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Senators Push To Preserve NSA Phone Surveillance
cold fjord writes "The New York times reports that the Chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, Senator Dianne Feinstein (D-CA), and Vice Chairman, Senator Saxby Chambliss (R-GA), are moving a bill forward that would 'change but preserve' the controversial NSA phone log program. Senator Feinstein believes the program is legal, but wants to improve public confidence. The bill would reduce the time the logs could be kept, require public reports on how often it is used, and require FISA court review of the numbers searched. The bill would require Senate confirmation of the NSA director. It would also give the NSA a one week grace period in applying for permission from a court to continue surveillance of someone that travels from overseas to the United States. The situation created by someone traveling from overseas to the United States has been the source of the largest number of incidents in the US in which NSA's surveillance rules were not properly complied with. The rival bill offered by Senators Wyden (D-OR) and Udall (D-CO) which imposes tougher restrictions is considered less likely to pass."
They're not representing the people and therefore undemocratic. Fire them.
As a world traveler who is actively seeing many places, cultures and things let me tell you about my perspective... Nah, I better keep my mouth shut.
Also who trusts FISA again??? The secret court that declares itself legal... I think I did that in the garage when I was 5.
Hmm, the humour and sarcasm seem to have been be lost on you.
Would someone fucking put Feinstein out of my misery already.
Why do so few people understand that? The surveillance in totalitarian regimes is typically "legal", something being "legal" does not mean anything.
You can in fact establish a totalitarian regime in an entirely legal way almost everywhere. Step one is to scare the population into irrationality ("terrorism" and other specters work nicely). Then you manipulate the supreme court (if you have one) into doing more and more bizarre interpretations of the constitution (if you have one). This has been going on for some while in the US. And finally you drop all pretense and make laws against "crimes" that place more and more people into that class (victim-less crimes work well here), so you can get rid easily of anybody you do not like. Allowing the use of random finds in searches, even when the original reason for the search turns out to be bogus (a truly despicable practice) helps, because everybody has something illegal that can be found with over-broad criminalization. Then scare the targets into a deal, so no judge or jury gets to examine the accusations.
See, easy. And well under way in the US.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
I'm glad I'm not a member of The Party. I hear they watch those mother f*ckers really close.
I'd rather have no boots as part of the proles then blue overalls.
America has a horrible habit of not learning from history. It is worrying to see obvious extremists like Feinstein, pushing through viciously totalitarian legislation of this type.
Look at the German experience of these type of laws - first with the Nazis, then with the Stasi police state.
What has been happening in America is FAR more reaching than either the Nazi or Stasi surveillance ever was. The American people need to act now, to move towards a democratic path. It will be a difficult journey after such a long period of ruthless totalitarian government. It will require rebuilding of all the fundemental institutions of the state, to be free of corruption, and to be free of corporate interference. I hope for the sake of ordinary americans, that they can cast aside the corrupt regime, before it is too late, and their country implodes.
Absolutely right and on topic. "Legal" became very fashionable word for various organized crime rings within governments around the world.
"The law" turned into another business venue which can be stretched to some shady organization or group of people liking. Add media ownership to that mix and any passages from the Constitution are not worth more than toilet paper.
> Senator Dianne Feinstein (D-CA) believes the program is legal
Bullshit. Tell her about the fourth amendment. Don't you love the way democrats are just as willing to fuck over your civil liberties as the republicans?
I am sick of people like Feinstein wiping their asses on the constitution until SCOTUS tells her to stop six years later. I propose we jail constitution rapists like Feinstein and bald perjury man to send a message to other constitution rapists.
We've all known for years that the NSA was monitoring all of us. That's what they do. I'm glad they are. We should have the best spy agency in the world, that 's how we avoid trouble.
Snowden has done nothing good for this country.
Crypto-anarchism.
Victory through mathematics!
The bill would reduce the time the logs could be kept, require public reports on how often it is used, and require FISA court review of the numbers searched.
Riiiight. The organization that lied to Congress, lied to the FISA Kangaroo Court, and then lied to the public when they got caught is going to suddenly be cowed by tweaking the law.
They should call this the Whitewash Amendment.
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
Fuck you and your corporate fascist oligopoly.
Sincerely yours,
The rest of the world.
Given that their behaviour is grossly inconsistent with their other political views, one is forced to the conclusion that the NSA has got some means of coercion to get them to propose this.
lemme guess, from "forever" to "eternity"?
I'm so glad that Senator Feinstein believes that this is a legal program that just needs a few "tweaks".
It will make it very easy for her to understand when she is fired for not following the basic tenants she swore to uphold, as documented within the Constitution and our Bill of Rights.
If we're going to keep ignoring these documents over and over again, then the next thing we should initiate is a complete erasure of these topics in the public school system. I certainly see no point in teaching students about history made irrelevant, and it will only serve to confuse the shit out of the next generation as they try and land a job with a criminal record for exercising their Right to peacefully assemble.
Perhaps then our illustrious leaders will get a clue that you either uphold your founding principles, or you get rid of them. Just stop lying to try and convince us that they actually mean anything anymore.
if the citizens of this country have any true representation in washington, d.c...
my guess: the anti-snooping bill will get buried in committee. this one will sail through to the floor where it will get quietly tacked-on to some unrelated bill that nobody would dare vote against.
It's too convenient an escape hatch for anything the government wants to sweep under the rug.
Looks like we need to have a new amendment that keeps the government from data mining and using the current state of technology to create a 1984 state.
"Nothing changes; not in a hurry anyway." - 'Solid rock', Goanna, 1982
It doesn't change the problem:
- The NSA is deciding what the NSA can do; to everyone.
- The politicians charged with protecting the tax-payers provide unfettered power to career bureaucrats.
- Bureaucrats and politicians alike are lying about the abuse of that unfettered power.
and kick him in the nuts. I'm sorry, but it's starting to look more and more like violence will be the answer.
"Let's say we did something so that we can start pretending things are different."
The states those politicians represent should recall their Asses immediately. Seriously, what is up with these representatives.
I just cant get over how the worst enemies of this country are the ones we elected.
These are EVIL men, everyone needs to write their congresscritters and tell them how they do NOT support the actions of these Evil senators who want to permanently destroy our freedom.
Sadly, I know I am in the minority and that most of you think that all this domestic spying is a good thing.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
she knows oracle and google are going to get rich off the nsa contracts!
The bill would require Senate confirmation of the NSA director.
So this Senator's solution to "reform" is to give more power to herself and that respected, august body of dispassionate reason and good judgement, the Senate.
Yet she has no problem with the FISA rubberstampers being the final overseer.
Why am I surprised?
I voted for Feinstein many times, but you know what? She needs to go. She needs to lose her job because she's nothing but an ossified and unoriginal thinker in times which call for a radical re-thinking of the relationship between privacy, security and liberty.
She's 80 years old and she doesn't "get" the modern world anymore. The times she';s legislating for are now officially over and the post 9-11, post apocalyptic global terrorism, post-Snowden times are what we have now have to sort out. She's doddering around commanding her staffers to tweak things here and there and move a few chairs around .
She is part of the go-along-to-get-along business as usual crows that has failed us and brought us to this point. Time to go. Enjoy your gold-plated Senate healthcare retirement benefits.
Every nation gets the government it deserves.
A government program that feels its duty is to review the contents of every American email, phone call, and SMS, regardless of such superficial things like 'warrants'? You own it, Americans. After decades of inviting the federal government to fix your problems, this is what you get. From the Midwest corn farmers enjoying their subsidies to the inner city food-stamp-reared-baby-machines, Americans have sold themselves for pennies on their liberty. Worse, you don't even get a good deal with your Faustian compromises. You awarded yourselves a universal healthcare program that is neither universal nor financially sound. Your social security program seizes your salary and barely beats inflation on returns (if you even get it back).
This is what you get. You've handed so much of your agency to your political class, they can't help but think they can make the best decisions for you. Perhaps that's why the wealthiest counties in America ring the capital. Perhaps that's why your representatives make 300% per capita GDP in salary and have an average net worth nearly 30x the average American family's. Perhaps that's why they see fit to exempt themselves from the laws they write.
You've fed the megalomaniacs. Good luck telling them you want your 'privacy' back.
And who is expecting other outcome than this ? Frankly, I don't expect them paying attention to citzenry at all. Growing political isolation (as we see in Syria case or latest UN meeting) might have bigger impact (either good or bad - no one knows).
If Senator Feinstein wants it, that it's definately a bad idea. Maybe we will all get lucky and an anvil will fall on her.
I can't count how many times I've seen police in a video or in person say "ignorance of the law isn't an excuse" but given we now have secret courts with secret laws with secret interpretations I think it's about damn time ignorance became a valid defense for doing something "illegal".
I have a better idea, which I shall propose here.
I propose that the NSA be allowed to wiretap phone calls and keep logs of phone calls when they have either a) a court-issued warrant or b) direct and verifiable probable cause. In fact I think there is some old document, words scribbled on parchment that were mumbling something about court oversight over the government prohibiting unreasonable search and seizures, but perhaps I'm just a radical extremist and only imagined the whole thing.
The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
Prima fascia proof that the Republicans have no monopoly on evil.
They feared that it could be used to suppress protest or support unpopular rule.
I'd rather send it to the dustbin of history than keep it. But I don't think for one minute that they won't fight tooth-and-nail to prevent that. A government that gives up any power once it has it is very rare indeed.
In SOVIET RUSSIA... erm...NSA AMERICA, the Internet logs onto YOU!
Here we have a classic who'da-thunk-it situation. It is difficult to craft a poll question that has even a third of Americans voicing any 'support' for intrusive surveillance
Now we know that Senator Feinstein is some sort of gelatinous alien rodeo clown from outer space ... but what of the others? This is bigger and badder than the transgressions that triggered the Church Committee. Where is the bandwagon? Where is the passion?
Gag me with a spooooon (I am Slashdot's favorite score:{-1,0,1} commenter) but y'all are some of the smartest critters around but all I see here is more of the same lounge lizard comfort zone hate I see elsewhere. They're attacking the Constitution, we hates them Precious, we hates them!
What about the WTF factor? Should this be sounding alarms in our heads? Could some of these elected representatives be under duress? And isn't it our collective 'job' to find out?
We seem to be hung up on ego as a species (it's mostly a male thing), find it difficult to create cultural 'duress codes', subtle signals that could be used to indicate that beneath the surface of our unexpected or unpopular behavior, there is a motivator that could explain our actions. One that, should it come to light, would not just absolve us but might eliminate a conspiracy of true evil.
But we don't have duress in the vocabulary, so the game is handed over directly to blackmailers, extortionists and for wont of a better term, bullies.
So here I give you the score. We have delivered on a platter the scenario that a government agency is certainly in possession of material (read and unread), goods on people, that if disclosed would ruin their lives.
WHAT IF there was some way to secretly poll Congress, put them to a simple question to which they could respond in an anonymous but accountable way. The question is,
Are you now, or have you ever been directly threatened to support intrusive government surveillance as a result of materials collected under that surveillance?
The victim of blackmail feels alone and isolated in the world. Our society is so hung up on Puritan holier than thou ethos that effective blackmail can be devised from the dumbest of things.
As computer professionals we understand that serious software vulnerabilities do arise through human error and oversight. It seems so easy to discuss their impact and work hand in hand with the 'guilty' engineers to close the holes.
What if glaringly obvious, dangerous vulnerabilities arise in our political process? Will we have the human decency to acknowledge a 'duress signal' and work with the affected parties (politicians under blackmail) to rrectify this dumb situation in a way that leaves their dignity and valuable career contributions intact?
We need to hack our culture to add a 'duress code' feature.
It could be a matter of survival. Otherwise the most ruthless assholes will run the show. Even within NSA there are lots of folks who do not wish to be a party to this. It's time for them to speak up too.
<blink>down the rabbit hole</blink>
You are just awesome CF. Every time I find myself wanting scream obscenities at the screen because a post is such a blatant appeal to american cowardice, I see that name Cold Fjord and I remember that there are pentagon propagandists. You are awesome dude! How does it feel to be a deceptive thug trying to make americans cower in fear? Both my grandfathers fought fascism so that thugs like you could bring it home by playing on the cowardice of your average american.
What I wanna know is: who are ya doing it for?
Actually, no, I take that back - I don't want to know a fucking thing about you or anything you associate with. Your buddies are the ones laughing in glee at the thought of their boots stomping on our faces.
Senator Feinstein does not fill me with confidence.
Just how badly do these people want to be lynched by angry mobs? Are they daring us to stand up to them? Or do they live in such a bubble that they think the American people will take their abuse forever?
Do what you can, with what you have, where you are.
Senator Feinstein believes the program is legal, but wants to improve public confidence.
That made me chuckle. Sorry Senator, once you've been caught hiding things people are going to think you are still hiding things even if you're not. That's how the loss of trust works. You see, we don't trust you or the NSA anymore. As a wise man once said, fool me once shame on you, fool me can't get fooled again. So there will be no improvement of confidence amongst thinking people. The NSA spies on us and lied about it. It will take a long time of explicit good behavior for us to trust you or NSA again. And we all know that's not going to happen.
"What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
The odds of SOCIETY rising up to do anything about this are about the same as God (whether you believe in him or not) taking time out of his busy schedule to come to Earth and smite a couple politicians. In fact it's about as likely as him showing up to enact that Rapture that all the evangelicals seem to really have a hardon for. My personal take on the whole thing is the Rapture already happened and nobody's bothered to realize they weren't the chosen ones yet :) Would be rather ironic don't you think?
