Breakthrough In Drawing Complex Venn Diagrams: Goes to 11

Looks nice, but let's be honest by Lord+Lode · 2012-08-12 02:06 · Score: 5, Insightful

Visually, you don't really get fast useful information out of it, it's too hard to map a certain part of it to exactly which 11 regions it contains...

Re:Looks nice, but let's be honest by Anonymous Coward · 2012-08-12 02:24 · Score: 2, Funny

I wonder if people dabbling in haruspicy see things the same way.
Re:Looks nice, but let's be honest by Anonymous Coward · 2012-08-12 03:09 · Score: 2, Insightful

I hope yours is just a snide remark, but, just so no one is confused, the mathematicians who did this were definitely NOT trying to display information graphically. Their may be (useful) implications of this research, but there was never an intent that it be for some kind of typography.
Re:Looks nice, but let's be honest by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · 2012-08-12 04:32 · Score: 4, Interesting

This. They just found a clever way to jam too much information onscreen at once.
Of course it's pretty -- Spirograph drawings are!
This reminds me vaguely of Chernoff Faces, which were an attempt to give people viewing 4D or higher data a "feel" for it, since you can't really visualize 4D drawings. It takes advantage of brain circuitry for recognizing faces using many different little hard-wired things, like eye position, mouth width, and so on.

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(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
Re:Looks nice, but let's be honest by jmerlin · 2012-08-12 06:14 · Score: 2

What I find interesting is that if colored slightly differently and used jagged edges instead of curves, it would resemble the BP logo. BP paid $210,000,000 for their logo. Heh.
Re:Looks nice, but let's be honest by Forty+Two+Tenfold · 2012-08-12 09:13 · Score: 1

I vote that this post's parent be modded up.

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Upward mobility is a slippery slope - the higher you climb the more you show your ass.
Re:Looks nice, but let's be honest by Anonymous Coward · 2012-08-13 03:42 · Score: 0

This reminds me vaguely of Chernoff Faces [wikipedia.org], which were an attempt to give people viewing 4D or higher data a "feel" for it, since you can't really visualize 4D drawings. It takes advantage of brain circuitry for recognizing faces using many different little hard-wired things, like eye position, mouth width, and so on.
Use of those faces would be discriminating against autistic people! :-)

beautiful by gsgriffin · 2012-08-12 02:14 · Score: 4, Insightful

But useless

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Re:beautiful by Alex+Belits · 2012-08-12 06:14 · Score: 0, Offtopic

There is nothing beautiful about Constitutional amendment that includes a right to lie with impunity and a right to have weapons useless for any purpose but killing small animals from a porch.

--
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.

Misses the point... by Havenwar · 2012-08-12 02:20 · Score: 4, Insightful

The entire point of a venn diagram is a quick overview to easily be able to get an understanding about how things overlap, in what amounts and what areas. The diagrams on the linked page might be pretty, but they are in no way useful, and I doubt anyone would get more information out of it than reading the datalist it was compiled from.

Re:Misses the point... by gmuslera · 2012-08-12 02:34 · Score: 3, Insightful

There is the limitation of the media and the limitation of the receiver. With the appropiate culture, you could see blondes, brunettes and redheads in falling letters.
Re:Misses the point... by Havenwar · 2012-08-12 02:42 · Score: 1

That's more depending on how much drugs you take. Not so much a limitation as a lack of reality disconnect.
Re:Misses the point... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-08-12 04:11 · Score: 0

That's more depending on how much drugs you take.
Do you want the red pill, or the blue pill?
Re:Misses the point... by Asmor · 2012-08-12 04:14 · Score: 5, Interesting

Venn diagrams do not show proportion (what I assume you mean by amounts)!
If you draw a Venn diagram with a tiny little overlap, or a huge overlap, in order to make some point, [b]you are doing it wrong[/b].
Now it's one thing to do this for comedic effect, but I see this all the time when people are trying to be serious and it makes me stabby.
Venn diagrams are a way of visualizing overlaps in sets; the ONLY thing that matters is what region an element is placed, not how big that region is.
A Venn diagram is a precise tool which displays particular information with no ambiguity, and trying to shoehorn proportions into it just makes it muddy. Plus, humans are fucking terrible at telling how much larger one roughly circular area is than another; make those areas slightly different shapes, and it's even less helpful.
Re:Misses the point... by Havenwar · 2012-08-12 04:17 · Score: 1

