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Court Rules NSA Doesn't Have To Confirm Or Deny Secret Relationship With Google
Sparrowvsrevolution writes "A DC appeals court has ruled that the National Security Agency doesn't need to either confirm or deny its secret relationship with Google in response to a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request and follow-up lawsuit filed by the Electronic Privacy Information Center. The NSA cited a FOIA exemption that covers any documents whose exposure might hinder the NSA's national security mission, and responded to EPIC with a 'no comment.' Beyond merely rejecting the FOIA request, the court has agreed with the NSA that it has the right to simply not respond to the request, as even a rejection of the request might reveal details of a suspected relationship with Google that it has sought to keep secret. Google was reported to have partnered with the NSA to bolster its defenses against hackers after its breach by Chinese cyberspies in early 2010. But to the dismay of privacy advocates who fear the NSA's surveillance measures coupled with Google's trove of data, the company has never explained the details of that partnership."
It's been known for a long time that Google has been secretly working with NSA. You may ask why they do it?
1) It is beneficial to NSA.
NSA gets immersive amount of data from Google that they would not otherwise have. Remember that Google logs every and all search requests made, has Google Analytics scripts on basically every site on the internet, owns YouTube (good place to check what videos interest people), and is now trying to compete with Facebook by building the worlds largest social network (with a strict real names only -policy), Google+.
2) It is beneficial to Google.
In turn, Google has strong government backing for all their privacy violations, snooping and ignorance of other countries laws. They have and are building a strong relationship with the highest people on US government so that they get free pass on everything and no liability.
3) Google has got lots of shit lately.
It aligns with the previous point, but Google has been major target of (valid) lawsuits around the world and U.S. lately. FTC is watching them, KFTC is watching them, European Union is watching them. By strongering their position with someone like NSA they are trying to weasel out of these suits.
4) Google is a marketing company
Imagine if you could build yourself as "the marketing company of the internet". You need to gather lots of data for that. By making some favors towards NSA, their upper personal will of course make some back. After all, they are in the same business - snooping people's data. NSA for their purposes, Google for marketing purposes.
GreatBunzinni, real name Rui Maciel, has been using anonymous posts and sockpuppets to accuse nearly 20 people of being employed by a PR firm to astroturf Slashdot, without any evidence. Using his sockpuppets, he mods up these anonymous posts while modding down the accused in order to filter their viewpoints. GreatBunzinni accidentally outed himself as the anonymous troll who has been posting these accusations to every Slashdot story. For example, he wrote the same post almost verbatim, first using his logged-in account followed by an anonymous post days later. Note the use of the same script and wording.
It turns out GreatBunzinni is actually a 31-year-old C++/Java programmer from Almada, Portugal named Rui Maciel, with a civil engineering degree from Instituto Superior Técnico and a hobby working with electronics. He runs Kubuntu and is active on the KDE mailing list. Rui Maciel has accounts at OSNews, Launchpad, ProgrammersHeaven, the Ubuntu forums, and of course Slashdot.
Most of the users who Rui targets have done nothing else but criticize Google for something or praise a competitor. Many of them are subscribers who get the first post because subscribers see stories earlier than non-subscribers. After one of Rui's accusations gets posted, the original post receives a surge of "Troll" and "Overrated" moderations from his sockpuppets, while Rui's posts get modded up. Often, additional anonymous posters will appear to give support and receive upmods. At the same time, accused users who defend themselves are modded "Offtopic."
Rui Maciel's contact information
Email: greatbunzinni@gmail.com, greatbunzinni@engineer.com, or rui.maciel@gmail.com
IM: greatbunzinni@jabber.org (the same Jabber account currently listed on his Slashdot account)
Blog: http://rui_maciel.users.sourceforge.net/
Programming projects: http://www.programmersheaven.com/user/GreatBunzinni/contributions
The following accounts have been confirmed to be Rui Maciel, in order of activity. You'll notice that they all share a posting style and often reply to each other:
HarrySquatter
Galestar
GameboyRMH
ZeroSumHappiness
Jeng
Nerdfest
TheNarrator
flurp
anonymov
chrb
zidium
NicknameOne
Nicknamename
forkfail
icebike
ilguido
psiclops
Toonol
russotto
rreyelts
symbolset
tl;dr: An Ubuntu fan named Rui Maciel is waging an organ
What, did EFF ask about cats in boxes or something?
