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DEA Wants To Install License Plate Scanners and Retain Data for Two Years

An anonymous reader writes with news that might make privacy advocates a bit uneasy. From the article: "Everyone driving on Interstate 15 in southwest Utah may soon have their license plate scanned by the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration. The DEA and two sheriffs are asking permission to install stationary license plate scanners on the freeway in Beaver and Washington counties. The primary purpose would be to catch or build cases against drug traffickers, but at a Utah Legislature committee meeting Wednesday, the sheriffs and a DEA representative described how the scanners also could be used to catch kidnappers and violent criminals. That, however, wasn't the concern of skeptical legislators on the Law Enforcement and Criminal Justice Interim Committee. They were worried about the DEA storing the data for two years and who would be able to access it."

295 comments

  1. Scary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    First they store it for 2 years.. which is terrifying enough.. but we all know that will become 3 years.. then 4.. and before we know it, they'll be storying license plate scans for centuries.

    At least future historians will have detailed records on who drove over Interstate 15 in southwest Utah in the 21's century. Of course they'll probably assume the plates represent our names or something..

    1. Re:Scary by game+kid · · Score: 5, Funny

      At least future historians will have detailed records on who drove over Interstate 15 in southwest Utah in the 21's century. Of course they'll probably assume the plates represent our names or something..

      "I am not a free man, I am a number!"

      --no, that can't be right...

      --
      You can hold down the "B" button for continuous firing.
    2. Re:Scary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      no, that's about right.

    3. Re:Scary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And all the while the drug runners use different vehicles via rental services. They look like tourists, and nothing else. And with different plates every time.

    4. Re:Scary by Lumpy · · Score: 2

      If a criminal had ANY clue they would swap plates at minimum, or go high tech and use a nice bright display that can change to whatever they want.

      Scan and store license plates, Yeah this will only catch the idiot drug runners, or simply increase the amount of car thefts so they can borrow a car for a drug run.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    5. Re:Scary by flyneye · · Score: 1

      Not to worry though, since it's public knowledge about the plate scanners, I envision drug runners changing plates or occasionally using a different car.
      As for aggregating useful data, they are going to find a lot of patterns. Commercial drivers, Buses, weekly delivery routes, service routes, People driving a long way to work every day. Police aren't picked for duty by having a high i.q. In fact every dept. I've ever heard of across the country avoids high i.q. as the hallmark of an independent thinker who uses their judgement. Not what you want in a cop. Just enough brains to recall what a crime is and dumb enough to not think about it. Really, literally! Many personality types are sorted out, but honest,semi-idiots are welcomed with open arms. I'm sure they prefer detectives with some college behind them, but then we all know college isn't indicative of brains necessarily.
      But on the other hand, the voters need something to believe in, even if it is thousands of dollars of useless equipment churning out benign data and the drug runners take a different highway anyway. Gotta spend all that ticket money on something so you can get "COPS" to come film your dept.

      --
      *Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
    6. Re:Scary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even without the the slow expansion, it will likely actually be as much as 9 years immediately anyways (other agencies I've worked with require backup tapes to be stored up to 7 years).

    7. Re:Scary by SlippyToad · · Score: 5, Insightful

      ut license plate scanning on interstates doesn't even bother me - in the slightest. Doesn't "terrify" me at all - no matter how long they store the data.

      Sir Frog, you'll be boiling soon enough,.

      --
      One day I feel I'm ahead of the wheel / the next it's rolling over me / I can get back on / I can get back on
    8. Re:Scary by aurispector · · Score: 5, Interesting

      "Papers, please! Pick up that can, citizen. You may not pass checkpoint until you pass government check!"

      Amazing how many people are eager to throw themselves into the the arms of a totalitarian government. "No expectation of privacy" has morphed into "constant recording of activities".

      --
      I have mod points. The reign of terror begins now.
    9. Re:Scary by AngryDeuce · · Score: 1

      Or another 4 years of Obama for that matter.

      They see me trollin'...

    10. Re:Scary by gtall · · Score: 0

      "I've ever heard of across the country avoids high i.q. as the hallmark of an independent thinker who uses their judgement."

      This sounds like something you've pulled out of your butt. Any cops I've dealt with, especially the detectives, were quite bright. If any law enforcement agency had such a policy, local reporters would be all over it and that would be the end of that.

    11. Re:Scary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      People act like the goal of society should be 100% law enforcement and whatever tools the government needs are justified.

      Soon we'll look back on the days when people could occasionally "get away with stuff" and when 50% of the population wasn't in jail.

    12. Re:Scary by RivenAleem · · Score: 2

      Funny how people will defend Google for taking publicly available information from unsecured wifi

      "Hey, if I shout out my email conversations from my balcony, why should I be surprised if someone intercepts that information"

      Is this different to someone standing at the side of an interstate and writing down the plates of everyone who drives by? Considering how people say that the government is in the pockets of the corporations, why do people give different rational when an issue of recording publicly available information comes up.

      Google = Fine, Government = Bad?

      This post is not directed specifically at the parent, but at the general trend of posts in this thread.

    13. Re:Scary by mwfischer · · Score: 5, Funny

      If only the government had a listing of everyone's license plate. That would be scary!

    14. Re:Scary by Hatta · · Score: 1

      The recording of activities in public is barely worth mentioning next to the atrocity that is the War on Drug Users.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    15. Re:Scary by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      The problem with 'papers please' wasn't that they were recording your license plate number, or ID, or where you went. It was that they wouldn't let you go anywhere without permission. You lived in St Petersberg but wanted to move to Moscow? Forget it comrade, that line is a million long! Even changing apartments or jobs could be difficult.

      Whereas in America, you could go wherever you want, and work for anyone who would pay you. That isn't going to change any time soon, don't let the scaremongers fool you.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    16. Re:Scary by Culture20 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Hell yes, government:bad. The worst google could do with the information is have a rogue employee use it to stalk people. The worst the government could do? Use your imagination. Government is supposed to be restricted for good reasons.

    17. Re:Scary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A smart criminal would install infared lights (IR) around the license plate. They are invisible to the naked eye but blinding to cameras.

    18. Re:Scary by xer0aim · · Score: 1

      No it's not something he pulled out of his butt. Here is an example http://abcnews.go.com/US/court-oks-barring-high-iqs-cops/story?id=95836

    19. Re:Scary by i286NiNJA · · Score: 3, Insightful

      No the problem with papers please was that they could pull you over for any reason and then ask to see paperwork describing the purpose of your trip. That sucks, and it was unimaginable to americans once upon a time, now the police just regularly break the rules here by pulling over first and deciding why 2nd, if you tell them where you're going is none of their business when they ask, you're sure to be subject to unlawful search many places in the country, if the search turns up nothing you're getting framed up anyhow. traveling papers we don't bother with the papers part. I say law enforcement gets no new help until they demonstrate they're mature enough for the power they already have and that's the day that cops step forward and report those who "make mistakes" as a matter of course doing their job daily. M I am told by a friend in moscow that they can detain you without reason for 8 days. i believe ukraine just got rid of their traveling papers within the past 10 years... so no your version of why it was bad is totally wrong, the history is too fresh for you to revise it yet sorry. It's human nature to want things that make your job easier but since we don't have some sort of high tech space soviets to use as an example of who we're not supposed to be we'll give LE all the power they want with new tools. Four legs good two legs better right?

    20. Re:Scary by Garybaldy · · Score: 1

      Sorry you must of been afk when it was reported police departments prefer dumb officers.

    21. Re:Scary by omglolbah · · Score: 1

      And signal to every camera that they're up to no good :p

      Obscuring the license plate is illegal ;)

    22. Re:Scary by KingMotley · · Score: 3, Interesting

      When it is legal for me to remove my license plates, or to encrypt them with a key that changes hourly, then perhaps you have a point.

    23. Re:Scary by Fnord666 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Funny how people will defend Google for taking publicly available information from unsecured wifi

      Because Google is not the government. Despite what some people think about corporations and the government these days, Google does not have the ability to deprive you of your life or your freedom. The Government on the other hand can and does these days. Big difference.

      --
      'The tyrant will always find pretext for his tyranny.' - Aesop's Fables
    24. Re:Scary by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Too bad I used my mod points yesterday. The responses to your post are all very good summaries of why your example misses the huge differences between the government and Google.
      1) License plates are mandatory accessories on a car. There is no way for me to legally avoid this type of monitoring, unless I decide to walk. Compare that with Google: I can easily encrypt the signal, and carry on just as before.
      2) It is the government. I am forced to do business with the government. I can choose to ignore Google. Yay Noscript!
      3) The government enforces its terms at gun point. A dispute with Google involves at worst some fines.
      4) Government is full of people who love to tell me what I should do. Google is merely interested in finding out what I'm doing.

      So yes, Google=Fine, Government = Bad. Let me know if you still don't understand the differences between what the Government is and can do, and what Google is and can do.

      --
      Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
    25. Re:Scary by David+Chappell · · Score: 1

      And signal to every camera that they're up to no good :p

      Obscuring the license plate is illegal ;)

      I suppose that depends on how the scanners work. I suspect they scan the frame for things which look like license plate numbers. If the IR lamps create enough glare, the scanner might record nothing.

      I am looking forward to the comical legal exchanges which are likely to ensue the first time someone is accused of "obscuring" his license plate in this way.

    26. Re:Scary by RivenAleem · · Score: 1

      Excellent response, and something I completely missed. Thanks.

    27. Re:Scary by firewrought · · Score: 1

      The worst google could do with the information is have a rogue employee use it to stalk people. The worst the government could do? Use your imagination.

      So I find it funny that you encourage folks to use their imagination when apparently you haven't used your own imagination about what Google could do if it were profitable and politically feasible. Large-scale blackmail, extortion, fraud, vilification, incitement, etc., are all possibilities if the Goog were so inclined.

      Sometimes I get this vibe from libertarians that governments must be strictly monitored and controlled while private parties outside of government should be able to function in any (lawful, non-violent) way they please, so long as they uphold the contracts they have agreed to. This is naive: freedom is threatened by any large disparity in power, not just that disparity which exists between the government and the governed.

      --
      -1, Too Many Layers Of Abstraction
    28. Re:Scary by cayenne8 · · Score: 1
      You wouldn't be obscuring the plate...the human eye could easily still read it.

      Just because their automated equipment fails....isn't your fault.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    29. Re:Scary by omglolbah · · Score: 1

      I'm sure you would get really far trying to make that point in court ;)

    30. Re:Scary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Whereas in America, you could go wherever you want, and work for anyone who would pay you. That isn't going to change any time soon, don't let the scaremongers fool you.

      The difference is, today they can't implement that, because they can't stop every car.
      Tomorrow, if these cameras are allowed to proliferate, they can, because as soon as you pass the license plate camera, and it hits on "unapproved for travel" in the database, well then, they can quickly identify you.

      Will it really happen? Maybe not, but I'd like to live in a world where they simply can't because it's not feasible.

    31. Re:Scary by BigSes · · Score: 1

      Because Google is not the government. Despite what some people think about corporations and the government these days, Google does not have the ability to deprive you of your life or your freedom. The Government on the other hand can and does these days. Big difference.

      I've played lots of Syndicate, I know what corporations can accomplish!!!

    32. Re:Scary by Culture20 · · Score: 2

      Large-scale blackmail, extortion, fraud, vilification, incitement, etc., are all possibilities if the Goog were so inclined.

      And a whistleblower would eventually notify a federal agency and they'd be busted. Google might do a lot of illegal things? Yes, scary. Scarier still: The government could use the information to identify the locations of the "undesirables" of a given decade, and efficiently do away with them. Depending on common traffic patterns, it could help identify "undesirables" themselves ("sir, 300 license plates have been identified as being in the five cities where recent 'Anonymous' protests occurred"). And because it's the government, they have the threat of force to back such use. Who are the whistleblowers going to tell? Who's going to bust the government when it grows too much? The media? Assange? Google?

    33. Re:Scary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "No expectation of privacy" has morphed into "constant recording of activities".

      Only due to technology. It's not like any of this has ever been prohibited to the government in principle.
      Constant recording of public activities wouldn't bother me at all.
      If you have something to hide, then hide it. That's why bathrooms have doors.

    34. Re:Scary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's really a shame that your pithy retort is based on a myth.

    35. Re:Scary by flyneye · · Score: 1

      Lol, ask them if they remember the long-ass MMPI they took to begin with. That with a battery of i.q. and other psych tests got run through our office regularly. Local and state contracts and not just this state. There are a variety of very good reasons to pick them , we'll say , not complicated. Of course, municipalities that can afford testing get the cream. The worst case scenarios tend to filter down to more rural areas. ( yes, friends, that's a travelers advisory)
      I've heard of cases where the tests were taken, a poor summary was given and the results were merely kept on file , as well. So there's no accounting for what passes for H.R. in some places.

      --
      *Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
    36. Re:Scary by flyneye · · Score: 1

      Newsclowns are definitely not the brightest bulbs on the tree either. Otherwise they might find a vocation that contributes...

      --
      *Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
    37. Re:Scary by fearlezz · · Score: 2

      Yup. Exactly how it happened in the Netherlands. Unfortunately, we have these license plate scanners around all big cities. They were installed after politicians promised they would never store license plates that weren't linked to serious crimes. Just a few years later, ALL license plates are stored for a longer period.

      And know what the good part is? Real criminals don't fear the camera's at all. Last week a report on this subject was published: http://goo.gl/W8OF8 . The total of 230 camera's placed on just 40km of highway around Rotterdam generate more than 10.000 notifications every single day. About 60% of these notifications were discarded. If any action was taken, it was mostly people who had outstanding tickets, a tax debt, or whose license was revoked.

      --
      .sig: No such file or directory
    38. Re:Scary by surd1618 · · Score: 1

      Under certain circumstances, Google could exert more power than any other independent organization in all of history.

    39. Re:Scary by cbiltcliffe · · Score: 1

      "It's not obscured. You can read it just fine, officer.

      It's not my fault your camera sucks rocks....
      What do you need a camera on me for, anyway? Are you stalking me?
      Or are you after pictures of my 9 year old daughter? You're a pedophile, aren't you?

      PEDOPHILE! PEDOPHILE!!!"

      While turning things around like this might be fun for a few minutes, if a dirty cop is in a bad mood, you'll probably get written up on the worst of trumped up charges they can think of.

      --
      "City hall" in German is "Rathaus" Kinda explains a few things......
  2. Scanning versus storage by bonch · · Score: 1, Insightful

    The two-year storage is really the only part that bothers me. But the actual scanning doesn't, for some reason. I guess because people see my license plate every day anyway. It's a pretty public thing already, and it's government-issued so the only data being collected that they don't already have is my location, but again, any driver on the freeway can already see me. I don't know; usually I'm against most kinds of data harvesting, but for some reason this doesn't bug me as much. I guess because driving in your vehicle is such a publicly identifiable thing anyway, and it is on government property.

    1. Re:Scanning versus storage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What (kinda) worries me is when they start doing more analysis.

      I imagine the technology isn't too far off (if not already here) to analyse video of and determine bad driving. Join that up with license plate scanning and a system where you are automatically ticketed on making any driving violation.

      It's an interesting concept. I don't know if I'd want that or not. On a logical level it makes sense, but something about it puts me off. Obviously fines and such would need to be adjusted, as current penalties assume for every 1 violation you get away with 19 or so.. but even still, the absoluteness of it bugs me.

    2. Re:Scanning versus storage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "...and it is on government property."

      You meant PUBLIC property. Right?

      RIGHT?

