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Solar Cells That Emit Light Break Efficiency Record

benfrog writes "Researchers at the University of California-Berkeley say they have come up with a counter-intuitive way of making solar cells more efficient — making them emit light. In a press release the scientists claim to be the first to demonstrate that the better solar cells are at emitting photons (the more LED-like they are), the more efficient they are at generating electricity. However, 'unlike an LED, the electrons in a solar cell are absorbing photons from an exterior source as well as emitting their own.'"

139 comments

  1. Break out the mirrors... by HydraSwitch · · Score: 0

    And polish them up.

  2. Idea by busyqth · · Score: 5, Funny

    Why don't they just funnel the emitted light back to the solar panels and thus make them independent of an external light source?
    This would be great for space colonies and sea-floor dwellings.

    1. Re:Idea by X0563511 · · Score: 5, Funny

      In this seafloor habitat dwelling we obey the laws of thermal dynamics!

      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
    2. Re:Idea by YodasEvilTwin · · Score: 1

      "Independent" is a bit strong of a term, given that even if they were perfectly efficient they would need an external source to actual *generate* electricity instead of just maintain their energy. That said, I would assume they would funnel the light back unless (1) it interfered with letting the external light in or (2) it was of a wavelength that was poorly absorbed by the panels anyways.

    3. Re:Idea by mooingyak · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Why don't they just funnel the emitted light back to the solar panels and thus make them independent of an external light source?

      This would be great for space colonies and sea-floor dwellings.

      Thermodynamics and all that. But you could probably sit a couple of these facing each other and recapture some of that light. Also, I'd expect space colonies to have relatively easy access to an external light source.

      --
      William of Ockham had no beard. The most likely explanation is that it was chewed off by squirrels every morning.
    4. Re:Idea by Daniel_Staal · · Score: 5, Informative

      Because the light will be of lower energy (and therefore of a different wavelength) than that which the solar cells absorbed.

      Basically, instead of heating up, these cells emit the energy in a controlled manner, in semi-directed infrared (probably) radiation. No laws of thermodynamics are being bent: The waste product is just closer to the type of the input than in other solar cells.

      You could similarly say that a water turbine is more efficient if it lets water flow out: It is. The water will just have less flow strength than it did when it went in. The difference is what the turbine is collecting as energy. In this case, instead of letting the light 'back up' in the solar cells (as heat), it's released.

      --
      'Sensible' is a curse word.
    5. Re:Idea by CaptainLugnuts · · Score: 2

      Once this gets worked out tailoring the waste output into the IR could be quite useful.

    6. Re:Idea by Intrepid+imaginaut · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This is so cool. Every day brings us closer to glowy alien crystal energy technology.

    7. Re:Idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except for the part where you get, theoretically, the exact same energy from the generator as you do into pumping the water, and practically, it's half or less.

    8. Re:Idea by NatasRevol · · Score: 1

      But it uses gravity! /sarcasm
      (just in case)

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
    9. Re:Idea by geekoid · · Score: 3, Funny

      And that's why we can't have nice things.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    10. Re:Idea by hvm2hvm · · Score: 0

      Trolls trolling trolls that troll trolls.

      --
      ics
    11. Re:Idea by shiftless · · Score: 1

      Actually, I suspect that's why it works so well. The emitted light is being reabsorbed by the panel, increasing overall efficiency. Kinda calls to mind how a reflux still works.

    12. Re:Idea by yurtinus · · Score: 1

      I don't know what's funnier... this post in and of itself, or the "Re:Idea (Score:5, Insightful)" in the header....

      --
      +1 Disagree
    13. Re:Idea by cellocgw · · Score: 1

      In this seafloor habitat dwelling we obey the laws of thermal dynamics!

      As opposed to the laws of *athermal* dynamics?

      Note to the woosh-impaired: "thermodynamics"

      --
      https://app.box.com/WitthoftResume Code: https://github.com/cellocgw
    14. Re:Idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo.

    15. Re:Idea by X0563511 · · Score: 1

      Yea, I noticed after I posted. Nothing I could do about it then :P

      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
    16. Re:Idea by holmstar · · Score: 1

      How about linking to the original source instead of a short summary:

  3. Ehh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sounds like troll-physics.

    1. Re:Ehh by uigrad_2000 · · Score: 3, Informative

      Well, Physicists from MIT beat 100% efficiency a month ago. (of sorts).

      The MIT team called it a LED that functions much like a heat pump. It emitted more optical power than the electrical power it consumed. Apparently the trick is that it results in a lower entropy state, and only works on extremely small scales, so it will never lead to a practical device.

      This story, however, doesn't seem to say at all that they have broken 100% efficiency. They are trying to get the total efficiency up above 30%. The amount of light given out by the cell and the electrical energy given out add up to less than 100%. The slashdot headline leads you to believe that they broke 100%, but that is not what "efficiency record" means in this case.

      --
      Free unix account: freeshell.org
    2. Re:Ehh by PopeRatzo · · Score: 0

      The slashdot headline leads you to believe that they broke 100%

      Please explain how the headline to this story, "Solar Cells That Emit Light Break Efficiency Record" would "lead you to believe" that they broke 100%.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    3. Re:Ehh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Read FAIL

    4. Re:Ehh by Khyber · · Score: 3, Informative

      Go read the article, maybe? The entire LED world is abuzz right now with that news. The only issue is that it requires a HOT ENVIRONMENT, where the LED seems to utilize by converting some of that energy into visible-wavelength emissions, beating the power input/optical power output ratio of 1:1.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    5. Re:Ehh by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      I was joking.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    6. Re:Ehh by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      Beating the ELECTRICAL power input to optical power output ratio of 1:1.

    7. Re:Ehh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Does it require a hot environment on one side and a cold environment on the other, speeding equilibrium when electricity is applied?
      Or does it just sit in a hot environment and make it colder (like the incredible hulk)?

  4. Stands to reason by squidflakes · · Score: 1

    Just like a good reflector of thermal energy also makes an excellent insulator, a good design for converting voltage to photons can be referenced to do the opposite.

    1. Re:Stands to reason by KlomDark · · Score: 3, Informative

      Just like how a speaker can be used as a microphone. It make noise when you run signal-carrying voltage through it, but also makes electricity when you scream into it.

    2. Re:Stands to reason by squidflakes · · Score: 2

      Yep, you can use larger speakers to make really good low frequency mics. Hell, in a pinch you could use your ear buds as a mic for your PC, if that sort of thing ever came up.

    3. Re:Stands to reason by Eponymous+Hero · · Score: 3, Funny

      sure, rage quit a game, throw the mic across the room and realize the plug didn't come with it, and pretty soon you're wearing headphones around the side of your head over your mouth.

