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The First Amendment and Software Speech

First time accepted submitter stanlrev writes "When is software, or content generated by software, 'speech' for First Amendment purposes? That is the question that Andrew Tutt seeks to answer in an article published today in the Stanford Law Review Online. He argues that the two approaches commentators and the Supreme Court have proposed are both incorrect. Software or software-generated content is not always speech simply because it conveys information. Nor is software only speech when it resembles traditional art forms. Instead, the courts should turn to the original purposes of the First Amendment to develop a new approach that answers this question more effectively."

194 comments

  1. It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by cjonslashdot · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I am not a Constitutional scholar (although I have read the Constitution and refer to it frequently), but I would presume that "freedom of expression" and "freedom of speech" are intended to ensure that ideas cannot be censored. And since the Constitution is about the rights of people and government, I also presume that the right pertains to people - not organizations. Organizations are not people, just as a pack of dogs is not a dog and a mob of people is not a person. And not machine generated content: such content is not necessarily the output of people, unless a person arranges for a _specific_ machine output in order to express an idea. If the 1st Amendment is truly about ensuring that ideas cannot be censored, then free speech is not about permitting anyone to say purposely offensive things (i.e., the form of their speech), but about their right to express (perhaps politely) the _ideas_ contained in their speech.

    1. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by Quila · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Organizations are not people, just as a pack of dogs is not a dog and a mob of people is not a person.

      However, an organization is made of people, and do they lose all of their rights as part of the organization? You and a bunch of friends don't like people killing kittens, and you use your full constitutional ights to fight the killing of kittens. To be more efficient, you decide to form an official organization to promote your cause and fight under its mantle. Now, because you did that, you lose your rights, making your efforts less effective?

      For machine generated content, I'll accept that when machines start having original ideas.

    2. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Understand GP's post and you may have a greater understanding of the differences between US and EU positions on free speach as commonly understood.

    3. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by YodasEvilTwin · · Score: 1

      So you're saying that no algorithm should be censored, only offensive implementations of such algorithms? Perhaps ones that are buggy? That sounds wonderful :D

    4. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by YodasEvilTwin · · Score: 1

      No having rights granted to a collective doesn't imply that the individuals lose their rights. The individuals are still individuals regardless of what they come together and do.

    5. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Was this post generated by a machine? Where it's not self-contradicting, it's incoherent.

    6. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You should read the Constituion some more. Congress can't legislate speech, not because of the first amendment but because that's not one of their enumerated powers. Whether software-generated speech is speech or not is irrelevant -- Congress doesn't have the authority to legislate it.

    7. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by DarkOx · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I agree with your argument but I would also add that because the Constitution also secures a right to assemble, its clear to me at least that an Organization is a first class entity just like an individual. The right of individuals to express themselves by forming an organization and acting as unit should be protected.

      --
      Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
    8. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by Hatta · · Score: 1

      then free speech is not about permitting anyone to say purposely offensive things

      "If you can't say Fuck you can't say, Fuck the government."
      Lenny Bruce

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    9. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by blahplusplus · · Score: 2

      "tended to ensure that ideas cannot be censored."

      We already have that with copyright law and intellectual property, the corporations have essentially defeated certain forms of culture from ever appearing (i.e. no public domain anymore). For instance one might ask why one cannot repair old software or why customers can't own games and get source-code for old (no longer sold) games for instance so fans/customers can fix up and pass them no to future generations. These things should be in a library after x many years. Things like the following:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhAR8rWPluQ

      Are increasingly impossible with "property" laws expanding into every domain it doesn't belong in all to protect someones profits.

    10. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by geekoid · · Score: 1

      " I'll accept that when machines start having original ideas."
      already happening. Emergent behavior, software that rights books and poems.

      If that isn't generating ideas, then you need to define 'idea' a lot better.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    11. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by cjonslashdot · · Score: 1

      Yes, is a dilemma. On the one hand, groups of people can do wonderful things. But they can also do awful things. Today the greatest threat to democracy is the power of special interest groups. These groups have agendas of their own, and they act in ways that their individual members might not. It is a real dilemma, and perhaps something that was not anticipated by the Constitution.

    12. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by geekoid · · Score: 2

      Incorrect:
      " If the 1st Amendment is truly about ensuring that ideas cannot be censored, then free speech is not about permitting anyone to say purposely offensive things "
      yes, it does.
      Many people find speech against them is offensive.
      Church's always find any speech that doesn't agree with them to be offensive.

      You should read the federalist papers, and other documents the founding fathers wrote. Also understand formal written speech of the time. It's enlightening and give the Constitution context.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    13. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      However, an organization is made of people...

      So is Soylent Green. Your point?

    14. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by cjonslashdot · · Score: 1

      No I am not saying that. I am merely musing about the intent of the 1st Amendment. I think it was about preventing censorship of people by government. If a machine generates something, that is not generated by a person, so it was not anticipated by the Constitution. But there might be a gray area: perhaps a person arranged for the machine to express the person's opinion. E.g., suppose it is a drone vehicle that flies around painting a political message in the sky. The drone is a machine, but the message was arranged by a person. Wouldn't this be "speech"? But if an AI algorithm generates speech, is that protected? I would think not, since today's AI machines are not people, and the Constitution is about people.

    15. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by cjonslashdot · · Score: 1

      Yes, our culture equate free speech with art and any form of expression. I am not sure that was the intent. But I don't know. To me, I would value the expression of an idea, such as "the government is corrupt" as much more important than the ability to express it in a rude way such as "fuck the government". But that is my personal value.

    16. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by IndustrialComplex · · Score: 2

      So how do you reconcile this eventual outcome:

      Corp A: newspaper
      Corp B: movie studio
      Corp C: social cause organization.

      Can the government censor Corp A? Can they censor Corp B? Can they censor Corp C?

      If the government can censor Corp C but not B, what if corp C produced a movie for their cause?

      In your attempt to exclude organizations from inheriting the rights of the people who make up those organizations, you end up granting the government the authority to censor individuals by granting authority over all potential communication mediums beyond simple person to person speech.

      The only way to get around that is to either grant very specific exemptions to government authority for certain types of corporations, that's a non starter because it would rely upon the government to define and regulate who falls into those corporations. In addition, it would default to a ban on speech for new communication methods until it was pre-approved for use.

      An example of this in practice now is the broadcast television market vs content unregulated markets (internet/subscription/etc). Broadcast television has to pull a lot of punches or content because it falls afoul of the FCC's guidance.

      Imagine now, that the FCC were not only regulating so-called vulgar content, but also tasked with evaluating political content! An organization would have to be very careful not to publish too much speech which could be considered 'organization' speech and not 'person speech'.

      Fortunately or unfortunately, we really can't declare organizations of people to not inherit the rights of the people who make up those organizations without vastly reevaluating that which forms the very foundation of our system of governance.

      --
      Out of modpoints but really liked a post? 1BDkF6TtmmeZ3yqXbz9yhdYVqRYnwFoXDj
    17. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by cjonslashdot · · Score: 1

      Indeed. The 1st Amendment protects us from government, but who protects us from powerful groups, such as companies, unions, etc.? We really need a supplemental "Bill Of Rights" to address organizations of people and how individuals are protected from those organizations. You are perceptive, that so-called intellectual property is the currency of power of the 21st century, and will be the primary instrument of oppression. We are seeing it take shape now. Small startups are hard pressed to create _any_ product that does not infringe on _some_ patent held by some large company with a patent portfolio.

    18. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by cjonslashdot · · Score: 1

      Yes, good points.

    19. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by dgatwood · · Score: 2

      To a point. Beyond a certain point, however, an organization of people can amass the ability to speak at sufficient volume (both in loudness and in quantity) to effectively drown out dissenting voices. Thus, in order to guarantee free speech for the individual, to some degree, the speech of large groups must be kept in check.

      This applies whether the large group is the government, a PAC, a corporation, a union, or pretty much any other group of people who have united for a single purpose. For example, the U.S. government is structured very deliberately to minimize tyranny of the majority.

      Similarly, commercial speech (e.g. advertising) has limits that require a degree of truthfulness. Commercial speech is not really different from any other speech, apart from the fact that the people doing the speaking have the presumption of authority and the volume to back up that presumption. We just have more laws to cover that corner case because it is fairly common and is often egregious. :-)

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    20. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by nschubach · · Score: 1

      But compiled code is machine generated. Minified code is machine generated as well. So the only code that could be protected free speech in your case would be source code and/or raw/interpreted code.

      --
      Every time I start to have faith in humanity, I ruin it by driving to work between 7 and 8 am.
    21. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by YodasEvilTwin · · Score: 1

      I was joking. I do appreciate the nuance here.

    22. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by cjonslashdot · · Score: 1

      Yes, I agree. I don't know the solution. I only know that there is a problem. Perhaps it comes down to holding accountable the individuals who make decisions within organizations. After all, every communication by an organization is initiated by an individual. The problem is that organizations have aggregated power, and they are single-minded in their mission, whereas individuals can weight social benefits versus personal benefits. Organizations tend to be amoral - even sociopathic - and are therefore not "good citizens". And even worse, organizations use money to amplify their influence far beyond the influence of individuals. I don't know the solution though.

    23. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by readin · · Score: 1

      I am not a Constitutional scholar (although I have read the Constitution and refer to it frequently), but I would presume that "freedom of expression" and "freedom of speech" are intended to ensure that ideas cannot be censored.

      I think the term "freedom of expression" is one of the big problems in figuring out how to apply the First Amendment to software. If we took the original text which said "freedom of speech" and "freedom of the press" we would see that it originally applied almost exclusively to words. When you speak, you speak words. When you print, you print words (ok, there were a few would cut pictures). The writers knew about things like music, paintings, sculptures and plays but did not choose to include them in the amendment. I think they're focus was on words and not on things like artwork (which they knew could be obscene).

      Applying such a word-based test to software would be pretty easy. You can use the software to communicate any words you like, but things like pictures, games, and music could be regulated. Now many, perhaps most, of us would be pretty unhappy with a lot of regulations but we could use our freedom of speech to discuss and organize and use our votes to let the legislature know that. Slashdot, for example, would be completely free because it is a purely word-based site.

      --
      I often don't like the choices people make, but I like the fact that people make choices. That's why I'm a conservative.
    24. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by Hatta · · Score: 2

      The problem is, the offensive part of most speech is the content, not the form. Is the statement that "non-violent marijuana users deserve to be sent to prison" really any less offensive than "fuck Obama"? I would argue that the former is absolutely more offensive by any rational criterion. In fact, there is nothing that could be censored that would offend me more than the act of censoring it.

      Censorship itself is offensive, and if you use offense to justify censorship you have to take that into account and prohibit censorship on the grounds that it is offensive.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    25. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by readin · · Score: 1

      I also presume that the right pertains to people - not organizations. Organizations are not people, just as a pack of dogs is not a dog and a mob of people is not a person.

      The First Amendment says (emphasis added):

      Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

      An organization is a peaceful assembly of people.

      --
      I often don't like the choices people make, but I like the fact that people make choices. That's why I'm a conservative.
    26. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by Obfuscant · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Thus, in order to guarantee free speech for the individual, to some degree, the speech of large groups must be kept in check.

      You're confusing the right of free speech with the right to be heard. The former is protected, the latter is not. E.g., you have the right to say something. You don't have the right to force me to hear you.

      In any case, this is a very dangerous road to start travelling on. Who decides when "a group" is "too large" to have First Amendment rights anymore? Is George Soros, with billions of dollars, "too large" and likely to have too loud a voice to have the right to use that voice? Citizen's United was apparently "too large" to have the right to free speech, even though they were a corporation formed explicitely for the purpose of making political speech and were trying to buy airtime in the face of a much larger organized political party.

      Commercial speech is not really different from any other speech,

      Yes, it is. Speech trying to sell you something (a product with a price) is much different than someone trying to convince you of an opinion. There is existing case law differentiating the two.

    27. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by cjonslashdot · · Score: 1

      Yes, you are right in a sense, in that the former violates a sense of fairness and rationality. It is offensive for that reason - the idea is offensive as you say - whereas the second is offensive because it is a pejorative. There is a difference. But then again, censorship of pejoratives would silence a great amount of valuable literature and art.

    28. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by readin · · Score: 1

      Regardless of whether you use foul language when expressing your idea, so long as you use words it should be ok. If you want to use the words "F--- the government" instead of "the government is corrupt" that's fine. However if you want to use a knife on a politician instead of saying "the government is corrupt" then we have a problem. If you want to stage a play where you have someone pretend to slash a throat then you're probably ok but when you start defending "art" you have trouble drawing the line. Is slashing a throat for real just a form of "performance art"? Why is f***ing for money illegal in most places in America unless you do it in front of a camera?

      It's must simpler just to protect the words.

      --
      I often don't like the choices people make, but I like the fact that people make choices. That's why I'm a conservative.
    29. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by cjonslashdot · · Score: 1

      Yes, I suspect it was about expression of ideas. Certainly ideas are the foundation of everything else, so protection of freedom to express ideas must be the core protection. Then again, ideas are often best expressed graphically....

