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Tennessee Crater Inches Toward Recognition
tetrahedrassface writes "Slashdot carried the story of an-as-yet unverified impact crater in Tennessee a couple of years ago. After a few weeks of fairly hardcore sample taking, digging, obtaining some good images and manipulating them, I'm proud to report the first batch of evidence in favor of it being an impact site. The primary smoking gun is the presentation of an astrobleme, obtained from High Resolution Ornithographic Images taken in 2008. Also of note are the melted/deformed rocks, magnetic crater dust, and the fitment of the crater rim to a circle. A rented plane and a bunch of photographs today and it's pretty obvious that it's a crater, folks. Cheers!"
It's a space station!
ornithographic or orthographic?
"To stop the terrorists."
... High Resolution Ornithographic Images ...
As taken by birds? Perhaps you meant orthographic?
"Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit
He's gotta be around there somewhere...
you and Slashdot made a scientific discovery. Here's your prize!
At some point, a piece of rock fell from the sky and landed in what is now called Tennessee. Is there something spectacular about this particular dimple in the earth?
Why in the world would one be "proud" of a crater? It is a fact (maybe). It happened a long time ago. No one had anything to do with it. What is there to be "proud" of??
They fact they found a pair of boots next to a jug by the crater leads me to believe some ones still blow up on them.
Clearly the scientists behind this investigation are a trifle flighty.
Linking to a server via IP address on Slashdot, huh? Yeah, that's going to hold up.
"Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
The primary smoking gun is the presentation of an astrobleme, obtained from High Resolution Ornithographic Images taken in 2008. Also of note are the melted/deformed rocks, magnetic crater dust, and unusual parts from the alien spacecraft that crashed there .
Fixed that for you.
Considering the relative proximity to this extremely badass crater, I'll consider it.
On a different note; oh how beneath the glorious reign of Reinheitsgebot I'd love to have a corpulent barrel of dunkel in this place.
Forward! -- Emperor Norton, 2012
Looking at the last link - a photo - it's most certainly not "pretty obvious" it's a crater. given the area we're talking about, it could quite easily be the remnants of an old, rather large, sinkhole.
#DeleteChrome
"A rented plane and a bunch of photographs today and it's pretty obvious that it's a crater, folks."
Only if "crater" means "circular depression". Sinkholes make nice circular depressions also, and are far from rare in the South. And the summary misuses the term "astrobleme" which means "cosmic impact crater" and would be the whole circular structure. I gather the poster is referring to an elevated region in the center which may be an impact rebound peak.
Melted rock and magnetic dust makes the case stronger (but ancient volcanism could account for at least the melted rock), but the real smoking gun that would make the case without any doubt would be coesite or stishovite (for example), quartz that has been transformed by megabar (millions of atmospheres) of pressure. These materials (or other evidence of extremely intense shock waves such as characteristic microfractures) are virtual proof of a cosmic impact.
Second class citizen of the New Gilded Age
Possible. But I'd sure want to exclude karst features (e.g., sinkholes) before accepting an impact origin for a topographic feature in a known karst area. Mapped karst features are awfully close to where the "crater" site is.
Also, your shattercones don't look like real shattercones, which have a nested, cone-shaped geometry. What you illustrate looks more like an ordinary concoidal fracture. Break a rock by any method and you can get those.
If you want to identify impact melt convincingly, then ordinary macroscopic pictures won't do. You need a thin section and some petrographic microscope work. Sometimes even forest fires can melt rocks on the surface, or a camp fire if it is big enough.
Some terrestrial minerals are highly magnetic, but also quite resistant to weathering, and will get left behind (and even concentrated) while other minerals are altered. For example, magnetite. If it were demonstrated to be metal (i.e. unoxidized), especially if a combination of iron and nickel, that would be suggestive, but you'd still have to exclude man-made contamination.
Missing from your sampling is context. Disconnected rocks removed from their geological context are not as useful as understanding how they were arranged in the field. This is especially true for features like shattercones, which should have a clear geometrical relationship to the crater (i.e. basically a radial arrangement). If you are sampling from rubble on the surface, rather than bedrock, you really don't know what you've got. It could be transported by river, gravity (mass wasting), or (not sure if possible at this location) glaciers. It might not even be local. A lot of your samples have lichens and weathering rinds suggesting that these aren't particularly fresh samples (this is why geologists bring geological hammers and suitable eye protection to use them).
In short, you've got an interesting feature, but you are still far from demonstrating it is a crater.
Of course it is inching. It is, after all, riding on a tectonic plate!
Silence is a state of mime.
The crater is in Hamilton County which is along the southern border of the eastern part of the state. Looking at a geologic map of the region, the county is sitting on rocks from somewhere between Cambrian and Ordovician in age (about 540-440Ma). However, the region's geography is dominated by a thrust-and-fold mountain belt that formed during the Alleghenian orogeny about 325-260Ma. The crater is undeformed so it has to post-date the collisional event. Its definitely less than 260Ma. Considering how symmetrical the crater is, its probably a lot younger but I can't find any sedimentary maps for the area.
