truck. Otherwise one call only is probably just a tripped circuit breaker. But now there's the possibility of noticing that many meters in a local area have suddenly sent out a mayday signal.
19. Re:No fraud checking? by Darinbob · 2012-04-09 12:31 · Score: 1
  
  The dumb meters are easier to tamper with. Honest. Though it is often more obvious that an analog meter is tampered with, generally you undo everything before the scheduled monthly meter read and put it back afterwords. It's also often obvious that a smart meter is tampered with too, though there the problem may lie more with convincing utilities that things were tampered with instead of it just being a confusing reading or to blame it on software or hardware.
20. Re:No fraud checking? by Darinbob · 2012-04-09 12:35 · Score: 1
  
  Oh ya, another issue. It is often too expensive or too much of a bother for utilities to send someone out to check for fraud on just a suspicion. And they may want police with them in case of altercations. I think a lot of this stuff gets overlooked intentionally at times.
21. Re:No fraud checking? by TheLandyman · 2012-04-09 13:07 · Score: 2
  
  . Many utilities do not really know when they've got a real power outage or not. l.
  Mine does. I helped design the system that figures it out automatically from our smart meters. When the power drops a good number (although not all due to network topology) of "Power Down' messages come back to us before the meter fully discharges. we run this through the 'old school' system that figures out, based on known network design and those reporting loss of power, the scope of the outage as quick as possible.
22. Re:No fraud checking? by Thing+1 · 2012-04-09 14:26 · Score: 1
  
  Without meter-by-meter inspection, you can't tell if loss of household income (layoff) caused increased frugality or if they tampered with the meter, as long as they keep from pushing usage down by less than 25% or so.
  So obviously, the power companies need access to IRS records. And credit reports. </sarcasm>
  
  --
  I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
23. Re:No fraud checking? by NeoMorphy · 2012-04-09 16:48 · Score: 1
  
  Oh ya, another issue. It is often too expensive or too much of a bother for utilities to send someone out to check for fraud on just a suspicion. And they may want police with them in case of altercations. I think a lot of this stuff gets overlooked intentionally at times.
  Too much of a bother? Recently, 10 minutes from where I lived, the police discovered huge pot farms in houses dedicated to growing weed. The home owners bypassed the meter so that they wouldn't notice the huge power usage, but I guess they noticed the "lack of usage".
24. Re:No fraud checking? by NeoMorphy · 2012-04-09 16:52 · Score: 1
  
  and replacing the CRT monitors and TVs with LCD monitors and TVs
25. Re:No fraud checking? by Darinbob · 2012-04-09 18:07 · Score: 1
  
  If you're a meter reader, do you want to knock on the door and ask if they're doing anything illegal there? No, they'll call the police instead. That's if they detect things that look like grow houses. But for intermittent tampers there's a hesitance to go onto private property and inspect the meter closely and no sufficient evidence to call the police.
  This isn't the post office where gloom of night can not dissuade them from their rounds. In bad weather they will just estimate your usage for the month based on usage history and then fix it up again the following month. The manual reading is full of mistakes as it is (I was amazed at the number and types of errors when I saw some read reports).
26. Re:No fraud checking? by Whuffo · 2012-04-09 22:57 · Score: 1
  
  There's an unknown amount of leakage across dirty and cracked insulators, i2r losses at resistive connections, etc. They can't really tell in great detail how much they sell vs. how much they generate and determine anything from it.
  
  What does catch their attention is a sudden significant change; if you're going to steal power, start very small and only ramp it up over a period of many months.
27. Re:No fraud checking? by arth1 · 2012-04-09 23:35 · Score: 1
  
  It's not as easy as you think. Certainly not with the precision needed to pinpoint individual leeches.
  Also, the amount of electricity used isn't constant. What the meters register isn't a snapshot in time, but a cumulative usage. It's like catching speeders by checking their odometer.
28. Re:No fraud checking? by Ihmhi · 2012-04-10 00:03 · Score: 1
  
  Electricity is also not a resource like water, where if you don't pump it out one second, you can pump it out the next second. Use it or lose it. Converted to DC, it can be stored in capacitors or batteries, but at a very high cost.
  Okay, now this is something I am genuinely curious about.
  It's a given that electricity is cheaper at night. Hell, the government advises you to run things like dishwashers and laundry at night to reduce the load on the grid.
  When you get solar panels installed, you also usually get battery packs installed in your home to handle the whole "cloudy day" scenario.
  So here's my question: how come just installing the battery packs has never come up as an easy "green" solution? Some battery packs, a timer, and a AC/DC converter and you could just fill the batteries at night and bleed off of them in the daytime. If and when the batteries run low, the connection to the grid can go hot again. It wouldn't be as good as solar panels (for the environment, anyway) but it'd be better than being connected to the grid all the time and way cheaper in the long run I imagine.
  
  --
  Random Thoughts From A Diseased Mind (Not For Dummies)
29. Re:No fraud checking? by CharlyFoxtrot · 2012-04-10 00:46 · Score: 1
  
  Hold your horses. It's just common sense to monitor big fluctuations in usage because it could indicate problems whether it be cheaters or a leak or some other problem on the network. This is the same reason sysadmins record historic stats for cpu/disk/network/whatever usage. And when something does shift you better investigate it, it's nothing nefarious just good stewardship.
  
  --
  If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error.
30. Re:No fraud checking? by arth1 · 2012-04-10 01:08 · Score: 2
  
  So here's my question: how come just installing the battery packs has never come up as an easy "green" solution? Some battery packs, a timer, and a AC/DC converter and you could just fill the batteries at night and bleed off of them in the daytime. If and when the batteries run low, the connection to the grid can go hot again. It wouldn't be as good as solar panels (for the environment, anyway) but it'd be better than being connected to the grid all the time and way cheaper in the long run I imagine.
  I'm the wrong kind of engineer, but as far as I can tell, the difference between day and night prices isn't big enough. A typical lead accumulator battery will have around 60-75% efficiency, and an AC/DC converter around 70-90%, and you have to use it twice.
  So you land at around 30-60% total efficiency.
  So to get 10 kwH out of them at day, you have to buy 17-33 kwH at night. Then factor in the costs of buying/maintaining/replacing the batteries.
  Is the price difference that big?
  You can, probably, take advantage of some of the heat loss to warm up a basement during winter, but it still doesn't seem like a winning tactic.
  It's a win for solar panels because the electricity you get from them is already DC, so there's one conversion less compared to selling it back to the grid.
31. Re:No fraud checking? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-04-10 05:49 · Score: 0
  
  generally you undo everything before the scheduled monthly meter read and put it back afterwords.
  
  After which words? Are they specific, or can any old dictionary word work?
If it will "cost companies more"... by whovian · 2012-04-09 06:10 · Score: 2

...it will likely cost consumers more, i.e, the cost will be passed on to the consumer. I am completely unsurprised to hear of this.