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
If NSA is not partnering with Google, then probably somebody needs to be fired. If I were them, I probably would have responded with a "well Duh!" comment.
Very interesting, so you've taken a post someone wrote about you, Bonch, and then you've changed all the names to make it look like it is pro-google shilling going on while in actuality it is you doing anti-google shilling.
You are a funny funny person, go kill yourself.
Don't know something? Look it up. Still don't know? Then ask.
It's been known for a long time that Google has been secretly working with NSA.
Citation needed.
http://www.geoffreylandis.com
Oh no, Jeng forget to tick that post anonymously box again!
Hey cool, bonch is now claiming I'm a sockpuppet shilling for Google despite having been downmodded in the past for negative Google posts. I've also made positive Apple posts, too. I'm not a very good pro-Google shill, apparently.
As I said on the Wired article, what should Google, a US company, have done when what are likely state or state-backed Chinese hackers thoroughly compromise one of their services?
*Not* turn to "U.S. authorities”? Do nothing? It's certainly bizarre when a US company under attack by another nation-state would be expected to *not* involve our own government.
Guess what: our intelligence activities and capabilities are secret, not because we want to "hide them from the public", but because they necessarily remain secret for the precise reasons the courts ruled the way they did in this case: so that our ADVERSARIES don't understand our sources, methods, capabilities, and responses.
I know most people here believe the NSA is evil, instead of looking across the Pacific to a country that can scarcely wait to displace the US as a global power, while keeping a firm stranglehold on its citizens. I imagine there will be many tired references to the Utah Data Center in the comments section here, too, from people who completely misunderstand the law, and NSA's purpose and missions.
1. Google claims "don't be evil."
2. Of course, the NSA exists to protect us from evil. ("They ultimate being," I suppose.) Such as all those bad people with weird headgear. Yuck.
Thus and therefore: it is Google's job to work with the NSA.
Oh no, bonch has another sockpuppet that will be permanently -1 in about 5 minutes!
There was a post a few days ago that I did intend to have AC that I posted under my name, other than that I have never accidentally not posted as AC when I meant to.
Don't know something? Look it up. Still don't know? Then ask.
If the NSA knows you're googling goatse and tub girl all day long? It's not as if we don't already know this to be true. Also, your mom's calling. (I know because I'm in her right now).
[Captcha is "offend" now that's what I'm talking about]
It starts to bug me. Why are there two types of investigation? 1) "The hacker could not be traced as probably several servers were used". 2) "The IP was from China/Russia, so the hacker too". So since it is politically useful to the Americans to point at China, I suggest all hackers to get one of the computer in China. Best is Russia last with all logs at max, then China, then the usual.
The Security of a Nation is in its People, each and every one, not in the Security of its Government.
Secrets mean you Fear, and Fear will put you on the path to Terror. (Sound familiar?)
In the name of Love and Peace, one should never submit to lies and subterfuge under the domain of Fear. To do so is counter-productive to why we are here. Agents of the government are afraid to tell the people of their knowledge. Fear pervades the second most important institution of our lives. They FEAR to tell you the TRUTH of many things. Do not be complacent enough to believe you should be denied knowledge for the 'greater good'. It is done for the 'greater evil', if believe you that evil and negative emotions, fear, anger, terror, are kin.. as good is to love, peace, charity, and gifting.
This is the spirit in every story you read, Bible to fiction, spanning from the beginning of all things to the very end. And the choice, though it may not seem, is always yours. ALWAYS. Even inaction is a choice.