      --
      insensitive clod overlords obligatory xkcd car analogy russian reversals whoosh pedant fanbois ftfy in 3...2...1..PROFIT
    4. Re:Stands to reason by RenderSeven · · Score: 2

      Which is why we should have installed speakers in Congress years ago. Screaming politicians could generate scads of Green Energy!

    5. Re:Stands to reason by djlowe · · Score: 3, Funny

      Which is why we should have installed speakers in Congress years ago. Screaming politicians could generate scads of Green Energy!

      I'd think that some sort of thermal conversion would be more in order. After all, Congress generates a LOT of hot air ...

      Regards,

      dj

  5. What's counter-intuitive about it? by SirGarlon · · Score: 5, Informative

    If you've taken sophomore college physics, it's not counter-intuitive at all that an efficient absorber is also an efficient emitter.

    --
    [Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
    1. Re:What's counter-intuitive about it? by Wraithlyn · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Um, if someone needs the relevant college-level courses to understand this, then by definition it is NOT intuitive.

      What do you think "intuitive" means exactly?

      --
      "Mind, as manifested by the capacity to make choices, is to some extent present in every electron." -Freeman Dyson
    2. Re:What's counter-intuitive about it? by gman003 · · Score: 5, Funny

      What do you think "intuitive" means exactly?

      Intuitive (adj.) - Anything I already know.

    3. Re:What's counter-intuitive about it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Planck's law does not apply to band-gap related emission/absorption.

    4. Re:What's counter-intuitive about it? by Eponymous+Hero · · Score: 5, Insightful

      as a slashdotter, the rest of us slashdotters presume that you're a more-than-competent physicist, chemist, biologist, astronomer, economist, engineer, gamer, proofreader, and Dr. Who/BSG/Star Trek/Star Wars/Matrix/LOTR archivist. if you're not, someone who is will pull your card.

      plus, isn't sophomore college physics, like, a facebook app or something by now?

      --
      insensitive clod overlords obligatory xkcd car analogy russian reversals whoosh pedant fanbois ftfy in 3...2...1..PROFIT
    5. Re:What's counter-intuitive about it? by hacksoncode · · Score: 1
      Readily apparent to one's intuition.

      The intuition of a person that has taken (and paid attention to) college-level courses is *of course* more efficient at comprehending things that are the topics of the courses.

      Perhaps you were thinking of common sense?

      The vast majority of people have *crappy* intuitions.

    6. Re:What's counter-intuitive about it? by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Well, it should be obvious to even the most dim-witted individual who holds an advanced degree in hyperbolic topology, ng-bwui, that Homer Simpson has stumbled into....the third dimension.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    7. Re:What's counter-intuitive about it? by robot256 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The vast majority of people also have crappy common sense. Saying something is intuitive without stating what background is required for it to be intuitive is just a dick move trying to make everyone else look stupid for not knowing everything you know. I learned a long time ago that things I think are obvious are frequently not to other people.

      Of course, some of those things include not posing for photos on railroad tracks and making your kids ride with their seat belts buckled. The "bowling ball and a feather falling in a vacuum" question decidedly takes the back seat compared to the lack of intuition some people exhibit.

    8. Re:What's counter-intuitive about it? by Wraithlyn · · Score: 3, Informative

      Nice circular definition? "Something is intuitive if it's intuitive to me"?

      Intuition is direct, a priori, instinctive comprehension of a concept, NOT relying on experience, and "without inference or the use of reason".

      It is counter-intuitive that a solar cell "throwing away" light will result in higher energy output.

      If you have facts/knowledge/education on your side that counter this "layman's expectation", you're no longer relying on intuition.

      Claiming you develop a better "personal intuition" as a result of education/experience/whatever is simply an incorrect use of the word.

      --
      "Mind, as manifested by the capacity to make choices, is to some extent present in every electron." -Freeman Dyson
    9. Re:What's counter-intuitive about it? by Khyber · · Score: 1

      You don't need college courses.

      Newton's third law of motion, which anyone should have learned in MIDDLE SCHOOL, is enough to understand this. For any action, there is an equal, and opposite reaction. Light absorbed, light emitted. Dead fucking simple.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    10. Re:What's counter-intuitive about it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've got to post anon because I've been moderating. You've got that dead wrong. The preconceived notion that people have is that there's light absorbed, because the electromagnetic energy is converted to heat or electrical energy. Light absorbed =/> light emitted. Not at all.

    11. Re:What's counter-intuitive about it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Question: does an emitter radiate or does a radiator emit?

    12. Re:What's counter-intuitive about it? by Khyber · · Score: 1

      You need to stop moderating if you can't read and think critically. There is nothing wrong with what I've stated. This is entirely a classical issue we're discussing, sonny.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    13. Re:What's counter-intuitive about it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yep. Have you ever seen a fat person take a dump?

    14. Re:What's counter-intuitive about it? by eugene+ts+wong · · Score: 1

      "intuitive" is explained in Physic 301.

    15. Re:What's counter-intuitive about it? by voidphoenix · · Score: 3, Insightful

      in.tu.i.tion/,int(y)oo'iSHun/
      Noun:
      (1) The ability to understand something immediately, without the need for conscious reasoning.
      (2) A thing that one knows or considers likely from instinctive feeling rather than conscious reasoning.
      Synonyms: insight - instinct

      Note there is nothing in the definition about laypersons, or a priori comprehension. Intuition is defined by the absence of conscious reasoning, not by the absence of all reasoning. A large portion of our processing is unconscious, below the surface cognition we normally consider "thinking". The brain is massively parallel and is constantly processing a vast amount of data. Some of this we are aware of, the conscious portion. Other portions only come to the surface in the form of dreams. But most of it we never really see.

      Your education and experience are part of this processing, and the more "education/experience/whatever" you have on a particular subject matter, the better your intuition is on that subject matter. This is not voodoo, it simply means the processing has been integrated into the deeper regions and we no longer have to actively or consciously think about it. To the conscious mind, it's like we "just know it".

      As an example, a beginning driver, especially on a stick shift, will be thinking about details like gas pedal, brake pedal and clutch pedal timing, which gear to shift to, when to shift to neutral, and on top of all that, steering and navigating. An experienced driver doesn't need to consciously plot the gas off, clutch down, shift, etc... steps, they basically happen automatically. Some will argue it's muscle memory, but it's more than just the movements. The timing of all that, of what to do and when to do it, requires being able to integrate multiple data streams.

