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DuckDuckGo - Is Google Playing Fair?
Penurious Penguin writes "Privacy-oriented search-engine and Google-rival DuckDuckGo is contending possible anti-competitiveness on the part of Google. MIT graduate and founder of DuckDuckGo Gabriel Weinberg cites several examples; his company's disadvantages in the Android mobile OS; and browsers, which in Firefox requires only a single step to set DuckDuckGo as the default search — while doing so in Chrome requires five. Weinberg also questions the domain duck.com, which he offered to purchase before it was acquired by Google. His offer was declined and duck.com now directs to Google's homepage.
Weinberg isn't the first to make similar claims; there was scroogle.org, which earlier this year, permanently shut down after repeated compatibility issues with Google's algorithms. Whatever the legitimacy of these claims, there certainly seems a growing market for people interested in privacy and objective searches — avoiding profiled search-results, a.k.a. 'filter bubbles.'"
It's all about numbers, shares, dollars and control of data.
Whatever the legitimacy of these claims, there certainly seems a growing market for people interested in privacy and objective searches — avoiding profiled search-results, a.k.a. 'filter bubbles.
Well it could be true that there's a growing market, and you'll definitely find people on Slashdot who are part of that market, but could we have some stats? Why does it "certainly" seem that the market is growing?
DuckDuckGo can sod off, in my opinion. My one experience with DDG results from their inclusion as the default search engine in Linux Mint. 1) Their search results are crap. 2) Trying to replace them with Google as the default search provider was CRAZY DIFFICULT. I don't want to hear about how hard it is to change default search providers to DDG, because changing back was a non-trivial task for me.
There is a market for a not-Google. Just like there is a market for a not-Facebook. But just like recent U.S. elections proved, being a "not-something" is not necessarily enough to gain market share. You have to be better, or at least perceived as being better. DDG is not, at least not in my experience, and whining in public is certainly not helping.
cej102937
What seems more likely:
1) He offered to buy duck.com from On2 Technologies (which was originally named The Duck Corporation), but they held out for more than he was willing to offer. It's an obviously valuable domain name so this doesn't require some kind of secret agreement with Google: maybe they just thought they could get more than he was offering for it.
2) Sometime later, Google bought On2 for their codec (VP8, on which WebM was based). Of course this means they got all their other assets too, like their old domain name. Typical Google practice is to redirect acquired domain names to google.com, or to a specific product page on google.com if relevant. Considering that Google is very interested in codecs, it seems rather unlikely that Google really bought On2 for the domain name.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
As the Whambulance drives past. P.S.: The win goes to the first poster who says that this is really Bing's fault for some undefined reason involving hatred of microsoft.
They didn't specifically purchase duck.com, though. They bought On2 Technologies, formerly known as The Duck Corporation, in order to acquire the VP8 codec, which became WebM, and got all the rest of On2's assets as part of the package. It seems unlikely that the real point of the purchase was to acquire duck.com, considering that VP8 is actually pretty important to them.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
Since when is attempting to suppress competition illegal? Every business in history does that.
DuckDuckGo is Bing without the social stigma of using a Microsoft product.
As the article states, duck.com was acquired when Google purchased On2 Technologies, previously known as The Duck Corporation. Duck made video codecs for Sega Saturn games, among others. On2 was finally acquired by Google for their VP8 video codec, which became part of the WebM video standard. No conspiracy here.
Since July 2, 1890. You shouldn't ask rhetorical questions that have actual answers.
That... would be better if were spelled out explicitly in the article or at least implicitly in the summary. Implicit in the article made it go right over my head this time.
DuckDuckGo has one major flaw: people with Anatidaephobia can't use the search engine..It is just impossible. I tried...
can possibly happen when developers are allowed to build search engines and analytic tools on top of Google's returned results (a search app store if you will).
If the status quo persists it is highly unlikely Google is going to ever see any competition in search. Given the fine tuning time and investment required to build an index of Google quality, I doubt anyone is ever going to seriously try.
and everyone wants it.
What this world is coming to - is for you and me to decide.
Here is a little historical perspective:
http://www.pcworld.com/article/245129/are_duckduckgos_bing_ties_a_problem_for_linux_mint_.html
The claims of this article no longer hold, but there was a time where the reliance upon Bing was a serious drawback for DuckDuckGo. It has since diversified the results across several search providers.
http://help.duckduckgo.com/customer/portal/articles/216399-sources
As a Mint user, one of the first things that I do is switch search engines. I consistantly go to Google for the power search options, such as shopping, images (by size), video, etc. When DuckDuckGo adds these capabilities, I will consider switching.
