Slashdot Mirror


Slashdot PT Cruiser Spotted In the Wild

You may remember the Slashdot PT Cruiser if you've been around long enough. You might even wonder what fate befell it. You can sleep comfortably tonight for it has been spotted alive and seemingly well in Walnut Creek.

94 comments

  1. At least it wasn't an Aztek by NFN_NLN · · Score: 2

    PT Cruiser... that's one step up from the Pontiac Aztek at least.

    1. Re:At least it wasn't an Aztek by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      AMC Pacer.

    2. Re:At least it wasn't an Aztek by ackthpt · · Score: 4, Insightful

      PT Cruiser... that's one step up from the Pontiac Aztek at least.

      Years back when I blew a heater hose on California 17, heading home from Santa Clara, I chatted with the tow truck driver. "Which cars do you tow the most?" "Oh, PT cruisers, I get a couple every day, they break down a lot." I'm sure they have the issues sorted by now, but tow truck drivers area great people to ask about what not to buy at the present.

      --

      A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
    3. Re:At least it wasn't an Aztek by drainbramage · · Score: 2, Funny

      I thought you were going to tell us about the time you blew a seal.
      Or was that a walrus?

      --
      No brain, no pain.
    4. Re:At least it wasn't an Aztek by tompaulco · · Score: 1

      Well, of course, PT Cruisers come free with three boxtops from Cheerios, so there probably would be rather a lot of them getting towed. You would have to compare the relative frequency with the number of that vehicle out there.

      --
      If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
    5. Re: At least it wasn't an Aztek by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hey, back in the day, it would have been a Pinto, a Vega, a Valiant or a Deus Cheveux. Just because it's only a Neon with an optional freezer box grafted to its ass doesn't make it any more detestable than any other piece entry level consumer crap on the road.

    6. Re:At least it wasn't an Aztek by SpzToid · · Score: 2

      Babe Magnet Deluxe if ever I saw one!

      --
      You can't be ahead of the curve, if you're stuck in a loop.
    7. Re:At least it wasn't an Aztek by Rob+the+Bold · · Score: 2

      I thought you were going to tell us about the time you blew a seal. Or was that a walrus?

      Just fix the damn thing and leave his private life outta this, OK, Pal?

      --
      I am not a crackpot.
    8. Re:At least it wasn't an Aztek by Rob+the+Bold · · Score: 1

      PT Cruiser... that's one step up from the Pontiac Aztek at least.

      The Aztek: what happens when a Grand Prix gets crushed by a falling Sunfire.

      --
      I am not a crackpot.
    9. Re:At least it wasn't an Aztek by ttucker · · Score: 1

      What other car comes with a center console that is also a removable cooler?!?

    10. Re:At least it wasn't an Aztek by sgrover · · Score: 1

      I was told something similar about Ford/Mercury Sables a few years back. I think it has a lot to do with how many of the cars were sold in a given year, and how long that model can expect before a break down. If there were a LOT of PT Cruisers sold in a given year, and we could expect a 5 year average (for example) before a significant malfunction, then in that 5th year tow truck drivers would see a significant number of PT Cruisers on their hoists - regardless of the quality of the vehicle.

    11. Re:At least it wasn't an Aztek by Guy+Harris · · Score: 2

      I thought you were going to tell us about the time you blew a seal.

      No, it was just ice cream.

    12. Re:At least it wasn't an Aztek by coolmoose25 · · Score: 1

      I bought a PT Cruiser for my daughter when she was in high school. It is a convertible. Her requirement was "convertible." It was by far the cheapest available. Bought it new for $17,500. It was the last one they had in Connecticut. Other than me breaking the seat belt buckle, which caused the airbag system to fail, and a crankcase sensor that needed to be replaced, it has been uber reliable and trouble free. Never stranded anyone, ever. Has 60,000 miles on it now, and have only done brakes, tires and oil changes. Maybe I got the only good one.