      Another example, diagnosing computer problems. I've been fiddling around with computers for decades, and basically, family and friends come to me when their computers "don't work". Many times, they'll be describing (in non-tech terms) the problem and I'll "just know" what's wrong when they're barely done with the second sentence. I don't think "a priori" is correct, at all. If I I didn't have the education/experience/whatever, I simply would not be able to figure that stuff out. But because I do, I can, often intuitively, meaning, I don't have to consciously think about it. The character Dr. Gregory House, from the House, MD TV series, also displays this. His expertise is broad and deep, and so he can intuitively figure out obscure medical problems.

      The brain is a constantly self-adjusting neural network, sort of like an FPGA, and although they aren't exact analogies, one can think of education as data/software. Early on, you're thinking about it and solving problems in software. But given time and practice, the software in the brain migrates into the hardware, kind of like programming an FPGA. Once it's coded in the FPGA, it can mostly avoid using the stack and registers (your conscious mind) and you "just know" the answers/solutions/whatever. And yes, intuition is very personal. What is intuitive to me will not necessarily be intuitive to you, and vice versa. We have differently-programmed FPGAs.

    16. Re:What's counter-intuitive about it? by Raved+Thrad · · Score: 1

      For any action, there is an equal, and opposite reaction.

      Not on Slashdot, where the rule seems to be "for any action, there is an appropriate and immediate criticism." You post something, someone posts a comment, and the mods have a field day looking for trolls to burn.

      --
      Life, ultimately, boils down to the Four Fs: Fighting, Fleeing, Feeding, and Mating.
    17. Re:What's counter-intuitive about it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What do you think "intuitive" means exactly?

      "Does not encompass quantum entanglement, general relativity or fluid dynamics".

      Out of those, fluid dynamics is by far the most fucked up.

    18. Re:What's counter-intuitive about it? by The+Grim+Reefer · · Score: 2

      as a slashdotter, the rest of us slashdotters presume that you're a more-than-competent physicist, chemist, biologist, astronomer, economist, engineer, gamer, proofreader, and Dr. Who/BSG/Star Trek/Star Wars/Matrix/LOTR archivist. if you're not, someone who is will pull your card.

      What, no B5 or Firefly? Please turn in your geek card. ;-)

    19. Re:What's counter-intuitive about it? by VendingMenace · · Score: 1

      This is so wrong, it isn't even funny. For instance, Red Dye #40 is a great absorber of light, but has a quantum yield of emission of near zero (unless you think your red Kool Aid is fluorescent). Also, plants do a great job of absorbing light, but they aren't very good emitters, either.

      This is the sort of thing that happens when someone sees one equation written in a textbook and then assumes that it actually describes the real world.

    20. Re:What's counter-intuitive about it? by AkkarAnadyr · · Score: 1

      The "bowling ball and a feather falling in a vacuum" question decidedly takes the back seat compared to the lack of intuition some people exhibit.

      Indeed. I once heard of a science exhibit which was showing multiple shadows cast by colored lights, with the shadows being different colors (the classic color combination demo, like this).

      People were asked about their comprehension after going through the exhibit. The interviewers were puzzled at first at the fuzzy responses about the shadows' colors. They eventually figured out that many people don't have a basic understanding of how shadows come about .

      That there's some lack of intuition for ya.

      --

      I bought this house and you know I'm boss
      Ain't no h'aint gonna run me off

    21. Re:What's counter-intuitive about it? by Wraithlyn · · Score: 1

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intuition_(philosophy)

      Very first sentence of article:

      "Intuition is a priori knowledge or experiential belief characterized by its immediacy."

      OK, so let's agree that both a priori and experience play a part. But the whole point is the meaning of the term "counter-intuitive" for the title of this article! That is why I said "layman's expectation".

      In short, if you insist on defining "intuition" by experience, the term "counter-intuitive" is meaningless.

      It's like protesting that 6'2" isn't "tall", because you're 6'4" (that your personal reference frame overrides the general usage of the word).

      --
      "Mind, as manifested by the capacity to make choices, is to some extent present in every electron." -Freeman Dyson
    22. Re:What's counter-intuitive about it? by voidphoenix · · Score: 1

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intuition_(philosophy)

      Nice, using a definition from a specialized field to create ambiguity in the definition.

      Very first sentence of article:

      "Intuition is a priori knowledge or experiential belief characterized by its immediacy."

      If you read the following paragraphs, you'll discover that intuition in philosophy relates to beliefs. While it's a related concept, it doesn't help much with the concept of "counter-intuituive". That article also explains that there are two competing schools of thought, and that one of them directly supports my point of view: Intuitions are a species of belief, and based ultimately in experience.

      OK, so let's agree that both a priori and experience play a part.

      No, a priori has pretty much nothing to do with it, and I explained why. In fact, it can be argued that there's no such thing as a priori knowledge, and the only thing we are born with is the ability to process information.

      But the whole point is the meaning of the term "counter-intuitive" for the title of this article! That is why I said "layman's expectation".

      In short, if you insist on defining "intuition" by experience, the term "counter-intuitive" is meaningless.

      So non-laymen have no intuitions? Everybody's different, pretty much from our genetics to the entirety of our experience. Just as there's no actual "average" person, average being a statistical construct, there's also no such actual "layman", especially if one considers the incredibly broad range of cultural and technological exposure that exists among the 7 billion people on the planet. My father finds Nokia dumbphones difficult to use -- in your words, "counter-intuitive". He finds the old Ericsson phones "intuitive". My perception is the exact opposite -- Nokia's UI behaves as I expect it. It's "intuitive". I find Ericsson's UI clunky and inefficient, involving plenty of trial-and-error. "Counter-intuitive". You think that's not because of experience? You think I'd have found Nokias just as intuitive when I was 2?

      It's like protesting that 6'2" isn't "tall", because you're 6'4" (that your personal reference frame overrides the general usage of the word).

      "Tall" isn't an absolute measure. A tall person is short compared to a giraffe, and the giraffe is short compared to a skyscraper. That is about as relative as one can get. Besides, what does "tall" have to do with "intuitive" and "counter-intuitive"?

      Sadly, this discussion isn't going anywhere, because based on your post, you didn't really read my reply or try to understand what I said, you simply reacted to the fact that I was disagreeing with you, grabbed the first Wikipedia link that even remotely looked like it helped your argument (again without reading it thoroughly), and fired off a response, one that didn't actually refute my points.

    23. Re:What's counter-intuitive about it? by Wraithlyn · · Score: 1

      That article also explains that there are two competing schools of thought, and that one of them directly supports my point of view

      I did read the article, and I did acknowledge that there are two schools of thought: "both a priori and experience play a part"... that would be the two schools of thought the article describes? In other words, I conceded your point that subconscious reasoning (ie, informed by experience) can play a part.

