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Toyota Describes Combustion Engine That Generates Electricity Directly

cartechboy writes: "While electric cars are now more available than ever, combustion engines will remain for decades to come. Now auto engineers are working to refine combustion power as part of cars that are increasingly electrified, including plug-in hybrids. Toyota's new 'Free Piston Engine Linear Generator' (or FPEG) shows us one potential way. Linear engines eliminate the rotating crankshaft of conventional engines in favor of a single chamber, in which a piston moves forward and backward. A linear engine has no crankshaft, nor connecting rods. In their place is a gas-filled chamber, the compression of which functions like a spring — returning the piston after the expansion / combustion phases of a typical combustion cycle. This back-and-forth motion can be turned into energy, when you haven't got a crankshaft and the mechanically-useful rotation it produces. While linear engines are far from new, and Toyota's test units are only 10 kW (13 horsepower), a pair of them can still produce enough electricity for a Yaris- or Corolla-sized vehicle to cruise on the highway at 75 mph."

234 comments

  1. Efficiency? by Dan+East · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The real question is how efficient is it? The article doesn't say. It might be simpler mechanically than using a crankshaft to generate rotational energy, but that doesn't mean it is more efficient than an alternator / generator method of producing electricity.

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    1. Re:Efficiency? by Todd+Palin · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I was thinking the same thing. Efficiency is the real question. I assume the article would have mentioned this if the efficiency was available to the authors. The fact that efficiency figures weren't available means they were not very impressive at this stage. The devil is in the details.

    2. Re:Efficiency? by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      Efficiency and size/HP. A small one as a backup genny in an EV might be interesting, or larger ones in a hybrid.

      If they are efficient, how about using them as portable generators as well? That nobody has used them in this manner before sparks my critical side.

    3. Re:Efficiency? by grmoc · · Score: 2

      .. and how efficient is at as compared to a turbine?

    4. Re:Efficiency? by Zeussy · · Score: 1

      The other thing the article doesn't state, is that the cylinder and head design is similar to 2 stroke diesels. With exhaust ports at the top, and intake ports at the bottom, blocked off as the piston moves up. They generally use a supercharger or a turbocharger to force the exhaust gases out and the fresh intake charge in, so I assume this design is using some sort of electric supercharger in it's place.

    5. Re:Efficiency? by rubycodez · · Score: 1

      or a free piston engine driving a turbine? I love how I keep seeing the same shit different decade

    6. Re:Efficiency? by kimvette · · Score: 1, Interesting

      The real question is actually, will the car be safe? with 13hp*2, 0-60 will likely be in the high 20s. Not very good for merging, or crossing traffic, or going uphill, or even hauling groceries. Think sub-VW Beetle performance, considering that a Beetle weighed in at less than half the weight of today's nannystate-mandated safety features.

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    7. Re:Efficiency? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Turbines are really not efficient at all. Even if you made a perfect turbine, the Brayton cycle is inherently less efficient than the Otto/Atkinson cycle used in internal combustion engines.

      They are used in airplanes because nothing beats their power/weight ratio, and in power plants because of their longer MTBF and ability to burn lower quality fuels.

    8. Re:Efficiency? by cryptizard · · Score: 2

      They will not be powering the acceleration directly though, they will be charging batteries which power an electric drivetrain. That means you get some extra charge while you are sitting at a red light and you use more when accelerating to highway speed.

    9. Re:Efficiency? by im_thatoneguy · · Score: 4, Informative

      The real question is actually, will the car be safe? with 13hp*2, 0-60 will likely be in the high 20s. Not very good for merging, or crossing traffic, or going uphill, or even hauling groceries.

      Of course. The great thing about electric cars is that you have tons of torque instantly available. This is just for charging batteries. As long as you aren't accelerating indefinitely they can make up the high power drain from the acceleration while cruising.

    10. Re:Efficiency? by Dahamma · · Score: 5, Informative

      Efficiency information was there, I guess the dumbed-down article linked from the post didn't feel like including it. This link (that was in TFA) has much more interesting details:

      http://www.greencarcongress.co...

      Summary is, not only does it have 42% efficiency (for reference, efficient DI gas engines are about 35%, and diesel about 40%), it allows for a lighter, simpler engine with reduced cooling and lubrication requirements. Higher efficiency, lower weight, fewer moving parts all just generally contribute to a lower TCO, which would be a great thing, as series hybrids are still not particularly cheap (at least without their current subsidies)...

