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PadMapper Gets C&D From Craigslist Over Apartment Listing Maps
First time accepted submitter Autumnmist writes "Craigslist has
sent a Cease and Desist to PadMapper, a site that does a mashup of Craigslist (as well as Rent.com, Apartments.com) apartment listings and Google Maps. Craigslist is great, but apartment hunting through Craigslist has always been a needle in a haystack proposition, because all apartments for an entire city area are shown in a giant list. PadMapper made Craigslist better by locating each listing on a Google Map of the area.
From PadMapper: 'I recently received a Cease and Desist letter from Craigslist, and wasn't able to get a meeting or convince Craigslist's lawyer that PadMapper was beneficial to Craigslist and apartment hunters in general. They allow mobile apps to display their listings if you buy a license from them, but not websites."
HousingMaps.com has been doing this for something like 5 years. I'm sure there are probably others like it too.
I'm tired of people doing stuff for free. If you want to do something, you should have to pay for it.
Not only is this a major bummer for me, as I love using PadMapper, I don't see why craigslist would do this. Not only did it make craigslist apartment listings actually usable, but it must be driving a fair amount of traffic to them as well. Perhaps if craigslist was about to launch something similar I could understand, but I think we all know that is not going to happen.
The more people using Craigslist the worse craigslist will abuse it's market share.
No doubt if Craigslist was some how paid before hand, they wouldn't care to send their sharks.
Best advice, people should convince their friends to stop using Craigslist and start using something else.
Not being a craigslist user myself (wrong continent), do Craigslist actually own the copyright for the listings? My understanding is that when I put an ad in a paper, the paper might get copyrights to the typesetting (if they did that, ie, classifieds), but the actual content was mine and I'm effectively giving them reproduction rights to that ad.
If this holds true on CL, the third party site wouldn't require a license to reproduce the content of the listings, only the formatting.
Now, I've checked CL's TOU and frankly, it's just confused me more. It's saying that users grant CL the rights to reproduce and sublicense the content the users post, but then goes on to state that the user also gives them the right to pursue unauthorised copies. At no point does it actually say that the user has assigned the actual copyright to CL - which would put this is the same category as the Righthaven situation. IE, without the actual copyright, CL wouldn't have standing to sue.
Any thoughts?
Why is craigslist still stuck in the 80's with their user interface?
Skip ------ See the latest from http://www.anArchyFortWorth.com
Padmapper is the first site I've ever seen that makes apartment hunting on Craigslist actually useful!!!!
WTF?!?
I'm looking for a house in a specific neighbourhood and it's absolutely impossible to do via Craigslist directly!!! If Craig offered a map, I would at least understand why they might issue a C&D, but seriously...
Padmapper links directly into craigslist and displays the full-screen whenever you click on the listing. It's not like they're aggressively scraping content! It's just a searching service.
This is terrible, Craigslist!! Terrible!
Fuck everything about this. I've been using padmapper to hunt for my first apartment in a city I've never lived in before. Thankfully I got a lot of my stuff over the past week, but what about new stuff? I'll say it again: fuck those useless craigslist pieces of shit.
One of the things craigslist tried to do on their "epic" war against bots is hunt down domains, sending the C&D and then getting the ICE to shutdown the site. The site-ops just changed their domain from .com to .net. Those guys are still up. So why not trying something similar, both the Doman and Server offshore.
This really shows how much craigslist is a racket. And is now exploiting the courts to enforce their racket on user-contributed information.
whores
If its copyright, then Craigslist is shit out of luck because its not a creative work.
I've used padmapper quite a lot, I wonder what brought about the C&D. Perhaps their crawlers were a little more aggressive than is reasonable?
Wait, are you serious?
The volume of garage sales in major cities dropped substantially in recent years, according to a study I saw, most likely due to Craigslist (and to some extent, eBay).
Classified advertising in most major newspapers declined by 90% or more, almost exclusively due to Craigslist.