--
To-do List: Receive telemarketing call during a tornado warning. Check.
Negative energy use? by PolygamousRanchKid+ · 2012-04-09 06:10 · Score: 1

I pay a fixed amount every month, and then at the end of the year, I either have to pay more or get a rebate. Do you think that the public utility's billing software is smart enough to notice that my rebate is bigger than what I paid?
Probably not.

--
Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
1. Re:Negative energy use? by nprz · 2012-04-09 18:54 · Score: 1
  
  Well, if you have solar or another renewable energy source it wouldn't be impossible to think of.
  But many public utility companies have a policy to not pay out even if you produce more than you consume.
Business model by Dunbal · 2012-04-09 06:13 · Score: 4, Insightful

So the power company says "I know, let's make a bunch of money by using smart meters. That way we can fire all the people we used to send out to go read meters, and we can maximize our profits by having variable billing throughout the day."
"Oh, and let's make sure to contract these meters out to the lowest bidder because after all, people are morons and if they don't realize that we're shafting them by getting them to pay more for their electricity, certainly they will never be smart enough to figure out our meters"
"Oh shit, our meters can be hacked! These guys are CRIMINALS help help government HELP come save us!". That way we don't have to invest in more secure meters, or go back to the old meters. No, we can continue with minimal staff, continue with crappy hackable meters, and stick the cost of our broken business model to the government, the court system, and of course the prison system. Why should we have to share any of these unforseen costs from a business model we forgot to think through properly? Maximum profit is our GOD GIVEN RIGHT.

--
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
1. Re:Business model by Anonymous Coward · 2012-04-09 06:19 · Score: 0
  
  No, they still need someone to read the meter at close proximity in most cases. Not all of them call home, you need to at least drive by the home to get the read in some cases, just don't make shit up. I do have to laugh, I've interviewed for jobs designing this sort of thing and what a bunch of pompous asses GE and the like are when it comes to this.
2. Re:Business model by Beardo+the+Bearded · 2012-04-09 06:20 · Score: 2
  
  My power company is run by the government.
  BC Hydro. They just started rolling out these smart meters. They're pointless. If they'd gone with something like a Schneider Ion then they could figure out how to reduce energy consumption in the home. As it is, they can't even get billing and metering to talk to each other.
  And there's been a recall already.
  
  --
  
  ---
  ECHELON is a government program to find words like bomb, jihad, plutonium, assassinate, and anarchy.
3. Re:Business model by Anonymous Coward · 2012-04-09 06:25 · Score: 0
  
  You too, eh? Quebec is the same. Almost as if there's some kind of collusion going on with companies that make meters. Nah.
4. Re:Business model by Anonymous Coward · 2012-04-09 06:25 · Score: 0
  
  If you have these guys, they all call home.
  http://www.silverspringnet.com/
  Now you can hack PG&E from the comfort of a non-extradition country.
5. Re:Business model by Anonymous Coward · 2012-04-09 06:31 · Score: 0
  
  you save money by not getting a yearly bill, but doing basic math isn't a GOD GIVEN RIGHT to americans...
6. Re:Business model by Anonymous Coward · 2012-04-09 06:33 · Score: 0
  
  Are you sure this is about the power company 'business model'? I'm not convinced the power companies were all that interested in deploying smart meters in the first place. Aren't they being pressured to do this by governments with green energy policies?
  "I know, lets control everyone's power remotely, so we can turn off their stuff and Save The Planet. Also, we can collect detailed information on personal behavior and create new ways to penalize non-conformance. We'll get a free pass even from people that normally care about their privacy and liberty because its FOR THE ENVIRONMENT!"
7. Re:Business model by slimjim8094 · 2012-04-09 06:44 · Score: 1
  
  In your rant about the government, you neglected to remember (or maybe just didn't know) that meter fraud has ALWAYS happened, and ALWAYS been illegal. The government already prosecutes people for theft of service.
  In fact, smarter meters are harder to trick, so it's likely that these smart meters have LESS fraud.
  Given your rant about the "maximizing profits" by variable rate billing, I can safely assume you don't know the first thing about the electrical system in this country. It may feel very truthy that they're screwing you over, but read up on it sometime.
  
  --
  I have developed a truly marvelous proof of this comment, which this signature is too narrow to contain.
8. Re:Business model by Anonymous Coward · 2012-04-09 06:45 · Score: 2, Funny
  
  When I hear "BC Hydro", I don't think of electricity.
9. Re:Business model by tomhath · 2012-04-09 06:55 · Score: 3, Informative
  
  The primary purpose is to provide an incentive for customers to shift energy use to non-peak hours. By doing that the peak load is reduced, which is a big cost saver for the utilities (less total generation and transmission capacity required).
10. Re:Business model by CanHasDIY · 2012-04-09 07:12 · Score: 2
  
  The primary purpose is to provide an incentive for customers to shift energy use to non-peak hours. By doing that the peak load is reduced, which is a big cost saver for the utilities (less total generation and transmission capacity required).
  Well, easy enough then; it's not as if most people's schedules are determined by outlying factors or anything... /sarc
  
  That's some serious mental gymnastics they must do if they honestly believe such nonsense. How am I or anyone else supposed to "shift energy use to non-peak hours" when our working schedules are determined by our employers? Surely the people running these utilities (who, consequently, tend to work 8-5 jobs as well) aren't so dumb as to think that's a viable strategy, are they?
  
  --
  An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
11. Re:Business model by Anonymous Coward · 2012-04-09 07:14 · Score: 0
  
  Paid xyz price before smart meters, after smart meters it nearly doubled. Same with the smart meters for water. Just want to make more $$
12. Re:Business model by NewWorldDan · 2012-04-09 07:14 · Score: 1
  
  If someone is tampering with their meter, they are a criminal and should be prosecuted. Everyone who tampers with their meter raises the rates for honest customers, like me. Most utilities are natural monopolies and their pricing is tightly regulated. Yes, whoever built meters that are so easily tampered with should be sued out of existance as well.
  Lastly, having pricing that more accurately reflects the cost of the power supplied potentially creates more efficient usage. While some power plants can be spun up and down very easily, others (like nuclear) have a fairly static output. So if you can shift some things from high demand times to low demand times, power becomes cheaper for everyone. I run my dishwasher in the middle of the night (it has a delayed start option, so I can set it and forget it). For responsible people, this is a win all around.
13. Re:Business model by Jessified · 2012-04-09 07:27 · Score: 1
  
  so much win.
14. Re:Business model by Jessified · 2012-04-09 07:29 · Score: 1
  
  I'm a BC resident too. I already forwarded this on to the Province (our low-brow tabloid-ish 'newspaper').
15. Re:Business model by ColdWetDog · 2012-04-09 07:39 · Score: 1
  
  How am I or anyone else supposed to "shift energy use to non-peak hours" when our working schedules are determined by our employers?
  For somebody with "Do It Yourself' in your nic, you seem kinda stuck.
  May I introduce you to the concept of a timer? Something that might turn your hot water heater or your clothes dryer on at night? Although not common as of yet, you can likely see that such a technology isn't exactly cutting edge. It would not be difficult to design newer clothes dryers and dishwashers to go on at night when the power is cheaper. One could even cobble up an aftermarket gizmo to do that. Obviously won't work for everything in the house, but even a 10% reduction in peak load is a considerable savings to a power company.
  