      We call it the "Barbie Car" because it looks like one, especially when you drop the top and the roll bar sticks out like a barbie car handle. A friend said that every time he sees it, a little piece of him dies in side. It is a very maligned car. Yet it's basically a Neon with different side panels. And she won the category of "coolest car" in her high school year book. All in all, money well spent.

      (and one more "perk"... it is a 2008 bought in 2009, right before Chrysler went belly up. So it has an unlimited powertrain warranty. I plan on keeping that car until the only thing that is left is the engine and transmission. Hopefully I'll bankrupt Chrysler with engine/transmission replacements through 2035)

      --
      Brawndo: It's what plants crave!
    13. Re:At least it wasn't an Aztek by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      You'll have to get him drunker than that to hear the story.

    14. Re:At least it wasn't an Aztek by David_Hart · · Score: 1

      PT Cruiser... that's one step up from the Pontiac Aztek at least.

      Nope, a step down...

      The Aztek was just ugly, much like the Nissan Cube, but was fairly reliable. The PT Cruiser, on the other hand, was the cheapest piece-o-cr4p. Shortly after they first came out, I rented one while in Florida for a day before we went on a cruise. It was like riding in a tin can.

    15. Re:At least it wasn't an Aztek by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I bought a PT Cruiser for my daughter when she was in high school. It is a convertible. Her requirement was "convertible."

      How have you fucked up parenting so badly that your child has requirements for the extravagant free gifts you supply her with? With any luck she'll meet a nice yoloswagfag douchebag bro and form the perfect couple who totally deserve each other.

    16. Re:At least it wasn't an Aztek by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's funny...

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCiIBfEKCds

    17. Re:At least it wasn't an Aztek by ackthpt · · Score: 1

      PT Cruiser... that's one step up from the Pontiac Aztek at least.

      Nope, a step down...

      The Aztek was just ugly, much like the Nissan Cube, but was fairly reliable. The PT Cruiser, on the other hand, was the cheapest piece-o-cr4p. Shortly after they first came out, I rented one while in Florida for a day before we went on a cruise. It was like riding in a tin can.

      My assessment of the Fiat 500. People think they are 'cute'. They don't like to do 80, so not your best before any state with that limit on the highways. Noisy, too.

      --

      A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
    18. Re:At least it wasn't an Aztek by toddestan · · Score: 1

      Hey, at least the Aztek was trying to do something different, even if it didn't "click" with car buyers. I consider it a much more interesting vehicle than the boring, ugly, and utterly generic CUVs that now roam the streets.

    19. Re:At least it wasn't an Aztek by mjwx · · Score: 1

      I chatted with the tow truck driver. "Which cars do you tow the most?" "Oh, PT cruisers, I get a couple every day, they break down a lot."

      I'd never touch a PT cruiser because they're ugly as sin. Lets ignore the pissweak engine.

      But they're unreliable too.

      I once saw a PT Cruiser Cabriolet, the one thing you can do to make the worlds ugliest car even uglier, is chop the roof off.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    20. Re:At least it wasn't an Aztek by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I bought a PT Cruiser for my daughter when she was in high school. It is a convertible. Her requirement was "convertible."

      How have you fucked up parenting so badly that your child has requirements for the extravagant free gifts you supply her with? With any luck she'll meet a nice yoloswagfag douchebag bro and form the perfect couple who totally deserve each other.

      You wish them to breed?

    21. Re:At least it wasn't an Aztek by ttucker · · Score: 1

      It might not have been popular in the new market, but we never had a problem selling one in the used market. It was one of those vehicles before its time, and you really can see its influence in newer offerings.

  2. RIGHT ON!!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Now this is the kind of stuff that draws attention, draws crowds, draws visibility.
    Congrats on survival..
    Definately more value then the study of smaug and the concept of "middle-earth"
    No dragons here..very low emissions as well too.

    1. Re:RIGHT ON!!!! by bob_super · · Score: 1

      Draws crowds... who then run away when they see the new layout, saving them the realization that they can't understand half the headlines, let alone TFS, TFA, or any of the acronyms...