So you know. I use Google exclusively for my searches and I use Android for my phones and tablets. It might appear I'm just a big fat Google fanboy. I'm not. I know Google for what it is and I trust it only to that extent.
It disturbs me that Google would seek to interfere with other businesses. Privacy is a concern for many people and while I don't live in privacy paranoia land, I want to keep the border open so I can visit from time to time.
Some time back in Britain, a bank marketing genius decided that the way to get new customers was to get rid of the old charging model and offer "free" banking. It was such a brilliant wheeze that all the other banks had to follow suit. However, in order to make a profit, banks were then obliged to slap on a whole new range of exceptional and penal charges in the small print and to give their customers the hard sell for a bunch of other financial products that they didn't need (and for which the banks are now paying billions of pounds in compensation). Everyone is agreed that "free" banking is broken, but nobody can be the first to reinstate charges because their customers will all take a hike.
Search engines are the same. Having "free" search engines is a really crazy idea if you think the end user should have some interest in how the results should be selected and presented. But nobody is ever going to pay to use a search engine while the other(s) is/are still free, even if the results are worse.
So we're stuck with a model in which the selection and presentation of results must of commercial necessity be orchestrated for profit and the more people who see those results the more profit is made.
You can argue about the extent to which the orchestration is fair and transparent - and indeed whether fairness and transparency are adequate counterweights - but as long as someone else is paying the conductor you get no say in the performance.
This is why it is wise to withhold judgment until you can hear the other side's view.
That... would be better if were spelled out explicitly in the article or at least implicitly in the summary.
But where would be the fun? Gone...
Write boring code, not shiny code!
Except that when you realize DuckDuckGo is actually Bing in disguise, it regains the social stigma of using a Microsoft product. So you're back at square one.
This is why it is wise to withhold judgment until you can hear the other side's view.
No, that is why journalists should do their job properly and inform the public accurately and correctly. Lazy writing is to blame here.
Got them moderator blues I blieve I walk out the do', With these mod-points I been gettin', I 'most never post no mo'
Nope. You shouldn't be able to use one product to force people into using other of your products. Ikea beds and bedding, j'accuse....
Got them moderator blues I blieve I walk out the do', With these mod-points I been gettin', I 'most never post no mo'
Right-click the search entry field, select "Create search", enter keyword in the pop-up, Done.
(check the checkboxes in the pop-up if you want to make default (else it just add it into your list))
To search a word, just select it and right click, it offers to search both the default or select from your entire list.
Yet another reason why Opera is awesome :D
I am an ACCA student. Got a query on Accountancy/Finance? Maybe I can help!
Lazy writing is to blame here.
I'm sure the article authors were not just being lazy, but in fact knew all this perfectly well; and made a decision not to mention it since it contradicted the opinion they were trying to promote.
"Oops, I always forget the purpose of competition is to divide people into winners and losers." - Hobbes
How much are they willing to pay?
Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
As others have pointed out it's very easy to change the default search engine in Chrome. Naturally Google is going to have their own search engine as the default. They are giving us the browser for free and want to make some revenue from their search results. To maintain privacy in searches here is what I do:
1) Change the default search engine to DDG.
2) I use a desktop email client rather than the web client for Gmail. Why? Because as soon as you log into your Google account they start tracking your movements in the browser. The only time I log into Google in my browser is if I want to sync my bookmarks across computers. After the sync, I log off.
3) Think before you search. If the search is something you can't show to your mom then use DDG. I use Google search almost exclusively for work related stuff. Anything personal (medical related, personal finance related, etc.) I use DDG.
If anyone out there has tips I'd love to hear them.
Generally it's not illegal. However, if you have a monopoly there are more rules.
Google is fine here because Google's acquisition of duck.com didn't happen anywhere close to how the troll article is trying to make it seem.
I'm sorry, this is going to hurt. I'm gonna have to use some pliers to get that hook out of your throat.
It's not just Bing. They take results from a long list of engines, including their own crawler.
Never going to use a search engine called DuckDuckGo.
I haven't thought of anything clever to put here, but then again most of you haven't either.
If you're correct and DDG is Bing disguised, then that explains why the results of a search are almost invariably crap in it.
(PS as far as DDG being the search engine, it's damn near impossible to easily get Google as a search engine for Firefix in Mint. It's the default AND IT DAMN WELL DEMANDS IT!)
Duck.com was not specifically purchased to be anticompetetive. It was owned previously by On2, who used to be known as The Duck Corporation. Google purchased On2 for its V8 video codec to create WebM.
Unless someone is seriously going to stipulate the creation and push towards WebM was a deep seeded plot to mess with DuckDuckGo, this theory has no leg to stand on.
