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Salt Lake City Police To Wear Camera Glasses

Psychotic_Wrath writes "The Salt Lake Police department will be much more transparent with their law enforcement. A program is being rolled out to require officers wear glasses equipped with a camera to record what they see. Of course, there are several officers opposed to this idea, who will resist the change. One of the biggest shockers to me is that the police chief is in strong support of this measure: 'If Chief Burbank gets his way, these tiny, weightless cameras will soon be on every police officer in the state.' With all the opposition of police officers being recorded by citizens that we are seeing throughout the country, it is quite a surprise that they would make a move like this. The officers would wear them when they are investigating crime scenes, serving warrants, and during patrols. Suddenly Utah isn't looking like such a bad place to be. Now we just need to hope other states and departments would follow suit. It sure will be nice when there is video evidence to show the real story."

307 comments

  1. And the downside? by Lyrata · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Sorry, but this doesn't make SLC seem much more appealing to me (aside from the Mormon thing). I don't think I want police recording me just by virtue of me being near a patrol.

    --
    50,000 characters used to live here.
    1. Re:And the downside? by Synerg1y · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Also, what's to stop a cop from taking them off to do something under the table? A million excuses come to mind.

    2. Re:And the downside? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Also, what's to stop a cop from taking them off to do something under the table? A million excuses come to mind.

      Under the table? I hope they would at least use the restroom.

    3. Re:And the downside? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are recorded on their dash cams anyway, what does it matter if their glasses record you

    4. Re:And the downside? by crakbone · · Score: 4, Interesting

      UHP has already done similar. This girl would routinely leave her mic in her car when doing DUI stops. http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865564397/UHP-comes-under-fire-over-internal-memo-questioning-troopers-arrest-practices.html?pg=all

    5. Re:And the downside? by tripleevenfall · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It will start mattering when facial recognition gets integrated into this as a "next logical step for public safety".

    6. Re:And the downside? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not just for traffic stops, duh.

    7. Re:And the downside? by gstoddart · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Also, what's to stop a cop from taking them off to do something under the table?

      Well, then you pretty much have to say "any police action which doesn't have the corresponding video will result in disciplinary action".

      You won't be able to stop the outright corrupt cops, but if someone did an arrest and didn't have the glasses on to record what actually happened -- they might get thrown out of court.

      At least, that seems a sane way. We hear far too often about cops deciding they can take/break cameras, delete images, and all sorts of other things they're not really legally allowed to do. Enforcing some level of accountability on them might actually do some good.

      There's an awful lot of police officers who either don't know, or don't care, about what they're legally allowed to do.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    8. Re:And the downside? by Gordonjcp · · Score: 1

      "Where the hell is your footage between 11am and 12:30pm? You were scheduled on shift, so where were you?"

    9. Re:And the downside? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      make it a felony to take them off, turn them off. "forget" them while on duty. tamper with them. ect ect ect.

      zero tolerance.. (that stupid shit has to work for something)

    10. Re:And the downside? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I was thinking the badge should be on the glasses, and the camera required for the employee to be on-duty myself.

    11. Re:And the downside? by Em+Adespoton · · Score: 1

      "Where the hell is your footage between 11am and 12:30pm? You were scheduled on shift, so where were you?"

      Schoolkids figured this out years ago... you don't turn the footage off; you just set the glasses somewhere/give them to someone doing something unremarkable for the period you "step out" for.

      Are they supposed to wear them when visiting the rest room? It seems to me there have to be short bits of "downtime".

      We'll see how things turn out I guess.

    12. Re:And the downside? by Synerg1y · · Score: 1

      Excuse #1: I was chasing this black guy, he was kinda fast, my glasses fell off and I stepped on them.

      Excuse #2: I forgot to change the battery

      Excuse #3: F U, that's why.

    13. Re:And the downside? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      So I've actually considered whether something like this would be useful, but I'd say we should go a few steps further.

      First, add a camera to the /back/ of the officer as well and add a good microphone.

      Then have desk clerks watch the cameras for the following reasons:
      1. Watch the cops' backs. If someone with a knife or gun is prowling around behind the cop, tell the cop. "Officer, there's an armed suspect at your 7 o'clock, 20 feet out.
      2. Intercede if the cop asks for assistance. "Sergeant, can you look up the wording of ordinance 103.2c for me?"
      3. Intercede if the cop is doing something wrong. "Officer, please stop tasing the bro."

      #1 and #2 might get enough buy-in that we get #3 as a result.

    14. Re:And the downside? by Picass0 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Those excuses only hold up (very tenuously) when there's one officer. When multiple officers have the same malfunction it starts to look like conspiracy. That's enough to get a case thrown out of court.

    15. Re:And the downside? by Golddess · · Score: 2

      Personally, I'm having a hard time coming up with a reason why that would be a bad thing. A cop having an HUD* on his glasses which can pull up a person's info via face recognition (and display a picture on file so the cop knows it isn't a false positive)? Certainly sounds preferable to the current method of a cop relying on fuzzy memory for determining "I thought he looked like a perp I saw at the station".

      I suppose one could argue that the face recognition software may be so good at picking out people in disguises, that cops start assuming that all false positives are just the software being better able at looking through disguises than they are.

      *Adding an HUD was included with adding face recognition to the glasses, right? Why else would face recognition be added except to be used to provide information to the cop wearing the glasses?

      --
      "I'm not sure I like the fugnutish tone you used in your post!" -RogL (608926)-
    16. Re:And the downside? by Lashat · · Score: 1

      Can we have Google Glasses that do the same thing?

      Access a the public databases and indicate that there is a child preadtor at the playground, etc?

      Almost makes it worth it. Actually, I want this ability, but don't want the cops to have it.
       

      --
      For every benefit you receive a tax is levied. - Ralph Waldo Emerson
    17. Re:And the downside? by geekoid · · Score: 2

      I think:
        "any police action which doesn't have the corresponding video will result in no charges being brought against the accused."

      The police force will deal with that through normal channels now in place.

      Plus, if you bring it up in court, the officer is going to need a good reason, and a history of it happening will lead to a law suit.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    18. Re:And the downside? by geekoid · · Score: 2

      " I want this ability, but don't want the cops to have it."
      everyone or no one. Every thing lead will pretty much guarantee wide spread abuse of any power.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    19. Re:And the downside? by Gordonjcp · · Score: 1

      1) Where's your partner's footage?

      2) Do that again and you're sacked.

      3) Sacked.

    20. Re:And the downside? by J'raxis · · Score: 2

      Well, then you pretty much have to say "any police action which doesn't have the corresponding video will result in disciplinary action".

      Should be even stronger: Require that video evidence by camera-wearing cops be used in court in lieu of the officer's testimony. If they were supposed to be wearing the camera and weren't, their testimony will not be allowed as a substitute.

    21. Re:And the downside? by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      Excuse #1: I was chasing this black guy, he was kinda fast, my glasses fell off and I stepped on them.

      Excuse #2: I forgot to change the battery

      Excuse #3: F U, that's why.

      After the city employing these cops pays out a few million in civil suits because of "lost videos", I don't think these excuses will be tolerated any longer.

    22. Re:And the downside? by rtb61 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Still all in all, a better balance would be that the police turn them on when ever they are going to interact with the public and the rest of the time they are off. Good police officers still deserve a measure of privacy and personal respect. Bad police officers who fail to turn them on prior to interacting with the public should be fired.

      Problem with these cameras of course, bad officers will soon learn to strike out of camera view with fist and truncheon to escalate violence, whilst their partner 'looks' the other way and then deny it with 'proof' of video. Much like DNA evidence, better not get too wrapped into what the camera 'sees' unless they go with a fish eye lens and high resolution so they can extract the scene they are after.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    23. Re:And the downside? by rtb61 · · Score: 1

      Provide a band to ensure they don't fall off. Issue them at the start of the day to the officer already charged. Fire recalcitrant officers. Still lot's of interesting technical issues to look at.
      Focus - how broad a view
      Resolution - how much data can be extracted out of each frame
      Frames per second - saving on storage
      Rear view - capture the overall scene for review especially attacks from behind the officer
      Live transmission - selective to provide better backup and support
      On site review - to give an officer a chance to review what happened so they can focus in on issues
      Live feedback - immediate review of actions and advice on what to do.

      You can really do a lot of interesting stuff with them in you avoid attempting to record and monitor the whole working day and instead focus in on interactions.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    24. Re:And the downside? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2

      Police are very one sided. Anything you say CAN and WILL be used against you and NEVER EVER for you. Police are legally allowed to lie to you during investigations and interrogations. The are trained in advanced techniques to get you to trust them and get you to talk and they can legally leave out details and pick and choose what they want to present out of everything you said to them. Police often record confessions with video and audio but destroy the video and audio and use their notes taken at the time and transcribed notes written down later. Of course those notes only show what is good for them, not for you. All of these are to get rid of the things that look bad to them but look good for them. It is the culture they operate under. This is why dash cams are shut off and recordings are "lost", why they do not like to be recorded making arrests. It is the code of blue.

      Why you should never talk to the police.
      http://lawiscool.com/2009/04/16/why-you-should-never-talk-to-the-police/

      Watch both parts, the second one is an investigator giving his side of the story which is even more chilling.

    25. Re:And the downside? by icebike · · Score: 1

      Those excuses only hold up (very tenuously) when there's one officer. When multiple officers have the same malfunction it starts to look like conspiracy. That's enough to get a case thrown out of court.

      At which point the PD scraps the whole project, and goes back to the status quo.

      Police Dash-Cams aren't always on. Only when stopping a car, and not always when stopping a car.
      Further, they serve mostly to protect the officer, and only secondarily as evidence.

      The fact that your tail light was out at the time you were stopped does not magically change to some other state simply because the camera was on or off. They are cops. Not Professor Schrodinger.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    26. Re:And the downside? by v1 · · Score: 1

      Also, what's to stop a cop from taking them off to do something under the table? A million excuses come to mind.

      There are similar concerns with ticketing and dashcams. What's to stop a cop that has started writing you up a ticket from accepting a bribe and throwing the ticket in the trash instead of turning it in?

      To address that issue, all tickets are now serialized, and there's hell to pay or lots of paperwork to fill out if you "misplace" one, making it difficult to sweep something under the rug. I expect the same sort of view will be taken with the video here. One of those "suspicious until proven innocent" if records go missing.

      So many of today's squad cars have dash cams. In most cases, the cams are rolling automatically anytime the cherries are spinning, a feature the officer cannot disable, to insure accountability and reliable/consistent gathering of evidence.. Cherries up is required during a traffic stop, by long-standing rules that stand up well against any excuse. So that makes it tough for them to get around that one. "I forgot to turn on the lights" during any traffic stop just doesn't cut it, and immediately raises suspicion.

      I think any police department that isn't rotten to the core with good-ol-boys will be able to reliably manage this. A "good cop" is probably going to see this as a positive thing anyway. Even though accusations rarely stick, they love to be able to walk into court when accused of excessive force etc, with a dashcam video or with a store surveillance video that shows them acting properly. An honest cop should have no excuse to hide their behavior when doing their job among the public, and should welcome it.

      Truly honest departments won't fight it tooth-and-nail anytime someone requests records from them. In my book anyway, any department that puts up a fight for access to records of their public behavior needs to have a special investigations team elbow-deep up their business looking for what they're obviously trying to protect the public from seeing.

      --
      I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
    27. Re:And the downside? by JonMartin · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Problem with these cameras of course, bad officers will soon learn to strike out of camera view with fist and truncheon to escalate violence, whilst their partner 'looks' the other way and then deny it with 'proof' of video. Much like DNA evidence, better not get too wrapped into what the camera 'sees' unless they go with a fish eye lens and high resolution so they can extract the scene they are after.

      Yes, yes, a thousand times yes. Photos and video are incredibly powerful and persuasive. Even without doctoring them, they can be tremendously misleading. Present a video in court and a jury will believe that if something is not in the video IT DID NOT HAPPEN. If someone doesn't believe that they can be misled with unaltered photos and video, they are a fool. It happens every day in the news we read and watch.

      --
      Serve Gonk.
    28. Re:And the downside? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I do want them recording when one smashes my face into the road even though i haven't done anything wrong.

    29. Re:And the downside? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They attacked me from behind and knocked the glasses off... I was chasing a perp and lost them... the ways around this never end.

    30. Re:And the downside? by xenobyte · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Well, then you pretty much have to say "any police action which doesn't have the corresponding video will result in disciplinary action".

      Should be even stronger: Require that video evidence by camera-wearing cops be used in court in lieu of the officer's testimony. If they were supposed to be wearing the camera and weren't, their testimony will not be allowed as a substitute.

      Perfect! - Yes, that's exactly what must be done. Require the camera and require that its recording be used, possibly in addition to a normal testimony. But no recording means no testimony, and if no recordings are available, only physical evidence recovered can be used, and only where it isn't in dispute.

      Another obvious thing would be that any insults by the arrestee recorded automatically results in a fine for each if brought to court. People need to respect the police if they expect the police to respect them, and step one is to talk politely and avoid profanity. A fine of $50 for each insult recorded would be reasonable and the fine must be paid in full within 14 days. No extension and no payment plan. This ensures that it will be felt and thus hopefully make people think before they insult.