      (not very low emissions, the PT cruiser has dreadful mileage for its size)

    2. Re: RIGHT ON!!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Better Living Through Perception Adjustment!

      Another round of Soma for everybody... it's on Slash Rot.

  3. Inception by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Likewise we didn't want to get into a situation where we were 'just part of a network' using all our stories to plug other network sites.

    Remembering the days when you remember the days when you remember the days?

  4. Ugly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The PT Cruiser is the ugliest vehicle ever made, hands down. Slapping Slashdot decals on it is fitting though, as we all know how well nerds are known for good style and good taste.

    1. Re:Ugly by lennier1 · · Score: 4, Informative
    2. Re:Ugly by mendax · · Score: 1

      The PT Cruiser is the ugliest vehicle ever made, hands down.

      Then it's appropriate that my ex-wife got her purple PT Cruiser as part of the divorce settlement.

      --
      It's really quite a simple choice: Life, Death, or Los Angeles.
    3. Re:Ugly by SJHillman · · Score: 1

      It's a pretty ugly vehicle, but there's some tough competition for "ever made". Even if you only count mass-produced cars.

      http://www.edmunds.com/car-rev...

    4. Re:Ugly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's nothing, you should see the Beta version.

    5. Re:Ugly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's only few cars, that i can stand to watch from about -75 to today, and PT cruiser is one of them. Take you piece of shit plastic boxes with ugly ass factory made side scratches and stick'em.

    6. Re:Ugly by amicusNYCL · · Score: 4, Funny

      Please put a warning when you're posting links like that, some of us are at work.

      --
      "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
    7. Re:Ugly by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      Anything by Scion should be in that list, especially the xB.

    8. Re:Ugly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A new keyboard. You owe me one!

    9. Re:Ugly by cusco · · Score: 1

      AMC Gremlin

      AMC Pacer

      Almost anything else ever made by AMC . . .

      Although I have to admit I never thought I'd see an uglier vehicle mass produced than the Gremlin, the Fiat 500 is probably the most hideous thing I've seen on the highway. Perfect car for Jennifer Lopez to hype.

      --
      "Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
    10. Re:Ugly by dargaud · · Score: 1

      Woah, that thing is ugly. And has serious mandibular prognathism problems. It looks like the vehicles we use to pick up dog shit.

      --
      Non-Linux Penguins ?
  5. So.... by AioKits · · Score: 1

    ... all units converge on Walnut Creek?

    --
    "Quote me as saying I was mis-quoted." -Groucho Marx
  6. Sadly I remember this by onyxruby · · Score: 1

    Can we have a new contest to reimburse the owner and bury this sad memory once and for all? I nominate the Atari ET graveyard for a proper disposal facility myself.

  7. Not what Slashdot drives, but what drives Slashdot by jabberw0k · · Score: 3, Interesting

    More importantly: Whatever happened to Slashcode, which is what [cue the In Soviet Russia jokes] drives Slashdot?The last version seems to date from nearly a decade ago now.

  8. Apparently owned by an egg-head. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ditto.

  9. I see it now and then by crgrace · · Score: 2

    I grew up close to Walnut Creek so I'm in the area periodically and I've seen the PT Cruiser now and then. I'm pretty sure it's green though. The picture makes it look blue!

  10. Taco's twitter avatar pic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Does anyone know why is Malda holding his breath?

    1. Re:Taco's twitter avatar pic by SJHillman · · Score: 1

      So his face becomes the same color as the Slashdot PT Cruiser. Duh.

  11. I saw it in El Cerrito by linuxwrangler · · Score: 3, Informative

    About a year ago: http://www.flickr.com/photos/9...

    Like any good geek car, it was parked near a brewpub:
    http://www.elevation66.com/
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/9...