Who are you? Where do you stand, what do you know? What will you do for the sake of your brothers and sisters? Will you hide in fear, or reveal with love?
The choice is yours.
none of this kinky getting down dirty stuff.
I'm going to try that when my wife asks me if the transexual hooker named Serene who called the house at 4am looking for her "little man, Ratsie" is someone that I know.
"I can neither confirm nor deny..."
We'll see how that works out.
You are welcome on my lawn.
Yet, they keep the secret from the tax payers. That makes perfect sense.
Revealing a person's real name and contact information on a public forum that will likely be archived forever seems supremely uncool.
My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
Why are we arguing? We all know that everybody that posts on /. these days is paid to post on slashdot by someone with lots of money. Why else would you post on /.?
This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
to cynically assume the worst. You'll come up just a little short of reality but you won't be very surprised.
Considering the NSA is currently building the world's largest data warehouse / encryption system http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/03/ff_nsadatacenter/all/1 ... and that google saves everything, and knows who asked the questions.. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/20/AR2006012001799.html, you are well on your way to the NSA knowing what you were looking for, and devising ways to illegalize precrime and do away with the annoying unconstitutionality of prior restraint.
"No good deed goes unpunished"
I can only wish I was Rui getting checks from Google. That'd be sweet.
They can just not respond? And somehow they expect that to be interpreted differently than rejecting the request?
By making that ruling, aren't they making non-response the new rejection?
So if I put in a FOIA request asking for information about cooperation between the NSA and aliens... a rejection means they cooperate, and a non-response means they cooperate. Thereby confirming not only the existence of aliens, but the fact that the government knows about them and has been covering them up. A lot can be inferred from silence now.
It's irrelevant whether google shares data with the NSA. With or without the NSA, they are highly intrusive to privacy, and anybody who cares about their privacy stopped using google (or running their script tentacles that are all over the damned internet now).
It just doesn't matter. If you care about privacy, you don't use google, or facebook, or other similar things.
As long as they would be open and honest about their shilling there would not be an issue.
Hell, even if he just did his shilling under one account it wouldn't be so bad.
As it is, he has created half a dozen accounts today alone and floods topics such as this posting his bullshit.
It turns this place into less a place you can honestly discuss topics and more into the bathroom wall in a truck stop.
Don't know something? Look it up. Still don't know? Then ask.
Do you have proof? How would you even know who is posting under what account and when they were created without access to Slashdot's database?
now the NSA is completely exempt from FOIA?
they can just ignore ALL requests, and there is no vetting of their reasons. Brilliant.
Next the CIA and FBI will do the same, so the law becomes meaningless.
side-note: How does this post fail the lameness filter and look like ASCII art?
Yes. First posts that are hundreds and hundreds of words long made by non-subscriber accounts who have never posted before within seconds of a post going up that repeat bonch's anti-Google diatribes. The only way the could o so would be to be the sockpuppet of a subscriber account such as...bonch himself.
Confirmed.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
This answers the question. Of course, everyone knew this already.
For those of us with more than 10 to 15 years of life left in us, we are standing on the fringe of a very terrifying, yet exciting moment in world history. On the red corner we have the secret societies pushing as hard as they can for a totalitarian world government seeking to exploit all the resources the world has to offer (including the whole of humanity itself) for their own private benefits at any cost. On the blue corner we have a world population armed with access to more access to technolegy and knowledge than any generation before in human history. Things like instant cost-free publishing and unbreakable encryption have only been in the hands of the people for a sliver of the human timeline. The internet has let the geany out of the lamp, so to speak.
So the question is, by the time my children reach my age (I'm 20, no wife or kids yet), will they be living in a post-imperial age, or will they be brainwashed rfid-tagged livestock who's only purpose is to serve the elite? All I know is no matter how dumb the media may make us Americans seem, there still are plenty of us who DO see what is going on, and it scares the living SHIT out of us... and with all of these government surveilence programs and the military industrial complex, combined with the fact that all of our polititians are owned by the corporations, it looks like it won't be much longer until the first shot will be fired. Godspeed everyone.