  --
  Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
16. Re:Business model by ColdWetDog · 2012-04-09 07:40 · Score: 1
  
  Paid xyz price before smart meters, after smart meters it nearly doubled. Same with the smart meters for water. Just want to make more $$
  Complaining that they caught your basement pot farm, are you? Sad Panda!
  
  --
  Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
17. Re:Business model by an+unsound+mind · 2012-04-09 07:44 · Score: 1
  
  "Hydro" is common slang for "Hydroelectric power".
18. Re:Business model by Anonymous Coward · 2012-04-09 07:48 · Score: 1
  
  OMG ths is nt twitter, u r nt lmtd to 140 chars. Pls use full sentences. 2 hrd 2 rd! ^^
19. Re:Business model by onkelonkel · 2012-04-09 07:51 · Score: 1
  
  Herp Derp. They are making appliances with timers now. I can tell my dishwasher to run in the middle of the night.
  
  --
  None of them can see the clouds; The polished wings don't care.
20. Re:Business model by Anonymous Coward · 2012-04-09 07:55 · Score: 0
  
  Yeah he'd really be on the internet posting about it.
21. Re:Business model by CanHasDIY · 2012-04-09 07:57 · Score: 2
  
  May I introduce you to the concept of a timer? Something that might turn your hot water heater or your clothes dryer on at night?
  Words of someone who has never awakened in a house set ablaze by a dryer fire.
  
  It would not be difficult to design newer clothes dryers and dishwashers to go on at night when the power is cheaper. One could even cobble up an aftermarket gizmo to do that. Obviously won't work for everything in the house, but even a 10% reduction in peak load is a considerable savings to a power company.
  Since when is it my responsibility, as the customer, to spend my money and time making devices that save the power company money?
  
  For somebody with "Do It Yourself' in your nic, you seem kinda stuck.
  Or, I'm not sucker. DIY is for my benefit, not that of the utility company.
  
  --
  An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
22. Re:Business model by CanHasDIY · 2012-04-09 08:02 · Score: 1
  
  Herp Derp. They are making appliances with timers now. I can tell my dishwasher to run in the middle of the night.
  So, the dishwasher is the only appliance you run when you're off work? no TV, laptop, light bulbs, gaming console, radio, etc., etc. etc.? Why not put them on all timers to run during "off-peak" hours; I mean, if you're going to put that much effort into saving the power company money, why not go full bore?
  
  Oh, and never mind the fact that if enough people move their power usage to "off-peak hours," those hours are no longer off-peak.
  
  "Herp Derp" indeed.
  
  --
  An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
23. Re:Business model by Curunir_wolf · 2012-04-09 08:03 · Score: 1
  
  Nah, they're just installing the smart meters so they can jack up everyone's electric bill, and then just claim "Well these are more accurate, it just means you were being undercharged before!".
  
  --
  "Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
  --- Jerry Garcia
24. Re:Business model by Idarubicin · 2012-04-09 08:15 · Score: 1
  
  Since when is it my responsibility, as the customer, to spend my money and time making devices that save the power company money?
  It's not.
  On the other hand, you can't bitch about it when you're charged more for usage that costs the power company more money.
  Or did you think that it was the responsibility of the people who use cheap, off-peak power to subsidize your lifestyle?
  
  --
  ~Idarubicin
25. Re:Business model by lgw · 2012-04-09 08:22 · Score: 2
  
  In man places, the dryer and water heater are gas-powered, and and so don't really come into the picture. A (reasonably modern) water heater uses very little power "at idle", and most of its power bringing the tank back up to temp right after you use hot water, so there's very little savings in turning off the heater on a timer. If you actually care about the small amount of power your water heater uses, switch to (reasonably modern) flash heaters.
  The main thing with the dryer is not to run it during peak AC load time - you don't need to wait till you're asleep.
  In the South, putting your AC on a timer (or just manually adjusting it before leaving fo work) is all that really matters.
  
  --
  Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
26. Re:Business model by White+Yeti · 2012-04-09 08:53 · Score: 1
  
  My utility sent out info about their on-going switch to smart meters. They'll save money by not having meter readers driving to each home! Yay! There's also a new line item on the monthly bill: Smart meter. They didn't say *I* would save money, after all. Plus I don't yet have a smart meter.
27. Re:Business model by DamonHD · 2012-04-09 09:15 · Score: 1
  
  Cheapest in terms of utility costs and thus also to you would be a flat demand 'curve', and once that was achieved then great, your work is done, but loads continue to need to be run at these new times to maintain that flat line.
  However, with intermittent renewables being added to the grid another GoodThing(TM) is to match consumption to available generation.
  In fact I try to shift big loads (washing machine and dishwasher) to periods where the CO2 emitted per kWh (carbon intensity) is as low as possible, in the wee hours and/or when wind generation is particularly high, see my live chart: http://www.earth.org.uk/_gridCarbonIntensityGB.html
  I have also arranged to work from home much of the time, so I *can* organise when I do things, and certainly don't have to do a 9--5 bracketed by commutes each working day.
  Rgds
  Damon
  
  --
  http://m.earth.org.uk/
28. Re:Business model by 0111+1110 · 2012-04-09 10:22 · Score: 1
  
  If someone is tampering with their meter, they are a criminal and should be prosecuted.
  Well, duh. Has anyone here denied that stealing electricity is unethical and against the law? I suspect that outside of third world countries electricity theft is exceedingly rare. So you get to cut your electricity bill by 25% if you are smart or 50% or more if you are stupid and you're going to risk going to prison and getting a criminal record for that? Unless you use absolutely immense amounts of electricity, in which case you can probably afford it anyway, the risk totally isn't justified by the reward. I tend not to believe anything the FBI says anyway. They're a bunch of professional liars. They are almost certainly exaggerating.
  
  --
  Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.
29. Re:Business model by Anonymous Coward · 2012-04-09 13:02 · Score: 0
  
  I don't intend to be recognized in any way for this comment, but thank you. Your comment brought up a point of view I hadn't thought of where business can effectively pass their operating costs onto society by lobbying for enforcement instead of using better business practices.
30. Re:Business model by Thing+1 · 2012-04-09 14:35 · Score: 1
  
  Words of someone who has never awakened in a house set ablaze by a dryer fire.
  Agreed. In my case it was a grease fire (ex left cooking oil on low since fucking noon and woke me up screaming fire in Portuguese at 3 am), but yes, I never. Ever. Want to again wake up to my house burning down. That includes due to large dangerous devices powering themselves up while I'm sleeping.
  