      So seriously, piss off with your "you're not even reading or responding to my points" ad hominems. Just because I employ brevity and attempt to keep the discussion focused on the actual point at hand (whether "counter-intuitive" is appropriate in the summary of this specific article), instead of belting out a wall of text does not mean I am not responding to your points.

      Let me ask you a question, what phrase should the author should've used instead of "counter-intuitive" to get his intended meaning across?

      Context matters. The audience matters. The phrase "counter-intuitive" here means "contrary to the expectations of the average reader of this article" (and YES, I read your point that there is really no such thing as "average". Semantic quibbling that obstructs the general conversational usage of common words seems to be a hobby of yours).

      In fact, forget "intuition", here are some definitions of "counterintuitive" (and yes, I am deliberately avoiding definitions that ONLY say "contrary to intuition", because that's just a trivial re-arranging of "counter intuitive" and not very helpful):

      • "contrary to intuition or to common-sense expectation."
      • "seemingly contrary to common sense"
      • "Contrary to what intuition or common sense would indicate"
      • "contrary to what common sense would suggest"

      Common sense:

      • "sound practical judgment that is independent of specialized knowledge, training, or the like; normal native intelligence."
      • "Sound judgment not based on specialized knowledge; native good judgment."
      • "sound and prudent judgment based on a simple perception of the situation or facts"
      • "the basic level of practical knowledge and judgment that we all need to help us live in a reasonable and safe way"

      Note how all of these specifically exclude specialized or advanced knowledge.

      "Counter-intuitive" is a perfectly valid adjective in the article summary for its intended audience. The fact that a minority of readers may have specialized or advanced knowledge that counteracts what everyone else lacking that specialized or advanced knowledge would naturally expect does not change that.

      --
      "Mind, as manifested by the capacity to make choices, is to some extent present in every electron." -Freeman Dyson
    24. Re:What's counter-intuitive about it? by voidphoenix · · Score: 1
      There's no point to this if you keep shifting the goal-posts.

      Um, if someone needs the relevant college-level courses to understand this, then by definition it is NOT intuitive.

      Intuition is direct, a priori, instinctive comprehension of a concept, NOT relying on experience, and "without inference or the use of reason".

      If you have facts/knowledge/education on your side that counter this "layman's expectation", you're no longer relying on intuition.

      Claiming you develop a better "personal intuition" as a result of education/experience/whatever is simply an incorrect use of the word.

      I answered all those points. Your response was to pull out a philosophy definition. Maybe you don't realize this, but the philosophers who came up with those schools of thought did not have the benefit of modern neurology and cognitive science to inform their hypotheses. Despite it being essentially off the path, I still responded to that point. Now you come up with yet another redefinition, common sense. I'm not following you down that road. Funny that, since you claim you

      attempt to keep the discussion focused on the actual point at hand

      The "point at hand" is your statement:

      Um, if someone needs the relevant college-level courses to understand this, then by definition it is NOT intuitive.

      I refuted that statement by quoting a formal definition of intuition, provided by Google, and I explained why your statement was incorrect. I don't care about the article or the post you initially responded to, and that should have been pretty obvious because at no point before this did I even refer to either. The only thing I was discussing is your implication, and later, outright statement, that education and experience have nothing to do with intuition, by definition.

      You seem to want to believe that this magical thing you refer to as intuition, common sense or a priori knowledge just is and everybody has it. The fact of the matter is, it isn't, and we don't. We are born with no _knowledge_, no data whatsoever. (Ok, not entirely true, we start taking in and processing data in the womb.) All we are born (or conceived) with is wiring that is predisposed to process input in certain ways. The rest is data. Experience. Education (whether formal or informal). Even "simple perceptions", like the ability to see, must be learned, and if you don't use your eyes in your first six months or so, you're likely never going to see properly, if at all.

      If you want to cling to your definitions, so be it. I think you diminish yourself with those beliefs, but that is your choice.

    25. Re:What's counter-intuitive about it? by Wraithlyn · · Score: 1

      Good grief.

      Summary of discussion:

      1) This is an incorrect usage of 'counter-intuitive'
      2) No it's not, because this is what "intuitive" means: ...
      3) No, "intuitive" can include experience.
      4) OK, I still think "a priori" is a valid school of thought (here's why: ...), but I concede your point about experience & subconscious reasoning. However, "counter-intuitive" STILL is perfectly fine here. Here's why: ...
      5) YOU'RE CHANGING THE GOAL POSTS!1!

      The "goal post" is, and always has been, defending "counter-intuitive" as a valid word choice in the summary. My original argument (relying solely on a definition of "intuitive") was off-base and narrowly defined, which you corrected. I have conceded that, THREE TIMES NOW. It does not invalidate the original point, which still stands.

      Here, I will trivially amend my original reply:

      "Um, if someone needs the relevant college-level courses to understand this, then by definition it IS counter-intuitive."

      If calling that "shifting the goal posts" makes you feel better, go right ahead.

      The only thing I was discussing is your implication, and later, outright statement, that education and experience have nothing to do with intuition, by definition.

      Then why the hell are we still talking? I admitted the validity of your position, that experience DOES inform intuition (in a certain school of thought at least), in my very first response to you.

      YOU ARE RIGHT. I WAS WRONG TO SUGGEST THAT EXPERIENCE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH "INTUITION". SO VERY VERY WRONG. DID I MENTION HOW RIGHT YOU ARE? Not sure how many more times I can keep repeating this...

      --
      "Mind, as manifested by the capacity to make choices, is to some extent present in every electron." -Freeman Dyson
  6. Well, kind of by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    Ideally, you would want all of your electron-hole pairs to never recombine (which would keep them from emitting photons). Since that's obviously not possible, this would be the best possible outcome of internal recombination.

    1. Re:Well, kind of by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This begs the question, "What types of molecular configurations increase the speed and chance of head on collisions?".

    2. Re:Well, kind of by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly. This whole "it lets the light out" is hype. Basically an ideal solar cell has no mid gap defect states that allow the electron-hole pairs to recombine. If you have any, then e-h will recombine and possibly emit a photon, possibly just phonon. There are lots of non-radiative recombination pathways. So, they've figured out how to make a near-zero mid gap state, so any e-h that recombine are immediately re-emitted at the same wavelength.

  7. Photosynthesis by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is this why plants fluoresce in near infrared?

    1. Re:Photosynthesis by Khyber · · Score: 3, Informative

      No, they fluoresce in near-UV (unless you're watching with an IR scope when using 680-700nm light.) Light conversion always works DOWN from higher energy potential to lower energy potential when there's no amplifier or booster present. We can take one blue photon and emit 7 or 8 red photons, roughly. This is why plants have this odd purple/red glow with certain near-uv wavelengths. They absorb blue, emit yellow/red photons as a result.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    2. Re:Photosynthesis by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      naw thats cause they valence level is angry

    3. Re:Photosynthesis by voidphoenix · · Score: 1

      Is this why plants fluoresce in near infrared?