So why should they be the ones to get duck.com?
These sites are using Google's (and Bing's and others') results, collating them and presenting them to the users. Why exactly do they expect Google would play fair with that? It's not like Google specifically provides a service for third parties to reuse their search results. They're setting up an additional, unsupported layer between users and Google, and thus shouldn't be surprised that said layer requires frequent changes to work. Google won't stop and ask "we want to change this, that fine by you?" when they see no profit, no advantage from it.
I did the same thing, though mainly because I wanted out of the "search bubble" and was a bit worried about Google's tracking. In the end, I wound up going back to Google. Search results come up quicker, they tend to be of a little better quality, and one tool in particular is invaluable: the ability to specify a timeframe for the results.
If you can't convince them, convict them.
If you'd read the link inside post, you'd see that the citations were already there, and Google and DDG are both represented by quotes.
They're not lazy at all. Instead, the post was used to craft a reactive opinion based on only a few facts inside the referenced link so as to provoke a response. This is called: suckerbait, and many took it.
Should search engine choice be the same number of clicks? Perhaps. But what the article alludes to is that a preponderance of facts *appears* that Google is engaged in anti-competitive behavior. Whether that behavior is monopolistic or sufficiently injures the public so as to motivate FTC litigation is still unknown.
Is DDG crying empty tears? I think they have some legitimate beefs with Google. I believe that Google is anti-competitive, but I don't know whether they're sufficiently anti-competitive so as to necessitate action to control that behavior. A good fight is a good fight until someone's fighting "dirty".
---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
I started working at The Duck Corporation (duck.com) in 1996, a few years before it went public as On2 Technologies/The Duck Corporation (on2.com and duck.com), and was working with Google/Duck/On2 until a year and a few months after the acquisition in 2010. At Duck/On2, I was responsibile for everything related to building our networks and maintaining all the hardware, software, servers, domains, networks and a ton of other stuff, you know the typical system administrator job.
Prior to the acquisition, but after going public as On2, we likely didn't sell duck.com because that was still my primary email address and I and a few others still actively used it, and we still kept up a basic website for information about our old and basically no longer supported software; and it was just one of those things still tied to the company with a lot of history as The Duck Corporation, so we decided to keep it. Feel free to blame me, since I always requested that we keep it when we saw the many offers for the domain over the years, mostly in the hundreds to couple of thousand dollar range; and because of my history with the company, I am sure I was a big part of that decision to not sell it.
When Google bought us, I knew I was still going to be there for a while to make sure all our company data, and some specific services that had to stay up, was migrated into their servers. Since we hosted all our own servers with our own hardware and software and they had to ulimately be shut down, I had to get things moved over and still needed to get my duck.com email.
So at that point, since I was still getting a lot of duck.com emails and had my duck.com email address for literally many hundreds of websites, publications, mailing lists, business contacts and other things, since I mainly used duck.com for well over a decade, I wanted to make sure Google's DNS and email was configured to still get duck.com emails. I actually had started trying to switch all my duck.com to google.com, but it was an overwhelming process. I still wonder how much email is still going to my duck.com email address.
I took it upon myself to learn the Google way of configuring their public DNS, email and a bunch of other things because I was nosey and wanted to learn and did learn some really cool and interesting stuff about them while I was there. I made sure the MX record for duck.com was still configured to deliver my email (and a few other email addresses) to my Google email account. Since it was decided to no longer keep the website up, I can't give you a real explanation, but I ended up configuring duck.com websites to point to the google.com main page instead of nothing. So you can go ahead and blame me, but no one at Google specifically told me to point duck.com to their site.
Interestingly, that is fairly similar to the relationship between Bing and Google, as Bing uses "many methods" but part of that is cribbing off of Google results. Just Google "Bing using Google results". Or Bing it :)
How did the parent get modded up? DDG uses Google. It is meant for private searching. It has the option of using Bing.
Hi
I'm a 29 yo guy and I discovered DuckDuckGo 6 month ago, now it's my default search-engine and I love it.
It respect my privacy and is not dirty like Google.
FTC is already investigating Google for anti-competitive practice, but not on this front.
They are more concerned about organic results being squeezed out in favor of Google properties. Instead of being redirected to natural results, half the first page results are taken up by ads and Google shopping properties. FTC is not keen on this, and they will supposedly sue if they don't get an acceptable agreement in place.
witold.org
Reports on this went from "FTC likely to sue Google, people familiar with the matter say" to "FTC's head presses Google to resolve the antitrust dispute or face the charges, people familiar with the matter say" to "FTC doubts it has enough evidence of Google's anticompetetive behaviour, people familiar with the matter say".
