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Canonical To Ship Mir Display Server In Ubuntu 13.10

Posted by timothy on from the das-gefaellt-mir dept.

An anonymous reader writes "Canonical has announced today that they intend to ship the Mir Display Server by default in Ubuntu 13.10, rather than Ubuntu 14.04 as originally planned. They moved ahead their Mir adoption since the code is materializing and they want Mir/XMir widely tested prior to the Ubuntu 14.04 Long-Term Support release. Mir in Ubuntu 13.10 will be using the XMir X11 compatibility layer to run the Unity 7 desktop and there will be fallback support for running an X.Org Server if the graphics drivers don't support Mir."

122 comments

  1. Multi Monitors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Will this, at all, ease the ability to have multi-video card/multi-monitor support as one big display buffer?

    1. Re:Multi Monitors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Hard to say. As of now, the only multi-monitor mode working is mirroring.

    2. Re:Multi Monitors by AliasMarlowe · · Score: 3, Funny

      Hard to say. As of now, the only multi-monitor mode working is mirroring.

      Can we choose which axis the displays are mirrored around?
      Upside-down and left-to-right are so passé; a skewed mirroring axis would be better.

      --
      Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
  2. Unity... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I wish people would stop deciding to call their new software project/product "Unity". Too many things called that now.

    1. Re:Unity... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

      Especially wheb Canonical's goals are to fracture and cause disunity. It's very good newspeak.

    2. Re:Unity... by iggymanz · · Score: 0

      no worries, only poorly designed archaic rubbish ever gets the name, so it doesn't matter.

    3. Re:Unity... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Canonical going one way and EVERYONE ELSE going another is not disunity.

    4. Re:Unity... by Desler · · Score: 2

      It is the very definition disunity.

      From Merriam-Webster

      Unity: the quality and state of not being multiple: oneness.

      Disunity: lack of unity

    5. Re:Unity... by brickmack · · Score: 1

      As someone not keeping up with most of this stuff, in what way are they trying to cause disunity?

    6. Re: Unity... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is a display server called Wayland that has been in the works for a few years now. It supposed to replace X.org (not drop-in, though) because the X.org libraries are a mess. Ubuntu decided not to use Wayland becauae it didn't "meet their requirements" (even though it totally did, as one of the Wayland devs pointed out). Getting linux support (for X.org and Wayland) from Nvidia and ATI is hard enough as it is, now their is going to be another display server competing for support. The main reason people are so upset is because the reasons for Ubuntu not using Wayland are totally bogus.

    7. Re:Unity... by AdamWill · · Score: 1

      Clearly, we need a MetaUnity.

    8. Re:Unity... by davester666 · · Score: 1

      Didn't Alanis make a song about this?

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
  3. Exciting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    If everything was the same in every OS, things would be very boring.

    1. Re:Exciting by interval1066 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If everything was the same in every OS, things would be very boring.

      Say I have this screwdriver that I like very much, and I use it on every flat headed screw I find. Then say the manufacturer updates the screwdriver every year, but it keeps doing what I need it to do, plus they add neat stuff like comfort grip or head lights or whatever. Still screws screws though. Great. Love it. Then one day they decide to add a phillips adapter. Ok, does it still turn flatheads? Ok. I still love my screwdriver. THEN: they decide they want it to turn tri-screws, and if you want it to turn flatheads you have to engage a little catch on the end of the handle that's hard to see and extend the flathead attachment. What the hell??!??!?? Exciting? Certainly, the excitement poors from my head as I feverously read manuals and user forums trying to figure out how to get that flathead extended as I really still just need the driver to do what it always did. Infact, I almost never encounter triscrews, AT ALL.

      This is the current state of Ubuntu.

      --
      Python: 'And then suddenly you have a language which says "we're all stuck with whatever the whiniest coder wants".'
    2. Re:Exciting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's the good thing about FOSS, you have a perfectly usable option of not using Ubuntu. I don't, and I'm happy they're doing their development seperate of the distros I use.

    3. Re:Exciting by MBGMorden · · Score: 1

      And I'm sure he's not using it (or at least not Unity), but people by our nature express opinions about things we dislike. Its called feedback, and most (smart) companies welcome it.

      It'd be mighty hard to steer the direction of a project if no matter how good, bad, stupid, awesome, or radical a change you made, it was greeted with complete silence.

      --
      "People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
    4. Re:Exciting by killkillkill · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Maybe it's just time to update your screws. Flat head crews are a pain in the ass, you can't go fast without the screwdriver moving off center and having to stop and reposition.

    5. Re:Exciting by Dishevel · · Score: 1

      Maybe if you did not buy the new screwdriver that you do not like and just keep the one you do you might not be so sad.
      If that is to simple for you I am sure you can invent another way to be unhappy.

      --
      Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
    6. Re:Exciting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I don't understand your analogy. Can you re-word it to use cars?

    7. Re:Exciting by wizkid · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The problem is that security holes show up in the screws. one day, instead of holding secure, they get smooth and so they have to do a security update. If they kept the same flathead design, so you could use the same damned screwdriver, then replacing the screw wouldn't be a issue. So you end up not having a choice, you have to buy the new screwdriver.

      Of course I don't have that problem. I switched to mint screws. I can still use my flat screwdriver.