    3. Re:Scanning versus storage by rahvin112 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The thing you aren't seeing and that isn't explained in the article is why. They want to cross-reference vehicles that come through the area multiple times and don't live in the area. They will then use this in a probable cause warrant.

      Think about that and what it means.

    4. Re:Scanning versus storage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      OK, I'll bite.

      Buy stock in FedEx?

    5. Re:Scanning versus storage by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 2

      It's a pretty public thing already, and it's government-issued so the only data being collected that they don't already have is my location, but again, any driver on the freeway can already see me.

      Ignoring the storage issue, which is huge, your analogy to other drivers breaks down in that no other driver is able to view and process every single license plate on the road. It would be an unreasonable task for a human to look at the plate of every car that passes by and do anything meaningful with that information (like real-time searches of databases of plates) therefor using a camera and a computer to do it instead verges on, if not outright qualifies as, an unreasonable search.

      If this is really important, they can get a warrant. Otherwise it is not important enough to justify pushing back our constitutional rights to freedom of travel and freedom from unreasonable searches.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    6. Re:Scanning versus storage by jamstar7 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The obvious implications bother me. When I was driving from northwest Arizona to western Colorado on a regular basis, I regularly drove I-15. Interstate highways are supposed to make interstate movement easier, right? So driving interstate now makes me a suspected drug smuggler? Just fucking lovely. How many thousands of vehicles drive I-15? Of those thousands, how many are drug smugglers? And how many of those drug smugglers are smart enough to change vehicles between runs?

      --
      Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
    7. Re:Scanning versus storage by zippo01 · · Score: 1

      That wouldn't in itself justify a search warrant. But can give you a target to look into further.

    8. Re:Scanning versus storage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Funny

      Freeways/interstate highways are actually funded my the military. They were actually put there to provide big enough lanes for tanks to travel on in case of invasion.

    9. Re:Scanning versus storage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Good god, you're right, the interstates ARE used for all sorts of anti-social criminal purposes like drug trafficing, opportunity seeking and the White Slave Trade!

      This is unacceptable! They must be shut down immediately! THINK OF THE CHILDREN!

    10. Re:Scanning versus storage by mirix · · Score: 4, Insightful

      For me it's more... when you only had physical 'watchers', there was some amount of privacy via lack of manpower.

      However, once it's electronic, there can really be no end to it, and there can be many installations. Then computers can then use the data to map out everything you do, something that couldn't be done in the past without the 'suspect' (victim?) noticing they were being tailed.
      The other thing is once the system is up, the only difference between tracking suspects or parolees and everyone, is processing power.

      Maybe it's a bit of a slippery slope fallacy. Seems to me if it's important enough, put a few agents out there and scan the plates manually. Might help the unemployment numbers too. It would probably end up being cheaper than whatever no bid contract they pay for the limited system would cost, and would keep it limited.

      --
      Sent from my PDP-11
    11. Re:Scanning versus storage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Whoa, that's a HUGE leap you're making, and you admit it's not stated in the article at all.

      You are literally claiming that they will issue a warrant for nothing more than driving through an area multiple times. I'd rather not be scanned, but that kind of fear-mongering is just absurd.

    12. Re:Scanning versus storage by umghhh · · Score: 2
      you lost already.

      In Germany this already works - we have plate scanners to get fees for highway use. There is only very little law that prevents secret police (the one that is infiltrated by tea party like nazis it seems) from using this data and it seems that in factr they use it anyway. Drug laws in usofa are of course a good way to control population. it is funny that in a country of the free there is biggest prison population in the developed world. Are you really that free?

    13. Re:Scanning versus storage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      No court in America would think that simply driving on a road was probable cause for a search without other details (drugs laying around in plain view, driver acting intoxicated, etc). I don't think this data will be used for that. I think it will simply be the camel's nose from the old saying "Once the camel's nose is in the tent, the rest of the camel will soon follow." Tomorrow the scanners go up on the interstate, next week they go up on local highways, next month they go up on all major roads. Only then will you see cases that begin with, "We followed your license plate via scanners from your house here in the good part of town, all the way over to the bad part of town where it circled around a few times, and then back to your house. Based on the reputation of that area as a place where prostitutes and drug dealers hang out, we're executing a probable cause search of your house and vehicle for prostitutes, drugs, and money."

      It might not even start out like that. It might start out as something like, "John Doe, presidential candidate, was seen going to the bad part of town multiple times one week. Now, why would someone that lives in a fancy gated community want to go all the way down there late at night?"

    14. Re:Scanning versus storage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      ...and if you're brown, or "mooslem,": mistrust government, or are someone the government doesn't like, or the sheriff, or some lowly deputy, or just plain an odd duck you're screwed.

      That target just gives license for a fishing expedition and almost certainly you've violated some sort of law somewhere - it's pretty easy to make a criminal out of anyone given enough attention...you just hope it isn't you.

      -Greg

    15. Re:Scanning versus storage by bonch · · Score: 1, Interesting

      I don't know...I don't think freedom of travel and freedom from unreasonable search is being violated, as you're not being barred from travelling and you're not being searched. And I don't necessarily believe the legality of something changes simply because technology can do what humans can't. That argument of scale is the same argument the RIAA makes to differentiate P2P technology and 80s tape-trading.

      I mean, I'd prefer not to be scanned, but I just don't feel like my rights are being violated if it's known that I'm driving down the freeway, after having driven through who knows how many security cameras at intersections and shown my photo ID who knows how many times just to buy beer and M-rated videogames. I'm usually an anti-government surveillance guy, but I don't feel as if I'm giving up more information than I usually do.

      Not saying you're wrong or trying to argue with you. I agree with you that the storage is the real issue here, and I think two years is too long. The scanning itself just doesn't bother me for some reason. But it's possible other posters will make convincing arguments that could change my mind.

    16. Re:Scanning versus storage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Riiight.

      Here's another one:

      http://www.snopes.com/autos/law/airstrip.asp

    17. Re:Scanning versus storage by modecx · · Score: 1

      And that's all the more stupid. Playing with the idea, for a potential drug smuggler, there's dozens of ways around this. The least of which is taking dissimilar routes; or how about just swapping out stolen license plates / numbers off of cars which haven't been moved for a while. The plates might even be returned before anyone was the wiser. That would be a real challenge, right?

      They're basically counting on criminals to be stupid. Maybe that's enough for things to look good on the books, but it's going to be kinda useless at catching the real dangerous criminals: the smart ones. Unless that is, this camera system is to tied to the DMV database, with instant updating and real-time cross referencing, and perhaps a heuristics system capable of determining vehicle model--Person of Interest style. Would they tell us about that part? I find that thought infinitely more troubling than silly data storage concerns.

      --
      Constitutional rights may be respected, repealed, or modified; but they must never be ignored.
    18. Re:Scanning versus storage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How would that not give you enough to get a warrant but give the authorities enough to go on to investigate further? Aren't those mutually exclusive?

      Either somebody is doing something suspicious enough that a warrant or stop and search can be conducted, or they are not being suspicious enough to warrant (see what I did there?) that kind of attention. To say or think otherwise is doublespeak or doublethink.

    19. Re:Scanning versus storage by zippo01 · · Score: 2

      You are missing the fact that they already have mobile licenses plate scanners all over the country in police cars, as well as stoplight and speeding cameras, and automated toll booths cameras. I haven't heard all that much about profiling from them. Though I don't agree with speeding and stop light camera.

    20. Re:Scanning versus storage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There you have it, probable cause

    21. Re:Scanning versus storage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I agree that the storage is not an issue - but then what's the point of the surveillance of the public (lets call it what it is)? It seems to me that this will probably turn out to be like the naked body scanners at the airport - they say that people can't save any data off of the machines, but there was a leak of >100 pictures to the internet a few months after the major airports installed them. The problem is that the public has no way of verifying whether or not the images are being stored. And how useful is the data if the images are not stored and license plates correlated across time?

      I don't think the data would be very useful unless you had a police officer there who could chase down cars with license plates registered to people who had arrest warrants on them, and police cars already have automated plate number recognition systems on their cars to recognize license plates and alert the officer. That also requires a police officer be physically present and willing to give chase, and willing to call the chase off if it gets too dangerous or is obviously stupid for some reason.

      The idea of unmanned law enforcement sounds great until you realize that everybody being under constant surveillance is not a very American way of life, at least not in the past. Freedom-while-being-watched-to-make-sure-you-do-the-right-thing-and-punish-you-if-you-don't is not true freedom.

    22. Re:Scanning versus storage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They want this so that if they stop you and you have any cash they can make the case for seizing it because you drive the road too often for it to be legit.

    23. Re:Scanning versus storage by rahvin112 · · Score: 5, Informative

      I'm a resident of Utah. The DEA has been talking about stuff like this literally since the technology came about. I'm not surprised they are trying to get the Legislature to authorize it, they just had to get a county to buy in on it. But I am surprised it took them this long to find a county willing. Frankly the counties do a LOT of seizures and probably make a tidy profit on it but these cameras are going to make the DEA more interested in letting people pass so they can track them later so that's probably why it took this long to get a county to buy in on the plan.

      I-15 through Utah carries something like 60% of the drugs coming out of LA destined for the rest of the country. You might not be familiar with the geography but unless you are willing to drive on 300+ miles of dirt roads I-15 and I-10 are the only reasonable transit corridors out of LA to the rest of the country (unless you wanna drive from LA to Sacramento and come out on I-80). There just aren't that many roads across the Sierra's and as a result I-15 before it reaches I-70 becomes an ideal candidate for scanning and data collection. All you'd need is another camera in Arizona before it reaches Phoenix and you could cover almost 100% of the drug traffic out of southern California.

      As I said, there's been articles every few months in the local papers talking about it for the last couple decades with a big focus on tracking repeat users of the highway the last few years. As soon as I saw the report it wasn't hard to put it together.

    24. Re:Scanning versus storage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The short answer to your question is no. We are now of the corporations, by the corporations, for the corporations. Hold on to your freedoms, because the fact that we have the most powerful military in the world and the strongest political pull means that the same laws will come to your country sooner or later. And as an American, I am truly and seriously sorry about that.

    25. Re:Scanning versus storage by wideglide · · Score: 1

      Hate to break it to you - but most criminals ARE stupider than most policemen. Which implies that most criminals are terribly stupid.

      --
      The sum of intelligence on a planet is constant. Nowadays we have more people. When classic goes away, so do I. Copy
    26. Re:Scanning versus storage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That Rental companies will get searched regularly?

    27. Re:Scanning versus storage by KhabaLox · · Score: 1

      I-15 through Utah carries something like 60% of the drugs coming out of LA destined for the rest of the country.

      Who fucking cares? I mean, seriously. Why are we turning ourselves into (the bad parts) of the UK because people want to get high?

      --
      Ceci n'est pas un sig.
    28. Re:Scanning versus storage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Riiight.

      Here's another one:

      http://www.snopes.com/autos/law/airstrip.asp

      That Snopes article is about 1/2 truth and 1/2 bullshit. It starts off by making several glaring logical errors, then attacks anybody who might disagree with them. It doesn't actually get around to addressing the facts of the situation until the end, then glosses over the results.
      Fact- The interstates were not intended to be used as landing strips. They got this right, at least.
      Fact- The interstates CAN be used as landing strips for many types of planes. They got this wrong, and claim that a small private dirt strip which can land a Cessna is somehow going to be able to handle a high-powered jet or cargo plane. They also claim for some dumbass reason that using a few stretches of road as airstrips would result in closing down the entire interstate highway system, and ignore the possibility that ground units could simply move around areas which were being used to land aircraft.

      It's your typical Snopes garbage- a little bit of truth mixed in with some arrogance and a few personal attacks on any who might disagree. In any case, the parent is fully correct- one of the two primary reasons for the interstates was to facilitate the movement of troops and military hardware, the other being to facilitate travel and commerce. I don't recall anything stipulating width for the purposes of moving tanks, however.

    29. Re:Scanning versus storage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Actually, that is very un-American of you to suggest. Do you not realize that America has the largest black market in the world? These are services offered that are vital to our economic recovery. The goal is to slowly incarcerate the suspects to compete with foreign slave labour through private prisons. We need a steady flow of prisoners in order for our economy to retain cost-efficient production and avoid employment restrictions and any threats of potential unions seeking the benefit of health insurance. Be an American and support your local slave trade!

    30. Re:Scanning versus storage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Interesting defense, but I'm not buying it. You're under arrest, Mr. Hertz.

    31. Re:Scanning versus storage by BlueStrat · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The idea of unmanned law enforcement sounds great until you realize that everybody being under constant surveillance is not a very American way of life, at least not in the past. Freedom-while-being-watched-to-make-sure-you-do-the-right-thing-and-punish-you-if-you-don't is not true freedom.

      -----

      ED-209: "Please put down your weapon. You have 20 seconds to comply."

      [Alarmed, Kinney quickly tosses the gun away. ED-209 steps forward and growls menacingly.]

      ED-209: "You now have 15 seconds to comply."

      -----

      Strat

      --
      Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
    32. Re:Scanning versus storage by gl4ss · · Score: 1

      hmm. doesn't sound too ideal if it's the only place highway warriors(salesmen) will drive through too.

      why not just start doing random house searches in cali - get the problem at it's source!

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    33. Re:Scanning versus storage by digitig · · Score: 2

      None of which is even remotely relevant to the question of whether US highways are public or government property.

      --
      Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
    34. Re:Scanning versus storage by bejiitas_wrath · · Score: 2

      In the Anime Ghost in the Shell and the Robocop movies, the cars have barcode license plates. Predictive programming? How long until this is a reality?

      --
      liberare massarum ex ignorantia, clausa descendit molestie.
    35. Re:Scanning versus storage by mozumder · · Score: 1, Interesting

      No, it's still government property.

      The public doesn't own government property. Government is its own independent entity. Government property is strictly governments.

      The public is merely the board of directors for government that gives direction on how government may proceed.

    36. Re:Scanning versus storage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      It will be a lovely day when someone puts a bullet in your head. Cops are no different than any other gang.

    37. Re:Scanning versus storage by Artifakt · · Score: 3, Insightful

      People see license plates all the time, but they don't normally stand there logging them for hours each day. There's lots of data where this sort of distinction matters.

      For example, I'm a type 2 Diabetic. I voluntarily disclose this, and that I use a blood glucose meter and take Metformin for this condition. Now suppose somebody, perhaps working for my insurer, wants to check such data as what dates I refill my prescription, and what times of day I test, how regularly, and so on. There's several potential problems here. First, if my insurer wants to claim that I have been getting refills irregularly, it's in their interest if there's a law keeping me from stockpiling my medications, because that might be an alternate explanation for why I might go more than 1 month between refilling a 30 day supply.. Sure enough, there are an increasing number of drugs which don't have any known abuse potential, but that the prescriptions can only be filled for 1 month at a time, by law. The Insurers are not just interested in writing their rules so they don't pay out for multiple months at a time, but getting states to actually pass laws, which suggests to some of us that they really are trying to track such data in hopes of denying more claims. Then the test strips and lancets themselves are available in at least most states without a prescription. Again, there's no real abuse potential there, but again, there have been insurance lobbyists advocating making these items prescription only.
                This sort of data is routinely observed by at least one other person (the clerk) any time I buy these medications. There are other people, such as my doctor and the pharmacy staff who may sometimes ask me if I'm testing regularly or remind me about proper use of the test kit and meds. But the insurer isn't just some party that presumably has my interests at heart in the general sense, they are an entity which might want to deny a claim if my disease gets worse, by claiming that it's my own fault for not following all the instructions adequately. The insurers are also people who have already lobbied for laws which would make my life a little more difficult. (For example, if I have to get a prescription for test strips and lancets, then I have to contact my doctor if my meter breaks and tell him what type I buy as a replacement before I can start using it.). So, the individual data is not kept particularly private. I'd let my doctor or pharmacist see the meter and page through the log stored on its SD card pretty much on request, and if I have the insurer pay for my meds, they presumably can see what dates I've filled the prescriptions and could track them easily. Yet, there's still problems with the access they already have, and piecing together that data gives them the power to do some things that can be a real pain.Piecing together more data is likely to open up new areas for abuse.
             

