NASA Releases HiRISE Images of Curiosity's Descent

gcnaddict writes "NASA released content from the MRO HiRISE imager taken during the descent of the Curiosity Rover. Among the most notable artifacts are the images themselves as well as a diagram showing the exact location of the rover relative to NASA's target." Update: 08/07 00:15 GMT by U L : And now for a picture from the rover itself.

Comments

Fantastic!

[PPH]

Nice shot. And kudos to the folks who painted the white square on the surface of Mars. If only the people who striped our freeways could have done such a good job.

Re:Fantastic!

[chispito]

Thanks for making this political. We couldn't have done it without you.

Re:Fantastic!

[Anonymous Coward]

So, this was not done in the Nevada desert?

No, you moron, it was not.

Re:Fantastic!

[drkim]

So, this was not done in the Nevada desert?

No -- they shoot the moon landings in Nevada; they shoot the Mars Rover stuff in Chile:
http://www.timshome.com/chile/images/2001/cl27_valle_luna.jpg

Re:Fantastic!

[doti]

Is there a version without those ugly, unnecessary lines?

For instance, to use the image as a desktop wallpaper.

Re:Fantastic!

[Anonymous Coward]

It's NSA you insensitive clod...

Too cool

[Niris]

Watched the stream last night of Mission Control, and coupled with this and the other images it has just been too cool.

Re:Too cool

[swanzilla]

I don't think I'm alone in hoping this is cool enough to parlay funding another mission of this magnitude. Hats off to the engineers involved with this...very well done.

Re:Too cool

[Anonymous Coward]

Unfortunately, things are going the other way. NASA's unmanned space budget is being cut.

The Obama administration plans to massively cut funding for NASA’s planetary exploration program. Zubrin writes that Obama’s 2013 budget would permit the continuation of a couple of projects—the MAVEN orbiter and the Mars Science Curiosity Lab—but would otherwise leave planetary exploration without much of a budget. The space astronomy program, too, faces deep cuts.

The overall NASA budget is similar, but unmanned probes and robotic science budgets have been savaged :-(.

Re:Too cool

[roman_mir]

Don't you know, the government likes the robots.

Except that it likes them in the form of weapons, so that they can kill more people with those robots.

Mars?
Oil and other loot.

Re:Too cool

[inthealpine]

NASA was created to combat the USSR threat. I'm not disagreeing about the US needing to get itself out of the world police business, but an anti-war pro NASA post kind of makes me laugh.

Re:Too cool

[roman_mir]

Who said I am pro-NASA?

Re:Too cool

[cheesybagel]

Actually SLS and James Webb space telescope ate the budget. Ooops.

Re:Too cool

[poly_pusher]

I don't care what it costs, I want a drill sent to Europa...

Remember, all American's can have an impact on that decision. I was all for a reduction in manned space travel expenditures and ending the money pit that was the shuttle program "Thanks Nixon!" However, I was under the impression that they surely would not impose cuts to NASA and JPL's hugely successful unmanned missions. The things Nasa has accomplished over the past 15 years with rover's, probes, and telescopes is astonishing.

Nope, you're not alone...

Re:Too cool

[Brenda Lee Ayala]

Anyone knows any updates on the "lisa path finder project of nasa? ;) how can they invest a trillion dollars and now be so quiet about it.. Hmmm makes it more interesting..landing on other planets is wonderfull but the possibility of finding multiverses is mind blowing,that is the mission of lisa pathfinder the biggest laser satelite of all. As explained by Dr Mitchio kaku. Lisa pathfinder was sent out last year but was not announced or was it? ;)

Re:Too cool

[GNUALMAFUERTE]

A drill to Europa? You are just gonna find a lot of dead people and France's perfume deposit.

Re:Too cool

[poly_pusher]

+1 :)

Or Enceladus or a rover-y thing to Titan. Seriously though it seems like we've discovered all this amazing stuff about our solar system and right when we're on a solid path to explore these discoveries in depth, poof! there goes the funding...

Re:Too cool

[dgatwood]

Unfortunately, things are going the other way. NASA's unmanned space budget is being cut.

Here lie the last remaining artifacts from a once-great race—the humans—their great potential cut down in its prime by their tremendous lack of foresight. For centuries, the great thinkers had shouted the need to venture among the stars, but their leaders were too busy worrying about building bigger and better weapons to defend themselves from their neighbors. When the great war came and the environment was poisoned beyond the ability to sustain life, the politicians pointed fingers and blustered their "I told you sos", but in the end, it made little difference. Their fate was sealed long before.

Re:Too cool

[Anonymous Coward]

Such delicious irony.

I know you are just trolling, but I wouldn't even qualify this as the pot calling the kettle black. More like the obsidian calling the snowflake black.

Re:Too cool

[Anonymous Coward]

but an anti-war pro NASA post kind of makes me laugh.

you got him wrong on that one. he's not anti-war or pro-NASA. he's just anti-spending-money. in fact he hates NASA just as much as he hates education, regulation, minimum wage, health care, and civil rights.

Re:Too cool

[Antarius]

I would've thought that the 'Mir" in your username would show where your loyalties lie. ;-)

Re:Too cool

[fiannaFailMan]

Why spend 2.5 billion on NASA when you can buy a few more Solyndra's.

Why spend 2.5 billion on NASA when you can buy one B2 stealth bomber?

Re:Too cool

[FussionMan]

Write your local politician to change this. Just a few letters make a huge difference.

Re:Too cool

[Anonymous Coward]

you got him wrong on that one. he's not anti-war or pro-NASA. he's just anti-spending-money. in fact he hates NASA just as much as he hates education, regulation, minimum wage, health care, and civil rights.

You had me at "hates education".

Re:Too cool

[GNUALMAFUERTE]

Absolutely. The countries that would be interested in science for the sake of science, don't have big enough budgets. The countries that do are interested in war (because that's what keeps filling the right pockets). We are out of luck.

Re:Too cool

[MacGyver2210]

Don't lie to yourself, there is no money for them to squeeze out of space exploration so they are diverting it to industries that can provide the biggest kickbacks. Like oil and health care industries or war manufacturing. It has nothing to do with which party or administration, and if you think who you vote for matters in this issue, you haven't been paying attention.

Re:Too cool

[MobileC]

Write your local politician to change this. Just a few letters make a huge difference.

Our local politicians have no influence in the affairs of a foreign nation.

Re:Too cool

[Anonymous Coward]

Why you gotta be racist?

Re:Too cool

[arisvega]

I would've thought that the 'Mir" in your username would show where your loyalties lie. ;-)

And the 'Roman'. And your latin nick!

Re:Too cool

[SilenceBE]

Remember, all American's can have an impact on that decision.

But may I ask - as a European - how you could do that ? It doesn't seem that you can vote on the other guy because from my POV he seems worse then Obama regarding science. And politicians have the habit - once they are in power - not to listen to the public anymore.

We had him for a couple of days here in Europe and the general consensus was that he remind us a lot of Bush junior and that there is potential that he gets your country in another expensive war. The money will need to come from somewhere and the guy didn't come over as particularly bright or somebody who likes intellectual challenges which science provoke.

Re:Too cool

[Anonymous Coward]

"Remember, all American's can have an impact on that decision."

We'd prefer that _you_ refrain from sending letters to our potilician's.
It will only have negative impact's.
They'll think supporter are all moron's.

Re:Too cool

[Anonymous Coward]

I get your point, but to be pedantic, the USA cancelled all further acquisitions of the B-2. Their next-gen stealth bomber will probably cost two or three Curiosity rovers.

Re:Too cool

[Anonymous Coward]

And this was how it was meant to be as they were after all a deeply flawed species. The uncountable star faring races were better off without them and their incessant petty warring.

Re:Too cool

[RaceProUK]

I don't care what it costs, I want a drill sent to Europa...

It's probably cheap enough to send a hand drill to Europa. Don't think it'd be any good, but hey, you get your drill on Europa :)

Re:Too cool

[roman_mir]

hates education

- only a publicly 'educated' AC conflates 'hating' education and being against public funding and regulations for education, same applies to health care.

Civil rights don't exist, there are only individual rights.

Minimum wage shouldn't exist either by the way.

Oh, you are right on the entire 'regulations' thing.