      --
      "For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong." -- H.L. Mencken (1880-1956) --
    31. Re:And the downside? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Please excuse me whilst I clean my glasses. Oh dear, I seem to have inadvertently elbowed you in the side of the head and omg my taser is falling. Gotta catch it... bzzzzt, So sorry. How did that happen."

      "Ahhh that's better, nice clean glasses."

      "What's that? You want to tell me where the drugs are? My lucky day, clean glasses and a breakthrough in my case."

    32. Re:And the downside? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A HUD with SatNav is the next logical thing...

      "Your target is immediately head."

      "Walk forwards eighty yards."

      "Run the length of the alley."

      "Leap the fence."

      "Turn left sharply."

      "Donuts-R-us will be on your left."

    33. Re:And the downside? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Good police officers still deserve a measure of privacy and personal respect.

      During the course of their jobs, no they do not deserve privacy. That's part of the deal which allows them to point a gun at a citizen, arrest people, and have more rights and power over ordinary citizens.

      Personal respect, no not at all. When you deal with a cop, you're dealing with a badge not with a person. It's the badge and uniform which demand respect, not the individual. If it was a matter of individual respect, then I could choose to listen to one cop and ignore another one.

      This is the same reason why the argument of "don't blame all cops for one bad cop" is bullshit. The actions of anyone wearing the badge reflect upon everyone wearing the badge, just as the authority which comes from the badge is the same for all individuals who have one.

    34. Re:And the downside? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah sure I will pay 50$ into the swear jar as long as cops do the same every time they hit someone while yelling, "Stop resisting".

    35. Re:And the downside? by JosKarith · · Score: 1

      Well any good defense attourney should be able to pretty much shred any cop that tries to bring charges without accompanying video evidence unless there was a clear good reson for its lack.
      I'm all in favour of cops carrying video cameras - preferably streamed in realtime back to a server. After all if they have nothing to hide, they have nothing to fear...

      --
      'Don't worry' said the trees when they saw the axe coming, 'The handle is one of us.'
    36. Re:And the downside? by tofarr · · Score: 2
    37. Re:And the downside? by Custard+Horse · · Score: 3, Funny

      Surely a corrupt police officer will just close their eyes to prevent their nefarious acts from being recorded?

    38. Re:And the downside? by ireallyhateslashdot · · Score: 1

      Another obvious thing would be that any insults by the arrestee recorded automatically results in a fine for each if brought to court. People need to respect the police if they expect the police to respect them, and step one is to talk politely and avoid profanity. A fine of $50 for each insult recorded would be reasonable and the fine must be paid in full within 14 days. No extension and no payment plan. This ensures that it will be felt and thus hopefully make people think before they insult.

      I'm completely fine with that as long as there's an identical fine for each insult/profanity the police officer(s) do, payable to the person being insulted. If I need to respect the police, they need to respect me as well.

    39. Re:And the downside? by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      In the UK the police regularly film everything with hand cameras and now helmet cams, so the public has started regularly filming them too. Several assaults and even a policeman murdering an innocent bystander at a protest (he wasn't even protesting, just walking home with his back to the cops) have been caught this way.

      Unfortunately this is now the world we live in. You have to film the police just to protect yourself and other citizens. It is pretty much your civic duty.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    40. Re:And the downside? by detritus. · · Score: 1

      Disciplinary action regarding internal affairs leads nowhere. Time and time again this has been proven to be ineffective, and usually results in nothing more than paid leave.

      The penalties need to have real teeth. It needs to have mandatory criminal penalties and revocation of their certification to be a police officer if they intentionally leave it somewhere, and drop the charges or commute the sentences automatically of any encounter.
      Transparency is something that needs to be zealously defended - it helps weed out the criminals behind the glasses as much as in front of them.

    41. Re:And the downside? by Sarius64 · · Score: 1

      Yes, at least it was caught. If you think that was the first person that particular cop assaulted the odds are against it. Personally I'd like to see cops automatically suspended for any interruption in their video captures/feeds. Three suspensions, immediate expulsion from the force. All members up to the Chief of Police must wear them. They are reviewed by an non-associative panel.

    42. Re:And the downside? by i · · Score: 1

      Better: make it a felony for a cop to not have a functioning camera active. Third strike = 25 years in prison. :)

      --
      Mundus Vult Decipi
    43. Re:And the downside? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      25 yrs is too harsh... just a suspension of their privilege to be a police officer will be enough....

    44. Re:And the downside? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And what constitutes an insult? I've had to tell a cop to "get the fuck off my property" when he "pulled over" a friend of mine as he was pulling into my drive way. I was in the car, and his lights didn't come on until after his vehicle was on private property.

      Miraculously, he passed his breathalyzer test. Cop was like, "I'm not worried about him anymore; it's you I'm worried about! I don't know if you're drunk or on drugs or both but you got some serious attitude problem! Show your fucking ID when a cop asks for it!"

      So the cop said "fucking" to me too. I refused to show him my ID and made him stand in the street. For the lulz. I was on both as the cop suspected.

      This was a small town with only two cops. I knew this little shit with short-man syndrome. He is the cop that always went over to fuck my girlfriend's (now wife) neighbor. He had no balls, and I had him shaking.

      Would all of that constitute an insult? I was just angry and having a bit of a mean drunk...

  2. Recording avialability by AG+the+other · · Score: 4, Insightful

    When it comes down to a trial the recording will be lost. Bet on it.

    --
    Non bene pro toto libertas venditur auro
    1. Re:Recording avialability by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 5, Insightful

      When it comes down to a trial the recording will be lost. Bet on it.

      And in the absence of otherwise compelling evidence, the jury will see the "lost tape" as evidence that the cops are lying, and they will vote to acquit. Jurors aren't stupid. They know that cops lie all the time, and it is already quite common for cops to be disbelieved.

    2. Re:Recording avialability by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      then the police lose the case instantly.

    3. Re:Recording avialability by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The jury won't be told that a recording ever existed. They still won't believe the police, but the lack of a video won't be admissible.

    4. Re:Recording avialability by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I don't know the answer but I would guess that more often than not, when its you or I in the courtroom against a cop, the cop will usually be believed. shiny blue uniform, all that crapola.

      juries are stupid. only idiots make it thru voire dire.

      sorry, but our system finds the least thinking of our citizens and hires THEM for jury duty.

      I would not want to be judged by my 'peers', truth be said.

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    5. Re:Recording avialability by GodInHell · · Score: 1

      Unlikely -- since destruction of evidence through negligence is evidence, in and of itself.

    6. Re:Recording avialability by swillden · · Score: 2

      The jury won't be told that a recording ever existed. They still won't believe the police, but the lack of a video won't be admissible.

      At the very least they'll know there should be a recording, and I don't see any reason the defense attorney would be barred from asking the officer on the stand "Were you wearing your department-issued officer-cam during the incident? Have you reviewed the footage from your camera? Was the footage consistent with your testimony here today?"

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    7. Re:Recording avialability by onkelonkel · · Score: 4, Interesting

      In Canada we used to believe the word of an RCMP officer over the word of a citizen. The we had the Dziekanski case, where the video clearly showed that the cops were lying. Not only did they lie in their initial reports, but they continued to lie at the public inquiry, even though the video evidence clearly showed they were lying. I think if it came to a "he said she said" with the Mounties now, the citizen would be more likely to be believed.

      --
      None of them can see the clouds; The polished wings don't care.
    8. Re:Recording avialability by skegg · · Score: 1

      When it comes down to a trial the recording will be lost. Bet on it.

      It depends:

      Sometimes the footage goes missing.

      Other times it is salvaged.

    9. Re:Recording avialability by Applekid · · Score: 1

      The jury won't be told that a recording ever existed. They still won't believe the police, but the lack of a video won't be admissible.

      At the very least they'll know there should be a recording, and I don't see any reason the defense attorney would be barred from asking the officer on the stand "Were you wearing your department-issued officer-cam during the incident? Have you reviewed the footage from your camera? Was the footage consistent with your testimony here today?"

      If you can afford a defense attorney. The provided ones for those too poor to afford it won't even get there and go straight to plea bargain, mysteriously disappearing video or not.

      --
      More Twoson than Cupertino
    10. Re:Recording avialability by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You clearly are not a lawyer, so stop pretending to know what you are talking about.

    11. Re:Recording avialability by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      I don't know the answer but I would guess that more often than not, when its you or I in the courtroom against a cop, the cop will usually be believed. shiny blue uniform, all that crapola.

      juries are stupid. only idiots make it thru voire dire.

      sorry, but our system finds the least thinking of our citizens and hires THEM for jury duty.

      I would not want to be judged by my 'peers', truth be said.

      Not necessarily true. At least not from an anecdotal case. I served on a jury recently on a misdemeanor DUI case. We heard evidence for 2 days, and ended up deliberating for another day and a half. All of the discussion was deliberative, was calm. We were given specifically in instructions that because the testimony came from a cop it didn't necessarily automatically make it correct. We were also specifically given instructions as to what to consider and what we were not allowed to consider as evidence, and every member on our jury could make that distinction clearly.

      After that experience I have a lot more faith in the criminal justice system, at least in San Francisco...

    12. Re:Recording avialability by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They are stupid enough not to get out of jury duty right?

    13. Re:Recording avialability by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What an amazingly ignorant comment...

    14. Re:Recording avialability by garcia · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Minnesota Valley Transit Authority buses are all equipped with multiple cameras both internally and externally. When I have either witnessed issues which could be considered safety hazards to the buses and/or the people riding, I have requested these feeds. Most of the time I am told the camera was not functioning at the time and they'd investigate why: http://www.lazylightning.org/mvtas-multimillion-dollar-bus-2-0-is-a-failure

      When they were in the right they were quick to release the tape: http://www.lazylightning.org/mvta-rider-alleges-racism-over-bus-incident

      This is exactly what will happen here.

    15. Re:Recording avialability by 0111+1110 · · Score: 1

      And in the absence of otherwise compelling evidence, the jury will see the "lost tape" as evidence that the cops are lying, and they will vote to acquit. Jurors aren't stupid. They know that cops lie all the time, and it is already quite common for cops to be disbelieved.

      Uh. What are you basing this on? Would you really be willing to turn down a good plea deal and risking years in prison based on the jury being 100% rational and not believing the cop's story just because he/she is a cop? There are lots of people like that.

      One problem with that sort of reasoning is that it ignores the intense desire the average person has to not believe that police ever commit crimes themselves. I think the idea of it scares people too much and they won't believe it without the video to prove it. Even a video is sometimes not sufficient for a jury to believe it as happened in the Rodney King case. If they won't believe their eyes there won't be any way to convince them.

      --
      Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.
    16. Re:Recording avialability by superdave80 · · Score: 1

      But once it becomes 'standard issue' for cops in a particular jurisdiction to be recording everything, juries are going to expect that there is a recording by default. The fact that the prosecution would fail to submit a recording into evidence would probably signal to the jury that something is fishy...

    17. Re:Recording avialability by 0111+1110 · · Score: 1

      I was able to afford a defense attorney (by borrowing the money), but I also took a plea bargain because I was betting that the people on my jury would be idiots and very pro-cop. Taking a plea is often the most rational course whether you have a private attorney or not. Only if I had had incontrovertible proof of my innocence would I have turned down a plea with no jail time rather than risk several years in jail and a serious criminal record. Going to trial is also much more expensive even with a private attorney. I spent $2500 I didn't have just on pre-trial. A trial would have cost me another $5000 that I didn't have. So there are monetary reasons to take a plea as well.

      --
      Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.
    18. Re:Recording avialability by 0111+1110 · · Score: 1

      It's nice to hear stories like yours, but remember that it's still a roll of the dice for a defendant. That's why there are lots of innocent people who when faced with trusting 6-12 psuedo-random (not truly random due to voir dire) strangers aren't willing to do so and take deals, even ones that result in jail time. If you cannot prove your innocence beyond a resonable doubt it is quite often not worth the risk of getting a bunch of pro-police Republicans who believe where there is smoke there is fire and cannot be convinced that a cop would ever lie.

      --
      Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.
    19. Re:Recording avialability by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Unless you have some sort of proof the evidence was destroyed, it wouldn't be destruction or anything over whatever the officer or technical representatives would claim. This is common today in trial where for whatever reason other then intentionally destroying evidence, a video that could have or likely should have been available isn't. And it is also common that someone would claim the video could vindicate them too.

    20. Re:Recording avialability by Mr.+Freeman · · Score: 1

      "but I also took a plea bargain because I was betting that the people on my jury would be idiots and very pro-cop."

      Don't you have the option to just have a judge preside over the trial instead of a whole jury?

      --
      -1 disagree is not a modifier for a reason. -1 troll, flaimbait, redundant, overrated are NOT acceptable substitutes.
    21. Re:Recording avialability by geekoid · · Score: 1

      the officer failed to do his required process. Case dismissed.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    22. Re:Recording avialability by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Actually, you are stupid. You're ego just demands you think everyone else is.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    23. Re:Recording avialability by geekoid · · Score: 1

      trial, defense, and evidence are different then a bus ride.