      --
      Who is John Cabal?
    38. Re:Scanning versus storage by Fjandr · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Step up when bad cops do bad things and maybe people will respect good cops more. Until then, you can continue to expect this sort of opinion of you profession in general.

      Even if you're an otherwise good cop, unless you're willing to out bad cops you are the problem.

    39. Re:Scanning versus storage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Other than being originally called the "Interstate and Defense system", and being able to accommodate heavy trucking, very little thought was put into facilitating troop movements. Go ask any highway engineer if he's done any calculations to determine how many tanks can cross a bridge, and he will laugh. (Very unlike cold war West Germany which had posted tank routes.)

      Snopes is right here, idiots repeating the "highways funded by the military" legend deserve to be flamed.

    40. Re:Scanning versus storage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are literally claiming that they will issue a warrant for nothing more than driving through an area multiple times

      No he didn't, he claimed that they will use it to establish probable cause based on the pattern of your movements. And he's right.

    41. Re:Scanning versus storage by 6Yankee · · Score: 2

      They claim these will capture "only the license plate, the GPS coordinates and the direction of travel". With no timestamp, how do they intend to know which records are more than two years old? You know they're logging the time there too.

      It's one northbound and one southbound camera at the moment, but add "just" another one and they'll have your location twice and how long you took to cover the distance. Then some bright spark will work out that they can calculate your average speed and - PROFIT!!! Isn't scope creep wonderful?

      (Having driven I-15 last week, not having to take the cruise control off $BIG_NUMBER for pretty much two hours straight, that would have hurt!)

    42. Re:Scanning versus storage by Chrisq · · Score: 1

      People see license plates all the time, but they don't normally stand there logging them for hours each day.

      There are some people who make the geeks in moms basement seem normal by comparison

    43. Re:Scanning versus storage by CodeBuster · · Score: 1

      Who fucking cares?

      The bureaucrats whose budgets depend on it?

    44. Re:Scanning versus storage by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 1

      And I don't necessarily believe the legality of something changes simply because technology can do what humans can't.

      It does change when the original compromise - in this case license plates - was made in a context where such technology not only did not exist, it wasn't even conceivable at the time. Context is everything.

      That argument of scale is the same argument the RIAA makes to differentiate P2P technology and 80s tape-trading.

      That's tangent bait that I will take - the RIAA had just as much of a shit-fit about 80s tape trading as they have had about p2p. The context at the time was that taping was the worst possible thing for the music industry - just for starters they basically neutered DAT and they nearly got themselves a blank tape tax (they did get one in Canada). And then there is the famous quote from Jack Valenti of the MPAA - "I say to you that the VCR is to the American film producer and the American public as the Boston strangler is to the woman home alone." So, any argument that MAFIAA types may make today about how the 80s tape trading wasn't really a threat needs to be seen in context with what they actually said back in the 80s.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    45. Re:Scanning versus storage by registrations_suck · · Score: 2
      Government property IS public property.

      In a similar fashion, "government funded" is "public funded".

      "The government" has no money or anything else. It all belongs to those funding it.

    46. Re:Scanning versus storage by umghhh · · Score: 3, Insightful

      There is no slippery slope fallacy - compare prison populations in US and other developed countries or take China or Cuba if you like and think about the result. If you have law makers and authorities that are so proactive in increasing prison populations and supporting prison industry then it is is indeed worrying if the authorities start having means of controlling everybody everywhere at anytime. There must be limits to that which at the same time allow catching criminals after all they use modern technology too. It must be guaranteed that authorities (or evil FB like companies) cannot abuse the data. So rules must be introduced (OMG communist!!!!) that prevent that. There are indeed cases where police can use help of such data: I think two years ago in Germany there was a guy that (for fun!!!) threw a big piece of wood from the highway bridge killing a woman sitting in a driving car aside of her husband and in front of her kid. They found the guy by looking at positioning data from telecom companies. That was a good use. The bad use must be limited - I suppose limiting use and allowing it only in certain cases is the way to go. I guess authorities will cease majority of senseless actions if they notice they just does not bring anything. Still I guess US is not a country where such development should go about with ease. You are on a slippery slope or maybe you are already far enough. That is not to say that you are on a level of NK but it must worry you if a landlord can be expropriated because his tenant had a joint in his apartment.

    47. Re:Scanning versus storage by zippo01 · · Score: 1

      By reading your post I see you know nothing about law or proper police procedure. A stop or "Terry Stop" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_stop requires reasonable suspension to a trained officer, that a crime is/has or is about to be committed and does not allow for a search of a person without further circumstances such as a weapons frisk "which is not a search", etc. A search warrant requires probable cause http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probable_cause, which is a much higher standard and is the same standard which is required to make an arrest "which is very different than being detained or stopped". Here an officer much show evidence or cause to a judge or magistrate who in turn issues a search/arrest warrant.You really should read up on it, so you know your rights and don't sound like and idiot when you are screaming at the cops.

    48. Re:Scanning versus storage by umghhh · · Score: 1

      Well of course the bad laws are proliferating because the lawyers on all sides love them. We see it with IP laws. I think the privacy issues as well as IP ones seem to boil these days. Successes of Pirate party in Germany is a good sign - it caused rage by some IP rights critics and that is good. Maybe there is way to find out how to apply modern technology in useful but not citizen intimidating way?

    49. Re:Scanning versus storage by sjames · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'm a little concerned about the scanning. I am fine with it if they consider it important enough to station cops to read the numbers off, but I don't want to make it so easy it becomes ubiquitous. The difficulty is more or less an intrinsic test of genuine need.

      Along with the legally recognized expectation of privacy, we have a less recognized expectation of disinterest. Walking down the sidewalk in NY, I have no expectation of privacy, but I do have an expectation of disinterest. That is, I can expect that nobody who sees me really cares and they won't likely remember in 5 minutes..

    50. Re:Scanning versus storage by peragrin · · Score: 1

      The tv show seaquest had them as well. if you were caught speeding instead of paying a fine it was deducted from your social security.

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    51. Re:Scanning versus storage by RabidReindeer · · Score: 0

      So driving interstate now makes me a suspected drug smuggler?

      Why not? Applying for a job makes you a suspected junkie.

      Innocent Until Proven Guilty died when Ronald ("Get the Government off the backs of the People") Reagan instituted the Federal mandate for drug testing.

    52. Re:Scanning versus storage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, but some fighter jets are designed to be able to use a regular asphalt road as a runway (like the JAS 39 Gripen). So there is some grain of truth to it; but even the Gripen will not land on a gravel road, and I suspect only use a packed dirt road in an emergency.
      A cargo plane requires a long runway, but more importantly - wide.

    53. Re:Scanning versus storage by Lumpy · · Score: 2

      I am all for this!

      Because I know that SS will be nothing in a couple of decades and I'll never see it.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    54. Re:Scanning versus storage by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      The answer here is randomly pull over cars, if you find drugs, make the driver smoke all of it.

      no matter the drug, he has to smoke ALL of it.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    55. Re:Scanning versus storage by Lumpy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That will never happen. All cops are dirty. Because the honest cops that don't rat on the dirty ones or demand they are fired are dirty for not doing it.

      What the chief wont listen to you? the press certainly will.

      If you dont turn in your "brothers" then you are as dirty as they are. Thus all cops are dirty.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    56. Re:Scanning versus storage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I would assume there's more to it then just crossing through an area multiple times when you don't live there.

      We have some LPR technology deployed and one of its features is a convey search. Essentially it looks for plates of known drug runners. It then says who is around them. If you deploy LPR over a long distance (say 4 cities have it along a known drug route) and you see the same small convey together multiple times, then you have a pretty strong probable cause that the others are related to the drug traffic.

    57. Re:Scanning versus storage by pegasustonans · · Score: 1

      I-15 through Utah carries something like 60% of the drugs coming out of LA destined for the rest of the country. You might not be familiar with the geography but unless you are willing to drive on 300+ miles of dirt roads I-15 and I-10 are the only reasonable transit corridors out of LA to the rest of the country (unless you wanna drive from LA to Sacramento and come out on I-80). There just aren't that many roads across the Sierra's and as a result I-15 before it reaches I-70 becomes an ideal candidate for scanning and data collection. All you'd need is another camera in Arizona before it reaches Phoenix and you could cover almost 100% of the drug traffic out of southern California.

      The bit about that route through Utah carrying ~60% of the drug traffic out of LA may be true (haven't seen the statistics personally), but it's not because people in LA are limited in how they can move.

      There are plenty of routes out of LA, pretty much all of them crossing relatively flat areas, a few hills and a big desert. The largest obstacle to any commerce is the desert, the big mountains aren't really an issue until you get further north. There are probably hundreds of routes you could take before resorting to a dirt road, not the least of which being I-40 (goes all the way to Wilmington, NC).

      --
      And all our yesterdays have lighted fools The way to dusty death. --Will
    58. Re:Scanning versus storage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who modded this patently false pile of steaming stupidity "interesting"?

      "The public doesn't own government property. "

      Wrong.

      "Government is its own independent entity"

      Wrong. It is simply a group of people.

      "Government property is strictly governments."

      Patently false.

      How the fuck can someone be so totally oblivious as to waste a mod point on this garbage?

    59. Re:Scanning versus storage by Prof.Phreak · · Score: 1

      With enough of these cameras, they could do average speed ticketing fairly easily. E.g. you get from point A to point B that's 20 miles away in 10 minutes...

      --

      "If anything can go wrong, it will." - Murphy

    60. Re:Scanning versus storage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You do realize this is a cat mouse game, Drug Smugglers will start using different Cars/Plates and then the scanners become worthless, you might catch a 10 or 15 of them until they change.

    61. Re:Scanning versus storage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The reason that America has the largest black market in the world is because of the high standard of living + welfare checks. If Africans had more money, they'd be the largest black market in the world.

    62. Re:Scanning versus storage by turkeyfeathers · · Score: 1

      You mean they'd have to smoke an entire package of cigarettes at once? How do you smoke a bottle of whisky? And smoking aspirin may not be good for you.

    63. Re:Scanning versus storage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What about checking to see if the same 2 or more vehicles are regularly scanned within a few miles of each other? Drug runners regularly use lead vehicles to scout for various obstructions/speed traps.

    64. Re:Scanning versus storage by Frobnicator · · Score: 2

      The answer here is randomly pull over cars, if you find drugs, make the driver smoke all of it. No matter the drug, he has to smoke ALL of it.

      I can see the headline now: Canadian Drug Runner's Genitals Explode When Forced to Smoke 1500 Kilos of Viagra.

      --
      //TODO: Think of witty sig statement
    65. Re:Scanning versus storage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm wondering when DEA license plate scanning comes to my area; DEA already has a brand new building near my office.

      Supposedly, I-10 through Tallahassee, FL if a major drug corridor, as drugs arriving in Miami are sent north on I-95, then west on I-10. Every once in a while, the Sheriff's Office in neighboring counties pulls someone over for DWB and finds a large cache of drugs [or cash] in the car.

      This "I-10 drug corridor" thing is also used to explain away why Tallahassee was recently ranked as the 8th most dangerous city in the USA.

    66. Re:Scanning versus storage by Hatta · · Score: 1

      You give them too much credit. Dirty cops aren't just dirty cops, they're criminals.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    67. Re:Scanning versus storage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Plus the pills are hard to keep lit! Crush it up and put it in your Crack pipe officer.

    68. Re:Scanning versus storage by Quila · · Score: 1

      All you'd need is another camera in Arizona before it reaches Phoenix and you could cover almost 100% of the drug traffic out of southern California.

      Then the traffickers will shift to New Mexico and Texas. These are smart businessmen with the proven ability to quickly shift with the landscape.

    69. Re:Scanning versus storage by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      "John Doe, presidential candidate, was seen going to the bad part of town multiple times one week. Now, why would someone that lives in a fancy gated community want to go all the way down there late at night?"

      And that's when making this information public will become illegal. Just like you need a warrant to check someone's Video rental record.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    70. Re:Scanning versus storage by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Except you know, when good cops actually DO turn in bad cops. Which does happen. Just because you're so biased that you can't see it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    71. Re:Scanning versus storage by himurabattousai · · Score: 1

      Mostly correct. The system was originally titled "National System of Interstate Highways." When it was conceived and passed into law (in 1956), the primary focus was on civilian movement and trucking. The words "and Defense" were added to take advantage of Cold War mania.

      The Department of Defense, however, has had a great deal of input into construction standards for the highways, specifically with regards to minimum overhead clearance. Original standards for things like overpasses was set to fourteen feet, but the military wanted a higher clearance to allow for heavy equipment transport. Today, the minimum clearance is sixteen feet, and the DoD is a part of any reconstruction project that involves raising old bridges to meet the current standard.

      Also, if you've ever wondered why Interstates are mostly below-grade, the potential for military equipment transport is part of the reason why. The other is that it's far cheaper to build a two-lane bridge than a six-lane one.

      --
      "osake no hou ga, biiru yori ii" to omotteiru.
    72. Re:Scanning versus storage by chihowa · · Score: 2

      The tv show seaquest had them as well. if you were caught speeding instead of paying a fine it was deducted from your social security.

      I know you're just talking about a tv show, but that's one of the most horrible solutions I can think of. Just like student loans, a fine against your future self wouldn't feel like a punishment at all (to many people). Without social security, the elderly would turn to violent street crime and we'd have roving gangs of geriatric thugs.

      As it is, with SS running out before our generation retires, the future is looking more like Mad Max, refilmed now with the original cast.

      --
      If you want a vision of the future, imagine a youtube comments section scrolling - forever.
    73. Re:Scanning versus storage by Culture20 · · Score: 1

      Maybe it's a bit of a slippery slope fallacy.

      The best way to stop future abuses is to imagine slippery slopes.

    74. Re:Scanning versus storage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think you were being sarcastic, but the more I read your comment, the more frightened I become...I think you are closer to the truth than we want to believe...

    75. Re:Scanning versus storage by Culture20 · · Score: 1

      All of those are supposedly triggered by detected infractions. This type is running in a while(true) loop. You don't see a difference?

    76. Re:Scanning versus storage by i286NiNJA · · Score: 1

      Why is it I object to everything you say? When Harold Nelthrope submitted a report to internal affairs indicating all was not right with detroits EPU he was told "That's the stupidest fucking thing I've ever heard" and then the incident proceeded to ruin his life and he's since had to move out of state and work at a new department. He eventually did make enough noise for someone to look into it, the problems with the EPU went all the way to the mayor who was booted out. But you're right cops are busting each other left and right and it's our unnamed biases that keep us blind to this fact.

    77. Re:Scanning versus storage by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Why is it I object to everything you say?

      It hurts when facts conflict with your preconceived biases, I'm sorry you have to suffer that pain, man.

      I don't know if you realize this, but you have presented a case where some cops are corrupt, and seem to assume it means all cops are corrupt. This is a logical fallacy. You can spend all day telling me stories about corrupt cops, and it will prove nothing, because it is anecdotal evidence.