  --
  I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
31. Re:Business model by Fjandr · 2012-04-09 20:16 · Score: 1
  
  The actual business model is: "The Federal government is providing massive subsidies if we upgrade to smart grid."
  End of story. Yes, I personally know people who work in the utility industry deploying smart grid infrastructure for exactly that reason. The Federal government is already involved, being the primary reason for the deployment already.
32. Re:Business model by AmiMoJo · 2012-04-09 22:51 · Score: 1
  
  Since when is it my responsibility, as the customer, to spend my money and time making devices that save the power company money?
  Well since a large part of what they charge you is down to their costs you are in fact helping yourself. Seriously, you can't see that?
  
  --
  const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
  SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
33. Re:Business model by CanHasDIY · 2012-04-10 02:19 · Score: 1
  
  On the other hand, you can't bitch about it when you're charged more for usage that costs the power company more money.
  Or did you think that it was the responsibility of the people who use cheap, off-peak power to subsidize your lifestyle?
  ... Was your response to
  
  How am I or anyone else supposed to "shift energy use to non-peak hours" when our working schedules are determined by our employers? Surely the people running these utilities (who, consequently, tend to work 8-5 jobs as well) aren't so dumb as to think that's a viable strategy, are they?
  Here, this should help you: http://academic.cuesta.edu/acasupp/as/309.HTM
  
  You're welcome.
  
  --
  An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
34. Re:Business model by CanHasDIY · 2012-04-10 02:39 · Score: 1
  
  For the record, I mean no disrespect for those who are able to make the changes necessary to move their power consumption to 'off-peak' times; I was merely pointing out the futility of utilities 'encouraging' people to adopt new living patterns that are completely unfeasible for the vast majority of the population.
  
  If the company I'm working for would allow me to work from home (which they should, as no aspect of my current employment demands a physical presence), I too would be shifting a lot of my usage to off-peak hours, if only by virtue of the fact I would actually be at my residence during said hours.
  
  --
  An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
35. Re:Business model by Idarubicin · 2012-04-10 02:46 · Score: 1
  
  I'm not sure what's confusing you here. The power objectively costs more to supply during peak hours. Either the power company charges a flat rate, in which case the off-peak users subsidize the peak users, or the power company charges tiered rates, so that people using more expensive electricity pay more.
  The price you're paying more closely represents the costs incurred to provide you with electricity. Either change your lifestyle - which may well be very difficult for you - or accept that some other people who have made different choices from you will pay less for their power.
  You've been enjoying a free ride for years; now you're not. Suck it up.
  
  --
  ~Idarubicin
36. Re:Business model by CanHasDIY · 2012-04-10 03:18 · Score: 1
  
  Since when is it my responsibility, as the customer, to spend my money and time making devices that save the power company money?
  Well since a large part of what they charge you is down to their costs you are in fact helping yourself. Seriously, you can't see that?
  Your local utility must be far more altruistic than mine; around these parts, rate hikes happen regularly, across the board, with no explanation greater than "we felt like it." In fact, if more consumers moved their usage to off-peak hours, the utility (which is technically a 'public' utility, even though the local government allows them to run it as though it were a private business) would just start charging more for those hours to make up for the lost profits.
  
  Seriously. The mafia would run a more fair utility than the people in charge of it now.
  
  --
  An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
37. Re:Business model by CowTipperGore · 2012-04-10 06:17 · Score: 1
  
  A few important points:
  1. The federal government is very strongly pushing the electric utilities to implement "smart grid" technologies, whether or not the business wants it.
  2. Electric utilities do not contract out construction of their meters and development of the software. There are a few vendors in this market and you will use one of them.
  3. You seem to be implying that utilities should have no recourse for customers who steal service. Surely this isn't your position.
  4. I actually RTFA and I was pretty blown away by the comments at the end by the guy at Itron. He passes the buck, saying, "Utilities have to be more enterprise security-aware." Absolutely, but the utilities are using the crap you sold them. As arguably the premier player in this space, the responsibility to create secure meters falls squarely on Itron's shoulders.
38. Re:Business model by Anonymous Coward · 2012-04-17 09:06 · Score: 0
  
  You need to pay a rather unreasonable amount of attention to electricity spot prices to affect your bill that way. The best you can reasonably do is get a general feel for which hours are good and time usage to match. Once more people do this it all shifts around again.
39. Re:Business model by DamonHD · 2012-04-17 09:25 · Score: 1
  
  In general, possibly.
  But with more intermittents on the grid, less so.
  There have been negative (or damn-near so even at retail) prices on US, German and Spanish grids at times recently, probably flagged up well in advance on the news. Good time time wash those towels at 90C, give your dishwasher its maintenance wash, charge every battery to hand, heat the house enough to kill bed-bugs, etc!
  Those events will not happen at fixed times of day.
  I've noticed the GB grid becoming less predictable by time of day with extra interconnectors and wind power coming on-line for example, or at least I think that's what I've been seeing.
  Rgds
  Damon
  
  --
  http://m.earth.org.uk/
Obviously. by Reverand+Dave · 2012-04-09 06:20 · Score: 4, Insightful

The problems started when we deregulated this industry. The smart meter debacle is just another symptom of a system that is rotten to the core. Where I live, power rates were heavily affected by the Enron fueled energy crisis and the rates have scarcely dropped since they were artificially driven up. Year after year the power company has been asking for $0.20 rate hikes because they know they can talk the PUC into giving them at least half of what they want. All the while claiming to be losing money while the parent company of the utility is making record profits.

If the Utilities were regulated then they might have to spend a little more on the secure tech instead of the cheapest crap available. They would have a more vested interest in it since their single motivating factor is to provide service instead of to make as much money as possible.

--
I got here through a series of tubes
1. Re:Obviously. by Anonymous Coward · 2012-04-09 06:32 · Score: 1
  
  If they are deregulated, why do they have to go to the PUC for rate hikes?
  Why does it matter if the parent company is making record profits if the utility itself is losing money? (Or, why should the parent company have to spend its profits from other ventures in order to deliver electricity to you?)
  Why in the world do you think "providing service" is more of a motivating factor than money? If it was, none of these things would be an issue now...
2. Re:Obviously. by Anonymous Coward · 2012-04-09 06:35 · Score: 1
  
  Bullshit.
  The CA PUC is one of the most entrenched regulatory institutions in the whole US. All they do is run interference for PG&E while they screw us with their self-serving smart meters.
  PG&E blows up a bay area neighborhood? No problem. CPUC has their back again and let's PG&E hike their rates to pay for their own negligence.
  Getting a paycheck from a government entity doesn't magically turn you into a saint.
3. Re:Obviously. by morari · 2012-04-09 06:51 · Score: 1
  
  The main problem is that utility companies are for-profit. Your electricity should not be run by a for-profit organization, period. My water isn't for-profit, nor are my recycling services. For some reason though, the power companies are allowed to deny access to alternate generation and distribution centers, provide the most piss-poor service possible, and still raise rates year after year. It's easily one of the most crooked industries in the country.
  