      --
      I take no responsibility for what I say. Even though I'm never wrong :)
    8. Re:Exciting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Amen.

    9. Re:Exciting by iggymanz · · Score: 1

      but Canonical only offers driver for left-handed 1/4" wood screw, that can't be used for sheet metal or anchoring or in machines. that's what Unity is for people who actually want to use more than one window at once.

    10. Re:Exciting by Dishevel · · Score: 1

      Then quit bitching about other people having choices.

      --
      Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
    11. Re:Exciting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      How so? The multi-window management in Ubuntu is much better than it was before Unity. The tiling is nice for laying out my monitors, I like that I can alt-` to switch windows quickly within the same application, and super-w gives a nice layout overview of all my windows. I couldn't do any of those things in GNOME 2.x.

    12. Re:Exciting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't understand your analogy. Can you re-word it to use cars?

      "Using Ubuntu is like screwing in a flathead screw with a minivan."

      Did I do it right? I'm new to these car analogy things.

    13. Re:Exciting by brickmack · · Score: 1

      I've never had trouble using multiple windows in Unity?

    14. Re:Exciting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's the good thing about FOSS, you have a perfectly usable option of not using Ubuntu.

      Yes, but being able to not use Ubuntu or to use Ubuntu without brain-damaged shit in it would be vastly better, no?

    15. Re:Exciting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If everything was the same in every OS, things would be very boring.

      Say I have this screwdriver that I like very much, and I use it on every flat headed screw I find. Then say the manufacturer updates the screwdriver every year, but it keeps doing what I need it to do, plus they add neat stuff like comfort grip or head lights or whatever. Still screws screws though. Great. Love it. Then one day they decide to add a phillips adapter. Ok, does it still turn flatheads? Ok. I still love my screwdriver. THEN: they decide they want it to turn tri-screws, and if you want it to turn flatheads you have to engage a little catch on the end of the handle that's hard to see and extend the flathead attachment. What the hell??!??!?? Exciting? Certainly, the excitement poors from my head as I feverously read manuals and user forums trying to figure out how to get that flathead extended as I really still just need the driver to do what it always did. Infact, I almost never encounter triscrews, AT ALL.

      This is the current state of Ubuntu.

      No the current state of Ubuntu would be that periodically the shaft would break when you tried to turn the screw and everytime they brought out a new screwdriver you might find it no longer worked with some of your screws but if you waited for the one after it might start again, but then stop with the one after that.

    16. Re:Exciting by Aaron+B+Lingwood · · Score: 3, Insightful

      --snip screwdriver analogy--

      Your analogy holds true only if both projects, being Wayland and Mir, are serving the same purpose - They aren't.

      Yes, they are both a display server/protocol, and yes, they are designed to replace X, but the goals of each project couldn't be more dissimilar.

      Wayland is a long needed update to X that will fix a number of issues and allows for secure buffers that only the application and server can access. Wayland is being designed for the existing Linux desktop market and is a much needed project.

      Mir, while adopting some ideas from Wayland, is a completely different beast that will focus on achieving two primary objectives: A display server that runs natively on both desktop and mobile, and, being actively developed and supported by new commercial partner Valve. It makes little sense for Canonical to wait for Wayland and then extend it for these two purposes as doing so will leave Canonical years behind on a shift that is happening NOW. Everyone has been waiting for the Year of Linux on the Desktop; this will bring the goal one step closer. The same goes for an unadulterated Linux on the Mobile where graphical applications are more easily ported from their desktop counterparts.

      There is nothing stopping Wayland importing code from Mir and vice versa. The projects simply have different priorities for the time being and are likely to co-exist or even possibly merge when the race is over.

      To borrow from your analogy: Canonical have found a reason to require a triscrew head. They believe it will work in more environments and also, with some effort, work on systems using a hex-screw. You are not locked in to using the triscrew and don't even have to change your screwdriver head should you not be involved in porting hex-screw to tri-screw or developing tri-screws for mobile devices.

      None of this affects you. These guys are building a treehouse entirely in their own backyard. You seem a little miffed simply because you know some guys that previously built a treehouse and they are renovating it. Nonsensical.

      --
      [Rent This Space]
    17. Re: Exciting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Using Ububtu is like being screwed by a van.

    18. Re:Exciting by bretzel · · Score: 0

      Qui a volé mon formage ? !!!

    19. Re:Exciting by neuro88 · · Score: 2

      Your analogy holds true only if both projects, being Wayland and Mir, are serving the same purpose - They aren't.

      Yes, they are both a display server/protocol, and yes, they are designed to replace X, but the goals of each project couldn't be more dissimilar.

      Wayland is a long needed update to X that will fix a number of issues and allows for secure buffers that only the application and server can access. Wayland is being designed for the existing Linux desktop market and is a much needed project.

      Mir, while adopting some ideas from Wayland, is a completely different beast that will focus on achieving two primary objectives: A display server that runs natively on both desktop and mobile, and, being actively developed and supported by new commercial partner Valve. It makes little sense for Canonical to wait for Wayland and then extend it for these two purposes as doing so will leave Canonical years behind on a shift that is happening NOW.

      Wayland is absolutely being developed with mobile and desktops in mind: From the official wayland site itself (http://wayland.freedesktop.org/): "Part of the Wayland project is also the Weston reference implementation of a Wayland compositor. Weston can run as an X client or under Linux KMS and ships with a few demo clients. The Weston compositor is a minimal and fast compositor and is suitable for many embedded and mobile use cases."