      Clearly there are cops who turn in other corrupt cops. This is reality. I hope you can fix your cognitive biases enough to realize that. You'll become wiser for it.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    78. Re:Scanning versus storage by operagost · · Score: 1

      tea party like nazis

      Has the internet gotten so bad that Nazis are being compared unfavorably with the Tea Party?

      Here's a hint, in case you aren't just a belligerent troll: the Tea Party in the USA is against increasing government power and control. I know it's fun to just call everyone you disagree with a fascist, but it's something you should have grown out of just like we all stopped calling everything we didn't like "gay" when we were in grade school.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    79. Re:Scanning versus storage by Fnord666 · · Score: 1

      I haven't heard all that much about profiling from them.

      Just because you haven't heard about it does not mean that it isn't happening.

      --
      'The tyrant will always find pretext for his tyranny.' - Aesop's Fables
    80. Re:Scanning versus storage by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      The tv show seaquest had them as well. if you were caught speeding instead of paying a fine it was deducted from your social security.

      I know you're just talking about a tv show, but that's one of the most horrible solutions I can think of. Just like student loans, a fine against your future self wouldn't feel like a punishment at all (to many people).

      Not to mention, in a lot of places it's illegal to ticket an inanimate object. The city I live in had to turn off their red-light cameras after losing in the state Supreme Court over that very issue.

      Amazingly, some automobiles actually have multiple drivers.

      Without social security, the elderly would turn to violent street crime and we'd have roving gangs of geriatric thugs.

      ... I know you're trying to make a point about how awful it would be to penalize SS for traffic violations, but, well, damn if that doesn't sound like it would make things interesting...

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    81. Re:Scanning versus storage by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      The reason that America has the largest black market in the world is because of the high standard of living + welfare checks. If Africans had more money, they'd be the largest black market in the world.

      This is one of those posts that makes you laugh, and then makes you feel bad because you laughed...

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    82. Re:Scanning versus storage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      [Citation Needed]

    83. Re:Scanning versus storage by Culture20 · · Score: 1

      Expectation of disinterest? I see lawsuits against whistling construction workers.

    84. Re:Scanning versus storage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm not buying what you're selling. Show some references.

    85. Re:Scanning versus storage by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      Except you know, when good cops actually DO turn in bad cops. Which does happen. Just because you're so biased that you can't see it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

      {citation needed]

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    86. Re:Scanning versus storage by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      What about checking to see if the same 2 or more vehicles are regularly scanned within a few miles of each other? Drug runners regularly use lead vehicles to scout for various obstructions/speed traps.

      Yea, because it's completely inconceivable that multiple different vehicles will travel down the same stretches of interstate highway within a given period of time...

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    87. Re:Scanning versus storage by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Check it. Sometimes I really wonder how dumb paranoid people like you are. Do you REALLY believe that every single cop in the world is corrupt, and that no cop ever reports another corrupt cop?

      And then on top of that, you can't be bothered to do basic research? Like, does it bother you to be that clueless?

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    88. Re:Scanning versus storage by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      With enough of these cameras, they could do average speed ticketing fairly easily. E.g. you get from point A to point B that's 20 miles away in 10 minutes...

      You seem to be under the impression that the person a license plate is registered to is always the person driving the automobile that said license plate is attached to.

      Fatal flaw in your premise: I occasionally drive my wife's car.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    89. Re:Scanning versus storage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The public is merely the board of directors for government that gives direction on how government may proceed.

      No, we're the share holders. We elect the board (congress, president, etc). The government is like a corporation. The people working in it (aka the government) don't own the company. I'm not sure what you think a government is, but most people know it's a group of people.

    90. Re:Scanning versus storage by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      Check it.

      So, in other words, you can't provide a citation to prove your claim that cops turn each other in for criminal behavior? Somehow, judging from the rest of your response, I'm far from surprised.

      Sometimes I really wonder how dumb paranoid people like you are.

      Smart enough to not make blanket generalizations and statements I can't back up, which translates to 'obviously smarter than you.'

      Do you REALLY believe that every single cop in the world is corrupt, and that no cop ever reports another corrupt cop?

      Not necessarily; then again, I'm not the one making specious claims without having the wherewithal to back them up.

      And then on top of that, you can't be bothered to do basic research?

      You made the claim, you need to provide the reference, asshat. I assume you never went to college? I pray not, otherwise I would have to wonder how you managed to survive without understanding the concept of bibliography.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    91. Re:Scanning versus storage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm sure it's only a glitch - a temporary set-back.

    92. Re:Scanning versus storage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I predict EMP "weapons" becoming more and more frequent in this case. "Oh, your electronics didn't record all this stuff and went out? Gosh, that's too bad."

      How long until people start rebelling?

    93. Re:Scanning versus storage by Dripdry · · Score: 1

      Bullshit. They'll just pay to have it suppressed when the police department comes to them and says,"Hey, guess what info we've got? Pay up/give us favors."

      This will only be illegal against those who don't have enough money/connections.

      --
      -
    94. Re:Scanning versus storage by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      Eisenhower, a WWII general, was the one who instituted the insterstate highway sytem, which was modeled after Hitler's autobahn. Eisenhower saw that the autobahn made Germany stronger, both militarily and economically.

      The other is that it's far cheaper to build a two-lane bridge than a six-lane one.

      I was a four in 1956, and even by the time I started driving there was NO TRAFFIC WHATEVER compared to today. They didn't need more than four lanes. Now? Highway 157 in Caholia was two lanes when I started driving, and it didn't need more than two. Today it's 4 lanes and horribly congested.

    95. Re:Scanning versus storage by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      I know that SS will be nothing in a couple of decades and I'll never see it.

      It only looks that way because of my generation. We're the "pig in the python." When we die out and it's your turn to collect, it will be solvent.

    96. Re:Scanning versus storage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They want this so that if they stop you and you have any cash they can make the case for seizing it because you drive the road too often for it to be legit

      Not necessarily. They might also want this so that if they stop you and you have any cash they can make the case for seizing it because you drive the road so infrequently that you must be a freshly-reruited drug runner.

      Reminds me of an old joke. "How do you tell the civilians from the enemy?" "Shoot at 'em. If they run, they're the enemy. If they stand still, they're well-trained enemies."

      It was funny when we were the guys with the guns and the Viet Cong were the people we were usually shooting at.

    97. Re:Scanning versus storage by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Sure, that worked so well for Eliot Spitzer.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    98. Re:Scanning versus storage by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      I'm not your research monkey. If you can't do simple, obvious research, that is easily available on the internet, then you're hopelessly dumb.

      How lost in the conspiracy theory are you?

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    99. Re:Scanning versus storage by BlueStrat · · Score: 1

      I'm sure it's only a glitch - a temporary set-back.

      Not so "temporary" for Mr. Kinney, unfortunately. :)

      Strat

      --
      Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
    100. Re:Scanning versus storage by swalve · · Score: 1

      There is a difference between collective ownership and private ownership. Government would never have been invented if people were capable of behaving and respecting the common.

    101. Re:Scanning versus storage by swalve · · Score: 1

      There was 100 million less people in the US in 1968 than there is now. There are something like 3 BILLION more people on the planet since then.

    102. Re:Scanning versus storage by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      Well, of course. That's the biggest reason for all the traffic today, plus backl then most families had a single car, now two is the norm and three isn't unusual.

    103. Re:Scanning versus storage by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      I'm not your research monkey.

      Not your own either, obviously. You make a claim with no evidence to support it, then expect your audience to do your research for you?

      Fuck that, I'll just assume you're full of shit, since you can't or won't prove you're not.

      If you can't do simple, obvious research, that is easily available on the internet, then you're hopelessly dumb. How lost in the conspiracy theory are you?

      Amazing that you can infer so much about a person from a simple request for citation... You're either a clairvoyant, or an ignorant, egotistical asshole incapable of reason and cogent thought. Which could it be? I'll give you a hint - there's no such thing as clairvoyance.

      Since you have failed, repeatedly, to back your claim that good cops turn in bad cops for illegal behavior, I assume that to mean there is no evidence of such.

      This "conversation" is over.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    104. Re:Scanning versus storage by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Amazing that you can infer so much about a person from a simple request for citation...

      Clearly not. I'm inferring it from your ignorance of easily accessible facts. I look at you as one of the people on the short bus, not as someone on an equal intellectual level. You're kind of dumb.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    105. Re:Scanning versus storage by cusco · · Score: 1

      Doesn't matter. The red light camera cases have established that the owner of the car is responsible for the conduct of whoever they loan the car to. This is just an extension of the court cases that allowed the owner of a gun be charged as an accomplice in a crime where the gun was used.

      --
      "Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
    106. Re:Scanning versus storage by i286NiNJA · · Score: 1

      You sound like the kind of guy who reads a bunch of philosophy because you want to be right more often yet YOU don't ever change your thinking along the way. I can also count my own interactions with the police which are overwhelmingly negative, illegal searches, bully tactics, etc. I am wearing a blazer and have a military regulation crew cut. I as unsuspicious as they come. Other than the fact because they exist they may possibly prevent some crimes from ever happening to me, they have never once helped me in any other way, especially when I needed them. Also I know many cops and they generally tell me that there are no shortage of fuckbags where they work. My LAWYER used to be a prosecutor and has told me that she used to do ride-alongs and noted massive differences between what she observed and what was on the police report. Even to the point where she couldn't tell you which police report went with which incident. Not to mention all the shit I hear from friends about the time the police broke the law with them. The best two interactions I've had with the police in the past 10 years were once when a guy gave me a stern lecture and let me off with a minor ticket for speeding (I don't speed anymore as a result), and once when I got a headlight out and the cop was tired looking and obviously just wanted to give me my ticket and head out. Please tell me about whistleblower cops cause I want to hear. Go ahead and google it and you'll clearly see that the few cops who do blow the whistle are met with overwhelming backlash by their peers. Blow the whistle and you pretty much have to sue whatever government entity you work for (because you might be unemployable afterward) and move out of state. This isn't isolated. So I at least have some anecdotes and have done a google. YOU on the other hand have proven NOTHING and tried to use a bunch of assburger philosophy to make yourself right (the irony). I should also mention that after the military (We treated smugglers better than cops have treated me, probably because someone powerful cares if we treat someone like shit and create an international incident) I entertained the idea of being a cop but when I told one of my friends on the force about it he laughed and told me good fucking luck and resigned himself a few weeks later.

    107. Re:Scanning versus storage by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      You have personality issues. Deal with your anger problems, and your police problems will go away.

      Also, learn how to paragraph.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    108. Re:Scanning versus storage by Fjandr · · Score: 1

      Most of the low-hanging fruit on cops exposing corruption regards police in countries other than the US or police who have, in fact, had their careers and/or lives ruined as a result of their whistleblowing.

      The fact is, cops who risk ruining their careers and/or lives are a tiny minority. Finding good examples is not easy. It's a search for a needle in a haystack. So while I technically agree when you disagree with the statement that all cops are corrupt, it is only that: a technicality. The things which are easy to find are almost universally gross outliers in a sea of "doesn't happen like that in real life."

    109. Re:Scanning versus storage by niftymitch · · Score: 1

      I'm a resident of Utah. The DEA has been talking about stuff like this literally since the technology came about. I'm not surprised they are trying to get the Legislature to authorize it, they just had to get a county to buy in on it. But I am surprised it took them this long to find a county willing. Frankly the counties do a LOT of seizures and probably make a tidy profit on it but these cameras are going to make the DEA more interested in letting people pass so they can track them later so that's probably why it took this long to get ........
      There just aren't that many roads across the Sierra's and as a result I-15 before it reaches I-70 becomes an ideal candidate for scanning and data collection. All you'd need is another camera in Arizona before it reaches Phoenix and you could cover almost 100% of the drug traffic out of southern California.

      As I said, there's been articles every few months in the local papers talking about it for the last couple decades with a big focus on tracking repeat users of the highway the last few years. As soon as I saw the report it wasn't hard to put it together.

      But, but, but...how does this really work.

      If you have a list of tag numbers you scan only them and discard all the other vehicle tag data at the get go.

      If you do not have a list of suspect tag ID's then it involves massive survelience of the population that is likely 99.99% not involved in drug trafficking. Especially so if the issue is interstate commerce involving drugs.

      I do suspect that there is some data mining scheme [il]logic here where someone believes this data could be mined for suspects. However the logic may be very wrong... Cats are furry mammals thus all fury mammals are cats. The same analysis that puts all the drug traffic on this highway also puts all vehicular commerce to and from So. Cal on the same road.

      So like a wiretap a "target" needs to be identified and a warrant processed for this to be other than a fishing machine.

      Much the same problem exists with real fishing. Whales, turtles, proposes are caught and killed in great numbers by commercial fishing methods. If I believe the Greenpeace kid 40% of the animals caught and killed are tossed back.
      The number of false accusations and the legal fall out from them could bankrupt the state and countiy legal system.

      Storage for two years is idiotic because a single court case would cause the data to be retained for the court case and any appeal involved. This could stretch out to twenty or more years. This is just the drug cases. The data would be of interest for civil cases, divorce. It may also be forced to be retained in any challenge to the existence of the data itself (catch 22ish).

      --
      Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't. Mark Twain.
    110. Re:Scanning versus storage by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      Doesn't matter.

      Where I live, it very much does - the state Supreme Court, just last year, handed down a ruling that a traffic violation is tied to the person who committed it, not the vehicle it was committed in, and thus pretty much invalidated most if not all red light cameras in the state. Makes sense, since inanimate objects are, by definition, incapable of criminal activity of their own volition. Not to mention the due process violations that occur with mailing citations to property owners.

      If you live someplace where the law believes your stuff can commit crimes (and thus, blame you because it's your stuff), that really sucks for you. I mean that honestly, no /sarc intended.

      The red light camera cases have established that the owner of the car is responsible for the conduct of whoever they loan the car to. This is just an extension of the court cases that allowed the owner of a gun be charged as an accomplice in a crime where the gun was used.

      So, if someone steals your car/gun, and uses it to commit a crime, you get punished too? That's bullshit, man.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    111. Re:Scanning versus storage by cusco · · Score: 1

      No, if it's stolen it's considered to be 'out of your control'. If you loan your gun to your buddy and he uses it to kill his girlfriend the court can assign a certain percentage of the blame to you, depending on how aware you were (or at least how aware they think you were) of its prospective usage.

      That's just criminal court, though. In civil court there is no end of the absurdities possible. If I remember correctly the grandfather of the Columbine shooters was successfully sued by parents of the dead kids. Dylan and Klebold stole the guns from his house, but these idiots decided that he should have somehow made them entirely inaccessible so he was partly at fault. I tend to blame that sort of foolishness on there being too many lawyers in the world.

      --
      "Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
    112. Re:Scanning versus storage by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      A lot of people seem to have come to the conclusion that most cops are corrupt, therefore the cops who don't expose them are also corrupt. This of course begs the question. Where are people getting the idea that most cops are corrupt?

      In reality, when a corrupt cop gets exposed, most of the time it doesn't make the news in a big way. So it's not surprising that those people who are only looking for corruption, only find that.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    113. Re:Scanning versus storage by Fjandr · · Score: 1

      Most of it is anecdotal, because it is very difficult to get public access to the inside disciplinary and investigatory process for corruption in most cases. Police guilds fight transparency very hard, at least in every place I've ever lived. It is currently happening in the city I now live in, as the result of a number of recent police killings, one of which required the intervention of Federal prosecutors because the city attorney involved in the investigation materially obstructed the release of video which ended up sending an officer to prison.