This is the same answer the NSA would give if they were asked about a working relationship with any Company in the world.
They give a blanket, we aren't going to answer that question about everyone. Makes it harder to tell who they are really working with if the response is always the same.
Christ, will you two just get a room already...
Then Rui shouldn't have included his Jabber contact info on his GreatBunzinni profile and then forgotten to uncheck "Post Anonymously" when trolling. Notice all his sockpuppets are now replying and are on the attack, confirming the existence of the campaign.
Why is the NSA watching me? I've done nothing wrong!
If you are doing nothing wrong you have nothign to hide!
Can I see what information you arecollecting then?
We don't need to respond to FOIA requests.
But... the future refused to change.
Darn. Where do I get my cheque? I'm missing out!
-- Mal: "Well they tell you: never hit a man with a closed fist. But it is, on occasion, hilarious."
Sounds like time to wait until the FOIA legal time period runs out, then just absolutely spam them with FOIA requests. I mean, they won't answer them, but at least it'll let them know that breaking the law will cost them plenty of money as floods of FOIA requests come in . (Yes they are breaking the law -- I don't care what these dirty uncle-fucking paid-off judges say, the whole "national security" part of FOIA was to avoid putting in-place spies in danger or blow *SPECIFIC* ongoing operations, not allow a nationwide police state by just claiming it's "national security".)
When I had a security clearance "neither confirm nor deny" was what we were instructed to say when asked what we did. If the affiliation with Google is classified then that's the right answer here too.
Of course they don't have to confirm or deny the relationship, according to the summary, the court already did it for them.
A DC appeals court has ruled that the National Security Agency doesn't need to either confirm or deny its secret relationship with Google...
Slashdot has always been about shilling. This place was practically founded by the ABM camp (Sun/Oracle/Netscape) to spread FUD about Microsoft. They did such a good job shilling for Google over the years that former slashdot boss Chris DiBona now works there. (Remember when Doubleclick was enemy #1 around here....whatever happend to them?)
You guys are obsessed with "bonch" (old school troll) because you have your thresholds set low, but surf this site at the default setting and it's mostly +5 Insightful "I luv Google" posts.
Sure we are bonch.
I love how he talks about himself in the third person. It would be funny, it if weren't so sad.
Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
"It's been known for a long time that Google has been secretly working with NSA. You may ask why they do it?"
Known by who? What sources do you have?
It's a pity that such ridiculous statements even got modded up to 3 votes...
http://www.yacy.net/en/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SheevaPlug
Assume Control Of Your Own Data. Encrypt everything. Fuck the Snooping Pork-Barellers !
Microsoft has allowed a backdoor for the NSA to enter on its Windows Operating System. Maybe people should look that up as well.
Is it from NSA where you get that data from ? It would not be the first case of USG trying to destroy someone by first intercepting telecom networks and then sending out the shitty guys from CIA to perform intimidation. I hope someday you will cross a really bad guy and he will do to you what you deserve !
..you get 99% of Google search traffic. Gmail and gdocs is only slightly more difficult - force your national SSL Cert Authority to sign a bogus SSL certificate and do a NKVD-In-The-Middle.
...when NSA hands their "take" to the nasty guys in the leather jackets who will visit any dissident IN PERSON for some intimidation. And of course your neighbours and your general community to spread some really nasty lies and half-lies about you.
...by providing the Leather Jacket Pigs with your Full Email History of the Last 10 Years.
Believe me on this - if you seriously question all the stupid shit the mainstream media foist onto people (e.g. "we are in afghanistan to help women get an education", "the russians are the worst in terms of imminet nuclear war" etc), THEY WILL VISIT YOU.