  --
  "He who can destroy a thing, controls a thing." --Paul Atreides, Dune
4. Re:Obviously. by Anonymous Coward · 2012-04-09 06:56 · Score: 0
  
  The obvious upside is that this will only make alternative energy sources more appealing and affordable. Eventually their greed could spark an alternative energy revolution in your neighborhood.
5. Re:Obviously. by Reverand+Dave · 2012-04-09 07:23 · Score: 1
  
  This was the point I was more or less trying to make, thanks for clarifying. Sorry if I wasn't clear.
  
  --
  I got here through a series of tubes
6. Re:Obviously. by Anonymous Coward · 2012-04-09 07:30 · Score: 0
  
  The main problem is that utility companies are for-profit. Your electricity should not be run by a for-profit organization, period
  Not this. Not this at all.
  Oddly, Texas is doing it correctly. I was able to choose who provides my electricity. The rates are competitive. If I wish to get my power generated from windmills, or solar, or magical rainbow farting unicorns, I could simply pay a different provider. They have a handy website too.
7. Re:Obviously. by Anonymous Coward · 2012-04-09 13:48 · Score: 0
  
  HA!
  The problem is protectionism. Always has been. Always will be. Any rot you see is systemic; it is a necessary result of franchise utility monopoly. Your fantasy of outside regulators making up for the incentive to be productive is just that, a fantasy.
8. Re:Obviously. by Fjandr · 2012-04-09 20:20 · Score: 1
  
  The utilities were never deregulated. They were differently regulated. Electrical utilities are still among the most heavily regulated businesses in the United States.
  That's not to say the system isn't rotten, but deregulation is not something that ever actually happened.
9. Re:Obviously. by dargaud · 2012-04-10 01:07 · Score: 1
  
  My water isn't for-profitMy water isn't for-profit
  In France water utilities were sold years ago with the usual line "private companies are more efficient, la-la-la". Net result: some cities saw the price of their water multiplied by 20 in a matter of years !!! It was a rather big scandal as they were sold to only 2 mega-corps (Generale des Eaux and Lyonnaise des Eaux) who were friends with the govermint of the time.
  
  --
  Non-Linux Penguins ?
The "other" hacking? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-04-09 06:22 · Score: 5, Interesting

What about thieves who regularly intercept wireless signals from the meters to determine occupancy patterns, then come back and break in when no one's home?
Do these meters have end-to-end encryption? Inquiring minds want to know.
captcha: quality
1. Re:The "other" hacking? by jessehager · 2012-04-09 07:36 · Score: 3, Informative
  
  Saw this gizmo earlier today: http://www.gridinsight.com/
  Since anyone can buy a receiver to read their own meters, I'm going to say "probably not."
2. Re:The "other" hacking? by ColdWetDog · 2012-04-09 07:43 · Score: 1, Funny
  
  What about thieves who regularly intercept wireless signals from the meters to determine occupancy patterns, then come back and break in when no one's home?
  Do these meters have end-to-end encryption?
  Just take one of your spare tin foil hats and wrap it around the meter. That way the black helicopters can't sneak up on you.
  
  --
  Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
3. Re:The "other" hacking? by onkelonkel · 2012-04-09 07:59 · Score: 2
  
  Holy cow! I am aghast with shock and alarm! I will panic soonest!
  
  Around here thieves will look to see if any cars are in the driveway, and then ring the doorbell to see if anybody is home.
  
  --
  None of them can see the clouds; The polished wings don't care.
4. Re:The "other" hacking? by lordmage · 2012-04-09 08:30 · Score: 2
  
  That is SOOO ancient. Around here they have these heat detecting scanners that the thieves use to detect any body heat inside before they then use the nifty "Super Steel Toed boots 2000" to break in.
  
  --
  I can program myself out of a Hello World Contest!!
5. Re:The "other" hacking? by DamonHD · 2012-04-09 09:18 · Score: 1
  
  The smart meter infrastructure in the UK is likely to be over GPRS/3G/whatever, so for a start is encrypted over the air reasonably well whatever the end-to-end encoding is.
  Rgds
  Damon
  
  --
  http://m.earth.org.uk/
6. Re:The "other" hacking? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-04-09 16:03 · Score: 0
  
  The smart meters used here have two fold protection.
  The ssid is hidden, it's combination of mac address and the device serial number.
  In order to logon to that wlan, you need the manufacturing company issued certificate.
  After joining the wlan, you need RSA dongle to gain access to setup webservice.
  Most models provide read-only access to measurements, but the dongle is needed in order to change the multiplier etc.(the variables which affect the measurements)
7. Re:The "other" hacking? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-04-09 16:47 · Score: 1
  
  I work for a smart grid company, and we do offer end-to-end encryption. That being said, there are millions of smart meters already out there that don't have encryption, they are models from previous years. Note that utilities buy meters expecting at least 15 years of life out of them. Security has only become a hot topic in the industry in the past ~5 years.
GOOD, they deserve the loss. ... grrr. by Anonymous Coward · 2012-04-09 06:24 · Score: 1

They can randomly jack up the price from 4 cents a KW/h to 18 cents .. whenever they feel like it.
They usually do it during holidays when everyone's home etc or during the winter. It has nothing
to do with supply and demand and everything to do with screwing customers.
1. Re:GOOD, they deserve the loss. ... grrr. by Anonymous Coward · 2012-04-09 06:33 · Score: 0
  
  They can randomly jack up the price from 4 cents a KW/h to 18 cents .. whenever they feel like it.
  They usually do it during holidays when everyone's home etc or during the winter. It has nothing
  to do with supply and demand and everything to do with screwing customers.
  I see you aren't familiar with the concept of supply and demand.
2. Re:GOOD, they deserve the loss. ... grrr. by Anonymous Coward · 2012-04-09 07:23 · Score: 0
  
  Uhh, except that it's a regulated market. "supply side economics" only occurs in relatively unregulated economies. This is a heavily regulated utility.
Not really suprised. by Anonymous Coward · 2012-04-09 06:30 · Score: 0