      In reality, when a corrupt cop gets exposed, most of the time it doesn't make the news in a big way. So it's not surprising that those people who are only looking for corruption, only find that.

      If this is true, it doesn't help your assertion that Google is an easy method for discovering cases of corruption being exposed by police officers who become aware of it. Again, I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but arguing with someone for using over-expansive language should involve not doing such things yourself if you wish to appear consistent.

      Of course you'll find corruption if you're looking for corruption. It'll happen whether you're pro-police only looking for cases where a cop turned in another cop and the good guys won, or anti-police looking for cases where cops covered up malfeasance within their (or another's) department, or neutral and looking for all cases without regard to who uncovered it and how the situation turned out.

    114. Re:Scanning versus storage by randyleepublic · · Score: 1

      Wow, a lot of hate there for a relatively innocuous remark. Did you have issues with kids teasing you for being stupid?

      Anyway, what you cops fail to realize is that you are just as much victims of an out of control government as the rest of us. People hate you for enforcing arbitrary and unjust laws designed solely to feed the prison-industrial complex. That makes your lives miserable and your jobs unrewarding. Instead of getting universal respect for your bravery in being the front line against violent psychopaths, you are hated.

      The sad part is that if you and your brother cops took a stand against stupid laws, you would be listened to. The public would respond and demand changes, but you don't raise your voices. Your union leadership panders to the management class of law enforcement, and sells you out.

      Or... Or, maybe I am a naive chump, and you guys are just a bunch of passive-agressive sadists in uniform. Which is it? Your call...

      --
      Social Credit would solve everything...
    115. Re:Scanning versus storage by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Most of it is anecdotal,

      Indeed, which is why it is so stupid to say such absolute statements as the GGP was making, when he clearly is lacking data.

      If this is true, it doesn't help your assertion that Google is an easy method for discovering cases of corruption being exposed by police officers who become aware of it

      No, it's the difference between making it on the front page and page A10. The A10 stuff is harder to find, but it is still there if you're willing to dig that deep. Of course some never make the news at all, the cop responsible is merely dismissed. Boring. Furthermore there are indexes that measure things like corruption. Sure, the methodology is flawed, but do you think it is absolutely completely wrong? Probably not.

      It is currently happening in the city I now live in, as the result of a number of recent police killings, one of which required the intervention of Federal prosecutors

      I'm sorry you have to live in a town that has such problems. It's good we have mechanisms to deal with that, and they are actually working.

      A lot of people, probably not you, jump to the conclusion that if a cop does something they don't like, it is corruption. No, those people just have strange definitions of corruption.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    116. Re:Scanning versus storage by Fjandr · · Score: 1

      Indeed, which is why it is so stupid to say such absolute statements

      Addressed and agreed explicitly. However, anecdotes don't mean you lack data, just that you lack it in sufficient form to prove to another person. Personal experiences can be a perfectly valid reason for distrusting a department, or segment thereof. While it doesn't excuse making sweeping generalizations as fact, they can certainly give you a reasonable basis for strong feelings (which many people then communicate poorly).

      The A10 stuff is harder to find, but it is still there if you're willing to dig that deep.

      Quite true, but that quickly surpasses "basic research on Google," which was what that part of my comment was directed at. It's not a quick study to find more than one or two cases falling outside the categories I outlined. In the digital age, if you're looking for those minority cases it might be more like it's buried on page A10000.

      As for corruption claims, no, I tend to stick with the incidents which have actual, tangible proof, or those which have very substantial bodies of circumstantial evidence. I do know there are people who support the position based on little more than a general dislike of the police, but it is not a position without merit in many cases.

      I'm sorry you have to live in a town that has such problems.

      On the one hand I am too, but on the other it's resulted in the removal of the mayor, the city attorney, an associate city attorney, and the creation of an independent police ombudsman's office (though the Police Guild sued to prevent the office from having any investigatory powers, thus neutering it until they renegotiate their employment contracts). Of course, that's counterbalanced by the response from the City Police as previously-mentioned officer was escorted from court after being convicted of civil rights violations and obstruction of justice for beating a man and then lying about it: a public salute by 30-some-odd uniformed officers. This, of course, happened in plain view of the family of the man this officer killed. It was also after video came to light which resulted in him confessing to lying to investigators, so it's not like they could reasonably claim to believe he was innocent.

      Mostly my point in posting was that there's very frequently good reason why people do not have faith in the police. The onus is on police to earn respect, rather than expecting it as a matter of course. It's par for the course to see hyperbole and absolute statements in comments about police corruption, and while that may lessen the impact of the statements it doesn't really lessen the fact that there is often a very valid basis for the perceptions which engender those comments.

    117. Re:Scanning versus storage by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      On the one hand I am too, but on the other it's resulted in the removal of the mayor, the city attorney, an associate city attorney, and the creation of an independent police ombudsman's office (though the Police Guild sued to prevent the office from having any investigatory powers, thus neutering it until they renegotiate their employment contracts). Of course, that's counterbalanced by the response from the City Police as previously-mentioned officer was escorted from court after being convicted of civil rights violations and obstruction of justice for beating a man and then lying about it: a public salute by 30-some-odd uniformed officers. This, of course, happened in plain view of the family of the man this officer killed. It was also after video came to light which resulted in him confessing to lying to investigators, so it's not like they could reasonably claim to believe he was innocent.

      That's horrible. Glad your town managed to fix it.

      It's par for the course to see hyperbole and absolute statements in comments about police corruption

      The problem is some people actually believe that hyperbole. Here on Slashdot, we try to help people learn to be logical and live to a higher standard. Being angry is sometimes justified, but it doesn't justify being idiotic.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    118. Re:Scanning versus storage by Fjandr · · Score: 1

      Here on Slashdot, we try to help people learn to be logical and live to a higher standard.

      Sadly, even on Slashdot that "we" seems to be nearly as small a minority as it is elsewhere.

  3. Re:Mormons Politicizing Religious Goals by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    > "America is controlled by Mormons"

    No, silly! Everyone knows that America is controlled by corporations.

  4. Well...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I mean... License plates are state-issued, or can come from a state in a different country (in this case, mostly Mexico or Canada). I do not believe I would be so far off to say that this is fine. There's already things such as the TxTag and Tolltag in the state of Texas. That not only senses your RFID sticker on your windshield, but also takes a picture of your license plate.

    The two-year storage seems to be what is at issue here. Who will have access to it and how secure is that database?

  5. Change of Scope by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Vehicle license plates exist as a means for police to identify a car when the need arises. Now we have automated systems that are capable of identifying EVERY car, and the police want to deploy these systems. This will result in millions of car license plate database searches on law abiding citizens with no probable cause. In addition, the police will record the time and place where each vehicle was spotted to develop a search-able intelligence database. They can perform queries on the database to identify frequent travellers, and harass them when their suspicions are aroused. Many police agencies are already doing this and it needs to stop.

    1. Re:Change of Scope by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Slashdot on government: "Identifying the vehicles of law-abiding citizens out in public? How dare they! Why, they might even construct cross-referencing databases. Where do I write my Congressman?"

      Slashdot on Google: "Track my every move online? Eh, whatever. I willingly let Google index all my email, voice mail, web history, search history, purchase history, and even have no issue with them scanning my passwords on my mother's unencrypted WiFi to construct the world's largest information network. Anyone criticizing Google is just a troll."

    2. Re:Change of Scope by Bob+the+Super+Hamste · · Score: 1

      This is why I am seriously starting to consider rigging up some very high power IR LEDs. From what I have been reading most of these new automated license plate readers are designed to work in the IR range, which is why a lot of states' license plates are being redesigned. I am not sure what would be better, illuminating the plate so it is overexposed or illuminating some other part so it under exposes the plate. Either way I think it would be best to pump out enough power to leave a permanent ghost image in the sensor. It is not like it would be that much of an additional load since a most car alternators are capable of putting out 80+ amps at 12 volts so 100W from IR LEDs wouldn't even be noticed. This is less power than having the high beams on in your car as those by law can draw up to 55W each and are designed as such. From previous suggestions it may be better to force the camera to underexpose the plate as you could legitimately state the you were not obscuring your plate like you would be if you over illuminated it.

      --
      Time to offend someone
    3. Re:Change of Scope by RobertLTux · · Score: 1

      Not a Good idea since that could have you the target of a APB with the instructions to deliver directly to Lockup (terrorism charges).

      have whatever "cute" stickers on your car you want but DO NOT TAMPER with your plate or the area around it.

      --
      Any person using FTFY or editing my postings agrees to a US$50.00 charge
  6. State vs. Federal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    State Departments of Transportation's already have this information available, do they not? It may vary from state to state slightly, but for the most part it's there. Does the DEA not have access to State vehicle registration information, or is this solely a need for at will, at moment, field identification?

    Sounds like just another power push to a 'Big Government' , when the infrastructure and legalese is already in place. That and the DEA is fairly useless for its intended purpose. I fail to see how giving the DEA this authority, gets less drugs stopped at the border or causes politicians to either re-evaluation drug scheduling, or current criminilization status'.

    Hooray for continued failed policy-making!!!

  7. Sorry Utah! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Sorry Utah, but I think I will bypass your state from now on (if you allow this). All we need is more "Big Brother" surveillance of innocent people who may want to keep their whereabouts private, and for perfectly legitimate (and legal) reasons! Tracking plates on the US/Mexico border is only slightly less onerous, but hundreds of miles away from the immediate border area? That's simply frightful! FWIW, I was once the subject of a Mafia "contract". Needless to say, having my whereabouts known, and for no good reason, and that can be suborned by those whose interests are inimical to mine, is not something I would like to have happen... :-(

    1. Re:Sorry Utah! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Utah, isn't that one of those nearly empty states with nothing but desert and trailers?

  8. Re:Mormons Politicizing Religious Goals by Voogru · · Score: 4, Funny

    The corporations control the government. We should consider giving the government more power...to fix this... somehow.

  9. If you're not a drug runner you have... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Well if you're not a drug runner, then you have nothing to hide. Ergo since you have something to hide you must be a drug runner, so lets do away with the surveillance and arrest you already. Because the surveillance already bypasses your privacy rights ON THE BASIS THAT YOU ARE LIKELY A DRUG RUNNER.

    Treat everyone like criminals and you reduced the benefit of not being a criminal. If you make the whole country like a jail, then freedom is reduced with it.

    ---
    If a banker lends an entrepreneur money, is the banker creating the jobs, or is the entrepreneur? If the banker made less money wouldn't the entrepreneur be able to create more jobs? So why is Mitt Romney claiming to be a job creator and not a money lender?

  10. Cut to the chase by Okian+Warrior · · Score: 5, Insightful

    How will this turn out? Let's see.

    Eenie meenie, chili beanie...

    1) DEA installs license plate scanners.
    2) Police stop vehicles which fit the profile of drug smuggling.
    3) Years pass. Many, many innocent people's rights are violated
    4) Police find drugs in some stopped car, arrests are made.
    5) Plaintiffs complain that police had no right to stop car based on profile
    6) ACLU gets involved. Appeal goes to federal court.
    7) Federal court overturns conviction on grounds that there was no probable cause (or not - this is Utah, after all)
    8) Case is presented to supreme court. Supreme court upholds 4th amendment, license scanning is not probable cause.

    End result: Many innocent people have their rights violated, some arrests are made. About a million dollars are spent on one case to bring it to the supreme court, ten years of some person's life is lost fighting it, and eventually the DEA is told to stop. During this time, drug smuggling is reduced by less than one part in a million. Millions of dollars spent on the system are wasted when the system is dismantled.

    For once, can we please just cut to the chase? Just stop these idiots from the beginning and a whole lot of people will save a whole lot of effort, money, time, and grief.

    1. Re:Cut to the chase by paiute · · Score: 4, Funny

      How will this turn out? Let's see.

      End result: Many innocent people have their rights violated, some arrests are made. About a million dollars are spent on one case to bring it to the supreme court, ten years of some person's life is lost fighting it, and eventually the DEA is told to stop. During this time, drug smuggling is reduced by less than one part in a million. Millions of dollars spent on the system are wasted when the system is dismantled.

      Spending a million dollars is worth it if it prevents just one child's life from being destroyed by a marijuana joint.

      --
      If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
    2. Re:Cut to the chase by El+Torico · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Spending a million dollars is worth it if it prevents just one child's life from being destroyed by a marijuana joint as long as that money is spent on my agency or company.

      There, I fixed it for you.

      --
      In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is usually crucified.
    3. Re:Cut to the chase by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Supreme court upholds 4th amendment,

      I damn near fell out of my chair laughing at that part.

    4. Re:Cut to the chase by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But spending that million on the child's education is wasteful government spending, right?

    5. Re:Cut to the chase by CodeBuster · · Score: 4, Insightful

      For once, can we please just cut to the chase? Just stop these idiots from the beginning and a whole lot of people will save a whole lot of effort, money, time, and grief.

      Yes, but then what would all those DEA people do for a living? Besides, the bureaucrats and private prison operators have budgets and contracts to protect. The "War on Drugs" is big business after all, and not just for the cartels. It would all be funny, in a farcical sort of way, if the real life consequences weren't so deadly serious.

    6. Re:Cut to the chase by potat0man · · Score: 1

      How about we really cut to the chase and end the drug war completely? It is the biggest excuse for violating the 4th amendment that the government has. Get rid of the drug war and police will have next to no reasons to search random cars, to bust down doors and trespass into people's private homes, or to stop random black kids in the hopes of ruining their future. It's senseless, and this is just one permutation of it.

    7. Re:Cut to the chase by CarbonShell · · Score: 1

      One thing people always forget is that such systems cost money to install and operate.

      Today the DEA wants to use it against drug trafficking. But let's be realistic, they won't catch many (criminals are not idiots), but the system will continue to cost money. So they extend the goal to include other crimes as well. Perhaps even mistermeaners. All just to justify the costs. And to fight crime o/c.

      This is basically the chicken-egg problem that will wind up costing a lot of money but only bring little actual value.
      Except to the people selling and/or running such systems.

      You can look to the UK to see how great it works. Instead of catching the bombers, they use it to catch people littering or urinating/humping in corners.

    8. Re:Cut to the chase by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, that would be wasteful government spending because most kids today are stoned all the time and thus don't benefit from education.

    9. Re:Cut to the chase by usuallylost · · Score: 1

      Your end result assumes the courts do the right thing. Which isn't necessarily a safe assumption. The courts do not have a very good record with the fourth amendment.

      You should also add a #9 they still continue to gather the information no matter what the court says about its use. The big problem with these monitoring schemes is once the people in power get hold of the information they realize they can combine it with other information and learn all manner of things. That is a big part of why these databases never go away once created.

      I find this trend of putting cameras and various monitoring systems everywhere rather disturbing. As far as I have been able to read these things don't really deter crime. Yet we are putting them in all over the country in the name of crime prevention. I am really starting to wonder if Orwell was just a few decades off in his time estimate

    10. Re:Cut to the chase by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How will this turn out? Let's see.

      Eenie meenie, chili beanie...

      1) DEA installs license plate scanners.
      2) Police stop vehicles which fit the profile of drug smuggling.
      3) Years pass. Many, many innocent people's rights are violated
      4) Police find drugs in some stopped car, arrests are made.
      5) Plaintiffs complain that police had no right to stop car based on profile
      6) ACLU gets involved. Appeal goes to federal court.
      7) Federal court overturns conviction on grounds that there was no probable cause (or not - this is Utah, after all)
      8) Case is presented to supreme court. Supreme court upholds 4th amendment, license scanning is not probable cause.