Re:Too cool

[KillaBeave]

Remember, all American's can have an impact on that decision. But may I ask - as a European - how you could do that ? ....

In theory, more local congress-critters are more receptive to their constituents wants/needs than are the national politicians. For example, in my hometown they build the cores for ship/sub nuclear reactors (or is it nuculur ... lol). As you can imagine, it's a very pro-defense spending area and our local politicians do their best to make sure more subs/destroyers/carriers get built.

To make this expensive nasa stuff fly, us US-ians will need enough of the politicians to feel like their constituents have something to gain in the near/medium term from more investment in space exploration. Sadly, outside of the Cape and Houtson ... it's a bit of a hard sell. Sure everyone benefits in the long run, but short term? Really just those precious few congressional districts see any appreciable gain.

What about the moon landing? Well everyone seemingly benefited because we beat those evil commie soviets and showed them who's boss. So I guess here in 'Merica we need one of two things: money to be made and/or a villain to defeat.

Re:Too cool

[Anonymous Coward]

Americans spend >$11B on potato chips annually... they can afford this.

Re:Too cool

[Anonymous Coward]

Why spend 2.5 billion on NASA when you can give it to the banks?

Re:Too cool

[Anonymous Coward]

- only a publicly 'educated' AC conflates 'hating' education and being against public funding and regulations for education, same applies to health care.

The other AC probably meant public education and health care, and just didn't include the word "public" cuz the topic was originally about a publicly funded program (NASA)

See, publicly educated people tend to stick with one context or topic at a time and don't jump around. They don't have the mental capacity to perform the level of mental gymnastics you do.

Re:Too cool

[Hillgiant]

The successor with the the B-2B bomber. There won't actually be a bomber. It will just be a huge funds transfer to the military industrial complex, which will then in turn transfer it to a bunch of sub-contractors. And by "sub-contractors", I mean political donors.

Re:Too cool

[Anonymous Coward]

...or less than a week waging war in Iraq/Afganistan (during 2008 alone).

Re:Too cool

[Sean Riordan]

Ugh ....
Maryland - Goddard Space Flight Center
New Mexico - AF Research Lab - Space Vehicles, Sandia Labs, Los Alamos Labs
Colorado - Ball, Raytheon, etc
California - JPL, Livermore Labs and way too many others to list
Virginia - Navy Research Lab, Wallops Island
Texas - UT Dallas, Texas A&M, Johnson Space Center, many more
Arizona - Orbital Sciences Corp., GD, etc
Tennessee - Oakridge
Alabama - U.S. Space and Rocket Center
Utah -Space Dynamics Laboratory, L3
Florida - Kennedy, ATK and many more
Alaska - Kodiak Island

The space industry is spread out over the entire country. This list could go on and on. Saying it is only Florida and Texas that benefit is mildly absurd. I agree with the idea, but it isn't nearly as narrow as that.

Re:Too cool

[inthealpine]

I'm not saying we should, I'm saying we should not fund bogus green energy projects.

Re:Too cool

[Anonymous Coward]

- only a publicly 'educated' AC conflates 'hating' education and being against public funding and regulations for education, same applies to health care.

you have shown repeatedly that you don't want anyone who cannot afford an education to be able to get an education. you want it to be a privilege of the upper crust rather than a right available to all.

hence you hate education - at least, the way it is set up in every industrialized country in the world.
 
 

Oh, you are right on the entire 'regulations' thing.

i was also right on everything else i said about you.

Re:Too cool

[inthealpine]

So wasting money on Solyndra is okay with you? Sooner or later all the waste become real money and then you wonder why we can't even put a man in space anymore.

Re:Too cool

[mcgrew]

We had him for a couple of days here in Europe and the general consensus was that he remind us a lot of Bush junior and that there is potential that he gets your country in another expensive war.

Historically, probably not. The first 2/3rds of the last century we had peace and recession under Republicans, war and prosperity under Democrats, but ever since Nixon we've had peace ind prosperity under Dems and war and recession under Repubs. Nixon: Vietnam and stagflation. Carter: Peace and stagflation. Reagan: War and prosperity for the rich with hard economics for everyone else. Bush 1, war in Iraq and continued, worsening recession. Clinton: peace and prosperity. Bush II: Two wars and a collapsed economy.

Obama was one of the few who were against the Iraq war from the beginning. I don't see him as a warmonger. However, he really should have provided more change than he did; gitmo's still open, the TSA is still there, PATRIOT act still in effect, and so on.

Re:Too cool

[Eevee]

Our local politicians have no influence in the affairs of a foreign nation.

Speaking as an American, our local politicians have way too much influence in the affairs of many foreign nations.

Re:Too cool

[mcgrew]

To make this expensive nasa stuff fly, us US-ians will need enough of the politicians to feel like their constituents have something to gain in the near/medium term from more investment in space exploration.

So you mean everyone except this guy from jamaica?

Sorry, dude, but US-ian and 'Mercan make you sound like an ignorant, uneducated redneck. There are TWO USes in North America, the United States of America and the United States of Mexico. The USA is referred to as America, the Estados Unidos de Mexico as Mexico. </education>

Re:Too cool

[fiannaFailMan]

No. Is wasting money on the machinery of death okay with you? Frankly I think that answering the greatest question mankind has ever asked, "are we alone in the universe?", is something worth spending a bit of money on.

Re:Too cool

[Jeng]

and the environment was poisoned beyond the ability to sustain life,

If you are interested in us getting off the planet then step one is learning how to live in poisoned environments. Getting off the planet is a process and getting off is the last step of the process, learning to live where you want to live comes before living there.

Re:Too cool

[Anonymous Coward]

His username is just a shortening of his full name.

Freaking incredible.

[Bitsy Boffin]

Just think about this a moment. NASA took a photo from a satellite, of a probe landing on another planet. And they got telemetry relayed about the landing from ANOTHER satellite.

And it's not just a bright pixel, you can clearly see what it is.

Stunning.

Re:Freaking incredible.

[ColdWetDog]

Yes, the detail on the parachute is absolutely amazing. In fact, the whole thing is amazing.

(Looks up furtively, tightens tin foil hat, scrunches down.)

Re:Freaking incredible.

[Anonymous Coward]

HiRISE is impressive. I wonder why this picture has more detail than the one they took of Phoenix?

Re:Freaking incredible.

[gcnaddict]

You're not the first to think that, either. The same message was conveyed by the BadAstronomy blog when the same such shot was released from Phoenix.

Think on this, and think on it carefully: you are seeing a manmade object falling gracefully and with intent to the surface of an alien world, as seen by another manmade object already circling that world, both of them acting robotically, and both of them hundreds of million of kilometers away.

Never, ever forget: we did this. This is what we can do.

Re:Freaking incredible.

[MightyMartian]

But there will always be pathetic yahoos who, out of some desire to make themselves feel important will deny our species' technical abilities.

Re:Freaking incredible.

[Firehed]

I mean that's cool and all, but I think the more significant piece is that the landing was accurate to within 2km with a journey covering nine months and somewhere roughly around 200m km. Scale that down to something we can actually comprehend, and it's using autopilot for 100km and being accurate to within 1mm. Where talking to your co-pilot takes as much as 14 minutes, with another 14 minutes to hear their response.

We've got some damn fine people working on this.

Re:Freaking incredible.

[SomeJoel]

But there will always be pathetic yahoos who, out of some desire to make themselves feel important will deny our species' technical abilities.

Yes, and they will post about it on the Internet without ever sensing the irony.

Re:Freaking incredible.

[MachDelta]

It turns out that space is in metric. Who knew?

Re:Freaking incredible.

[Swampash]

We've got some damn fine people working on this.
And a lot of them will be looking for work after the next round of NASA budget cuts - no matter who wins the next election.

NASA's budget as a fraction of federal spending is 0.48%. That's the lowest it's been since 1960. And it's getting smaller.

Dig on this:

Curiosity project budget: USD 2.5 billion

Cost of "War on Terror" so far: USD 1.36 trillion and counting (yes that's one thousand three hundred and sixty billion)

Re:Freaking incredible.