Wasn't this pointed out years ago, that the new "smart meter" networks had essentially zero security?
I guess outfitting millions of nodes with devices and infrastructure that supported a legitimate security model was cost prohibitive.
To do it properly I'd assume you'd need some sort of verifiable trusts, certificates for each node, a data center to manage all that. God. What a nightmare that would be. Imagine trying to meter a device that fell off the network because it missed a cert renewal, or someone forgetting that their CA certs expired and they did not update all the smart meter's credentials, causing massive system wide falloff.
I bet it would be more expensive than the costs saved from remote meter reading.
Beyond that, does anyone else buy this nonsense about "smart power?" The idea that individual appliances will be somehow managed by the power company according to current power demand. The idea is that you can run devices at off-peak hours to save money. I'm not seeing many practical applications for this. Load your dishwasher and run it at night? Same for washing machine and dryer? It would have to be a LOT cheaper to justify the loss of convenience. As far as I know the real big draws are heating and cooling.. Demands that are fixed because of seasonal and day/night cycles. Perhaps if we all had plug-in electric cars or hybrids.
1. Re:Not really suprised. by Anonymous Coward · 2012-04-09 07:11 · Score: 0
  
  Given how many dishwashers catch fire and burn peoples homes down.
  It's not a smart idea to run them while you sleep.
Smart meters need to be hardcoded by Karmashock · 2012-04-09 06:31 · Score: 1

Why is this so hard? Set the whole thing up with ROM that the unit cannot change on it's own. If a hacker manually hacks their unit that is one thing but it's a really bad idea if people can "update" the firmware of the meters remotely with foreign code. Assuming they really like that idea, every unit needs a unique authentication code. By all means, have that code be centrally stored or and summoned automatically by the utility database. But compromising one unit shouldn't lead to them all being compromised. The whole thing has to be compartmentalized.

--
I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
1. Re:Smart meters need to be hardcoded by Anonymous Coward · 2012-04-09 06:39 · Score: 0
  
  And how does the cost of this security compare with the revenues lost to hacking?
2. Re:Smart meters need to be hardcoded by azadrozny · 2012-04-09 07:41 · Score: 1
  
  The hackers are getting in through an optical admin/maintenance port on the meter. I doubt that the property owner was ever meant to use it. I too am shocked that it does not (appear to) have any authentication for a connection. I don't know how these meters phone home, but it must be fast enough to authenticate a user.
+1 to FA for covert Dilbert quote by khendron · 2012-04-09 06:34 · Score: 2

"...paradigm shifting without a clutch"
I always liked that quote. Too bad the FA article felt the need to [edit] it.

--
Life is like a web application. Sometime you need cookies just to get by.
1. Re:+1 to FA for covert Dilbert quote by Fjandr · 2012-04-09 20:21 · Score: 1
  
  You can certainly paradigm shift without a clutch. You just need to know the paradigms well enough to know at what point they're synchronized. :)
Balance by gQuigs · 2012-04-09 06:43 · Score: 1

Obviously, this is not a good development. I also don't see this being that difficult for the utilities to detect through other means.
But the bigger question is control and oversight of these devices by the homeowners themselves. Homeowners should be allowed to directly access the data on their smart meter. It can be very advantageous to the homeowner to know when there power usage peaks among other items.
Smart meters will eventually have more control of turning off devices in the home. Homeowners need to be firmly in control of that kind of functionality. At the same time, utilities need to be able to verify the homeowner really is using what they expect.
1. Re:Balance by FairAndHateful · 2012-04-09 15:51 · Score: 1
  
  But the bigger question is control and oversight of these devices by the homeowners themselves. Homeowners should be allowed to directly access the data on their smart meter. It can be very advantageous to the homeowner to know when there power usage peaks among other items.
  I get an email from my power company once a week. It charts out the total usage for the week, extrapolates what my expected bill will be, and it also indicates how much I've used from hour to hour throughout the week. It's been pretty helpful. My company just has a flat rate, so I haven't had to worry about peak usage rates, but I've been able to use the information in the email to figure out how to conserve some energy. It'd be kinda cool to be able to access the meter directly, but the email message is more than enough..
2. Re:Balance by CowTipperGore · 2012-04-10 06:34 · Score: 1
  
  This is a big part of the "smart grid" push from the DoE. Some of the largest electric utilities are providing customers with boxes to mount in their house that provides the sort of stuff you want. These boxes communicate with your meter via Xbee. However, you seem to be an abnormal customer - most utilities report that customers do not want these boxes.
  Many utilities also offer online access to your data and/or scheduled emails with usage reports.
Turn About by Anonymous Coward · 2012-04-09 07:18 · Score: 0

Abuse of personal information by utility companies may have cost Americans Billions anually
Public already percives these as unreliable by linebackn · 2012-04-09 07:59 · Score: 2

Where I live, these smart meters are already viewed as unreliable by the general public. The local news has reported numerous stories about how people's water bills suddenly went up after these new "smart" meters were installed.
The thing is, there is no way for the general public to verify how accurate or reliable these meters are.
Ideally these should be extremely simple, easily auditable, devices. But I can imagine the specs for something like this growing until it can send e-mail... using a database... and object orientation... and XML... on the web... in Microsoft .NET... now with HTML 5... and so on.
1. Re:Public already percives these as unreliable by DamonHD · 2012-04-09 09:23 · Score: 1
  
  Well yes there is, to a reasonable degree, if the meter has a display that can be eyeballed in the old-fashioned way.
  For example, turn *everything* off in the house and make sure that the meter stops, then turn on some devices/appliances via the equivalent of a Kill-a-Watt and compare what they claim is being used over an hour or so vs the utility meter (allowing a little for self-consumption of the Kill-a-Watt).
  If there is a huge discrepancy it should be obvious.
  I can account for the ~4kWh we use per day in this house pretty accurately.
  Of course, any errors/bugs may be more subtle than that, but taking daily meter readings will spot if there is a sudden jump from time to time (or your teenager just came back home).
  Rgds
  Damon
  
  --
  http://m.earth.org.uk/
2. Re:Public already percives these as unreliable by Darinbob · 2012-04-09 13:27 · Score: 1
  
  That's the biggest problem. Politics from smart meters trumps actual facts. California PUC determined the reasons for the increase in bills, but people ignore that as long as they've heard a story from a friend who heard it from a friend who heard it from a friend.
3. Re:Public already percives these as unreliable by Darinbob · 2012-04-09 16:25 · Score: 1
  
  There are Zigbee enabled devices that will do most of this. Even turn stuff off automatically for you or just report what your current usage and price is.
4. Re:Public already percives these as unreliable by Anonymous Coward · 2012-04-09 16:53 · Score: 0
  
  Exactly. New meters (including smart meters), undergo exhaustive testing by the meter manufacturers, the utilities themselves, and the regulatory bodies. And that's before installation begins, because utilities don't want to install millions of new meters only to find out afterwards they are inaccurate! Old analog meters (electric, water, and gas) were notoriously unreliable, at least compared to the digital ones that we have today. But for many decades, all we had were analog meters, so people were used to them. When a new digital and highly accurate meter is installed, it's not uncommon for bills to increase, and some people get mad. Of course, they blame the new things, rather than realizing they were getting an unauthorized discount for many years beforehand.
5. Re:Public already percives these as unreliable by DamonHD · 2012-04-09 17:45 · Score: 1
  