      And that's just the reference compositor.

      But there's more. Work to get Wayland running on android about a year before (april 2012) Canonical's Mir announcement : http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/wayland-devel/2012-April/003149.html

      In fact, while we're on the topic of Android, Canonical took someone else's code (libhybris) for running Wayland on Android drivers to achieve Mir support for android drivers. Here's an article about it from the author of libhybris: http://mer-project.blogspot.fi/2013/04/wayland-utilizing-android-gpu-drivers.html
      Quote from the article "Earlier this year however, I discovered that a well-known company had taken the code - disappeared underground with it for several months, improved upon it, utilized the capability in their advertisements and demos and in the end posted the code utilizing their own source control system, detached from any state of that of the upstream project's. Even to the extent some posters around the web thought libhybris was done by that company itself."

      Oh yeah, Canonical's criticisms of Wayland (ie, their stated reasons for creating their own display server instead of going with Wayland) were so awful that they had to retract them: http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTMxODY

      Regarding Valve's support... Citation please. Last I heard Valve was sticking with X and hadn't made any further comments. Unfortunately I'm unable to find a link to back this up at the moment. I *suspect* Valve is taking a wait and see approach, and they're probably silently hoping Wayland wins as Canonical has stated that Mir has no stable API/ABI, which would make it a nightmare for application developers to support. It's unclear if they'll stabilize the ABI/API in the future, but it's sounding like they won't. This is one of the major reasons why the major desktops don't want to support Mir.

      Everyone has been waiting for the Year of Linux on the Desktop; this will bring the goal one step closer. The same goes for an unadulterated Linux on the Mobile where graphical applications are more easily ported from their desktop counterparts.

      There is nothing stopping Wayland importing code from Mir and vice versa.

      Mir can use Wayland code as Wayland is under the extremely permissive MIT lice

    20. Re:Exciting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wayland is not an upgrade for X. It is a replacement. An incompatible replacement with less features designed for the non-networked world. How stupid is this?

  4. Pushed back, not forward by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    For 13.10 and even now for 14.04, they're running everything in XMir. They actually pushed native Mir/Unity 8 BACK to 14.10.

    1. Re:Pushed back, not forward by interval1066 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I've never faulted them for trying to upshelf X, infact I aplauded the effort, some parts of X are so crusty they've turned to stone. But in so doing they've made the os inconvienient. Inconvinience in a pair of trousers is one thing, inconvienience when there's money and customers on the line however? That's unforgivable.

      --
      Python: 'And then suddenly you have a language which says "we're all stuck with whatever the whiniest coder wants".'
  5. A bit late! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    Surely its a futile endeavour after http://science.slashdot.org/story/00/10/03/189218/mir-likely-to-be-deorbited-updated this

  6. And this is the reason I've decided to leave. by joelholdsworth · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Dear Ubuntu,

    I have had 6 happy years using you every day. You showed me so many things - the world of Linux I never knew. I will never forget the time we've shared.

    But you've you've changed. You're not the OS I once loved. I'm sorry to have to tell you this. I don't wish to hurt you. But I have to tell you the truth...

    I've switched to Mint.

    1. Re:And this is the reason I've decided to leave. by ron_ivi · · Score: 1, Informative
      Switched back to Debian myself.

      Ubuntu seems to have somehow turned Debian (which was stable, lightweight, flexible) into some bizzaro-world adware+bloat that only runs of a few computers.

    2. Re:And this is the reason I've decided to leave. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Will Mint NOT use Mir in the future since it's based on Ubuntu?

    3. Re:And this is the reason I've decided to leave. by Microlith · · Score: 1

      They don't use Unity, do they? There's no reason they couldn't modify the base install to use Wayland or Xorg in later releases. Especially considering they have a Debian-based version as well.

    4. Re:And this is the reason I've decided to leave. by Vanderhoth · · Score: 1

      I think Mint was a fork of Ubuntu 10 when because they were adding Unity to Ubuntu 11. I could be wrong, I switched to Mint 12 when Ubuntu 11 came out. But it would mean Mint is technically based off Ubuntu, but not the version of Ubuntu that's getting Mir.

    5. Re:And this is the reason I've decided to leave. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's always LMDE (Linux Mint Debian Edition).

    6. Re:And this is the reason I've decided to leave. by MBGMorden · · Score: 4, Informative

      No its still based on the current version of Ubuntu (except LMDE which is Debian-based). Remember than not even all the official versions of Ubuntu use Unity. Xubuntu for example "ships" with XFCE as the desktop and works quite well.

      --
      "People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
    7. Re:And this is the reason I've decided to leave. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ubuntu has changed so much that I no longer install it either. I still have older versions running on some machines, I think 10.04 is the most recent. All my new installs are Mint also.

    8. Re:And this is the reason I've decided to leave. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I started with the server version and just installed the handful of packages I cared about. Specifically the 'fallback' desktop package. :)

    9. Re:And this is the reason I've decided to leave. by 0123456 · · Score: 1

      Mint is mostly MATE (aka Gnome 2++) and Gnome 3. So I don't see any reason why they'd have to switch to Mir.