    11. Re:Efficiency? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      75mph on 26hp... pretty efficient given that most cars need triple that. By removing most of the mechanics you're eliminating an awful lot of friction, noise, momentum (eg of cams) etc.

    12. Re:Efficiency? by beelsebob · · Score: 2

      Acceleration should be just fine. This thing just needs to run constantly producing power to charge the battery. The electric motors will have far more torque and power than this, and be able to (temporarily) discharge the battery, until you lift.

    13. Re:Efficiency? by FatdogHaiku · · Score: 2

      The devil is in the details.

      Crap, I've spent years hunting him in the boardroom!

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    14. Re:Efficiency? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      It would be pretty silly to have this be the direct source of power, doncha think? It's for keeping the battery charged.

      Alternate sig suggestion: Every time we say that Slashdotters can't be that stupid, they set out to prove us wrong.

    15. Re:Efficiency? by willy_me · · Score: 2

      The real question is how efficient is it?

      It does not have to be any more efficient if they manage to reduct weight and increase reliability. Efficiency has a big part to play but even a less efficient engine would be desirable if they improve greatly on other aspects.

      Remember that this is being targeted for vehicles that will run mostly on electric power. An ICE is a dead weight when not being used. If someone drives using 90% pure electric then the efficiency gains of carrying less weight could easily outweigh the losses of an ICE that was 5% less efficient but only operates for 10% of the time.

    16. Re:Efficiency? by kimvette · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Okay anonymous coward, tell me this: what happens when you have a very long incline for miles, such as found on I-84, I-76, I-80, I-70, etc. and your batteries run down? Granted most of it isn't steep, but very long distances. Also, what happens when the cells have worn out? The generator has got to provide enough power to drive the electric motors directly in order for the car to be streetworthy. Also, is 75mph the top speed? Speed limits are now 70 or even 80 or 85 on more and more American highways, and the minimum is usually 10mph under the posted limit. Again, on long inclines, when the batteries have drained, will the generator provide enough current to keep the car moving at legal highway speeds?

      Now, it's time to turn your snark around against yourself.

      --
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    17. Re:Efficiency? by Blaskowicz · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Nobody has used them because they need some high tech. From what I've read free-piston engines need to be computer-controlled at a very high rate, else the technology is unworkable. Something like an Intel 8051 wouldn't keep up, so for that reason alone it was not invented 30 years ago.
      Writing the firmware must be hard, as hinted by the wikipedia article's end. Maybe that requires a lot of computer simulations, which is easier to do in the 2000s and 2010s to say the least.

      I do agree a portable generator would nice, or a lightweight vehicle that doubles as a power plant. 10 kilowatts would be pretty good for audio gear, lighting and an ice machine to keep the beer cool.

    18. Re:Efficiency? by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

      Well that, and Toyota is behind this. But I'm rather surprised that it's that efficient. I would think there would be a substantial inductive loss in the form of wasted EM radiation along with heat. At least with mechanical energy, it goes directly from the combustion chamber to where the rubber meets the road; effectively.

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    19. Re:Efficiency? by Blaskowicz · · Score: 1

      As for efficency I read a claim they can do 60%, which is crazy high and pretty much the max for anything. But my source is weak (finding about free-piston engines serendipitously and maybe doing some google searches)

    20. Re:Efficiency? by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      Well, according to the only reference I found before I got bored you need recirculation to even reach 30% with a small turbine in the power range we're discussing. That's not really competitive with modern ICEs, let alone this engine.

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    21. Re:Efficiency? by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 2

      As for efficency I read a claim they can do 60%, which is crazy high

      No way ... unless you are using liquid nitrogen for your heat sink. Even a perfect Carnot cycle isn't going to give you efficiencies that high. Maybe they mean "60% of perfect CC" rather than "60% = (electrical energy out)/(fuel energy in)".

    22. Re:Efficiency? by cheater512 · · Score: 1

      Does that include using it to drive the wheels?
      I assume the petrol/diesel stats do.

    23. Re:Efficiency? by cheater512 · · Score: 1

      So...it needs what a low end smart phone or a Raspberry Pi can provide without breaking a sweat?