[Spy Handler]

Reminds me of the story where humans send a robotic probe to another star, and after decades of traveling it finally gets there and beams back the first images. The people at mission control yawn and are hardly excited because they've all seen the images already; during the time the probe was in transit, the aliens from that star already came to earth via warp drive. And the only person in the room who was excited about the whole thing was an alien in attendance, because the aliens have warp technology but they don't have good robotics.

Well if we ever get humans orbiting and living on Mars, these images will seem about as exciting as Columbus's sketches of Bahama island. Just a thought.

Re:Freaking incredible.

[Anonymous Coward]

The difference is this: providing for the national defense of the United States is the constitutional duty of the federal government, funding for science and space projects is not.

BOOM.

Re:Freaking incredible.

[ScentCone]

no matter who wins the next election

I think it's safe to say that if Obama doesn't win the election, NASA's director may get some slightly different marching orders than he got from Obama. Director Bolden, on his meeting with Obama on NASA strategy, mission: " ...perhaps foremost, he wanted me to find a way to reach out to the Muslim world and engage much more with dominantly Muslim nations to help them feel good about their historic contribution to science, math and engineering."

Now if that's not a worthy foremost priority for NASA, I don't know what is. Pumping up the self esteem of the Religion Of Peace seems like it should be lower on the totem pole than a whole lot of other objectives (he said it was more important than expanding NASA's interaction with other country's space programs, and more important than inspiring kids to get into math and the sciences. Neato.

Budget issues aside, I'd like to see the agency's mission drift back towards its real target, in much the way that its scientists just bulls-eyed that landing zone on Mars.

Re:Freaking incredible.

[Brenda Lee Ayala]

Check out nasa's project "lisa pathfinder" was supposed to be launched last year but was apparently moved to 2014?

Re:Freaking incredible.

[InterGuru]

Curiosity project budget: USD 2.5 billion

Cost of "War on Terror" so far: USD 1.36 trillion and counting (yes that's one thousand three hundred and sixty billion)

The $2.5B would hardly serve to bail out one sleazy banker so he can get his bonus.

Re:Freaking incredible.

[GNUALMAFUERTE]

All of space, including most of planet earth. Well, except for some very uneducated areas ;)

Re:Freaking incredible.

[Anonymous Coward]

[(credible) citation needed]

Re:Freaking incredible.

[the gnat]

Director Bolden, on his meeting with Obama on NASA strategy, mission: " ...perhaps foremost, he wanted me to find a way to reach out to the Muslim world and engage much more with dominantly Muslim nations to help them feel good about their historic contribution to science, math and engineering."

This was one throwaway line by a federal bureaucrat in a single substance-free interview, where he was obviously trying to pander to his audience. (And the White House very quickly corrected him, as has been pointed out previously.) Do you really believe that anything NASA has done since then has been designed to further this supposed goal? Please, explain how the Curiosity mission has been corrupted to soothe the feelings of Muslims.

Re:Freaking incredible.

[marcosdumay]

I always tought there were distances there at the US and UK. I mean, as mind blowing crazy that General Relativity is, I don't think it allows any non-metric region.

Re:Freaking incredible.

[poly_pusher]

Decades of traveling and decades of beaming. Just saying... ;)

Re:Freaking incredible.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yah but National Defense is a subset of Military Spending. Why do we need bases in Germany?

Re:Freaking incredible.

[MtViewGuy]

What is totally amazing about that image is not only do you clearly see the shading of the parachute itself, but you also see _in the same picture_ the protective heat shield cover falling away from the lander, too. In short, one of the most amazing images ever produced by NASA. (thumbs up)

Re:Freaking incredible.

[Anonymous Coward]

Curiosity was (is) a much larger target than Phoenix. Plus, the image HiRISE took of Phoenix was at a very oblique angle. And they got luckier.

Re:Freaking incredible.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yep. Point to a single military action in the past couple decades that was actually national defense.

Re:Freaking incredible.

[Quiet_Desperation]

Here in California they just floated $5 billion in bonds for that fuckhead Fossil Brown's full scale choo choo train set. The final bill could cover fifty Mars overs.

This is what you get, you republican and democrat party loyalists, when you put your particular breed of sociopath into office over and over.

Yeah, i know- its the OTHER side that's all stoooopid and evuuul and your team is all ponies and purity. Don't even start in with your red or blue shit. You're ALL guilty.

Re:Freaking incredible.

[Anonymous Coward]

But, the money spent on this war-on-a-concept isn't actually promoting the national defense. It is not making us safer at all, and is actually putting us in greater danger (from an ever-more-powerful and ever-more-corrupt government).

Furthermore, spending money on space exploration is a longer-term furtherance of the goal of national defense, as the knowledge gained can help us develop better orbital defense weapons, and eventually get us off this rock so our species can survive when the Earth becomes unlivable (a guarantee).

Seeing the big picture requires a big mind.

Re:Freaking incredible.

[Quiet_Desperation]

So what you're saying is old stuff gets old.

Re:Freaking incredible.

[Anonymous Coward]

It turns out that space is in metric. Who knew?

But pseudometric spaces are so much more fun... No wormholes in a metric space ;^)

Re:Freaking incredible.

[Joce640k]

I noticed that the White House called this "a great day for America", "a great day for this nation", etc. Repeat ad nauseam.

Would it really have killed them to say "a great day for humanity"? I don't think Americans would have minded.

Imagine if Neil Armstrong had said "that's one small step for (a) man, one giant leap for America".

Re:Freaking incredible.

[gr8_phk]

And it's not just a bright pixel, you can clearly see what it is.

Sure, but the image taken from the surface used a 1 megapixel non-color camera. Talk about low budget...

Also, in spite of all the excitement about Mars, it doesn't really have much of an atmosphere, so being able to get clear pictures from orbit isn't that surprising. They first got images from Mars in the 1970s you know.

Re:Freaking incredible.

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, Obama obviously has his reasons for not liking the space program. One look at this should tell you why. Or maybe a look at this. Notice anything they have in common? And something you don't see in either one of them?

Re:Freaking incredible.

[DerekLyons]

I mean that's cool and all, but I think the more significant piece is that the landing was accurate to within 2km with a journey covering nine months and somewhere roughly around 200m km.

Well, they weren't "accurate within 2km" in the conventional sense - which would mean they came down within 2km of a designated point. Curiosity didn't have a designated point, it had an eclipse and NASA would have been "on target" and considered a success regardless of where it landed in the eclipse. (The far edge of the landing eclipse was almost 10km from the touchdown point.)
 

Scale that down to something we can actually comprehend, and it's using autopilot for 100km and being accurate to within 1mm.

Not quite. There were several course corrections calculated on the ground and sent to and executed by the probe - the last of which was on July 29th. On top of that, the last update of the guidance and flight control system parameters was on August 4th. So, it was only really on autopilot for a little over a week - and still the landing depended on last minute updates to the data used by the autopilot.
 
Don't get me wrong, it's still a fantastic accomplishment... but let's get our facts straight.

Re:Freaking incredible.

[chipschap]

We've got some damn fine people working on this.

Yes, we do, and in the end they'll get precious little support. Think what these people could do with adequate funding and relief from stifling bureaucracy.

Re:Freaking incredible.

[Anonymous Coward]

as an aerospace engineer I'm offended every time someone makes an analogy like this. it's actually not like that at all. there are tiny corrections made along the way, so it's more like you driving on a long straight road with perfect suspension. every now and then you tap the wheel. only at the start or the end do you have to deal with the on/off ramp.

mars is a really big target. point in the general direction, fire the rocket, correct after the big burn and a few times during the trip. wow you're at mars. there are 2 impressive pieces to what they accomplished. 1) design/build a super complicated lander 2) survive reentry. launch and cruise are the most uninteresting and easy parts of the mission.

Re:Freaking incredible.

[jo_ham]

The difference is this: providing for the national defense of the United States is the constitutional duty of the federal government, funding for science and space projects is not.

BOOM.

Not sure how the Iraq war is really "providing for the national defense of the US" though.

Maybe stop the war 2 weeks early and we could fund another couple of these amazing missions to Mars and beyond.

Re:Freaking incredible.

[Anonymous Coward]

Now to apply what has been learned here to the UCAV fleet.

Re:Freaking incredible.

[Joce640k]

I mean that's cool and all, but I think the more significant piece is that the landing was accurate to within 2km with a journey covering nine months and somewhere roughly around 200m km.