      Ok, I think we read that differently. I read him to mean "plants emit near-infrared wavelengths" and you apparently read him to mean "plants emit when exposed to near-infrared wavelengths". I would have understood him the way you did if he said "plants flouresce under near-infrared". Anyway, if he meant what I think he meant, then you're both correct. :)

  8. The bigger problem by cirby · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Sure, it would be nice to have much more efficient solar cells, but there's another issue keeping costs up.

    It's the home infrastructure.

    Right now, it costs more to install the solar cells on a roof than it does to make them, and once you add in the cabling and battery/storage system for balancing the load or for nighttime use, the actual power generating part of the system is much less than half of the whole system cost. Increasing efficiency is great, and will let you cut the overall size of the system for a similar capacity, but the big issue is making a solar system that's easy to install, with cheap storage, for a lot less.

    Cheap batteries and inexpensive support systems are the things we need now...

    1. Re:The bigger problem by cpu6502 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Make the solar cells part of modular homes where the roof and panel are built as one in a mass-production factory.

      --
      My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
    2. Re:The bigger problem by Chuckstar · · Score: 2

      You only need cheap batteries if you are trying to be off grid (or your utility doesn't do net metering). Otherwise, let the grid be your battery.

    3. Re:The bigger problem by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      You only need cheap batteries if you are trying to be off grid (or your utility doesn't do net metering). Otherwise, let the grid be your battery.

      I just spoke to the Grid and he says, "Fuck you, pay me. I'm in the business of charging you for electricity, not storing your excess. What are you, some kind of German commie?"

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    4. Re:The bigger problem by operagost · · Score: 1

      Because the grid never goes down. When the power goes out, so does your grid-tied system.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    5. Re:The bigger problem by Chuckstar · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I disagree. The grid is in the business of transferring electricity around. The grid doesn't care if it's electricity generated at a plant and sent to your home, or generated at your home and transferred to your neighbors home. And of course you'll pay to be attached to the grid, but that could take many forms, almost any manner of which would be cheaper than buying a bank of batteries.

    6. Re:The bigger problem by Chuckstar · · Score: 1

      As I said "you only need cheap batteries if you are trying to be off grid".

      As far as whether batteries are necessary for spurring a broader solar market, it is a small minority of people who would be buying solar panels to avoid power outages. If solar panel costs were finally low enough that you could install a (battery-free) system that would provide signficant net savings over its life, you wouldn't hear a lot of people saying "but if I still lose power when the grid is out, why should I bother".

    7. Re:The bigger problem by ArhcAngel · · Score: 3, Informative

      You still have to convert the energy from DC to AC so your DC appliances with AC2DC converters can plug into the wall. Damn you Tesla!

      --
      "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." - K
    8. Re:The bigger problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I just spoke to the Grid and he says, "Fuck you, pay me. I'm in the business of charging you for electricity, not storing your excess. What are you, some kind of German commie?"

      And a lot of local public utility commissions tell the Grid: "You're a regulated monopoly; you do as we say. Now pay the customer for his extra solar electricity. Full retail price."

    9. Re:The bigger problem by JamesP · · Score: 1

      Well, cost of the support system is something that ends up getting cheaper with scale and technology improvements

      And maybe you don't need a battery, or need only a small one.

      The key here is efficiency, or better summed up by "bang for the buck".

      Energy during the night is cheap, so it makes sense to use from the grid.

      --
      how long until /. fixes commenting on Chrome?
    10. Re:The bigger problem by Jeremi · · Score: 1

      Because the grid never goes down.

      Around here, at least, that is more or less true. We get maybe one power outage a year, and it usually lasts for about two seconds until a backup kicks in somewhere.

      When the power goes out, so does your grid-tied system.

      That's true, but it's not really a problem for most people. Grid-tied systems aren't meant to improve reliability, they are meant to reduce costs and/or emissions.

      On the other hand, if reliability is your concern and you're willing to pay extra, buy some batteries for backup.

      --


      I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
    11. Re:The bigger problem by robot256 · · Score: 1

      I looked into this recently, and it is actually pretty close to the break-even point in my area. The cost to install a grid-tie system would be totally paid off by about 15 years of energy savings, assuming the rates don't up drastically, and the panels would have another 5-10 years of life left. It isn't dramatic enough that people are going out and getting solar panels to make a quick buck, but it's enough that people who want to do the right thing aren't penalized in the long run.

    12. Re:The bigger problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I recall wind-power exerting more force on those kinda of homes...

    13. Re:The bigger problem by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      The grid is in the business of transferring electricity around.

      The grid is in the business of whatever the corporate entity that owns it says it is. And if you should come up with a way to generate energy without it, you will find out just how fast the Grid can be weaponized.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    14. Re:The bigger problem by Khyber · · Score: 2

      No you don't.

      I've got plenty of 12V native devices. Stereos, monitors, rack servers, guitar amps, and much, much more.

      I would only need a battery bank and perhaps some power-smoothing circuitry.

      And FYI, these devices have existed for almost longer than my three decades of life.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    15. Re:The bigger problem by ArhcAngel · · Score: 1

      WOW!

      Even with the "Damn you Tesla!" hint that it was a lighthearted joke you managed a major league WHOOOOSH

      I don't know of any electronic device that isn't DC based. Most, however, are designed to accommodate the AC delivery system we've used for the last century.

      BTW...Is your house wired for DC or would you need to run all new outlets for the 12V native devices? If, I suspect, it's the latter which is easier, converting DC to AC and running through the existing wiring in the house or running a separate line to every place in the house an outlet is already located? Because both are going to be equally expensive but one will be substantially more invasive and time consuming.

      Don't get me wrong...I'm an advocate for DC in the home I'm just realistic when looking at existing infrastructure.

      --
      "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." - K
    16. Re:The bigger problem by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 2

      And most people do not consider the fact that a saved dollar is tax free while an earned dollar is taxed at 14 to 28%.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    17. Re:The bigger problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      In principle, yes. The grid is just in the business of transferring electricity around, and shouldn't care where that electricity is coming from.

      In practice, it doesn't really work that way.

      The grid is not a network in the same sense as the Internet. You can't take electricity from one end-point, and route it through the network to other end points. It was built around the idea that you're generating power in large power plants, transmitting that power along the main transmission network, and then dumping it into a distribution network, where it's progressively stepped down in voltage, until it hits your home. It's designed to be mostly one way: power flows from the power plant to your toaster.