      End result: Many innocent people have their rights violated, some arrests are made. About a million dollars are spent on one case to bring it to the supreme court, ten years of some person's life is lost fighting it, and eventually the DEA is told to stop. During this time, drug smuggling is reduced by less than one part in a million. Millions of dollars spent on the system are wasted when the system is dismantled.

      For once, can we please just cut to the chase? Just stop these idiots from the beginning and a whole lot of people will save a whole lot of effort, money, time, and grief.

      9) A constitutional amendment is passed to modify the 4th amendment to allow the data collection to proceed.

    11. Re:Cut to the chase by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If I am looking for a house to rob. It would be cool to mine the list to find someone who goes across the desert every friday.

  11. Over in the Netherlands... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    ... they have a bunch of those things (though the UK has more and more extensive storage, of course), and it turns out (very recently in the news) the data is Just Too Much to act upon when it signals wanted criminals passing the scanners. They're claiming they Just Don't Have The Manpower available to go after all that real-time data. One wonders how they then can possibly find the time to look in the backlog, which contains much, much more data, overwhelmingly pertaining to people who've done exactly nothing wrong. Curiously, they suddenly do have plenty manpower to pursue unpaid fines and taxes.

  12. Ballot Box, Soap Box, Ammo Box by l0ungeb0y · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Ahh yes, the ardent American Citizen, sitting there able to do nothing while the value of his shitty little Dollar drops year after year, his bankers and his own Government are blatantly and openly lying and stealing from him and doing and end run around his precious Constitutional Rights with Wars on Ideas -- and he clings to his gun saying "I can at least defend myself from them if it gets to that" -- ignoring the fact that his Government has enough weaponry to quickly turn any Popular Revolt with their tiny pea shooters into a grease stain in short order -- and even then, every Congressional session has new talk of attempts to enact laws to outlaw or further restrict ownership of peashooters -- just be on the safe side, it is after all best not to take risks.

    What will it take for the Ardent American to use his precious armaments? Government Cameras up his ass? Face it -- you are a slave. Go to school, pass your exams, indenture yourself to a College, get a job, be useful, be productive, consume and create more consumers to replace you.

    Your rights, your guns, your "freedom" -- are little more than a novelty meant to humor you.
    More wars on American Citizens have been enacted in the last 30 years than wars against enemy nations.

    1. Re:Ballot Box, Soap Box, Ammo Box by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      "If I’m afraid to stand because I might lose something, or I’m afraid to go to jail, I’ve already lost, and I’m already in prison."

    2. Re:Ballot Box, Soap Box, Ammo Box by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      More wars on American Citizens have been enacted in the last 30 years than wars against enemy nations.

      That may be so, but that's not where the most people actually die of American government-sanctioned violence. Take a look, just as an example, at the death toll the "war on drugs" the Mexican government is waging, resulting in massive civilian bloodshed because the narcs have no incentive left not to and every incentive to just get rid of possible nuisances, on instigation of... the DEA.

      That tendency to focus too much on your own little problems (and not solving them in the least) while at the same time meddling in the global game (and making it mostly worse), is a major reason the rest of the world is growing tired with America[tm]. I for one wouldn't mind the provincialism so much if it came without the global meddling. Or the global meddling if it came without the provincialism.

    3. Re:Ballot Box, Soap Box, Ammo Box by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Four boxes, not three.
      Soap, ballot, jury, ammo; use in that order.

    4. Re:Ballot Box, Soap Box, Ammo Box by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Four boxes, not three.
      Soap, ballot, jury, ammo; use in that order.

      Like most gun nuts, he's in a hurry to start busting caps. Justice for Trayvon!

    5. Re:Ballot Box, Soap Box, Ammo Box by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nut up and take some responsibility. Now it's the DEA's fault that Mexico is a land of thugs and criminals? What about centuries of graft and immoral lifestyles? Just like the Israelis and Palestinians can both go fuck themselves, I'm perfectly content if the Sinaloa and the Zetas want to kill each other. Just keep it south of the Rio Grande. (So yes, I guess I choose provincialism over global meddling.)

      BTW, what holier-than-thou country do you hail from? Typical European looking down your nose at the US while ignoring 1000 years of your own history?

    6. Re:Ballot Box, Soap Box, Ammo Box by glorybe · · Score: 1

      I see no privacy issues here at all. People driving in a community are very quickly noticed as qualified or in a non qualified frame of mind. Since this easily observable by the general public I think eveyone has the right to record as much as they can. Things done or said in front of others are not private issues at all. More and better truth will aid a nation in its survival.

    7. Re:Ballot Box, Soap Box, Ammo Box by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      his Government has enough weaponry to quickly turn any Popular Revolt with their tiny pea shooters into a grease stain in short order

      Guns and freedom nut here - it's actually quite possible to overthrow the US government starting with nothing but bolt action rifles.

      It's the same problem as the US faces with any occupation, whether it's Vietnam, Iraq or Afghanistan. It doesn't matter how many planes and tanks you have. At some point if you want to control the an area you have to put boots on the ground and that's where guerrillas have their advantage. The army has to march around in uniforms and establish a front line for their territory; every local citizen is then taking pot shots at them at their leisure.

      The army's morale goes to hell in those circumstances even when they're fighting "terrorists". You can't run a counter-guerrilla war for years. Troops living 24x7 wondering where the next bullet is going to come from and maybe kill them just like it killed their buddy yesterday will inevitably succumb to PTSD. That's assuming you have good enough PR to keep them believing in the mission. Just imagine how hard it'll be to keep them in line when they're trying to occupy their own country!

      At some point some mid-level brass may questions the wisdom of the war and defect along with whatever weaponry they control. Now the guerrillas have access to a few tanks, planes, stingers or whatever. The same tactics work: as long as the local population is willing to hide and support them a whole detachment of tanks will never appear in view of the sky until all of a sudden they swarm out, attack the army, then disappear again before a proper attack can be coordinated or drones can pick them out. It would require a very extended conflict before something like this would happen. It's much more common that the occupying government / army gives up before things like this occur. However it HAS happened a few times and it's extremely demoralizing to a conventional army.

      All of this assumes that the local population is solidly against the occupiers and the occupiers have a limited amount of willpower to continue. When it's a worst-case situation where the tyranny has gotten too extreme to go on ignoring it and the bread and circuses are running out that will be true, and such a civil war might succeed. Morale, not technology, wins wars. Having overwhelmingly better armament holds morale up for a while but highly motivated guerrillas who can attack at their convenience have massive advantages against demoralized conventional armies who have to hold territory.

    8. Re:Ballot Box, Soap Box, Ammo Box by sociocapitalist · · Score: 1

      My belief is that the value of the dollar has been dropped deliberately to help the US compete globally with regards to both manufacturing and services, what there is left of it. A strong dollar policy sounds good but it's not what the US needs at this point.

      --
      blindly antisocialist = antisocial
    9. Re:Ballot Box, Soap Box, Ammo Box by gmhowell · · Score: 1

      Wolverines!

      --
      Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
    10. Re:Ballot Box, Soap Box, Ammo Box by umghhh · · Score: 1

      they do not have to use any special weaponry - it is enough they assume you violated some holy laws like IP or drug laws etc.

    11. Re:Ballot Box, Soap Box, Ammo Box by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "...... Peashooters"

      You've obviously never been to Georgia.... Or much of the south at all. People here have been buying ammo in bulk (5.56, 7.62, .50cal) for the last 4 years like you wouldn't believe. Hell, I know guys with rocket launchers (had some of his buddies come over to blow up an old tractor). A sufficiently pissed off America would be impossible to control. I'm not stupid, there'd be a ton of bloodshed, but seeing what I've seen the only military force that coudl possibly occupy us is China, because it would take a military at least 75% of our population to hold us.

      Second, you don't know most cops/soldiers in the south. On average they despise the Feds, and the day they get orders to to use Appache's and B-2's against their own civilians is the day they become "terrorists". No, they'd have to send foreign troops in to "suppress" American citizens, and that's the day our national guard/air force bases aren't "Federal" anymore.

      To that all I say is: Try it.

    12. Re:Ballot Box, Soap Box, Ammo Box by J'raxis · · Score: 1

      You left out jury box.

    13. Re:Ballot Box, Soap Box, Ammo Box by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Face it -- you are a slave. Go to school, pass your exams, indenture yourself to a College, get a job, be useful, be productive, consume and create more consumers to replace you."

      he, he, and YOU are free because you never went to school, failed all exams, generally are not productive, can't afford anything and no one will date you? aah, freedom,.. (sorry couldn't help but notice)

    14. Re:Ballot Box, Soap Box, Ammo Box by doom · · Score: 1

      "My belief is that the value of the dollar has been dropped deliberately"

      My belief is that you're both out-to-lunch. Inflation has been fluttering around down near zero for years now.

      Try worrying about unemployment.

    15. Re:Ballot Box, Soap Box, Ammo Box by l0ungeb0y · · Score: 1

      Post Titles can only be so long, and to be fair, the court room is just another form of soap box, though with possible legal precedent setting outcomes.

    16. Re:Ballot Box, Soap Box, Ammo Box by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      .... What?

    17. Re:Ballot Box, Soap Box, Ammo Box by gmhowell · · Score: 1

      .... What?

      Red Dawn reference, junior. Get off my lawn.

      --
      Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
    18. Re:Ballot Box, Soap Box, Ammo Box by sociocapitalist · · Score: 1

      The whole point of my post about having a low dollar is unemployment. Inflation has nothing to do with it. You need to think internationally and not only about what you yourself can buy with your dollar but about what multinationals and people around the world consider when making buying decisions.

      The lower the dollar, the lower the relative cost of manufacturing in the US versus outside the US, and the lower the cost of the services provided by Americans in the US versus people outside the US.

      The lower the dollar, the more people will buy American goods and services. The more American goods and services sold, the more jobs should exist in America. The more jobs in America, the less unemployment in America.

      Now I will indeed go out for lunch.

      --
      blindly antisocialist = antisocial
  13. Enough already! by blindseer · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Time to get rid of the DEA. They just keep thinking up new ways to pry into our lives with the intent of ensuring the purity of our bodily fluids.

    Billions of taxpayers' dollars are spent on these yahoos every year and what do we get out of it. Money spent so they can set quotas on the production of medicines and now we have shortages of common medications for the treatment of pain, cancer, and mental disorders.

    This has become very personal for me. Because of an injury from military service I get my pain medications from the VA clinic in town. Since it is a controlled substance the physician can only write a prescription for 30 days. The VA clinic has a nice system where I just go into the office and fill out a form so the physician can rubber stamp the prescription for the next month. I have it pretty good, relatively. I feel sorry for those that don't have their meds handed out by the government.

    I can only imagine what someone else, someone that has to get the same meds by a private entity. Would they have to schedule a face to face examination with their physician every month? How much would that cost them? Would any insurance company cover the cost of providing a monthly supply of narcotics for a condition that existed prior to signing up for their plan?

    I've heard all kinds of horror stories of people that happened to be caught with a pill bottle, or just a single pill, that a friend or relative had forgotten and was left in the person's car, bag, or apartment. Being in the possession of a controlled substance is a felony unless prescribed by a physician. Do we want people to get sent to prison for five years because they tried to return the medicine that grandma left behind when she went to see her grandkids?

    FTFA:

    "I'll be quite frank with you," Oda told Newcomb. "A lot of us in Utah don't trust the federal government."

    I don't either. They claim they won't use this database for the purpose of enforcing misdemeanors and traffic violations. What keeps them from breaking this promise?

    I can see this already, someone will get the great idea of placing two of these along a well traveled route. The computers controlling these two stations will be connected together to compute the average speed of anyone that crosses these two points. Automatic speeding tickets will get mailed to the registered owner of the vehicle.

    I'd bet dollars to donuts that would happen if these license plate scanners get installed.

    --
    I am armed because I am free. I am free because I am armed.
    1. Re:Enough already! by shiftless · · Score: 2

      Exactly bro. You nailed it. The laws on the books have been way past the point of tyranny for years. Now they are tightening the screws down tighter and tighter, trying to extract (translation: rob at gunpoint) more and more money from the people to pay for their fucking mistakes. This shit is about to blow up in their faces, big time.

    2. Re:Enough already! by TubeSteak · · Score: 1

      Time to get rid of the DEA. They just keep thinking up new ways to pry into our lives with the intent of ensuring the purity of our bodily fluids.

      Keep the DEA, decriminalize the drugs.
      We'll still need the DEA to control perscription drugs, but that isn't what the traffickers are mostly interested in moving across borders.

      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
    3. Re:Enough already! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

      Don't you think the underworld will move on to other things if drugs are decriminalized? ie. more occurrences of robberies, home invasions, etc... I'm happier with the drug people doing their drug smuggling and leaving me alone.

    4. Re:Enough already! by blindseer · · Score: 1

      If we decriminalize the drugs then what exactly is the role of the DEA? I thought the regulation of prescription drugs was the FDA's job.

      If there is no crime in access to what are now controlled substances then would not all these controlled substances become over the counter products? No more regulated than Tylenol?

      I suppose one could argue that the drugs would still need a prescription but no longer be a controlled substance but I'm confused on how that would work. If there is no crime in providing the drugs without a prescription then what is going to stop a pharmacy from providing the drugs to whomever asks for them? There would be a profit motive to provide the products, just like how there is profit in selling bananas. There's money to be made in the trade of bananas, they are legal to sell without a prescription, therefore many people with buy and sell them.

      If you argue that there would still be criminal penalties for having these substances without a prescription then they have not really been decriminalized. I feel like I'm missing an important point. Please enlighten me on what I'm missing here. Mostly I'm trying to see what role the DEA plays in a government that already has the FDA and Department of Agriculture to regulate the quality of the products we consume as food and medicine.

      --
      I am armed because I am free. I am free because I am armed.
    5. Re:Enough already! by Fjandr · · Score: 1

      Maintaining huge criminal enterprises requires a lot more cash than can come from robbing people and houses. They can only exist where large black markets exist. The only markets they will move on to are other existing black markets. If you believe otherwise, there's not much point in conversing with you on the subject.

    6. Re:Enough already! by sound+vision · · Score: 2

      The important point you're missing is that "decriminalization" means decriminalization of POSSESSION - not decriminalization of SALE.

      Sales of a prescription-only drug would still be illegal - pharmacies or any legal entity would still be barred from selling you morphine unless you have a prescription. However, simply having the drug in your possession, would be legal - so long as you don't try selling it to someone else.

      What this effectively does is to decriminalize users of a drug, and anyone else who could momentarily or accidentally come into 'possession' of a drug (like the aforementioned son with grandma's pill bottle). Dealers of a drug would still be performing an illegal act - the selling of the drugs. This legislative approach puts the law enforcement pressure on dealers instead of users, which is how it should have been handled to start with.

      This is what's generally referred to as "decriminalization". What you are suggesting, where drugs would be totally legal to sell to anyone, is called "legalization".

      The distinction between possession and sale of a prescription drug is easily overlooked, but very important.

    7. Re:Enough already! by CarbonShell · · Score: 1

      The DEA is only a subset of 'the government', not in charge of it.
      Think about how much real power 'the government' has over its branches. They might manage the bosses, but what goes on inside is not monitored by 'the government'.

      And how often do you hear of branches doing stuff they should not? Do you honestly think it is always 'an order from them man himself'? Don't kid yourself.

      Problem is, they are all in the same boat so they will be very cautious to beat themselves for any wrong doing.
      If a branch gets caught doing something they should not, a few token fall-men will take the blame and get moved over.