Just type "ftc google" in any news search engine.
Considering current FTC head's retiring very soon, it all starts to look like a bluff to get money either from Google to put the case to rest quietly or from competitors to push on Google.
The duck.com thing seems untoward to me.
Android as a Google-centric OS... yeah, that's true, but it's their fricking OS so it's hard to blame them.
It's all about numbers, shares, dollars and control of data.
Don't forget technically legal (for the moment) tax evasion. I suppose that might be covered by dollars although expecting others to pay for the public infrastructure you us is hardly fair and could well be considered somewhat evil.
I'm annoyed how DuckDuckGo seems to try to market itself.
Rather than actually building a superior product, they seem to repeatedly try to get publicity by bashing Google.
There was their marketing campaign where
PS. Some filter bubbles are there for a good reason, like filtering away adult content. I actually wish I could have MORE filtering, but with better controls to tweak them. For example, ability to remove all references to some incompetent authors writings in the net, effectively removing their existence from my point of view. That'd be a kickass feature. DuckDuckGo, feel free to steal that idea, if you feel like doing a 180 degree change of course!
Takes 3 clicks on Chrome: 1 - Right click on the DuckDuckGo search bar 2 - Click "use as search engine" 3 - Click ok You're also asked to choose a search engine when you install it.
Playing fair?
With a name like DuckDuckGo, nobody can even take them seriously let alone worrying about playing fair.
Who would listen to a company called DuckDuckGo?
OK, other than that person who took DirtyPinkUnicornLoveNarwhallGooBear seriously last year ( and lived to regret it )...
The fact that DDG just isn't ready for prime time.
I love the idea, so much so that I made it my primary engine for the bar in Safari on my various machines (including PCs). But very simply, it didn't get the results I wanted. Too much spam. Lots of hits on pages that were Wiki scrapes, for instance.
I gave up and switched back to Google. Open to future tries, but it needs to improve a whole lot, IMHO.
Socialists have a twisted definition of "fairness" that is all about appeasing their political support base: loser moocher crybabies.
Google earned its market share - in search services, in browsers, in SaaS, and in everything else. In the 90s, Google came from far behind Yahoo (and a dozen search engines no one remembers today) and achieved their popularity on the basis of merit. It has been quite possibly the most innovative company on the planet, gaining favor with people in all sorts of contrived ways, including being the world's #1 supporter of FLOSS.
DDG needs to stop quacking to Mommy Government and actually earn its place in the search-boxes of the world, the way Google did. Let them compete on the merit of their search results and user goodwill. Let's see their Summer Of Code program! Let's see their Web browser that's just as innovative as Chrome...
But I'm not really blaming DDG for being tempted by litigation. Market entities just aren't in position to refuse these unfair advantages of government help - if they refuse while their competitors don't then they're screwed. It's the whole system that makes government interventionism possible that is the problem!
--libman
Why is duckduckgo's founder's school relevant enough to make the summary or article?
That's like saying "John Smith, a Bronx public school 267 graduate, recently climbed Mt. Everrst."
Sounds like a Google fanboy is spreading FUD again.
If duck.com points to their search engine he does still have a point that it causes brand confusion. If DDG is trademarked (I suspect it is), he can probably fight that. The question is, can he afford to fight it.
No, seriously, the hell is a "DuckDuckGo" ? Never heard of it.
I use DuckDuckGo. I am willing to admit that by storing my personal information, Google might give me better searches. But I am willing to accept non-personalized seaches in exchange for more privacy. Let me see just what anyone else would see; that's good enough for me.
Related issue, does anyone know of a (free?) e-mail service that does NOT store messages any longer than necessary?
Duck Duck Go!
/hint: July 2, 1890 is the date of the Sherman anti-trust act/
Just keep telling yourself that. DuckDuckGo is clearly Bing in reordered format, link for link, on the first page of search results.
Unless DuckDuckGo retains no logs whatsoever, tracking is still in progress and quite possible.
I'm not going to tell some to "duckduckgo" something.
Seriously stupid fucking name.
Be seeing you...
And biased towards far leftwing websites.
I don't need such kooky crap, when I search for things.
Startpage.com seems pretty neutral, while still private.
Google fanboy? Nah, just someone who has a lack of trust toward Microsoft.
And if by FUD you mean the fact that I called DDG "Bing in disguise," well, I stand corrected--I thought the site *did* use Bing for its search engine until another person replying brought up that it actually uses multiple engines.
No thanks to you for the correction, though.
Nice to know the morons known as Google have turned into the assholes known a Asshole (Apple).. Like no one saw this coming?