      You can shove power back into the grid from your home. However, the grid wasn't really designed for this. If you put too much power back into the grid, you could cause some serious damage to the grid equipment (blowing out a transformer, for example). The power can certainly be used by other people close to you in the distribution network, but there's no mechanism to transport that power back up to the transmission network (the distribution network would just be taking less power from the transmission network, rather than sending it back). Even then, energy generally isn't stored anywhere. There are facilities that do store power (sometimes - they're more common in some parts of the world than others), which are used to manage demand surges, but there's no mechanism to get the power from your panels to the storage facility.

      You aren't storing power in the grid. You're shifting the demand around instead.

      It's quite possible to redesign or augment the grid, so it can handle distributed power generation rather than centralized power generation. It's just bloody expensive and, to the best of my knowledge, nobody's actually done it yet. Remember that the grid we have was built up over something like a century, and it's only very recently that distributed power generation has become viable.

    18. Re:The bigger problem by Khyber · · Score: 1

      Wires are wires are wires if you're pushing enough power through them. 12V @ roughly 200A is not going to lose too much over a few dozen feet. You just drop the circuit breaker onto a DC storage supply, and hook charging panels + charge controller to the power supply.

      I did it with warehouses in Memphis (822 Rozelle) houses are much simpler of a matter.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    19. Re:The bigger problem by wagnerrp · · Score: 1

      Most electric motors are AC based.

    20. Re:The bigger problem by SydShamino · · Score: 2

      Obviously this includes government rebates, but while talking about personal out-of-pocket costs I saw a vendor in Austin, TX selling a 6kW system, installed, for $19.5k. After city of Austin $14,475 rebates (paid directly to the vendor; never out of your pocket), and $1508 federal tax credit (out of your pocket unless you pay quarterly or adjust your W4), the cost for the system was just $3,517. $3,517 is crazy good for a 6kW system, which in Texas supposedly generates about 8400 kW-h of electricity a year. At 10.5 cents per kW-h (a low rate than I pay now), that nets $882 in savings each year.

      That's breakeven in less than four years. The remaining 21 years or so of system life are profit.

      --
      It doesn't hurt to be nice.
    21. Re:The bigger problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      While I dont dispute that wires are in fact wires, to be a little more technical about it, the amount of voltage drop along a wire depends on how much current travels through it. To get the same amount of power with a 12V power supply you would need about 10X thicker wire than with 120V. This is exactly why powerlines run at high voltage; you can send a lot of power in relatively thin cables. Existing home wiring is generally rated around 30A so that means at 12V you could only get about 360W of power out of each household circuit. This is probably fine for all your electronic devices, but wouldn't be enough for a space heater, toaster, oven, clothes dryer, or any other power hungry device.

    22. Re:The bigger problem by Neil+Boekend · · Score: 1

      Pushing 200A through default 2,5mm^2 wires would pose a firehazard (2,5 mm^2 is default in the Netherlands. This is about AWG 16) these wires are rated for 16A over long periods of time. Pushing more than 10 times that power through is a bad idea.
      It has a resistance of 13 mOhm/m. A few dozen feet is about 10 meters, so the resistance is 13*10*2 (two wires) = 260mOhm. At a current of 200 A the voltage drop = 52V. This means you couldn't push those 200 A into the cable with a 12V supply if you'd short circuit the end, let alone power a device with it.
      With 12V you are going to be able to push 46A into it, max (short circuit). At that current you'd dissipate (46^2)*0.26=550W, in a tube in the wall. That could set your house on fire.

      --
      Well, I might have a way, but it only works on a semi spherical planet in a vacuum.
    23. Re:The bigger problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      sheesh that unmaintained be grumpy

    24. Re:The bigger problem by Issarlk · · Score: 1

      Sounds like communism to me: Your neighbor's tax money used to pay for your solar panels. How can this even exist in Texas?

    25. Re:The bigger problem by Khyber · · Score: 1

      My above-mentioned warehouse in Memphis used AWG12, which you'll commonly find in many homes here in the USA. It was also built in the 1930s.

      Handles 12V just fine up to 400A.

      Also, you can use PWM to bypass some of the resistive and capacitive losses, giving the power signal an AC-like effect, which is what we do in our LED lighting for horticulture, down long (4-10 meters) of NFT channel.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    26. Re:The bigger problem by Kjella · · Score: 1

      Assuming that it operates 25 years without a glitch, that it's never damaged in a storm, that it never requires an electrician, that no kids find it fun to throw rocks at your roof or whatever. Sounds like you're more than breaking even but I'd budget something for maintenance, nothing ever seems to be quite as zero maintenance as promised.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    27. Re:The bigger problem by Neil+Boekend · · Score: 1

      AWG 12 is less than our 4mm^2. 4mm^2 is rated for 32A where I am from. The voltage doesn't matter, the current screws you over.
      Same calc, with 5.211 mOhm/m gives me a bit over 0.1 Ohms and thus about 20V of drop @ 200A. It's closer, but it's still impossible to push 200A through 2x10 meters of AWG12 cable with 12V of supply.
      You could get 12V at the end by pushing 32V in at the beginning, but the cables will get hot. With 4KW of dissipation you'd be burning the house down. Standard insulation will melt. At the 400A you claim the copper'll melt.

      --
      Well, I might have a way, but it only works on a semi spherical planet in a vacuum.
    28. Re:The bigger problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have some insight in this. I was recently talking about net-metering and found out that Minnesota requires all electric utilities to allow it. Doesn't mean that they have to be nice about it. The rural co-op in the area forces a second meter to be installed on the generating device (solar panels; wind tower; what-have-you) at no charge to the customer. They then monitor the consumption separate from the generation. They pay 5.5 cents per kwh and charge 10 cents per kwh. If you are not using your own generated electricity as much as possible, including some sort of onsite storage system, you will ALWAYS come out behind.

    29. Re:The bigger problem by Epi-man · · Score: 1

      My solar installation doesn't have any batteries. I use micro-inverters instead of a bulk inverter and am still connected to the grid. So, during the day (when the ACs or dryer aren't running) I push power back and help run my neighbors' houses, at night, I pull from the grid to run the house. This way I don't have to replace batteries every 5-7 years and if some panels get shaded/have a problem, they don't pull down the entire array.

    30. Re:The bigger problem by ArhcAngel · · Score: 1

      Most electric motors are AC based.