    10. Re:And this is the reason I've decided to leave. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm still using Ubuntu, but I'm happy that I have many other options I can switch to painlessly. I've considered Debian because it's the closest. I used to use Fedora and I'll never go back to anything using RPM, but maybe things have changed, I dunno.

    11. Re:And this is the reason I've decided to leave. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      dude, it's kind of necessary (and some would argue, less lame-ass) to use the rest of the release name. i.e. ubuntu 11.04. lest someone not know whether you mean 11.04 or 11.10 which are different releases seperated by months of work, despite the ever-present "11".

    12. Re:And this is the reason I've decided to leave. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You have changed to Ubuntu with a flashy paint job.

    13. Re:And this is the reason I've decided to leave. by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 1

      Dear Ubuntu,

      I have had 6 happy years using you every day. You showed me so many things - the world of Linux I never knew. I will never forget the time we've shared.

      But you've you've changed. You're not the OS I once loved. I'm sorry to have to tell you this. I don't wish to hurt you. But I have to tell you the truth...

      I've switched to Mint.

      So what will Mint use for its display server since it is basically built on top of Ubuntu?

    14. Re:And this is the reason I've decided to leave. by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 1

      I think Mint was a fork of Ubuntu 10 when because they were adding Unity to Ubuntu 11. I could be wrong, I switched to Mint 12 when Ubuntu 11 came out. But it would mean Mint is technically based off Ubuntu, but not the version of Ubuntu that's getting Mir.

      As long as Mint continues to use the current Ubuntu repositoriies, it is still based off the current version. There is no technically about it.

    15. Re:And this is the reason I've decided to leave. by Lunix+Nutcase · · Score: 1

      X11 since it doesn't and will never use Unity.

    16. Re:And this is the reason I've decided to leave. by UltraZelda64 · · Score: 1

      I've switched to Mint.

      LMFAO! Oh, wait, was that supposed to be serious? I mean, it's not like you're hurting Ubuntu by switching to one of the zillions of Ubuntu offshoots that lives, breathes and feeds off of Ubuntu...

      If you really want to make sure Canonical/Ubuntu get the point, switch to something that is not directly based on Ubuntu. Of course, they're like Microsoft and Apple in that they will do whatever the fuck they want anyway, but it can't hurt to take your OS "usage" counts elsewhere.

    17. Re:And this is the reason I've decided to leave. by interval1066 · · Score: 1

      LMFAO! Oh, wait, was that supposed to be serious? I mean, it's not like you're hurting Ubuntu...

      Well, can't speak for anyone else but I for one am not interested in revenge on Canonical. I'm not that activist. I just need to get some work done. Perhaps you just need to lighten up on the Jolt 'n Monster nrg drinks.

      --
      Python: 'And then suddenly you have a language which says "we're all stuck with whatever the whiniest coder wants".'
    18. Re:And this is the reason I've decided to leave. by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 1

      X11 since it doesn't and will never use Unity.

      But KDE and Gnome 3 are moving to Wayland and Mint's interface is built on top of Gnome 3.

    19. Re:And this is the reason I've decided to leave. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      While you're wrestling with Mint, Xorg and that god-awful buggy and slow Cinnamon, I'll being enjoying snappy Mir on Ubuntu, with full access to Steam and the Ubuntu Software Centre.

      I'd like to see you get all that working on Linux Mint.

    20. Re:And this is the reason I've decided to leave. by Lunix+Nutcase · · Score: 1

      Neither of those are dropping X11. And if they did clearly Mint will go Wayland.

    21. Re:And this is the reason I've decided to leave. by tomofumi · · Score: 1

      You are sure it is 'snappy'? I bet 13.10 would be buggy as hell, and breaks lots of compatibility. They want the world become their beta tester before LTS.

    22. Re:And this is the reason I've decided to leave. by squiggleslash · · Score: 1

      I think if what he wants is a supported operating system that's as close as possible to Ubuntu as it is now but without the newer changes he dislikes, switching to something that isn't remotely related to Ubuntu isn't going to help him. That'd be like a Windows 7 user switching to Mac OS X because he doesn't like Windows 8.

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    23. Re:And this is the reason I've decided to leave. by UltraZelda64 · · Score: 1

      I think if what he wants is a supported operating system that's as close as possible to Ubuntu as it is now but without the newer changes he dislikes, switching to something that isn't remotely related to Ubuntu isn't going to help him.

      Maybe, maybe not--actually trying something else, he might surprise himself. Ubuntu got popular by word of mouth... same with Mint, undoubtedly because of its Ubuntu base. Think for yourself, actually give different distros a test drive, and then he can come to a conclusion as to whether Mint is truly "the" distribution for him. But I definitely see some humor in the way he was writing about Canonical/Ubuntu, and then the fact that he switches to effectively the same exact thing... just different maintainers and package selection. I really don't even know if he was being serious or not.

    24. Re:And this is the reason I've decided to leave. by squiggleslash · · Score: 1

      Well, many of us did try various distros and in the end switched to Ubuntu because it was really the only one that "Just worked".

      Now it's possible that's changed and Slackware or Fedora or Debian "just work" but I'm not getting that feel from what I'm reading of any of these distros. I'm still hearing the same moans about stuff that isn't quite integrated. The tragedy with Ubuntu is that it's slipped and is heading towards the lack of quality we saw with distros five years ago.