      Thing is, this also happens in the private sector.

      Think about it from a different perspective: How many employees rip off their employers? Now think about a company the size of the government.
      Do you think every time a stapler is stolen, it is by decree? Do you think every time a bent cop plants evidence, it is done by order of the government?

      People are people. And the government, just like the private sectors, are made out of people. If they think they can get away with things, they will try to do so. They are just as corruptible and as honest as other people.

      Only difference between private and public is that the big heads in charge are voted in by the people. So if someone in the government is corrupt, well you put the person there.

      Think about that next time you vote. Do you think the person will do a good job because he is 'likeable'? The boss of Amazon, Steve Jobs and others could be ar$3holes, but they did do good jobs.

    8. Re:Enough already! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you believe otherwise, there's not much point in conversing with you on the subject.

      Nice salt in the eye. If that's the way you converse, then there's not much point in conversing with you on any subject.

    9. Re:Enough already! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Would they have to schedule a face to face examination with their physician every month? How much would that cost them? Would any insurance company cover the cost of providing a monthly supply of narcotics for a condition that existed prior to signing up for their plan?

      As someone who personally knows a person addicted to pain killers let me answer your questions in order.

      1) no. Many times they can show up and 5 mins later have a new script written...
      2) about 3k-5k a month thru illegal means, 100-200 if you can get a script
      3) probably the doctor just writes up a new condition... However, you probably will not have it as you are too busy chasing your addiction to keep a job.

      Look up 'pill mills'. You will then see why it is controlled. The people who are abusing this system (even with the stupid things you cite) are making lots of money or are too addicted to care.

      All it takes is one douchebag to abuse the system for the system to overreact and make it a pain in the ass for everyone else. In this case pill addiction is HUGE.

      You are right though about the scanning. That is exactly what it will be used for. Its what I call the douchebag factor. All it takes is one dippo to figure out something and ruin it for the rest of us.

    10. Re:Enough already! by mcgrew · · Score: 2

      Decriminalization doesn't solve the big problem, which is the violence and other assorted societal problems prohibition causes. All it does is make the drug users OK with the BAD law.

      The only drugs that should be illegal is antibiotics. That is the only class of drugs that your taking directly affects me, by breeding superbugs.

      If you want to screw up your own life, why should I care? There are plenty of perfectly legal ways to screw your life up.

    11. Re:Enough already! by Fjandr · · Score: 1

      Ah, you're conflating conversing on particular subjects with conversing on any subject.

      There are certain factual things which, absent a functional understanding of those facts, leads to making conversation on certain subjects completely meaningless. Failing to understand that is your problem, not mine.

      There are fundamentals to maintaining specific types of organizations. My statement applies just as well as it would if the person had claimed the mafia could be sustained by butterflies and unicorns. You're free to continue to believe it was a baseless error in logic though. I don't really care.

  14. I've got a better idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Defund the DEA. People are going to get high. The only real questions are:

    1. How much will it cost to treat the health problems that causes?

    2. Who is going to get the money from selling the drugs?

    With DEA in place, the answer to question (2) is that the DEA splits it with cartels and some small fish while raping the taxpayers. The health costs are born by everybody else. Tax the drugs, and the money will go to the government. Drugs (in the absence of health problems) become a profit center for the people instead of a cost center. Of course some drugs will cause health problems. The rational answer to that is to figure out how much it costs to treat them, and tax the drugs enough to pay for them. There might be some cases where the tax isn't enough to cover the health costs without re-creating the black market. I really don't know. Does the tax on alcohol, a perfectly legal substance, come anywhere near paying for the health problems it causes? What about the health problems it helps (yep, it's good in moderation). Some drugs will bring in more money than they cost in health problems (pot). Others will probably not bring in much money, but will cause serious health problems (meth). It ought to be possible to balance the cash cows against the losers. First things first though:

    Defund the DEA, reduce the national debt, quit wasting time, money, and lives.

    1. Re:I've got a better idea by Fjandr · · Score: 1

      Does the tax on alcohol, a perfectly legal substance, come anywhere near paying for the health problems it causes?

      More than likely not even close (it would be monstrously difficult to actually quantify the cost), but the economic and societal cost of its continued illegality were crystal clear.

      It's too bad the Supreme Court decided Congress can regulate items which don't impact interstate commerce because their lack of impact is an impact by its absence (they are masters at torturing logic).

      The Constitution used to treat Congressional authority as untrusted, so the permissions were set to allow, deny. The Supreme Court has since reversed that, so any crap coming out of Congress makes it through unless it clearly and explicitly is disallowed. Even then it may be packaged in such a way that it can wreak havoc for years before being contained.

    2. Re:I've got a better idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Figures from the UK. Smoking (which is far worse than drinking) costs the NHS £5 billion. And there are other indirect costs you might want to add in like loss of productivity.

      Taxes on tobacco raise £10 billion.

      Anyway, it seems likely that taxes fully cover the costs. But it's moot. With illegal drugs you get the costs without taxes to pay for them. Any tax income is a win.

    3. Re:I've got a better idea by umghhh · · Score: 3, Insightful
      I do not think there is an easy solution even if I am for legalisation. The way Dutch were was OK - they were relaxed about the drugs themselves there were even police officers in discos testing for purity so that suckers that consumed party pills did not end up as a said cost center. This all accompanied by education based on information and not scaremongering - kids are not stupid so if you tell them they are gonna die after one joint (silly lie) and get addicted after one meeting with meth or coke (true) they will see first to be a lie it is and assume second is too - possibly endangering themselves by basing their information on lies and misinformation. The decriminalization must also deal with the sick that are created by use of drugs if need be also with force.

      The decriminalization of drugs is not a silver bullet and anyway lots of work is needed on all levels - it does not help to have drugs decriminalized in one part of the country - the drug tourists are a problem not only because they are criminals around drug legalized oasis and thus are an issue with neighbouring jurisdiction but also because in large concentrations they are a nuisance for locals - that is why the Dutch are so pissed off that they allow selling of drugs only to residents now.

      In general I do not believe DEA can be dissolved. There is too much business there, too much power. The result is that the cost can only be removed when the state is strapped of the cash enuff to scrap DEA too. The bad thing about this scenario of scrapping the shitty agency is that there will be no money to deal with long term effects of DEA abuse as well as with 'normal' problems other substances (alco) also cause. So no silver bullet and uphill battle against demons from DEA. Good luck fighting that and 'tough on crime' hysteria as well as others. You need a shake up and that is unlikely. Bend and spread...

    4. Re:I've got a better idea by Anne_Nonymous · · Score: 1

      >> police officers in discos testing for purity

      Our cops test for purity too, if ya' know what I mean.

    5. Re:I've got a better idea by b4dc0d3r · · Score: 1

      I don't think the financial argument holds water these days. As you said, taxing to cover health problems creates incentive to avoid the legal market. The alcohol tax does not go to the people who have to pay most of the costs. Insurance, both health and auto/property, tends to be where the money is spent. Liver transplants and dialysis, car accidents, injuries, these are typical outcomes of alcohol use and not covered by the tax.

      Far better to think about drugs the same way we think about alcohol. Meth is the "rubbing alcohol" of drugs - it might be a fun high but is not safe. What drugs are left should be allowed to be consumed. The consequences of consumption should be punished, not the act itself.

      To put it another way - drugs are illegal because they show up in high crime areas. Guns and murder, theft to support a habit, kidnappings and abuse for drug mules. If it were legal, criminals would not profit. Gang wars for drug territory go away, along with police and hospital support required. Drug dealers need a business license, not weapons. You would have addicts and probably theft. But it would be a lot easier to find and treat addicts. You could hang out at the drug store, and just screen the "regulars".

      If I use alcohol I have committed no crime, but if I get drunk and start a bar fight I should be prosecuted for "failure to hold your liquor", and possibly considered for detox or treatment. Same for any other drugs. Treatment will be far less costly than housing a convict. There's your financial argument. Taxes go to support detox, not health problems. And we only punish people who have actually committed crimes, like a civilized society should do. Just like the Prohibition experiment, we created more problems than we solved. Model it after alcohol and the problem almost goes away.

      Cracking down on cocaine made people realize that transporting a powder is difficult, and they learned to cook it into crystals. Crack, far more addicting, was born. People who wanted that rush figured out how to make meth, with over-the-counter supplies. Marijuana is way more potent, I assume it was originally a similar aim - to reduce the transport need.

      This argument makes more sense, to me at least. "We're only making the problem worse".

    6. Re:I've got a better idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Cracking down on cocaine made people realize that transporting a powder is difficult, and they learned to cook it into crystals. Crack, far more addicting, was born.

      Crack was born because it was difficult to transport powder?

      Hello Mr Derp.

  15. Government property? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Public roads are public property, not government property, however much they pay for maintaining it (with your tax dollars). Keeping track of where you've been, when, is not something to systematically collect and store without a good reason to do so, however much any member of the public could legally do so. There's a difference between being legal and being desirable, even though American culture likes to stand on the very edges of what's still legal and then loudly proclaim it's a god-given right to push the limits to the max. Law enforcement likes to do that just as much as any other American. As such there possibly should be a law against the practice of collecting as much data as you can.

    The storing amounts to creating a movement database. What reasons does law enforcement have for such a thing? Merely "could come in handy someday" isn't good enough. In fact, the same goes for CCTV (increasingly so with progressing image recognition and tracking technology); just watch and signal I might buy, but storing? Not for a minute, sorry.

    Theoretically, I might be okay with just having the cameras without storing, but it's becoming increasingly clear that very few governments indeed, and whether they're "democratic" or not seems to have little if any influence, can be trusted to have data and then keep their promises to not also store it. Just look at all the passenger data the TSA is demanding and then storing for tens of years. What do they want with all that? They're not going to distill anything useful from it, rather the contrary. At best, more lists of badness that don't actually keep anyone at bay except a couple innocents and the odd senator. This system won't be any different.

    1. Re:Government property? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Public roads are public property, not government property

      You're quibbling over semantics. In both cases the property is owned ultimately by the taxpayer. The difference between calling it "government" and "public" is whether or not it's open to access by the general public or not. Your local Park is government property, it's also public property because it's open to the public. A nuclear launch facility, on the other hand, is just government property as the public has no access... even though it's still technically owned by the public.

  16. Obviously... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You must be up to no good if you're repeatedly, willingly going to Utah.

    1. Re:Obviously... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'll only have to worry if they put scanners on the highway near Disneyland. ;)

  17. I feel safer already by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is a great idea. It can also be used to catch illegal aliens who are stealing American jobs and selling drugs destroying our American way of life. Not only will it help to catch ilegal aliens, it will also help to build up cases against other types of criminal ilk that belong behind bars. These "privacy advocats" are just a bunch of bleeding heart liberals who care nothing about our country but rather more about letting criminals get off easy.

  18. Why ask permission? by Lost+Found · · Score: 1

    Sounds like the DEA's biggest mistake was asking for permission. They should just go ahead and authorize themselves to do the scanning and data retention, and then shove it down our throats for our own good.

  19. So basically the DEA is asking for what .... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    ... is already available and in use.

    Or do you think that speed/red-light cameras as well as "toll both scanners" are just dumb devices that some Joe Blow spends the day looking at on a monitor?

    Even the 2 year retention is not new either. That is probably the minimum amount of time the data is kept by default.

    1. Re:So basically the DEA is asking for what .... by AHuxley · · Score: 1

      They want legal cover and immunity. The ability to share the info, keep it, track it.
      No "walking" to court years later.

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
  20. Perhaps they're actually trying to catch the Pedos by Lohrno · · Score: 1

    You know, the Mormon Fundie types that marry 14 year olds and such...

  21. Fine. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    My horse has no license plate. Can these cameras read a brand?

  22. What this looked like by AHuxley · · Score: 1

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F90wnuWo6jk
    Shows the driver face capture, plate capture, passenger face capture and network link on one small roadside camera setting.

    --
    Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
  23. I have the solution by Sentrion · · Score: 1

    Copyright the sequence of letters and numbers that comprise your license plate. Even better, make it a personalized license plate that demonstrates your creativity, and have the design officially recorded at the US Copyright Office. If you have the ability, develop an algorithm that you can fit on a license plate, and submit your application to the US Patent Office. Now set up a website where users pay a fee to see your license plate. Make it known to the world that you will be engaging in performance art by driving to undisclosed locations where a few lucky souls can see your license plate for free. You are doing this to generate interest in your license plate contents and market your copyrighted works and/or patented technology. Occasionally invite random people to take "live" pictures of your performance art for a flat fee of $500 per photo. Sell mass-marketed photos of your license plate online for a nominal fee of only $250 per download.

    Now, fast forward to the moment you "discover" that various public and private servers are storing and possibly even distributing the copyrighted and/or patented information without your express written permission and without paying the artist/inventor. Whine to the MPAA, RIAA, or some other B.S.AA and take the sons of bitches to court for $20k per violation.

  24. SO WHAT by Conspire · · Score: 1
    --
    Real men don't need signitures!!!
  25. New "law"? by xenobyte · · Score: 1

    Not unlike Godwin's Law about discussions degenerating until someone pulls the nazi card, a similar law exists about privacy-eroding proposals: Argue that in order to protect us against something really bad (terrorists, drug trafficking etc.) we need X, which incidentally also can help protect us against some almost as bad (kidnappers, violent criminals etc.), thus offering us a multi-pronged tool that can do almost everything against the badness out there. Scared people loves stuff like this.

    But they forget to mention that it will also be very effective in taking away more of our freedom by offering a tool that essentially can be used to both track our movements and serve as the core of a police state where the authorities in real time came can both identify, track and easily apprehend people for anything, like parking tickets, expired license plates and everything else you put your mind to. Flag someone and you can easily locate and thus apprehend this person.

    --
    "For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong." -- H.L. Mencken (1880-1956) --
  26. Useless by sociocapitalist · · Score: 2

    As if drug traffickers always use the same vehicles....

    --
    blindly antisocialist = antisocial
  27. We tried it in Holland and it doesn't work by JasperKlewer · · Score: 1

    We tried this in Holland and it doesn't work. 200 cameras were installed in the Rotterdam region to catch criminals, but a recent report showed the police is NOT using it to catch criminals, because they have no clue what to do with all the data. Instead, the tax agency uses the cameras to go after unpaid taxes and unpaid fines. Installing cameras will lead to function creep, loss of privacy and another step towards a POLICE STATE. See http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&twu=1&u=http://frontpage.fok.nl/nieuws/543419/1/1/50/kentekencamera-pakt-geen-criminelen.html&usg=ALkJrhhvrWudYxPDrjVbVqd1Tm317MS-MQ

  28. What is scanning plates going to change? by dutchwhizzman · · Score: 1

    They already know that the drugs are going by that road. They already stop people when they are suspect. What is scanning plates going to change, except violate peoples privacy and cost money? What is the cost-benefit analysis of this whole thing? If they don't publish that, it's either not researched and should never be allowed, or it's so bad that if it were to become public, nobody would want it to happen.

    --
    I was promised a flying car. Where is my flying car?
    1. Re:What is scanning plates going to change? by Frobnicator · · Score: 2

      They already know that the drugs are going by that road. They already stop people when they are suspect. What is scanning plates going to change, except violate peoples privacy and cost money? What is the cost-benefit analysis of this whole thing? If they don't publish that, it's either not researched and should never be allowed, or it's so bad that if it were to become public, nobody would want it to happen.

      At the hearings that is one of the many points that was brought up. Basically the legislative committee saw there was no real benefit, it exposed huge privacy and long-term Big Brother concerns, etc. None of the legislators in the committee seemed likely to go for the plan.