      Yes...they are. So are incandescent bulbs as well as a host of other home staples. Which is why you would need dual wiring for Khyber's utopia. Unless you are going to go out and swap out the breaker anytime your family decides they want to plug in a lamp where the laptop currently is. Or just replace all your bulbs with LED's and all your electric motors with Stepper motors.

      Electric != electronic

      --
      "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." - K
    31. Re:The bigger problem by taiwanjohn · · Score: 1

      I recently heard of an idea to put a small inverter circuit in (under) each individual PV cell. This was a side point in a lecture on a different topic, so they didn't explain the details, but the idea was that this would simplify the equipment needs downstream from the array. Also, they claimed that this made each panel more resilient because damage to one cell would not affect the entire panel. Sorry I can't recall the citation, I've been watching a bunch of this stuff on YouTube lately and don't remember who said it (might have been one of the Stanford lectures).

      Anyway, to your "bigger problem" point, there's a lot of work being done on every facet of the solar market, from new technology to new business models. More venture capital is going into renewables than "traditional" energy methods, and this trend is increasing. You're right that PV cells now cost less than all the other stuff in a residential solar installation, but this is a good thing, it's a sing of progress. And it's a huge market opportunity for the next guy who comes along and figures out how to do all that "other" stuff cheaper than the competition.

      I more or less agree with you that we're not quite there yet, but we're well on the way, and making good progress.

      --
      XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve your problem, you're not using enough of it. --AC
    32. Re:The bigger problem by yurtinus · · Score: 1

      Boys and girls, please don't drive 400 amps through twelve gauge wire in your homes - at least not if you value your homes (or your lives)...

      My co-responder Neil here laid out the technical reasons why it's a Bad Idea (tm). To summarize his explanation: the wire will get hot. Very hot. It will melt its insulation and catch your framework on fire before the copper melts itself.

      --
      +1 Disagree
    33. Re:The bigger problem by yurtinus · · Score: 1

      You know what... I take this back. What was I thinking. If you're using a 12v source you might not burn down your house. You won't have much power to work with on the far end of your line (a few amps, 4 or 5 perhaps) which might give you enough power to run your laptop. Of course, you could get 200 amps through a 10 meter 12 gauge wire by grounding it on the far side... but then you would burn your house down.

      --
      +1 Disagree
    34. Re:The bigger problem by yurtinus · · Score: 1

      Your neighbor is also paying for your roads, your sewers, your national defense, your medical care, your social security, your fire department... and on and on and on. I'm not saying I agree with the subsidies (I'm actually quite against them) but have a bit of perspective here.

      --
      +1 Disagree
    35. Re:The bigger problem by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      incandescent bulbs don't care if it is AC or DC, both will work. The motor comment however is correct.

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
    36. Re:The bigger problem by robot256 · · Score: 1

      When you install solar panels on your home, that reduces the peak load on the grid, which in turn reduces the chance that your neighbor will experience brown-outs, black-outs or rate hikes to add capacity. So it's not entirely crazy for them to subsidize your solar panels. Communism generally sounds terrible until you realize that we don't all live on individual planets.

    37. Re:The bigger problem by robot256 · · Score: 1

      Some of the leasing companies cover all the installation and maintenance costs and then charge you either monthly or per kilowatt-hour, and the rates guarantee some (albeit smaller) guaranteed savings over utility costs.

    38. Re:The bigger problem by SydShamino · · Score: 1

      Once it's on your home, your insurance covers it in the event of damage. The anecdotal reports I've seen indicate that solar panels are more durable than asphalt shingles when it comes to hail, so it's possible that installing a solar system will reduce your home insurance claims as well. Hence, you may not be paying for the cost of this coverage in the form of higher rates.

      The inverter needs to be replaced every 10 years or so if you buy a whole-house one, but new DC panels have an inverter on the back of each panel and are warranted for 25 years (same as the panel). So again, there's no need to pay for this if something breaks.

      --
      It doesn't hurt to be nice.
    39. Re:The bigger problem by SydShamino · · Score: 1

      THanks. Sums it up nicely. Keep in mind though that Austin Energy is rapidly building green energy sources (and other energy sources, too) to meet a growing demand.

      It costs Austin $14k to subsidize 6kW of summertime peak energy generation on my roof, which I'll provide to the grid at baseline rates (or reduce my own demand at peak rates). Suppose it costs Austin more than $14k to build, transport, and maintain 6kW of summertime peak energy generation in a field in west Texas. If so, then this isn't really a subsidy, is it, it's a smart investment since I'm stuck paying for maintenance (if any) and risk (if any)?

      --
      It doesn't hurt to be nice.
  9. It stands to reason then ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    that the emitted photons could then be absorbed and converted to electricity by other light emitting solar cells?

  10. Logan's Run by eggfoolr · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Who else immediately thought of the solar powered car in the Logan's Run TV series? I could never understand why the solar collector glowed... now I know!

    1. Re:Logan's Run by cpu6502 · · Score: 4, Funny

      There was a car?
      I was too busy watching Jenny Agutter: http://i2.listal.com/image/343660/600full-jenny-agutter.jpg I ought to download and read the Logan's Run book sometime.

      --
      My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
    2. Re:Logan's Run by kimvette · · Score: 3, Informative

      She was not in the TV series.

      --
      The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
    3. Re:Logan's Run by lordmetroid · · Score: 1

      The only thing I can concentrate on in this image is that there is a freaking rabbit on the left.

    4. Re:Logan's Run by GuldKalle · · Score: 1

      That doesn't mean he wasn't busy looking at her.

      --
      What?
    5. Re:Logan's Run by randy+of+the+redwood · · Score: 1

      Thanks for ruining it for the rest of us. It was quite pleasant, and now that's ALL I can see also.

      --
      The sun is the same in a relative way, but you are shorter of breath and one day closer to death
    6. Re:Logan's Run by R3d+M3rcury · · Score: 2

      In the TV Series, Jessica was played by Heather Menzies. Nice to look at also, in a 1970s kind of way.

    7. Re:Logan's Run by waltlaw · · Score: 1

      I thought of Heinlein's "Let There Be Light."

    8. Re:Logan's Run by Livius · · Score: 1

      It's funny with the *vast* number of science fiction movies and TV shows that show alien/futuristic technology with strange lights to think that they might have had it right all along.

    9. Re:Logan's Run by kimvette · · Score: 1

      That is understandable. XFD

      --
      The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
  11. Yo Dawg! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We heard you like light...

  12. Hmph... by PopeRatzo · · Score: 3, Funny

    Why are these scientists wasting their time with so-called "solar cells"? Everyone knows solar energy can't possibly work. There's just not enough energy in the sun for it to be useful to us.

    Fossil fuels are the result of plant life after millions of years, so they're the real "green" technology. And the sun had absolutely nothing to do with them.