    30. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by Obfuscant · · Score: 2

      It is a real dilemma, and perhaps something that was not anticipated by the Constitution.

      Obviously, prior to the Constitution, there never were such things as unions (guilds) made up of people with common ideas (trades) who might try to influence governments to do things that support them. There were no groups that any of the founders of the US were familiar of, despite the following from here:

      During the late 1700s it was one of the organizations most responsible for spreading the ideals of the Enlightenment: the dignity of man and the liberty of the individual, the right of all persons to worship as they choose, the formation of democratic governments, and the importance of public education. Masons supported the first public schools in both Europe and America.

      I think any argument that tries to claim that "special interest groups" weren't forseen by the founders who wrote the constitution is epic fail.

    31. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Organizations are not people

      Organizations are collectives of individuals. The individuals in those orgs have a right to free speech. Hence you cannot censor an organization because doing so would censor it's members.

      > And not machine generated content

      Some person made the machine generate that content. Censoring the machine would censor the machine's creator.

    32. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by Charliemopps · · Score: 1

      So far, the only thing on earth that can "Speak" is a person. Organizations are not only made up of people, but when they state things, someone had to write or speak that. Now you could argue that the individual speaker retains those rights, and the org does not... but the rights still exist. You can not, for example, prevent organizations from producing political adds. This was always unconstitutional... and it just took a long time for the court to finally address it. Does this right create huge problems? Definitely! Citizens united is a total pain in the ass, but they were correct. The solution to this problem eludes me, but stifling the speech of a few is not the answer.

    33. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by cjonslashdot · · Score: 1

      Sex for money should not be illegal. It is an overreach of local government in my opinion. It is between two consenting adults. The government has no legitimate business in it, just as the government has no legitimate business telling someone they cannot use drugs. Should Keith Richards have been prevented from using drugs? Perhaps then he would not have written such great music. It is his choice. I don't choose it myself, but who am I to say that someone else should not choose it? As long as they don't hurt anyone or drive while under the influence.

    34. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by Quila · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Today the greatest threat to democracy is the power of special interest groups. These groups have agendas of their own, and they act in ways that their individual members might not

      Like unions! They oppose laws that restrict their ability to use their members' money to influence elections even when the beliefs of the union are opposite the beliefs of the member. Unfortunately, for many people quitting the union is not a realistic option due to various laws (no right to work) and circumstances. Members of the NRA or Greenpeace can just opt to not renew. Shareholders in corporations can sell their shares. But union members are mostly screwed.

    35. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by Bob+the+Super+Hamste · · Score: 1

      software that rights books and poems

      Apparently it should have been used to write that comment.

      --
      Time to offend someone
    36. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by cjonslashdot · · Score: 1

      You are right, there were groups. But today those groups have become extremely powerful. Communication is much more effective today and large groups use it much more effectively than ever before. Manipulation of people has become a science.

    37. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by Quila · · Score: 1

      I'm thinking genuine original creative ideas vs. an algorithm that just combines words according to preset rules. I don't think we're quite there yet.

    38. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by Quila · · Score: 2

      Under the "organizaitons have no rights" idea, I and my friends can individually spend our money to buy ad time to promote the cause, and we would have the right to do it as individuals. But if we pool our money to buy an ad, we would lose all rights to air it.

    39. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by JesseMcDonald · · Score: 1

      I think they're focus was on words and not on things like artwork (which they knew could be obscene).

      Are you implying that they didn't know that words can be just as "obscene" as artwork?

      Also, people may speak exclusively in words, but a printing press can just as easily print graphics as words. You mentioned the possibility of woodcut illustrations yourself. Freedom of the press must naturally extend to printed images as well as printed words. Recorded audio had yet to be invented, of course, but lyrics and printed sheet music would have been covered, as would the scripts for plays. Sculptures were omitted, true, but that seems more like an oversight than deliberate intent.

      Finally, it would not be sufficient to show only that the 1st Amendment only covers words; you would also need to point out where in the Constitution any branch of the U.S. government is granted the power to censor images, music, plays, sculptures, or the formal descriptions of algorithms colloquially known as software.

      --
      "The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else." - Bastiat
    40. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by readin · · Score: 1

      Sex for money should not be illegal. It is an overreach of local government in my opinion. It is between two consenting adults.

      That's a reasonable position to take, but should it be constitutionally protected? Is it in the same class of rights as the right to free speech, a fair trial, freedom of religion and the right to vote? Is the viability of a constitutional republic in danger if it is outlawed?

      The libertarian philosophy is wonderful and I generally agree with it (though for practical reasons I don't always agree with it). However I think the libertarianism needs to be a cultural value that is then reflected in the laws made by the legislature. So if you want libertarian laws, you first need to persuade the voters (and we've been doing a pretty crappy job of that for many years). The constitutional protections should mostly be limited to those necessary for making sure we have the freedom to make the arguments that change the culture, and the freedom to then change the government to reflect the culture.

      --
      I often don't like the choices people make, but I like the fact that people make choices. That's why I'm a conservative.
    41. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      "What good is a phone call, if you are unable to speak?"

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    42. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by Em+Adespoton · · Score: 1

      I agree with your argument but I would also add that because the Constitution also secures a right to assemble, its clear to me at least that an Organization is a first class entity just like an individual. The right of individuals to express themselves by forming an organization and acting as unit should be protected.

      Does this mean that I have the right to assemble any source code I come across? Would that be free speech? :)

    43. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by Hatta · · Score: 1

      the second is offensive because it is a pejorative

      Which is only offensive if you choose to view it as such. What's the difference between "Fuck Obama" and "Obama is a bad, evil man"? The sentiment is the same, just the word choice is different. So why is the first word unacceptable? Because your mommy told you it was bad? Is that all?

      "bad words" aren't bad. It's the people who believe that "bad words" exist who are bad people. We have much more important things to deal with than word choice. Quit being a distraction.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    44. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 2

      Sex for money should be legal, and regulated. Making it illegal doesn't do anyone any good, because it still happens in sufficient amounts of places that the law itself is non-effect. If prostitution were legal, then we would be able to license workers, require them to carry sufficient health and liability insurance, keep proper records of clients that the negative effects (if any) are mitigated significantly. At this point, government cannot mitigate anything, except by "crackdown".

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    45. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      already happening. Emergent behavior, software that rights books and poems.

      Looks like that software still needs some work in the homonym module.

    46. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...and, of course, the homophone module as well.

    47. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by JackieBrown · · Score: 2

      No having rights granted to a collective doesn't imply that the individuals lose their rights. The individuals are still individuals regardless of what they come together and do.

      So unions should not have rights?

    48. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by westlake · · Score: 1

      And since the Constitution is about the rights of people and government, I also presume that the right pertains to people - not organizations. Organizations are not people, just as a pack of dogs is not a dog

      "The cheese stands alone."

      People organize because they are sociable. They organize because they have needs and values in common. They organize because there is strength in numbers. They organize because they neded able and effective advocates.

      Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Association are profoundly connected.

    49. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      You are right, there were groups. But today those groups have become extremely powerful.

      You don't think that Masonry, which claimed Geo. Washington, Ben Franklin, and many other founders, as members, much less as targets to be influenced, wasn't extremely powerful? Or any of the trades or social "guilds" of the time? You're talking about a time when, if you pissed of a trade guild in the city where you lived, you couldn't just get on the web and order what they were't going to provide for you from the next state or country over.

      You don't know about them like you know about the unions today, but don't be fooled into thinking that their invisibility to you today made them meaningless yesterday.

      Communication is much more effective today

      Special interest group power comes not from being able to broadcast their message, but from being able to monocast it to the ones who have the real power. This has not changed.

      Manipulation of people has become a science.

      Now say something that argues for the repeal of basic constitutional rights for people.

    50. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by ireallyhateslashdot · · Score: 1

      You're confusing the right of free speech with the right to be heard. The former is protected, the latter is not. E.g., you have the right to say something. You don't have the right to force me to hear you.

      But someone a large enough organization (or someone with enough money; remember, the Supreme Court says that money is speech) can force you to listen to them, by drowning out all the other voices. Thus, under your interpretation, organizations (and the rich) have the right to have their voices heard, to the exclusion of others.

    51. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by Obfuscant · · Score: 2

      "What good is a phone call, if you are unable to speak?"

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecommunications_device_for_the_deaf

      http://www.access-board.gov/telecomm/rule.htm

      While the common use of TDD is for deaf, they usually have a speechless mode of data entry that a mute person could use.

      Since we're talking about removing rights of free speech from people who have joined a corporation, you're question is actually relevant, but I suspect you were trying to claim that the "right to be heard" is somehow involved in not being able to speak at all. You're right, silencing people is bad, but forcing others to listen to everything someone has a right to say is, if not worse, as bad.

      Imagine the laws: "you will watch TV tonight at 7PM so you can hear the free speech from the following individuals. Your viewing will be monitored and you will have to answer a quiz to test your comprehension." The "right to be heard" is not implied in the right to free speech, as much as some people would like it to be.

    52. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by sjames · · Score: 1

      Of course not. Any individual within the organization can use their own free speech rights to say whatever needs saying.

    53. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by JesseMcDonald · · Score: 1

      An organization is a peaceful assembly of people.

      Yes, and people have the right to assemble peaceably into organizations. That doesn't mean that the organization has rights. The people making up the organization have rights, which they can exercise on behalf of the organization.

      (Of course, the same principle says that a government, as one form of organization, does not have rights per se; only the members of the government have rights, as individuals. A person acting on behalf of a government thus has no special right to act in ways which have not been explicitly delegated to that government by someone who does have the right. Good luck getting them to agree to that.)

      --
      "The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else." - Bastiat
    54. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by sjames · · Score: 2

      There is no need for the organization to become it's own legal entity. The individuals assemble as is their right. They arrive at a consensus and then an individual uses his/her own free speech rights to make a statement on the group's behalf.

    55. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "And since the Constitution is about the rights of people and government ..."

      Disagree.

      People have rights (and responsibilities - chiefly, to see others' rights respected) ... ... But governments have only responsibilities - no rights.

    56. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by readin · · Score: 1

      I think they're focus was on words and not on things like artwork (which they knew could be obscene).

      Are you implying that they didn't know that words can be just as "obscene" as artwork?

      Also, people may speak exclusively in words, but a printing press can just as easily print graphics as words. You mentioned the possibility of woodcut illustrations yourself. Freedom of the press must naturally extend to printed images as well as printed words. Recorded audio had yet to be invented, of course, but lyrics and printed sheet music would have been covered, as would the scripts for plays. Sculptures were omitted, true, but that seems more like an oversight than deliberate intent.

      Finally, it would not be sufficient to show only that the 1st Amendment only covers words; you would also need to point out where in the Constitution any branch of the U.S. government is granted the power to censor images, music, plays, sculptures, or the formal descriptions of algorithms colloquially known as software.

      In terms of federalism I agree with you. If anyone is going to be censoring the software artwork it should be the states rather than the federal government.

      As for recorded audio, sheet music and scripts for plays - I think the words are covered by the first amendment. So the lyrics and the script could not be censored. You can make a very good argument that the sheet music also should not be censored (they are instructions for playing the music, not the music itself). But in this interpretation of the first amendment the performance of music and plays would not be covered. Recordings of people reading the script or music would of course be covered. But the state would be able to restrict performance of certain tunes or certain musical instruments. And the state would be able to restrict doing certain actions as part of a play. But the restrictions couldn't be based on the words or lyrics.

      Of course in practice very little would be prohibited because voters wouldn't put up with it.

      --
      I often don't like the choices people make, but I like the fact that people make choices. That's why I'm a conservative.
    57. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by readin · · Score: 1

      I think they're focus was on words and not on things like artwork (which they knew could be obscene).

      Are you implying that they didn't know that words can be just as "obscene" as artwork?

      Also, people may speak exclusively in words, but a printing press can just as easily print graphics as words. You mentioned the possibility of woodcut illustrations yourself. Freedom of the press must naturally extend to printed images as well as printed words. Recorded audio had yet to be invented, of course, but lyrics and printed sheet music would have been covered, as would the scripts for plays. Sculptures were omitted, true, but that seems more like an oversight than deliberate intent.

      Finally, it would not be sufficient to show only that the 1st Amendment only covers words; you would also need to point out where in the Constitution any branch of the U.S. government is granted the power to censor images, music, plays, sculptures, or the formal descriptions of algorithms colloquially known as software.

      In terms of federalism I agree with you. If anyone is going to be censoring the software artwork it should be the states rather than the federal government. As for recorded audio, sheet music and scripts for plays - I think the words are covered by the first amendment. So the lyrics and the script could not be censored. You can make a very good argument that the sheet music also should not be censored (they are instructions for playing the music, not the music itself). But in this interpretation of the first amendment the performance of music and plays would not be covered. Recordings of people reading the script or music would of course be covered. But the state would be able to restrict performance of certain tunes or certain musical instruments. And the state would be able to restrict doing certain actions as part of a play. But the restrictions couldn't be based on the words or lyrics. Of course in practice very little would be prohibited because voters wouldn't put up with it.