Or, you could ask a local Tennessee student and s/he will tell you the crater was formed when God smote Satan 10,000 years ago.
The smoking gun will be shocked quartz.
So, if young Calvin digs in the back yard and finds a discarded coke bottle and calls it a dinosaur skull we think it's cute because he's just a kid.
When a grownup nerd without any apparent field experience or scientific training gets into pretend-science and goes out in the woods collecting "evidence" to support a fanciful idea about a particular sink hole being a SPACE CRATER - then it goes on slashdot because it's content.
FFS
Sorry, I'm not seeing it. Everything I see posted here can be adequately explained without the presence of an impact. Sinkholes are also often round. Magnetic material can accumulate in and weather out of most rock types, and can be introduced through secondary contamination. Vugs are, and other holes/porosity often are, the result of dissolution and weathering (coincidentally, the same processes form sinkholes under the right conditions).
To convince me, do several things:
1. Cut open the weird looking metal pieces and acid-etch them to reveal any Widmanstätten patterns. (Note: the metal in meteors will not react quickly to water or other weak acids, but limestone will. Iron minerals commonly occur in most rock types, not least of all sedimentary rocks, including limestone, that are likely to form sinkholes. Magnetic minerals are actually pretty common. I'd be a little surprised not to find small grains of magnetic material pretty much anywhere on Earth.)
2. Take the rocks to an expert and get an opinion. This often annoys most geologists a little bit since, as one recounted to me, he's had hundreds of people bring him "meteorites" over the years and precisely zero of them were actual meteorites. But if you can get an appropriately trained geologist to glance at them it should be moderately easy to see that they are or are not meteorites, or represent a rock that has melted. If that person can't say definitively, he/she may be sufficiently intrigued to investigate further.
3. If the rocks look interesting to the geologist, running through an electron microprobe and electron microscope will reveal many more interesting things about their precise chemical composition and microscopic structure, as will thin sections under an optical microscope. For the metallic parts reflected light microscopy will tell a great deal. The presence of certain high pressure SiO2 polymorphs is diagnostic in rocks from the impact zone, and iron/nickel composition is a very good indicator in a suspected meteorite.
4. Careful mapping will help, as will a geologic map of the area. Geologic mapping is not difficult, but defensible results require practice and a thorough understanding of geologic principles. Look for the character of the ground, the distribution and size of different material both vertically and laterally, its composition, texture, the nature of contacts between areas with different materials, and the orientation of any different layers, amongst any other notable characteristics. Relate your findings to those on existing geologic maps. Create your map on top of a high resolution topo map.
5. Consider multiple working hypotheses, and keep an open mind. For example, the two obvious hypotheses are that this feature represents a sinkhole or that it instead represents an impact crater. Find as much evidence as you can that contradicts or informs both of those ideas; consider all evidence in light of them. For example, you might observe that the area is characterized by shallow crystalline silicate metamorphic bedrock that is not subject to dissolution, thus pointing away from a sinkhole origin. On the other hand, you might note there are caves in the area, topographic maps show creeks and stream ending abruptly, that there was cement production there in the late 1800s, limestone clasts show traces of pyrite, and there's little evidence of breccia.
It's a logical fallacy to conclude an unusual process must be responsible for an observed feature when your evidence can be adequately explained by more pedestrian processes. Make sure you have solid evidence that can't be explained by more mundane processes before jumping to a novel conclusion -- ad hoc conclusions are inimical to real understanding and the process of science. If an impact is still a reasonable explanation after carefully considering your evidence in light of other hypotheses, systematically write up your findings. Start by giving an overview of the general area, then the feature itself, then the details of specific observations you've made a
I live in TN; retard capital of the world.
If a meteor took out Nashville, the IQ of the state would double.
If it took out Memphis, the same thing could happen.
All the smart people are in enclaves, close to universities; most are from elsewhere, often overseas.
It's a sad world we live in...
Truth isn't Truth - Guliani
That's where Uncle Jeb's moonshine still blew up in 1925!
Have gnu, will travel.
Feature is at Lat 3518'53.39"N and Lon 8458'57.22"W
Geology/bedrock info can be found at http://mrdata.usgs.gov/geology/state/state.php?state=TN
The bedrock at that spot is a dolostone, i.e. a carbonate rock that does dissolves and form karst features (like caves, sinkholes, etc.). Description is at http://mrdata.usgs.gov/geology/state/sgmc-unit.php?unit=TNOCAk;10
There are plenty of ponds and closed depressions in the same area if you surf around on Google Earth. My guess is it is not an impact crater.
How to explain the metal, "impacted rock", etc.? People are always burning stuff so it is probably melted metal and slag. Some historical research might be helpful--I can imagine people have been dumping junk and trash there for a long time. What else do you do with a hole in the ground...
Where is the Coesite and what is the condition?
And when found are there neutron damage tracks in the crystals?
!
I expect no replies to this message and the Moderator will delete it, obviously. .|.. (the 'Bird' ... in ascii)/
35.315003,-84.982424
Can someone please check my impact crater candidates? Maybe they have already been determined.
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
where is Tennessee, azeroth or tyria?
fucking moron
Number 1 is Hicks Dome, a structural dome related to igneous processes.
Number 2 looks like erosion at the interface between different geologic layers, probable a ridge of Monongahela Group sandstone and softer Conemaugh Group shale and siltstone. There's nothing about it besides a little bit of roundness that's very crater-like. If this structure has a name I don't know what it is. The fact that it appears to be at the intersection of topography that's very steeply eroded to the west and more subtly incised to the east suggests it's a chance erosion feature between two different rock types of different toughness. If you look around that area you'll see there are lots of other eroded bowls. These are common shapes that peaks and ridges take as they erode.
Number 3 is I think called Burke's Garden, representing an eroded structural dome in an area of complex folding and thrust faulting in the ancient roots of the Appalachian Mountains. The outer, younger, sandstone layer was eroded way providing access for the elements to go to work on the less resistant shale and Knox Group limestone and interior. If you scroll around a bit you can see many ridges running running along the mountains, some of which are folded, faulted, and eroded in to similar structures -- just generally with a finer aspect ratio. This section of strata just happened to get abused by the just right combination of folding and thrust faulting in the right places to make the structure look a little rounder than most. Simple geologic mapping (which has already been done -- you just need to find a copy of the maps) should very conclusively demonstrate the structural features you see here are exclusively accounted for by the conventional compressive orogenic processes that formed the core of the ancient Appalachian Mountains.
'Tis a shame you're an AC for then I could mod you up.
..it's at this link http://goo.gl/maps/Oe78J
I'd have to say that it looks nothing like a meteor crater and a lot like a sinkhole caused by an underground collapse. Meteor craters that size would be very round and would cause circular deformation of the surrounding area.
Siderite found in the depression would exactly match what was shown on the website.
You're welcome.
Tubby or not tubby. Fat is the question
I don't think that it is "pretty obvious it is a crater". Prime evidence is missing or not well enough illustrated.
First:
1) as others here remark too, a circular feature does not equal an impact crater. Karst depressions are circular too and a strong candidate in this area;
2) magnetic particles can be found in any soil. They do not point to impact as such. Show us geochemical tests that show they are of meteoritic composition, and show us that they have an abundance well over the natural accretion rate of cosmic dust for this sedimentary regime
What is needed is:
a) a clear record of a breccia fill;
b) a clear record of overturned rim strata;
c) a clear record of shock-deformed quartz;
d) more convincing examples of shatter cones;
e) more convincing examples of impact melt breccia, including identification of the mineral phases that associate with such rock.
The presence of clear meteoritic components (geochemically shown to be extraterrestrial in composition) in the crater sediments would be a good argument as well, but they are not always preserved in genuine meteor craters. The magnetic particles you present do not count as such, as I already pointed out.
Regarding (d) and (e): the photographs of purported specimens provided are far from convincing. The "shatter cone" actually looks like a shard of rock with a conchoidal fracture on the ventral face, not a 3D shatter cone. And the "melt glass"? Not clear enough from the pictures: it could be anything. The "tortured rock" (purported impact melt) actually looks like a porous carbonate such as you can find in karst features, not like a vesiculated impact melt.
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse
I've tested these with acid. If the sample won't react with boiling acid (nitric or sulfuric) why would it stand to reason they are carbonates reacting to rainwater?
They don't react with boiling hydrochloric either..
Picture of sample here: here.
No rxn. That rock looks normal too.... shure... anything but heated and pressed.. amirite?
Maybe I'm blind, but I couldn't find this thing's latitude/longitude location, anywhere. I tracked it down using some of the pictures on the guy's website.
I found that it is located at: 35.313724 N and 84.977574 W
http://goo.gl/maps/jgJyJ
Note that the photo with the houses at the very top would be taken from the eastern edge of the map with those houses being along Pierce Road pretty much straight over from the bottom "-" of Google Maps' magnifier tool. From the ariel view it could be a sinkhole or a crater, with sinkhole being more common in the area. Someone mentioned below that there is a disappearing stream just a mile from there. That part of Tennessee has some magnificent caves.
Anyway, I hope the poster will ignore the haters and keep on it. I remembered this post from a couple of years ago and the vitriol then. Keep on it. Worst case is you prove it's a sinkhole. But at least you've done something, learned a lot, educated others, etc. It's interesting work, and even if it is a sinkhole it's a freaking monster of a sinkhole - still interesting in its own right. And a sinkhole that big is draining into a sizable cave.
Do you have ESP?