  Indeed, and I have stuff like that, but I'm talking about things that Jo User could do without massive tech expenditure to see if their utility meter is obviously crazy. We can borrow a Kill-a-Watt equivalent from our local library for free, for example.
  And regularly reading your meters is a good low-tech way of getting a good feel for consumption which is much of what the 'smart' bit is meant to help with anyway.
  Rgds
  Damon
  
  --
  http://m.earth.org.uk/
6. Re:Public already percives these as unreliable by Gavagai80 · 2012-04-09 17:49 · Score: 1
  
  And the reason it seems like people are getting cheated instead of gifted with the better accuracy is simple: when someone's bill goes down, they keep quiet and don't make a fuss. Even if the same number of people are getting lower bills as get higher bills, the people with the higher bills are the ones out saturating the media.
  
  --
  This space intentionally left blank
7. Re:Public already percives these as unreliable by CowTipperGore · 2012-04-10 06:42 · Score: 1
  
  The thing is, there is no way for the general public to verify how accurate or reliable these meters are. Ideally these should be extremely simple, easily auditable, devices.
  And the general public can verify their legacy water meter? I know mine is about 3 three feet deep in a manhole with a steel cover and small sensor that the meter reader touches with a wand each month to read my usage.
  
  But I can imagine the specs for something like this growing until it can send e-mail...
  In theory these are the same measurement technology, but instead of incrementing a physical index (or doing only that) the usage is stored electronically and communicated wirelessly. The basic technology is not really different from telemetering equipment that has been used for decades.
What's the difference by g0bshiTe · 2012-04-09 08:42 · Score: 1

between this and old school wiring of a meter to run backwards?

--
I am Bennett Haselton! I am Bennett Haselton!
trust by markhahn · 2012-04-09 09:23 · Score: 1

so will homeowners start installing their own meter on the premises, to verify what the hackable powerco meter is recording? powercos are exactly the kind of non-competitive relics that believe in security-by-obscurity - that is, fiddle with the design until the level of fraud->outcry is low enough to ignore. it's not as if we don't have cheap, secure tech for exactly this kind of application.
If the smart meter... by Lohrno · 2012-04-09 09:25 · Score: 1

If the smart meter does what they plan with it (IE: shutting down things I'm using) I will be looking for a hack as well.
1. Re:If the smart meter... by Darinbob · 2012-04-09 16:21 · Score: 1
  
  I don't know of any that will shut down except for non-payment of bills and only if you're not registered as having life support equipment. There are other meters that will voluntarily turn some appliances off (ie, in Australia you can put water heaters on a separate circuit and have that disabled at certain hours or when utility determines that there is capacity usage).
2. Re:If the smart meter... by Lohrno · 2012-04-09 16:35 · Score: 1
  
  Yeah, voluntarily is fine. I just don't care for them shutting off my laundry or perhaps my computer involuntarily.
3. Re:If the smart meter... by Darinbob · 2012-04-09 18:01 · Score: 1
  
  Basically all they can do now is what they've always been able to do: turn off the meter. In the past this meant sending out a truck and pulling the meter. Now they can shut it off remotely, and turn it back on. Big use actually is for things like student or vacation housing, easy to turn it off and on over the phone.
  This is not the government, they can't exceed the limited authority they have. If they have to shut things down and no one has voluntarily agreed to having kill switches, then they'll just do what they have done in the past during rolling blackouts and cut power to whole neighborhoods.
  (There's also the technique used in some countries such as Brazil where power theft is rampant. Apartment building has shared power meter for all residents, and tamper will kill power to everyone until someone comes out to flip it back on. Thus the tenants have an incentive to police their building :-)
Bullshit by Anonymous Coward · 2012-04-09 10:11 · Score: 3, Informative

On a 200 amp feed the common leg has to be at least 2/0 copper or 4/0 aluminum. That shit is about as thick as a human thumb, requires a radius of several inches to make any kind of turn, and you're suggesting that he "stealthily" diverted it from the meter (one thumb-sized wire) and then routed it back into the meter with a second thumb-sized wire. Not a chance that this happened unless this "master electrician" created a severe fire and electrical hazard by using severely undersized wire.
Never mind the fact this this scenario seems to indicate that a common day-timer was placed serially into a 200 amp circuit, which is just utter bullshit all by itself.
Nice story though.
1. Re:Bullshit by Anonymous Coward · 2012-04-09 23:07 · Score: 1
  
  I pretty much agree with you that the story has some holes, however 200 amp service for residential hasn't always been a standard in all areas of the US. I live up north where we don't need enormous air conditioners to run all summer long and only a few of the homes in my neighborhood have more than 100 amp service and alumuninum for the common leg isn't even code up here. My house (60 years old) has 100amp service and as long as I have lived here I never tripped the master breaker.
2. Re:Bullshit by Anonymous Coward · 2012-04-10 03:58 · Score: 0
  
  Yeah, but even 60 amp service requires 6 gauge aluminum, which is almost as thick as a pinky finger. There just isn't enough room inside a meter pan to "stealthily" do anything with the size of wires that are required.
3. Re:Bullshit by Anonymous Coward · 2012-04-10 04:12 · Score: 0
  
  The service feed is almost always aluminum because it's cheaper and lighter weight than copper. There might be some copper drops from the pole, but I've never seen one and don't suspect I ever will. Code doesn't take over until it reaches the breaker/fuse box, but even then aluminum internal wiring is still usually allowed as long as it is sized correctly (it has to be larger than its copper equivalent) and is terminated correctly. Aluminum tends to expand and contract a little bit when used as electrical wiring, so there are specific rules about terminating aluminum wiring to ensure that it doesn't work itself loose and start arcing inside the walls.
4. Re:Bullshit by Anonymous Coward · 2012-04-10 04:33 · Score: 0
  
  Being European I have no idea how US meters work, but a Watt meter only uses the ground point of a circuit as low reference for voltage measurement.
  And voltmeters are high impedance devices, which means the current flowing through them is negligible.
  Disconnecting the neutral wire from the meter would make the low end of the voltage measurement coil float at the same voltage as the high end.
  And since P = I * U, if the voltage difference is Zero, the measured power is Zero.
5. Re:Bullshit by Anonymous Coward · 2012-04-10 10:37 · Score: 0
  
  And since P = I * U, if the voltage difference is Zero, the measured power is Zero.
  Which would also mean there was no electricity in the house
6. Re:Bullshit by LoRdTAW · 2012-04-12 00:22 · Score: 1
  
  I know this is late but the neutral wire to the meter is only 14-12 AWG. If you read my post carefully I said that there are 5 wires to the meter, two hot legs from the street and two to the panel box. The 5th wire which is the neutral wire, runs to the neutral bus bar. The actual neutral line was not ran into his house, only the meter neutral line. Maybe I should have been more specific.
who didn't see this coming? by Eponymous+Hero · 2012-04-09 10:39 · Score: 1

internet-enable my home energy meter? what could possibly go wrong?