      In any case, the point is that Ubuntu works the way we want. So our first choice is always going to be something that works the way Ubuntu did until it started to get annoying.

      BTW my other problem with the OR (original reply) was that it assumed that we want to punish Canonical for daring fail us, and that's why we wanted to switch, to send some kind of message.

      But I don't want to. Actually I hate the idea of treating Canonical in that way, I'm reluctant to switch to Mint, and if there was a GCUbuntu (like Kubuntu or Xubuntu, but with the new Gnome Classic system) I'd probably jump on that instead - leaving aside the ease issues of switching to such a branch.

      Why? First, because Canonical did such a great job in the beginning anyway. For a time, we genuinely had a platform that was close to being as usable as the most usable platform (Mac OS X) while having the flexibility, power, and support of the most popular platform (Windows). And Canonical has been a victim here not of hubris but of a lack of it. It wanted to do better.

      I like the fact it wanted to, and I like the fact they tried. I think Unity brings great ideas to the table, the problem is it doesn't, ultimately, work. It's not a good system. The Mir/Wayland fiasco is another example, not just of Ubuntu but of the community as a whole, that sees problems with X11 and wants to do better, but again I just don't see how it's better - impossible to measure in the real world benchmarks do not a better display platform make.

      I think there's a call for GCUbuntu, and I hope it's heard. And if I do switch to Mint I'll be doing so reluctantly, hoping that Canonical can get things right over time.

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
  7. Thanks for the warning! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Note to self: Do not upgrade to 13.10, because pretty much everything display and interface related will be horribly broken.

    Thanks for the warning Canonical! I genuinely appreciate it!

    1. Re:Thanks for the warning! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      people that use the software should know by now that the releases in-between LTS releases are test versions..

      LTS -> alpha of new features -> beta of new features -> rc of new features/alpha of disruptive last minute changes -> LTS+1

      and that you should never install a new release right away, wait for the inevitable show-stopper bug(s) that was missed to get fixed, first... all hail the point release.

    2. Re:Thanks for the warning! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I haven't noticed LTS releases being any better than the rest.
      Like 8.04 LTS, when they switched to PulseAudio, which turned out to be a crashing, resource hogging, latency adding POS (even more so than it is today.)

    3. Re:Thanks for the warning! by Zaiff+Urgulbunger · · Score: 1

      I'm running 12.04LTS and it's *very* flaky! I was hoping it would stabilise, but it's becoming clear that once a release is out the door, LTS or not, it pretty much gets forgotten for the next-great-thing(TM) that Canonical are playing with.

      Each Ubuntu has always been been a bit two-steps-forward, one-step-back, but I can't help thinking that 10.10 or so was the last one where I felt I was running something better than the previous release.

      And I'm not complaining about Unity - I actually quite like having a launcher on the left and integrated menus on a laptop as it makes better use of the screen. On a desktop I can live with it. But software stability is now lower, and I doubt Mir is going to be stable for a few years yet, and I'm tired of being part of Canonical's experiment.

      If Xubuntu avoids Mir, then I might use that, but otherwise I'll have to switch to Mint or even Debian.

  8. I kindly disagree by stanlyb · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    The problem is not that the complex code is "bad", but that there are many stupid developers using pretty much complex libraries and modules, and don't forget the copy/paste methodology, and the result is something that is "somehow" working, and extremely complex and hard to read. Well written and maintained code is always pleasure to read, no matter its complexity or the used libraries.
    One more thing, give an idiot a hammer, and every problem he face would look to him like a nail.

    1. Re:I kindly disagree by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Wrong article ;) You must be using unity.

    2. Re:I kindly disagree by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      FAIL!

  9. name says it all by iggymanz · · Score: 0

    name your server after something that came apart, burned up, and came to watery grave.

    making yet another display server on which much superior desktops (i.e. not Unity) will be second class citizens and require a mountain of effort to maintain, will be a failure.

  10. Compatibility layer for your Desktop Enivornment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Switching to another Desktop Environment before adapting your Desktop? This just sounds like a bad idea all around.

    If your goal is to make Unity run faster, why would you switch to something that requires a compatibility layer? Heck Ubuntu, why not just write it for windows, and run the DE in WINE?

  11. Re: The democrats are in the business of destroyin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As a democrat, all that I can say is that they're coming after you next.

  12. Don't support leeches by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Gotta love leeches like Canonical. 99% of Ubuntu is other people's work but be damned if they can give back or work with others rather than walling off their garden.

    1. Re:Don't support leeches by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      they tried, but crazy bastards in chem suits kept running around in the garden spraying pesticide and herbicide and screaming about leaches! :)

    2. Re:Don't support leeches by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Since when have they closed off their code? AFAICT, Mir is and everything they provide are still under Free software licenses. In what way have they walled anything off?

  13. Re:Compatibility layer for your Desktop Enivornmen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    because Mir will break wine as well :P

  14. Anyone well versed with the new graphics stack? by yathaid · · Score: 1

    I haven't kept my eye on every twist and turn in this story.
    My mental model of the stack pre all these Mir, Wayland shenanigans was this -
    applications
    window manager
    X
    kernel

    I guess a couple of layers have been added now? Wayland seems to be a replacement for X that removes the X part from the stack compressing window manager and display server into one layer, so where does Mir sit?