      And no, I don't believe words can be just as obscene as artwork.

      --
      I often don't like the choices people make, but I like the fact that people make choices. That's why I'm a conservative.
    58. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      But someone a large enough organization (or someone with enough money; remember, the Supreme Court says that money is speech) can force you to listen to them, by drowning out all the other voices.

      My TV and radio both have an "off" knob. Who can force me not to use it? I use it on a regular basis when there are programs that I find offensive, for example. I was able to use it quite well when Air America still had a local station. Right next to it was the tuning knob which allowed me to avoid using the 'off' knob.

      Thus, under your interpretation, organizations (and the rich) have the right to have their voices heard, to the exclusion of others.

      That's your interpretation of something I didn't say.

    59. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by virgnarus · · Score: 1

      Client: Hey babe, how about it?

      Prostitute: Oooooo, sure thing, darling! But fiiiiiiiiiiiiiirst, I'll need you to sign this consent form and will need you to fill out your health insurance information on these following papers. I'll also need you fill out this form and sign it, which states I'm permitted to view your medical records. Here's a pen and a clipboard, now go have a seat and after you're done and return them I'll get right with you as soon as I can verify the information.

    60. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      that's a whole lot of writing about nothing there, roman_mir. although that doesn't really surprise anyone since that is about how much you know about american politics, american history, and american government. you really should try talking about something other than just your favorite ron paul talking points if you want to get your karma back.

      or will you instead just extend your free-market hypocrisy and open another sock puppet account?

    61. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by Hatta · · Score: 1

      It should be protected, but it doesn't have to be facilitated. You retain 100% of your natural rights to free speech and assembly even if the government never acknowledges incorporation. Therefore, regulation of corporations can never infringe on your natural rights. This is the fundamental flaw with the Citizens United ruling.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    62. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But organizations are people now, or can legally be considered a person, as of last year, corporations are individuals or have individual rights... someone help me out here to explain the decision...but I agree, how does code or an image transmitted through code carry protection of moral property, that is ultimately the question that many of us need to start asking..clarifying, for many purposes..

    63. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You jest, however if prostitution was legal there is a good possibility that most of the activity would happen in organized places (brothels is one name). This happens in other countries like Spain where you could have a reception desk (like a hotel) where one would register and pay. This could take care of registration.

      Consent forms; Well maybe this would be necessary in the US with its litigateive (sp?) environment.

    64. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by ireallyhateslashdot · · Score: 1

      My TV and radio both have an "off" knob. Who can force me not to use it? I use it on a regular basis when there are programs that I find offensive, for example. I was able to use it quite well when Air America still had a local station. Right next to it was the tuning knob which allowed me to avoid using the 'off' knob.

      You're right, I can just turn off my T.V. and my radio, and stop reading miscellaneous websites, and not be informed. I'm not sure that ignorance is a good solution to this problem.

      Why should some members or sections of our society have the ability to drown out the voices of others? That comes as part and parcel of your "people don't have the right to be heard" argument.

    65. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by geekoid · · Score: 1

      *facepalm*

      Sigh

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    66. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by geekoid · · Score: 1

      "thinking genuine original creative"
      You mean like no human has ever done?

      " an algorithm that just combines words according to preset rules."
      you mean like the human brain?

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    67. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by Holladon · · Score: 1

      But someone a large enough organization (or someone with enough money; remember, the Supreme Court says that money is speech) can force you to listen to them, by drowning out all the other voices.

      My TV and radio both have an "off" knob. Who can force me not to use it?

      By that reasoning, noise ordinances are inherently suspect under the First Amendment, because you could easily stick your fingers in your ears or use earplugs. If analysis of the efficacy of our laws boils down to nothing more than spouting hypothetical solutions that sidestep the realities of everyday life, then we've failed to meaningfully engage the question. Anyone who thinks "the law," and that includes the First Amendment, is simplistic enough that we can apply it like we would a mathematical formula, doesn't deserve to have his or her opinion taken seriously. The First Amendment is and ought to be more thoughtfully complex than you're giving it credit for.

      Thus, under your interpretation, organizations (and the rich) have the right to have their voices heard, to the exclusion of others.

      That's your interpretation of something I didn't say.

      The other commenter's point was that it's a reasonably foreseeable consequence of your argument. You don't have to literally say words for their intended or necessary meaning to nonetheless be clear.

    68. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by bbecker23 · · Score: 1

      Only the rights granted to it as a union. That's what keeps getting lost in the "corporations are people" vitriol. Corporations (and unions) have always had certain rights normally reserved for people. Signing contracts, financial identity, ability to be sued. The issue at hand is what those granted rights should be. Though granting unions only those rights held by corporations (whatever those may be) is something most of us can likely agree on. Nice try, though.

      --
      cat /dev/random > sig.txt
    69. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by geekoid · · Score: 1

      haha. How..cute.

      EITC influenced the world through government 'lobbying'.
      Corporation used massive monopolies to dictate culture.
      Churches control governments to enforce church approved rules.

      The founding father new the perfectly well. Its one reason the was a debate on whether or not corporation should be allowed.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    70. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by bws111 · · Score: 2

      What you're complaining about is not lack of freedom, it is lack of fairness. As soon as fairness comes into the picture, freedom leaves (as ensuring fairness requires restricting freedom).

    71. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by Holladon · · Score: 2

      I'm thinking genuine original creative ideas vs. an algorithm that just combines words according to preset rules. I don't think we're quite there yet.

      What's the difference between that and poetry that adheres to existing rules? Is a high school student's perfectly-metered, rhymed poem any less deserving of First Amendment protection than a seasoned poet's taking of creative license, just because the merit of the high school student's poem was purely technical? In fact, language itself is just a set of rules. Creative expression occurs within those rules -- sometimes the creativity comes in breaking them, yes (although even then, you can only break so many before your expression totally loses coherence and, with it, artistic value -- even rebellious art exists in reaction to, and therefore in a sense in conformance with, rules), but more often it comes in using them in a way that is deemed by some collective subset of people to be sufficiently unique as to be "creative" or "high art" or whatever. But it's still just people following the rules in different ways. We only think computers are different because we don't view what computers do as "thought," because we created them and therefore they are "artificial" (although can you tell me why it is that any computer language even WORKS in the first place?) -- but, of course, even the most decorated and accomplished neurophysicist in the world couldn't tell you with absolute certainty what "thought" even **IS**.

    72. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by BeanThere · · Score: 1

      organizations have aggregated power, and they are single-minded in their mission

      Wow - you've never really been a shareholder or member of any real organization, have you? You'd know that the moment you have more than one person, you already start having disagreements. Trying to get large organizations to *appear* like-minded (to give the false illusion of being like-minded) is one of the most monstrous challenges in being a part of the management/ownership of such organizations.

      Organizations tend to be amoral - even sociopathic

      This doesn't really make sense. I mean let's think about it, what can an organization do that is "sociopathic"? Can an organization commit murder? No, only individuals within an organization can decide to commit murder.

      And even worse, organizations use money

      You really just can't stop anthropomorphizing organizations ... organizations can't "use" money, only individuals belonging to (or owning) an organization can "use" money.

      I don't know the solution though.

      The solution is to place the restrictions where they actually belong - i.e. limitations on the ability to use actual power to actually violate rights. "Organizations" cannot violate rights because members of ordinary organizations like corporations have to follow the same laws as everyone else (e.g. if Larry Ellison committed murder he would be prosecuted and go to jail, just like you or me). But what you are referring to, let's be open about it, is using financial clout to purchase politicians, and then using those purchased politicians to use real power (that government actually has - e.g. government really has given itself the right to murder or steal) for private benefit at the expense of others. The "solution" is that politicians who do this should be prosecuted and sent to jail - i.e. you punish moral violations where they actually happen. It doesn't help to, in some confused state, try get free speech restricted, but leave in place a system where governments can still steal or murder with impunity.

    73. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're right, I can just turn off my T.V. and my radio, and stop reading miscellaneous websites, and not be informed. I'm not sure that ignorance is a good solution to this problem.

      Those aren't your only alternatives, as you well know. You can tune to another station whose message you prefer, or whose objectivity you appreciate. You can pool your efforts and money with other citizens and put YOUR speech and beliefs and ideas on the air to provide a counterpoint to the speech you don't like. You can write, blog, make videos, write songs, talk, protest - all of these things are not impacted AT ALL by somebody else having the ability to speak as well.

      The problem here seems to be that people want "equal time" for their ideas, but also that "my ideas are more equal than others, and nobody should ever be allowed to challenge them." People seem to want their right to speak, but don't want to exert any effort to debate against the ideas that are different from theirs. If people you disagree with are speaking up, it is your responsibility to argue against their views, not silence them.

    74. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by Holladon · · Score: 1

      "bad words" aren't bad. It's the people who believe that "bad words" exist who are bad people.

      That's a bit extreme, don't you think? That someone disagrees with you doesn't qualify that person as a "bad person." I happen to share your point of view that delicate sensibilities are usually too easy an excuse for silencing otherwise valuable content (or even valueless content whose existence hides a slippery slope), but someone who disagrees isn't magically Hitler for disagreeing. Not to mention, there's certainly a fair argument to be made that the manner of expression **can** be relevant, particularly when we're talking about making value determinations. It's one thing to say offensive speech should never be censored under any circumstances (I think I agree, although I tend to shy away from absolutes as a general rule); it's quite another to suggest, implicitly, that offensive speech and equivalent speech expressed differently have equal *value*. This can matter when we're talking not about whether to censor, but whether to promote/favor, which is a pretty important question with First Amendment implications in and of itself (but it gets a lot less airtime than "censorship," which is as easy an abstract cause to rally against as Naziism).

    75. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      The organization doesn't get an additional voice. The people of the organization are *never* silenced, just them getting a second voice when speaking on behalf of the organization.

    76. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      When you form a formal legal organization to do it, you have additional rules that apply that can affect your right to buy advertising, which don't impair your ability to form an non-organization where 9 people "give" their money to one person, and that one person buys advertising, so long as it isn't construed as a de facto group that is acting in that manner to deliberately avoid other rules.

    77. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by cjonslashdot · · Score: 1

      You wrote, "Its one reason the was a debate on whether or not corporation should be allowed."

      Really? That's fascinating. I did not know that. Can you point to a reference to this? Is it in some of the Federalist Papers?

    78. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by AK+Marc · · Score: 2

      Unions are the GPL of organizations. If corporations didn't have special rights, unions would not need to use those same rules to form a counter-group.

    79. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Isn't it a federal crime to take down you mailbox? You can't avoid getting the mail, so they can always reach you.

    80. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by cjonslashdot · · Score: 1

      BeanThere wrote, "Wow - you've never really been a shareholder or member of any real organization, have you? You'd know that the moment you have more than one person, you already start having disagreements."

      I have. I was on the board of the company that I founded some years back. But I understand your point. You are right that shareholders debate and don't agree on the mission. But my point was that it is not one person one vote. The more stock you have, the more votes you have. Thus, a corporation is dominated by the largest shareholders, with a single-minded mission to make money. Corporations take on a life of their own in that they have a strong tendency to act in any way available to further their goals, irrespective of considerations for the greater good or anyone else. Just as a mob has "mob behavior", a corporation (or a union or non-profit) has emergent behavior.

    81. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Oh, are you one of the "no free will" believers? The human brain is different because it doesn't write based on "preset rules". The human brain makes up the rules as you go. Sure, 100 people may develop the exact same rules based on the same input, but that doesn't mean the rules themselves are "preset".

    82. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by cjonslashdot · · Score: 1

      BeanThere wrote, "But what you are referring to, let's be open about it, is using financial clout to purchase politicians."

      Yes, that is the central problem with our system. The role of money in elections. It is too easy to influence politicians. Before every election they have $1000 plate dinners and one by one contributors tell the candidates what they want in return for their donation. It is a horrible system. Elections should be about votes, not about donations. Volunteers should go door to door, rather than all the campaign advertising in the media. There really needs to be a way to stop the advertising but I don't know a way, especially since the Supreme Court equated paid advertising by an organization as "free speech". (That case was a couple of decades back.)

    83. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      I don't see any problem with that. If a compiled machine code executable is not "speech", what problem does that cause? You could share the source instead. Or, as in the drone example, if the program prints "hello world", then the program is protected, just as the drone in the example you are replying to. But a program itself isn't speech, anymore than my car is speech.

    84. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What's going to happen when a truly realistic artificial intelligence program is made, and it tells human interviewers that obviously white people have the right to have their own countries, and that mass immigration is genocide of white people?

      I agree that freedom of speech is intended to ensure that IDEAS cannot be censored - but try saying anything that the JEW hasn't told the public to think, and you'll be lambasted all over the internet. You can't join a forum without having to agree that you WON'T speak out against the genocide of white people - sorry - 'won't say anything 'racist' ', etc. In other words, the filthy Jews control the discourse, which means we are ALL their slaves.