Most real estate listing services have gone to a free-to-view model because of (primarily) Craigslist. Most use car listing services have gone out of business or to a free-to-use model because of (presumably) Craigslist.
Who the hell doesn't use Craigslist?
Craigslist is still around? Who the hell keeps using it?
If not Craigslist then what do you use for free classified advertising?
Last I checked, Craigslist was free/cheap classified ads with the largest user base/viewership of them all. Has this changed?
Why is craigslist still stuck in the 80's with their user interface?
Who says ?
Just because everyone else has to use every single latest scripting language, technique, eye-candy, whatever doesn't mean it is actually useful.
I can't tell you how many times I've tried clinking on a navigation link only to have some whiz-bangy thingy pop-up and block my mouse click - yeah no matter how you maneuvered your mouse, it triggered the pop-up and you were somewhere you didn't want to be.
It's the typical thing that developers fall into time and time again: there's a language or platform feature and they need to use it somehow regardless of its necessity - just because it's a "Cool" thing to do.
Craigslist should provide this type of map interface for all of their listings. Garage sales, dating,... Why not?
To be fair, it's free to post for many cases, so they make their money from ad revenue. If you scrape their site, you get the revenue not them. That's money out of their pocket.
Most sites you can't just scrape... Isn't this basically the same thing we were just harping on FunnyJunk for doing to Web Comics sites? It's been like this for years now.
Rednecks. Put an ad up for a used car, and you won't believe the shit you see.
I had an old beater up a few years ago, I'd been offered $800 in trade, but thought I could do better selling it myself. After a week of dealing with CL people, I just scrapped it for $300 - it was worth the loss just to not have to deal with them anymore.
Seriously, who emails asking if the car has a fucking engine? Is that a factoid that is typically omitted as a sales tactic or something?
My sister opened a computer store in Hawaii. She sells C shells by the seashore.
Craig's list would do this THEMSELVES but they would have to PAY GOOGLE to use Google Maps without properly handing over Ad Revenue and search data to Google.
Effectively PaperMapper is doing free processing tI feed Google's search engine!
Most on the whores are on Backpage now... And tnaboard.
If you try using PadMapper now that goes to a post on Craigslist.. they'll give you a blank page (assumingly using just referrals to block it). If you open an incognito window in Chrome and you'll be able to get to it.
Sounds like you're one of the idiots who posts an ad on craigslist and omits all of the information possible. It's not a newspaper ad limited to 20 words. You can actually tell me a little something about the car you're trying to sell.
"Van for Sale" does not a good ad make.
Tell me what works, what doesn't, what year it is, what brand it is, what model it is, how good the tires are, yes, whether it runs or not, how many miles. Don't omit pertinent facts and I won't have to email you to ask stupid questions. And yes, even if this is a $1000 beater. Take the 30 seconds to write a meaningful ad and take decent pictures and your stuff will sell in a reasonable amount of time with minimal hassle. Also use big words that confuse rednecks.
My guess how the ad looked:
CAR FOR SALE
CHEAP CHEAP!!! COME GET IT> AWESOME CAR ONLY $999.00
DONT WAIT, YO U WANT IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Craigslist does NOT have advertising. Have you ever seen any advertising? Where is it?
They make their money on Employment listings in major cities. That's what they charge for. It's the only thing they charge for.
The rest of the site is provided for free, because its "the right thing to do", apparently.
It's unfortunate that Craigslist is the most popular wanted-ads site on the Internet, since they insist on remaining stuck in the past, and making it as hard as possible for people to access their content.
Their obsession with "localism" and consistent refusal to implement an all-aread search feature (and consistent breaking of third-party sites which do this) is especially problematic. I collect electric fans from the 1980s, which often don't show up on eBay because people don't think they are worth anything, but commonly appear on Craigslist. An all-areas search would be extremely helpful, but every time one appears, Craigslist either threatens them or does something on their site to break it. If someone doesn't want to ship (I usually offer them extra money in addition to the actual shipping costs if they are willing to do so), that's fine, but it should be their choice, not Craigslist's.
Personally I don't like or use Craigslist, but I don't like or use classified ads either. ... I guess I haven't found the need.
I've not bought or sold any item or service using Craigslist or classified ads...
No, he's right, the people who respond to Craigslist ads are astoundingly retarded (or so bored they are desperate for human contact).
Every time I've posted an ad, I've felt like this: http://www.funnyjunk.com/funny_pictures/305567/Cinder+Block+Craigslist+Ad/
Who the hell doesn't use Craigslist?
The Whole Wide World outside of US of A.
Padmapper,
Greetings! We see you have listings of our house content in your site. Because your site is awesome and benefit to our site, we have sent you a money order for $10000 as a Thank You for increasing business! Unfortunately our accountant accidentally sent you $15000 instead, Could you please wire back the $5000 over payment. You can keep the rest as a present from us!
Sincerely,
Craig S. List
This is total fucking bullshit, CL hasn't evolved in it's basic user interaction since it began. PadMapper makes their service useful!
Is there anything better than clicking through Microsoft ads on Slashdot?
How does Padmapper "feed Google's search engine"?
Or did you just make that up?
If all data is user-generated and free to use, is there anything wrong with scraping that data and providing better information about the data ?
Until there is a clear definition on what user-generated information can and can-not be used for, companies will continue exploit the data to their own benefit.
Are there any rulings on the limit-of-use if that data is free ?
I don't know why; but they are *stuck*. It's admirable that they haven't gone nuts with AJAX and advertising; but they haven't worked on the things that really matter either.
Real estate listings on there are a joke. It was useful a few years ago, but I watched it get swallowed up in a sea of spam. Real estate listings driven by brokers, in turn, became more open and dropped their requirements to register. MLS fragmentation by region is still a problem; but you can work around it.
A few MLS listings will have errors such as listing trailer homes and condos as SFRs, but on CL you can't distinguish between the two even if you want. It's a real needle-haystack proposition looking at their ads. I hardly ever bother anymore.
They need to do some serious work on the back-end, add some more fields in the DB, etc. It's not like they have no revenue at all. They need to use it more wisely.
I think they're stuck between trying to "keept it real" and actually provide a useful service. I'd hate to see it die; because if it does then the AJAX infested ad-monkeys really take over the Internet, as if they hold on... Blam! BLAM! had to kill some monkeys there. Ok, gotta reload. Bye-now.
I'm always amused when I see people, mostly web professionals, bitch about CraigsList.
The VC and bizdev types hate CL because "CL is just leaving money on the table. They need to understand how to make a profit."
Webdevs hate them because CL doesn't adopt whatever new design trend comes along, therefore CL "doesn't get UX", or webdevs hate them because of situations like this, where some webdev can't build his business off of someone else's platform.
This, compadres, is why you don't take your business public. CL has a staff of less then 20 people, they make plenty of bank while at the same time staying true to their own ethos, whether you agree or not. And the consumers seem to be coming back over and over. And yes, I have heard many people say that this is because CL has been around so long, that they are the 500 lb Gorilla that will never be moved. Uhh, are we on the same Internet? Tell that to Yahoo, MySpace, etc etc.
Here's a Wired article from 2009 that covers the exact topic of CL and site scraping. Maybe PadMapper should have read it first.
Wired Interview with Craig Newmark
Yeah, that's pretty much what the situation was. The ad stated that it was a Mazda 626 that had been owned by a smoker before me, had a falling roof liner and a few rust spots. Had six or seven photos posted, including one of the engine compartment. I listed the things I had replaced recently, including both sets of brakes and the tires. I had the mileage, the trim style, and the options listed (sunroof, power locks, that kind of stuff).
As an example, a level of detail similar to this ad. I will admit, I didn't think to state explicitly that the vehicle ran, because I just thought that was assumed for a non-collectible car listed at $1500. Clearly this was an oversight on my part. But it probably wouldn't have mattered, because 3/4s of the calls I received asked me questions that were stated both in the title and the ad itself, like the mileage or the year. I honestly don't understand how those troglodytes were able to extract my phone number from the ad without any other relevant bits of data whatsoever.