      --
      //TODO: Think of witty sig statement
    2. Re:What is scanning plates going to change? by swalve · · Score: 1

      I'm not a fan of this either, but there is one potential upside: cops will start pulling over people based on some evidence, rather than just pulling over brown people.

    3. Re:What is scanning plates going to change? by billstewart · · Score: 1

      The cost-benefit analysis is "It used to be expensive, but now it's pretty cheap, and it looks like it might be useful." And while from a civil liberties perspective I really don't like it, from a technologist perspective I've got to say that it's gotten pretty cheap and it's only going to get cheaper, so get used to it. Sigh...

      A decade or so ago, when San Francisco wanted to tear down a major highway, they video-recorded the license plates of many of the cars using the highway, used prison labor to read the license plates, and sent people a postcard saying "We're tearing down the freeway next month, please find an alternate route to drive to work." It didn't have to be perfect, and didn't need perfect compliance, but enough people got the message that when they actually started the highway work, it didn't cause a massive traffic jam. These days they'd have a faster cheaper machine to read and scan the plates, and similar technology has been on the market for a while for doing parking enforcement.

      --

      Bill Stewart
      New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
  29. America, land of the free! by wolverine2k · · Score: 1

    Well well, we are anyways moving full speed ahead to implement a police state! Then our motto can be, "America, the land of the free where you are watched 24x7 for your own safety"!

  30. cycling by Max_W · · Score: 1

    One more reason to cycle.

    The compulsory bicycle helmet and glasses make also face-recognition impossible.

    Cycling is also good for physical shape and moral. Even a criminal may think: "...wait a minute, I can move around for free, I have an excellent physical shape now, I am constantly in good mood, I eat less, ... maybe I do not need all this illegal money that much ...".

    1. Re:cycling by misexistentialist · · Score: 1

      Requiring license plates for bicycles was done in the past and is occasionally brought up by some useless legislator.

  31. Re:My, my, my! by Chrisq · · Score: 1

    Do you think this troll is a competitor, trying to make us all hate MyFuckingCleanPc?

  32. Re:Mormons Politicizing Religious Goals by Chrisq · · Score: 1, Troll

    > "America is controlled by Mormons"

    No, silly! Everyone knows that America is controlled by corporations.

    And LDS is one of the biggest

  33. More drug war consequences by Dave+Emami · · Score: 1

    This is yet another example of the prosecution of the drug war infringing on the rights, not only of the people who want to buy and sell the drugs, but everyone else. The time is well past to end the damn thing. Pursuing it costs way too much money, disrupts too many innocent lives, violates free market principles, diverts law enforcement/judicial/penal resources from actual crimes, provides riches and power to murderous gangs who otherwise wouldn't exist, encourages similar (if less violent) government interference with other items (tobacco, fat, salt, etc) and warps US foreign policy. Hell, it even hinders our efforts to fight terrorists -- things would be a lot easier in Afghanistan if we weren't pissing off the locals by trying to interfere with their opium production.

    --

    "The Greens lynched a hacker in Chicago. Last month, but I think the body's still hanging from the old Water Tower."
  34. Re:My, my, my! by mwvdlee · · Score: 1

    As opposed to what exactly? Trying to make us LIKE other malware scam sites?

    --
    Slashdot social media options: AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, Jabber and Mobile Text. Why no MySpace?
  35. Re:Mormons Politicizing Religious Goals by MalachiK · · Score: 5, Insightful

    America is controlled by Morons. There, I fixed it for you.

  36. publicly available data by welshie · · Score: 1

    The government insists that motor vehicles have at least one licence plate that is easily readable, and that you have that on display whenever you're on the public roads. Anyone could sit beside the roads, and write down licence plate numbers. It's boring as hell. Trainspotters do this with locomotive numbers at railway stations. Plane spotters do this with aircraft registrations at airports. In most countries, this requires no special permission or legislation. Co-incidentally, those countries that do require prior permission to do this sort of thing are themselves heading towards being a police state. All the DEA are doing is automating this mundane task. This is already done for other purposes all over the place. Fuel filling stations use ANPR to deny fuel to known fuel thieves, car parks use ANPR instead of passes for private car parks. Of course, once the criminals work out what capturing and analysing images of licence plates is done to analyse criminal behaviour and catch criminals, they will work around it by having fake plates. The added complexity here is whether a licence plate identifies an individual. There's parallels to IP addresses here. You can often infer that an IP address is one usually used by an individual, but you cannot prove that it was only that individual using that IP address. In most places, the licence plate identifies the vehicle, not the driver - though there's often a near 1:1 correlation. In countries with strong personal data privacy laws, there may be requirements to purge records of almost-personally-identifying records after a short period.

  37. ..."To catch kidnappers and violent criminals." by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Ooops! Looks like they forgot to add: child molestors, Al Qaida, people who litter, scofflaws in general, the Abominable Snowman, Chupacabra, the Loch Ness Monster, et alia...

  38. But humans aren't as fun to mess with ;) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  39. Re:Mormons Politicizing Religious Goals by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

    "The good part is that Utah has the lowest unemployment. Coincidence?"

    No coincidence, nobody wants to live there.
    All that Salt and no booze, what do you do all day? Listen to your wife? ...and your wife? ....and your wife?

  40. Re:Mormons Politicizing Religious Goals by Lumpy · · Score: 0

    ""America is controlled by Morons"

    You accidentally typed an extra M in there.

    The above snippet explains the Entire Congress perfectly, so I am assuming that is what you meant.

    --
    Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
  41. they forgot Google by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is controlled by Jooz.

  42. Government doesn't keep promises by pubwvj · · Score: 1

    Big brother is watching...

    Government loves databases.

    In Vermont they made one of prescription drugs and promised it would be kept confidential and never allowed to the police without warrant.

    Shoot forward to today, just a few years later, and we find that the Governor, police and many legislators are trying to give the police full open access to the above database without any silly requirement to get warrants.

    Justification, some bad people might exist.

    Constitutional rights of innocent people? Just trample them... Oh, please. What's wrong with these people who want privacy. Jeezum crow.

    1. Re:Government doesn't keep promises by EmagGeek · · Score: 1

      If you are very concerned with your privacy, it MUST be because you are up to something illegal.

      If you aren't doing anything wrong, then you have nothing to hide.

      And so on... scary, Orwellian shit going on these days.

  43. London put multiple cameras on every block! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    London put multiple cameras on every block including 8 within 30 paces of the apartment where 1984 was written.

    They developed a sophisticated face recognition scanner.

    The total system employeed 10s of thousands of people and cost billions of pounds.

    So far they've prevented 0 that is to say no violent crimes. In fact violent crime is up since they installed it.

    What they've used it for is a new tax, where they charge you to drive to work as well as parking.

    Oh, they also used it to identify political protesters.

  44. Don't travel abroad if License Plate Scanning ... by Cragen · · Score: 1

    Don't travel abroad if License Plate Scanning bothers you. Google it, boys. Most countries now do it on all their borders, in the least. Users (countries) don't always advertise it but the makers of License Plate Scanning systems are all over the web. You guys need to travel more. Welcome to the rest of the world.

  45. Move to New Hampshire by J'raxis · · Score: 1

    Highway surveillance is outright prohibited here.

  46. In other words by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Government is not the people, and the people are not government.

    (Can we finally put this to rest now?)

  47. Plates already scanned at internal checkpoints by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The DEA has had little white trailers with high definition visible and thermal imaging camera at almost every internal boarder check point in AZ, TX and NM for two years or so.
    http://www.freedomsphoenix.com/Article/091479-2011-06-11-dea-dhs-topd-surveillance-along-az-sr86.htm

  48. back in the day... by HybridST · · Score: 1

    I remember seeing a segment on 'Daily Planet' perhaps back when it was still '@Discovery.ca' on a Toronto car-mounted system which was in use to recover reportedly-stolen vehicles and more than 1 hit-and-run case. Google will know which segment it was-IIRC it was a Shannon Bentley piece and showed the officers perspective as to what was visible through the camera footage.

    --
    Ever notice that Cobra Commander sounds an awful lot like Star scream?
  49. I propose by rally2xs · · Score: 1

    that we completely legalize all recreational drugs, and:

    1) Remove at least part of the reason to continuously violate the 4th amendment
    2) Remove at least part of the reason that this country incarcerates more than any other nation
    3) Remove at least part of the reason that we spend hideous amounts of money on law enforcement
    4) Remove at least part of the reason for criminal gangs in America

    The drug laws create far more problems than they solve, and dismantling the protections of the Constitution is just one of them. Stray bullets killing kids in ghettos as drug gangs fight over territory is absolutely unacceptable, while those who desire the drugs still get all the drugs the want anyway. We have lost the war on drugs, which has been true for a couple decades now, so its time to admit it and quit making war on citizens' freedom in the name of attempting to win the impossible victory.

  50. +1 by DocSavage64109 · · Score: 1

    Really, as those cameras are made by some corporation, I'd think any republican would be glad to lose a little privacy to help some poor shareholders. Let's hear it for capitalism!

  51. the "primary" purpose by cyn1c77 · · Score: 1

    The primary purpose would be to catch or build cases against drug traffickers, but at a Utah Legislature committee meeting Wednesday, the sheriffs and a DEA representative described how the scanners also could be used to catch kidnappers and violent criminals.

    How long will it be until they lower the freeway speed limit "for safety," place two scanners a few miles apart on the highway, use the data to calculate your average velocity, and then send you an automated speeding ticket?

    Of course, the primary purpose of the system will be to catch drug traffickers and child molesters for your safety, but the state would like the secondary objective to be profit.

    This reeks of a government scare tactic to increase state authority at the expense of citizen privacy. If law enforcement wants to build a case against someone, they should either do some detective work or get a warrant. Citizen tracking is not a palatable in a free and open country.

  52. booze tax in canada by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    in ontario alone at 11 million people it rakes in nearly 6 billion profits a year
    seeing how the usa is 250 million people if you modeled it like canada....120-130 billion or so now think drugs and tobacco
    yup a lot a coin had all round and in dope were all missing out.
    FACT is pot does so little damage and its the meth and crack that do the worst damage....

    1. Re:booze tax in canada by Fjandr · · Score: 1

      That is true. A tax on pot would definitely provide a vast surplus in treatment costs for drugs. I was thinking more in terms of what we have now (something like 3/4 of all vehicular injuries involve alcohol, plus fetal alcohol syndrome over the life of the child, plus the cost of psychological, social, and economic treatment for the various harms caused by its availability) likely far outweighs what is made in taxes.

      A tax on marijuana would definitely work to cover that shortfall without adding much to the burden.

  53. You mean like this case? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    OK, I'll admit it's hardly an epidemic among police departments. When I googled it, most of the stories seem to point to this one case:

    http://www.nytimes.com/1999/09/09/nyregion/metro-news-briefs-connecticut-judge-rules-that-police-can-bar-high-iq-scores.html

    Still, it has happened that someone was denied employment as a police officer due to their high IQ score.

  54. The War on Jobs by Rambo+Tribble · · Score: 1

    Clearly, this is another example of technology eliminating jobs in the spying, informing and snitching sectors. Don't let big business and big government send American jobs to offshore data interpretation centers!

  55. Here's a more effective solution by RogueWarrior65 · · Score: 1

    Here in Arizona, law enforcement is now devoting more time to catching the people driving south with suitcases full of cash. Now there's your Robin Hood method.
    But aside from this, all this scanner business will do is force the drivers to go up US-89 which is a less traveled road anyway.

  56. Interstate Traffic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I-15 through Utah carries something like 60% of the drugs coming out of LA destined for the rest of the country. You might not be familiar with the geography but unless you are willing to drive on 300+ miles of dirt roads I-15 and I-10 are the only reasonable transit corridors out of LA to the rest of the country (unless you wanna drive from LA to Sacramento and come out on I-80).

    How can I-15 carry 60% of the drug traffic out of L.A. when the gooberment claims that I-40 carries 70% and I-10 carries 50% and I-8 carries 40%?

    New gooberment math?

  57. Bullshit by pigwiggle · · Score: 1

    The US military couldn't put down a popular revolt *in the US*. The US military has a difficult time with insurgencies. Take a read about Operation Vigilant Resolve in retaking Fallujah. Now, do you really think the military could convince it's rank and file to fight with that kind of violent enthusiasm in the towns and cities they've lived and worked? It takes a lot more than weapons.

    --
    46 & 2
  58. Walking in NY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Walking down the sidewalk in NY, I have no expectation of privacy, but I do have an expectation of disinterest.

    Not at all. Today, in 2012, you must now accept the reality to have the expectation to be stopped and searched/frisked by any one of NY's cops for absolutely no reason at all. Just because they can. It doesn't even matter if that's legal under the US Constitution or not anymore.

    How do you like them apples, in the Big Apple now?

  59. Meanwhile in Canada... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Automatic Licence Plate Recognition (ALPR) is a rapidly expanding program piloted in the Canadian province of British Columbia. They want to keep a record of when and where your vehicle is seen travelling throughout the province for at least 2 years. The officer in charge of the program can't say how that information could be/will be used, but wants it all anyways "just in case".

    The program is in flagrant violation of Canada's privacy laws, but unfortunately the federal and provincial privacy commissioners can only advise: if a government organization decides not to obey the law, the commissioners don't have the ability to enforce compliance.

  60. OR... by CimmerianX · · Score: 1

    Or they could just legalize Marijuana and tax it, thus avoiding this huge expense and tracking effort.

    1. Re:OR... by Reziac · · Score: 1

      And leaving the DEA and the companies that make and promote the scanners sadly destitute.

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
  61. Let's cut to the chase by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    and just arrest everyone.

  62. Re:Mormons Politicizing Religious Goals by pnutjam · · Score: 0

    you misspelled Moron's

  63. The first person arrested by Quila · · Score: 1

    When they made it illegal to buy "too much" Sudafed within a certain period, the first person to be arrested was a guy who bought enough to last his kid through summer camp.

    Real meth cookers know not to buy too much in a traceable manner over the counter, so it's not likely to catch an actual criminal. But some dad worried about his kid's allergies sure got nailed.

  64. tag scanners by P-niiice · · Score: 1

    Gwinnett County Georgia has been using the scanners....sitting on the side of the road and pulling over anyone with expired plates, old tickets, etc. If your birthday is March 15th and you had a March 2012 stickler, you used to be able to get away with waiting until the end of the month to renew. Not anymore - if you get scanned on the 16th with that "March" sticker, your ass is in for a fine. And expired tags is the quickest way to lose your license in Georgia. It's such a ridiculous money grab.

  65. Relax by DancesWithWolves · · Score: 1

    All you guys upset about this, please relax - for now.

    As long as there is a Democrat in the White House, Utah's Republican legislature will not allow this to happen.

    Now if a Republican gets in to the White House, you can sit back and watch as they fall over themselves justifying this.

  66. Missionaries!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Actually, what they mostly want to do is give the license plate numbers to the LDS Church so they can look up your name & address & send their missionaries to your house to proselytize!

  67. Utah Data Center by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Utah is where the gov data center is being. Helps keep the latency down.

  68. Re:You have the derp by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Now, fast forward to the moment you "discover" that various public and private servers are storing and possibly even distributing the copyrighted and/or patented information without your express written permission and without paying the artist/inventor. Whine to the MPAA, RIAA, or some other B.S.AA and take the sons of bitches to court for $20k per violation.

    Pro-tip: RIAA and the ilk only care about their member artists, meaning the livestock they own.