      You have no recourse with the bus. When you're defense attorney starts asking about the recording, and why it's missing, it will be treated like any other piece of evidences that goes missing.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    24. Re:Recording avialability by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      The officer failing to do something that doesn't infringe a protected right doesn't mean the case didn't happen. I doubt the courts would concur with your assessment.

    25. Re:Recording avialability by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When it comes down to a trial the recording will be lost. Bet on it.

      And in the absence of otherwise compelling evidence, the jury will see the "lost tape" as evidence that the cops are lying, and they will vote to acquit. Jurors aren't stupid. They know that cops lie all the time, and it is already quite common for cops to be disbelieved.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Charles_de_Menezes#Missing_CCTV_footage

    26. Re:Recording avialability by 0111+1110 · · Score: 1

      Judges tend to be even more pro-LEO than juries. While I was sitting in court waiting for my case to come up I watched case after case where it was a cops word against a citizen's. No evidence either way. The judge believed the cop 100% of the time.

      If I hadn't had the choice of a jury trial I might have fled the country. I would have been forced to take pretty much whatever deal the prosecution offered because I didn't believe for a second that a judge would believe me over one or more cops. I'd probably be in jail right now in fact instead of posting on /.

      --
      Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.
    27. Re:Recording avialability by Golddess · · Score: 1

      our system finds the least thinking of our citizens and hires THEM for jury duty.

      Personally, I feel the blame lies more with the idiots who find reasons to avoid jury duty simply because they don't want to do it.

      Or was that just another way of saying that juries are full of people too stupid to figure out how to avoid jury duty?

      --
      "I'm not sure I like the fugnutish tone you used in your post!" -RogL (608926)-
    28. Re:Recording avialability by Culture20 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Actually, you are stupid. You're ego just demands

      Priceless.

    29. Re:Recording avialability by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      juries are stupid. only idiots make it thru voire dire.

      Not entirely true; I was just a prospective juror for a gruesome case, and most people were let go for expressing distaste for the subject matter, despite believing that they could still reason impartially. I was let go for saying that whether I felt excessive distaste would depend on the nature of the evidence (testimony v video exhibit). It seems that voire dire selects more affirmatively for sociopathy than for lack of intelligence (there were some intelligent but cold jurors in the box by the end. One person seemed to enjoy the reading of the charges).

    30. Re:Recording avialability by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When it comes down to a trial the recording will be lost. Bet on it.

      If this is like other states where there have been "dash-cams" for a number of years, the recording only gets lost IF it contradicts the officers "official" story of what happened. If the defense demands to view the video the cops will say it is "unavailable" even if they have to commit purgery.

      http://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/Local-computer-security-expert-investigates-887914.php

      http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Seattle-sues-attorney-over-public-records-request-136704018.html

      http://www.kirotv.com/news/news/cop-in-stomping-incident-involved-in-police-video-/nDmCh/

    31. Re:Recording avialability by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 1

      twice I was called in. twice I had to sign papers stating that I will NOT follow my own concience and will bow to the will of the judge.

      sorry, but I don't agree. am I to be a yes-man or a thinker, evaluating what's going on? even if I don't understand the laws, the final decision is mine and that's how our FF's wanted it.

      they don't outright ask about JN but its in there a few times to see if you answered 'wrong' about it.

      if you intentionally dodge and then invoke JN you can be cited for contempt!!

      sorry but too much hassle. I am not going to risk being thrown in jail for voting my mind.

      I'm telling you: if you've been thru it, you'd know. if you are a JN believer, you will get weeded out one way or another.

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    32. Re:Recording avialability by 0111+1110 · · Score: 1

      I've never had jury duty because I don't vote, but I've always thought I would just lie when asked questions that were obviously intended to rule me out during voir dire if it were a case that interested me. Basically that would mean a case involving a victimless crime or somethng where it is just a cop's word against a defendant or any other case where I feel that for whatever reason justice is not likely to prevail. In that kind of situation I would try to give all the 'right' answers during voir dire so that I could vote to acquit regardless of how much evidence there was for a victimless crime or if there really was not enough evidence for a crime with a victim. I would also consider all police testimony to be a lie until/unless proven otherwise.

      --
      Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.
    33. Re:Recording avialability by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How about the anti-police Republicans? The ones that don't trust the government to do anything? (ex. Police, Health care, tax, school)

    34. Re:Recording avialability by HiThere · · Score: 1

      Find two.. I haven't found even one. I've found a few right wing libertarians who usually vote Republican, but that's not the same thing.

      Most people with right-wing politics claim to support a smaller government, but believe the authority figures...and support their local police. This contrasts interestingly with the people with left-wing politics who claim to support a larger government, but don't trust authority figures, and don't trust their local police.

      N.B.: The policies actually favored by either the left-wing OR the right-wing would, if enacted, result in a larger government with more control of the citizenry.

      For that matter, I have no idea how a dense population with good transportation and good fast communications could exist without an effective government. It's possible that that the government could be largely automated (the was other jobs are being automated), but this doesn't resolve the paradox.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    35. Re:Recording avialability by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Police misbehaviour cases come and go. In a couple of years, no one will remember that case any more.

    36. Re:Recording avialability by mvdwege · · Score: 1

      Actually, the courts do concur with that assessment. And it cost at least one detective his job in a high-profile case; does the name Mark Fuhrman ring a bell?

      --
      "I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
    37. Re:Recording avialability by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      I'm pretty sure you are confused.

      Fuhrman lost his job because he was a racists accused of planting evidence and had a history of violent behavior towards blacks..lol

      He actually retired too, he wasn't fired.

      Also, the problem with his testimony wasn't that something that existed didn't, it was that something did exist and shouldn't. Planted evidence is not the same as destroyed or missing evidence or failing to do something properly.

    38. Re:Recording avialability by mvdwege · · Score: 1

      I'm not confused at all. Whenever there is doubt about the process, there is a good chance that the judge will throw out the evidence.

      Of course I reasoned from the general principle. The rest of us arguing this side in this subthread did too. You, of course, are going to whine about specific details not fitting; the typical behaviour of a right wing nutjob is after all that "it depends on what 'is' is" is perfectly fine when they do it.

      --
      "I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
    39. Re:Recording avialability by DavidTC · · Score: 1

      Most people with right-wing politics claim to support a smaller government, but believe the authority figures...and support their local police. This contrasts interestingly with the people with left-wing politics who claim to support a larger government, but don't trust authority figures, and don't trust their local police.

      That is only interesting if you make an automatic association between 'more government' and 'more _laws_'.

      What the left usually actually wants is more government _services_, not 'more things to arrest people for'.

      I've tried to point this out before, but no one ever listens: It's possible to have a completely fascist and utterly _microscopic_ government. All you need is a secret police and no laws stopping them from doing whatever.

      Likewise, it's possible to have a humongous government that has almost law enforcement at all. The government, could, for example, hire half the population to stand on street corners giving out candy.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    40. Re:Recording avialability by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My wife had to play this game. I told her not to take the plea and take it to trial against everyone's advice. Her/our lawyer was freaking out. Turns out, we called their bluff. They offered to plead guilty to felony charges. By not taking the plea, they watched us sweat for three more months. Two weeks before trial was about to start (and don't get me wrong, I was fucking FREAKING OUT - like a nightmare game of poker that goes on for months - how the fuck can I live without my wife?), they came back and offered another plea bargain this time with misdemeanor charges she was pleading guilty to. She took it.

      That being said, if I had the money, I would have taken it to trial over the misdemeanor because they clearly didn't have a case. They would have dropped the charges, I'm sure.

      We paid about $10,000 total. Also, never talk to the police. Especially if you are trying to "prove your innocence". Just let them charge and arrest you and let your lawyer talk to the prosecutor about whatever you think will prove your innocence. My wife was RoRed, so she only spent a couple of hours in jail (it was good for her, I've been arrested trice times - everyone should spend some time in jail as it is the American way!). Interestingly, if she had not spoke to the cops about what happened and not tried to "prove her innocence" they never would have had enough of a "case" to charge her with.

    41. Re:Recording avialability by HiThere · · Score: 1

      That would be a fair argument if the people who become in charge didn't always engage in "empire-building". If regulations didn't proliferate. etc. But regulations tend to have the force of law, if you want the service, without even the oversight provided by the legislative process.

      So while a larger "more services" government is friendlier to live under, it's just as controlling, albeit with generally a lighter use of coertion. (But I said "control", not "coertion".)

      The result is I usually vote leftish, because I'd rather live in a society that's friendlier, but I'd REALLY rather things could be scaled back to the way they were before WWII. This, however, is impractical when there is dense population, fast transport and fast communication.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    42. Re:Recording avialability by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      You are completely confused then. If the cop forgot to do something that resulted in there not being evidence, there is no evidence. If there is doubt in the claim that this was on purpose because it would exonerate the defendant, it will not be admitted that no evidence was taken of that nature.

      I really think we might be arguing the same point. Except it will be the evidence or the claim about the evidence that is thrown out, not the case. It happens all the time. The cop forgets to write the date on the citation, the judge doesn't care. The cop transposed the social security numbers on the arrest affidavit the night you got locked up. It doesn't change the fact that he saw you smashing a ball bat over the top of someone's head or that you got arrested and jailed. It doesn't mean the case will be thrown out over a clerical error- unless that error somehow violates a protected right (e.g. didn't get a warrant, mistakes cause the wrong person to be arrested, the cop assaulted you until you confessed) .

    43. Re:Recording avialability by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I am EGO!

    44. Re:Recording avialability by DavidTC · · Score: 1

      A lot of the regulations around government services seem to be insisted on by the _right_. The way this actually seems to works:

      The left demands government services in some manner.
      The right demands that it be regulated because, I dunno, they've come to the imaginary idea that people on welfare spend all their money on drugs. So people on welfare must be drug tested!
      The left, being cowards, agree.
      The right then turns around and points at this regulation as government interference and demands 'less government'.

      Almost every single government regulation I can think of attached to a government service is there because the right (By 'the right' also include 'conservative Democrat') started bitching and moaning about abuse of that service, most 'abuses' being totally imaginary.

      And that's not to start on the stuff that _isn't_ a government service but the right wants to regulate anyway, like abortion.

      Or to put it another way: If the left is regulating behavior, it appears to doing so in an honest attempt to help. Minimum wage, smoking bans, etc. And, perhaps tellingly, they regulates _everyone_.

      Whereas when the right attempts to regulate behavior, it often appears to be doing so out of spite, because it doesn't like the entire idea of the government being useful, so adds regulation to that somewhere to make it harder to use. Also, these regulations are often aimed only at specific groups of people they dislike, and the Republican base would never be impacted by them at all. (re: papers please, abortion outlawing, etc.)

      That, I think, are the two important test of government regulation: Are they aimed at _everyone_, or are they just aimed at people who don't vote for the people who passed them? And is there any actual _harm_ caused by the lack of these regulations, or the harm either imaginary or just some trivial government cost?

      Regulations the right demands very often fail one, or even both, of those tests. Regulations the left want usually pass both those tests.

      Please note I'm talking about regulations...the left is perfectly happy in _taxing_ people who don't vote for them, just to make the government some money. (Which is obviously the entire point of taxes.) 'Taxes' and 'regulations' aren't the same thing. The left isn't running around making bankers piss in a cup. (Although, frankly, we'd end up with a much higher percentage of drug users there than testing welfare users.)

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    45. Re:Recording avialability by mvdwege · · Score: 1

      We're not arguing the same point. Your 'clerical errors' are a strawman representation of what was given: the ability of cops to subvert the evidence-gathering process can make the evidence suspect enough to get thrown out.

      In the case of cops with glasses that should be recording, but suddenly show gaps in places that would give a cop's version of events more credence, it is quite possible that the defense gets to argue that this is to cover up misbehaviour of the police and thus taint the entire chain of evidence for the prosecution. Exactly what happend in the O.J. trial.

      --
      "I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
    46. Re:Recording avialability by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If all cops are required to wear recording glasses, the jury will already know that the video should be ready, so your point is invalid. Captcha: Retired

    47. Re:Recording avialability by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      No, there is no strawman here. The situation is the same, if a cop doesn't turn the camera on, all the evidence and everything else will not magically disappear, the case will not be dismissed and it doesn't automagically allow the defense to insinuate something without evidence outside the act to support it. The OJ trial had plenty of evidence showing a pattern of cover ups and misbehavior and even that the lead detective was a racist (in appearance at least). None of that was due to some evidence missing. None of that was due to clerical errors, those things existed in real life outside of the OJ case which is why it was allowed in to show a pattern supporting the claims about the evidence of the case. Without that outside supporting evidence, the claim couldn't be made..

  3. Weightless cameras? by aardvarkjoe · · Score: 5, Funny

    If Chief Burbank gets his way, these tiny, weightless cameras...

    I assume that you get weightless cameras from the same store that physics professors get their "frictionless inclines" and "massless pulleys" from?

    --

    How can we continue to believe in a just universe and freedom to eat crackers if we have no ale?
    1. Re:Weightless cameras? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, you get weightless cameras in space. Unfortunately they gain weight when you bring them down to earth.

    2. Re:Weightless cameras? by meerling · · Score: 1, Informative

      Naw, they still have weight in space, it's just that our scales don't work so well out there :)

    3. Re:Weightless cameras? by jkflying · · Score: 4, Insightful

      They have the same mass in space. Their weight is essentially 0.