I don't think we can put the surveillance genie back in the bottle, and I fully understand why anyone involved in national defense would want to keep things just as they are.
My primary concern is the lack of oversight. Or rather, the lack of *proof* of oversight. They could have the best oversight in the world and it wouldn't matter if it were all performed by secret courts.
I'd be satisfied if they'd simply let people know when their records were being viewed for any reason, with a reasonable delay for ongoing investigations. 3 years from now a bunch of people would get letters saying "We intercepted your email on Date XX with respect to investigation YY". And those letters would be our raw data for determining how out of control the NSA may or may not be.
Feel free to pick apart the idea, but the core point is that these guys are backed by a ton of money and power. Their only restraints are legal/procedural. There is very little physically restraining them from vacuuming up all the data in the world and using it as they see fit. The most important thing we can do is provide a feedback mechanism from the rest of society so we can detect and correct when they've crossed a line.
Last post!
> "Senator Feinstein believes the program is legal, but wants to improve public confidence"
Your name degrades confidence. Take it off the bill, resign, and move to Pawpaw New Guinea, and take 2/3 of Congress with you.
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
but they are consistently better at it...
Are very much needed to overcome SCOTUS rulings which appear to allow the collection of phone meta data. While it would be nice to see a liberal/progressive critter step up, they seem unlikely to grow a pair. That puts it on the likes of Lee, Paul or Amash.
I would start with a very simple bill. "Phone call records are private information to be shared only with customer and company except by explicit search warrant with probably cause shown." That would get the rest of the fuckwads on record once and for all. Pelosi? Boxer? Lowey? Sanders? No where to hide.
No, just get over it. You are still one of those folks that wants to debate which party is better or worse. A majority of both parties are evil, so get over this throwing stones crap about which is more evil and wake up.
when your brain is wired to do what the authorities tell you. Read The Authoritarians http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/
I wonder how feinstein and chambliss would feel about wearing an always on camera that everyone could watch 24/7? I still would have no confidence in them or the nsa spying though.
The US was considering letting Germany pull an America on Continental Europe, and if they hadn't been directly antagonistic we might be the best of buddies right now...
http://www.linuxadvocates.com/2013/07/retroshare-true-internet-privacy.html
Sure, people are asking "is that even legal?" but "is it legal" is not exactly the point of what they are asking.
-- A change is as good as a reboot.
I want the NSA to quit spying on it's citizens and the NSA and FISA courts dismantled. But I don't see Congress moving even slightly in this direction. It seems that there is now a power structure consisting of (Congress, Executive, Financial Firms, FED) that cannot be moved.
Is there any form of "passive resistance" that will help bring a good outcome?
It DOES reflect the majority of voters. The majority voted for Feinstein and all the rest. I've spoken to several people who think the NSA thing isn't a problem. They grow more concerned when I provide them some information about what the NSA has been doing.
It's not that the majority wants to be spied on, it's that the majority is watching Dancing With the Stars. In some surveys, most people didn't know who the vice president was. Of those who DID know the vice president's name, around 40% say they get their news from Comedy Central.
So about 15% of Americans read or watch news programs (South Park and Daily Show aren't news).
The majority doesn't know what NSA stands for, and the nature of that majority is reflected in the government's actions.
They believe it's legal? What does that have to do with anything when writing a law? How about deciding if it's right? How about, "Does this push us closer to a police state?"
Instead of asking "How can we instill public confidence?", how about they ask, "How can we prevent our intelligence agencies from enabling tyranny?" or "What are the consequences of allowing this data collection if a future presidential administration decides to significantly oppress the public?"
Another good question they should ask is "What happened to needing to get a warrant issued based 'upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched'?"
When is Feinstein going to make the jump like her ideological doppleganger Joseph Lieberman? We've been waiting a long time, Senator. You might as well just switch parties.
I think parent refers to the widely known fact that Uncle Laban, Ebeneezer Scrooge, and the Koch Brothers, are all registered Republicans, which is prima fascia evidence that they are, in fact,
the Party of Evil.
They feared that it could be used to suppress protest or support unpopular rule.
We are soooooo screwed.
In a REAL two (or more) party system, you'd have SOMEBODY screaming bloody murder over something like this.
The total absence of any alternate/dissenting voices should give us all pause.
The almost total silence of the media about this should be incentive enough to contact media professionals - from the local level all the way up - and demand they do their damn jobs.
The almost total lack of will to DO anything about it - well, THAT is the most disturbing and damning aspect of the situation.
When you accept the unacceptable by silence and inactivity, you get what you collectively deserve.