Neither, but if you've got some vodka I've got a thirst that's not of this world.
Re:Misses the point... by Havenwar · 2012-08-12 04:18 · Score: 1

Huh, thanks for the info! Learn something new every day. I guess it's drinking time!
Re:Misses the point... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-08-12 05:20 · Score: 5, Insightful

"Simple Venn diagrams" are mathematical objects with certain properties. Constructing such an 11-Venn is an impressive feat and adds significantly to the body of mathematical knowledge surrounding these objects. This is an example of mathematical research.
Taking an idea, extending it, and applying it to other things is what mathematicians do. They are not struggling to understand the purpose of the original definition; instead they are leaving those of you who do not have such capacity for abstract thinking behind. In this case, you are missing the point.
Re:Misses the point... by Immerman · 2012-08-12 07:06 · Score: 4, Insightful

You've just run head on into the difference between targeted and foundational (or "blue-sky") research. Foundational research almost by definition has no particular application. Why do we care about the Higgs Boson? Why did we care about the electron? Or the neutron? No one had any concrete ideas for applications of any of them at the time - they were just trying to better understand the rules that govern the universe.
Mathematics research is almost all blue-sky, but it's even more fundamental than physics since it the landscape is a construct of rigorous logic built on a foundation of a few of the simplest and most universally accepted rules, and the results apply to anything whose mathematical description can contorted into a compatible format, regardless of the original subject area.

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--- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
Re:Misses the point... by budgenator · 2012-08-12 07:11 · Score: 1

You out grew it, how sad, a big part of why I go to work is to be able to create things for the shear joy of creation without regard for practicality when I'm not working.

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Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
Re:Misses the point... by Havenwar · 2012-08-12 07:26 · Score: 1

Actually that sounds much sadder to me, but then I do things I enjoy all the time instead of doing things I hate just to afford to spend some precious little sliver of time with something special. I can't imagine having to spend all that time toiling away just so you can do something you enjoy. Wouldn't you rather have all those hours to do something nice in? Even if it meant you might not afford quite so many gadgets or had to build your non-practical inventions out of second hand stuff instead of brand new parts?
Re:Misses the point... by FormOfActionBanana · 2012-08-12 08:32 · Score: 1

Looks like it's going to be the University of Illinois!

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Take off every 'sig' !!
Re:Misses the point... by Havenwar · 2012-08-12 08:38 · Score: 1

I don't know... I don't see any drinking courses... https://www.coursera.org/illinois
Re:Misses the point... by FormOfActionBanana · 2012-08-12 09:21 · Score: 1

304 Permanent Redirect: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i37uttMA6Mc

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Take off every 'sig' !!
Re:Misses the point... by theskipper · 2012-08-12 09:26 · Score: 1

The greatest Tom Cruise movie evar.
(Yeah, I can't believe I just typed that either)
Re:Misses the point... by Forty+Two+Tenfold · 2012-08-12 09:27 · Score: 1

we like to at least have some thin veneer of reason behind things...
Because I can should be enough.

--
Upward mobility is a slippery slope - the higher you climb the more you show your ass.
Re:Misses the point... by Havenwar · 2012-08-12 18:11 · Score: 0

No, it most certainly shouldn't. "Because I can" can never be a blanket explanation. There are a lot of things I _can_ do that would be a complete waste of time, and in addition to that there are a lot of things I can do that would be immoral, illegal, or even borderline suicidal to pursuit. "Because I can" is not enough, never has been, and never should be.
Re:Misses the point... by Immerman · 2012-08-12 18:45 · Score: 1

Sure, the majority of niche mathematical puzzles may never see much application, but by dismissing it as something that "looks neat" I think you risk missing the point. As others have mentioned Venn diagrams get kind of pointless as visual aids with around 4 or 5 groups - the human brain isn't really wired to process it; however, it is an interesting exercise is planar geometry with particular challenges, and it may prove to be something like Penrose Tiles in that respect: silly in it's own right, but with interesting applications to understanding for fundamental phenomena.
An unrelated (and poorly remembered) example - developing an algorithm to solve Minesweeper would seem would seem a similarly silly task; however, a few years(?) ago it was proven that Minesweeper is actually an NP-complete problem, and any such "silly" general solution would actually be applicable to a fairly large number of real-world problems.