      Doesn't quite explain the last 10 years. We've had plenty of computing power for ages.

    24. Re:Efficiency? by swillden · · Score: 1

      Does that include using it to drive the wheels? I assume the petrol/diesel stats do.

      Doesn't make much difference because electric motors are very efficient, nearing 100%.

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    25. Re:Efficiency? by Crayz9000 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Effectively?
      Mechanical losses are a major issue with cars, particularly when dealing with power losses through differentials. Friction will quickly make you its bitch, which is why everything must be kept well-lubricated, and even then you have to keep the viscosity to an absolute minimum to avoid fluid load.
      A completely electric drivetrain, if done right, can eliminate almost all of the moving parts that contribute to power loss. Electricity, wires, and motors. It doesn't get much simpler than that.

    26. Re:Efficiency? by slinches · · Score: 3, Informative

      That's not true in practice. The efficiency of the Brayton cycle may be lower for the same compression ratio, but higher compression ratios are achievable. This is the same reason Diesel engines are more efficient. Also, turbines tend to have lower thermal and mechanical losses.

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    27. Re:Efficiency? by Blaskowicz · · Score: 1

      That must be theoretical efficiency (I thought of that after hitting "submit").
      That makes me think of audio amplifiers. Class D amps have a theoretical efficiency of 100% :), real world results are about 88% to 92%.

    28. Re:Efficiency? by calidoscope · · Score: 5, Informative

      The transmissions on current GE and EMD diesel electric locomotives are about 94% efficient from the output of the prime mover to the driving wheels. I would expect electric car motors to be on the order of 90 to 95% efficient, so this should compare favorably with a mechanical tranny.

      Speaking of locomotives, the free piston gasifier was being heavily researched in the 1950's as a more efficient realization of a gas turbine and something that could compete with diesel engines as prime movers.

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    29. Re:Efficiency? by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 0

      Copper loss. Eddy currents.

      Really, just a whole new set of conditions.

      That's all. Different, not necessarily simpler.

    30. Re:Efficiency? by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 1

      Pontiac is out of business. So low-priced overpowered ego-peen vehicles are slowly dwindling away. There are still Mustangs and Camaros to produce hazardous conditions when combined with such a low powered vehicle, but they'll likely fade away as well.

    31. Re:Efficiency? by duke_cheetah2003 · · Score: 1

      Even if this is less efficient than a conventional ICE, it's still less moving parts therefore less things to wear out, which should make it last even longer and require less maintenance.

    32. Re:Efficiency? by TubeSteak · · Score: 1

      and the minimum is usually 10mph under the posted limit.

      I've never heard of that.

      If there's a minimum speed limit, it'll be posted.
      Otherwise, it's up to a police officer's judgement if you're going so slow as to "obstruct traffic."

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    33. Re:Efficiency? by AK+Marc · · Score: 2

      And solved already, better than gasoline powered direct drive is solved. The big ships now are electrical engines powered by generators. Direct connections are less efficient. In a car, copper losss and eddy currents should be closer to to 0%, with known expected loads, you use enough copper for short runs to cover it.

    34. Re:Efficiency? by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      One thing I didn't see is that with a "free piston" why couldn't you have both sides generate power? A 2-stroke on one end and another 2-stroke one stroke dealyed. Double power in a small/light container. Turn off one of them to save fuel. Have a bank of 3, and run them 1-cyl to 6-cyl for a wide variety of power generation and economy modes.

    35. Re:Efficiency? by AK+Marc · · Score: 1
      You have battery power enough to take care of the situations describe. For the rest, you do what you do with any other car that doesn't work. You take it in for service.

      Also, is 75mph the top speed?

      Of what? The first test car? Or the "speed limit" for the engine? You seem to be implying the latter, as you are talking about the engine, not the car.

      the minimum is usually 10mph under the posted limit.

      No. Where are you? They pulled the minimums off most hihways in the '80s (for those that were left). They found they didn't work. The idea behind them was to encourage grannies to use the side-streets. But it didn't work. So they were mostly abolished. I haven't seen anywhere with them in years, so I think you are lying. Feel free to prove me wrong. "usually" would mean, what 26+ states? Aside from a few limited areas in urban areas (exempt from your "long distance" stretches of interstate), can you name anywhere with them listed as 10 mph under the limit applying to all (or any) roads?

    36. Re:Efficiency? by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

      and yet getting that energy into a rotational mechanical energy is where there is a large amount of loss.

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    37. Re:Efficiency? by AJWM · · Score: 1

      what happens when you have a very long incline for miles, such as found on I-84, I-76, I-80, I-70, etc. and your batteries run down? Granted most of it isn't steep, but very long distances.

      Even the long stretches on say I-70 going up to the Eisenhower Tunnel or Vail Pass aren't more than a couple of miles ... and you get an equivalent downhill to recharge those batteries on the other side.

      (As for speed, I once had the turbo control cable snap on my (relatively new at the time) Daytona Turbo-Z while climbing from Silverthorne up to the tunnel. 2.2 L just doesn't do a heck of a lot without a turbo assist, especially at altitude. Fortunately traffic was light. BTW, max speed limit in the mountains is usually 65mph.)

      --
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    38. Re:Efficiency? by Zeussy · · Score: 1

      You might need a set of sleeve valves or similar to seal off the intake ports. So the combustion chamber of the deactivated cylinder can act as the air spring.

      I wonder if there is a limitation to how much power you can make from that size of linear generator/stator though, so you wouldn't get much advantage, I don't know that much about that side of things though.

    39. Re:Efficiency? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What is a turbo control cable?

    40. Re:Efficiency? by swillden · · Score: 2

      The numbers I've read are in the range of 95-98% efficient, but I can't find any links right now. In any case, whether it's 90% or 99%, the net is that a linear generator feeding an electric motor should be at least as efficient as a traditional ICE, as well as being lighter and simpler.

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    41. Re: Efficiency? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Seat belts save lives. Ask the guy who doesn't use them. Oh wait, you can't. He's dead.

    42. Re:Efficiency? by XNormal · · Score: 4, Informative

      The conventional piston-and-crankshaft engine forces the variation of cylinder volume over time to follow a specific sinusoidal curve. This is not the most efficient way to convert the energy of a hot expanding gas to motion. Look at the third picture in the slideshow to see the power-over-time graph of the free piston engine to get an idea of how differently this engine runs.

      This fundamental difference in thermodynamic cycle performance makes the biggest improvement to the efficiency of this engine. It more than makes up for the inherent inefficiencies in converting the mechanical motion to electricity and back. Using electricity lets you use capacitors and batteries to smooth that spiky but efficient power production to a a smooth supply for the electric motors.

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    43. Re:Efficiency? by flyneye · · Score: 1

      In their hurry to generate too much excitement and raise investors they neglected to convert the statement: Toyota's test units are only 10 kW (13 horsepower), a pair of them can still produce enough electricity for a Yaris- or Corolla-sized vehicle to cruise on the highway at 75 mph." into a more saleable; Toyota's test units are only 100 kW (130 horsepower), a pair of them can still produce enough electricity for a Yaris- or Corolla-sized vehicle to cruise on the highway at 750 mph."
      Conservatism has no place in advertising...

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    44. Re:Efficiency? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There hasn't been a hybrid subsidy for several years now. Only plug-ins and full electrics get the tax credit anymore.

    45. Re:Efficiency? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Gee, I don't know, what happens? Surely no automotive engineer or government regulator will think of this. Thanks for saving humanity.
       
      The Prius has been around 15 years now and there are still idiots like you that think Toyota will produce a car that won't be able to climb hills?

    46. Re:Efficiency? by Cassini2 · · Score: 1

      The issue is weight. In a car, weight is an issue. A mechanical gear box is a very light method of adapting engine output for use at the wheels. Electricity cannot match the power/weight capabilities of a mechanical gear box.

      On the other hand, a locomotive is a very different application. A train has a huge mass, and the electric generator/motor approach does not add significantly to the total weight of the train. Also, huge advantages exist in the electric generator/motor approach on a locomotive. The diesel engine can be operated at optimal fuel economy. It is possible to apply the maximum torque to the locomotive drive wheels while avoiding wheel slip. When accelerating very large masses, following the optimal acceleration curve is a big advantage. Also, a safety issue exists in trains where wheel failure (and hence derailment) can occur if excessive wheel-slip occurs. Hence a constant traction drive on a locomotive has benefits.

    47. Re:Efficiency? by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Toyota are combining it with existing hybrid technology too, so you get all the benefits of being able to recover energy when braking and turning off the ICE when the battery pack doesn't need charging. Plug-in charging might be an option too, like the plug-in Prius.

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    48. Re:Efficiency? by AmiMoJo · · Score: 2

      You completely mis-understand how this is intended to work. Well done.

      Even with a long steady incline the amount of energy needed is far lower than when accelerating from a standing start. Looking at an elevation map for the I-84 it shouldn't present any kind of problem to someone looking to average 65-70 MPH, assuming a battery pack similar in size to a plug-in Prius or maybe a bit larger.

      The 75 MPH figure is stating that the car can do that indefinitely, but the actual top speed of the vehicle will be higher. In any case the maximum speed of an existing Nissan Leaf is 93 MPH, and somehow people manage to drive on highways in those so I don't think it is a major problem.

      The battery packs last a long time. There are 15 year old Prius hybrids that have no measurable drop in battery performance despite having over 250k miles on the clock. Tesla has tested their packs up to 750k miles with 85% capacity remaining. The key is that the cells are never fully charged or discharged, extending their lifespans considerably.

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    49. Re:Efficiency? by wagnerrp · · Score: 1

      If you take an electric car and stick a second type of battery on it, it's still just an electric car. There's no reason to lump everything into the buzzword that is "hybrid".

    50. Re:Efficiency? by wagnerrp · · Score: 1

      A typical automobile is a very different application, but still one that benefits considerably from an electric transmission with buffer. There are times when an automobile warrants a couple hundred horsepower, such as acceleration up an inclined highway on-ramp. An underpowered vehicle is a safety concern, as it will not yet be up to speed when it comes time to merge. On the other hand, an automobile will typically only be using a few tens of horsepower or less, meaning a large, unused ICE constitutes a whole lot of unnecessary weight and inefficiency.

      A small ICE on the order of 30HP, combined with a modest MJ of storage and a 200HP traction motor will be lighter, more efficient, and more reliable than the traditional 200HP ICE and variable transmission, and will even offer better performance due to the torque characteristics of an electric motor.

    51. Re:Efficiency? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, if you're Toyota, you probably do some tests, and make sure that there's enough battery reserve to handle situations like that. And, by the time this sees a production car, this will almost certainly be coupled with a smart route planner. It would be pretty simple, even now, to tell the car what route you're taking, and let the car adjust its charging/top speed balance to allow you to keep a reasonable speed over the whole route. Hell, in 5 years, hopefully the car will be making all those kinds of decisions (while on the highway at least) while you sit back and relax.

    52. Re:Efficiency? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is a *generator*, not a battery.

    53. Re:Efficiency? by wagnerrp · · Score: 1

      Even areas that still have minimum posted speed limits, they're usually 20-30mph below the maximum.

    54. Re:Efficiency? by wagnerrp · · Score: 1

      Probably the cable that controls the waste gate.

    55. Re:Efficiency? by kimvette · · Score: 0

      > And solved already, better than gasoline powered direct drive is solved. The big ships now are electrical engines powered by generators.

      A perfect analogy since ships often go up and down mountain roads, sit idle in traffic for long periods with AC running with a puny battery bank and ridiculously small and weak engine+generator assembly, and have to accelerate and come to a stop very often, sometimes several hundred times per mile in heavy traffic.

      Oh wait, I see a tiny problem with your analogy.

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    56. Re:Efficiency? by PrimaryConsult · · Score: 1

      For New York State, I787 and 495 (Long Island Expressway) still have a minimum speed limit of 40. source (it's buried in there, search for "minimum" to find the right paragraph...).

    57. Re:Efficiency? by MachineShedFred · · Score: 1

      I've also wondered why the same concept used to move billions of tons of freight around the world on both sea and rail hasn't been tried in cars. Take a motor that operates at it's most efficient RPM and run it there, powering an electrical generator. Then use that electricity to power motors. Work in a bank of capacitors to deal with increased load from stops and starts, and you're there.

      Diesel Electric has been in use since the 1950s, and is incredibly efficient.

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    58. Re:Efficiency? by jimbolauski · · Score: 1

      If the system is in balance at 75mph a 20mph headwind will have you depleting your charge at 55mph. It's probably not a worry for daily commutes but for long trips it would be a worry. I would want the balance point to be at 90mph which would require about a 50% increase in power if I used it for long drives.

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    59. Re:Efficiency? by wagnerrp · · Score: 1

      It converts stored energy into electrical energy. Any details beyond that are irrelevant, as it is not providing mechanical energy to move the vehicle.

    60. Re:Efficiency? by canadian_right · · Score: 1

      And, while this is interesting tech, a large stationary power-plant should be more efficient - even with transmission losses so I'll be waiting until I can get a battery powered car at a reasonable price with good enough range. Battery research is what cars need.

      Electricity is cheap where I live so my "fuel" costs would be cut by about 85% if I got an electric. (7.5Km per dollar for gas vs 50k per dollar for electricity).

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    61. Re:Efficiency? by MachineShedFred · · Score: 1

      The good news is that on long stretches of incline, there are usually more lanes because you are also describing the exact issues that large cargo vehicles experience on these same stretches of road. They aren't using batteries, but they still drive significantly slower over mountain passes than passenger vehicles.

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    62. Re:Efficiency? by InvalidError · · Score: 1

      There is also the issue of emissions - two-strokes engines usually fare much worse than four-strokes ones.

      This seems to go against everything the push for hybrids and all-electric vehicles stand for.

    63. Re:Efficiency? by Aaden42 · · Score: 1

      A car built from this would run from two different power sources: electricity direct from grid to battery and gasoline (or possibly other liquid/gas combustable fuel) used to produce electricity, possibly to battery, possibly direct to electric motor with no intervening storage at times of high power requirements.

      It’s perhaps less “hybrid” than running with gasoline direct to drive plus electric motors, but it still seems fair to apply the word. Contrast to something like Leaf or Tesla which are solely fueled by electricity from grid to battery to motor.

      I’m also mostly guessing that a much simpler cylinder system might be able to adapt to running from multiple fuels in a single engine with minor fuel injection / ECM accommodations. That could further hybridize it if you could put gasoline, diesel, or even a gas cylinder of propane on the car and run from whatever’s cheapest.

    64. Re:Efficiency? by Aaden42 · · Score: 2

      acceleration up an inclined highway on-ramp [ ...] as it will not yet be up to speed when it comes time to merge

      Dear Finagle, I wish drivers around here knew that’s what the on-ramp is FOR. Daily occurrence that someone tries to creep into 65MPH* traffic going maybe 30-something after putting their way downhill on a 1/4 mile long on-ramp.

      Use that long skinny pedal on the right, KTHX?

      * And of course everyone is going precisely 65, no more...

    65. Re:Efficiency? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      size is important as well. if they managed to pack a 10 KW generator into the space of a 2 liter soda bottle, I will be throwing money at them.

    66. Re:Efficiency? by wagnerrp · · Score: 1

      Depending on location, the Tesla and Leaf will be powered by coal, diesel fuel, methane, water, steam, wind, sunlight, or uranium. Just because the power comes from the grid does not make it any more homogeneous than a vehicle with an onboard generator.

      From the other direction, diesel-electric submarines have been diesel-electric submarines for decades, and could run their electrical systems and charge their batteries off shore power when docked. That's identical to a "plug-in mild hybrid", but no one would have considered calling them that until "hybrid" became a buzzword that needed to be applied to anything and everything it could. Of course for that matter, no one calls diesel and nuclear submarines hybrids either, even though they actually do have multiple independent systems directly providing motive force.

    67. Re:Efficiency? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Again, on long inclines, when the batteries have drained, will the generator provide enough current to keep the car moving at legal highway speeds? ...Because it's absolutely impossible to, you know, pull over for a few minutes.

    68. Re:Efficiency? by Type44Q · · Score: 1

      I was thinking the same thing. Efficiency is the real question. I assume the article would have mentioned this if the efficiency was available to the authors. The fact that efficiency figures weren't available means they were not very impressive at this stage.

      I seem to recall that this type of design and others aren't limited to the same maximum theoretical efficiency of a conventional combustion engine as described by Carnot's theorem but it'd be useful if an actual physicist could chime in...