      I am constantly astounded at how incredibly stupid MOST people are - they would literally rather die, than think for themselves, and will do anything to silence what they consider to be 'dissent' from the party line they've been fed by the Jew owned media all their lives. Such as the lie of the 'holocaust'. Watch 'The last days of the big lie' and get back to me. Probably better not, you might have to THINK and QUESTION the rubbish you've been told by your Jewish 'masters'.

      Still, the Jews are doing their best to start World War III in Palestine, I wonder if any of you morons will wake up when you're sent off to fight the war to save the filthy Jews' sorry asses? Just like your ancestors did in the Second World War - killing your own brothers, to make sure the filthy Jews keep their banking system in place.

    85. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, it's not, provided you own the mailbox (e.g., if it came with the apartment you rented). You can take down your mailbox, you can refuse to have a mailbox, and you can refuse to answer the door when the mailman comes - none of these has any legal penalty whatsoever.

      It is a crime to damage or destroy someone *else's* mailbox, or tamper with it or put something in it, if you're not a mail carrier. But if you own the mailbox, then you can do whatever you like with it. The postman will generally try to come to the door to deliver in person, or put a notification that your mail is being held at the post office on your door; if you fail to retrieve it at some point, or provide a forwarding address, they *will* begin returning the mail as undeliverable after a time.

      If you want to go off the grid, it's pretty easy to do. But you won't receive ANY mail, which includes jury summons, legal documents, and other important stuff that may come through the mail service - and you will be liable for failure to appear/pay/etc, you can't blame the postal service. As long as you're okay with those consequences, you can do whatever you like with a mailbox you own.

    86. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      That and it seems to miss the point. Yes, one of the reasons speech is protected is to speak against the government, but the "modern" interpretation is that speech+press = expression. The freedom of expression is not related to his ownership claims. So maybe one of the reasons he doesn't have good karma is that not only are his rants redundant rehashes, but in this case, also off topic, but he say something tangentially related to his pet topic, so spew he did.

    87. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      But organizations are people now, or can legally be considered a person, as of last year, corporations are individuals or have individual rights

      Great, so as a person, BP, a convicted criminal that killed 11 people can finally be put behind bars. One man kills 11 and he's an insane sreial killer that should be put to death. A corporation does it and they get a small fine.

    88. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Semantic twaddle.

      Government has powers explicitly reserved for them in the constitution. Social contract theory suggests that government is the sole agent in a society which has the "right" to use force (arrest & incarceration).

      The government has a highly limited set of rights, but it does have rights, in the form of things that it is "allowed" or "mandated" to do.

    89. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by bedmison · · Score: 1

      To a point. Beyond a certain point, however, an organization of people can amass the ability to speak at sufficient volume (both in loudness and in quantity) to effectively drown out dissenting voices. Thus, in order to guarantee free speech for the individual, to some degree, the speech of large groups must be kept in check.

      Similarly, commercial speech (e.g. advertising) has limits that require a degree of truthfulness.

      Clearly you weren't paying a lot of attention to the ads associated with the presidential campaign that just concluded in the US. The Supreme Court was pretty clear in Citizens United opinion (Google it) that an organization's right to free speech/expression cannot be limited by government in the form of limits placed on donor contributions, or how those contributions are used. This case essentially gives any non-corporeal legal entity the protected right to say whatever the hell it wants.

    90. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by JesseMcDonald · · Score: 1

      And no, I don't believe words can be just as obscene as artwork.

      What you believe is your business, but...

      obscene
      1. (of the portrayal or description of sexual matters) Offensive or disgusting by accepted standards of morality and decency.
      2. Offensive to moral principles; repugnant.

      What part of that can apply to artwork but not words? A picture may be harder to ignore, if you have a particularly dull imagination, but words can easily convey the same idea, and it's generally the idea which is offensive or disgusting, not the means of presentation. Why should a painting be considered more obscene than a series of words which evoke the same mental image?

      --
      "The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else." - Bastiat
    91. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In any case, this is a very dangerous road to start travelling on. Who decides when "a group" is "too large" to have First Amendment rights anymore? Is George Soros, with billions of dollars, "too large" and likely to have too loud a voice to have the right to use that voice? Citizen's United was apparently "too large" to have the right to free speech, even though they were a corporation formed explicitely for the purpose of making political speech and were trying to buy airtime in the face of a much larger organized political party.

      Good point, but there still needs to be a distinction from speech by individuals from speech by groups. My first thought is the threshold for permissible errors needs to be much lower for groups. Due to the number of people the data past through, in 1994 certain tobacco company executives were able to "truthfully" testify before Congress that tobacco was not addictive. Every layer increased the level of doubt and by the time it was at the executive level there wasn't any evidence. Then there is the issue of large entities being able to spend massive amounts of money to drown out the message of people. While it is reasonable to handle corporations as being similar to people most of the time, they are not people.

    92. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      You're right, I can just turn off my T.V. and my radio, and stop reading miscellaneous websites, and not be informed. I'm not sure that ignorance is a good solution to this problem.

      But you're saying that your TV and radio have been taken over by one voice who is trying, we assume, to misinform you. You're complaining now that you have a choice in turning off misinformation. So, if you're claiming that having to turn you TV off means you will be uninformed, that means there is still information being conveyed. Where's this "drowning out" effect that you're assuming has happened? Clearly it hasn't.

      Why should some members or sections of our society have the ability to drown out the voices of others?

      You're assuming they have that ability. That's not a fact that is in evidence. You don't like what some people say, so you think they're being too loud about saying it. That's different than them drowning anyone else out.

      And given the web, it is impossible for anyone to drown anyone else out. A million websites on the web all saying the same thing do not hinder your ability to read the one website that says things you agree with.

      But then I'll turn the question around. Why do you think some people's right to free speech is more important than others? Who picks who wins? Is there a limit in the constitution on "if X number of people want to say the same thing, they no longer have the right to say it"?

      That comes as part and parcel of your "people don't have the right to be heard" argument.

      That's not what I said. The argument is that nobody can FORCE anyone else to listen. You can't force anyone to listen to those people you want them to listen to, nor can the billionaire George Soros force anyone to listen to him. There is no right in the constitution that says that anyone has to hear what you say. They can use their "off" knob at their discretion. Any attempts at removing that discretion is more dangerous than free speech itself.

    93. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by readin · · Score: 1

      To me there are two important distinctions you have missed (you already mentioned that some obscenities can be harder to ignore than others). The first is that for some forms of art, the act of creating the art is obscene. The second distinction is that words come at you more slowly. When they start to portray an obscene image you can simply stop reading or, if it is someone talking, you can leave. If you are trying to decide whether to read something that might be obscene, you read a bit, perhaps skim, and get a good idea of whether you want to read the details. For a picture or a movie, once the obscenity starts, whether it be violence or something else, you've already seen it. You can't go back and change your mind. You don't know it's coming.

      --
      I often don't like the choices people make, but I like the fact that people make choices. That's why I'm a conservative.
    94. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      I remember when I was doing house rennovations and was told that it was an issue if my mailbox wasn't mounted at the right height and of the same type as my neighbors (I grew up where they were on the house, a box or door-slit, and moved to a place where they were on the road, and we "weren't allowed" to change the location unless everyone in the delivery area changed at the same time). We had to arrange a hold at the local PO for the time the work was being done.

    95. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      By that reasoning, noise ordinances are inherently suspect under the First Amendment, because you could easily stick your fingers in your ears or use earplugs.

      Your reasoning is incorrect. There is no reason I should have to take affirmative action in my own dwelling to avoid hearing you. And it isn't always as simple as "you could easily". So no, wrong conclusion. In fact, by supporting noise ordinances, you are supporting my statement that there is no right to force others to listen. You can stand on the sidewalk and speak in a normal tone of voice all day without being arrested. As soon as you try to force your speech into my house by shouting or amplification, you're breaking the law.

      The First Amendment is and ought to be more thoughtfully complex than you're giving it credit for.

      No. Consitutional rights should by their nature if inherency be simple and straightforward. Given no compelling and urgent reason to the contrary, people have the right to free speech. Period, end of sentence. Trying to add shades and nuances and myriads of conditions based on thoughtful consideration creates unfairness, complexity, and preferential treatment. It destroys the concept that the first amendment is most needed to protect the speech that is least preferred.

      Oh, but you might be able to afford to buy more speech than someone else. That's not fair. Well, ok, but so what? Some people can afford to buy more things than others. I'm pretty sure that the framers of the Constitution were well aware of the differing abilities of people in their day to afford the means of exercising their rights to free speech. They didn't include any "too much" clauses in the first amendment, so it would seem that none was intended. And none is needed, especially today. Perhaps this medium above all others should demonstrate that.

      If the framers really had wanted to deal with "too much" with respect to free speech rights, then why are there no laws that say a newspaper has to print letters to the editor that disagree with the editorials? The editors have an open soapbox that reaches potentially tens or hundreds of thousands of people every day, and yet they are under no legal requirement to print contradictory opinions. They do so because it sells papers, but the laws of economics aren't the same as the laws of the constitution.

      Now, there used to be a "fairness doctrine" involving broadcast media, which was based on the idea that there was a limited amount of broadcast space and time, and that broadcasters had some implied duty to be fair to everyone with an opinion. The huge expansion of media has made that limited space concept obsolete, and forcing broadcasters to give away airtime to anyone who wants to contradict someone else is now passe.

      The other commenter's point was that it's a reasonably foreseeable consequence of your argument.

      No. The part that makes the interpretation patently wrong is the bit about "to the exclusion of others." And the part that implies by exclusion that only the rich have the right to have their voices heard is wrong, as well. My arguments say nothing of the kind. In fact, as we know, there is no way they can force anyone to hear their voices, and there is plenty of webspace for opinions of all shapes and kinds.

    96. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by KingAlanI · · Score: 1

      That sounds like it might be homeowner's association rules or other petty bullshit, rather than postal regulations.

      --
      I listen to both RIAA and non-RIAA stuff if I like the music, tangential business/politics nonwithstanding.
    97. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by JesseMcDonald · · Score: 1

      To me there are two important distinctions you have missed.... The first is that for some forms of art, the act of creating the art is obscene.

      Under the second definition, sure. Depending on the person, any act, expression, or even thought might be "offensive to moral principles" or "repugnant". That's even more subjective than "accepted standards of morality and decency", which itself is hardly an objective classification. However, in the context of freedom of expression, it is the portrayal or description which matters, not how it came to exist.

      The second distinction is that words come at you more slowly. When they start to portray an obscene image you can simply stop reading or, if it is someone talking, you can leave. If you are trying to decide whether to read something that might be obscene, you read a bit, perhaps skim, and get a good idea of whether you want to read the details.

      When someone is talking you might be able to leave, but probably not so rapidly that you miss whatever they were going to say, and the choice to leave may cost you. You also can't skim ahead in a live conversation; by the time you decide you don't want to hear whatever is being said, most of the "damage" is already done.

      Finally, it doesn't necessarily require many words to evoke an "obscene" mental image; a single sentence, or even just a few words, may suffice, occupying no more time than that required to observe a picture or a scene from a movie.

      --
      "The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else." - Bastiat
    98. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      It wasn't homeowner's association. I'd never buy where one exists.

      http://www.vbco.org/government0335.asp#INLINK004
      https://www.usps.com/manage/know-mailbox-guidelines.htm

      The post office isn't so strict, but in Van Buren County, they'll pull down your mailbox in 30 days if it doesn't comply, then charge you for pulling it down.

    99. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by Quila · · Score: 1

      I was opposing the concept of absolutely no person-equivalent rights for organizations. It would be untenable otherwise. Imagine, prosecution for upsetting the politicians, searches without warrants, shut down and seizure with no due process.

    100. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Okay, can you perhaps explain for the benefit of us slow people how, "We won't bother putting your mail in your mailbox if its placement doesn't satisfy certain requirements, and you can pick up your mail at the post office until you correct that," is equivalent to a "federal crime?"

      Because where I come from, I'm pretty sure that "we'll stop delivering your mail," isn't at quite the same level as "life with no parole in a federal Supermax prison."

      You weren't allowed to change the location because you were in a roadside delivery area; Putting the box on your house would mean that the mail carrier would have to drive up to your house, park, get out of the vehicle, go to your door, and put your mail in the box there. This wastes huge amounts of time in thinly populated suburban / rural areas, and so your choices are, "roadside delivery, or pick it up yourself at the post office."

      You may not like these rules... but they certainly aren't "federal crimes."

    101. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by redlemming · · Score: 1

      Sex for money should not be illegal. It is an overreach of local government in my opinion. It is between two consenting adults.

      That's a reasonable position to take, but should it be constitutionally protected?

      From a historical perspective, "no sex for money" within the USA is really an expression of religious belief of certain mainstream religious traditions within the USA. The history channel had a series ("The History of Sex") that covered this in considerable detail (apparently, the FBI was initially created as the nation's sex police).