So yes, if you just do some technobabble (e.g. the GPL, MS, Oracle ), you are fine. But never, ever will you try to question that political-military-journalist-complex consensus of ChinaIsAMilitaryThreat|TalibanDontEnjoySupport|AmericaNeverThreatenedWithArmageddon|AmericaIsAlwaysTheGoodguys.
The whole intel/security apparatus has started to get a life of its own and they will only stop short of beating and killing dissidents. So yes, that's better than China and Russia, where you would be beaten up. But it is by no means as "free" and "rule of law" as they (the officials and their lackeys) are making it up. I was personally insulted as a "dog" who had to be "scratched" by the head librarian of my home town, because someone of the gobbermint had paid a visit to her. I never had a conversation with her before - it was all based on some hearsay. The nasty truth in this is that ordinary people who have an academic qualification can be turned into nasty tools of the gobbermint. So much to all the theorizing about "civil society" and all that.
That library was stuffed full of books about humanist ideals, but the personnel themselves had a spine made out of gelatin. Western Germany, 2009.
..to not carry a mobile phone. Not use facebook. Use search engines through TOR. Meet real people in reality. The gobbermint will salivate over the "treasure" of data they can get from the 99% who are too lazy to follow these rules.
Seriously people, settle down.
We all know there is No Such Agency and that they have a mandate to secretly try to catch villains involved in our national security. That means, they don't care about your torrent of that cam of some shitty movie you downloaded. Nor do they care how much music you pirate, or even what porn you watch. We have entrusted them with a shroud of secrecy in order to operate under the radar and find bad guys.
Now when they start breaking that trust for bullshit domestic reasons, if they ever do, then we hold their noses to the grindstone. But until then, we have to remember why we gave them such a mandate to begin with. We also need to remember that ignorance is bliss.
Before I sound like a complete lackey, let me say this; shaking the mechanism that houses the safety on No Such Agency and making sure it still works is a wise idea. Somewhere in the machine there are safeties should they stray out of their mandate to correct themselves. They would have to, in order to remain off the radar and not make domestic enemies. You step on toes, people notice and start looking.
Are they working with Google? Who cares? If they did in light of recent events, then why would that be a bad thing? We should be happy about it. Again, stop being paranoid about your own shit and letting it paint your image of them. Yes, it's a monster, but it's our monster. Stop poking it with a damn stick to see if it will bite your goofy ass.
Look on the bright side, if they are overtly working with Google, (at least to Google) then there is a level of accountability even if it's from exposure. Bluntly put, if they do something fucked up and leave Google holding the bag, Google has enough money to at least punch someone from No Such Agency in the dick. Getting punched in said region isn't good for business and puts No Such Agency on the radar where it becomes vulnerable. Assured mutual destruction can be a wonderful diplomacy tool. Honesty is the best policy, if you start messing around, you shake loose "things" that turn up at the worse possible moment.
It's probably a nervous date between the two. They want to catch bad guys, Google wants to make money and not be sued shitless over privacy rights violations. There is probably an annoying amount of "cover your own ass" protocols that have to be followed that people are getting carpel tunnel signing forms. Anyway, that is how I see it. I don't envision dark evil plots being carried out by minions, that's a DC thing.
Take the Red Pill.
I don't object to NSA collecting the information, and it wouldn't matter if I did under law and precedent under our "common law" system.
I do however object to information obtained in violation of the Constitution and the Rules of Evidence to be used in either a civil or criminal case against any U.S. Citizen or "legal person". If somehow "extralegal" evidence is allowed to be used for any purpose other than military or neo-military, that would be a direct and overt violation of civil rights. Period.
There should be a bright line there. If for any reason it is not there now, we need a new law or RULING to verify it.
JJ
Have gnu, will travel.
Why are we arguing? We all know that everybody that posts on /. these days is paid to post on slashdot by someone with lots of money.
I'm arguing because I want to know who took my money.
It's something I've been saying for at least five years (somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but there you go).