      --
      Help I am stuck in a signature factory!
    4. Re:Weightless cameras? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're wrong. In space they don't have weight, but they do have mass. The fine distinction between the two has frustrated many a physics and engineering student over the centuries.

    5. Re:Weightless cameras? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, in space it is weightless. It's just that it still has mass. If you brought it to mars it would have a different weight but still the same mass.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_versus_weight

    6. Re:Weightless cameras? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wrongish, depends on position in space in relation to another mass. They will always have mass but weight will vary from nill/negligible to high depending on the gravity well. Don't care if you are trying to be cute/funny/ironic ;p

    7. Re:Weightless cameras? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      they do. Its incredibly tiny.
      their mass, is constant, though

    8. Re:Weightless cameras? by roc97007 · · Score: 2

      ...and spherical cows.

      --
      Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    9. Re:Weightless cameras? by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      I assume the cameras will be spheres of uniform mass.

    10. Re:Weightless cameras? by Nadaka · · Score: 1

      It would have the same rest mass, but its effective mass would be different thanks to the different orbital velocity between earth and mars and relativity.

    11. Re:Weightless cameras? by TBedsaul · · Score: 3, Funny

      Yes, but it only works for perfecly spherical policemen in a vacuum.

    12. Re:Weightless cameras? by SecurityGuy · · Score: 1

      ...of uniform density.

      I loved that class. :-)

    13. Re:Weightless cameras? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I like turtles.

    14. Re:Weightless cameras? by geekoid · · Score: 1

      There is a Duncan donuts is space now?

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    15. Re:Weightless cameras? by lgw · · Score: 1

      Usually when people say "in space" they mean "in orbit". Weight there is a bit less, but you're not all that far from the Earth and certainly not weightless. It's just that orbit is continuous falling, and it's hard to use a scale in freefall.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    16. Re:Weightless cameras? by guttentag · · Score: 2

      I assume that you get weightless cameras from the same store that physics professors get their "frictionless inclines" and "massless pulleys" from?

      I know that store! Everything is perpetually out of stock.

    17. Re:Weightless cameras? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "our scales don't work so well out there"

      Hmmm. Sounds fishy to me.

    18. Re:Weightless cameras? by Enokcc · · Score: 1

      You are weightless in free fall. You don't experience the force of gravity, i.e. you cannot use a scale. That's weightlessness, not the absence of gravity, but when the force of gravity vanishes in a coordinate frame fixed to you. Thoughts like this brought Einstein to the theory of general relativity.

    19. Re:Weightless cameras? by Neil+Boekend · · Score: 1

      The force of gravity remains, it is just compensated with a centrifugal force. We are just not able to measure only the force of gravity. All we can measure is the net resulting force and that's a vector addition of the gravity and the centrifugal force.

      --
      Well, I might have a way, but it only works on a semi spherical planet in a vacuum.
    20. Re:Weightless cameras? by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      Depends on your definition of "essentially." :) It is only truly zero if the object is the only one in the universe, or it is in orbit around the only other object in the universe, or if it is at a mutual lagrange point for every other object in the universe (which pretty much only happens with fairly exotic and non-stable situations for any more than three bodies).

      But yes, mass is the intrinsic property. :) Well, assuming the Higgs field is completely uniform, or whatever it is that gives things mass - I wouldn't be too sure of anything considering we can't account for most of the mass of the universe.

    21. Re:Weightless cameras? by jkflying · · Score: 1

      Hence the use of "essentially". Although, in hindsight, it is a bit of a bastardisation of the English language - "effectively" probably would have been better.

      And so far I've seen nothing to suggest that the Higgs field is in any way affected by being on the surface of a relatively small planet vs. in orbit of said planet.

      --
      Help I am stuck in a signature factory!
    22. Re:Weightless cameras? by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      The statement just said that mass was the same "in space." That would mean that the mass of an object is constant no matter where in the universe it might be. I only mentioned orbit as a situation where an object has no weight. Would your mass be the same if you were standing next to the Great Attractor - who knows?

    23. Re:Weightless cameras? by SleazyRidr · · Score: 1

      Maybe they're so large that they displace enough air to be neutrally buoyant, and the reporter was just confused...

    24. Re:Weightless cameras? by Muad'Dave · · Score: 1

      That's Dunkin' Donuts, you heretic. Dunkin' as in dunkin' them in your coffee.

      --
      Tiller's Rule: Never use a word in written form that you've only heard and never read. You will end up looking foolish.
    25. Re:Weightless cameras? by lgw · · Score: 1

      There's no such thing as centrifugal force. You feel weightless in orbit because you're falling, exactly like when you're falling and not in orbit.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    26. Re:Weightless cameras? by LunaticTippy · · Score: 1

      There are two such things as centrifugal force. One is an apparent, or fictitious force, and the other is a reactive force. There is a good article on wikipedia

      If you want to experience the reactive centrifugal force, spin a heavy object around on a string. The object will experience a centripetal force and you will experience the reactive centrifugal force.

      --
      Man, you really need that seminar!
    27. Re:Weightless cameras? by Neil+Boekend · · Score: 1

      The problem with centrifugal force is that it is there and it isn't. It depends on your definition of force.
      Centrifugal force is a resulting force. If you define "force" as one of the few elemental forces (gravity and electromagnetism for example) then it doesn't exist. However, it is a resulting force emergent from impulse in a rotating system. One can calculate far more easy in most if not all rotating systems if one just uses the centrifugal force as a "true" force.
      So while it's just the impulse counteracting the gravitational force the point is the same: The gravity isn't gone, it's just counteracted so we can't measure it directly.

      --
      Well, I might have a way, but it only works on a semi spherical planet in a vacuum.
  4. Round 1: FIGHT! by sgbett · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "Privacy Advocates" vs "Police Transparency Enthusiasts"

    Should be a good battle.

    --
    Invaders must die
    1. Re:Round 1: FIGHT! by Isaac+Remuant · · Score: 2

      A real problem many are accurately mentioning is that it won't necessarily increase transparency because usually, on cases of abuse of authority, the recordings "fail" or "are lost" protecting illegal or wrongful activities by the officers.

      There's a handful of examples with car cams.

      --
      "Science can amuse and fascinate us all, but it is engineering that changes the world. " - Asimov.
    2. Re:Round 1: FIGHT! by sgbett · · Score: 1

      A fair, and unfortunate point :/

      --
      Invaders must die
    3. Re:Round 1: FIGHT! by mvdwege · · Score: 1

      Why? I haven't seen a lot of privacy advocates seriously arguing that public servants during the execution of their duty have the same right to privacy as an ordinary citizen.

      --
      "I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
  5. Same shit; different technology. by Raelus · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Much like other police footage, it will be impossible to get a hold of unless the police actually want it publically released. Nothing resembling Rodney King will ever be released to the public because of these glasses.

    --
    "It is the stillest words which bring the storm. Thoughts that come with doves' footsteps guide the world."
    1. Re:Same shit; different technology. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unless it wirelessly and realtimely streams it to the FBI or something like that.

    2. Re:Same shit; different technology. by saveferrousoxide · · Score: 1

      right...because the first thing the FBI does with data it gets is put it out there for the general public to see.

    3. Re:Same shit; different technology. by SeaFox · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Plus they will use it as an excuse to prevent people from doing their own recording. "You can turn that camera off now, this incident is already being recorded by our glasses cameras should the record be needed".

    4. Re:Same shit; different technology. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Given they're taxpayer-paid, and it's SUPPOSED to be completely transparent, that SHOULD be what happens.

      But naturally, power corrupts.

    5. Re:Same shit; different technology. by onyxruby · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Interesting example you cite with Rodney King. What wasn't mentioned until well after the riots is that Rodney King was a known violent offender to the local police. More to the point he was a known violent offender high on drugs, with a gun - in his hand - and the cops were trying to get him to drop it instead of shooting him.

      This was a direct inspiration to police departments around the country to start buying tazers which at that point were not at all widely used. I empathize with your intent, but you'll want to pick another example to make your point in the future.

    6. Re:Same shit; different technology. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thanks for telling us the "real truth" and including all those citations.

    7. Re:Same shit; different technology. by 0111+1110 · · Score: 1

      Never underestimate the stupidity of the average cop. In my state videos used to be taken during arrests and roadblocks, but they were losing too many cases. The video evidence was helping the defendants more often than it was helping the prosecution. So, while I'm sure there was much deleted footage, some did get through and save innocent people from prison. I'm not thrilled with the privacy issue of police recording everything they see, but it's much better than relying on a jury to be as skeptical of their bullshit testimony as they are of the defendant. Police video, and especially requiring it to be present at least for certain contempt of cop sorts of charges may be the only way to limit the power of corrupt, criminal cops. It's the only way to get around the blue wall of silence or to ever get violent, corrupt cops kicked off the force. So I'm 100% in favor of it for all law enforcement officers of any kind. Ideally the footage would even be immediately uploaded to a remote server under civilian, not police, control.

      --
      Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.
    8. Re:Same shit; different technology. by 0111+1110 · · Score: 1

      Which is why it should be uploaded to a neutral third party that no law enforcement agency has direct control of. That's the only way to have at least some chance of the footage being used fairly and not only to help the government's case.

      --
      Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.
    9. Re:Same shit; different technology. by 0111+1110 · · Score: 2

      That ship has sailed already. In every state now I think there are rulings that support recording of the police as long as the camera is within view. Hidden recordings are still questionable in some states. Because of the risk of the cop seizing the camera and trashing it or destroying the media in some way I think hidden recording should be allowed as well.

      --
      Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.
    10. Re:Same shit; different technology. by geekoid · · Score: 1

      If only videos taps of the police didn't show up all the time and get used, you might nearly have a point.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    11. Re:Same shit; different technology. by geekoid · · Score: 1

      That's true, but the beating goes on well past what was necessary.
      Well past.
      I mean, there was what? 20 police standing in a circle around him? The police beating him were right next to him. they could have just taken the gun away.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    12. Re:Same shit; different technology. by jxander · · Score: 1

      Because civilian recorded video is never altered, or edited to paint the cops in a more negative light

      I maintain a default mindset that both sides are equally corrupt and willing to bend the facts to suit their own ends. This just helps to even the playing field.

      --
      This signature is false.
    13. Re:Same shit; different technology. by russotto · · Score: 2

      Interesting example you cite with Rodney King. What wasn't mentioned until well after the riots is that Rodney King was a known violent offender to the local police. More to the point he was a known violent offender high on drugs, with a gun - in his hand - and the cops were trying to get him to drop it instead of shooting him.

      Don't make bullshit excuses for the cops. Rodney King did not have a gun. Nor was he high (he tested positive only for trace amounts of marijuana), though he was drunk.

    14. Re:Same shit; different technology. by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      Seems like the solution would involve cameras, 4G, and a write-only cloud service.

      I've sometimes contemplated what it would be like to record everything that goes on around me and data mine it, and perhaps even publish it. Imagine if lots of people just published logs of all the license plates and facial GUIDs that drove past their homes. There might no longer be privacy, but there wouldn't be secrets either.

  6. Never mind the rest of the story! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    This is the biggest new in several decades! "weightless cameras" WEIGHTLESS!!!! Faster than light here we come!

  7. As long by Sparticus789 · · Score: 2

    I feel sorry for the guy that has to review the footage of the officers. It would defeat their purpose to install an "I have to pee" pause button.

    --
    sudo make me a sandwich
    1. Re:As long by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 5, Funny

      I feel sorry for the guy that has to review the footage of the officers. It would defeat their purpose to install an "I have to pee" pause button.

      By the time they are five, most guys have figured out how to do this without looking down. Some of us can even do it in the dark. Just keep practicing.

    2. Re:As long by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When they know, or suspect, that a woman officer may be reviewing the recording, they'll have to look down ("ewwwwww!" she said).

    3. Re:As long by interkin3tic · · Score: 4, Funny

      I don't know.

      Lawyer: "What are we seeing?"

      Officer: "Well, we're in a high speed chase with the plaintiff in the stolen car... right about now we perform a pit maneuver, forcing the suspect off the road, he attempts to make a run for it at which point the arresting officer tackled him and brought him to the ground, I run over to assist... and at this point I really needed to use the restroom so I did and the camera cuts out. When the video resumes twenty minutes later (I drank a LOT of coffee), the plaintiff has clearly bashed his head against the ground numerous times until he was comatose. I would have prevented him were I not urinating. For twenty minutes."

    4. Re:As long by 19thNervousBreakdown · · Score: 1

      "It's so weird, suspects are suddenly only attacking us and forcing us to shoot them while we're peeing."

      --
      <xml><I><am><so><damn>Web 2.0</damn></so></am></I></xml>
    5. Re:As long by dwillden · · Score: 2

      Naw, they don't need to lie like that. The officer can claim that "Just as I jumped out of the car the seatbelt managed to catch the edge of my glasses and pulled them off, I could have spent the next thirty seconds trying to find and put them back on or I could go assist my fellow officers, who also all managed to knock their glasses off one way or another, in trying to restrain the accused in his attempts to bash his head against the ground repeatedly. Sadly even with the six of us trying to restrain him we were unable to prevent such an action, resulting in his self inflicted coma."