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--- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
Re:Misses the point... by Havenwar · 2012-08-12 19:06 · Score: 1

Huh, there you go, I did not know that. I mean I still have no clue what real world problems get solved by that kind of math, but I know they do. Somehow.
As a friend of mine put it: "I'm just an advanced maths degree away from understanding why anyone would get an advanced maths degree."
Re:Misses the point... by Immerman · 2012-08-12 19:57 · Score: 1

Heh heh, I've got to remember that line. Having gotten a 4-year math degree sort of by accident I'm still not entirely sure why anyone would want one. My impression is that nobody is crazy enough to get an advanced degree in it unless they're either deeply in love with formal logic or are just too eccentric to fit in anywhere else.

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--- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
Re:Misses the point... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-08-12 19:57 · Score: 0

I understand that it's formally "wrong" to use Venn diagrams that way. But why does it bother you? Is it like grammar nazism? Maybe it would help if we would call them "George diagrams" or something. When the scales are close (e.g. the intersection is maximum of 70% of a 2 set diagram) then I find it really useful, i.e. more info.
Re:Misses the point... by highphilosopher · 2012-08-13 09:14 · Score: 1

No wonder you are how you are! You cursed at your mother at 8 years old?
Freak.
Re:Misses the point... by Havenwar · 2012-08-13 16:56 · Score: 1

Well, while my mother certainly wouldn't have minded - she as I was of the opinion that swearing is for emphasis and to be reserved for such - no, I wasn't swearing at my mother at age 8. Especially not in English since I never spoke that to her. I did a paraphrased idiomatic translation to express the general level such replies would have had.
So sorry if that left you confused.
Re:Misses the point... by highphilosopher · 2012-08-14 01:36 · Score: 1

Ah my bad. I failed to consider the lack of quotation marks around the paraphrased text that would have indicated an exact translation rather than an idiomatic one.

Its art by nurb432 · 2012-08-12 02:23 · Score: 4, Insightful

At that level its just a shiny object with no substance.

But then again, with what goes on in the political world these days perhaps it's appropriate.

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---- Booth was a patriot ----

Re:Its art by guttentag · 2012-08-12 03:35 · Score: 1

At that level its just a shiny object with no substance.
Which means there will be a function built into the next version of Flash to allow people to quickly build these. That way Flash can stay at the forefront of the SONS (Shiny Object No Substance) niche market.
Re:Its art by guttentag · 2012-08-12 03:53 · Score: 2

At that level its just a shiny object with no substance.
But then again, with what goes on in the political world these days perhaps it's appropriate.
Actually, what we have here is a perfect model of the beltway (the highway that surrounds Washington DC). A giant traffic jam of conflicting yet semi-exclusively intersecting interests with a whole lot of nothing going on in the middle as a result.
Re:Its art by Anonymous Coward · 2012-08-12 08:57 · Score: 2, Insightful

Interestingly, these more complex venn diagrams are going in the opposite direction that politics keeps moving in maturing democracies. Voters may prefer only a 2 set diagram this coming election: http://www.yourdictionary.com/library/presart1.html
The ability for complex thought is certainly not determined by reading level, but it is a good warning indicator. Politicians are steadily creating ever simpler arguments to appeal to those who are willing to give them sanction for their actions. While it certainly makes the task of identifying the flaws in the arguments easier, it also implies that attempts to point out those errors will fall upon uncomprehending ears. There is a point at which an argument cannot be further simplified without destroying the content of the argument. At some point, certain arguments can no longer reach people due to the nature of their complexity. At that point, the argument itself must be abandoned and instead one must first correct the ability to think before returning to the task of correcting the understanding of a particular point.
I run into this all the time. I find that I am more often correcting people on basic definitions and destroying bromides(propositions held without justification, accepted without thought) in their minds. I cannot even get to the meat of the subject because I have to deal with faulty reasoning methodologies first. I cannot speak on economics until I've gone back to deal with misunderstandings of epistemology, explaining the error in misusing the natural scientific method to justify some policy for effects it supposedly has by virtue of the fact that conditions were of some state while said policy was in effect(ignoring any attempt to control all the other countless variables that were also operating at the time). I cannot speak on philosophy and ethics until I've first dealt with misunderstandings of appeals to incidental and limited effect, where the outcome is subjectively valued differently by different actors and begs the question of any objective standard, while trying to point out when and where objectivity does exist in the universally preferable behaviors of men.
Going back to this level of reasoning before returning to the actual point would be a dream for me. More often, I must define the most basic of terms like statism, the initiation of violence, and so on. Just trying to get people to stop calling random politicians a socialist or whatever other ideology is tough enough. I can talk about the central violent control of the means of production within a geographical region all I want, but some people cannot see the economic fascism at all. I can point out that even the closest thing to it(like North Korea) still uses money and has markets but still many think the northern European so called social democracies(which have far more voluntary market exchange between peaceful individuals) are anything close to socialism. I can point out the degree of self ownership such places foster is comparable to the US and yet I see unending claims that America is capitalist while much of Europe is not. I can point to the degree of fascistic controls dominating the markets in the US only to be met with blank stares. It is entirely frustrating. The ability to think critically on these topics is absent in a large number of people. I do not think it is complete however. I suspect these blatant gaps in reasoning are exclusive to certain contentious and traumatic thoughts and experiences. Many wonderfully smart people exhibit these problems. It isn't an issue of a persons overall ability to think. This suggests that the next level down we must go to address this sort of inflicted thoughtlessness is in the realm of the psychological. One cannot reason a person out of a position they reached by means other than reason. If a man is indoctrinated, one cannot expect him to be rational about the subject. One must address the source of his ailment, not the symptom. So, my final long winded and off topic point is that to deal with the problem of stupidity in voters, you must deal with their mental blocks first, then show them how to reason, then explain the actual subject at hand. No small task at all...
Re:Its art by Anonymous Coward · 2012-08-12 11:53 · Score: 0

Did you have a point at all?

Of course this is where it all began.. by wisebabo · 2012-08-12 02:29 · Score: 5, Funny

(Classic SMBC cartoon)

http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=1917

Re:Of course this is where it all began.. by Anonymous Coward · 2012-08-12 05:57 · Score: 0

This is also appropriate.

Obligatory This Is Spinal Tap by Anonymous Coward · 2012-08-12 02:35 · Score: 0, Redundant

Nigel's Venn diagram goes to 11.

Re:Obligatory This Is Spinal Tap by Megane · 2012-08-12 02:45 · Score: 1

But is that 11 inches or 11 feet?

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#naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
Re:Obligatory This Is Spinal Tap by Anonymous Coward · 2012-08-13 03:49 · Score: 0

11 on the Richter scale.

L00ks Like by Anonymous Coward · 2012-08-12 02:42 · Score: 0

some "Professional Students" with a bit to much time on their hands.

3D by meekg · 2012-08-12 02:49 · Score: 1

Can you make one for 4 colors out of 4 spheres?
Certainly not a prime number

Re:3D by sgunhouse · 2012-08-12 03:28 · Score: 1

Can you see the internals of your four spheres?
In that sense, 4 categories would lead to 15 regions total. But as we can't really see in 3 dimensions - we can't see the inside and outside at the same time, we only see in stereo - this is not an improvement. (A computer could, in a theoretical sense, represent a large number of categories in any number of dimensions. It just can't present the results to you in more than stereo 2D.)
Re:3D by bmo · 2012-08-12 03:52 · Score: 1

But as we can't really see in 3 dimensions - we can't see the inside and outside at the same time,
Sure we can. It's called transparency and translucency and computers are pretty good at simulating this as 2D projection on a flat screen. If you were to do it in meatspace, you could use a translucent coloured glass or plastic.
There is no reason why you can't use spheres.
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BMO
Re:3D by sgunhouse · 2012-08-12 04:01 · Score: 1

The person below with the 3D printer where you could actually disassemble the pieces might be onto something, but with too many colors transparency in a strictly solid model isn't enough to help.
Re:3D by bmo · 2012-08-12 04:14 · Score: 0

Tell me again how translucency and transparency don't allow you to see through/into something.
Go ahead. Make me laugh more.
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BMO
Re:3D by Anonymous Coward · 2012-08-12 12:17 · Score: 0

It's not that you couldn't see through, it's that the 3d printer can't print transparent poo (yet).
Re:3D by Anonymous Coward · 2012-08-13 11:24 · Score: 0

thank god for reddit. this site has become so fucking pathetic. pretty soon its going to be just be AC "nigger" posts, and angry ol dinosaur BMO.

Great by Anonymous Coward · 2012-08-12 02:51 · Score: 0

As a logic teacher, I welcome this discovery, and if it is just for satisfying my curiosity.

But I'm already happy if my students are able to draw a Venn diagram with 3 sets... ;-)

Keyboard warning by Anonymous Coward · 2012-08-12 03:01 · Score: 0

My brain exploded ... made quite a mess of my keyboard.

Pretty, but limited in usefulness. by kennykb · 2012-08-12 03:05 · Score: 1

Nice and shiny. But as others have observed, it doesn't actually do much for visualizing the relationships. Up to about six sets really is my personal limit for visualizing these things at a glance. and I use a Karnaugh map for that.

3D? by mattr · 2012-08-12 03:07 · Score: 3, Interesting

IANAM but would 3D help? Since now we have 3D printers one could build a program that would make a disassemblable colored object.

Hallelujah! by Guppy06 · 2012-08-12 03:16 · Score: 1

Because what the internet needs is more Venn diagrams!

Useless is in the eye of the beholder. by Anonymous Coward · 2012-08-12 03:30 · Score: 5, Insightful

I agree that the 11-Venn is fairly useless as a PowerPoint slide, but Slash Dotters of all people should understand that pure mathematics often leads to applied mathematics. For example, suppose this new finding leads to improved approaches to signal multiplexing, so that you can have billions more 8G cell phones and thousands more channels of nothing-to-watch on cable and satellite TV. Or perhaps it will lead to more advanced neural networks, so that we can get Cyberdyne Systems and SkyNet up and running. Or maybe it will even lead to advances in political science that give rise to governments that are actually capable of serving the people they govern. One just never knows...

Re:Useless is in the eye of the beholder. by guttentag · 2012-08-12 03:42 · Score: 4, Funny

I agree that the 11-Venn is fairly useless as a PowerPoint slide...
Are you inferring
-(next slide)-
that there are things which
-(next slide)-
are not
-(next slide)-
fairly useless as PowerPoint slides?
-(next slide)-
Many have claimed to invent such a thing, but none have succeeded.
Re:Useless is in the eye of the beholder. by makomk · 2012-08-12 03:47 · Score: 1

. For example, suppose this new finding leads to improved approaches to signal multiplexing, so that you can have billions more 8G cell phones and thousands more channels of nothing-to-watch on cable and satellite TV.
Of course, most /.ers have probably come across the ideas of channel capacity and Shannon information, which kind of put a dampener on that possibility.
Re:Useless is in the eye of the beholder. by Anonymous Coward · 2012-08-12 13:03 · Score: 0

Ughhh. so you mean that Verizon and ATT can now come up with a new data plan called the "11-Venn" plan where when minutes overlapp you get charged a premium?

And it's not true - been done before by Bozovision · 2012-08-12 03:35 · Score: 5, Informative

In 1989 Anthony Edwards figured out how to make Venn diagrams of arbitrary size: http://www.qandr.org/quentin/software/venn

"Dr Edwards came up with an ingenious solution based on segmenting the surface of a sphere, beginning with the equator and the 0 and the +/- 90-degree meridians. It can be extended to an arbitrary number of sets by creating wobbly lines that cross the equator - starting with the pattern of stitching found on a tennis ball. You can unwrap the sphere back onto a plane and the sets still work."