To be fair; they've made a few course corrections along the way.

Re:Freaking incredible.

[LordLimecat]

Well, except for some very uneducated areas

Does that include the guys who put this thing up there?

Re:Freaking incredible.

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe because the fact is, this is a triumphant achievement by the USA. It is the political, economic, and cultural mightiness of the United States of America that makes the success of this mission possible. No other nation comes close. That's why its a great day for America and not for anybody else.

Re:Freaking incredible.

[Phrogman]

Actually Bolden said during his address after the landing that 4 other countries had been involved in some way in the Curiousity landing but that he "wasn't going to say who they are", with no reason provided.

Re:Freaking incredible.

[Chuck Chunder]

Australia was specifically mentioned because the comms coming back during the landing came via Australia.

Other countries are involved with the various science instruments on the rover. My impression is that they they weren't mentioned specifically because they didn't want to risk omitting someone. There's a few non Americans listed on the MSL Project Science Group.

Wikipedia lists Canada, Finland, France, Germany, Russia, Spain, United States, United Kingdom as having a role on the instrument team.

Re:Freaking incredible.

[Swampash]

I noticed that the White House called this "a great day for America", "a great day for this nation", etc. Repeat ad nauseam.

Would it really have killed them to say "a great day for humanity"? I don't think Americans would have minded.

As a non-American that's the sort of thing that normally makes me cringe. But you know what? Today I don't give a fuck. NASA has to beg for every cent it gets from the Federal govt and anything NASA does to justify the money it gets is fine by me today.

As a space geek I totally understand why this sort of language is getting used. It's marketing. NASA has to sell this sort of stuff to Bubba the Taxpayer. Bubba don't care about searching for life on other planets. All that science shit is for the nerds Bubba used to bully in highschool. But label it AMERICA KICKING ASS and all of a sudden Bubba does care, and you better believe he's in favor of it.

Turn the whole fucking event into an ad for NASA with a tagline of "AMERICA FUCK YEAH" and then see if either of the Presidential candidates dares go into an election promising to cut space funding. I'll grin and bear it.

Re:Freaking incredible.

[Anonymous Coward]

"I don't think Americans would have minded."

You, apparently, haven't been living in America for the past ten years. Remember, Obama is already a "foreign born muslim" to an embarassingly large segment of the population.

Re:Freaking incredible.

[MightyMartian]

And a nation that can land a 900lb probe within 2km of the planned spot on another planet has developed some pretty impressive technical abilities that potential enemies can see as well.

Re:Freaking incredible.

[The Master Control P]

If only you'd continued past the comma and read the next four words: promote the general Welfare.

I'm not even going to try and describe the number of things we now take for granted that are owed to national spending on both basic and applied research, other than to say that subjecting the rest of us to your ill-informed comment requires several rather important ones. Fantastic as it is sad to see people rant about the tiny sliver of America's national budget marked 'science' that's cumulatively done probably more to improve life for everyone and certainly more to extend human knowledge than all the rest of it combined, while seeing nothing wrong with the government pouring a not insignificant fraction of our entire GDP down a black hole, never to return.

Re:Freaking incredible.

[Anonymous Coward]

Afghanistan.

Re:Freaking incredible.

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

A single reason why he'd want to shut it down?

Re:Freaking incredible.

[nairnr]

If you count that - Australia is always involved as it is part of the Deep Space Network. It just happened to be pointing to it. Madrid would also be mentioned if that was the direction http://deepspace.jpl.nasa.gov/dsn/

Re:Freaking incredible.

[The Master Control P]

Yes! Both sides are exactly equally as bad! One of them having gone completely giggling-with-glee-as-they-drive-off-the-cliff insane doesn't matter, THEY'RE BOTH EXACTLY EQUALLY AS BAD IN EVERY SENSE.

By the way, if you want to have some credibility as a non-partisan, you should avoid explicitly declaring that you won't listen to anyone who disagrees with you. But you have, so there's no point elaborating or in any other way attempting to explain that the (R)s and (D)s are not remotely equally as bad.

Re:Freaking incredible.

[jaymemaurice]

A 1 megapixel non-color camera that is not sensitive to the background radiation of space, extreme temperatures, and survived re-entry.

How much time do you think it would take to send back a high resolution image? How much CPU power do you think this rover has to be able to scale or process the collision avoidance data from these cameras if the camera were higher resolution??

Clearly you don't have a clue. The probe has a high resolution camera on its mast which was not to be deployed until all systems are checked after landing.

Re:Freaking incredible.

[VortexCortex]

Females? The wired link has a few iffy folks in it, but they could just be sexy men...

Re:Freaking incredible.

[Anonymous Coward]

>That previous directive stems from 2004 when, under continuing pressure from its independent inspector general, NASA agreed to conform with US legislation enacted in 1988 that ordered all government departments to move towards the exclusive use of SI units.

From:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17350-nasa-criticised-for-sticking-to-imperial-units.html

Re:Freaking incredible.

[Swampash]

It turns out that space is in metric. Who knew?

NASA did, and it learned the hard way.

http://articles.cnn.com/1999-09-30/tech/9909_30_mars.metric.02_1_climate-orbiter-spacecraft-team-metric-system?_s=PM:TECH

September 30, 1999

CNN NASA lost a 125 million Mars orbiter because a Lockheed Martin engineering team used English units of measurement while the agencys team used the more conventional metric system for a key spacecraft operation, according to a review finding released Thursday.

The units mismatch prevented navigation information from transferring between the Mars Climate Orbiter spacecraft team in at Lockheed Martin in Denver and the flight team at NASAs Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, California.

The navigation mishap killed the mission on a day when engineers had expected to celebrate the crafts entry into Mars orbit.

After a 286 day journey, the probe fired its engine on September 23 to push itself into orbit.

The engine fired but the spacecraft came within 60 km/36 miles of the planet about 100 km closer than planned and about 25 km/15 miles beneath the level at which the it could function properly, mission members said.

The latest findings show that the spacecrafts propulsion system overheated and was disabled as Climate Orbiter dipped deeply into the atmosphere, JPL spokesman Frank ODonnell said.

That probably stopped the engine from completing its burn, so Climate Orbiter likely plowed through the atmosphere, continued out beyond Mars and now could be orbiting the sun, he said.

Re:Freaking incredible.

[EETech1]

And they planned that (a couple years ago) so it would be there to take that picture so they can show us just how fscking awesome they really are.

You guys kick ass!

Re:Freaking incredible.

[Anonymous Coward]

Very well said. I wish I had mod points.

Re:Freaking incredible.

[Waccoon]

Remember: Mars is in orbit, so you have to calculate where your landing pad will be after 9 months, taking into consideration planetary rotation and relativistic effects.

Like trying to land a glider on an airborne helicopter pad -- and doing it gently.

Re:Freaking incredible.

[jolle]

Yes, those HP printers get better and better: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AoAJOF5GVQ

Re:Freaking incredible.

[Anonymous Coward]

"It turns out that space is in metric. Who knew?"

The guys who shut off the landing thrusters at 2.54 times the real distance some time ago?

Re:Freaking incredible.

[Ouilsen]

You mean the funding of the Taliban? Or the invasion to kill the Taliban... err :-Z.

Re:Freaking incredible.

[hackertourist]

Huh? Where in the picture is the heat shield cover, and why doesn't the NASA page mention this?

Re:Freaking incredible.

[Anonymous Coward]

"And a nation that can land a 900lb probe within 2km of the planned spot on another planet has developed some pretty impressive technical abilities that potential enemies can see as well."

They already demonstrated that with the 117 weddings they bombarded within a yard.

Re:Freaking incredible.

[tp1024]

Be quick with such posts, so long as the Americans are still asleep. My own post on that yesterday reached +5 Insightful by noon, dropping to 0 within another 4 hours or so as Americans went back to work err... the internet.

Re:Freaking incredible.

[Joce640k]

Carl Sagan's "Pale Blue Dot" was never more relevant.

Re:Freaking incredible.

[Anonymous Coward]

"Never, ever forget: we did this. This is what we can do."

Unless "we" are BLACK... LOL

Re:Freaking incredible.

[kevingolding2001]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSQ5EsbT4cE&feature=player_detailpage#t=120s

Re:Freaking incredible.