    --

    ~~~~~~~
    "You are not remembered for doing what is expected of you." - Atul Chitnis
    1. Re:I saw it in El Cerrito by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      Naw, that's a dupe, a sloshdot tradition that extends to vehicles.

  12. link? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm confused. That link doesn't have a PT Cruiser in the story, as far as my reading skills allow.

    I've been a regular lurker since 2001 or so... I have no memory of this car.

    Where's the real story?

    1. Re: link? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The 'real' story is most obviously NOT to be found here...

      The Truth is Elswhere --Â

    2. Re:link? by larry+bagina · · Score: 1

      I think trollaxor has the full story on his site. the short version is, Bendover.net (or maybe it was VA Lunix?) were going to have a contest and gave away the /. PT Cruiser. There was an incident at the geek compound, the car was impounded, the contest was canceled. For a while, anyone posted about it was hit with bitchslap.pl.

      --
      Do you even lift?

      These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.

  13. Re:Not what Slashdot drives, but what drives Slash by cultiv8 · · Score: 1

    If you disable AdBlock,there's a download now button in the right. *runs, ducks*

    --
    sysadmins and parents of newborns get the same amount of sleep.
  14. Re:Not what Slashdot drives, but what drives Slash by game+kid · · Score: 1

    But...that's...that's GPL!!! You want them to release code instead of making their new Beta version a handy proprietary Slashdot-only box!? Why, that's insane! That's heresy!

    --
    You can hold down the "B" button for continuous firing.
  15. Yeah, CmdrTaco is a real great guy... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As I recall he said that the PT Cruiser was a stupid idea. Now he's pimping it out as self-promotion for Twitter. I wonder if he adores his iPod too.

  16. In Germany... by Quila · · Score: 4, Informative

    You have the ADAC, the national automobile club. They have yellow cars and trucks running up and down the roads constantly, and in a breakdown you call them and get helped fairly fast. They publish a yearly list of the cars they have to rescue the most. It's more helpful than any other metric of reliability. It's like getting that tow truck driver advice from most of the tow truck drivers in the country at one time.

    1. Re:In Germany... by Algae_94 · · Score: 2

      It's also important to factor in the number of miles driven by each model of car. For example, if the data said car A broke down twice as much as car B, you would think car B is better. If car A was actually driven a combined mileage that was 10x car B's mileage, car A would have less break downs per mile driven.

    2. Re:In Germany... by Quila · · Score: 1, Offtopic

      None of those are among the most popular brands of car in Germany.

    3. Re:In Germany... by Algae_94 · · Score: 1

      I was under the assumption that posters on /. understood the concept of a variable. My mistake.

    4. Re:In Germany... by mjwx · · Score: 1

      It's also important to factor in the number of miles driven by each model of car. For example, if the data said car A broke down twice as much as car B, you would think car B is better. If car A was actually driven a combined mileage that was 10x car B's mileage, car A would have less break downs per mile driven.

      One of the biggest myths in buying a car is that mileage matters.

      Mileage is by no means an indication of reliablity. A car with more KM's on the clock may be more unreliable as a car with half the KM's because it's been looked after. The biggest indication when buying a used car for reliability is the service history. A car that is regularly serviced, gets parts replaced when needed, has had all the oil/brakes/belts changed on time is going to be more reliable than a car that hasn't but has half the K's on the odometer.

      With models that have a good reputation for reliability (I.E. Honda Civic's, Toyota Corolla's) if you keep them serviced regularly, they'll happily run for over 600,000 KM on mostly original parts. The only things you'll end up having to replace will be things made of rubber (engine mounts, timing belt (which should get done every X thousand KM's as per manufacturer service schedules), aux belt, arm bushes and so forth) which are usually pretty cheap but after 12-15 years rubber does degrade.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    5. Re:In Germany... by Mr+Z · · Score: 1

      Not just mileage, but also number of cars, and age at time of breakdown. If you have a bunch of 20 year old cars of Brand X dying along the side of the road, the fact they're 20 years old is more an endorsement than an indictment.