      Eye glasses are very easy to knock off during vigorous activities. Especially by those who aren't really used to wearing them all the time. Or the officer just "absent mindedly" pushes the glasses up onto his forehead giving a nice view of the sky during the encounter.

      --
      I'm too lazy to compose a creative sig.
    6. Re:As long by loneDreamer · · Score: 4, Funny

      So YOU are the guy who keeps missing the toilet in the office! Man, you're almost a legend after all these years...

    7. Re:As long by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If this wasn't slashdot I'd ask if you wife agrees that you can pee in the dark or wishes you'd stop trying.

  8. PPVPD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Man, they could solve any budget issues by selling the streams as Pay Per View channels...

  9. The catch? by MrQuacker · · Score: 1

    So whats the catch? Does it still count as "evidence" in court? Can a defendant use the footage against the police?

    1. Re:The catch? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They already do with dashcam videos on patrol cars. Cops have been sent to prison because of that.

    2. Re:The catch? by Maximum+Prophet · · Score: 1

      ... Can a defendant use the footage against the police?

      How easy are they to crush under a Jack Boot?

      --
      All ideas^H^H^H^H^Hprocesses in this post are Patent Pending. (as well as the process of patenting all postings)
  10. and who will be able to see what the cameras see? by darkeye · · Score: 4, Insightful

    this doesn't change anything unless the cameras are always on, and the public can see all recordings at will.

    if not so, the recordings will only be used when it is favorable for the police, but not the other way around

  11. Two way street by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Have we stopped to consider that this may increase the number of things people get written up for because the officer will be less likely to 'let it slide'? How rampant is police abuse really? Sure, I've seen cops be dicks about things, but I've also had them let me off the hook. If everything they were doing was being recorded, I don't think they would have been as lenient.

    1. Re:Two way street by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes.

    2. Re:Two way street by cyberchondriac · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I don't subscribe to this paranoid hivemind stereotyping that *all* cops are violent, corrupt bastards either; like you said, sure, some are asshats, and get into the "biz" for all the wrong reasons (power, authority) and I hate those pricks (I've known a few), but not all cops. There really are good guys out there too. The bad just get the most publicity.
      That said, most cops are given a measure of leniency when exercising their discretion: if they want to give you that speeding ticket, they can; likewise if they're in a good mood and you're not an asshat at them, they can just let you off with a warning (I've had that happen) - even if the RADAR showed you speeding, they're allowed to let you slide if they decide to, so I tend to doubt this would interfere with that side of things, honestly -unless it was a much more serious offense, and in that case, no one should be sliding anyway, really.

      --

      Look back up at my post, now look back down, you're on the Internet. Now look back up. I'm a signature.
    3. Re:Two way street by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

      The bad just get the most publicity.

      Only if they are caught. And the so-called 'good' cop isn't very likely to expose the bad ones. We all know what happens to a snitch.

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    4. Re:Two way street by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is were cops should have the final say and judgement as to wether to write a ticket or make an arrest. If the footage of course is not of a serious crime. But cops should be allowed to judge if someone speeding was being ignorant and malicious or had a genuinly good reason to speed. I would say for any non capital offense cops should be free to "let it slide".

    5. Re:Two way street by rsborg · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Have we stopped to consider that this may increase the number of things people get written up for because the officer will be less likely to 'let it slide'? How rampant is police abuse really? Sure, I've seen cops be dicks about things, but I've also had them let me off the hook. If everything they were doing was being recorded, I don't think they would have been as lenient.

      I'm going to assume you're not black, latino or homeless.

      --
      Make sure everyone's vote counts: Verified Voting
    6. Re:Two way street by AK+Marc · · Score: 0, Troll

      Then you don't know enough cops. The number of violent criminals mixed in the general population is pretty small, but cops treat everyone they run across as violent felons. So, even if the number of violent corrupt bastards is small, we should still treat them all like that, after all, that's what they do with us. Also, in most cases, there are two types of cops. The corrupt ones, and the ones that cover for them.

    7. Re:Two way street by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And that's a good thing. Selective enforcement of the law is a form of corruption. It let's bullies and racists to "let it slide" when they see fit. If everyone is subjected to the same bullshit laws, and the law is truely bullshit, then it will face political pressure from the masses who suddenly realized that the law applies to them as well and the law will be struck down. No, always enforcing the law is the best way to get rid of bullshit laws.

    8. Re:Two way street by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      On the other hand, before you get fined for anything, cops should have to appear in front of a judge and prove to them that you did it.

    9. Re:Two way street by geekoid · · Score: 1

      So you're concern is that you won't be able to get away with your shit?

      And it's not just abuse. It's process, it's evidence, it mean less relying on the faulty brain, it means more accuracy.
      It is an opportunity to get better enforcement over all.
      It's also an opportunity for real world implication of policy changes to be seen. Good or bad.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    10. Re:Two way street by 0111+1110 · · Score: 2

      I don't subscribe to this paranoid hivemind stereotyping that *all* cops are violent, corrupt bastards either; like you said, sure, some are asshats, and get into the "biz" for all the wrong reasons (power, authority) and I hate those pricks (I've known a few), but not all cops. There really are good guys out there too. The bad just get the most publicity.

      As a recent victim of police brutality and the resulting 'cover charges' I'm not the most unbiased person, but will you at least admit that it makes you feel better about the world to think the way you do? Your view is awfully tempting for emotional reasons is it not? I mean isn't the world a nicer place without a bunch of evil, violent thugs running around with badges, falsely accusing people of serious crimes, beating the shit out of anyone they like whenever they like, and even killing people on occassion? Isn't it nicer to believe the view of cops usually shown to us on TV and film where they are basically the good guys?

      I admit that not every cop is bad. In fact in my case another cop may have saved my life by pulling off the one who was strangling me in an out of control rage. The only reason I don't know for sure is my face was smashed and pinned into the pavement. Of course his saving my life wouldn't stop him from testifying against me in court and standing by the lies of the cop who wanted to kill me.

      Even if only 10% of the police force are violent, evil, sadistic thugs, a rational person pretty much has to treat them all as if they are that way. How can you afford not to? 10% may as well be 100% when one of those 10 out of 100 cops is the one you cross paths with. It only makes things worse when that 10% never lose their jobs and keep comitting crime after crime and filling the courts and jails with the innocent people they falsely accuse because the other 90% never do anything about it.

      They certainly won't help the falsely accused. There were probably at least 15 police witnesses in my case and not a single one stood up to tell the truth about what really happened. At least one was willing to even corroborate his false story. In fact they talked about it right in front of me, agreeing on their story while I lay bleeding on the pavement between them. They obviously had no fear of their fellow officers overhearing their plans.

      Cops pretty much never rat on each other. Even when the crime in question is murder they cover for each other. Lie for each other. The truth is that the police is a gang like any other criminal gang. Their loyalty to the group pales their loyalty to the law or to right or wrong.

      --
      Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.
    11. Re:Two way street by lgw · · Score: 1

      Not that it justifies the cop in any way, but people in general rarely get into uncontrolled rages and strangle the person next to them - too physically demanding, for one thing. Did you do something to set him off, or did he see you talking to his girlfriend, or did he think you were someone else, or what?

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    12. Re:Two way street by 0111+1110 · · Score: 1

      I quietly said, "fuck you" to him after he called me an asshole. That's all I did. After I saw his face turn red I knew I was in deep shit and even said out loud, "Shit!".

      I wanted to run, but it was at a sobriety checkpoint with like 30 cops surrounding me and, anyway, he had a gun and I can't outrun a bullet. In fact I was in such awful condition that walking up my driveway would get me out of breath and I'm sure I couldn't have outrun 30 cops.

      I can't be sure that he really was in an uncontrolled rage. Maybe that's giving him too much credit. All I can really be certain of is what he did to me and that includes crushing my larynx and cutting off my breathing for at least a minute before it seemed that another cop finally pulleed him off of me. I don't really know what he was actually thinking or feeling. He didn't say anything to me after his initial comment to me.

      He didn't "strangle" me in the sense of putting his hands around my neck and squeezing. He used an "arm bar chokehold" on me which means his forearm was under my larynx while he sat on my back and pushed my face down into the pavement with what I assume was all of his strength. His aim was presumably to cut off my breathing. It worked very well at that. He applied so much pressure that he damaged my larynx. The next day all of a sudden I stopped being able to breath (in or out) for no apparent reason while sitting in front of my computer. Luckily I was able to breathe again after 30 seconds or so. It seemed very strange until I started googling about damaged larynxes and found that such a delayed effect happens sometimes from choking incidents and that people actually die from such trauma even long after the initial choking injury. That's why such chokeholds are considered the equivalent of lethal force in many jurisdictions (including mine). It's just too easy to kill someone even if you don't intend to. I think this guy may very well have intended to kill me, but of course I can't be sure. Maybe he would eventually have allowed me to breathe again even if he hadn't been pulled off of me. I obviously hadn't expected such a response from such a common generic curse and in response to one of his own no less. Only a crazy person would react that way.

      --
      Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.
    13. Re:Two way street by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That might help raise public opinion in favour of removing a lot of petty, over-reaching, and obnoxious laws by making sure that everyone is affected by them.

    14. Re:Two way street by Raenex · · Score: 1

      cops treat everyone they run across as violent felons

      I've had over half a dozen interactions with cops, and not once did they treat me as a violent felon.

    15. Re:Two way street by Raenex · · Score: 0

      I quietly said, "fuck you" to him after he called me an asshole.

      I don't condone or excuse in any way a cop reacting violently to this, but you're stupid for doing this. Power corrupts. Don't escalate with the police. Don't give them any excuses.

    16. Re:Two way street by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem is that out of the population that cops interact with most of the time, the relatively very small violent felon population makes up a much larger part. I think that after years of that BS day in and day out, it can really wear down otherwise reasonable people, and that's how cops can end up treating everyone like a violent felon.

    17. Re:Two way street by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is actually a benefit, as when the law is followed to the T we will have a much clearer picture of just how insane some laws are!

      Not to mention a more accurate method of arrests brings about big data, helping to find anomalies such as poor city planning or laws overlapping each other resulting in 2 common sense laws that are now at odds with one another.

    18. Re:Two way street by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "The corrupt ones, and the ones that cover for them."

      See, that's my problem with cops, because if you're the cop who covers for a corrupt cop, then you are also a corrupt cop. There's damned few good ones out there, and I've never met one.

    19. Re:Two way street by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And the 'minority' of bad cops can get away with it because the so-called good cops cover for them.

    20. Re:Two way street by Rich0 · · Score: 2

      Well, the other side of that is that there would be much more pressure to reform laws. If EVERYBODY who drive 56mph in a 55 zone got a fine every time this happened you'd see a huge uproar, since the speed limits are usually unreasonable (by design 20% of the population is SUPPOSED TO BE violating them at any given time, and if anything they're set even lower than that).

    21. Re:Two way street by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Oh boy, it's the victim card again.

    22. Re:Two way street by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, what happens to a snitch?

  12. The devil is in the details by TubeSteak · · Score: 2, Insightful

    For the sake of argument, let's assume that everyone in the Salt Lake PD gets a camera.
    Now the question becomes: who gets to review the footage and for what reason.

    That's where the real devil is.
    The union is going to fight for the most restrictive conditions possible in order to limit reviews of the footage.
    Because, god forbid, the bosses troll through the footage looking for misconduct instead of only checking it when allegations are made.

    So don't think that equipping the police with cameras is a panacea.
    My guess is that it won't be accessible under public records laws
    and the footage will only be used in court cases or when formal complaints are made.

    --
    [Fuck Beta]
    o0t!
    1. Re:The devil is in the details by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 5, Informative

      For the sake of argument, let's assume that everyone in the Salt Lake PD gets a camera.
      Now the question becomes: who gets to review the footage and for what reason.

      Anyone who has a subpoena from a court, either because they are charged with an offense, or because they have a civil suit against the police. This is exactly how it works with any other evidence collected by the police. Was this supposed to be a hard question?

    2. Re:The devil is in the details by TubeSteak · · Score: 1

      Anyone who has a subpoena from a court, either because they are charged with an offense, or because they have a civil suit against the police. This is exactly how it works with any other evidence collected by the police. Was this supposed to be a hard question?

      It's not supposed to be a hard question, but like many things in life, in practice it is more difficult than you would expect.

      Especially since you couldn't be bothered to read the rest of my post,
      where I go into detail about other situations where someone might want to review the footage.

      And I didn't make those scenarios up. They are positions taken by police unions when dashcams were being fitted to cars.

      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
    3. Re:The devil is in the details by swillden · · Score: 1

      And I didn't make those scenarios up. They are positions taken by police unions when dashcams were being fitted to cars.

      And we can see how that worked out. Why would this be different?

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    4. Re:The devil is in the details by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For the sake of argument, let's assume that everyone in the Salt Lake PD gets a camera.
      Now the question becomes: who gets to review the footage and for what reason.

      Anyone who has a subpoena from a court, either because they are charged with an offense, or because they have a civil suit against the police. This is exactly how it works with any other evidence collected by the police. Was this supposed to be a hard question?

      Somewhat circular, because you can't charge them with misconduct, civil or criminal, that you don't know about. For one example, consider a police officer on the take. Whether it's on video or not, it won't get pulled unless someone decides to accuse them.

    5. Re:The devil is in the details by interkin3tic · · Score: 2

      I'd guess that the unions would push for giving the officer discretion at the time for what is recorded and what is not. Perhaps they'll claim it's for the privacy of the accused as well. The accused that they have arrested, fingerprinted, strip searched, and published the mugshots for.

      The police suggest that citizens in public places have no expectation of privacy from drug searches, pat downs, or whatever else, while simultaneously suggesting that officers in public places have an expectation of privacy from citizens taking their picture. It's not like astounding hypocrisy isn't the norm for some law-enforcement types.

    6. Re:The devil is in the details by TubeSteak · · Score: 1

      And we can see how that worked out. Why would this be different?

      Because what's best for the policeman's union may not be what's best for the general public?

      We have an opportunity for a fully accountable police force.
      These eyeglass cams are going everywhere that dashcams won't and I'd rather not see that accountability get neutered.

      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
    7. Re:The devil is in the details by swillden · · Score: 1

      And we can see how that worked out. Why would this be different?

      Because what's best for the policeman's union may not be what's best for the general public?

      And the way it worked out is that any defense attorney or plaintiff's attorney can subpoena the dashcam videos, and will get them, regardless of whether the policeman's union likes it or not. What alternative would be better for the public?

      --
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    8. Re:The devil is in the details by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They don't want to be fully accountable. They have become so corrupt that they dont even recognise their actions as so, unless its on a major level

    9. Re:The devil is in the details by 0111+1110 · · Score: 1

      They can't get the footage if it isn't there. If the cop is caught on video doing something illegal you can bet that he is going to try his very best to make that footage disappear and other cops are likely to cooperate. Especially buddies of the cop in question. If the recording media is local it will simply be destroyed immediately.

      --
      Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.
    10. Re:The devil is in the details by TheSync · · Score: 1

      Now the question becomes: who gets to review the footage and for what reason./blockquote.

      Google of course, who will index it using face recognition and license plate reading so it will show up in Google searches of your name under "Videos".

      This is a public record after all...

    11. Re:The devil is in the details by lgw · · Score: 1

      This would all be useless (or worse) unless the footage goes somewhere where the cop would have a really hard time destroying it. But that's pretty obvious. One wonders which side of this obvious fact motivates the police chief to wont this.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    12. Re:The devil is in the details by number11 · · Score: 1

      The union is going to fight for the most restrictive conditions possible in order to limit reviews of the footage.
      Because, god forbid, the bosses troll through the footage looking for misconduct instead of only checking it when allegations are made.

      Don't kid yourself, the bosses (chief, mayor, city council) don't want to see any misconduct either, because it would reflect poorly on them. they don't want successful lawsuits against the police, those can be expensive. They don't want to look anti-cop, because the general public thinks cops are heroes and anything they do to somebody, the perp probably had it coming anyhow.

    13. Re:The devil is in the details by mvdwege · · Score: 1

      Because this allows OP to derail the topic to one of the right wing's favourite topics: union-bashing.

      To the OP: the reason the union complains is because it's made up of police officers, so your statement adds nothing new to the discussion, as it has already been established that police officers are making noises that they don't like this.

      --
      "I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
    14. Re:The devil is in the details by swillden · · Score: 1

      FWIW, I agree that unions are a net negative in most cases. But the point is they've already fought this battle, and lost it, so there's no reason to expect a different outcome this time.

      --
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  13. Court should require video by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If all officers are required to wear these, any time there is a question of what the cop did or said, vs what you did or said, if they can't provide the video they should accept your word. No more wrongful charges of resisting arrest or assaulting an officer. If it's not on video it didn't happen.

    1. Re:Court should require video by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If it's not on video it didn't happen.

      So are you saying we should replace all defense attorneys with B-tards?

    2. Re:Court should require video by 0111+1110 · · Score: 1

      He's saying that by requiring the police to have video to back up their testimony there will be a lot less need for defense attorneys in the first place.

      --
      Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.
  14. Forge : Bind : Predictive Software by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    wearable mobile trapwire.

  15. Where can I get a camera for my civilian glasses? by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

    The vast majority of encounters are fine -- its the rare ones blown up on tv that are the exception.

    This should cut down on lawsuits rather than make police look bad.

    If it surprises you police would want this, you've bought into the meme that police problems are rampant.

    Sorry, your days enjoying bad cop disasterbation are coming to an end.

    --
    (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
  16. What's the surprise by viperidaenz · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The police don't want people making recordings because they can't stop it being used out of context.
    They already put cameras in their cars.
    In my country a whole police oversight investigation was launched because the media published a photo using the "look I'm holding up the hollywood sign" perspective to make it look like an officer was point his gun at the head of a teenage who was face down on the ground. Turned out the police officer was pointing his gun at the ground 3 metres away while walking in a different direction. The investigation wasted a lot of time and resources because there was no footage from another perspective.

    1. Re:What's the surprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The police don't want people making recordings because they can't stop it being used out of context.

      I suspect that the police will not care if I believe that they are using their recordings out of context in a way that I don't like. So they have no right to that privilege.

    2. Re:What's the surprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When you are arrested, there is no out of context. Your freedom has been revoked. I am quite sure all the relevant facts are quite pertinent. A helmet (or eye) camera is quite different from a fixed remote perspective.

      If there are contextual matters, that's what the judge and jury are for.

  17. Hmm... by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 0

    I wonder if the harsh vibrations associated with giving a 'suspect' the sound wuppin' that soft-on-crime liberals don't want his perp ass to get causes these to malfunction?

  18. The Camera lies by Maximum+Prophet · · Score: 2

    It sure will be nice when there is video evidence to show the real story."

    Unfortunately, there's always a sampling bias with any recording device. The "real story" could easily be right off camera, or between frames.

    Of course, if there are enough of these, and multiple officers at the scene, you might be able to stitch together the whole scene. On the other hand, most police mistakes occur at night in challanging situations for small video cameras.

    --
    All ideas^H^H^H^H^Hprocesses in this post are Patent Pending. (as well as the process of patenting all postings)
    1. Re:The Camera lies by geekoid · · Score: 1

      ye,s the the information we do have, will still be better. I would rather have something happen off camera once in a while then always relying on the memory of the police.

      And it's not just police, everyone's memory is faulty and reasonably easy to manipulate.

      It's better, not perfect.

      The perfect is the enemy of the good.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  19. This is not news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Police officers are wearing officer mounted cameras more and more. This is not news. Having a record of events protects the department from fictitious claims which happen all the time. The video has a simple on and off button, most of these systems hold 2-4 hours of video. It is automatically uploaded, usually via wi-fi and only reviewed by supervisors when a need arrizes. Usually this video is stored on servers and is automatically deleted after a set period of time determined by policy. Given that they have a decent IT policy implemented..."Losing" this footage would be pretty difficult.

  20. Step in the right direction. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm a huge advocate of privacy, but police wearing physical recording devices while on duty is not 24/7 survalience and is not survalience on your private property unless they have a reason to go there. Which usually requires a warrent, or invitation. Hence it is not a violation of privacy.

    I think police evidence being backed by recordings audio, visual or otherwise is a good step in the right direction. It would allow us to improve our police force through better training as well. Just think about it after recording grandma being stopped and searched by police randomly at the mall. Allot of good can come from this if police are trained to be polite and respect our constitutional rights. (like not being searched randomly without a warrent or probable cause) Some departments I imagine lack in this.

    Its also great for those times when "lethal force" is questionable. It will help responsability and improve the publics understanding of when lethal force is needed or appropriate. I bet there are lots of times when police were in a confrontation with someon well within their rights to refuse interaction and should have returned with a warrent or arrest order. I bet lots of times this has escalated causing loss of life on both sides.

    After action reports that are clearly transparent to the departments and public are the best tool to fixing those types of issues.

    And lastly, police corruption is allot harder when you have to fake video or avoid recording a bribe. Yeah it could still happen off duty. But at least recording these things stops them from happening on the fly, on a persons bad day. No one is perfect.

    1. Re:Step in the right direction. by vlm · · Score: 1

      Just think about it after recording grandma being stopped and searched by police randomly at the mall.

      Unfortunately this is the most likely outcome. The cops where I live are legendary for pulling people over for DWB so if they're accused of harassing teenage wanna be gangbangers at the mall, that means they'll HAVE TO harass at least fifty powerwalking grannies at the mall and release the footage of the grannies to "make it fair". Its probably going to be extremely annoying for civilized people who just want to be left alone.

      I think facial recognition should be applied, to some extent. Just to "get the numbers up" while guaranteeing no legal issues, I suspect a lot of evidence of non-racial profiling stop and frisk will be daily records, and an observant viewer or facial recog program will identify the officers wife as a stop and frisk "volunteer" every single day, or anti-DWB evidence will be pull overs of white people who turn out to be the officers off duty partner or relative in his personal car. Even weirdo cops don't want pointless confrontation so I suspect there will be a lot of gaming the system. Just wait for the first "profiling" lawsuit where the plaintiff runs the defense's "proof" thru a facial recognition program... it'll hit the fan I bet.

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
  21. Perfect by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is a GREAT idea.

  22. Chief Burbank's support is not a plus to this by dwillden · · Score: 4, Interesting

    He's on record in many instances against our freedoms and rights, he's not a fan of privacy or the right to record his officers on duty. And as for SLC, well this is a city that will cite you for idling too long, waiting to pick your kids up on a cold winter day with below freezing temps or a hot summer day with 100+ temps, this is a city that finds every little fine and penalty it can to drive visitors away from it. And this is par for the course. As others have noted it will be nearly impossible for them to "find" the footage if it helps your defense. However if it proves your guilt they'll be sure to have it ready for the prosecution.

    And why glasses? Not every officer wears glasses. Yes many with good vision do wear sunglasses during the day but not all and what about at night? Rather if they really want to put camera's on their officers they should look at what other communities in Utah have been doing for a few years now, pin-hole camera's mounted in their ties. Far less burdensome as they already all wear a tie as part of the uniform, now the camera just makes the tie-tack a little larger.

    --
    I'm too lazy to compose a creative sig.
    1. Re:Chief Burbank's support is not a plus to this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The glasses are convenient as it it not suspicious to remove your glasses if you don't need them while removing your tie while on duty is strange.

    2. Re:Chief Burbank's support is not a plus to this by oxfletch · · Score: 1

      Presumably because glasses will turn with your head / field of vision, whereas a tie will not.

      I guess a hat would work too.

    3. Re:Chief Burbank's support is not a plus to this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And why glasses? Not every officer wears glasses. Yes many with good vision do wear sunglasses during the day but not all and what about at night?

      non corrective lenses. extra points if they are light sensitive and automatically darken in sunlight.

    4. Re:Chief Burbank's support is not a plus to this by geekoid · · Score: 1

      hats fall off to easily. And strapped on they become a hazard during a confrontation. Which is why they wear clip on ties.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  23. Cops and the Community need to co-exist by NinjaTekNeeks · · Score: 4, Insightful

    There is a constant us vs. them mentality with the general public and the police. Even with a motto of "protect and serve", it is often obvious that this is not what the bad cops intend. With video recordings, weeding out the bad cops will be very easy, which will lay groundwork for the good cops to continue to build a relationship with the community.

    When the police are a menace to the neighborhood then the neighborhood will not work with them, they will not come forward with evidence and they will not testify. If the police can improve on these relations it is likely people will be more forthcoming with information.

    This is a win for everyone involved, however as others have stated I have a feeling that the footage will not be as freely available as we would like.

    1. Re:Cops and the Community need to co-exist by MozeeToby · · Score: 1

      The police have power over us (it's a power that we grant them as part of their job). Power corrupts and attracts the corrupt, maybe not everyone every time, but often enough that every major police force in the world is going to have a handful of officers who simply should not be given that power. That small handful is more than enough to turn the majority of citizens against the police if they are allowed to continue to operate.

      It doesn't have to be kicking down the wrong door at 4 AM with guns blazing, and it is just as often a cop who is will to do "a favor" for a friend and take care of a "problem" that they have. My daycare provider for instance, had a dog that barked, annoying yes, but the dog was also completely harmless. One day, the gate was mysteriously left open, 10 minutes later the cops were there with a citation (based only on the statement of 1 person that the dog was loose). When she asked for an explanation, suddenly there were 3 cop cars outside her house... for a loose dog. When she went to the police station to file a complaint, she was denied a complaint form, detained for 2 hours, and had a background check done (which after more than an hour of checking "found" that her license was expired (and it wasn't - apparently there was a 'clerical error')).

    2. Re:Cops and the Community need to co-exist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When was the last time you saw their 'motto' stamped on side of the car/suv/truck? It's been well over a decade here. Consequently I can only assume that is not their motto anymore - which leaves the rest of the argument moot?

    3. Re:Cops and the Community need to co-exist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      that assumes the police are interested in a positive relation with the public.

      AFAICT that stopped being the case about the time when they stopped defining themselfves as peace officers and started defining themselves as (law) enforcement officers.