    1. Re:Anyone well versed with the new graphics stack? by iggymanz · · Score: 1

      Mir alternative to Wayland. also you could put "graphics driver" next to kernel, just because it's an important piece we often have to select/configure and it sometimes makes trouble. seems "desktop" over the "window manager" might be for same reason something to add to list.

    2. Re:Anyone well versed with the new graphics stack? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      What we really need is something like a common protocol that can talk to all these different display systems.

      It could then be supported by multiple OSes (even ones which don't have their own graphics card or drivers). Heck, we could even have it use simple TCP sockets and make it a bit higher level so it didn't just push pixels all the time -- then it would be really usable over a LAN, pretty clever huh?

      Oh yes.

    3. Re:Anyone well versed with the new graphics stack? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're right, RDP is a better option!

  15. Why is this such a big deal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I don't get why people are so upset about this. As a Linux user I really could care less which X-server I'm using. As long as it works, why do people care if its X, Mir or anything else?

    1. Re:Why is this such a big deal? by PPH · · Score: 1

      Right. As long as it is network-aware I'm fine with it.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    2. Re:Why is this such a big deal? by 0123456 · · Score: 1

      'Cause when you try to run that graphical program from your Ubuntu server and display the output on Windows, it doesn't work because they've invented Yet Another Graphics System that's incompatible with everything else.

      The beauty of X was that you knew an app on SGI Unix would display on OS/2, SunOS, VMS or anything else that supported X in the OS or third-party addons because they all used the same protocol. You still know an X11 app on Ubuntu will display on Windows so long as it doesn't do video playback or other kinds of special cases which are just too damn slow over a LAN.

      Tomorrow, who knows what will talk to what?

    3. Re:Why is this such a big deal? by Anne+Thwacks · · Score: 1
      As long as it works

      What is at stake here is the definition of "works". Canonical shipped Unity - which gave users the impression that their definition of "works" does not include "able to carry out the user's most basic tasks", or "shipped with a viable way to avoid the use of an untested and serverely restricted UI".

      In short, given their track record. "works" is unlikely to be the average user's experience of Mir.

      --
      Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
    4. Re:Why is this such a big deal? by jandrese · · Score: 3, Informative

      I installed Ubuntu 13.04 last night, because I wanted to run Steam games on Linux and it was their recommended system. First lesson: Clicking the "use the internet to install the most up to date code" is a mistake that causes the installer to stall for many minutes while it does downloads in the background.

      Second Lesson: The disk partitioner seems exceedingly bare bones. I installed a new hard drive to do the install on, but the installer really really wanted to blow away my windows disk. I had to do the partitioning by hand (no "automatically lay out something sensible on this disk" option that I could find). This wasn't a hurdle for me, but it seemed pretty unfriendly for new people.

      Third Lesson: The user manager is woefully bad. If you want to specify the UID for a user (so they match your other systems and make NFS work so much better), well, you can't. There's no option for that. The password requirements also seem rather steep (16 characters mixed case with punctuation no repeats no dictionary words can't be changed in any gui anywhere?)

      Fourth Lesson: the default package manager is now an Apple app store ripoff?!? Ok, the UI is annoying, but at least I can just search for a package like the nfs client and get it right? No. It's back to the command line for you for some apt-get if you want to install a normal package.

      Fifth Lesson: Software manager has a kind of hidden option to use the nVidia binary blob drivers so you get decent 3D performance. Doing so breaks compositing which breaks the entire desktop. 3D games run great though! Compositing seems kind of dumb anyway, and the weird search box that wanted to find Amazon products that are similar to "xterm" is something I could do without anyway. I'm just going to install Windowmaker instead once I figure out how to change the damn window manager preferences.

      I thought Ubuntu was supposed to be the more polished distribution? Why is everything so hard or annoying in it? I guess the partial answer is Gnome 3, but even that doesn't explain everything. Man that control panel is missing about a million basic features though.

      --

      I read the internet for the articles.
    5. Re:Why is this such a big deal? by broken_chaos · · Score: 2

      As a Linux user I really could care less which X-server I'm using.

      Mir isn't an X server. It has an X compatibility layer (XMir) which can be used to run an X server alongside Mir, but it's not an X server in itself.

      Generally the complaints are that it's brand new (announced only a few months ago), will likely be very prone to breaking (at least for the first year or two), still requires an X server to be running to run X applications, and is trying to do something that Wayland is also trying to do (but has been trying to do for several years longer). Basically, it's a rather extreme case of NIH (not invented here), which is trying to be pushed out in a state that it's probably not ready to be used seriously.

      The irony, which hasn't escaped the developers involved, is that it's the same situation as systemd, except reversed. This time it's Ubuntu (Mir) trying to replace something started by Fedora (Wayland), rather than Fedora (systemd) trying to replace something started by Ubuntu (upstart).

    6. Re:Why is this such a big deal? by nadaou · · Score: 1

      You can find the real "Synaptic" package manager in there somewhere.
      (I was going to say in the System menu, but they seem to have misplaced it...)

      `apt-get install xubuntu-desktop` helps too.

      --
      ~.~
      I'm a peripheral visionary.
    7. Re:Why is this such a big deal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ubuntu was really good a few years back. They even had a campaign to remove all minor annoying usability issues "paper cuts". Then suddenly, all went downhill. The repeatedly broke everything, designed a horrible GUI, removed many features, started spying on you, etc.. I would not recommend it to anyone anymore.