My sister opened a computer store in Hawaii. She sells C shells by the seashore.
I'm always amused when I see people, mostly web professionals, bitch about CraigsList.
No, users bitch about Craigslist, because their site lacks distance search, and users want it. And yes, I know this is deliberate, and no, I don't agree that it makes sense. And therefore, if they won't permit scraping, they're assholes and I wish they would go the fuck away so that someone who will do a more functional site has a chance to get enough users to make it worthwhile.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
They'll probably just Facebook it: send C&D, implement the same idea on your own page. Or just buy the site.
No location based search REALLY doesn't make sense for apartments, as that is by far and away the most important attribute of a place.
Hopefully this will result in people moving away from craigslist, and posting directly on padlister.com (padmappers own listing)
They shut down CraigZoom a few months back. It was a great aggregation site that made it possible to do multi-region searches. As far as I know, it's not possible with CraigsList, so essentially they eliminated a feature.
I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
Um... I hate to tell you this, but ANYBODY is free to create a similar website, with any business model behind it that they want.
Your argument doesn't hold water, because nobody else has built anything that beats them. Therefore, by simple logic, CL *is* what people want.
Build it better, make a fortune. Nobody is stopping you. Until then, quitcher bitchin'.
One of the things we need in the US is mandatory licensing and a commission that determines fair prices.
Fair use isn't just about usable free stuff. All too often businesses will horde information and IP at unreasonable prices. Information which in the public interest should be available at a reasonable price.
The public gives IP rights holders it's so called "right". The public does this theoretically because it's in the public's own best interest to promote things such as science, literature and art. But the public also deserves value from those it's gives a copyright or a patent and as such in no way it's it a contradiction for it to set fair pricing because without it the "right" holder could claim no income at all.
Take patents. Should I be able to patent a medical procedure that will save lives? What if I said I wanted something unreasonable like a trillion dollars per treatment. The fundamental question is what is in the public's own interest! We should not allow information hoarders. We award creativity and achievement not hoarding.
Something like this: http://jchutchins.net/site/2008/12/19/the-most-awesome-craigslist-post-ever/
Are you familiar with the term "network effect," by any chance?
ANYBODY is free to create a similar website
Great. How do you propose that they convince people to use their similar website now that craigslist has become a household word, and when people generally go straight there rather than trying to google for items in their area? Nine times out of ten if I see something interesting by googling craigslist the listing is already deleted by author by the time I get there, so search engines are no help anyway.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
As an example, a level of detail similar to this ad [craigslist.org]. I will admit, I didn't think to state explicitly that the vehicle ran, because I just thought that was assumed for a non-collectible car listed at $1500.
How well a car runs is pretty damn important -- you wouldn't believe the crap people try to sell for $1,500 that doesn't run. When I sold my car on Craigslist I explicitly stated how well it ran, including that it reliably started every time, and also listed a problem it had with shifting.
Yes, one kid asked me stupid questions that had answers listed right in the ad, but most callers were reasonable. I priced it to move and sold it in two days for $700 (this after calling a used car dealer who wouldn't even make me an offer). The car was over 10 years old and I only paid $13k when I bought it, so I was happy.
I thought we weren't using FunnyJunk this week?
Did the internet win? Can we go there now?
well, maybe Craigslist is awesome where you live. But here in Los Angeles, and probably in most of the big cities, Craigslist sucks donkey dick due to spam and scammer posts.
I'm looking at the Los Angeles apartment/housing section now, and it's about 70% spam, 15% scammer (con artist) and 15% legitimate posts.
Now the sections that they require payment to post ads - such as jobs - are fine and spam free. But for much of CL, trying to find something is a royal pain in the ass. Makes you wonder why they don't require at least a small payment for posting an ad. That would end pretty much all spam instantaneously.
Not only is the low barrier to entry for posting an ad (actually there is no barrier) causing a spam-fest, it also has a negative effect on legitimate posts. Since it costs nothing to post an ad, and you can post as many as you want for as long as you want, sellers develop a tendency to price their items ridiculously high in hopes of landing a sucker. The Motorcycle section for instance, is full of guys dreaming... seriously. And they post the same ads again and again (because their overpriced items don't sell).
Example: back in late April, a guy advertised his 2007 VFR800 for $8500. I remember it well because that was one of the models I was searching for. The guy was dreaming, $8500 is well above Blue Book value and a realistic price would be $6500 for a *pristine* bike in excellent condition. Since nobody bought it, he would keep reposting the same ad again and again every few days. Once in a while he would lower the price a bit.
The ad is still there, 2 months later. The price is now $7500. Nobody's bought it yet still.
Back in the days of paid classified ads, this would never happen. Sellers would price their items realistically, since they paid money for the ad and wouldn't want to waste it on a very low percentage gamble.
Another interesting bit is how spamming on CL has become a cottage industry. If you go to Freelancer.com or Elance.com (sites where you can hire programmers from India), you'll see many projects for Craigslist scrapers and auto-posters and so on.
So yeah... CL isn't the wonderful unicorns and flower petals some people think it is. I wish it would die already and something similar (but more sensible) take its place.
If it had any trouble running, I would have thought to mention it in the ad - but it ran and shifted perfectly fine (I had just wanted a car that was under 180K miles before taking a 2000-mile road trip). Calling and asking, "Does it run okay?" is perfectly reasonable. But I am being honest-to-God-serious when I say that multiple people asked if it had a fucking engine.
My sister opened a computer store in Hawaii. She sells C shells by the seashore.
That's a challenge, yes, but the world of business is no kindergarten where the world owes you success. So they need to find a way to convince people.
Or they can do like so many other businesses that look for Easy Street do, lobby Congress to create regulation that benefits them.
That's a challenge, yes, but the world of business is no kindergarten where the world owes you success. So they need to find a way to convince people.
Great. I would like to convince people that CL is crap and actually harmful to the market and to users as compared to a service that wasn't so stupidly obstinate, so that a competitor has a chance to enter the market. I'm only one guy, but I could use a little help.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Great, then CL is ready for disruption. I'm not saying that CL is awesome, I'm saying this is why you don't take your company public. You can do whatever you want. And if the CL audience is as sick of CL as you and others claim, then it's time for someone to start typing.
I'm looking for a house in a specific neighbourhood and it's absolutely impossible to do via Craigslist directly!!! If Craig offered a map, I would at least understand why they might issue a C&D, but seriously...
In the past year used CL to find a new apartment within a 1/2 square mile area of a specific neighborhood of a major metropolitan area.
When apartment ads are filled out properly, there's a direct link to both a google map and a yahoo map for the specific ad. It's trivial to create your own customized neighborhood map using these links. Those that disregard the provided map links are usually agency redirect spam posts. HOWEVER, sometimes they're from people who just filled it out improperly, or not at all. Padmapper would miss these listings.
I don't see how you can claim that padmapper saves you so much time: you need to review each link. It's not difficult to create your own custom map, and it's not particularly time consuming. You'd have to review the ads individually *anyway*, and it's a trivial matter to discard those outside of your area.
I wasn't in a rush so I had weeks to search, but even spending perhaps 15 minutes a day browsing ads I was able to map several dozen apartments in and immediately around my desired area. My point is that finding the ads isn't the part of apartment hunting that consumes the most time: it's the follow up. Calling, viewing, visiting, etc. I suppose padmapper *might* have saved me an hour or two, but it also would have missed about a sizeable portion of the CL-listed apartments in my desired area.
Eh, I don't really agree. For certain types of sites, having an existing community and userbase is a massive boost, and overcoming that is very difficult for a new player in the area. A new site could come along with all the features I could want in a listings-site, but I would probably still use Craigslist (despite all of the irritations it comes with) for selling something, because the larger user-base of Craigslist means I'm more likely to get the most money off my sale.
Try kijiji