  24. I'm down with this by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

    Especially when we all get a pair to record the cops from our POV. And the best part is they won't know they're being recorded, and won't be able to steal our previously used phones.

    --
    “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    1. Re:I'm down with this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You could get the same model they have:
      http://www.taser.com/products/on-officer-video/axon-flex-on-officer-video

    2. Re:I'm down with this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I would think that the biggest complaint about this from SLC citizens is the $1000 cost per camera not counting for storage costs. That's nuts.

    3. Re:I'm down with this by suutar · · Score: 1

      Sweet. Still looking on the site for how much storage it has (or how to connect it to a belt pack or something); I've been wanting one of these to take to costume-heavy conventions for _years_.

    4. Re:I'm down with this by SecurityGuy · · Score: 1

      I'm not a SLC citizen, but if the average police officer makes ~$40,000/year (I googled) and we let them drive around cars ($20,000 minimum) and make it legal for them to use deadly force (what's your life worth?), then I'm ok with spending $1,000 for a camera to document what really happened.

    5. Re:I'm down with this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Forget the cops, use them for cleavage-cams!

    6. Re:I'm down with this by 0111+1110 · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately in my state I could be prosecuted under surveillance laws unless I told the cop that he was being recorded. Well, at least if it records audio. If it is video only I'm not sure.

      --
      Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.
    7. Re:I'm down with this by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

      Yes, those laws need to be seriously challenged at every turn. Loss of privacy rights should accompany any position of authority, especially that with a license to kill.

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    8. Re:I'm down with this by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

      Oh damn! I should've added that you can tell him he's being recorded, but you don't have to tell him where the camera is located.

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
  25. Additional provisions are required by jd659 · · Score: 1

    We already have a plethora of cameras installed for "our safety" and they was used to prosecute the general public. But when anyone in the UK has tried to obtain the footage from such cameras to use as the defense against police, the video was always not available. ALWAYS.

    The measure may have a positive impact ONLY IF an additional provision is passed to require no arrests be made unless the undoctored complete footage is made available to courts. Now, there are many difficulties in defining and verifying the "undoctored" footage. Besides, what to do if the police was beating a bystander while holding his head up so that the camera does not catch the footage at that specific angle? The provision must also include the certain angle of the recorded scene be available to prevent officers from pulling the cameras up and recording the skies.

    --
    There's no such thing as "illegal download"
  26. The Matrix by jfdavis668 · · Score: 1

    Let's just skip this and go straight to the Matrix. Make all of life virtual, so we can replay it if there is a trial.

  27. Whoops..... by P-niiice · · Score: 1

    Sorry chief, my glasses/camera fell off just as the perp started hitting himself in the head with my baton several times. I tried to stop him.

  28. Re:and who will be able to see what the cameras se by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 1

    even if the video is not used, there should be gap-tests that PUNISH the officer if periods of time 'go missing' on video.

    you know this won't happen; they won't be called on their BS.

    but do expect a lot of gaming and BS to go on.

    this is no gift to citizens. they have an angle and they are playing it. we won't benefit from this, be assured ;(

    --

    --
    "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
  29. If we can't record them, they shouldn't record us by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That only seems fair when people get arrested for taking video evidence of cops abusing law-abiding citizens.

  30. yuh huh by Taibhsear · · Score: 1

    And just like the dashboard cameras, any shenanigans will have been conveniently off-camera. Anything incriminating you will be taped and ready. Anything incriminating them will have been coincidentally lost or the camera just happened to be broken at the time of the incident. Electronics are just so fussy these days...

  31. 3D Scene Reconstruction by Kylon99 · · Score: 1

    As some have stated already on here; with enough angles we can reconstruct the scene and understand it; i.e. thinking a gun was pointed at someone in one angle only to see it was not in another angle.

    Well, let's take technology one step further; with multiple angles, can we develop something to auto construct a 3D representation of a scene and play it back? If you have 3 or more cameras it should be fairly accurate...

  32. Welcome in the future by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Seriously, why is anyone surprised ? It was obvious that this was going to happen. Just like it is obvious that as soon as these thing get affordable EVERYONE will have one.

  33. What about data storage / battery life? by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    What about data storage / battery life? and how much and for long is that video stored for?

  34. Audio by vlm · · Score: 2

    I think its odd they skipped the whole audio era. You can buy a little flash drive recorder that'll record for hours right now, for practically nothing. Its hard to find a smart phone that doesn't come with an audio recorder app. Yet I never heard of the cops doing audio recording in the past. Odd. You'd think it would be almost as useful. Imagine the jury listening to the slurred speech of a suspected drunk driver at trial, etc.

    --
    "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    1. Re:Audio by suutar · · Score: 1

      wiretap laws, maybe?

    2. Re:Audio by number11 · · Score: 1

      I think its odd they skipped the whole audio era. You can buy a little flash drive recorder that'll record for hours right now, for practically nothing. Its hard to find a smart phone that doesn't come with an audio recorder app. Yet I never heard of the cops doing audio recording in the past.

      I used to get catalogs from the vendors that sell to public-safety types. Gadgets to break auto glass with, neat gear for your auto office, decals for the side of your car, lights for the roof, leather gloves (with or without lead loading), and yes, concealed audio recorders to wear. Not the secret "wearing a wire" stuff, I think they transmitted back to a recorder in the car (this was 20 years ago, so no video eyeglasses).

  35. There's a reality series in there some where by Grayhand · · Score: 1

    I'm not exactly sure what you can do with thousands of hours of footage of donuts but they have TV series where they film people's storage units so it wouldn't be the worst reality show out there.

    1. Re:There's a reality series in there some where by MozeeToby · · Score: 1

      No one's ever had that idea before.

  36. Re:and who will be able to see what the cameras se by swillden · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I don't think the public will or should ever be able to see all the recordings at will. Police officers are often in places and looking at things that the public does not have a valid interest in seeing -- not because of the officers, but because of the rights of the public with whom they're interacting.

    I'm sure the defense would be able to subpoena the relevant segments of recordings, though, and the police will have some explaining to do if they're routinely not available.

    --
    Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
  37. Yeah right! by Cute+and+Cuddly · · Score: 0

    But the video recordings will be confidential and you will need a freedom of information request that will be rejected on "national security" grounds

  38. Re:and who will be able to see what the cameras se by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    this doesn't change anything unless the cameras are always on, and the public can see all recordings at will.

    Terrible idea. Big Brother is bad enough, but Little Brother is far worse.

  39. Missing a couple of pieces by Crypto+Gnome · · Score: 2

    That's nice for a start - but you need at least two more things:

    - GPS tracklog
    - accelerometer/orientation tracklog

    THEN you would not only know what the camera was looking at, but from where (GPS) and from what viewing angle/direction (orientation).

    In theory it would allow you to post-process logs from multiple officers into a virtual-scene.

    PLUS you need to have legislation which guarantees people the right to view the logs and imposes massive fines and other penalties for "oops, we seem to have lost that footage" probably including an immediate dismissal of any case.

    --
    Visit CryptoGnome in his home.
    1. Re:Missing a couple of pieces by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yea, but you can do all that with a $500 smartphone. These are $1000, so my buddy that resells this cheap made-in-China camera can make a $700 profit off each one.

  40. Not a step forward at all by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Most cops already have camera's mounted on their police vehicles. They have never had a problem with their own camera's recording the action, they use this footage to prosecute the people they arrest, and when the footage shows something the cops don't want seen the video tape is conveniently 'lost' before the trial. This happens ALL THE TIME.

    Actually, they often don't have to be dishonest to do this. Many states have laws that allow prosecutors to decide whether this footage can be shown in court, or weird regulations regarding when and under what circumstances defense attorney's can review the footage, exact details vary by state but in general the police and prosecutors have a LOT of control over such evidence and can easily prevent it from being seen.

    The problem has ALWAYS been citizens recording cops. Because even if you are arrested, there are laws in place that protect your property and prevent cops from confiscating the video footage. Once it's your property you have a lot of control regarding whether it can be shown in court or not.

    BOTTOM LINE: Us recording cops is good. Cops recording us is bad

  41. SciFi - Continuum, etc by Tim12s · · Score: 1

    Its funny how SciFi predicts this eventuality. The obvious result of this is that the police officers have to continually uphold themselves to higher standards because they are now clearly accountable for their actions. The less obvious result of this is that they are more clearly able to enforce the law to a greater degree than before due to the next logical step of the reliance on technology.

  42. Catching criminals by wisnoskij · · Score: 1

    Seems like this should help getting evidence against criminals as well.
    It gives an unbiased account in instances when all we had was the officers word and the footage of fleeing criminals can be studied in detail to try and identify them.

    --
    Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
    1. Re:Catching criminals by ZombieBraintrust · · Score: 1

      Not to mention that the glasses will be hooked into a database a of mug shots and warrants. Face recognition will allow cops to spot suspects they didn't even know they were looking for. Robo Cop never forgets a face.

  43. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  44. wireless transmission of images to worn storage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    1) interception of the images
    2) planting false evidence
    3) ???? maybe sell cloud storage contract
    4) profit!!!!

  45. Outstanding! by Nexion · · Score: 0

    This will not only likely increase the quality of enforcement, but in the long term hopefully increase the public trust in their enforcement officers.

    Truly great to see a department moving in this direction.

  46. Maybe they are legally weightless? by davidwr · · Score: 1

    As in, what they record will have no weight on the scales of justice???

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
  47. The "upside" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Do a FOIA or Gramma request for all the footage. Then determine who the "best" man is from the bathroom footage :-)

  48. 5th amendment, "wiretapping" laws by raymorris · · Score: 1

    Anything a suspects SAYS os protected by the fifth amendment, so the jury would never hear the drunk. Add to that federal and state "wiretapping" laws prevent audio recording, but not video. Maybe tjey could do it within the law, but "wiretapping" laws are a bit of a minefield.

    1. Re:5th amendment, "wiretapping" laws by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law."

  49. Cory Doctorow Predicted it... by ilikenwf · · Score: 1

    Pirate Cinema has this very thing...to get around it they use radar equipped bug zapping hats (with lasers, designed to kill mosquitoes) and modify them to zap cameras instead.

  50. How about Politicians? by trout007 · · Score: 2

    I always thought it would be cool to run a congressman as a reality candidate where they were broadcast live 24/7 their entire term.

    --
    I love Jesus, except for his foreign policy.
  51. You're not considering the benefits by Lucas123 · · Score: 1

    Combine these with x-ray vision glasses, and terrorism would drop to zero. http://www.buy.com/prod/unisex-halloween-x-ray-vision-glasses/223443714.html?listingId=250782707

  52. New company idea by wagr · · Score: 1

    [We] will provide look-alike actors, scene reproduction with suggested "improvements", and plausibly-authentic time stamped footage for a "small" government-only-affordable fee.

  53. It's a trap by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Now they'll be able to outlaw recording of the police. When we object that this leaves police with no oversight, they can point to their cameras and say "yes there is"

  54. Reminds me of the Seattle Creepy Cameraman... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://blog.seattlepi.com/thebigblog/2012/10/31/who-is-seattles-creepy-cameraman/
    But with a gun and perceived authority to go anywhere they wish.

  55. Should be required to arrest. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The camera will have to be on for at least 5 minutes before the police can arrest. Missing camera footage should automatically have the person released.

    Of course, if one officer has his camera working, other's can "assist" him in arresting.

  56. Biased posting? by ubrgeek · · Score: 1

    > One of the biggest shockers to me is that the police chief is in strong support of this measure

    Um ... why? Let's see, we've posted on ... what? Maybe 20 cases where cops have violated things like people's right to record them. (Have there been more? Sure. Not the point.) In how many of them have the police chiefs actually been directly involved, vice standing up for their officers until the state AG (or courts) told them their officers were wrong? Now figure out how many chiefs of police there are in the country. I think the vast majority of police do it for the right reasons, which makes me think the majority of police chiefs do it for the same reasons. Proof? None other than gut and working with the police for 20+ years in multiple capacities (including ones that would often be potentially antagonistic when I worked for newspapers). So while you may personally be shocked by the fact that the chief is in support of the initiative, I think it may (possibly) be an unfair bias.

    --
    Bark less. Wag more.
  57. Video tends to support whoever's right. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If a police department records all of their officers whenever they're on duty, then even when one of them does go bad, they still come out ahead because they can show that they're taking reasonable measures to prevent police brutality.

  58. Re:and who will be able to see what the cameras se by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm sure the defense would be able to subpoena the relevant segments of recordings, though, and the police will have some explaining to do if they're routinely not available.

    Yeah, because that's been working amazingly well so far with the dashboard cams.

  59. Solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Every instance where a police video record is destroyed or lost within a year needs to begin with the phrase (translated into proper lawyer)

    "Motion for dismissal on grounds of spoilation of evidence"

    Or in event of a civil suit... (which should follow the dismissal in all instances as a clearcut violation of US code S 1981...)

    "Motion for forfeiture on grounds of spoilation of evidence under Rule 37 or Title 18"

    followed by a RICO prosecution in the event where this happens with any provable consistency.

    If they lose the footage. If the camera is broken. If the cameras are broken more than 1% of the time -- they need to be brought to justice.