    These scientists, who are probably mostly foreign, want to strip us of our birthright: a personal vehicle that weight 6000 lbs. Hell, my wife, Lovey, has a couple of Escalades and she recycles all the plastic wrap that our food comes in. So who's really the "green" one?

    --
    You are welcome on my lawn.
    1. Re:Hmph... by busyqth · · Score: 1

      What kind of food comes in plastic wrap?
      All the good stuff comes in cans, well except for dinners. They come in a little tray you can stick in the microwave.

    2. Re:Hmph... by Intrepid+imaginaut · · Score: 1

      Look up desertec. Its good stuff.

    3. Re:Hmph... by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      Look up desertec. Its good stuff.

      Very good stuff.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
  13. No joke by Memophage · · Score: 5, Funny

    Guess I can't tell that joke about a solar-powered flashlight anymore.

    1. Re:No joke by silentcoder · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That joke stopped being funny years ago - solar powered LED flashlights are on the market - I own one.

      Sound useless ? It's not. It has a battery - during daytime it charges the battery from solar power, when you use it at night, the battery powers the LED lights.

      It's a wonderfully useful tool on camping trips. As a bonus - since the battery isn't replaced during the lifetime of the device it has much less of a pollution (battery-acid) impact (granted this may be less of a consideration in some countries -mine has no systems in place for proper disposal/recycling of battery cells and people just toss them in the trash when they are used up).

      That LEDs have become so powerful while remaining so efficient has led to us being able to do a lot of really cool things we weren't able to do even quite recently.
      Frankly compared to things like LED based airport runway signal lights a solar powered flashlight isn't even all that impressive :D

      --
      Unicode killed the ASCII-art *
  14. Re:The bigger problem roxy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Haven't you heard? Roof mount solar cells are outdated 2-D tech. The new way is 3-D, made like branches and leaves on a tree. Much more efficient also. Instead of all sorts of equipment and manpower to roof mount, they will soon just send a truck with some "solar trees" and cement them in your backyard and run an extension cord to your house/batteries or to the meter to run it backwards. They look like trees from a distance so they are acceptable in more areas than ugly panels. Drill a hole, and put in the new tree. Quick, inexpensive, and more efficient.

  15. LIght emission is negative absorption [Re:Idea] by Geoffrey.landis · · Score: 2

    Light emission is the converse of light absorption, so any solar cell that absorbs light must, by the same mechanism, emit light, unless other loss mechanisms prevent it. Obviously light emission is a loss mechanism-- light emitted is clearly not turned into electricity. However, all other loss mechanisms can be eliminated by sufficiently clever design, but light emission is a loss required by the laws of thermodynamics. Thus, a solar cell is optimized when there is no other loss mechanism other than light emission, which is to say, when the light emission is maximized.

    (In fact, it is optimized when the light emission back toward the source is maximized; all emission that isn't back toward the source could in principle be retroreflected and reabsorbed. This would be known as "light trapping".)

    --
    http://www.geoffreylandis.com
  16. heinlein was right again! by circusboy · · Score: 1

    some rolling roads, a life detector, and a massive fundamentalist revolution and we should be all set...

    --
    -- it's ridiculous how many people misspell ridiculous... (damn, damn, damn...)
    1. Re:heinlein was right again! by muridae · · Score: 1

      Scudder was elected in 2012, so we may not be that far off.

    2. Re:heinlein was right again! by circusboy · · Score: 1

      hmmm... Nehemiah Scudder == Mitt Romney? oh dear...

      --
      -- it's ridiculous how many people misspell ridiculous... (damn, damn, damn...)
  17. It's Older and More General Than That by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Thermodynamics teaches us that the most efficient cyclical process is one that can be run in reverse the same way it is run forward. The more irreversible the process, the more it strays from equilibrium, the more it runs uncontrolled (all synonyms) the farther it is from being maximally efficient.

  18. 2 more ways to make better solar cells by Taco+Cowboy · · Score: 2
    --
    Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
    1. Re:2 more ways to make better solar cells by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or you could skip the photo-voltaic effect completely:
      http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/11/111110125955.htm

      and/or add a coating that converts uv to visible light so you can harvest that too:
      http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0927024898001056

  19. Direct semiconductors? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Silicon doesn't emit light because it is an indirect semiconductor. Because of that, it is also less efficient at absorbing light. That's why solar cells have to be so thick (several hundreds of microns), otherwise most photons would just go through the cell.

    Direct semiconductors have been used in the past (e.g. GaAs) and they do achieve better efficiency. They are often used in space (they also happen to have wider band-gap, which is better suited to high energy photons, like ultraviolet light). GaAS cells are much thinner (a couple of microns) and lighter as almost all photons with energy above their band-gap are immediately absorbed.

    Low cell thickness is good for efficiency - there is less chance that generated electrons will recombine. They simply have shorter distance to travel between the place they were generated at and an electrode. Also, the difference of the photon energy and the bandgap isn't simply converted into heat but rather another electron and is radiated back. It could be then captured by another narrow band-gap cell sandwiched with the main cell.

    Perhaps they have found more reasons why direct semiconductors are more efficient, but it is not true that we didn't know it before.

  20. The grid today is foolish by bussdriver · · Score: 1

    Public roads, on public land are the essential infrastructure on which our society functions, it dates back long ago. It is done by the people (aka the government.) Everybody puts money in and everybody benefits.

    The electrical grid gets heavy subsidizes and often leverages its monopoly power to corrupt government. The grid should be another public network just like the roads it usually runs next to. City water and sewage is also an old solution we continue. Electricity is now essential and while it is not as important as the traditional grids it is next in line to be made public. We should cast off these crooks who exploit our needs, corrupt our officials, and often poorly manage our power grid. It may cost us the same amount but we have 1 less source of corruption and an open grid to build a larger marketplace around. Private power grids are too cheap to think LONG term while government can build a grid to last longer and run cheaper in the end... such as putting power lines underground near the roads instead of cheaply on poles... higher voltage DC with local DC to AC with plenty of R&D available that no private company can compete with.

    Like the roads, water, sewer grids before it, an open public electrical grid will foster competition built upon it and promote a distributed robust marketplace. Grid power storage services that buy cheap and sell high; small distributed power generation and a FAIR payback to individuals who feed to the grid. Many schemes could be devised on such systems, beyond just subsides for example, consumers could choose to pay more for solar and solar producers then get a higher payback. Power rates could be managed automatically down to the second; fostering a whole market of smart devices to save you money.

    Power generation can remain private; just as cars, trucks are private but run on the public transportation grid. Although, I can't still see nuclear being possible without huge government intervention as has always been the case.