Coming up with a credible plan to coax people to hand them over their data willingly is Just The Right Thing To Do for the NSA. One might even argue that they ain't worth their salt if they didn't. For an added bonus, this scheme is financially self-supporting by a comfortable margin.
So it would have made a hell of a lot of sense for them to "invent" Google.
Taking into account that NSA employs many of the brightest mind around, this {hypothesis|conspiracy theory} is just... plausible.
When one voluntarily participates in activities via the Internet, does he have a right to believe that he may do so anonymously or in any sort of private forum? I think not. The Internet is the world's largest "public forum". I believe the World Wide Web was designed to be just that--- a public forum for the exchange of ideas and information. I don't believe that Google ever made any representations to the contrary. They have always admitted that they maintain records of the searching activities of all who use their search engine. The question now, is whether they freely exchange this information with the National Security Agency, and what other items are part pf this agreement between Google and the government. I think the public has a right to know. When one conducts a search on Google, they record his IP address along with the searches, search results, and the specific links the user clicks. Unless of course the user is logged-in at the time of the search. If so, his name will be added to the rest of the information Google maintains. When a use goes from his open Gmail account, to the Google browser, he is automatically logged-in to the search engine. However, the user may log-out of Google before browsing. Google makes it easy for the user to be logged-in, because they want the search information for their marketing efforts. It's all about money. Clearly, this agreement between Google and the NSA, may affect Constitutional safeguards and protections to U.S. citizens. Because of this, the public does have a right to know. Seems to me that this case will ultimately be decided by the Supreme Court. The NSA will defend itself by saying that the war on terror and homeland security override any Constitutional protections Google users have. They will demonstrate countless cases where convicted terrorists used Google to search for means and methods to conduct their criminal activity. Google will defend by saying that a user may simply use their browser anonymously. The Supreme Court will balance the interests of Google, the NSA, and the rights of the public to know about the "secret agreement". Stay tuned to Part II-- "Google and the Government Do the Supremes".
Gershon Ben-Peretz Attorney and President of LegalWritingServices.com
It used to be that the magic words were "abracadbra" or "presto chango", but now the new magic words are "national security". Those words hypnotize judges into giving the government anything it wants. It seems to even work on corporations: Google, ATT etc.The NSA is the Fight Club. The first rule of the NSA is you don't talk about the NSA
It leaves me wondering exactly what kind of security system we really have. It seems to be some unholy tangle of secret government combined with corporate indifference to laws and civic responsibility. Ike warned about the military-industrial complex. Today he would probably be warning us about the national security-corporate alliance that has taken root in the US. We pay for the NSA, but we don't get to ask about what they do. Our representatives oversee them in secret, give them money in secret (we can't see the "black budget"), and don't talk about what they oversee. Is the money worth it? Who knows? You and I will never find out. Is the NSA spying on US citizens? You and I won't get a straight answer. Does the government issue death warrants for US citizens without due process? You bet, but we are not privy to those decisions until CNN announces it. Is Google assisting the NSA? My guess is yes. And I'll bet everyone else, ATT, Microsoft, etc., at the top of the food chain is also. There is nothing to lose and everything to gain for both sides. Customers and stockholders don't care and you can't prove it because the government will invoke the magic words.
It would indeed be reasonable for NSA and Google to clearly state that their respective business is not intermingled.
But then, the Western Public has been scared by the Terrist and Yellow-Slit-Eye Bogeyman - that they accept any of these "Security" Measures.
LOL I'm Rui Maciel now? And I live in Portugal?
+1 Go kill yourself. Or at least go fuck yourself.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
Eat shit and die, bonch, and then suck satan's cock in hell. Maybe he'll pay you, it'll be an improvement.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
I have a hunch bonch's real name is Matt Deatheridge:
http://apple.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2616908&cid=38670604
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
I'm also a pro-Google shill although I've long been critical of Android's tivoization and have a journal post on how to reduce your Google data footprint.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel