LA Times: Snowden Had 3 Helpers Inside NSA

retroworks writes "Three people at the National Security Agency have been implicated in Edward Snowden's efforts to copy classified material, including a civilian employee who resigned last month after acknowledging he allowed Snowden to use his computer ID, according to an NSA memo sent to Congress. The other two were an active-duty member of the military and a civilian contractor. The memo does not describe their conduct, but says they were barred from the NSA and its systems in August."

Comments

So, the NSA had good people too?

[jkrise]

Nice to know... there are still humans around!

Re:So, the NSA had good people too?

[Geoffrey.landis]

Nice to know... there are still humans around!

Nice to know, but is this new?
http://yro.slashdot.org/story/...

Re:So, the NSA had good people too?

[LWATCDR]

Because it is great when employees of the federal government take matters into their own hands and over ride the elected government? What could possible go wring with that?

Re:So, the NSA had good people too?

[Anonymous Coward]

Thank you comrade. It is good to know that there are real patriots out there that do what they are told and worship the government as they are supposed to.
we did notice you have not paid your tribute to the great leader lately, you do know this is punishable. I suggest posting at least 15 comments praising the glorious leader on your facebook to make sure you do not have to be re-educated again.

Re:So, the NSA had good people too?

[Opportunist]

When right turns to wrong, resistance becomes an obligation.

Dictatorships all over the world have to rely on people who "only do their job". Without them, no dictatorship in history would have been possible. Whenever you study the makeup of a dictatorship, you'll notice that the die-hard proponents are only a tiny minority. Most people follow either out of opportunistic motivations, because they fear the repercussions if they don't, because they were brainwashed long enough to believe the bull they've been fed or because they simply don't care and just want to be left alone.

As for "elected government". The Soviet Union had an elected government. That's no hallmark of a government that is beneficial for its country. If you complain that they only had one party, I can only tell you that I fail to see the difference between having one party or two parties that are essentially insignificantly different in those matters that actually matter. Being allowed to choose which bully should beat you up is no choice, it's a false dilemma at best.

Re:So, the NSA had good people too?

[cold fjord]

When right turns to wrong, resistance becomes an obligation.

The problem is that nobody has demonstrated that in this case. All we really get are hyperbole, distortions, or false claims that the government is engaged in oppression.

Your example of the Soviet Union is specious. Being forced to vote for the Communist party is simply window dressing on a dictatorship.

As to the US, you have more than two choices as to party. Although there is broad general agreement on various questions such as "should the government passively allow Americans to be killed," there are many meaningful differences between the main two parties. If you think that is not the case, then please, illuminate us as to what you think is important? What is it that "actually matters" that isn't different between the Democrats and Republicans that you think should be different?

Re: So, the NSA had good people too?

[Anonymous Coward]

Nope 3 peole he sucked in to helping him.
Social Enginnering an Colaterial Damage.

Re:So, the NSA had good people too?

[easyTree]

Nice to know... there are still humans around!

Were humans around:

The memo does not describe their conduct, but says they were barred from the NSA and its systems in August.

Once identified as non-[evil|corrupt|power-mongering|privacy-invading] humans, they were jettisoned lest they bring the tone of the organization up.

Re:So, the NSA had good people too?

[Zontar The Mindless]

Your example of the Soviet Union is specious.

Mkay. Whyzat?

Being forced to vote for the Communist party is simply window dressing on a dictatorship.

Which was precisely Opportunist's point. So, no, not specious at all.

Re:So, the NSA had good people too?

[easyTree]

As to the US, you have more than two choices as to party.

One can only imagine the countrywide-outcry, nay riotous scenario which would develop if there were x, { x : 2 <= x <= 3 } options when choosing beer, football, tv shows - all important choices with longstanding ramifications affecting every aspect of life.

Re:So, the NSA had good people too?

[nbauman]

there are many meaningful differences between the main two parties. If you think that is not the case, then please, illuminate us as to what you think is important? What is it that "actually matters" that isn't different between the Democrats and Republicans that you think should be different?

Let's take the policy issue I know most about, health care. As most people on Slashdot realize, we spend twice as much on health care as most other developed countries because we pass all our health care payments through an unnecessary, inefficient, parasitical private insurance system. According to the polls, most Americans wanted a Medicare-type system. Yet the Democrats gave us a health care system based on a model created by the Heritage Foundation. So we now have an even more inefficient, expensive system that reduces choice.

Of course the basic problem is the politicians for both parties are dependent on campaign contributions from corporations and other groups with a vested interest in the same legislation that the politicians are voting on. In most other developed countries this would be considered bribery, and the politicians would be disgraced and prosecuted.

So both the Democrats and the Republicans are more responsive to the wealthiest 1% than to the rest of us put together.

That's what matters.

Re: So, the NSA had good people too?

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh I don't know, maybe the formation of our great country via the American Revoltion.

Re:So, the NSA had good people too?

[Lumpy]

He will not see it until they hook up electrodes to his nuts. And even then I doubt it.

Re: So, the NSA had good people too?

[Anonymous Coward]

Would you kindly DIAF already, little Eichmann?

Re:So, the NSA had good people too?

[Anonymous Coward]

x, { x : 2 = x = 3 }

Are we restricting x to integers? I vote to include real irrationals, such as -1*(1/2)*2*piii-(0.80085).

Re:So, the NSA had good people too?

[Anonymous Coward]

-1*(1/2)*2*piii-(0.80085)

But that simplifies to pi-(0.80085)! I find Pi without 0.80085 to be unacceptable.

Re:So, the NSA had good people too?

[anagama]

We can take the word of people like you that all is well in the Government, like we've been doing for decades ... or the word of a conservative federal judge who called the programs Orwellian and almost certainly unconstitutional.

We would not be having this discussion without Snowden. Snowden was the only person who took his oat to the Constitution seriously.

As for the GOP and DNC, we basically have two neocon parties, one largely pro-abortion and gay-marriage, the other largely anti-abortion and gay-marriage. If they agreed on those issues, they'd be identical. Interestingly, those two issues don't matter if you get due process free murdered or gulaged.

Re:So, the NSA had good people too?

[anagama]

He's either a total backbirth who somehow manages to type, or being paid by the NSA to troll. I'm guessing the latter, in which case, CF will be hooking up electrodes to other people's nuts without probable cause while exhorting them on the virtues of American values.

Re:So, the NSA had good people too?

[anagama]

That Heritage Foundation stuff comes directly from the plan Nixon offered -- yeah, Tricky Dick. Obama's plan is essentially the same thing with the liberal parts stripped out.

http://www.kaiserhealthnews.or...

Re:So, the NSA had good people too?

[nbauman]

That's right.

That's because Nixon's Secretary of Health, Education and Welfare was Daniel Patrick Moynihan. Moynihan came up with a lot of (relatively) liberal programs, which Nixon supported.

Another one was the guaranteed annual income.

Ralph Nader said that except for foreign policy, the Democrats have moved to the right of Nixon.

Re:So, the NSA had good people too?

[easyTree]

In most other developed countries this would be considered bribery

I can assure you that it is recognized as bribery and that the world has been looking on in horror as your giant flaming snowball* spins out of control.

(*) I like the smell of a mixed metaphor before breakfast.

Re:So, the NSA had good people too?

[Opportunist]

I'll put you in the "brainwashed 'til believing the bull" bin, if you don't mind.

Re:So, the NSA had good people too?

[cold fjord]

You are free to mentally pigeonhole me in any manner that you care to. You should not, however, expect me to acquiesce when addressed with a categorization that I find disagreeable.

Re:So, the NSA had good people too?

[Anonymous Coward]

All we really get are hyperbole, distortions, or false claims that the government is engaged in oppression.

Government is oppression. Government is force. You seem very confused. All governments engage in oppression, that is all that any government is. That is all that any law is. The only question is how far are they willing to go, and what levels of oppression are justified and which are not.

Being forced to vote for the Communist party is simply window dressing on a dictatorship.

Sounds like the U.S.

There is no way to opt out and state you don't want any of them, and they just feed us preselected candidates and then tell us "but you voted for them!" when we complain.

Where or where is the "none of the above" option? Are they that afraid of what people really think?

Where is the "the entire power structure is outdated and inherently corrupt, based on a hierarchy that does not work for anyone but the people on top" option?

Re:So, the NSA had good people too?

[LWATCDR]

"Dictatorships all over the world have to rely on people who "only do their job""
In a democratic society the employees are supposed to be answerable to the elected government and the elected government to the people. It is dangerous when go outside the law. Do you think a murderer should go free if a police officers finds the evidence with an illegal search? Maybe you feel that the answer is yes because a police officer has to follow the law no matter what because you see a lot of danger if the police get's to decide when to follow the law and when not to. The same is true in the case of Snowden and Manning. Those two do not have the right to override the policies and laws of the elected government. Of course if you really feel that Snowden was in the right because the government is out of control you had better be calling for the impeachment of President Obama at the same time.

Re:So, the NSA had good people too?

[Anonymous Coward]

So, the NSA had good people too?

Has. The ratio marginally improved after Snowden left.

Yes it probably has.
What with Snowden setting a good example for other patriotic people to follow.

Re:So, the NSA had good people too?

[Anonymous Coward]

They replaced Snowden by multiple people sabotaging and/or publishing the NSA's evil actions?

Re:So, the NSA had good people too?

[Anonymous Coward]

So who in congress leaked the NSA memo to NBC?

Barred from NSA

[gmuslera]

In related news, Saw VIII will use some new "hidden footage" that will add a lot of realism to the horror series.

Re:Barred from NSA

[Anonymous Coward]

From inside the prisons in your country?

The Saddest Part of the Snowden Revelations

[rmdingler]

It remains to be seen if there will be any real change in the way governments are allowed to use surveillance with impunity.

I watched a President pay lip service to reform and restriction, and I recall some initial outrage in the populace and the media...

but if that's all there is, and this fades away as folks get back to their busy little lives, I am afraid the watchers will go back to work with a confidence reeking of our tacit permission.

Re:The Saddest Part of the Snowden Revelations

[Opportunist]

Why should there be any change? If the Snowden revelations showed us anything, then that nobody gives a fuck. And not just in the US, there've been revelations that the US spied, with the blessing of the local governments, in countries in Europe. Right before elections happened there. Which promptly led to landslide victories of those parties that were essentially guilty of high treason.

Nobody gives a fuck. That's the saddest part.

Re:The Saddest Part of the Snowden Revelations

[Anonymous Coward]

It remains to be seen if there will be any real change in the way governments are allowed to use surveillance with impunity.

I watched a President pay lip service to reform and restriction, and I recall some initial outrage in the populace and the media...

President Barak H. Obama only said the Government will no longer store the data; he favours private corporation(s) to store the data until such time as the Government wants access thereto. Obama is Satan except without the charismatic personality. Every religion in the world warned us of the coming of the Anti-Christ. He is arrived and sits in the Oval Office. I would rather have a philandering president (William Jefferson Clinton) in the Oval Office than a charlatan president (Barak Hussein Obama) nor a war-monger president (George Walker Bush).

Re:The Saddest Part of the Snowden Revelations

[Vitriol Angst]

With the NSA going hard after anyone duped by Snowden, and the President mouthing a bunch of words of concern -- I can guarantee you that they at the very least don't give two fucks.

Re:The Saddest Part of the Snowden Revelations

[Vitriol Angst]

President Barak H. Obama only said the Government will no longer store the data; he favours private corporation(s) to store the data until such time as the Government wants access thereto.

Yeah, that's the exact same "end run around the Constitution" arrangement they were already using.

A private corporation that is motivated by profits is WORSE than the government, which "on a good day with the wind blowing the right way" might have motivations or at least a whimsy to do something for the common good.

Snowden was able to carry off a boatload of their snooping secrets BECAUSE they outsourced a lot of this. The economic model will always, always, always, put profits above all else unless you put a gun to their head. "Security" was just lip service. They will get the lowest wage workers and the lowest cost equipment that will fill the specs. If you don't pay top dollar, you can't get the loyalty of the corrupt people you want.

They'll have to recruit from religious colleges to get people who will be naive enough to NOT KNOW this is wrong, and dutiful enough to do it without decent wages. Fascists tend to love theocrats because they are so damn useful. But if you've got fascism you need three things; Corruption, Loyalty, Intelligence. You can only have two of the three in any one person. This is why corrupt oligarchies and empires kill themselves off -- it's really the only reason Humanity has not quite yet extinguished itself.

In WW II they fought both the East and the West -- because they took orders from idiots. And so their dedicated, loyal and religious people and their intelligent and loyal scientists, and their corrupt and evil Generals could not win with the best military in the world.

The NSA, no matter how many brilliant people they bring in, will still have Rat Bastards, Egomaniacs, and Greedy Morons because those are the only ones you can trust to do the wrong thing on a consistent basis.

It sounds like I've run all over the map here, going from the NSA to WW II and Religious Colleges, but I'm making short work of a larger dynamic that has been going on since the 80's in this country. There is a push towards supporting fundamentalist churches -- because certain power groups find them useful. It's the best way to get people to not fight for their own self interest -- to use the Heaven "lay away" plan. And they aren't looking for a hot war like WW II - -but it's the exact same type of elitists and manipulators at the top of America as were at the bottom of Nazi Germany. Anyone spending any time listening to the biographies of Rumsfeld and Cheney need only change the accent to understand the mindset.

These people are rotten, and they are lapdogs for the super wealthy and connected and if you think the NSA is just about security, you probably were shocked by the Snowden revelations. The NSA is about preserving the status quo, and our military is the muscle for multinational organizations, and they support religious fundamentalism here and elsewhere because they create the justifications and make the best useful idiots.

Re:The Saddest Part of the Snowden Revelations

[Anonymous Coward]

I've watched over the last 5 years where every complete failure of the Federal Government that was done by the DNC has been blamed on the GOP and everyone applauds it. Healthcare.gov? The GOP prevented it from working. Spying? That was the GOP that started it and refuses to stop it. Deficits? Thats the GOP's fault. No balanced budget? The GOP wrote a bad budget. Drone strikes? The GOP forced them to do it. Guns in Mexico killing hundreds? The GOP made them do it. Holder lying to Congress? The GOP pointed it out and no one would have known without them.

They have completely trashed the country and blamed it all on their political opponents and you all cheered every time they did. The real problem here is the citizens that cheer failure because they think they can blame the "other guys".

This last week the GOP had a moment where they could have finally stepped up and did the right thing with the debt ceiling, but they decided not to. So you have beaten down the only opposition to a dictatorship where they won't do the obvious right thing anymore for fear of being blamed. Your biased media and support has caused this and now I don't think there is a way to ever correct it.

You ruined this country by supporting an idiot through thick and thin and just now realized how dumb you were for it.

Re:The Saddest Part of the Snowden Revelations

[Anonymous Coward]

Translation: The problem isn't with the people in charge, you've decided to squarely put the balme on people who go to church.

You are an idiot and a bigot. THIS is why this country is so bad off, people with opinions like the above just try and spin anything wrong off the people in charge and put it on people they don't like because they are bigots.

Please stop voting.

Re:The Saddest Part of the Snowden Revelations

[easyTree]

I am afraid the watchers will go back to work with a confidence reeking of our tacit permission.

For me, this is the core of the problem; they're not asking for permission and our lack of permission has no teeth or even gums.

Re:The Saddest Part of the Snowden Revelations

[easyTree]

If they did give a fuck, how would it look?

You might not have noticed but we in the free world live in fur-lined cages guarded by retarded jack-booted thugs empowered by their masters. There are few opportunities for change beyond a change of mind; for that, widespread access to accurate information is required; not coincidentally, control of information is the front on which open battle is raging. Once secured, it's game over, people.

Re:The Saddest Part of the Snowden Revelations

[easyTree]

Whoosh

Re:The Saddest Part of the Snowden Revelations

[Anonymous Coward]

They'll have to recruit from religious colleges to get people who will be naive enough to NOT KNOW this is wrong, and dutiful enough to do it without decent wages. Fascists tend to love theocrats because they are so damn useful. But if you've got

The NSA is about preserving the status quo, and our military is the muscle for multinational organizations, and they support religious fundamentalism here and elsewhere because they create the justifications and make the best useful idiots.

Just look at where the NSA has buildings to know that this is true.

Helped or taken in by Snowden ?

[Alain Williams]

It is not all clear. If someone ''helped'' then they, in some way, knew what Snowden was about and so sharing-passwords/what-ever was a kind of tacit approval. If they simply acted to a job related request from a co-worker and did not know what Snowden was doing - can that be called helping ?

Whatever: this story still has the wrong focus, it is about Snowden. Snowden should not be the story. The story should be about the illegal activities of the NSA.

Re:Helped or taken in by Snowden ?

[cold fjord]

The story should be about the illegal activities of the NSA.

That would be a very short and boring story indeed as it doesn't really seem to exist in any meaningful way. The big story is NSA activities that some people find disagreeable.

Re:Helped or taken in by Snowden ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Whatever: this story still has the wrong focus, it is about Snowden. Snowden should not be the story. The story should be about the illegal activities of the NSA.

Are you willing to put the first bullet into the heads of the NSA? Short of assassination of government officials involved in the illegal activities there is no chance the situation will improve. Strap the Director of the NSA to a cruise missile and launch it at the NSA data centre hidden in a mountain. Shave Obama bald and tar and feather the bastard. Paint every complicit US Congressperson with an indelible red dye and every complicit US Senator with an indelible orange dye.

Re:Helped or taken in by Snowden ?

[Anonymous Coward]

One judge strongly disagrees. If SCOTUS rules against the NSA, will you change your stance?

Re:Helped or taken in by Snowden ?

[Zontar The Mindless]

I fail to see why my rights as a US citizen are disregarded by US intelligence agencies operating overseas. And then there's my family in the US, whose rights are violated every time they communicate with me, or I with them.

And before you start giving me any fast talk about borders and jurisdiction, please bear in mind that I remain liable for US taxes no matter where I live. So, in effect, I'm supposed to pay for these violations of my rights, and those of my family. Nice, huh.

Re:Helped or taken in by Snowden ?

[cold fjord]

One trial court judge and made a preliminary ruling, the final decision hasn't been reached yet. If he continues to rule that way his decision will almost certainly be overturned on appeal.

If SCOTUS rules that some NSA activity is unconstitutional it would be against prior precedent, but possible. In that event I would acknowledge that the law has changed.

Re:Helped or taken in by Snowden ?

[Anonymous Coward]

In that event I would acknowledge that the law has changed.

Wow. You really are a mindless drone, aren't you? Authority figures can influence your opinions so easily. Not that any of this is a surprise.

Re:Helped or taken in by Snowden ?

[cold fjord]

You seem to miss the point that the Supreme Court gets to say what the law is, it isn't just an opinion when they say it, unlike for you. If you don't acknowledge that the Supreme Court decides what the law is, then you don't really either understand or have a useful opinion on the matter. You are then left as a fringe nutcase.

Re:Helped or taken in by Snowden ?

[Anonymous Coward]

The Supreme Court has a bit of power, but that's all that separates them from normal people. If the Supreme Court were right 100% of the time, they wouldn't even be able to contradict precedent, as that would be paradoxical.

If you don't acknowledge that the Supreme Court decides what the law is

I acknowledge that the Supreme Court has certain powers, but its decisions can be criticized, and it can be wrong. If need be, constitutional amendments can be passed (not the same as debunking their previous interpretations) or judges can eventually be replaced (hopefully to ones that correct past wrongs when given the opportunity). As for usefulness, well, your opinion is completely useless to me, too.

Maybe you should just get a mind of your own and stop worshiping authority figures; it's quite unamerican. Sadly, you have lots of company, but popularity means little on the topic of correctness.

Re:Helped or taken in by Snowden ?

[Anonymous Coward]

So you give up defending your statement and turn to personal attacks. You lose.

Re:Helped or taken in by Snowden ?

[Frosty Piss]

Here is the memo that this story is based on:

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/ms...

Re:Helped or taken in by Snowden ?

[gIobaljustin]

You're illogical. Attacking someone does not mean you "lose," and there is really no way to "lose" an argument to begin with, as they are not games with well-defined objectives. About the only way you, as an individual in an argument, can "lose" is if you are convinced by your opponent, but that's it.

I'm not sure what the point of your post was, but it surely wasn't logical. Personal attacks are perfectly valid, though they do nothing to discredit your opponents' arguments.

Re:Helped or taken in by Snowden ?

[anagama]

Are you talking about Smith v. Maryland?

Here are some distinguishing characteristics:

In Smith, the police targeted a specific individual for telephone metadata, they most certainly could have gotten a warrant based on the information they had about that person (too lazy I guess), the pen register on Smith's phone was for a short period of time, the pen register was removed right away.

It would be extremely easy for the SCOTUS to limit Smith to its facts and find that a program which was not targeted, for which there was no probable cause, and was unlimited in duration, violates the Constitution.

Let's hope, then bootlickers such as yourself can suck it.

Re:Helped or taken in by Snowden ?

[Anonymous Coward]

I am convinced that you are a fool.

Re:Helped or taken in by Snowden ?

[cold fjord]

I fail to see why my rights as a US citizen are disregarded by US intelligence agencies operating overseas.

What makes you think that? That isn't what NSA says. Are you saying that is wrong? Do you have any evidence?

Frequently Asked Questions - Oversight

4. Are U.S. persons outside of the United States afforded protection?

Yes, the privacy rights of U.S. persons are protected regardless of their location.

--------

And then there's my family in the US, whose rights are violated every time they communicate with me, or I with them.

Another assertion. Any evidence?

Re:Helped or taken in by Snowden ?

[gIobaljustin]

Truly?

Re:Helped or taken in by Snowden ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure, just deny the NSA has any illegal foreign operations if that makes you feel better or sleep easier.

How many others?

[davecb]

In an organization as large as the NSA, how many

• - sysadmins have left with saleable information in their pockets
• - actual spies have shipped data to <enemy of the week>
• - ordinary staff have oopsed and let data leak

Mr Snowdon is the tip of the iceberg!

Re:How many others?

[cold fjord]

According to my calculator, Snowden was an ice cube floating in a hot tub.

NSA was previously reported to be downsizing their system administration staff by 90%, and implementing the two man rule, on top of completing the rollout of new security systems to catch this sort of thing.

Besides, out of about 40,000 NSA employees:

About one person per year loses control and spies on a love interest, for which they are disciplined and lose their job.
A couple of people per decade, more or less, engage in "whistle blowing," sometimes for what they believe is waste, or fraud, sometimes over what they think is illegal behavior.
A couple of people per decade are arrested for spying - essentially none of which have had Snowden's access.
Once in a generation or two you see a crime rising to above the pack, but hardly anything has yet really approached Snowden's level of betrayal.

Re:How many others?

[davecb]

Thanks for the background!

In your opinion, are these kinds of numbers consistent with what we've seen with other security services? Canada seems to suffer about one full-fledged security fiasco a decade, ranging for burning barns to a naval sub-leftenant spying for Putin's Russia last year. The STASI was reported to be substantially worse.

My suspicions came from civilian experience admistering Trusted Solaris, where the standard sysadmin kludge was to assign both the root and security-administrator roles to the same person, so they could unscrew disfeatures of the security policy in use. The latter tended to be overcomplex, and regularly had my brain bleeding out of my ears (:-)) As in other nominally secure contexts, the sysadmins and DBAs were the weak link, as they were tasked with making the system work, as oppose to keeping it secure.

Re:How many others?

[Imrik]

Just keep in mind, those are just the ones that get caught.

Re:How many others?

[joss]

So, you believe the NSA hardly ever fucks up. Fascinating, and who told you this exactly ?

Re:How many others?

[cold fjord]

So, you believe the NSA hardly ever fucks up.

Where do you think I wrote that, exactly?

Re:How many others?

[whoever57]

About one person per year loses control and spies on a love interest, and later admits to it.

FTFY.

Furthermore, given that the NSA has a history of lying and misdirection, why believe any numbers that the NSA produces?

Re:How many others?

[cold fjord]

The NSA has a history of not wanting to say anything, or be in the papers. That is different than lying or misdirection.

If you don't want to believe, then why ask?

according to cold fjord

[Anonymous Coward]

which is worth the electrons it's printed on my screen with.

Re:according to cold fjord

[cold fjord]

There don't seem to be many people replicating Kim Philby's actions as Snowden did. That would seem to be suggestive.

Re:according to cold fjord

[Zontar The Mindless]

You don't seriously believe the two cases have anything substantial in common, yet you invite us to do so.

Re:according to cold fjord

[easyTree]

There don't seem to be many people replicating Kim Philby's actions as Snowden did. That would seem to be suggestive.

Strawman much? Perhaps it suggests that the evil fucks far outweigh those with a conscience and have greater ability to mete-out sanctions which apply on a world-wide scale? Just guessing though.

Re:according to cold fjord

[cold fjord]

That isn't a strawman, it is a parallel. (You will notice I am not attacking that idea.)

Snowden's actions are aiding the foreign adversaries of both America and the West.

Re:according to cold fjord

[PolygamousRanchKid]

Kim Philby was dedicated to the International Communist cause. You can read all about his intentions in his own book, "My Secret War". Although he tried to confuse the West with some intentional disinformation about specific intelligence operations, he was very honest and open about why he did what he did. He supported the Soviet Union because he believed in Communism . . . until he fled to Russia and saw what is actually was like in practice.

Ironically, Philby, who provided the Soviet Union with enormous amounts of strategic and tactical intelligence, was not trusted by the Soviets. The KGB wanted nothing to do with him. They figured, once a traitor, always a traitor, and didn't want him in their rank and file. Only very later in his life he received a token position at the KGB.

Snowden, on the other hand, has been very open and fervent in stating that his actions were NOT to harm the West or help the current Russian oligarchy. Snowden, is fighting for awareness of an American intelligence system that has clearly run off its rails, and is committing acts that are totally contrary to the beliefs upon which the nation was founded. Snowden is not a Communist.

If England's King George III would have had the NSA, the American Revolution would have never succeeded.

. . . and now the Queen of England has named the future King of England "George". Coincidence . . . I think not! Soon the Queen's proxy government in the US will be coming to confiscate your Long Kentucky Rifles, as well as your assault rifles. Don't trust anyone named "George!"

. . . on the other hand, the American Revolution had "George" Washington, so I don't think the "George" enigma has been settled yet, and requires further investigation . . .

Re:according to cold fjord

[cold fjord]

Snowden being another Philby, with the add-on of enhanced Soviet style political warfare, would explain matters quite well. Soviet tradecraft, of the sort taught to Russia's current leaders, was among the best. There are former Soviet bloc intelligence officers that believe that it is practically certain that Snowden was a Russian asset, if not at least a willing stooge. Not many years ago this would have resulted in probably more than one Hero of the Soviet Union, Orders of Lenin, and Red Banners being awarded. The damage to US intelligence is devastating, to allied agencies hardly less so, and the political repercussions will echo for years to come. It is a masterpiece of work. The Chekists must be rightfully bursting with pride.

And perhaps this was just a ruse, or maybe it did happen but it was cloaked by the more seasoned guidance Snowden received from his Russian lawyer - a man on the public council of the FSB and a crony of former KGB officer Putin.

Re:according to cold fjord

[anagama]

Right, got it. Those Ruskies manipulated Obama into revoking Snowden's passport and grounding international flights in order to create the extended layover in the USSR necessary for Snowden to come home from the cold as planned. Why don't you also tell us about how BP is repressing free energy devices or how NASA is hiding who really built the face on Mars? Those make equal sense.

Re:according to cold fjord

[cold fjord]

Snowden's passport was revoked before he left Hong Kong, and that didn't seem to stop him, did it? Snowden didn't actually enter into Russian territory until he was given asylum. It was mentioned at the time that it wouldn't necessarily stop him from continuing his journey.

Which flights out of Russia were grounded? I don't recall any. (And it was Russia, not the USSR.)

If you want to pursue fringe theories about BP and NASA, feel free, but I'm not interested.

It doesn't look like you "got it."

Re:according to cold fjord

[Anonymous Coward]

And the actions of his peers are aiding criminal activity by the NSA itself, an agency whose "information gathering" has been fraught with political motivation overriding actual data. These people couldn't be trusted to find the men's room without a native guide, who would overcharge them and leave them to a Taliban ladies room just to watch them get slaughtered for laughs. And these are the idiots we're going to entrust to protect civil rights for domestic monitoring under the excuse that "we're 50% certain there's a foreigner somehwere in the conversation, so we'll just collect *EVERYTHING* without any actual suspicioin and sort it out later"

I call that reporting verifiable domestic crime: these clowns give such bad intel that it's *better* to have them dethroned and exposed rather than rely on the corrupt, pre-coooked data they're notorious for presenting from foreign sources. They're leapt wholehog into industrial and political, and are not a demonstrably competent military espionage group.

Re:according to cold fjord

[anagama]

Shit, they way you were talking spy-skills, I thought the USSR was alive and well considering how vastly awesome their spy apparatus is -- I mean, that they could manipulate so many random world events just to make it LOOK like Snowden got grounded in the USSR .... and you and I both know the USSR didn't go away -- it still exists and only PRETENDS to be Russia. It's all just like the face on mars, perpetual energy, and now "Snowden -- Soviet Spy" -- those fuckers are really good and behind it all. Probably even behind Beta.

Re:according to cold fjord

[easyTree]

Snowden's actions are aiding the American people and the people of foreign nations; this is why he's being considered for the Nobel Peace Prize.

The cry of "traitor" is and always will be a mere manipulation; an incitement to "do as you are told or face the consequences"; it's "think of the children" on a national scale; a means by which to manipulate anyone who does not wish to be seen to announce themselves as being different; a means by which to trigger the punishment of someone by their brainwashed peers. To be seen to demonstrate one's apart-ness is to single oneself out for special attention.

This simple pattern is used by manipulators unable to defend their position using reason or morality. It's up for question whether it's detestable more because of the low opinion held of the intended targets by those employing the tactic or because it has shown itself to be so effective, time and again throughout history.

Re:according to cold fjord

[Anonymous Coward]

On a related note, an anonymous coward with his cold feet was also spreading this propaganda in an another Snowden story. Quite an infestation. http://yro.slashdot.org/commen...

Re: according to cold fjord

[Anonymous Coward]

You are the Kim Philby you traitor.

Re:according to cold fjord

[Gr8Apes]

There don't seem to be too many people replicating the actions of George Washington, James Madison, Thomas Jefferson, nor Benjamin Franklin either. What are you trying to say? Note, in case you're slow, they all defied their rightful government of the time, and committed far worse actions than Snowden. Or are you an ardent Benedict Arnold supporter? I'm sure the British believe him honorable.

Re:according to cold fjord

[cold fjord]

There don't seem to be too many people replicating the actions of George Washington, James Madison, Thomas Jefferson, nor Benjamin Franklin either.

Really? I suggest you read that, and that you follow the link to the actual article if you can. (The article was freely available and now appears to be behind a paywall, although it may just be a problem with my system.)

Note, in case you're slow, they all defied their rightful government of the time, and committed far worse actions than Snowden.

They formed a new country, the United States, to preserve the rights they had previously enjoyed, and correct wrongs of Parliament and the King. Snowden's actions are completely understandable if his loyalties lie with another country, as you could be implying, and appears to be the case.

Re:according to cold fjord

[Anonymous Coward]

to preserve the rights they had previously enjoyed, and correct wrongs of Parliament and the King

Change Parliament and King to Congress and President, and it's exactly the same as what Snowden is doing. He is trying to preserve the rights American citizens previously had. He is probably happy with the country as it was before the abuses though, so I'm sure he would be happy with calling the new country the same name.Then we can avoid all the waste and hassle of a name change, and it would have the added benefit of not confusing simpletons like you.

Re:according to cold fjord

[cold fjord]

Sorry, but no, what Snowden is doing isn't the same at all. He is more Benedict Arnold than anything if you are using a Colonial reference, although Kim Philby is a better fit. If you think Americans have lost rights then you are simply uninformed, or more likely misinformed. Snowden will almost certainly end up calling Russia his home after so badly screwing the US and its allies. You don't even realize how badly you've been taken. I can at least understand what is going on whereas you apparently don't. Too bad.

Re:according to cold fjord

[Anonymous Coward]

Given you actively support the real traitors (NSA) to your country in their provably traitorous actions you're a traitor.

How does it feel traitor, to claim that other people are "taken" or "misinformed" when there's plenty of evidence the NSA did something that was illegal and they lied about it to Congress.

Just because Snowden broke his contract to tell others about the traitorous actions the NSA did does not make him a traitor to the USA. It may make him a traitor to a criminal organization, but boohoo...

Re:according to cold fjord

[Anonymous Coward]

They might be, in a slight and indirect way, but more importantly, they are informing the citizens of both America and the West of the evil performed by their governments and their allies. This is much more important and fundamental. People cannot do anything about human rights violations if they do not even know about them.

Exactly

[Anonymous Coward]

People have taken their freedom for granted for so long, they don't see any of the NSA spying as a threat. As far as I can see, most folks in the general public are quite confident that this only applies to the terrorists. I was hoping that because this happened under Obama's watch, Fox News and the Talk Radio guys would keep beating it home, but no,, they're still going after Obamacare and Benghazi.

This is where the Republicans can shine and be the party of Freedom but instead they're wasting time on BS issues.

In 2016, we will see a normal election. The issues will be "entitlement" programs (without ever naming the real money sucker: Medicare because it's for all those old people - even the Tea Partiers wont touch it.), abortion, taxes, gay marriage.

We'll have people who like to fool themselves into thinking they're informed and they will listen intently on the platforms of the candidates.

I don't know why because when they get into office, they never keep their promises and they almost always toe the party line (Jimmy Carter the exception.).

It's all a popularity contest based on who can sound the best, who's taller, and other superficial things. That's why I wish our founding fathers made political service required for all citizens - no career politicians. Or at the very least, bring in term limits for the legislatures.

Re:Exactly

[Imrik]

Nobody in government wants to reduce government powers.

Re:Exactly

[easyTree]

Ask yourself why *they* stopped shooting presidents.

climate of fear in NSA will drive out normals

[Anonymous Coward]

The NSA is running a witch-hunt for anyone who thought they were innocently bending the rules for a friendly coworker. This kind of policy is how you destroy a cordial work environment. Only a certain kind of person will be left at the NSA.

Re:climate of fear in NSA will drive out normals

[Anonymous Coward]

Clearly you haven't been exposed to the freak show that is the NSA.

A man who walks around the OPS 2 cafeteria picking out uneaten food from the trash to save money and reduce food waste. A woman who keeps score of her bowel movements on the bathroom wall using smears of her poop (which admittedly I never saw for myself but female coworkers constantly complained about). A man who carries a thermometer who refuses to sit in a chair if it is above 98.6F so that he doesn't have to feel someone's body heat on his rear.

To think they gave me such a hard time during my poly and background investigation.

I can post many more examples. Working there (as a contractor) was an experience in the surreal. I couldn't handle it and left after a year and a half for NASA which is just a few miles down the BW Parkway. Much better (assuming my funding doesn't dry up... a different issue).

And don't even get me started about the code quality of which I can't really comment on. One example being that a guy argued vehemently about framing every single line individually in a try-block.

The only redeeming factor is that they really are motivated with the citizens bests interests in mind, and that is no shit (assuming you are American)... but somewhere things went horribly wrong and they diverged from that ideal. But that is the view from the bottom. I have no clue what the higher ups had in mind - but that said neither do you.

Re:climate of fear in NSA will drive out normals

[Opportunist]

In other words, a collection of the most anal retentive control freaks you could find. Pretty much what I was expecting.

Re:climate of fear in NSA will drive out normals

[Anonymous Coward]

In other words, a collection of the most anal retentive control freaks you could find. Pretty much what I was expecting.

Yeah I was not expecting to hear any revelations about Ellie Bishop (http://ncis.wikia.com/wiki/Eleanor_Bishop) types working at the NSA. ;-)

Re:climate of fear in NSA will drive out normals

[cold fjord]

You seem to think that about the entire US government anyway.

Re:climate of fear in NSA will drive out normals

[Anonymous Coward]

This is the author of the post you replied to.... who said anything about control? Anal - ok, most definately - but controlling... how little you know. If anything those I saw were far far far more willing to yield control to someone else than your average person... even if that someone else was unknown to them. If they ever questioned anything (which was very rare indeed), the answer was that they were not cleared for that information - an answer they willingly accepted with very little qualms.

Remember, this is a place where the slightest hint of extroversion is considered a fault - more so, it identifies you as a risk. The simply act of having a tendency to so much as talk to others - about anything at all - is a red flag to them. I shit you not.

Now, those that did the controlling... well maybe you are right. But I seriously doubt it because they come from the same batch as the weirds I outlined above. So easily manipulated... because that is what they look for in a candidate.

Re:climate of fear in NSA will drive out normals

[Anonymous Coward]

the NSA looks for Asburgers nutjobs because they are very easy to control.

Re:climate of fear in NSA will drive out normals

[Opportunist]

Anal retentive? Not really, that takes a special kind of person. Corrupt, yes. Inefficient, yes. For hire and sale, yes. But not anal retentive.

Re:climate of fear in NSA will drive out normals

[Anonymous Coward]

Not if she's smearing it on the wall, no.

I guess this should have been expected

[NotSoHeavyD3]

I mean when I read his bio on Wikipedia nothing came out to me that said he was some sort of uber hacker so it seemed weird just how much stuff he managed to get. Oh well, hopefully since there's at least 3 other people at the NSA that have some sort of moral compass there are more in there as well. (But knowing how these things go they'll probably just fire everybody that hasn't drunk the kool-ade.)

Re:I guess this should have been expected

[anagama]

He may or may not be an uber-hacker, I have no idea. That said, if you are handed root, you don't need to be a hacker at all.

It's not about Snowden!

[j-turkey]

This feels like a big fat smoke screen to me. This isn't about Snowden, it's about the federal governments wholesale wiretapping and warehousing of our personal data, an unprecedented overstep of policing and surveillance power. It's about secret FISA courts and undisclosed secret warrants that are rubber-stamped by appointed-for-life (unaccountable) federal judges in the name of national security. It's about a lack of oversight.

Every time we make this about Snowden and how the data was collected, "they" win a little bit more.

Re:It's not about Snowden!

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes it is about Snowden. And who is helping him both in the country and out of the country. And what his agenda is, because it wasn't brought up in any election debate outside of Ron Paul's camp. And it was a fringe position there at the time.

This story has been played out and the vast majority of the people care a lot more about the weather, Olympics, jobs, their financial outlook or a bunch of other things that are more important than this. Foreigners care and are more than happy to see our power get taken down by our own traitor.

Re:It's not about Snowden!

[j-turkey]

Yes it is about Snowden. And who is helping him both in the country and out of the country. And what his agenda is, because it wasn't brought up in any election debate outside of Ron Paul's camp. And it was a fringe position there at the time.

This story has been played out and the vast majority of the people care a lot more about the weather, Olympics, jobs, their financial outlook or a bunch of other things that are more important than this. Foreigners care and are more than happy to see our power get taken down by our own traitor.

Agenda? He has made that clear. He's no Assange, he's not in this for the publicity. Have you bothered to watch the interview or read the articles?

American power taken down? That is an absolutely ridiculous statement. This is a government being is embarrassed by its own actions. Traitor? That's also bogus language - traitor to a government or its people? Which is more important, the nation and what our people find acceptable or protecting a government? I think the former - especially when the government is breaking its own rules, and circumventing the intended legal oversight. That's why it's not about Snowden...it's about what our federal government is doing - more inside its borders than outside of its borders; but if it takes an international embarrassment to begin an actual discussion of what we find acceptable as a society, so be it.

Re:It's not about Snowden!

[Anonymous Coward]

Who are the three people at the NSA that helped Snowden?

Sadly the rest of the NSA didn't help him

[Subm]

TFA Headline: "Three former NSA workers accused of aiding Snowden"

A more responsible headline: "The rest of the NSA accused of violating the Fourth Amendment rights of the entire nation, undermining the interests of the nation and its people, and destabilizing the checks and balances keeping the nation strong for over two centuries."

Re:Sadly the rest of the NSA didn't help him

[Anonymous Coward]

TFA Headline: "Three former NSA workers accused of aiding Snowden"

A bit deceptive. They weren't aiding him in the sense that they were intentionally helping him spy. They aided him by falling prey to social engineering tactics.

"Let he who is without blame cast the first stone"

[redelm]

'fess up -- who amongst us has NEVER EVER used someone else's login credentials to do some task? Perhaps the inexperienced, yet to understand security hypocrisy.

The entire yelpdesk industry lives by taking Remote Control" of users' machines.

Careful DICE

[Stormy Dragon]

I realize your new business model depends on sensationalist clickbait headlines, but you're getting pretty close to libel here.

The original article makes it clear that the NSA employee question did allow Snowden to get access to his logon credentials, it was not part of a deliberate attempt to assist him in stealing classified information. Describing him as a "helper" implies active collaboration. You're basically accusing him of a serious felony with absolutely no evidence to suggest that you're correct.

Scapegoats must be found!

[AnotherBlackHat]

Unable to put Snowden on trial, the NSA has decided to sacrifice three other employees.

I look forward to the circus of their trial, I hear they'll be serving bread.

Re:Justice

[Anonymous Coward]

String 'em all up!

You first, you treasonous bootlicking pussy boy.

Meh. Old news.

[PPH]

Practically everyone in the private security and private investigations businesses has a few buddies in law enforcement and intelligence agencies. Access to restricted data for their benefit has been going on for years. Swapping login credentials to gain access to different silos of information as a part of this practice is pretty common. The only thing Snowden did that was different was to dump this data wholesale (more or less) in the lap of the press.

Heck, even the press and some well known authors have intelligence agency connections that they use to get their stories (either news or fiction) on the right track.

They were barred from the NSA and its systems

[Trax3001BBS]

Well that will teach them. They were most likely asked to leave or get a ruler across their knuckles.

Re:"Let he who is without blame cast the first sto

[Trax3001BBS]

Re:"Let he who is without blame cast the first stone"

From out of the crowd a rock was thrown and hit him upside the face.
Mom! I told you to stay home.

ah, couldn't help it...

Looks at schedule, "yep, time to feed the trolls".

[rts008]

"Good doggy, here's a dog biscuit." said the NSA to 'cold fjord'.

BTW, which category of troll would you classify yourself? I'm just curious, mind you.

There is one group worse than the NSA

[Anonymous Coward]

and that is their apologists who troll the likes of Slashdot saying variants of 'nothing to see here, move along'.

It is not about scapegoats

[bussdriver]

They don't care about anything except the public finding out the truth.

A big part of that is terrorism against their staff and the press to make sure they never dare oppose them. They will make strong "examples" out of deviants and just like in history, the more desperate they get to prevent it, the more extreme the "examples".

The benefit of knowing some history is why they are not dumping acid on the faces of these people opposing them; something the Taliban has yet to learn (poor education; history repeats.)

Wanna play silly word games? Okay....

[rts008]

"If you don't want to believe John Clapper, then why ask?"
Fixed that for you.

Hmmm...most people quit shoveling when they find they are in the bottom of a deep hole, but not you!

Keep digging, the spectacle is hilarious from up here at ground level!

You may even end up a 'Wile E. Coyote, Supergenius: Dedicated to the Mission' Award nominee at this rate!

Now, I'm off to set up my popcorn maker....

Re:Wanna play silly word games? Okay....

[anagama]

Cut him some slack, it's his job to grovel in and shovel shit. Don't blame him for following orders. /sarcasm.

Re:Wanna play silly word games? Okay....

[cold fjord]

That wasn't really a good fix.

Wyden’s Stunt Was Congress at its Worst

Re:Wanna play silly word games? Okay....

[whoever57]

That wasn't really a good fix.

Wyden's Stunt Was Congress at its Worst

That link points to an opinion, not facts, and the opinion about Wyden is based on a falsehood.

Re:Wanna play silly word games? Okay....

[rts008]

That link changes nothing.
Plenty good enough 'fix' for the likes of your class of comments.

The fact that Clapper lied under oath to congress is still a fact.

All that link shows is that Clapper played the game by choice, and was caught. If he was not involved, then he could not be so easily trapped. He was in deep over his head. Guilty as charged. Case closed. Period.

That link doesn't change anything at all. In fact, it just shows that the lawbreaking, anti-constitutional, lying criminals have become more numerous and blatant about their agendas than before.

It actually makes Clapper look worse, for willingly playing the game and getting caught so easily.

You still have not answered my question, your hand waving has not distracted me.

Re:Wanna play silly word games? Okay....

[cold fjord]

Since Congress was already informed by means of classified briefings and reports, then no, he didn't lie to Congress. It was Wyden that was playing games, and for some reason you don't acknowledge that. Your diktat doesn't change anything.

Re:Wanna play silly word games? Okay....

[cold fjord]

Wyden's misconduct is clear to anyone open to the facts.

Re:Wanna play silly word games? Okay....

[whoever57]

The NSA's misconduct is clear to anyone open to the facts.

FTFY

Re:Looks at schedule, "yep, time to feed the troll

[rts008]

What?
Just what are you even talking about.
You haven't been speaking any truth here in this thread.
And just what 'power' are you speaking to?

You still haven't answered my question, BTW.

Re:"Let he who is without blame cast the first sto

[Anonymous Coward]

does sudo - u count?

Long stretch

[Anonymous Coward]

... to allied agencies hardly less so ...

In what way has the USA suffered more than CAN/AUS/UK/NZ? Having a constitution which disallows the very acts they're committing hasn't changed their behaviour. The USA still dictates the international treaties on extradition, banking, illicit and legal drugs, copyright and counterfeiting. That's why many people knew the USA was spying on everybody long before Snowden proved it.

Broken Security

[Stonefish]

The key problem with these networks is that there the system which keeps content secure however this content is created on ordinary windows PC and file shares. You create content with word and then you upload this into system X. System X is secure but there's a copy on the local network. Also when viewing content it is downloaded to be viewed in word or powerpoint. ie it goes outside the system into the MS world. The logging in windows is very obscure and rarely leveraged in a manner which audits read only access. From the results so far the following can be ascertained.
1. The windows logging wasn't up to the task and they have no idea what was taken
2. They don't want to move away from the present windows centric systems so poor system design isn't being highlighted
3 They don't use two factor authentication
What they are trying to do is blame administrators when it's their system which is fundamentally broken and leaks like a sieve. Yes they have a safe but the valuables are being left on the outside.

Re:Broken Security

[chriscappuccio]

They actually do use two factor authentication. These stories are considered unlikely at best by people who actually use these networks.

Political Action Committee

[Anonymous Coward]

... people who go to church.

It's a change from blaming the people who go to a synagogue. Besides Vitriol+Angst is correct. Since the '80s, christian churches have become a super-PAC. The Republicans are anti-science, anti-gay and pro-life for a reason: That power group gets instant support thanks to American politicizing of the bible.

... people they don't like because they are bigots.

Guess what? In your comment, you did exactly this.

selective bias

[Anonymous Coward]

... GOP that started it and refuses to stop it.

Yes the Republicans started it. But Obama claims he is the leader so now it is his responsibility. Everyone here, except you, knows that Obama refuses to stop it.

... won't do the obvious right thing ...

The Republicans had the balls to oppose Obama when he wanted to close the Git-mo torture camp. They also attempted to blackmail congress; twice. Don't forget their spokesperson Romney implied that half of people in the USA were irrelevant to the federal government because they didn't pay federal taxes.

Re:Looks at schedule, "yep, time to feed the troll

[cold fjord]

You still haven't answered my question, BTW.

Unsurprisingly, your question is a false choice. None apply.

Playing with Boomerangs again.....

[rts008]

Your diktat doesn't change anything.

Same back at you.
Where's my answer?

Re:Playing with Boomerangs again.....

[cold fjord]

Check the other thread.

Re:Playing with Boomerangs again.....

[rts008]

Where's the answer to my question?

Re:Playing with Boomerangs again.....

[Anonymous Coward]

Can't be troubled to read?

Troll feeding time over now...

[rts008]

I can and do read.
But apparently that reply was modded below my reading threshold of '0', and was never presented to me to read.

Having read the answer, it's just more handwaving, as 'cold fjord' is a well known troll here.

Which tells me that others with mod points are modding 'cold' fjord' down faster than notice of reply gets to me.
That fact speaks volumes for the value of those posts. In other words, many feel the same as I about 'cold fjord' just being a troll.

As for your link to his reply, and considering the value of that reply, thanks anyhow...for nothing of importance.

If it was not for the fact that 'cold fjord' occasionally posts some interesting comments on other topics, I would just mark him for so his/her comments had -5 and would never see them.

Well, troll feeding time is over, so save your 'cold fjord' defense...I won't play that game any longer today.

Now we'll find out what they would've done to

[bobvious]

Now we'll find out what they would've done (or will do) to Snowden if they can get their hands on him. Or, will they hold these three hostage to try to get Snowden to give himself up?

There Is no subject

[Anonymous Coward]

Hehehehehehehe Nice

Lumpy how'd "eating your words" taste?

[Anonymous Coward]

ROTFLMAO @ "Chumpy" -> http://yro.slashdot.org/commen...

(You sure "talk a good game" -> http://games.slashdot.org/comm... but you can't even produce a MERE SCRIPT!, windbag...)

You aren't even on the leve of a "script kiddie", & full of HOT AIR!

You certainly won't reply there in that 2nd link I posted either, as that would remove your downmods to my posts like this one you can't validly disprove or justify your downmod on -> http://games.slashdot.org/comm...

Oh, I suspect that IS the case here (simply logging out of a registered account & trolling by ac is a common troll trick around here OR using alternate registered 'luser' accounts sockpuppets to do the job will also, & Lumpy is LOADED with those & trolling - which doesn't matter: He PROVES he's all talk, no action (or skills, OR brains, lol))

(You're all TALK, & NO action "CHUMPY!)

* :)

(You know it, I know it, & so does anyone reading AND laughing their asses off @ you now... lol!)

APK

P.S.=> Answer the question in the subject-line Lumpy - since you had to "eat your wrods" in the 1st link above flavored with your FOOT IN YOUR MOUTH + the "bitter taste of SELF-defeat", lol...

... apk