[petsounds]

I don't think any Presidential candidate has ever used cutting NASA as a campaign slogan. It's one of things they just don't talk about, and then slash on page 1,345 of the budget. You're wrong about the Bubba thing. Most Americans in their 30s and beyond have a certain reverence for NASA. The Apollo missions and all that. But it's a reverence in abstract because people don't think about the budget. Most Americans have no idea how much is spent on this and that in the Federal government.

Obama certainly doesn't seem to care about space exploration and doesn't seem to care about science in general (for instance, his 2013 budget shuts down our $3M underwater ocean exploration agency, which funds America's only underwater sea station). Sadly, I guess most Democrats don't care either, as they haven't really shaken their fists en masse. Oh sure, everyone is "America fuck yea!" about Curiosity right now, but within a couple days they will go about their normal routine of posting on Facebook.

I guarantee you though, if China lands some people on the moon, Americans of all political stripes (and *especially* the gun-totin' ones) will perk up and start asking why America is being beaten by the Commies. The only way NASA is getting more funding is if there's another space race.

I know most people on slashdot feel that unmanned missions are the best use of funds for planetary destinations, but putting Americans on another planet is the only way to re-associate NASA with patriotism, and patriotism seems to be the best way of securing funding. Not just patriotism, but the emotional connection. People see Curiosity and it's cool like the way they look at a new gadget. But if they saw Americans walking around on another planet, that's drama. Americans crave that.

I also think not putting an instrument on Curiosity that can detect living organisms was a huge, huge mistake. How long until we get another rover on Mars that has this capability? At this rate, perhaps never.

Re:Freaking incredible.

[Joce640k]

Obama certainly doesn't seem to care about space exploration and doesn't seem to care about science in general

But ... he was on Mythbusters!

Re:Freaking incredible.

[Joce640k]

You, apparently, haven't been living in America for the past ten years.

Ya got me there...

Re:Freaking incredible.

[Anonymous Coward]

Arguing over Obama and Romney is like arguing over who gets to lick the toilet seat.

Worse, the American population is so stupid, most don't even realize their "vote for president" literally doesn't matter. Most don't realize that if they actually wanted to make a difference, they would have voted in the previous federal election and written to make their presidential desires known.

But, in stead of anything close to intelligence, we get hundreds of millions of Americans fighting over who gets to lick a very nasty toilet seat.

Re:Freaking incredible.

[MtViewGuy]

Here's the picture from Phil Plait's Bad Astronomy blog on Discover magazine's web site:

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2012/08/06/curiosity-update-heat-shield-spotted/

Re:Freaking incredible.

[camperdave]

Sigh! It's not about the megapixels. It's about the optics in front of the megapixels, and the optics in front of the megapixels are phenomenal. As to the non-color, ALL digital cameras are non-color. They just have a clever filter in front of each of the pixels to ensure that only the red, green, or blue light gets to the particular filter. Curiosity's camera has an assortment of filters for specific jobs: infrared, for example. So, since the landscape is basically static, Curiosity can put its red, green, and blue filters in place sequentially, and capture an image equivalent to a camera with three times the megapixelage.

Re:Freaking incredible.

[Jason Levine]

Here's Mars Curiosity on a scale people can conceive of: Go to New York City and throw a single red blood cell so that it hits a dartboard in Orlando, Florida a millimeter from dead center. If a fictional superhero was displayed as being that accurate, people would laugh at how unrealistic it is. And yet, NASA did it.

Re:Freaking incredible.

[Quiet_Desperation]

No, I said don't bother with the red/blue shit. I get the same robotic script from the partisans every time. At some point one gives up and moves on.

Re:Freaking incredible.

[jdavidb]

Okay, you've got me sold. I'm a radical libertarian, and I don't believe the government should engage in either, but in keeping with the Pareto principle I'll concentrate on eliminating the war on terror first. That should allow NASA projects like this to go on for a very long time. :)

Re:Freaking incredible.

[Russ1642]

It's not a bullet. You don't aim it from Earth and then it lands on Mars. Course corrections are made many times along the way, and the entire entry itself is guided the whole way in. So it's like hitting your parking space after driving across the country.

Re:Freaking incredible.

[Swampash]

He's also professes to be a faithful Christian - so he's either telling the truth, in which case he isn't committed to seeking answers through science, or he's lying, in which case he can't be trusted. Either way, it ain't good.

Re:Freaking incredible.

[The Master Control P]

Yep, you're sooooo much smarter than the rest of us stupid robotic sheeple. You've got it all figured out. And anyone disagreeing only proves that you're right!

Anytime you think that last statement, raise SIGABRT and enter debug mode - because it's 100% diagnostic of having executed a cognitive bug and entered into an infinite self-confirming-delusion loop.

Re:Freaking incredible.

[Swampash]

Note: I will confess to feeling severe cringe when John Holdren was proclaiming that the USA is the first country to land a probe on another planet. Because it isn't.

Re:Freaking incredible.

[Quiet_Desperation]

All I figured out is that there is no figuring it out.

Cheer up. It's nearly... Um... Christmas!

Image sources

[Ryanrule]

Tiff images

http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/tiff/

XML source file for day 0

http://landingimagecatalog-1450153822.us-west-1.elb.amazonaws.com/landing/images_sol0.xml

Re:Image sources

[Ryanrule]

This one is real nice

pl.nasa.gov/msl-raw-images/proj/msl/redops/ods/surface/sol/00000/opgs/edr/fcam/FRA_397506083EDR_F0010008AUT_04096M_.JPG

Re:Image sources

[X0563511]

Bad link. If I guess, and try it on photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov, I get a nice old 404. (and verbatim as you have it, also bad)

Re:Image sources

[Ryanrule]

oops, missed some copy/paste

http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/msl-raw-images/proj/msl/redops/ods/surface/sol/00000/opgs/edr/fcam/FRA_397506083EDR_F0010008AUT_04096M_.JPG

Re:Image sources

[Ryanrule]

Color image of lander going down

http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/msl-raw-images/msss/00000/mrdi/0000MD9999000036I1_DXXX.jpg

Re:Image sources

[GNUALMAFUERTE]

That's actually the heat shield in free-fall.

Re:Image sources

[necro81]

On a related note: I understand the value of the TIFF format, but why the hell does it have to be so hard to find a decent viewer for them? Why isn't TIFF support baked into every OS and browser, the way it is with jpeg, gif, png, bmp, etc?

Re:Image sources

[X0563511]

Nice! thanks for correcting that, haven't seen that one yet.

Re:Image sources

[Ryanrule]

Windows 7 can...

Re:Image sources

[Anonymous Coward]

I simply have to ask - where and when did zero degrees longitude on Mars get set? Who set it?

I don't quite get

[buchner.johannes]

why http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/ didn't release a sequence of pictures? It'd be so awesome! Perhaps the other ones are blurry ...

Re:I don't quite get

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm waiting for pictures from the descent camera. Should be awesome.

Re:I don't quite get

[PPH]

From TFA:

"If HiRISE took the image one second before or one second after, we probably would be looking at an empty Martian landscape," said Sarah Milkovich, HiRISE investigation scientist at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, Calif.

This might be the only frame they got with Curiosity in view. HiRISE was moving pretty fast over the scene.

Re:I don't quite get

[Chuck Chunder]

"The Curiosity Mars Descent Imager (MARDI) captured the rover's descent to the surface of the Red Planet. The instrument shot 4 fps video from heatshield separation to the ground." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcGMDXy-Y1I

Photography has come a long way

[lemur3]

I think something missed in all of this is how powerful imagery is.

Imagine a world without photographs ?

This mission, and ones before it.. highlight how important this invention, photography, is.

We have photographs of this on its chute landing.. this is the second time we've done it.. and we got photographs back as soon as it landed.. This is great... and the excitement of the crew, and the public, upon seeing these images is a testament to how far photography has come in the past 150ish years.

Kudos to all of those who made this happen.. for the science it will do.. and further affirming the power of images in our world..

Re:Photography has come a long way

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not that I disagree, but photography is about the least impressive thing that happened here.

Re:Photography has come a long way

[Anonymous Coward]

photography is done for the non-scientists so people can understand what the scientists do. every deep space picture you've ever seen is false color. pictures of mars, jupiter, saturn, and even the sun are false color b/c they look cooler. if you were to look at famous nebulae, they'd be dark. they're analyzing the infrared spectrum and calling that part red, they're calling the ultraviolet part purple. real pictures are black and white.

I'm sure most of you already know this,

[gcnaddict]

I neglected to mention the obvious point in my submission that this was HiRISE's second such shot.

http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/phoenix-descent.php

The first shot of the sort was this one from the Phoenix lander.

Goosebumps

[Anonymous Coward]

This image - and everything it took to take it - gives me goosebumps.

A picture of a probe, taken from an orbiting satellite - all on a different planet, and all done without direct human control.

This could be my generation's earthrise photo - proof that mankind is stretching beyond Earth.

Totally Agree

[SuperKendall]

I was somewhat amazed the whole landing worked, so many complex parts that had to work together...

And then like you say - a casual snap shot from above of the thing on descent! Too amazing.

I'll put on several hats just to take them all off for all the NASA engineers on this one. It was a really spectacular success and it was fantastic how well they did at getting visual confirmation right off the bat before it went into radio silence.

Re:Totally Agree

[VortexCortex]

I was somewhat amazed the whole landing worked, so many complex parts that had to work together...

You have clearly never ejaculated in a female before.

For God's sake

[Penurious Penguin]

Don't let Richard Hoagland get a hold of this!

Re:For God's sake

[Maritz]

Hoooaaaaaglaaaaaand..!!!!! There's an alien civilisation in the parachute!

Brings back memories of the 1960s

[tralfaz2001]

This photo is so astounding that it brings back memories of the 1960s moon landing days. I was totally enthralled by the awesome techno-wizardry it took set, not one, but two men on the moon, and bring them back to earth. The techno wizardry needed to pull this shot off seems the equal of the feats of those heady days. Well done NASA, well done.

Cheap Mission

[ThePeices]

What amazes me is how cheap the entire MSL mission is...

The entire budget was only 4 days in Iraq/Afghanistan, or approx USD$2.5billion.

NASA's entire budget is less than what the US Army spends on air-conditioning in Iraq/Afghanistan ( USD$20 billion ).

I. Kid. You. Not.

Re:Cheap Mission

[ScentCone]

And which mission is the one trying to prevent another entire generation in that region from falling under the control of a bunch of medieval-minded religious thugs who drag school teachers out into the town square and shoot them in the head in front of their students for talking about current events and science? You know, things like landing an SUV on Mars with the help of female scientists who are allowed to drive themselves to work where they can talk to men, read and write, and make a living doing science.

You're right. We can only do one thing at a time. We should focus on more rovers, and tell the Taliban that they're welcome to roll that region back into the Dark Ages again, and do their level best to work their way into more influence in nuclear-armed Pakistan.

Or maybe it is possible to do two things, possibly even three things, at once? In the interests of both practicing fantastic science like this, and endeavoring to show the world that Western Civilization thinks its rude to burn down school houses for daring to talk about it. Nah, that's crazy talk, right?

Re:Cheap Mission

[Anonymous Coward]

Here's a hint boy, people cost more than robots.

If this amazes you, you need go get off the computer, and go to back to school.

Re:Cheap Mission

[Anonymous Coward]

I think the implication is that the government's spending priorities are a bit off, since the value of NASA's research and development is far greater than the value of our efforts in Iraq/Afghanistan, and it would make sense to scale back those military operations a bit and ramp up space-exploration just a tad.

Space exploration is the *only* way we will find *any* means of ensuring the long-term survival of our species. Without it, our goose is cooked.

Re:Cheap Mission

[FussionMan]

2.5 billon is really a very small amount for a country of over 300 million people with a GDP of over 15 trillion. These missions help increase human knowledge and lead to a higher standard of living for all humanity.

Re:Cheap Mission

[Gothmolly]

And if the US leaves that middle eastern shithole, you can bet with certainty that no kid from that place will ever set foot on another planet.

Re:Cheap Mission

[Anonymous Coward]

Well that's technically not a problem -- just a nice to have really. There's plenty of other people elsewhere that are able to set foot on another planet when the time comes. You're letting your emotions get the best of you here.

Re:Cheap Mission

[AB3A]

Slashdot moderators Pay attention:

How is it trolling when Scentcone responds to a highly rated moronic comment regarding the Budget of the US?

You rated it trolling because you disagree with it? You moderated a moronic comment up because you agree with it? What do you think that does to the Slashdot readership?

I used to frequent this forum because it was funny, incisive, informative, interesting, and all of those good things. Now it's just an amalgamation of links I have already seen elsewhere with moderators who can't seem to understand what their role is for this forum. I find myself watching this web site less and less.

This is no longer news for nerds. This is news for politically perverted idiots who can not tolerate honest dissent.

Re:Cheap Mission

[jaymemaurice]

This guy is right. Iraq never had universities - there were no phds, engineers or scientists. Hell, they didn't even have roads or their own infrastructure to drill and refine their oil... at least after it all fell apart in the 80's during the peak of involvement, ignore that detail.

The sad reality is that it seems the middle east shithole is only such as result from giants using it as a place to shit.

Re:Cheap Mission

[Anonymous Coward]

maybe it is possible to do two things, possibly even three things, at once?

Apparently not. After over a decade of slaughter the Taliban still are not defeated, and formerly secular Iraq is now mostly run by religious fanatics while its educational system, previously the best in the entire region outside of Israel, is in utter collapse. So what have we gained for a trillion and a half dollars? A dramatic increase in international terrorism, more and cheaper opium on the world market than any time in history, hundreds of thousands of dead civilians and the permanent enmity of their survivors, an unbelievable level of corruption and violence in both Afghanistan and Iraq, and thousands of dead or crippled American soldiers. In comparison Curiosity is the bargain of the century.

Re:Cheap Mission

[leromarinvit]

I don't like the Taliban. At all. They're a bunch of lying, autocratic, misogynistic, terrorizing, hypocritical warlord assholes (and a whole lot of other choice words). Yet I wholly agree that the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan were huge, obvious mistakes from day one.

People tend to get fed up with oppressive governments rather quickly. Given time, they'll take care of them all by themselves, as history has shown repeatedly. Unless, of course, an invading army comes along, bombing your country back to the stone age. Then it's easy for the most hated dictator to call for unity against the common enemy.

Re:Cheap Mission

[Anonymous Coward]

http://costsofwar.org/article/education-universities-iraq-and-us/

When I was being a vocal critic of the war in 2003, it never ceased to amaze me how little of conditions in Iraq Americans actually knew...

Re:Cheap Mission

[Shadukar]

posting to undo my incorrect moderation. This is a good post - maybe offtopic and it is sad that it has to be said but never the less it says what needs to be said.

Re:Cheap Mission

[radio4fan]

And which mission is the one trying to prevent another entire generation in that region from falling under the control of a bunch of medieval-minded religious thugs...

Neither. The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have exactly as much to do with women, education and religious freedom as they have to do with exploring Mars.

Which is to say, nothing at all.

Re:Cheap Mission

[EETech1]

I used one of my 30+ shell accounts to mod you up because I already commented on this story.

I kid.. I kid...

Re:Cheap Mission

[f3rret]

You're right. We can only do one thing at a time. We should focus on more rovers, and tell the Taliban that they're welcome to roll that region back into the Dark Ages again...

Yeah we should Europe had a dark age and then we turned into you guys and modern day Europe. Maybe the "dark ages"-stage of civilization is important and this whole "we can fix it (with bombing)"-attitude is not completely correct.

and do their level best to work their way into more influence in nuclear-armed Pakistan.

Pakistan controls the Taliban, not the other way around. Pakistan WANTS the Taliban to win because then they have a radical Pashtu controlled country loyal to them.

Re:Cheap Mission

[Anonymous Coward]

Slashdot moderators Pay attention:

How is it trolling when Scentcone responds to a highly rated moronic comment regarding the Budget of the US?

You rated it trolling because you disagree with it? You moderated a moronic comment up because you agree with it? What do you think that does to the Slashdot readership?

I used to frequent this forum because it was funny, incisive, informative, interesting, and all of those good things. Now it's just an amalgamation of links I have already seen elsewhere with moderators who can't seem to understand what their role is for this forum. I find myself watching this web site less and less.

This is no longer news for nerds. This is news for politically perverted idiots who can not tolerate honest dissent.

Aw..you're so sad? Want some cookies and maybe a warm blankie and a hug?

Being sad sucks.

Re:Cheap Mission

[f3rret]

And if the US leaves that middle eastern shithole, you can bet with certainty that no kid from that place will ever set foot on another planet.

Yeah, and?

The world is a harsh and uncaring place, the idea that we can "fix it" or "make it better" is at best needlessly romantic and at worst actually culturally damaging.
There are periods in the developing of a stable civilization/nation where a lot of people have to die and a lot more have to go through unimaginable hell, these periods are important and have to happen.

Re:Cheap Mission

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't forget that the US is also the REASON for all of that. We wanted to prevent certain countries from becoming powerful. So we helped less than reputable people take office. Trained them in the very terrorist tactics they are using against us. Remember it was the US that fought the first major guerrilla war against the british. Doing things like targeting officers, ambushing supply convoys, sound familiar?

Re:Cheap Mission

[Jason Levine]

I'd argue that the war in Afghanistan was inevitable after 9-11. We were attacked so of course we were going to attack back. Of course, what we *should* have done was keep focused on Afghanistan instead of diverting resources to Iraq. Without Iraq, we might have finished our mission in Afghanistan earlier and thus saved money in the long term versus the current situation.

Sadly, I don't share your view about people living under oppressive governments. The government usually controls the media, schools, etc. People grow up only knowing the way of life that the government wants them to know. They see the vast powers of the government's army and don't rise up en masse because doing so would be more dangerous for them and their family than keeping their head down and being quiet. If they do rise up, they stand a very good chance of being beaten down (due to the government having more resources/weapons/power), thus dissuading more people from rebelling. Even if they rise up and overthrow the oppressive government, the resistance will often fall into the trap of becoming an oppressive government once in power. This isn't to say that we should march in and overthrow every oppressive government. Just that you can't simply count on the oppressed people to rise up and install a perfectly-fair government really quickly.

Re:Cheap Mission

[Anonymous Coward]

The US put the Taliban in power because they thought it was the better option compared to communists. If they hadn't interfered then, it'd be just another ex-soviet country. All of the recent mess with Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran, Somalia... is originally due to US interference trying to destroy democratic or otherwise organized and relatively benign governments. Now they're all WE MUST FIGHT TEH EVIL which they themselves put in power a couple decades ago. Sorry if the rest of the world is not impressed.

Re:Cheap Mission

[Jeng]

At no point did the original poster say that "we can only do one thing at a time", Scentcone did and that was the basis of his entire post. Without the "we can only do one thing at a time" argument his post makes no sense.

So the reason for the moderation isn't that his views are unpopular, it's that he is arguing against an argument that wasn't made.

Here is the original post.

What amazes me is how cheap the entire MSL mission is...

The entire budget was only 4 days in Iraq/Afghanistan, or approx USD$2.5billion.

NASA's entire budget is less than what the US Army spends on air-conditioning in Iraq/Afghanistan ( USD$20 billion ).

I. Kid. You. Not.

Re:Cheap Mission

[AB3A]

Have you never read an implied argument?

These are disparate expenditures. They are not related in any way. The implications were that
1) MSL was "cheap", so we should be doing more of this at the expense of the war effort.
2) War is expensive (Have you ever heard of a cheap war?)

These expenditures come from a politically negotiated budget. The implication was that somehow we should conflate expenditures on one thing with expenditures of the other. In other words, the OP was off topic and foolishly so besides.

And since this discussion is off topic, my contribution to it will end here. Babble amongst yourselves if you like.

Re:Cheap Mission

[Jeng]

Have you never read an implied argument?

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

The implication was that somehow we should conflate expenditures on one thing with expenditures of the other

In order to explain how something expensive is cheap you have to compare it to other expensive things. If both are being done by the same government then it is easier to compare.

also

NASA's budget is a constant issue, but anything truly interesting that NASA wants to do that can be done by the air force usually is done by the air force.

Re:Cheap Mission

[Jeng]

Have you never read an implied argument?

I looked it up just to be sure, and you'll love the first hit.

http://www.experienceproject.com/question-answer/An-Argument-May-Have-Either-An-Implied-Premise-Or-An-Implied-Conclusion/9798

You have to be very careful on these though. For example on EP I notice a LOT of people who think they are the 'creme of the creme' on AP actually ASSUME implied premises when there are none and so they come up with completely wacked out answers to questions, that seem reasonable to others. Unfortunately I also notice that there are a lot of followers on this site as well who look up to these people because they have some sort of charisma and state their answers very arrogantly and confidently- and in doing so they are modeling for others wrong thinking and passing it on without realizing it.

Re:Cheap Mission

[shutdown -p now]

And which mission is the one trying to prevent another entire generation in that region from falling under the control of a bunch of medieval-minded religious thugs who drag school teachers out into the town square and shoot them in the head in front of their students for talking about current events and science? You know, things like landing an SUV on Mars with the help of female scientists who are allowed to drive themselves to work where they can talk to men, read and write, and make a living doing science.

You do realize that US is currently supporting a regime in Afghanistan which enacted a constitution that says, "in Afghanistan, no law can be contrary to the beliefs and provisions of the sacred religion of Islam"? That this constitution is used, among other things, to justify death penalty for converting from Islam to another religion? That, under the same guise, laws were enacted that effectively legalize spousal rape?

Taliban may be medieval, but the present administration of Afghanistan is no better. They are less fanatical about their religion, but just as medieval in their outlook. If you really want to fix things there, you need to ditch the mujis altogether and institute a secular dictatorship, directly backing the minority of the population that would actually be willing and able to enact the reforms necessary to drag the country out of middle age. In other words, what Soviets did there in mid-70s before mujis kicked them out (with your help, I must add!). Or, if you prefer, something akin to what you did in Japan after WW2. Or the Philippines in the first third of the century.

The problem is that you instead keep going off the bullshit "democracy" argument - America bringing freedom and democracy to the poor oppressed people of Afghanistan, yadda yadda. Problem is, democracy in Afghanistan today means stonings and beheadings. In fact, Taliban enjoys wide popular support in many regions, because locals see their brutal law as the only thing that could reign in the lawlessness under the warlords (the same guys who now form the government), under which random rapes and murders were routine. If you want progress there in near future, you have to impose it - by force. Open more schools and universities, and enforce integration between sexes there, with quotas for females if needed. Actively push out propaganda against the anti-progressive traditional practices of the Afghan society (like extreme misogyny widespread around Pashtuns), as well as everything associated with fundamentalist Islam. And repress any Islamist opposition to such reforms, even if they only use words rather than guns - words are by far more important here. Then maybe we'll see Afghan female scientists driving to work one day.

As it is, right now you're spending 6 billion dollars per month in Afghanistan to maintain a puppet regime that is barely friendly to the West even on paper, and practically useless in practice as it lacks popular support. Does that sound like a good ROI to you?

If I had mod points, you would get one.

[xmark]

Thoughtful analysis untainted by political correctness is getting scarce these days. Which by definition means it's getting more valuable.

descent video

[Anonymous Coward]

There's also a video of the descent:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcGMDXy-Y1I

Events
* 0:15: heat shield drops
* 0:18: detachment from parachute, with corresponding acceleration towards the surface
* 0:19: rockets kick in to slow things down
* 0:44: dust is kicked up from the jets
* 0:48: wheels deployed
* 0:53: touchdown

Re:money...

[Artifakt]

Competition s a basic tendency of humans. 2 billion dollars spent on getting an advanced robot to do something extremely difficult is so much better than competing to build more nuclear weapons, stealth drones, and cruise missiles, that disparaging it is counter your and my personal survival. The people who are hyper-paranoid will not stop feeling like all life is a savage competition because you criticise any non-violent competition between peoples groups or nations as not living up to your definition of 'loving'. Instead they will put all their competitive drive into making the whole planet into a smouldering pile of rubble in a misguided and delusional effort to wipe out everyone who even might be a potential enemy. If you want them to stop that, you learn to respect when competition gets focused into technological achievement, excellence in sports, creating art or pure science or even just persuing a harmless hobby, and not just taking care of people.
            Sure, you can tell them that a civilised country proves it's the freeest and best by building a better and better safety net for its citizens, feeding its poor, finding meaningful work for everyone, educating all citizens, and other such dreams if you want, and some of the hyper-competitive paranoids will listen a little and get on the bandwagon and grow out of being so afraid, but if you keep slamming everything else but basic care of the poor, all you will do is drive those people back into their caves, where they currentlly keep about 3,000 Megatons of very bad solutions to the problem of the poor and all those other things that just might be good in your eyes.
          Curiosity is about a lot more than just looking at some rocks, but even if you reduced it to that, how is it in any way morally inferior to spending about the same amount figuring out how to put Cobalt-60 jackets on thermonuclear weapons, just so you can make not only human life extinct but clear the planet of bacterial life as well? Spending 2 billion on preserving the 'vitally important' model railroading hobby is better than building more death machines. An Olympics is better than more instruments of totalitarian population control. Finding a cure for male pattern baldness is better than inventing weaponized Ebola. While we are at it, any of those things are better than rewarding bankers for screwing up everyone else's economy,. If you can waste your energy on sarcasm and insults for a program like Curiosity, just what are you willing to say to the Pentagon procurement offices, the TARP system, or Wall street in general? If you are not screaming at them, at the top of your lungs ,every second of every waking day, your responses are not sanely proportionate.

Not a troll

[gr8_phk]

I'd mod you up too if I had points. Troll is completely unwarranted.

@MarsCuriosity

[Anonymous Coward]

@MarsCuriosity. ..FYI, I aim to send bigger, color pictures from Mars later this week once I've got my head up & Mastcam active #MSL...

Space metric? No way!

[neoshroom]

Actually, space is all in the English system. By a strange coincidence most of the aliens have 12 fingers, 3 toes and 1760 of an appendage we have no name for, so it makes the math easier and is more logical.

Re:Space metric? No way!

[radtea]

Jesus Christ I wish I had mod points for this. I'm sitting at my desk trying not to laugh so hard I fall over!

Re:money...

[pclminion]

If you take 2,000,000,000 dollars, buying a 10 dollar meal, you could have bought 200,000,000 people meals.

Hunger is a social/political problem. It is not due to a lack of food resources. You could drop $2 billion that way, and the next day, all those people would still be hungry. If you're going to spend $2 billion to stop hunger I can think of, well, about an infinite number of ways to do it that would be more productive than that.

Hey! There's the face of Jesus!

[BenSchuarmer]

just above and to the left of that parachute!

Re:money...

[Anonymous Coward]

Crap, and I just blew all my mod points.

Aren't you ignoring very important detail

[Kartu]

Aren't you ignoring a very important detail: NASA budget is negligible compared to spending on "preventing entire region from falling under the control" of taliban?

"Doing only one thing at a time" in this context is like saying "oh, I can't help my kid construct a Lego house, since I'm already building a real house", duh...

arches, circles, bell curves

[Mister Liberty]

Mars has it all, even without any intelligent life yet.

Re:Black and white cameras?

[serviscope_minor]

Amazing! mark-t has a revelation which he just has to share with the boffins at NASA. If only they had consulted him first...

Heck, these days doesn't black-and-white actually cost *MORE* than color?

No.

A B&W Camera is a colour camera without the Bayer filter. The CCDs generally cost the about same, and are marginally cheaper to make. Colour cameras are also very much less sensitive because they filter the incoming light a lot. Specifically, they filter out all the near-IR which is what the cameras happen to be most sensitive to.

And wouldn't color be capable of giving more information than what they get from black-and-white anyways

Only if you're interested in 3 rather broad bands in the visible spectrum. The colour filters aren't that accurate.

quality of first images

[Max_W]

The first impression is important. All know that.

Then why Curiosity's first images are of worse quality than those of "Lunokhod 1" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunokhod_1 in 1970?

Yes the percentage of sulfate in rocks is important, but we want to see HD color images and HD videos from Mars. Real time. Not when someone important decides to release a black and white photo.

Re:quality of first images

[Max_W]

Why "Troll"? It would be a good marketing step to send an effective HD video and photos immediately on landing.

In this universe everything is marketing and selling. Everything. Since money was invented in Mesopotamia about 5000 - 6000 years ago.

The HD color camera weighs about 3 ounces (100 grams). 99% of people will never pay attention to the "Curiosity" anymore. But it had its chance on landing. The whole world was watching. I've heard people were saying on seeing first black and white blurry photos: "This is it?", "My phone makes better pictures."

And then complaints that they do not get enough money for missions.

Re:quality of first images

[Max_W]

I fly Ardrone2 http://ardrone2.parrot.com/ quadrocopter. It can record HD video on USB stick during flight.

I know that aerial videos are often interesting and revealing about an area. Why did not they make such a video on landing? We could see the Gale crater, Mount Sharp ourselves from above, with our own eyes, in high quality, in color. USB stick weighs about 10 grams (1/3 ounces).

Such videos could cause a real interest in society to exploration.

Re:Black and white cameras?

[drkim]

Bandwidth and processing power. At the moment it has better things to do than send pictures.

But don't worry, it's got a color camera and even a stereo camera, so we'll get better pic soon.

Thank your Jewish 'masters' for that

[Anonymous Coward]

You thank the Jews who run Congress for that - they're too busy stealing YOUR labour in the form of taxes to pay for endless wars against 'precious' Israel's enemies, which YOUR people have to go and fight, to 'save the Jews'...
Didn't see any Africans in Mission Control either- why is that? Surely not because they're not intelligent enough...

Key information missing

[RivenAleem]

Was there Cake?

Nice camera!

[micahjc]

It's hard to believe that detail is possible from the top of a multi-story building. Amazing!

NASA Director Charles Bolden Disingenuous

[Anonymous Coward]

I cannot believe that he could show his face at JPL after killing Mars exploration

Re:money...

[Anonymous Coward]

Obama gave the great state of Massachusetts 11.7b, but less than 100 permanent jobs were created; the rest was frittered away by local corrks for things like pensions and disability settlements. Curiosity created something like 7-10,000 jobs.

BTW, Curiosity cost 1.8b; the rest was launch and operations.

Carl Sagan must be rolling in his grave

[Anonymous Coward]

Mars exploration has ended with this mission and you can politics and Bolden.

NASA director Bolden is part of the whole manned-mission pork machine that has been poaching from JPL for decades. Sagan created the Planetary Society to stop this poaching but it is happening again. NASA's Space Launch System (SLS) has been called the "Rocket To Nowhere" because it has not mission or target--its sole purpose is to create jobs in Houston. ...
“When’s the next lander on Mars? The answer to that is nobody knows,” Bolden said in a recent interview with The Associated Press. Bull. He knows and it is "Never"

Budget numbers in context

[bd580slashdot]

Giant numbers should be presented in context.

Whenever I hear giant numbers for budgets I like to compare them to other things to know what they mean. A good comparison is one that everyone or almost everyone can relate to. I like to use the cost to raise everyone on earth out of extreme poverty, which means clean water, food, clothes and shelter.

Ending extreme poverty would cost less than $200 billion each year.

(source: Jeffrey Sachs - The end of poverty)

The UN has similiar numbers from the millenium goals.

The United States military budget is $500 billion to $1.5 trillion. $500 billion doesn't count the middle east wars, interest on war debt, veterans benefits or spending by the States.)

Plus a recent analysis of Deptartment of Labor Statistics by the PERI institute shows that for every billion dollars that we spend on the military we LOSE from 5,000 to 15,000 jobs compared to spending the money on green jobs, hwalth or education. That's because the military isn't very labor intensive. It takes more people to teach effectively than to kill effectively.

Anyway, remember it only costs $200 billion to end extreme poverty globally. Think about that next time you hear a big budget item come up.

I'm off topic I know. Context matters. And for those of you who think "So what? Congress will never go for military cuts." go watch Lawrence Lessig talk about "How money corrupts Congress, and a plan to stop it."

Re:Budget numbers in context

[fiannaFailMan]

go watch Lawrence Lessig talk about "How money corrupts Congress, and a plan to stop it."

Can you give me the Cliff Notes? I'm all ears. The military industrial complex has spread itself into so many congressional districts that I don't see how their lobbying power can ever be blunted.