    8. Re:Why is this such a big deal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I installed 13.04 last week. It was a breeze. No issues.
      Seems like people have different idea about ease of installation.

    9. Re:Why is this such a big deal? by Parker+Lewis · · Score: 1

      First Lesson: try Kubuntu (real package manager, fast and solid desktop) :D And seriously: any modern OS will require a ton of updates in the first install.

    10. Re:Why is this such a big deal? by jandrese · · Score: 1

      Synaptic is not installed by default, you have to go down to the command line to install it it seems.

      --

      I read the internet for the articles.
    11. Re:Why is this such a big deal? by Wdomburg · · Score: 1

      While systemd takes a drastically different approach to initialization than upstart, the similarities between mir and wayland far outweigh their differences, and most of the stated reasons for not adopting wayland seem based on misunderstanding rather than significant issues with the architecture.

      Perhaps mir will be a winning move for Canonical. Perhaps it will even be adopted outside Ubuntu. I wouldn't bet on it.

    12. Re:Why is this such a big deal? by squiggleslash · · Score: 1

      Neither Mir nor Wayland are X servers, though they do provide an add-on X server as a shim to allow "legacy" apps to run. And before anyone complains "What's the difference", it's the same as the difference between Windows 7, and Ubuntu (which provides Wine as a shim to allow "legacy" apps to run...)

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
  16. Well... ALMOST by SmallFurryCreature · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The REAL story is that your flathead Ubuntu was JUST about starting to approach a state reliable usability when they released the mother off all alpha state overhauls. They did it before with the move away from config files to the registry and nautilus. With each change we went from a system we had finally managed to get working to a system that wasn't working as we wanted AND had tons of bugs too.

    It ISN'T like releasing a new screw driver THAT WORKS, it is like releasing a new screw driver that stabs you in the back and does unsanitary things with your hammer. If Ubuntu was a car, it would come with 50% new philps head screws that break off, have rusted or been installed the wrong way around through use of your semen covered hammer, 25% flathead screws that are no longer compatible with your old flathead screw and the new flathead screw isn't being developed anymore because it is going to be replaced, somewhere in 2023 and 25% of the screws have been left out because their use case is to obscure.

    Most Linux users I know aren't all that into cutting edge. Most of really just want a desktop that runs programs and then we use the programs and never ever think about the desktop again. The desktop isn't a screwdriver, it is the packaging for the belt for toolbox you never put your screwdriver and anyway, you never ever move the toolbox.

    I have all the applications I need open all the time. I do not NEED a launcher and I most certainly never EVER need to search something and then find both results from logs files, my "art" collection and amazon at the same time. I just want my desktop to provide the most basic services like paste and copy and then to GO AWAY!

    And I do NOT need a build in mail client, music player or whatever. I can fucking pick my own. MAYBE, JUST MAYBE, if you made the desktop 100% reliable, safe and fast THEN you could spend your time adding crap as optional crap I would never bother with. Unity could have been a skin (nobody would have used it but hey though titties). But Ubuntu/Gnome/KDE seem to insist that anytime their products achieve "almost works" they MUST redesign.

    I am a developer, I understand the desire to not continue to work on the same old same old, that doing that last 10% of making something really work takes 90% of the time and that that time sucks donkey balls. But that is life.

    All Unity and Gnome3 and KDE have shown is that it doesn't take Ballmer and closed source to give the user what they don't want. Good job! You can compete with MS and release as big a turds as them.

    And at least Windows 8.1 is adding the start button again.

    Aaaah, that felt good.

    --

    MMO Quests are like orgasms:

    You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.

    1. Re:Well... ALMOST by yoda-dono · · Score: 1

      Title actually applies to your post. Well... almost: Windows 8.1 may be adding a "Start Button" but not the "Start Menu", which is what people were actually asking for. All they're doing is giving you something visual to click on to get to that Metro Start Splash Page Thingy, instead of having to know to mysteriously mouse off the screen in the bottom left and click. Past that, you have a reasonable point.

    2. Re:Well... ALMOST by Domini · · Score: 1

      Could not have said it better. In Ubuntu I start up 3 programs max. Chrome, VMWare Player and Terminal.
      In VMWare Player I only start up a single _desktop_ app... ever... which is why Windows 8 is so annoying.
      It is better now with Classic fallback, but even that does too much.

      On Mac I start up a few more, but don't use ANY of the mac provided apps. No iPhoto, Finder, Safari, Address Book, Mail, Messages, etc. I basically only use it because of iOS development (and the pretty hardware does not hurt).

      PS: Someone suggested I look at : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CrunchBang_Linux

    3. Re:Well... ALMOST by buchner.johannes · · Score: 1

      All Unity and Gnome3 and KDE have shown is that it doesn't take Ballmer and closed source to give the user what they don't want. Good job! You can compete with MS and release as big a turds as them.

      I still think the fault lies with distros. They should have not forced the update, and allowed users the choice to stick with older, stable UIs. It is ok for DEs to make poor, incomplete releases. It is not ok for distros to take every release as an update no matter what the prize. They need to learn that cutting edge is not a thing every distro should do, and that testing might be a good idea.

      Redhat understands that -- cutting edge technology in one distro for testing, good releases for customers in another. Gentoo allows KDE3/4 along side, and there is a gnome3/gnome2 choice you can downgrade from again.

      --
      NB: The message above might reflect my opinion right now, but not necessarily tomorrow or next year.
    4. Re:Well... ALMOST by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      MAYBE it would be PRUDENT to make sure you EMPHASISE RANDOM WORDS in your post for added EMOTION!!

    5. Re:Well... ALMOST by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No one is forcing you to upgrade to the latest and greatest DE.
      Take for instance Trinity (KDE 3) or MATE.
      And then you have a plethora of other desktop environments that aren't Gnome, Unity or KDE.

      But seeing as you're a developer and know what there is to know about Linux, even though you knew all of this and it has all been said before, you had to say it again anyway.

    6. Re:Well... ALMOST by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you guys lined up for the METHADONE PROGRAM or FOOD STAMPS??

    7. Re:Well... ALMOST by AdamWill · · Score: 1

      "They did it before with the move away from config files to the registry and nautilus."

      The hell are you gibbering about?

  17. I want it, I want it, I want it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is any RC available. I love you Ubuntu. Will this work with my i915 graphics card.
    People I'm so happy. I've seen preview of Wayland and everything was circling around in X,Y,Z

    People !!! You have no idea, what is coming.
    It's revolutionary!!!!!!!!!!!!

    1. Re:I want it, I want it, I want it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-gnome/releases/saucy/alpha-1/

  18. Is there a Mir client for X11? by Marrow · · Score: 1

    Something that pops up a window in X11 that displays graphics using Mir protocol transactions? Maybe Mir is 10 times better to develop for than X11. What are
    the development libraries like? And how are people going to know when its "safe" to develop for Mir and abandon X11?

    1. Re:Is there a Mir client for X11? by Marrow · · Score: 1

      What about fonts. What about 3d. What about sound? I am curious if they really want to replace X11 with something better. What about "vnc" behavior. I mean, I hope this is to support more than "user switching" on the desktop.

    2. Re:Is there a Mir client for X11? by Microlith · · Score: 1

      Go look at Wayland for something that has more explanation behind it.

      In general, both Wayland and Mir solve stupid X11 problems like fonts, 3D, and sound because there's no good reason for your display manager to care about those.

  19. Lack of binary driver support == MIR sucks by goruka · · Score: 1

    I'm all for open drivers like Noveau or the efforts by Intel and AMD, they are fantastic and very much needed. It almost makes me glad that GLES 2.0 is pretty much almost there.
    But for those of us who do 3D programming, 3D modelling or just play games on steam that requiere 3D, the only option is the binary ones. If Ubuntu (because of MIR) takes away support for them, I'll be taking Ubuntu away from my computer.

    1. Re:Lack of binary driver support == MIR sucks by Microlith · · Score: 1

      I imagine Canonical is hoping to undermine Wayland by getting Nvidia to provide binary drives only for Mir.

    2. Re:Lack of binary driver support == MIR sucks by Lunix+Nutcase · · Score: 1

      If Nvidia had no plans to support Wayland (which has many more people behind it than Mir does) why would they support Mir that will only work with Ubuntu?

    3. Re:Lack of binary driver support == MIR sucks by raxx7 · · Score: 1

      Canonical may hope, but it's naive.
      NVIDIA provides binary drivers for Linux for over a decade because it actually has paying customers, running (often expensive) 3D (and now GPGPU) applications on (often expensive) NVIDIA hardware.
      Ie, the Oak Ridge National Laboratory has the world's 2nd most powerfull supercomputers. It has hundreds of NVIDIA K20 cards and it runs Linux.

      And those customers tend to run RHEL or a clone or SUSE, because those are the supported platforms.

    4. Re:Lack of binary driver support == MIR sucks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If Nvidia had no plans to support Wayland (which has many more people behind it than Mir does) why would they support Mir that will only work with Ubuntu?

      Because they do NOT want to have the Valve userbase rushing to stores to buy ATI/AMD GPUs.

  20. ZZzzzzz... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Everyone who grew up and started using a real distribution read the headline as "Irrelevant to ship Mir (More IRelevant) in irrelevant 13.10"

  21. Re: The democrats are in the business of destroyin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You'll find me outside, lighting it on fire; my guns are already loaded.

  22. Re:Compatibility layer for your Desktop Enivornmen by tywjohn · · Score: 1

    You clearly have no idea what you're talking about. Canonical is building Mir to replace X so that it can be used in it's mobile devices. They are not putting effort into Wayland because it is licensed as MIT where Mir will be GPLv3. This is to safeguard Ubuntu mobile devices. XMir is required just as XWayland is required to bridge the transition gap. I'm not advocating Mir in any way but facts are facts.

  23. Sticking with X by ButchDeLoria · · Score: 1

    Call me a stubborn shit, but for the foreseeable future I will continue to use X Server. From what I have heard, there is no 'ssh +X' functionality in either Wayland or Mir.

  24. So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...Unity 7? Does that replace Ubuntu Vista?

  25. KDE? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why is KDE not supported? I assume there is a technical issue, but it could be political. Kubuntu was dropped so I guess... LinuxMint FTW!

  26. Re:Compatibility layer for your Desktop Enivornmen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Still doesn't answer the question why they're shipping a display server their desktop environment (Unity) doesn't run on natively yet....