--
insensitive clod overlords obligatory xkcd car analogy russian reversals whoosh pedant fanbois ftfy in 3...2...1..PROFIT
Can I Read It? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-04-09 11:58 · Score: 0

I'd like to be able to read the meter wirelessly, along with the power company. I don't want to defraud or modify the meter. I'd just like to be able to do some logging and MRTG graphing.
Can anyone advise what I need and how to do it?
1. Re:Can I Read It? by CimmerianX · 2012-04-10 02:33 · Score: 1
  
  IF the meters have an active ZigBee chip, you could potentially use that to measure in home power.
2. Re:Can I Read It? by damm0 · 2012-04-11 13:23 · Score: 1
  
  Yup. It's very much in the works. Doing this for one or two people at a time is easy, but doing it for EVERYONE is hard. So it's taking time. But that's the goal.
But otherwise they are great by Anonymous Coward · 2012-04-09 12:03 · Score: 0

So besides raising your bill, inundating your environment, home and family with radio frequencies that are demonstrated to cause double-strand DNA breakages, corrupt the blood-brain barrier, cause development and neurological problems, provide warrentless wiretapping for the state and an open door to hackers, it seems like the 'smart' meter thing is really great.
Smart Meter?
George Orwell.
1. Re:But otherwise they are great by Gavagai80 · 2012-04-09 17:52 · Score: 1
  
  Take your meds.
  
  --
  This space intentionally left blank
Actually your recycling is for profit. by tlambert · 2012-04-09 16:08 · Score: 1

Actually your recycling is for profit.
http://noevalleysf.blogspot.com/2008/10/recycling-theft-469000.html
-- Terry
Re: by Anonymousslashdot · 2012-04-09 22:36 · Score: 1

You're electric bill
No I'm not, Steve ;-P
FPL Smart Meters by CimmerianX · 2012-04-10 02:32 · Score: 1

Even in Florida, FPL has replaced the old meters with Smart meters.
FPL went with the Silversprings solution that uses inline power communication. Each meter sends your hourly usage signal to the pole top router. The Pole top router uses radio mesh to communicate back to the major neighborhood hubs.
All you need to do to hack these things is to find the frequency the comm units use to communicate to the pole-top routers Then build a small device to inject that frequency into the line. You would essentially block the signal and the power voltage would not change. So, turn off a vast majority of devices, activate the device, then use all the power you want. Turn off all devices, then unplug the device. You can run this over the power line from inside the home, so you aren't meter-tampering.
All I would need is the frequency the products use.
1. Re:FPL Smart Meters by damm0 · 2012-04-11 13:21 · Score: 1
  
  I work for Silver Spring Networks. Believe me buddy, it won't be that easy. :)
  There's a few problems with your scheme.
  Mainly, the meter itself is reading your power, and storing it for later. It can store weeks worth of data. So if you cut the comms for a week, the meter will just report the data when comms are re-established.
  If that were the end of the story it wouldn't be very interesting. It isn't. You may consider that there are some wireless ninjas working at SSN, and they probably know about some tricks to avoid the kind of interference you describe, and in fact that may be the very reason that the company has been successful. Just supposing.
No tampering required... no need to touch it by peawormsworth · 2012-04-12 08:02 · Score: 1

These things are not easy to tamper with and have everything from gyrometers and other gizmos that will set off alarms even before someone tries to mess with them.
Why is everyone taking about magnets and opening the meters to cheat the system. Didn't you read the article? The changes are made using wireless Infrared communication. Meaning you dont need to touch the device at all to lower your bill
The changes are made in the exact same way a maintenance operator would communicated with your meter... from a nearby distance, and remotely without opening or touching it. The changes are made as if you are an employee, making actual modifications to the settings in its configuration.

...using an optical converter device — such as an infrared light — connected to a laptop that allows the smart meter to communicate with the computer. After making that connection, the thieves changed the settings for recording power consumption using software that can be downloaded from the Internet.
So this story is quite a bit different from all the other manual methods of 'hacking' ur power meter. Its probably fast and also leaves no fingerprints. Further, there is little way to prove that you (the user) were actually the one who did it.
1. Re:No tampering required... no need to touch it by detritus. · 2012-04-12 15:08 · Score: 1
  
  > Why is everyone taking about magnets and opening the meters to cheat the system. Didn't you read the article?
  I did, but I watched a talk from an expert who secures these things for a living.
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ePWfR6A4_o&t=12m39s
Usually I wouldn't say something like this, but... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-04-12 16:37 · Score: 0

Your old teacher sounds like a crazy bastard (lol): I like him already...
* In fact, sounds like the type of instructor I would have liked and to have even had the pleasure of knowing him actually (because I like people who take what they know, and do something useful, or cool, with it).
I mean, hey: The guy could *THINK*, and do something with it, and was pretty "quick on his feet" in a 'pinch' with the wife falling down the steps deal (partially lucky imo, but still pretty damn slick).
Don't get me wrong anyone - doing illegal shit is bad, but it's still fascinating to see it applied to that!
Plus, like I suspect most others are? Hey - I am no big fan of power companies when they become usurious especially AND considering we ALL should have had FREE power per Tesla's ideas a century++ ago!
E.G.-> In my state, we're paying 3-4x the rates we did around a 7-10 yrs. ago or thereabouts, when the OLD main power company here was bought out by an overseas concern & then the TRIPLE rates started!
Man - it's just like "economic hitmen" do to poorer nations & seize their education, telecommunications, & yes, POWER sources too, and then give them "loans" they can NEVER repay, making them essentially indentured servants... yes, crap like that has gone on in this world.
Anyhow/anyways: Not an EE here, but when you speak of "neutral bars", did you mean the ones in the main fusebox?
See - that I have worked on running 220 around my home for stoves & stuff (didn't like doing it - I bought too heavy of a gauge, probably will NEVER 'wear out' though I am hoping but... just getting it to sit in the breakers took forever, never mind bending it to get it through flooring & such (was like using close hangers almost, lol).
I am SURE you know what I mean, but... still curious here!
* No, I won't even CONSIDER pulling that crap... I don't know enough to do it anyhow. Just curious.
APK
P.S.=> Illegal, yes: Patient, and yes even cool? Absolutely - that's the kind of teacher that gets students THINKING (hopefully not of illegal stuff, but... hey, the point's there!)...
... apk