  60. Utah recently came in #2 in Math & Sceince in by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A recent study on education put Utah as #2 behind California for scores in Math & Science among the Western states. The State of Utah has no debt (in fact they have a rainy day fund). Utah houses a large tech sector including companies like Adobe, Microsoft, Overstock, Ancestry.com, FamilySearch.org and many more. The recent HPC conference was just held in the Salt Palace convention center in Salt Lake. There is a massive NSA computing facility under construction. Besides all that boring stuff they have the greatest snow on earth.

  61. Re:and who will be able to see what the cameras se by Dekker3D · · Score: 1

    Just flag any cop who gets one of these as having one.. and if they catch someone without having full footage of the arrest, the arrest is denied and the arrested person (victim) is pardoned by default. Yes, you'd have a few more criminals on the street for the first while, until the police officers learn that it is -vital- that they actually keep recording while doing their duty.. and that they avoid doing unsavoury things while recording.

    With such a system, police brutality could be reduced immensely. If mandated by someone big, it could really make a big change towards safety and freedom. Sadly, it'd also affect privacy somewhat. On the positive side, the safety/privacy tradeoff is much better than that of NSA posturing or any number of other post-9/11 silliness.

  62. Re:Where can I get a camera for my civilian glasse by 0111+1110 · · Score: 1

    Keep in mind this is only in Utah. In my state the police don't even have the easily evaded dashcams. I assume that is because they are corrupt enough to know that it will only serve to limit their activities. When you are able to assume that juries take your world as gold in court you don't need video backup. The defendants are the ones who need it. The cops know that most jurors think "where there is smoke there is fire" and that most jurors also agree with your "the cops are the good guys" assumption. This will end up hurting them more than helping them. Just wait and see. Of course I think it is great if you live in Utah. It won't stop routine police beatings and false court testimony, but it is at least a move in the right direction.

    --
    Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.
  63. About fucking time by Nyder · · Score: 1

    Since cops are allowed to lie to "suspects' (which means anyone they talk to), this is a must. Cops are trained to lie to "suspects", which means, cops are trained to lie. Can they stop lying when in court? They are human, do other humans lie in court? Why yes, yes they do.

    Now we can finally have some video evidence to back up what the police are doing. I am all for this. The police need to be monitored.

    --
    Be seeing you...
  64. Re:Utah recently came in #2 in Math & Sceince by 0111+1110 · · Score: 1

    They also have sobriety checkpoints. No thanks. I prefer states that actually believe in freedom and where I am free to drive without being harassed by the police unless I am doing something genuinely suspicious.

    --
    Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.
  65. This is a preview of the US under Romney. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The Mormons are a bunch of fucking nut cases.

    If you don't believe this you are either a Mormon or
    you have no experience with Mormons.

  66. Re:Utah recently came in #2 in Math & Sceince by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They also have sobriety checkpoints. No thanks. I prefer states that actually believe in freedom and where I am free to drive without being harassed by the police unless I am doing something genuinely suspicious.

    It appears your allegiance to Der Fuehrer is questionable.

    North Carolina does the same checkpoints. It is unconstitutional,
    but I am afraid they will continue until the citizenry resists, which may
    never happen. And that is a good reason not to live in North Carolina,
    which is a land of sheep and idiot scum.

  67. Camera vs. Human Optics by Lurker2009 · · Score: 1

    I had a conversation recently with an officer about cameras like these, and his recent testing of one for the department, and his concern was the similarity of the cameras acuity and his own. For instance, if he can see through the glare in a window but the camera can't, the recording might be used to say that he didn't have probable cause. Vice versa -- if the camera can see things he can't, a post-incident review might well say "why did you do X when _clearly_ you can 'see' blah blah".
     

  68. Re:and who will be able to see what the cameras se by swillden · · Score: 1

    I'm sure the defense would be able to subpoena the relevant segments of recordings, though, and the police will have some explaining to do if they're routinely not available.

    Yeah, because that's been working amazingly well so far with the dashboard cams.

    It does all the time. The dashboard cams often don't get anything of use because abusive cops are smart enough to stay out of their field of view, but that's a different issue entirely, and not one that is nearly as easy for bad cops to manage when the camera is mounted on their head.

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  69. X-ray glasses by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I miss the old X-ray glasses advertised in comic books.

    http://www.thegag.com/forum-24902.html

    Of course, they had nothing to do with x-rays

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-Ray_Specs_%28novelty%29

    I never ordered them, but I remember being taken, as a youth, by the idea of seeing through, oh, I don't know, clothes, as promised in the ad.

  70. soon to become reality... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0093894/

    The Running Man

  71. I'm an average citizen and I support this plan! by trapvector · · Score: 1

    After all, US law enforcement has never found a way to illegally abuse newly-granted surveillance powers.

  72. So how many TB of doughnut images will that be? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And is there a compression algorithm that works for plain, sugar coated and the ones with sprinkles?

  73. This is bad for public recordings by terminal.dk · · Score: 1

    Now the police can show the full picture, and what lead up to them having to use force, and not just the edited version making it look like they attack innocents.

  74. Re:and who will be able to see what the cameras se by mvdwege · · Score: 1

    I don't see how it would affect privacy. Given that these are officers doing their work in public, no-one has an expectation of privacy anyway, that is the whole meaning of 'public' in the first place.

    The only question remaining is the storage and retrieval policy regarding the footage; that may have some privacy implications.

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  75. Helmet-cams by Half-pint+HAL · · Score: 1

    Don't get too excited. The Met (London Metropolitan Police) frequently use "helmetcams", but whenever a complaint is raised against them, the unit in question is mysteriously faulty....

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  76. Or it will show most cops are Public Servants by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I for one see this as a waste of money because the whiners and abused are in such a minority that its almost inconsequential but for the media hype spun so often that we forget that most of the abused were being dipshits and committing criminal activity in the first place. There are those corrupt instances, but we are way oversaturated with BS media coverage. Go to another country and be treated by Uniformed officers as respectfully as the US. Why do you think so many people the world over want to be here. The corruption is minimal, the media just needs a reason for existence on a daily, hourly, and moment to moment basis. Life is alot better than these comments would make me think.

  77. "Eye" and "Head" mounted Cameras don't work by tubs · · Score: 1

    "Eye" and "Head" mounted Cameras don't work for recording. They've been tried before and because of all the movements that we make with our heads, the resulting footage is too shaky and flighty. Police forces have tried them before. The way to get round this is with shoulder mounted cameras, as shoulders move less. So expect to read in a year that the trial of the technology has failed.

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    1. Re:"Eye" and "Head" mounted Cameras don't work by LunaticTippy · · Score: 1

      There are hundreds of thousands of helmet cam videos on youtube that are have passable video quality. Between faster sensors and image stabilization new cameras do quite well with a head mount.

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  78. Electronic Voting by ThatsNotPudding · · Score: 1

    This isn't much different that Electronic Voting: he who controls the database (files), controls the outcome (case). If this goes through, we will have to change the SLC area code to 404.

  79. actually not shocking by sribe · · Score: 1

    The lack of opposition, that is. Most police departments are mostly filled with officers who work hard to do the right thing every day. But they are not newsworthy, so it's the corrupt officers, and especially the departments built on (or tolerant of) a corrupted culture that fill the news. In a normal department, 99.9% of the time when there's any complaint against the officer, having video of the incident will be good for the officer.

    Now, just try getting this accepted in LA, or New Orleans, or Denver. Haha.

  80. I like my theocracies with a little less data by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You have to understand that Utah is a theocracy. As a resident I find it concerning that the police will become roving security cameras. I am sure the police will have their glasses on while rolling drunks in Park City, and they will love all the data they get so the unclean can be targeted. This is not a boon for public safety, this is manned drones scouring out cities looking for things to arrest people for after they have been caught on camera, analyized, and stored for other purposes. So I say, no thank you.

  81. well well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    it's a good thing, since we have seen here too many times, that cops have lied on what they did (they lied about being attacked, or said they just touched someone but on the video footage you could see that they kicked the person lying on ground into the head) etc...

  82. Re:And the obv trolling by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I agree, we should all wear glasses and record profanity, also dress codes must be adhered to at all times. If we want people to respect (not just police) we should be dressed in a way to generate such respect. No more PJ's at Starbucks, or provocative dress. A proper haircut is essential as well as not having any visible tattoos or piercings, and for god sakes take a shower. If the vehicle you drive deserves ridicule, so do you. We must drive only the approved vehicles....

    o i think thats enough for now

  83. Re:and who will be able to see what the cameras se by Muad'Dave · · Score: 1

    I don't think the public will or should ever be able to see all the recordings at will.

    I would go one step further - the police departments shouldn't be able to view the video routinely. That would allow them to cherry-pick which segments get 'lost' before a trial. I say that the glasses encrypt the video and only a court order gets it decrypted.

    I realize that having the police be able to review video at will could help apprehend suspects that appear on the video but get away. I would be ok with the video being available for instant review only if there's a way to guarantee that an encrypted, non-deletable, non-modifiable copy has been uploaded somewhere (perhaps uploaded via their patrol car). A flight of fancy I realize, but one can hope.

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  84. What's New by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Great ! Now the cops can get all of the action while they beat the crap out of YOU. This will not change the abusive nature of macho police officers.

  85. Re:and who will be able to see what the cameras se by swillden · · Score: 1

    It's not necessary to stop the police from viewing the video just to be sure they can't view it.

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  86. Re:and who will be able to see what the cameras se by swillden · · Score: 1

    Er, I meant "erase" or "lose" rather than the second "view". Sorry.

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  87. bull by shentino · · Score: 1

    The video will be in the custody of the government.

  88. What about free speech? by rmiesen · · Score: 1

    Another obvious thing would be that any insults by the arrestee recorded automatically results in a fine for each if brought to court. People need to respect the police if they expect the police to respect them, and step one is to talk politely and avoid profanity. A fine of $50 for each insult recorded would be reasonable and the fine must be paid in full within 14 days. No extension and no payment plan. This ensures that it will be felt and thus hopefully make people think before they insult.

    That would have a chilling effect on a person's freedom of speech. After all, if I want to (unwisely) give a police officer a recommendation as to what they can do to themselves, that is my prerogative and right, however unwise, rude, and foolish it may be to do so. Furthermore, who gets to decide what an "insult" is? Is it raising your hand in a certain way and asking them to "read between the lines" or is it asking them why they are asking to search you or your property?

  89. Re:and who will be able to see what the cameras se by Muad'Dave · · Score: 1

    If they can view it, they can choose to 'lose/destroy' the physical video if it does not help their side of the story. I'd rather both sides of a trial get the video sight-unseen without knowing if it'll help them or not.

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  90. Re:and who will be able to see what the cameras se by swillden · · Score: 1

    If they can view it, they can choose to 'lose/destroy' the physical video if it does not help their side of the story. I'd rather both sides of a trial get the video sight-unseen without knowing if it'll help them or not.

    Not necessarily. Depends on how the video is stored. I can think of many ways to make it accessible/viewable but make it impossible for them to modify or erase it.

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  91. Re:and who will be able to see what the cameras se by Muad'Dave · · Score: 1

    I addressed that in the original post. As long as there's a pristine copy of the video that can't be modified or hidden, then viewing immediately is fine. That's a really big if, of course. :-)

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  92. Re:and who will be able to see what the cameras se by swillden · · Score: 1

    Sorry, I got hung up on your "cannot be viewed" bit and didn't read the rest carefully enough. There's no need to encrypt it to make it non-modifiable and non-erasable, though. The easiest way to achieve "non-erasable" is probably just to require that storage be done by a third party who contracts to ensure that the data is never erased. Tamper resistance (or at least tamper evidence) is easily achieved with chained hashes. There may be some value in encryption for privacy, but that's a separate issue.

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  93. Re:and who will be able to see what the cameras se by Muad'Dave · · Score: 1

    The encryption I mention isn't to prevent modification, it is to make it unviewable until approved by court order (in the first case), make modification evident, as you said, as well as marking the source of the video with a cryptographically-secure tag. (This video was taken by camera S/N 12345, issued to officer yyy at date/time xxx, etc).

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  94. Is mayonnaise transparent? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just a little dab of mayo on the lens. After all this is SLC.

  95. Where does the data go? by Vrtigo1 · · Score: 1

    So police record their activities while serving warrants, patrolling, and investigating crime scenes. In other words, 80% of their day (they didn't say anything about wearing them at the donut shop). I don't know how many officers they have, but I'm guessing they probably have 100-150 on duty at any given point, and maybe 50 of those would be recording at a given time. So that's 50 video streams x 24 hours a day = 1200 hours of video a day. Let's say they recording at 240p because that's probably the lowest resolution that can be in any way useful, so that's about 3 MB per minute of video, 1200 hours of video a day means 72000 minutes of video a day and at 3 MB per minute, that's 211 GB of video a day. Assuming their retention period is at least 60 days (it's probably longer), that means they have to store almost 13 TB of video at an absolute minimum for the previous 30 days. That's a fair amount of data for a single police department, and if you think about retaining video for longer than 60 days it gets even larger. Some videos will probably be retained longer if they're related to an active case, or someone thinks they may be needed in the future. Then there's the issue of actually getting the video off of the glasses and on to some sort of centralized storage. It sounds like this is shaping up to be a job that justifies another FTE.