    6. Re:In Germany... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sure....

      German auto club Allgemeiner Deutscher Automobil-Club e.V., or ADAC, may no longer bestow their annual Yellow Angel Award after the club admitted to vote rigging.

    7. Re:In Germany... by gentryx · · Score: 1

      ...or humor.

      --
      Computer simulation made easy -- LibGeoDecomp
  17. balls-out pimpin' by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    hey, don't be hatin' on the Aztec. Walter Blanco drove an Aztec. Now he's king of the methlords.

    1. Re:balls-out pimpin' by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      spoiler alert. he died, brah.

    2. Re: balls-out pimpin' by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No he didn't. Was just chilling out after a hard days work killing devious bitches and white supremacists and freeing the slaves.

  18. PT Crapper by jvschwarz · · Score: 1

    Ended up renting the PT Cruiser a couple of times, while on work trips, and hated them... they really should be called the PT Crapper.

    --
    ... if that's your best, your best won't do... - Twisted Sister
    1. Re:PT Crapper by ttucker · · Score: 1

      They have this motor mount that breaks all the time, and you can easily see it from the top of the engine. Only much later do you realize that it is a five hour job to change it. Most PT Cruisers have a lot of engine vibration...

    2. Re:PT Crapper by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's basically a Doge Neon. What do you expect?

    3. Re:PT Crapper by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What really sucks is when you have to do a tire job on one that has seen some time in harsh weather. The shitty chrome coating on the rims starts to flake off, and the flakes are like fucking KNIVES. I have yells so much vulgarity cutting myself on that shit, and I'm very careful. It's nasty stuff man.

      Oil changes on them are a fucking dream though, I'll give them that.

  19. At Walnut Creek? by Mikkeles · · Score: 3, Funny

    So, is it used to cart CD-ROMs around?

    --
    Great minds think alike; fools seldom differ.
    1. Re:At Walnut Creek? by Dogtanian · · Score: 1

      At Walnut Creek? So, is it used to cart CD-ROMs around?

      I'm sure I still have that purple Aminet CD kicking around somewhere...

      --
      "Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
    2. Re:At Walnut Creek? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I saw it at Rock Ridge. The railroad's going through there!

    3. Re:At Walnut Creek? by gmhowell · · Score: 1

      The sherrif is nearer.

      --
      Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
  20. Re:Slow news day by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Perhaps you need to troll CNN instead. It would surely make ALL of us happier.

  21. Pre-Teen cruiser.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sadly I have neurons now allocated to the memory of that troll.

    Truly, an American icon.

    OOG SMASH!

    1. Re:Pre-Teen cruiser.. by larry+bagina · · Score: 1

      Pre-Teen? I thought it was Potty Trained. Though, when I interned at the geek compound, piss/shit play seemed to be pretty popular.

      --
      Do you even lift?

      These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.

    2. Re:Pre-Teen cruiser.. by Mr+Z · · Score: 1

      No, it was indeed the Slashdot Pre-Teen Cruiser. Naked petrified Natalie Portman approved. Comes a lifetime of hot grits down your pants.

      Oh, and I love this item from the old Slashdot FAQ:

      If you're not corporate drones, whose idea was the Slashdot PT Cruiser?

      Marketing. Personally, we (Rob and Jeff) think the Slashdot Cruiser was a really stupid idea, and if they'd asked us about it, we'd have told them so. Usually the marketing department consults with us about promotional ideas, but they're not required to, and in this case they didn't. Given that the reaction to it has been largely negative, we expect they've learned their lesson.

  22. PT Cruiser? by sootman · · Score: 5, Funny

    No wireless. Less space than a Nomad. Lame.

    --
    Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.
  23. Re:Not what Slashdot drives, but what drives Slash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Even if it was GPL ... Slashdot is a web application and doesn't redistribute code, yes? How does the GPL help?

  24. Oh yeah, I remember. by ShaunC · · Score: 1

    It was hard to browse at -1 for awhile without seeing dozens upon dozens of

    CRUISIN' FOR PRETEENS IN MY SLASHDOT PT CRUISER!