    69. Re:Efficiency? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      acceleration up an inclined highway on-ramp [ ...] as it will not yet be up to speed when it comes time to merge

      Dear Finagle, I wish drivers around here knew that’s what the on-ramp is FOR. Daily occurrence that someone tries to creep into 65MPH* traffic going maybe 30-something after putting their way downhill on a 1/4 mile long on-ramp.

      Use that long skinny pedal on the right, KTHX?

      * And of course everyone is going precisely 65, no more...

      Try driving in Oklahoma sometime. Admittedly, it's been over 15 years since I've driven in OK City, but when I first moved there, I almost rearended 3 people the first day I was there. People were coming to a complete stop at the top of the entrance ramp. It was insane.

    70. Re:Efficiency? by Shirley+Marquez · · Score: 1

      People needed a term for hybrid cars because they actually were something new to the automobile business, even if submarines had used similar power trains many years ago. "Hybrid" captures the notion that they are something between a pure gasoline or diesel car and a pure electric car, combining elements of both, so it's not a terrible name for them.

    71. Re:Efficiency? by Shirley+Marquez · · Score: 1

      Diesel locomotives are also electrical engines powered by generators, and they go up and down mountains and sometimes stop frequently though not as often as the car caught in rush hour traffic. The difference between a hybrid car and a locomotive (or a diesel-electric submarine) is that in current designs excess electricity is simply wasted in a resistor bank; there is no energy storage. Siemens is developing locomotives that incorporate batteries and regenerative braking; they have reported fuel efficiency savings of 20-25% over conventional designs.

    72. Re:Efficiency? by Shirley+Marquez · · Score: 1

      That's pretty much what a series hybrid does, except for using a lithium-ion battery rather than a capacitor. Current supercapacitors don't have enough energy storage density to take the place of batteries, though there are MIT researchers working on carbon nanotube supercapacitors that will if they ever prove to be practical. So far no pure series hybrid has been put into mass production, though the Chevy Volt comes close; it's not a pure series design because there is a mechanical linkage between the gasoline motor and the wheels that is used at high speeds.

    73. Re:Efficiency? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The real question is actually, will the car be safe? with 13hp*2, 0-60 will likely be in the high 20s. Not very good for merging, or crossing traffic, or going uphill, or even hauling groceries.

      Of course. The great thing about electric cars is that you have tons of torque instantly available. This is just for charging batteries. As long as you aren't accelerating indefinitely they can make up the high power drain from the acceleration while cruising.

      It sounds to me like this guy is the kind of douche who accelerates faster than traffic and then slams his breaks on as he cuts in front of me. Trust me guy, you'll be fine without that acceleration.

    74. Re:Efficiency? by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      You are technically correct, but would confuse most of the people, therefore wrong. Hopefully you don't work on hybrid car marketing.

    75. Re:Efficiency? by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Oh wait, I see a tiny problem with your analogy.

      It wasn't an "analogy" It was an example of the solved problem. If you like a land-based solution, there are some. Apparently you are ignorant of the problem and too lazy to find out anything for yourself, and you are implying that is a "good thing" somehow.

    76. Re:Efficiency? by triffid_98 · · Score: 1

      Pontiac is out of business. So low-priced overpowered ego-peen vehicles are slowly dwindling away

      You'd like to think that wouldn't you? Even a freaking Honda Accord has (with appropriate options) 280ish horsepower nowadays.

      So pretty much the same, just minus the mullet haircuts and screaming chicken hoods.

    77. Re:Efficiency? by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      I purposefully included "aside from urban" because I know planners still put them in heavy traffic areas, as if the people caught in stop and go traffic will accelerate when they see minimum speed signs. But that's not the areas he's talking about. Long, open Interstates. Some states have "must not impede traffic" laws, but I know of none with set fixed limits under a road speed. They must be posted, and when the limits went from 55 to 55+ (back in the '80s), those few with them dropped them as the limits rose.

    78. Re:Efficiency? by stoatwblr · · Score: 1

      "Current supercapacitors don't have enough energy storage density to take the place of batteries"

      No, but they can be (and are) used to smooth out charge/discharge. They're great for catching things like regenerative braking and returning it to the motors when needed or trickling to the battery if not, which saves battery life and reduces heat losses from a battery's chemical reactions.