      In brief, the Protestant religions disliked the openness of some earlier Christian leaders to this practice, and the Catholic Counter-Reformation changed Catholic views on the subject as well.

      Asian and even Western "Pagan" religions have treated this subject (and the whole subject of human sexuality) very differently from the Christian world (as those who are familiar with religous and secular practices in the Greek and Roman world will be quite aware).

      Therefore, there definitely is a Constitutional issue here. It's called separation of church and state, something the USA is far behind Europe in achieving. It's not neccesarily a major issue, but the issue exists.

      There may also be an issue with legal ethics, as anytime the legal system interferes with behavior that will be viewed as reasonable by many ordinary people, that can be considered a situation involving conflict of interest on the part of legal professionals as a class in society. Given that prostitution is legal in a number of Western countries, the "reasonable" part is easy to show.

      In practice, whatever the laws may say, I'd expect you can find "sex for money" in any city in the USA.

    102. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by readin · · Score: 1

      Sex for money should not be illegal. It is an overreach of local government in my opinion. It is between two consenting adults.

      That's a reasonable position to take, but should it be constitutionally protected?

      From a historical perspective, "no sex for money" within the USA is really an expression of religious belief of certain mainstream religious traditions within the USA. The history channel had a series ("The History of Sex") that covered this in considerable detail (apparently, the FBI was initially created as the nation's sex police).

      In brief, the Protestant religions disliked the openness of some earlier Christian leaders to this practice, and the Catholic Counter-Reformation changed Catholic views on the subject as well.

      Asian and even Western "Pagan" religions have treated this subject (and the whole subject of human sexuality) very differently from the Christian world (as those who are familiar with religous and secular practices in the Greek and Roman world will be quite aware).

      Therefore, there definitely is a Constitutional issue here. It's called separation of church and state,

      Except that "separation of church and state" is a Supreme Court issue not a Constitutional issue. While the Court has mentioned "separation of church and state" many times, the Constitution mentions is zero times. What the the Constitution guarantees is that there won't be a government church, and that people are able to freely practice their religion. Now if you can show that we have some people for whom sex for money is a religious practice, then you can argue that their need to practice their religion makes it a Constitutional issue. That certainly could have been an issue 3000 years ago, but is it an issue today?

      Don't forget that religion heavily influences how one views the world. It inspired Americans to seek the abolition of slavery. It inspired Americans to make their government stop the army's brutal treatment of Filipinos. It inspired Americans to end child labor and alcohol. It inspired Americans to oppose Japan's brutal war in China. It inspired Americans to end Jim Crow laws and pass the Civil Rights act. Absent the religious values of American citizens, the country won't be capable of handling democracy. To suggest that the First Amendment requires Americans to stop believing when they enter the voting booth is a dangerous misreading of the Bill of Rights.

      --
      I often don't like the choices people make, but I like the fact that people make choices. That's why I'm a conservative.
    103. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      You're confusing the right of free speech with the right to be heard. The former is protected, the latter is not. E.g., you have the right to say something. You don't have the right to force me to hear you.

      No, you're misunderstanding me. I don't have the right to be heard in that you have the right to not listen. I do have the right to be hearable, however. That's a crucial distinction.

      For example, it's okay for a politician to buy up a bunch of first-adjacent or last-adjacent ad slots to air their attack ads. It's not okay for them to buy up every adjacent ad slot on every station and fill them all with pictures of poodles so that his or her opponent cannot get any air time at all.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    104. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by Obfuscant · · Score: 1
      It's hard to tell from the whacked indentation system /. has created, but it appears that this is a subthread in response to the statement by AC that you can tear your mailbox down and refuse to answer the door to the mailman if you want to stop getting mail. You asked if it wasn't a crime to do that. Is that where we are?

      If so, both links you give are regulations about how any mailbox you do have must be constructed and where it can be placed. They are not regulations saying you must have a mailbox. The AC is quite correct. If you don't want to get mail from USPS, tear your mailbox down and provide no other means of delivery.

      Many rural people have chosen not to have a mailbox, opting instead for pickup at the local PO. That's to keep their mail from sitting in a box along a country road unattended for most of the day.

      When I last tried to get a PO box, I was told that doing so would mean that I would no longer get anything delivered at home, even if it was addressed to my home and not the PO box. In other words, my mailbox would be useless and I might as well tear it down. They can't force you to have a mailbox that they refuse to deliver to, can they? (They don't.)

    105. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      Clearly you weren't paying a lot of attention to the ads associated with the presidential campaign that just concluded in the US.

      Clearly you weren't watching the political ads. They are not commercial speech, nor was the speech attempted by CU.

      This case essentially gives any non-corporeal legal entity the protected right to say whatever the hell it wants.

      You are patently and absurdly wrong. The CU decision said no such thing. It did nothing to strike down any existing or potential commercial speech limitations. You cannot use the word "new" longer than a certain time fixed by the FTC when referring to your "new, improved" product, for example. Many other forms of commercial speech have limits. Ads for medicines cannot make outlandish claims about efficacy for conditions without proof. The DNC prohibits commercial speech from people who would sit in a boilerroom cold-calling everyone in sequence. (Whether criminals pay attention to the law is irrelevant, the law is constitutional and is a clear limit on commercial speech.) Financial organizations have limits on how they make offers to the public, and what claims they can make about success. The examples are almost endless.

      So no, the Citizen's United decision did NOT say that "non-corporeal legal entities" can say whatever they want. Not even close.

    106. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      Which is only offensive if you choose to view it as such.

      All determinations of "offensive" are subjective. I.e., "only because you choose to view it as such". Someone who thinks that obscenity should not be protected speech would not be offended by regulations prohibiting it, as demonstrated by the continued bans on profanity and obscenity on broadcast TV and amateur radio services. I know of nobody who is submitting an NPRM to the FCC to remove the part of the CFR that makes profanity illegal on ham radio. (47CFR97.113(a)(4)).

      Is "fuck" offensive and profanity? Some people don't think so. Say it more than "once by accident" on any repeater I operate and you'll be banned from that repeater. Express the concepts using polite language and you'll have no problem.

      It's the people who believe that "bad words" exist who are bad people.

      Oh my. There goes the entire debate about racism and racist language, then. Only bad people think that there can be racist language, yes?

    107. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by randyleepublic · · Score: 1

      This is why it is so incredibly crucial that, as soon as possible, we get a constitutional amendment completely re-organizing political campaign spending. Anything that people vote on, i.e. people and initiatives, should be considered a special exception to free speech, and monetary expenditures on *publishing* speech that promotes an individual candidate or initiative should be limited or eliminated altogether.

      --
      Social Credit would solve everything...
    108. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by redlemming · · Score: 1

      Except that "separation of church and state" is a Supreme Court issue not a Constitutional issue. While the Court has mentioned "separation of church and state" many times, the Constitution mentions it zero times.

      The Court has mentioned separation of church and state many times because the judges are familiar with history, and the writings of the Founding Fathers.

      Don't forget that the period in which the American Revolution happened is the period now known as the Enlightenment, a period in which scientific, rational thinking started replacing blind faith. Many of the Founding Fathers, men such as Jefferson and Franklin, were deeply immersed in the Enlightenment, and the concept of "separation of church and state" flowed in large part from that.

      You can look in the usual places for more information on this: the Wikipedia pages on "separation of church and state" and "the Enlightenment" are a good place to start.

      The phrase "separation of church and state" actually comes directly from Jefferson's writing.

      Many of the Founding Fathers were careful students of history, and were well aware of the problems caused by interference between religion and the state, not just in Colonial America, but throughout history.

      You can read up on some of issues yourself. For example, the Byzantine empire -- which lasted for a thousand years -- ultimately lost to Islam in large part because of an attempt to impose a state religion (a particular version of Christianity) upon the peoples of the empire (many of whom, ironically, shared the overall Christian faith except for what to us today seem minor details, for example Egyptian and Syrian Monophysitism). This, of course, was heavily responsible for shaping the geography of the modern world and creating the current Islamic dominance in the Middle-East.

      Yet another historical area it is good to be familiar with to understand this topic is the Protestant Reformation and the many years of religious wars and conflict that were associated with it (the 30 Year's War is a good starting point).

      English history, in particular, was heavily affected by the conflicts between Protestant and Catholic beliefs, and had many problems associated with mixing church and state, a point the Founding Fathers would have been especially aware of.

      All of these things happened well before the American revolution.

      Madison wrote the Bill of Rights in order to address objections posed by the anti-Federalists that a) the Constitution didn't posses a Bill of Rights, and b) any Bill of Rights would necessarily be incomplete. Many references exist on the writing of the Bill of Rights if you wish more information on this.

      The text of the 9th Amendment, and part of the 10th Amendment (rights retained by the people, rights reserved to the people) were specifically written to address the second objection: these make the Bill of Rights open-ended. So arguments of the form that "the Constitution doesn't say this or that or mentions issue x 0 times" are invalid and meaningless: an open-ended Bill of Rights means that we can raise issues at the Constitutional level without those issues being explicitly mentioned.

      Having a spiritual side can be healthy for many individuals, but there is a difference between individual pursuit of spirituality and imposing one's religious beliefs on others.

      Regarding your other comments, it is far from clear that religion or religious belief was the primary reason for either the existence or success of the Civil Rights movement, or that Americans will not be able to handle democracy without religion (nor does separation of church and state require abolishing religion: to separate is not to abolish).

      Prohibition, which certainly inspired by religion, was a disaster. Ending child labor was not necessarily driven by religion: for example, in England, at least one of the early laws against child labor (Manchester, 1802, source: Edmund Robertson, Encyclopedia Britannica) was immediately

    109. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by AK+Marc · · Score: 1
      Someone else said " But if you own the mailbox, then you can do whatever you like with it." and I was addressing that specific and particular point. You can't. The feds have rules, and the local government has rules. And no, there is no homeowner association where I live.

      When I last tried to get a PO box, I was told that doing so would mean that I would no longer get anything delivered at home, even if it was addressed to my home and not the PO box.

      Odd, I have had PO boxes in the past, and that was never a condition of the PO box. They have something here (non-US) called "private bag" that does that, but it's a way for a business to get mail delivered to a physical address without the sender knowing the address (businesses without walk-in traffic like it so that people don't drop by uninvited).

    110. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by readin · · Score: 1
      I'll skip answering all of your comments on the history of the Bill of Rights because we'll end of arguing over questions of judicial philosophy and I frankly don't have time for that. Nor do I have time for a lengthy discussion the extent to which the American democracy and tolerance was the result of overcoming Christianity vs the result of Christianity. Rather, I'll skip to your final paragraphs.

      Having a spiritual side can be healthy for many individuals, but there is a difference between individual pursuit of spirituality and imposing one's religious beliefs on others.

      True. That is one of the reasons many people object to welfare and socialized medicine. It is one thing for an individual to practice generosity due to their religous beliefs, but it is another for the state to impose those beliefs on individuals who do not share those beliefs and would much rather be selfish.

      Regarding your other comments, it is far from clear that religion or religious belief was the primary reason for either the existence or success of the Civil Rights movement, or that Americans will not be able to handle democracy without religion

      Every multi-party democracy that lasted significant length of time originated and flourished in a cultural environment that is either currently or was historically a largely Judeo-Christian cultural environment. (I don't consider Japan "multi-party" for this purpose because for most of its democratic experience a single party dominated, and having finally started switching parties they are unable to maintain a stable government). Countries have that have officially rejected religion have been in every single case oppressive and backward.

      (nor does separation of church and state require abolishing religion: to separate is not to abolish).

      In modern times, that statement is increasingly false. Every year the state controls more and more of our lives. If religion is evicted from every part of our lives that the state controls, what is left of religion when the state controls everything? What, for example, happens to the Catholic Church when the government tells them that if they want to continue to their charities, they'll be required to do some things that violate their beliefs? What happens to Catholic businessmen when they are told that they can either violate their beliefs or they can shut down their businesses? In any case, separation of church and state effectively puts a religious test on high office because most people who have religious beliefs cannot simply abandon those beliefs when they go on the job. As you mention later, those beliefs may be good or bad. They may lead you to vote for the abolition of slavery or for equal rights for black people despite the anger of your contituents, or they may lead you to vote to restrict the right of gays to do what they do in their bedrooms. But that's why we have elections - to pick the people who will represent us. And that is why we used to have 50 states, so different states could make different laws reflecting the different beliefs of their peoples.

      Prohibition, which certainly inspired by religion, was a disaster.

      Yep, sometimes you get baby; sometimes you get bathwater.

      Ending child labor was not necessarily driven by religion: for example, in England, at least one of the early laws against child labor (Manchester, 1802, source: Edmund Robertson, Encyclopedia Britannica) was immediately motivated by the desire to avoid epidemic, and at least some of the numerous English laws against child labor already in existence by 1904 (when the US NCLC was created) would have been familiar to educated Americans.

      Most social movements have multiple causes. The call for eugenics necessarily driven by science, but science contributed.

      I am willing to accept claims that religious beliefs can have positive influences on the

      --
      I often don't like the choices people make, but I like the fact that people make choices. That's why I'm a conservative.
    111. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by redlemming · · Score: 1

      And I have to disagree strongly with you about the role of Christianity in Civil Rights. There was simply no rational reason, none at all, for a white majority to end slavery and to embrace civil rights. With slavery the prompting to end it came from the churches - in particular the most fundamentalist churches with the most radical beliefs.

      The white majority in the North didn't practice slavery. Similarly, the white majority in England (which didn't have those radical fundamentalist churches) outlawed it much sooner than the USA. Was this entirely or even primarily done for religious reasons? I think that you would have a tough time showing that.

      There were numerous attempts by clergy in the North to force the Erie Canal to close on Sundays. Every one failed. This shows that economic issues (and perhaps an awareness of fundamental freedom) trumped religion in the North even in those days. Thus, we can not ascribe the lack of slavery in the North solely or even primarily to the influence of religion.

      There are a number of secular reasons to oppose slavery. For example, history shows that what goes around often comes around. If we permit one minority group to be enslaved today, then we open the door for the current majority to themselves become victims later when things change.

      Another consideration: slavery (or discrimination based upon race) is inconsistent with the ideas instrumental to the founding of the USA and which we cherish to this day, such the idea that all persons are created equal, or the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. There are strong secular reasons to desire consistency in the legal system. Many colonists of the USA were fleeing the inconsistencies of the English legal system (consider the long history of "peasant" revolts in England), so I think many people would have been aware of this on some level.

      Similarly, being reasonably open to immigration is one of the great strengths of America: many of our greatest have been immigrants. Open policies towards immigration are inconsistent with enslaving minorities. Many of those immigrants that were discriminated against (such as the Irish, once upon a time) would likely have been sympathetic towards others experiencing the same thing.

      Enslavement of African-Americans was also inconsistent with scientific rationalism: it is very obvious that African-Americans, given the right opportunities and growing up in the right environment, are every bit as intelligent as anyone else, sometimes considerably more intelligent, and for those with a rational scientific worldview (or even just a sense of fairness and honesty) we simply can not justify not treating these people with the respect their intelligence deserves.

      A sense of fairness and honesty in themselves work against slavery or discrimination: most people can figure out that if they treat others badly, they'll be treated the same way in return. While this is in accord with certain religious teachings, it's also a conclusion one can come to through simple life experience without any religious beliefs entering into consideration.

      Probably the strongest secular reason for not having slavery for the average person is that slavery permits immense concentration of wealth into the hands of a tiny minority of society, which in turn greatly limits opportunities for most of the population. This is shown both by the history of ancient Rome and by what happened in the US South.

    112. Re:It is about not lettting ideas be silenced by 5KVGhost · · Score: 1

      "Indeed. The 1st Amendment protects us from government, but who protects us from powerful groups, such as companies, unions, etc.?"

      You do. It's your responsibility as a citizen to secure your rights. No one is going to do it for you.

      " We really need a supplemental "Bill Of Rights" to address organizations of people and how individuals are protected from those organizations."

      The Bill of Rights doesn't protect anyone from anything. It recognizes the inherent rights of human beings and sets limits on the power granted to the government by the people. If you insist on giving the government more power to "protect" you, you shouldn't be surprised when those same powers are used in ways you don't like.

  2. So... another attack on free speech. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    There is no difference between asking google to retrive information and provide a report than it is to request a secretary to find all references to a contract and provide a report.

    The "report" in both cases should be considered free speech.

    1. Re:So... another attack on free speech. by isilrion · · Score: 2
      I agree with you in principle, but:

      There is no difference between asking google to retrive information and provide a report than it is to request a secretary to find all references to a contract and provide a report.

      There is one, very important, difference: asking google to retrieve information is much more efficient than requesting a secretary to do so. That's pretty much the point of asking google. There are people in this forum who will claim that the difference is essential. I find that position nonsensical, but by ignoring it, you leave open a point of attack. So I would make your conclusion more explicit:

      The "report" in both cases should be considered free speech, regardless of how efficient were the means used to obtain it.

      (I would also go beyond free speech here and include those actions that are considered correct or legal to do by yourself but become illegal if you ask someone else for assistance, free or not. But extending on this idea would probably be offtopic)

  3. I'm confused... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Why wouldn't the "speech" that is produced by the "automated" program, be speech from the author of the program?

    1. Re:I'm confused... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then couldn't you sue anyone with an RNG for libel? It produced this sequence which with this encoding means (whatever helps your case).

    2. Re:I'm confused... by YodasEvilTwin · · Score: 1

      Why wouldn't speech that is produced by a child be speech from its parents?

    3. Re:I'm confused... by maeglin · · Score: 1

      Then couldn't you sue anyone with an RNG for libel? It produced this sequence which with this encoding means (whatever helps your case).

      I think the GP is close, but in some cases may slightly off. E.g., the speech is often that of the user of the software, not the author of the software. Imagine a word processor with a working grammar auto-correct feature. The auto-corrected text is not the text entered by the user but surely it's not the speech of the person who wrote the word processor. His speech is the software itself. Instead, the resulting document seems clearly to be the speech of the user.

      To sue for libel the content must have been published somewhere and therefore there must be a publisher involved, even if it's just Joe from Joe's Blog fame. If I write a cron job to execute "fortune > index.html" every hour I am still the publisher of that content and am taking on risk of bad ju-ju occurring if the author of fortune slipped in something that could be considered libelous.

      Of course this seems to break down for the purposes of the actual article. Using the above Google would be the publisher and the author would be the person actually providing the search query and interacting with the system. That seems a bit off to me. I suppose the trickiness of it all is why there's a debate in the first place.

      Is the difficulty in neatly placing generated content into a predefined constitutional cubby hole a sufficient reason to encroach on the right of free speech? It should not be a matter of asking why generated content should be protected, rather, there needs to be a compelling reason why it should not be. Because once that right is gone we're not getting it back.

    4. Re:I'm confused... by CanHasDIY · · Score: 2

      Why wouldn't speech that is produced by a child be speech from its parents?

      Really? You've gotta be trollin' me...

      Maybe because children and parents are individual entities both endowed with their own, separate rights by the Constitution.

      Conversely, a software program is a piece of work, created by a human, that has no rights.

      As far as strawmen go, the one you built here is about as piss-poor as they can get.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    5. Re:I'm confused... by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Children have almost no rights. Can't vote, can't drink, can't drive, can't be party to most contracts. Back years ago, women and children had rights only from the man of the family. We've moved on slightly since, but still base our society on those basics. The law explicitly exempts the young and the old from claims of age discrimination.

    6. Re:I'm confused... by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      Children have almost no rights. Can't vote, can't drink, can't drive, can't be party to most contracts.

      Children have the same Constitutional rights as adults. Drinking, driving, and signing contracts are privileges, not Constitutionally guaranteed rights.

      Voting is the only exception, and it's only a right to persons above the age of 18 (per the Constitution).

      Back years ago, women and children had rights only from the man of the family.

      It's not "years ago" any more. That thought process doesn't apply here.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
  4. It's ironic by destinyland · · Score: 2

    I was really surprised there were almost no comments on this story...

    1. Re:It's ironic by YodasEvilTwin · · Score: 1

      It was tweeted in the last couple minutes, I'm guessing that's when most of the comments start coming in.

    2. Re:It's ironic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One's freedom of speech includes the freedom to say nothing.

      Unless it's the machine generated output of /dev/null.

  5. speech by phantomfive · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Some courts go by the rule that if something is used as an attempt to communicate, then it is speech.
    Other courts have gone by the rule that if it transmits information, it is speech.

    I prefer the first rule, but this guy doesn't like either. He thinks that if something is generally accepted by society to be a method of speech, then it is speech.

    He seems to come to this conclusion because in that case, he assumes software like word processors, servers, operating systems, etc, are not free speech.

    Personally I prefer the courts that say if something is an attempt to communicate, then it is speech. A word processor is not an attempt to communicate, it is a tool. The source code of a word processor, however, most definitely IS a communication. It's not clear the poster understands the difference between source code and binaries.

    --
    "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    1. Re:speech by Quila · · Score: 2

      A word processor is not an attempt to communicate, it is a tool. The source code of a word processor, however, most definitely IS a communication

      Source code communicates to a compiler how the compiler is supposed to function. But a binary communicates to the operating system and hardware how they are supposed to function. The binary is effectively your original communication interpreted into a different language, which, if it were a book, would be covered. Also, it is possible to write the machine language binary data from scratch, just as values inserted into memory locations, which would make the binary itself your source code. I've written that way.

    2. Re:speech by VortexCortex · · Score: 1

      the difference between source code and binaries.

      I can write software in machine code. Now what's this difference you're on about?

    3. Re:speech by Kjella · · Score: 1

      I'll go one better and dismiss all three. To take his definition first, if I were to send a referee software for the legally blind it would surely be considered an act of expression even though distributing software in general is not, so that is clearly insufficient. If I was rolling my eyes as the Great Leader hymn was playing then clearly that was an act of expression even though I didn't mean it as an attempt at communication, so that definition is insufficient too. Finally not answering the question "You don't really think I did it, do you?" means that absence of information transmission is in itself a form of expression. Even total indifference is arguably protected under the first amendment, in case you don't want to join the Two Minute Hate. Of course being a form of expression doesn't mean it's protected, terror is a pretty clear form of communication just not a lawful one.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    4. Re:speech by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Sure, but do you?

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    5. Re:speech by BillX · · Score: 1

      But can't a tool itself be a form of speech? Even something as ordinary as a word processor - every release of [Open|Libre]Office is a testament to the power of crowdsourcing and open source; the fact such a tool remains competitive while MS pumps untold millions into MSWord speaks volumes.

      Some other tools that are arguably speech:

      DeCSS (the US courts upheld that it was speech, in source OR binary form. Consider other politically and ideologically motivated tools, such as DDoS software, Stuxnet, ink-cartridge resetters, jailbreaking tools...)

      Not only software tools. What if you built a hammer that plays the sound of Baby Jesus crying if it detects you are pounding nails into a non-sustainable type of lumber? Or nails with a mugshot of a dictator on the head of every one?

      I think no matter how you slice it, someone inevitably has to make a judgment call on where the line between speech and non-speech lies. In this case, a human judge would still have to decide whether your tool counts as an "attempt to communicate" or merely just a tool.

      --
      Caveat Emptor is not a business model.
    6. Re:speech by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      In this case, a human judge would still have to decide whether your tool counts as an "attempt to communicate" or merely just a tool.

      I do agree, in fact I thought I had made that point clear in my post, but I guess I didn't. :/

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
  6. We have such sights to show you by Dachannien · · Score: 1

    I think the answer to this question is best summarized by a quote from Hellraiser II:

    "It is not hands that summon us - it is desire."

    So it is with speech. Speech is present only by its intent.

  7. Subjectivity Is Very Dangerous! by eldavojohn · · Score: 4, Insightful

    And not machine generated content: such content is not necessarily the output of people, unless a person arranges for a _specific_ machine output in order to express an idea. If the 1st Amendment is truly about ensuring that ideas cannot be censored, then free speech is not about permitting anyone to say purposely offensive things (i.e., the form of their speech), but about their right to express (perhaps politely) the _ideas_ contained in their speech.

    I'm no constitutional scholar either but I feel you are proposing very subjective measurements. Once it gets to the point of you deciding what is and isn't protected free speech by way of how nice, specific or worthwhile you are pretty much censoring based on what you personally feel is or isn't acceptable!

    Right now, we don't actively censor people who wish to yell "FIRE!" in a crowded theater. For what if there was a fire in said theater? Instead, we let everything be said and then if it is felt that libel, slander, criminal intent, death threats, etc were said, you may bring it to the attention of a court of law. Even those make free speech an uneasy topic but they have tried to codify those conditions as best as possible.

    Imagine a judge determining what is "nice" enough to leave up and what is "purposely offensive" enough to take down. If some heavy metal band wants to write a song that consists entirely of cursing and intercourse references and other people enjoy said music, who am I to demand that be taken down by how offensive it is?

    Free speech is about free speech. Not ideas, not being nice, not worrying about offending some prude. There are laws that are applied after the fact but you should be able to say whatever you want! Did we not just cover this in the last story? Look at the UK and how absurd some of their free speech cases are! They must decide what is "grossly offensive" and what is "merely offensive" to determine if someone goes to jail!

    --
    My work here is dung.
    1. Re:Subjectivity Is Very Dangerous! by cjonslashdot · · Score: 1

      I agree it is a slippery slope. But there actually are standards. E.g., one cannot libel someone. And if you yell "fire" in a theater and there is no fire, you will be kicked out. But you are right that we must be careful about such standards because they can indeed be used to censor ideas. The censorship of ideas and of whistle-blowing are the main concerns in my opinion.

    2. Re:Subjectivity Is Very Dangerous! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Again, for your benefit: Libel is a standard. Loss of money can be proved. Loss of life can be proved. In the case of "fire" in a theater, lying can be proved.