    I thought I'd forgotten that particular troll.

    --
    Thanks to the War on Drugs, it's easier to buy meth than it is to buy cold medicine!
  25. Re:Not what Slashdot drives, but what drives Slash by ShaunC · · Score: 1

    Even if it was GPL ... Slashdot is a web application and doesn't redistribute code, yes? How does the GPL help?

    Slashcode, the web application that runs Slashdot, is GPL'd and for awhile there were a lot of other websites running their own tweaked versions. There was a Japanese version, there was MacSlash, etc. You can still download Slashcode, install it on your own web server, and run your own discussion site with it.

    I don't know if there are any sites still using the code, seeing as how it hasn't been updated in ages, and much newer options are available - for example Reddit's code is open source and you could use that instead.

    --
    Thanks to the War on Drugs, it's easier to buy meth than it is to buy cold medicine!
  26. Re:Not what Slashdot drives, but what drives Slash by Lehk228 · · Score: 1

    reddit's vote logic isn't very good, by allowing unlimited up and down voting it promotes groupthink and circlejerking far more than slashcode

    --
    Snowden and Manning are heroes.
  27. For those that say the PT is lame by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The cruiser GT was good car. Same turbo as the SRT4 on thge longer-stroke 2.4L and a stronger Getrag transmission.
    70 cubic feet of cargo-carrying (can easily fit 3x5 cement board and 2x4x8s in the back), short wheelbase so it is easy to park,
    handles better then a SUV and a total sleeper. I love the fact people think they're lame -- I got two GTs cheap!

  28. Re:Not what Slashdot drives, but what drives Slash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You could probably fix that. If votes > 5, votes = 5. if votes -1, votes = -1
    I don't care what programming language it is in, if that's the only thing stopping you then you probably could overlook that.

  29. Re:Not what Slashdot drives, but what drives Slash by wiredlogic · · Score: 1

    Moreover, I'm sure Dice owns the copyright on the source code so they don't have to comply with the GPL anyway.

    --
    I am becoming gerund, destroyer of verbs.
  30. Westley (Princess Bride) put it best by TheSeatOfMyPants · · Score: 1

    "Dear God, what is that thing?!"

    --
    Now mostly at Usenet:comp.misc & SoylentNews.org (it's made of people!)
    1. Re:Westley (Princess Bride) put it best by 91degrees · · Score: 2

      It does have its fans. The fact that it has a huge amount of interior space for its size and removable rear seats makes it very practical, and its proponents seem to like its ugliness.

  31. Wow by nitehawk214 · · Score: 1

    There are actually 7+ year old PT Cruisers still on the road?

    --
    I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
  32. Re:Not what Slashdot drives, but what drives Slash by jones_supa · · Score: 1

    Slashcode, the web application that runs Slashdot, is GPL'd and for awhile there were a lot of other websites running their own tweaked versions. There was a Japanese version, there was MacSlash, etc.

    The Japanese version is still going at http://slashdot.jp/ . :)

  33. Re:Not what Slashdot drives, but what drives Slash by jones_supa · · Score: 1

    reddit's vote logic isn't very good, by allowing unlimited up and down voting it promotes groupthink and circlejerking far more than slashcode

    Completely agree.

  34. Re:Not what Slashdot drives, but what drives Slash by Lehk228 · · Score: 1

    I just remembered one of the other things that makes reddit's software substandard, markdown formatting eats valid URLS if they are not manually escaped

    how they managed to write commenting logic that allows weird unicode symbol drawing, but chews up wikipedia links i have no idea. also I prefer non-editable non-deletable comments but that is more personal preference than technical prowess

    --
    Snowden and Manning are heroes.
  35. Re:Not what Slashdot drives, but what drives Slash by gmhowell · · Score: 1

    Surely you recall it was like pulling teeth to get Malda to post even that much code.

    --
    Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon