Slashdot Mirror
Live Q&A With Outercurve Foundation President Jim Jagielski
Jim Jagielski is one of the co-founders of the Apache Software Foundation, a director of the Open Source Initiative (OSI), new President of the Outercurve Foundation, and as we mentioned yesterday, your interview subject for the next two hours. Mr. Jagielski will be answering your questions below until 2:00 ET (18:00 GMT). Please keep it to one question per post so everyone gets a chance.
Update: 2pm ET has come and gone. Mr. Jagielski might stick around for a bit and answer questions later so make sure to check back. A big thanks to him for his time and answers! Here's a link to his user page where you can read all his responses.
Update: 2pm ET has come and gone. Mr. Jagielski might stick around for a bit and answer questions later so make sure to check back. A big thanks to him for his time and answers! Here's a link to his user page where you can read all his responses.
What are your thoughts on the software patent ban New Zealand just passed?
Some people die at 25 and aren't buried until 75. -Benjamin Franklin
The average Slashdotter is stupid enough to think they are smarter than average. Do you agree?
Outercurve was founded by but supposedly separate from Microsoft. But most of your projects are Office and Visual Studio plugins, Windows applications and .Net. How separate can you be?
Are there any plans to ever revive the Apache Harmony project (Open Source Java Platform), or is it dead forever?
What's your biggest project right now, and is it Windows related?
Hi. The .net product manager at Oracle recently responded to a request to have the Oracle .net provider put into a NuGet package by refusing over licensing reasons: https://forums.oracle.com/message/11149050#11149050
It's not the legal concerns around downloaders. It's the legal rights around how uploaded software is treated.
-----------------
https://www.nuget.org/policies/Terms
User Submissions.
Outercurve does not want to receive confidential or proprietary information from User through the Web site. Any material, information, or other communication User transmits or posts ("Communications") to the Web site will be considered non-confidential and non-proprietary and Outercurve will be under no obligation of any kind with respect to such information. Outercurve will be free to reproduce, make derivative works from, use, disclose, and distribute the Communications to others without limitation. At our sole election, Outercurve may provide authorship attribution by listing User's name.
-----------------
As soon as I upload something to the Outercurve Foundation (via nuget.org), I've given them plenary rights to the software. That's a big problem for most commercial software distributions, including ODP.NET.
If you're an open source vendor, then this policy is fine. If Outercurve wants to distribute commercial software, it cannot co-opt ownership rights. This is the biggest issue, but there are others. For example, how can Oracle ensure that no one else on the site represents themselves as Oracle? There's no way to authenticate the "author", especially if you're downloading directly within Visual Studio.
Fundamentally, all these business issues can be boiled down to characteristics of open source (i.e. bazaar, torrents) distribution. If Outercurve introduced closed source/commercial-friendly (i.e. cathedral, iTunes) distribution, it would eliminate pretty much all of Oracle's business/legal concerns. But Outercurve is devoted to working with corporate developers in open source environments. If the component is closed source, then it doesn't fit within Outercurve's mission. That makes me skeptical they would ever support commercial distribution.
Essentially, Oracle would need to open source ODP.NET just for nuget.org distribution. That is like putting the cart before the horse.
Now, if somebody created a commercial software NuGet distribution channel, people could purchase, rent, or try out commercial software from it. That would be something Oracle would consider. That's why I asked about an alternative popular NuGet feed.
Since Outercurve is specifically mentioned here, do you have any comment on this? Is there plans to fix the situation for freely available (but commercial) tools like the Oracle provider?
Thanks.
-- "So they told me that using the download page to download something was not something they anticipated." - Bill Gates
As a former Slashdot editor, what are your thoughts on the current state of this site, as compared to in the past? Were there true "glory days" compared to today, or is that simply grass-is-greener nostalgia? Do you have any comments or suggestions for the current editing team?
Everything is better with chainsaws.
How tough is it to consign a project to the Attic?
Why is Theo de Raadt so grumpy? NN
If you care about software freedom, why doesn't your organization promote copyleft type licenses like the GPL?
Sadly, the apache license doesn't require others to release the code, and helps proprietary projects.
âoeMr. Burns, Your Campaign Seems To Have the Momentum of a Runaway Freight Train. Why Are You So Popular?â
"...In your answer, ignore facts. Just go with what feels true..."
The OuterCurve Foundation mission statement says the Foundation "has no pre-suppositions about particular projects, platforms, or open source licenses." But are there some specific projects that you, personally, would like to work with? Projects you think would benefit the open source community greatly by what you do?
Is Hadoop going to take over the world? Or, I guess an appropriately in-scope question is, do you plan for Hadoop to take over the world? And if so, what happens when it is so aggressively co-opted by private companies that it becomes too difficult to maintain as an actual open platform (ahem Android)?
Why do we need another foundation. Couldn't our time and money be better spent focusing on what is already out there?
Yesterday there were two stories on Slashdot that made ASF seem like it lost its way. I was surprised that nobody who was mentored through the ASF (as I was) has responded. How do you feel that ASF is when it comes to enriching the open-source developer community through its multiple mentorship programs?
Why did you sell out? M$ has harmed OSS more than any other opponents combined and still continues to do so today. You come from the Apache Foundation and the OSI, so what made you change sides and turn against OSS?
Actually, they do have a GPL project.
What are your thoughts on Steve Ballmer's decision to step down as CEO of Microsoft? Will it have any effect on the Foundation?
For developers of small open-source projects, how to Outercurve and the ASF differ? What are the strengths of Outercurve that would compel developers to use Outercurve over other foundations like ASF, Eclipse.org, or Github?
why's an honest question down moderated, almost instantly?
The whole DNT issue is now over and done...
It looks like you have a lot going on already, what made you decide to take on the president job?
It seems most of your efforts these days are focused on organization and leadership. I was wondering: do you still have a chance to write code? Is it something you still enjoy?
Evah rever on.
"The whole DNT issue is now over and done..." - by jimjag (68949) on Wednesday August 28, 2013 @12:52PM (#44697775)
Per my subject: It doesn't harm me Apache doesn't honor DNT (helps folks like myself actually, as I said, who do apps like mine is all).
I.E.-> When webservers don't "take up the slack"? It "opens doors" for apps like mine (or, moreso). I 'gain' (even though it's a freeware).
I was just curious as to "motivations" (money talks, trust me, I understand THAT like anyone else making a living who isn't a "trust-fund baby" etc.) as to the WHY of why Apache didn't honor DNT.
* My guess is that it's money talking (monetized web & all) - must've been a tough decision.
APK
P.S.=> I don't blame you that either - & I hope you enjoy my "attempt" @ speaking Polish (with a name like yours, you MUST be Polish I guess (Jagellonian Kings had similar names iirc, hence my guess on that account): Thanks for answering/dzienkuje... apk
Microsoft doesn't have the best record when it comes to open source, in fact it's terrible. What made you want to work for one of their projects?
What efforts would *you* like to see Outercurve (or whoever) take on to benefit the FLOSS community??
I know it was before your watch but why the name change? What was wrong with CodePlex?
Uh oh. He's onto us.
Title says it all.
But GNU Classpath does exist, and the GNU Compiler Collection (GCC) comes with the GNU Compiler for the Java programming language. And then there is the IcedTea project, based on OpenJDK. So other free software projects do seem to exist. Of course they use the GPL (or a variant with exceptions like OpenJDK). So isn't it just that Apache is prevented but not GNU?
The ASF got a lot of critizism for accepting the OpenOffice fork when Oracle abandoned the project and dumbed it on Apache while the community was organized around LibreOffice at the Document Foundation. Would Outercurve have handled that situation similarly or would they have tried to work with the TDF to transfer the rights to the community?
What are your thought on Microsoft's shared source
"I think what's cool is that whatever organizational and leadership stuff I do, or am known for, arose from my actual coding efforts. It was all kind of "placed" on me, instead of me trying to grab it. And I am hardly unique in that regards. I love how open source does that, that the experts are those who walk-the-walk and talk-the-talk and not just talking heads." -
I've been in & around the art & science of computing since 1982 (1994 onwards professionally as both a software engineer & network admin): See subject-line - there's NOT ENOUGH of that which YOU speak of "going around" & it makes for BAD DECISIONS when the head doesn't KNOW what the ass is doing (or, how it does it, or who wants it)!
E.G. #1 (hate to say it almost, huge MS fan here): Mr. Ballmer...
* Man was TOO MUCH "business" stock-price wise, but NOT ENOUGH "in touch" with his actual consumer base & market, hands-on (VERY important, moreso than research by others by FAR).
I've seen it hurt companies, & as we ALL know - for years, and still even now, you have mgt. (especially top mgt.) that are NOT "hands-on" in the trenches. That never helps.
APK
P.S.=> I mean, from another 'field of endeavor', let use investing: Warren Buffet being a PRIME example! He is extremely successful - how/why? HE WON'T TOUCH what he himself doesn't have a FIRM grasp of is why (he steered clear of what dusted a lot of his peers in the world of investing, such as derivatives based on mortgage packages). "Our world" in tech, needs more guys like you, even to this very day (and yes, you've got it right - it makes for more saavy & competent leadership... you're NOT going to get "caught with your pants down" on tech questions, or directions of the market because of it)... apk
Well, the question assumes that Oracle would have donated OpenOffice to Outercurve... I think it's kind of obvious that Oracle wanted it to go to the ASF and that other options weren't on the table. Now this could be implied as a Good Thing (a sort of olive branch towards Apache after the Java fiasco), or a Bad Thing (let those SOBs at Apache take all the heat), depending on one's world-view and mindset.
IMO, the "community" is much larger than "just" the LibreOffice community or the old OpenOffice community. The various versions and offshoots of OpenOffice are all part of this larger community, and so the question also assumes that "the community" is just LibreOffice itself, which I disagree with.
In all cases, IMO Outercurve would have handled it similarly to the way the ASF did: accept the code donation and welcome any and all comers with open arms. What would have happened after *that* is anyone's guess.
Because you're a moron known for being a moron, and even ignoring that fact. Your posts are barely intelligible.
"elbigilletni ylerab era stsop ruoY .tcaf taht gnirongi neve dna ,norom a gnieb rof nwonk norom a er'uoy esuaceB" - by Anonymous Coward ANOTHER "ne'er-do-well" /. OFF-TOPIC TROLL on Wednesday August 28, 2013 @02:07PM (#44698387)
"???"
Could we get a translation of that off-topic "troll-speak/trolllanguage" of yours, please?
---
Per my subject-line:
It appears Mr. Jagielski understood me, perfectly (even in multiple languages I suspect) & answered my query... So much for you troll.
---
* QUESTION: Don't you have BETTER THINGS TO DO with yourself, other than "projecting" your OWN inadequacies onto others + trolling?
APK
P.S.=> Yes, it must have just have been another off-topic done nothing of significance with his life troll spewing his off-topic b.s. again & not contributing to the ongoing conversations. Oh well - No biggie!
("ReVeRsE-PsYcHoLoGy" (lol) from above, for trolls - Courtesy of this code by "yours truly" in less than 1 second flat):
---
#TrollTalkComReversePsychologyKiller.py (Ver #2 by APK)
def reverse(s):
try:
trollstring = ""
for apksays in s:
trollstring = apksays + trollstring
except:
print("error/abend in reverse function")
return trollstring
s = ""
print reverse(s)
try:
s = "Insert whatever 'trollspeak/trolllanguage' gibberish occurs here..."
s = reverse(s)
print(s)
except Exception as e:
print(e)
---
... apk
It's quite clear then that you are part of the problem, not part of the solution.
The problem with s/w patents isn't that some s/w patents are bad or even totally ridiculous, but that the very concept of patenting algorithms is flawed.
Is the Jagubox in mothballs? On ice? Six feet under? :)
Then it looks like M$ has pulled a tooth from RH, AF and OSI in one move. Outercurve is sponsored by M$. It was founded for and by M$. Assisting there further's M$ agenda against OSS. It has been good that you have worked for Red Hat and been at AF and OSI, but why throw that all away in order to further M$ goals against OSS? Their practices haven't changed at all not even recently so why join them? Helping them only hurts OSS.