Re:And it's not true - been done before by Anonymous Coward · 2012-08-12 04:12 · Score: 0

In 1989 Anthony Edwards figured out how to make Venn diagrams of arbitrary size: http://www.qandr.org/quentin/software/venn
FTFS: "nobody had managed to draw a simple (no more than two lines crossing), symmetric Venn diagram for more than 7 sets (only primes will work)."
Dr. Edwards' Venn is not symetric (per the two boxes)
Re:And it's not true - been done before by Mana+Mana · 2012-08-12 21:29 · Score: 1

> In 1989 Anthony Edwards
Mother Goose, you pussy!
?

Not been done before by Anonymous Coward · 2012-08-12 04:04 · Score: 0

Note the words 'simple' and 'symmettric'. The abritrarly many set diagram linked acheives neither.

Either way it's pretty useless...

Re:Not been done before by Bozovision · 2012-08-12 04:22 · Score: 2

I think it does symmetry: have a look, not at the pictures on the linked page, but the pdfs, which are examples of what he was talking about. But you are quite right it's not simple and my comment should be downvoted, which is my punishment for a knee-jerk reaction. My apologies to Khalegh Mamakani and Frank Ruskey.

We don't know if it is useless yet by 140Mandak262Jamuna · 2012-08-12 04:19 · Score: 5, Insightful

Many seemingly pointless exercises in math lead to surprising breakthroughs. Graph partitioning is a very active area of research. Imagine creating an index on a ultra large database with pairwise "and" condition on many pairs of fields. Then finding multiple "and" or "or" condition based records within minimal traversing and merging of the index files. Who knows it might actually lead to dramatic speed ups of queries in large data bases.

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sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact

Looks like fractals or harmonics by Anonymous Coward · 2012-08-12 04:57 · Score: 0

It looks sort of fractal, and it reminds me of harmonics. I wonder if it could tell us anything about either.

Oh, and of course it's useless for displaying information. A list of groups and their characteristics sorted by percentage is better for that; but that doesn't mean this isn't good for something

Spinal Tap Reference by Anonymous Coward · 2012-08-12 05:15 · Score: 0

For those that didn't catch the This Is Spinal Tap reference:

Video Proof

So, where do I get the t-shirt? by JSBiff · 2012-08-12 05:55 · Score: 1

As others have said, I'm not sure that 11-Venn is useful for most people's comprehension, but I'd love to have it on a t-shirt. Mathematicians come up with some awesome abstract art, sometimes.

been done before? by Rezazur · 2012-08-12 06:06 · Score: 1

Thought VennMaster could do it already:
http://www.informatik.uni-ulm.de/ni/staff/HKestler/vennm/doc.html

Venn diagrams? by Alex+Belits · 2012-08-12 06:17 · Score: 1

Do they have any purpose other than to show some three universally reviled attributes and put a group of criticized people in the middle?

--
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.

Banana shaped..... by Punchcardz · 2012-08-12 07:16 · Score: 1

But can they do a BANANA shaped venn? http://boingboing.net/2012/07/12/just-look-at-that-banana-genom.html

This one goes to 11 by jfdavis668 · 2012-08-12 07:43 · Score: 1

It's one louder

Goes to 11? by sootman · 2012-08-12 07:56 · Score: 1

7 is enough for Steve Miller.

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Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.

Anyone else with a sudden urge for Spinal Tap by get_your_ass_to_mars · 2012-08-12 12:53 · Score: 1

maybe it's just me...

paging Dr. Rorschach by Anonymous Coward · 2012-08-12 13:36 · Score: 0

Wow! Times have changed! When I was in college, these were called Rorschach Tests (and they were only black and white back then).

It's time to take your medication, APK. by Anonymous Coward · 2012-08-13 12:34 · Score: 0

You crazy old coot.

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Breakthrough In Drawing Complex Venn Diagrams: Goes to 11

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