      However: Nice is not a standard. Specificity is not a standard. Offensive cannot be proved.

    3. Re:Subjectivity Is Very Dangerous! by MozeeToby · · Score: 1

      And if you yell "fire" in a theater and there is no fire, you will be kicked out.

      It's kind of a shame that things have changed so much that this phrase has lost all meaning. (Well, I mean, it's good that our fire codes have improved so a fire isn't so insanely dangerous, but I digress.) Yelling "fire" in a crowded theater is about annoying people, or even causing a panic. It's about killing people. Sometimes dozens of people. Several hundred people crammed into a dark, fabric filled room (not to mention all the flammable clothing) with a single exit? Lot's of people died in fires in those kinds of conditions and yelling fire was all but guaranteed to cause a stampede to the exit leaving people injured and dead. That is what the supreme court ruled was not protected, using speech in such a way that you know will cause harm and death to other people. And they had to argue that all the way to the supreme court to get a final decision: now think how easily our rights are eroded today and compare.

      For reference:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Hall_disaster
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Surrey_Gardens

    4. Re:Subjectivity Is Very Dangerous! by JesseMcDonald · · Score: 2

      Right now, we don't actively censor people who wish to yell "FIRE!" in a crowded theater. For what if there was a fire in said theater? Instead, we let everything be said and then if it is felt that libel, slander, criminal intent, death threats, etc were said, you may bring it to the attention of a court of law.

      Punishing someone for speech after the fact is still censorship. In fact, censorship in practice, at the level of law, consists almost exclusively of punishing someone after the fact for unwanted speech. The presumption that speech involving libel, slander, etc. will be met with punishment is no less censorship than the presumption that speech criticizing the government will be met with punishment.

      Libel and slander are not properly a matter for courts. First, one does not have a right to one's reputation, which would amount to a right to how other people think of you. Damage to your reputation is thus not something you should have legal standing for. Second, suing over libel or slander is counter-productive; it serves only to show how much you want to shut someone up. The more force you bring to bear against someone defaming you, the more credibility you lend to their statements. If the defamation is true then the damage to your reputation is deserved; if not, then the correct response is to educate and persuade, not to make threats.

      In the case of "criminal intent" or other threats, you're not being punished for the speech; the response is pure self-defense. If you claim that you are going to harm someone, it is reasonable for them to believe that you will actually carry through with it and respond accordingly. (This could possibly be interpreted as a form of estoppel.) Naturally, the normal rules for preemptive self-defense apply: imminent threat of irreversible harm.

      --
      "The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else." - Bastiat
    5. Re:Subjectivity Is Very Dangerous! by moeinvt · · Score: 1

      "... if you yell "fire" in a theater and there is no fire, you will be kicked out."

      If you stand up and start reciting the "I Have a Dream" speech in a theater you would probably be kicked out as well.

      Justice Hugo Black brilliantly deconstructed this "fire in a theater" nonsense. Sure, there would be consequences, but the consequences stem from the fact that you are violating the rights of the theater owner and the other patrons. It's not a limitation on the freedom of speech. The same reasoning would apply if you broke into my house and started delivering a speech in my kitchen. The prohibition against doing that isn't an infringement on your right to free speech.

      If you owned or rented a theater and sold people tickets specifically for the purpose of hearing you speak, you can yell "fire" as many times as you want to.

    6. Re:Subjectivity Is Very Dangerous! by VortexCortex · · Score: 1

      Free speech is about free speech. Not ideas

      I dare you to speak without any idea of what to say. Speech is the method by which ideas and information are conveyed...
      Are you, by chance, Pentecostal?

    7. Re:Subjectivity Is Very Dangerous! by coyote_oww · · Score: 1

      Libel and slander are not properly a matter for courts. First, one does not have a right to one's reputation, which would amount to a right to how other people think of you. Damage to your reputation is thus not something you should have legal standing for. Second, suing over libel or slander is counter-productive; it serves only to show how much you want to shut someone up. The more force you bring to bear against someone defaming you, the more credibility you lend to their statements. If the defamation is true then the damage to your reputation is deserved; if not, then the correct response is to educate and persuade, not to make threats.

      I disagree. You are assuming relative equality between the parties, which is often not present. There is disparity in people's ability to communicate TRVTH. If I am slandered by Citizen Kane, my chances of correcting peoples impressions are nil to none. Further, your position assumes and equality in skill of presentation. Consider Rush Limbaugh or Barrak Obama disparaging you publicly. Like them or not, they are persuasive speakers. You are unlikely to be able to compete with their presentation skills. The formality of court, with rules of evidence, mandated turns, jury instructions, levels the playing field.

      Further, I personally disagree with forcible defenses implying that the defender is dishonest. I think a more evidence-based approach is better. The man accused of rape who denies the charge vigorously to all who will listen, including slander/libel charges, is not more likely to be guilty or innocent based on the energy of his denial.

      Even further, there is an interim between slander/libel statements and the time that they can be explained or refuted. Real damage can occur in this time. Slanderous persons should be held liable for the damages they cause, just as companies making false claims about products should. It is kind of two sides of the same coin.

      Lastly, it is easy enough to frame your opinon as an opinion, and avoid all possibility of libel. "I think CVS Caremark is dishonest and irresponsible" is never going to be actionable, because it is a factual statement. I actually think that.

    8. Re:Subjectivity Is Very Dangerous! by tlhIngan · · Score: 1

      It's kind of a shame that things have changed so much that this phrase has lost all meaning. (Well, I mean, it's good that our fire codes have improved so a fire isn't so insanely dangerous, but I digress.) Yelling "fire" in a crowded theater is about annoying people, or even causing a panic. It's about killing people. Sometimes dozens of people. Several hundred people crammed into a dark, fabric filled room (not to mention all the flammable clothing) with a single exit? Lot's of people died in fires in those kinds of conditions and yelling fire was all but guaranteed to cause a stampede to the exit leaving people injured and dead. That is what the supreme court ruled was not protected, using speech in such a way that you know will cause harm and death to other people. And they had to argue that all the way to the supreme court to get a final decision: now think how easily our rights are eroded today and compare.

      Or, perhaps the easier way to think about it are rights are not seperable from responsibilities.

      This, along with slander/libel makes much more sense.

      You have a right to say whatever you want, but you don't have a right to saw whatever you want without consequences. Yell fire in a theatre, and you should be charged for the ensuing deaths (which can be pretty damn close to murder) and injuries, and for inciting a panic.

      LIkewise, libel/slander laws - which basically end up being you cannot say a falsehood that damages someone else. Again, responsibility - if you did it and someone has damages because of it, they should be able to go after you to reclaim them, especially if they were false.

      At least, that's the way it makes sense.

      And yes, it also means anonymous speech should be weighed very lightly as the speaker is not willing ot attach their name to said speech. (Heck, we'd still need whistleblower laws, but most whistleblowers get identified...).

    9. Re:Subjectivity Is Very Dangerous! by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Libel and slander are not properly a matter for courts. First, one does not have a right to one's reputation, which would amount to a right to how other people think of you. Damage to your reputation is thus not something you should have legal standing for. Second, suing over libel or slander is counter-productive; it serves only to show how much you want to shut someone up. The more force you bring to bear against someone defaming you, the more credibility you lend to their statements. If the defamation is true then the damage to your reputation is deserved; if not, then the correct response is to educate and persuade, not to make threats.

      Lying with the intention of gaining is illegal (fraud), so why ahould lying with the intention of causing harm (emotional or fiscal) not illegal?

    10. Re:Subjectivity Is Very Dangerous! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      " If some heavy metal band wants to write a song that consists entirely of cursing and intercourse references and other people enjoy said music, who am I to demand that be taken down by how offensive it is? "

      LOL. I think you meant "If some BLACK RAP ARTIST wants to write a song that consists entirely of cursing and intercourse references"... white-hating idiot.

    11. Re:Subjectivity Is Very Dangerous! by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      It's about killing people.

      No, it isn't. If anyone dies, it's mainly due to the people that kill them, not the ones who spoke the words.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    12. Re:Subjectivity Is Very Dangerous! by Triklyn · · Score: 1

      yes, and hitler's hands were therefore clean.

      Lets say i run into the same theatre, and lock the doors, then tell everyone i'll kill anybody who isn't standing in a 3x3 square at the end of 20 seconds. Then when 20 second elapse I just say, "hey jk, this gun isn't real, and it's not my fault all those people got trampled... they were just words." Yes, fault them for wanting to live and excuse me for inciting people to kill each other.

      Also I can be a racist radio host talking about white supremacy and killing all them foreigners and i'm fine legally. If i go and make a list of targets, or tell my listeners to go mess up all them peaceful protesters in the town square at noon... then yeah, i'm inciting violence and that is... frowned upon.

      we've got the most liberal set of free speech laws in the world, anything goes... and yet you somehow can't appreciate the single exception that is made.

    13. Re:Subjectivity Is Very Dangerous! by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      yes, and hitler's hands were therefore clean.

      I'm quite sure Hitler did more than just speak words. Furthermore, if you merely threaten someone, I do not believe you should be arrested just for that. However, if your threat is deemed to have some degree of credibility (i.e. it doesn't seem like a joke), an investigation may be in order. If it is found that it is likely you were going to act on that threat, then you would be convicted for that and not your words.

      Yes, fault them for wanting to live

      Fault them for killing others to save their own skins.

      and yet you somehow can't appreciate the single exception that is made.

      No, I can't.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    14. Re:Subjectivity Is Very Dangerous! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sure, there would be consequences

      Hopefully by "consequences" you mean getting kicked out by the theater owner. Nothing else is needed or even wanted unless the person refuses to leave.

    15. Re:Subjectivity Is Very Dangerous! by redlemming · · Score: 1

      Lot's of people died in fires in those kinds of conditions and yelling fire was all but guaranteed to cause a stampede to the exit leaving people injured and dead. That is what the supreme court ruled was not protected, using speech in such a way that you know will cause harm and death to other people. And they had to argue that all the way to the supreme court to get a final decision: now think how easily our rights are eroded today and compare.

      There is no doubt that yelling fire in a crowded theater SHOULD be treated as wrongful conduct. However, there is a HUGE problem with the Supreme Court decision that most people miss, which in turn leads directly to the way in which rights are eroded today.

      The Bill of Rights, 1st Amendment, refers to 'no law'. It is also only limited to Congress (and hence not the State or local government), but we'll use the 14th Amendment to apply it to all levels of government, so that's a non-issue.

      By the Supreme Court authorizing laws that make this -- clearly wrongful -- conduct illegal, the Court is creating a contradiction in the legal system between the "no law" text in the Bill of Rights and the presence of laws created at lower levels of government.

      Legal professionals, as a class in society, are in a position of conflict of interest with respect to the nature, scope, and form of the legal system. A legal system that is perceived as being complex, confusing, scary, or contradictory (the key item in this particular case) by ordinary people will naturally create a strong long-term demand for the services of legal professionals.

      Allowing these kinds of contradictions to exist is a very bad idea on many levels. From a nerd perspective, this is like a designer having a requirement or specificiation and choosing to ignore it without getting approval from the customer. The Constitution was barely approved as it was, and the Bill of Rights was ultimately neccesarily to the continuation of the Constitution: therefore, disregarding it in this manner was at miniumum, foolish and short sighted, and arguably a violation of the oaths of office taken by the judges.

      Every time the Supreme Court authorizes these kinds of laws (there have been many occasions), that just opens the door wider to more and more contradictions. That in turn is largely responsible for the current erosion of rights.

      We have a similiar situation with respect to the 2nd Amendment and the "may not be infringed text".

      What the Court SHOULD have done was to say, "Yes, this is wrongful conduct. But, to pass such laws, an Amendment is first needed, and that is the responsibility of a Constitutional Convention and beyond the power of this court."

  8. The code is speech, but ability to USE it matters by Qubit · · Score: 1

    If someone writes a program that facilitates the creation and retrieval of information, how can the program not be protected under the rule that “information is speech”? It seems that if we take the Sorrell approach, no software will ever be regulable—all software will be protected speech.

    The code (and output) might both be considered protected speech.

    The famous antitrust judgment finding Microsoft liable for excluding Netscape from Windows would have come out the other way, dismissed as inconsistent with Microsoft’s First Amendment right to convey information as it wishes. Apple’s wish to exclude disfavored books from the iPad eBook reader, or banish Adobe Flash from its iPhone browser, would simply be Apple’s speech.

    But in both of these cases we're talking about monopolies -- either market-wide or specific to a particular device.

    If consumers had the ability to jailbreak their Apple hardware and install whatever they wanted on there, or move any content OFF of there (SCOTUS is chewing on First Sale doctrine @now), then Apple's right to protection under Ammendment numero uno wouldn't give them carte blanche to get up in our business and do the hokey pokey all over our consumer rights.

    The Netscape/Microsoft deal is a little more tricky, because unlike with Apple, Microsoft really did have a tremendous monoploy in the market at that time. In essence, Microsoft got to define the firmament, the earth, and everything inbetween. There wasn't any viable way to interact with computer-using consumers without building on top of Windows, and MS had/has complete control of that software. But even if the 1st ammendment does give MS more leeway on how it leverages its OS APIs to give preferential treatment to in-house applications, that wouldn't preclude the courts from recognizing the validity of other entities to reverse-engineer software and hardware for compatibility.

    In short, greater freedoms for corporations under the 1st ammendment must be matched by greater freedoms for consumers and competitors under compatibility, reverse-engineering, and data freedom laws. More flexibility is great as long as the benefits are felt by all players in the game.

    --

    coding is life /* the rest is */
  9. Why? by Murdoch5 · · Score: 1

    Why does software need free speech? I don't understand how that would help it, it someone would like to explain that to me great.

    1. Re:Why? by VortexCortex · · Score: 1

      Why does software need free speech?

      say( "Well, it doesn't really, if they just amend the 2nd amendment." );
      say( "IMO, it should be ''right to bear technology'' not ''right to bear arms''." );
      say( "Some of my software has been classified by the USBIS as though they were munitions..." );
      say( "Failing a 2nd amendment exemption, the 1st amendment should be applied." );
      say( "Otherwise, I can be prevented from freely expressing myself via my source code." );

    2. Re:Why? by Hatta · · Score: 2

      Software doesn't need free speech. Authors of software need free speech.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    3. Re:Why? by melikamp · · Score: 1

      So if the software is smart enough to write software, then it needs free speech.

  10. Freedom of the press by sourcery · · Score: 2

    The First Amendment also prohibits violation of the freedom of the press--which when written, referred to the technology of publishing, and not just to the profession of journalism.

    A computer is a press in the sense meant by the First Amendment.

    --
    Cthulhu for President! Why settle for the lesser evil?
  11. You lost me at "original purpose"... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The original purpose of the 4th amendment was that the government shouldn't spy on its own citizens and make their live difficult by the means of patriots act, NDAA and the like. The original purpose of the second amendment was that the people have the same weapons as the government so that there is no way that the government can enslave the citizens.

    So why would anyone even bother arguing that the supreme court should look at the original purpose of the first amendment? They gave that idea up when they stood by when the second amendment was limited. When ignoring cases supporting gay marriage. When they validated the patriots act. When they okay'd Obama's forced reduction in the quality of health care policy.

    You will never have freedom for yourself unless you support and fight for the freedoms of others.

    Peter.

  12. It shouldn't matter by Hentes · · Score: 1

    It shouldn't matter whether something was written by you, another person, software or a monkey with a typewriter. It's the parties that take part in the communication that are responsible for it. If we make a distinction, we will see lots of people evade responsibilities putting the blame on computers ("I didn't hack that company, a script that I've written did.").
    Free speech shouldn't depend on how the speech in question was created. I can't help but feel that this is just another attempt to criminalize Google search results.

  13. Hacking the Law by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What Tuft seems to be trying to do with this is to hack the law. It is really beautiful. If the test which he proposes ("is it a culturally recognized medium of expression") is successfully folded into case law, especially at the SCOTUS level, some of the inane results of past free speech rulings in the U.S. may be easy to rectify.

  14. Software is free speech. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why wouldn't it be free speech? This means that if I use a calculator, "2+3=" is free speech, but "5" isn't.

    What if I say the answer out loud, is it still not free speech because it's the calculator's answer? Even if I wrote the program?

    Anything done on a computer is essentially an expansion of this, but really not any different.

  15. When you ask, you already threw the law overboard. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When they said "speech", they very obviously meant *all* forms of communication. Of which data is just a digitized form. And software is data. End of story.

    When you start a discussion about which parts of "ALL speech" are not part of "ALL speech", you already raped the first amendment, and you belong to jail. Also: End of story.

  16. Of course by interval1066 · · Score: 1

    Leave it to legislatures to make a simple rule regarding freedom much more complicated than it really needs to be.

    --
    Python: 'And then suddenly you have a language which says "we're all stuck with whatever the whiniest coder wants".'
  17. Congress shall make no law ... by D2inAlamo · · Score: 1

    "abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press ... ." What part of that do people not get? It makes no distinction between people, corporate entities, etc. "no law."

    1. Re:Congress shall make no law ... by moeinvt · · Score: 1

      Exactly.

      Far too many people have this idea that our rights (e.g. to free speech) are "granted" by government. The reality is that We, The People granted the government its power. Along with that, we placed certain specific prohibitions on that power. (thank $deity for that)

      "Congress shall make NO LAW ...."

      Same with Citizen's United. It's not about what "rights" organizations have, it's about what powers the government does not have.

    2. Re:Congress shall make no law ... by macbeth66 · · Score: 1

      Too late. They already have with their 'hate crime' legislation.

    3. Re:Congress shall make no law ... by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Hate crime legislation is with regards to a crime combined with another. Murder, plus 10,000,000,000 counts of threatening someone with murder (killing a black man for marrying a white woman is murder, plus an implicit threat against all other black men that they'll be killed for the same thing). It isn't about "speech". It's about explicit violence and implied threats against others based on the very real violence committed.

  18. The particular case of Google's results by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I think Google suppressing its competitor's results is not a first amendment issue. I think it's fraud. Even if it's not fraud, the court is tripping over its own stupidity with respect to "corporations are people". Google is not a person in the minds of anybody but precedent addled lawyers. Thus, Google has no rights. It's a corporation. Its very existence is a product of the state.

  19. Hope it is speech, then it can't be patented. by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 2

    May be this is how we beat the insane software patents. Declare them as speech. Give the programmers first amendment protections. Then at best software can be copyrighted. So all software patents would become invalid! hooray!

    --
    sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
    1. Re:Hope it is speech, then it can't be patented. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If software isn't speech, then it isn't creative expression and should not be copyrighted either.

    2. Re:Hope it is speech, then it can't be patented. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A patent's good for 20 years. A copyright, life + 150. Congratulations. The problem is now 7.5 times worse.

  20. Is an instruction manual "free speech"? by moeinvt · · Score: 1

    Software is basically just a set of instructions. I don't see how it could be anything but protected speech. How the software is used is something else altogether.

    I think the relevant example is the "Hitman" case. A company published an instruction manual for how to commit a murder/ assassination and someone used the info in the book to commit a murder. Obviously murder is a crime. Is the publisher of the instruction manual guilty however?

    They got sued by the victims' families. Unfortunately, the publisher's insurance company decided to settle out of court. IMO, this would be the parallel to software.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hit_Man:_A_Technical_Manual_for_Independent_Contractors

    1. Re:Is an instruction manual "free speech"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think the relevant example is the "Hitman" case. A company published an instruction manual for how to commit a murder/ assassination and someone used the info in the book to commit a murder. Obviously murder is a crime. Is the publisher of the instruction manual guilty however?

      At most the publisher could be considered an accessory to the crime

      Read the article about Aiding and abetting for more information.

  21. This is (or should be) a non-issue by swm · · Score: 1

    The author is trying to create a problem where there isn't one.
    Software is speech.
    Software is speech because it is text.
    The kind of text that comes off of printing presses.
    If freedom of the press means anything, it means the freedom to print
    #include <stdio.h>
    void main()
    {
    printf( "Hello, world\n");
    }
    Translation to x86 assembly and thence to machine code is inessential and does not affect the legal principle.
    Neither does recording the resulting bits on machine-readable media.

    1. Re:This is (or should be) a non-issue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Software doesn't necessary have to be text. It can be entered as machine code with switches. The output can be images, music or any kind of stored information.
      Simplifying the problem to software = text = speech would imply that all media fits under the laws regarding speech.
      Part of the problem is that freedom, speech, right to property and pretty much everything that is covered by law is abstract concepts with an arbitrary definition. They are whatever they say we are.
      If we start to say that software = text just because you can convert one to another then we also need to rethink copyright, patents, trademarks, loans, debt, electronic transfer of money and pretty much anything that is a matter of information management.

    2. Re:This is (or should be) a non-issue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Software is speech.

      Software is speech because it is text.

      The kind of text that comes off of printing presses.

      Or an optical disk press ;)

      But yeah, problem is people taking "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.", and missing the semicolons, which enumerate three classes of law Congress (and by the doctrine of incorporation under the 14th, states, too) cannot make. The second is laws "abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press", taken as a whole, and there is no need to distinguish whether software is "speech" when it manifestly is part of the whole.

    3. Re:This is (or should be) a non-issue by BeanThere · · Score: 1

      You have violated Apple's "hello world" patent with this comment, please take it down.

      If software is speech, then wouldn't patents violate the 1st amendment?

  22. Hang on by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Instead, the courts should turn to the original purposes of the First Amendment"

    Woah! Slow down there. That's original intent.

  23. If it's under your control, it's "speech" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This seems rather obvious, whether you type it in or use some form of automation, ranging from spelling cleanup to complete restructuring/tweaking programs you are publishing and should fall under 1st amendment's speech protection.

  24. A computer is a tool by davidwr · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Just about any information-processing software can do a person or team could do if they had infinite time and storage space.

    Perhaps it would make more sense to look at "computer-generated" speech as if a person or team of people was "running the algorithm" and presented the result to the person asking for the data.

    For example, if in the pre-computer, pre-health-privacy era my boss asked me to give him a report of what doctors had prescribed what drugs in the state for the previous year, I would go and talk to each doctor, buy the information from them, write my report, and hand it to him. If it's legal for a non-automated, all-human process to generate and publish this report, then it should be legal for a computer to do so. If it's not legal for people to do it - say, due to privacy laws - then having a computer do it shouldn't change the legality.

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
  25. Regulating just shy of outlawing? by davidwr · · Score: 1

    Sex for money should be legal, and regulated.

    The power to regulate is the power to de facto prohibit. I could "legalize" prostitution but make the regulations so burdensome that the only people who would become legal prostitutes or hire them would be doing so just to make a point, as opposed to the usual reasons people become prostitutes or hire them.

    In my city, housing is regulated by building codes.

    While it is not illegal for a home-builder looking to build low-income housing to build homes that have a fair market value of only $500 over the value of a vacant lot, local building codes mean that any building with that low of a market value would not be legal to live in. Or rather, if it met the building code as a home, it's market value would be very much over $500. Yes, I could build a home and sell it to someone for $500 over the cost of the lot, but he would have a much more valuable property and would be taxed accordingly.

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
    1. Re:Regulating just shy of outlawing? by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      You are correct, and that is the point of burdensome regulations. Both the progressives and conservatives understand this, and why allowing them to control things keeps us on a steady march towards tyranny.

      Here in California, it creates a really odd set of parameters that looks completely ridiculous when you put two competing ideas together. Legalization of Marijuana and outlawing smoking. Both are "progressive" initiatives.

      Reference for people who think I'm smoking dope ... http://www.no-smoke.org/

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
  26. Even more... by davidwr · · Score: 1

    It's possible for a human being to read the binary code and receive information put in by both the original source-code author and the tools used to convert the source code to the binary.

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
  27. I don't get this guy's argument by BillX · · Score: 1

    "Software, in other words, should be considered not for what it is or even what it says but for what it means to society to treat it like speech. [...] Thus, videogames should be protected not because they convey information and not because they are like literature, but because they are a culturally recognized medium of expression."

    This definition of when a given piece of software does or does not cross into 'speech' territory sounds awfully familiar. Rough translation: "We can't enumerate what exactly makes software speechware, but we'll know it when we see it." Where have I heard that before...?

    --
    Caveat Emptor is not a business model.
  28. Code vs. Data by DoctorBit · · Score: 1

    In the Von Neumann architecture, software consists of both "code" and "data". Suppose that only the "data" component of software was protected under the first amendment. This would mean that any laws passed would have to apply to only the "code" - a difficult task, but perhaps manageable. So the software:

    printf("Candidate A sucks.");

    would be immune from regulation unless congress passed a law prohibiting any software of the form:

    printf(MemoryAddress);

  29. Gabriella Coleman by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  30. Yes, software will deserve protection by GPS+Pilot · · Score: 1

    It's a thorny question, but I do know that when I wrote a program that solves sudoku puzzles, it was a much greater accomplishment than solving one particular sudoku puzzle.

    Similarly, if/when somebody writes a program that, in turn, writes an essay that actually entertains or informs people, it will be a much greater accomplishment than writing a particular essay that entertains or informs people. As such, the software will deserve first-amendment protection.

    --
    That that is is that that that that is not is not.
  31. Use political speech for your examples by Sloppy · · Score: 1

    One way I think helps to look at speech issues, is to imagine that topic of conversion were political (whether it really is, or not) and imagining it happening in the 1770s.

    What if Tomas Paine or Samuel Adams were publishing computer programs, whose output were tables of imperial taxes divided by number of parliament seats? That's "just facts and information" but also 1) analytical, and the type of analysis chosen is derived from opinions 2) quite possible politically enlightening. Hell Yes the 1789 ratifiers thought they were outlawing government interference with that sort of thing.

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