    79. Re:Efficiency? by Dahamma · · Score: 1

      Bzzt, wrong. I said SERIES HYBRID (since that's the use case for this new engine as well). And the Chevy Volt, as a series hybrid, most definitely still gets tax credits.

    80. Re:Efficiency? by Dahamma · · Score: 1

      though the Chevy Volt comes close; it's not a pure series design because there is a mechanical linkage between the gasoline motor and the wheels that is used at high speeds.

      Actually, it appears that is not entirely correct... From the lead engineer of the Volt:

      There is no "direct" mechanical linkage between the Volt's gas engine and the wheels, rather there is an indirect linkage that is accomplished by meshing the power output of the engine with the power output of one of the other two electric motors.
      Motor Trend's reporting that the magic cutoff speed of 70 mph is what the car uses to determine whether or not to make the engine to partially drive the wheels is incorrect. The engine is used to partially drive the wheels when the car calculates that it will be a more efficient use of the engine's power. There is no hard cutoff point.

      Still, that seems a little bit of semantics on his part; it's clearly not a "true series hybrid" if it is bypassing the electric motor in any way. But it's understandable that they wouldn't want to turn the mechanical energy to electrical and then back to mechanical if the car knows that will *lose* efficiency in the process...

    81. Re:Efficiency? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The real question is how efficient is it? The article doesn't say. It might be simpler mechanically than using a crankshaft to generate rotational energy, but that doesn't mean it is more efficient than an alternator / generator method of producing electricity.

      It is comical seeing some douche bag like you speculate on the efficiency of the
      design.

      Toyota is way ahead of you, sport.

      So why don't you go back to what you do best, which is gobbling cock.

    82. Re:Efficiency? by CmdrTamale · · Score: 1

      Sounds almost like overdrive to me.
      --
      "The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." George Bernard Shaw

    83. Re:Efficiency? by stoatwblr · · Score: 1

      Not to mention that inclines where it'll ber a problem will also slow trucks right down too and therefore usually have crawler lanes.

    84. Re:Efficiency? by Smidge204 · · Score: 1

      The graph from the article really tells you nothing of value. Compare it to the output of a traditional rotary generator and it's actually kinda crap - looks about a 30% duty cycle.

      Certainly there is nothing you can glean from that graph about the thermodynamic performance of the engine.

      Plus, you are not getting a motion that is significantly different than sinusoidal with what is a fairly normal spring-mass-damper system. On the other hand, mechanically driven engines can have all sorts of fun motions with relatively simple modifications: The Prius, for example, uses modified valve timing to achieve an Atkinson-cycle-like profile.

      If anything, you can compare it to the thermodynamic efficiency of a fuel injected 2-stroke... because that's exactly what it is. In that case, it's slightly more efficient by virtue of less mechanical loss.

      The real advantage is lower part count, which cuts weight, size and cost. Couple this with a narrowly defined power band to optimize efficiency and you have something worth pursuing. If you want to increase efficiency further, maybe replace the lossy gas spring with a second combustion cylinder to get some of that bang back for your buck.
      =Smidge=

    85. Re:Efficiency? by kimvette · · Score: 1

      The difference with locomotives is that they don't charge battery banks which in turn power the wheels, but are designed to power the wheels, pull (or push) potentially HUNDREDS of rail cars and have plenty of overhead. They have a primary 3200hp engine producing 4700amps or more of current, and a secondary, smaller diesel engine producing over 500kw for lighting and other systems unrelated to the drive motors. Locomotives weigh in at over 60 tons and are not expected to merge with other traffic on highways, and the railways are very tightly controlled so if a locomotive will end up at 15mph going up a mountain range, other traffic is made to wait until the train has made it. Highways are not managed in such a manner, so again, your analogy fails. Trains are a whole other ball of wax.

      Now, if we were to be running cars on light rail systems which are strictly controlled and they weigh in at tens of tons, with a very heavy duty generator directly driving the wheels, the comparison might be more apt. Sadly, this is not the case. What this proposed vehicle would introduce is huge speed deltas that actually cause collisions.

      --
      The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
    86. Re:Efficiency? by kimvette · · Score: 1

      Here is a locomotive engine which drives the generator on 12"x12" ties which gives you a sense of scale:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F...

      This is why diesel locomotives have such massive capacity. They're not dinky sub-2L engines, and don't have to accelerate very rapidly for merging, passing, and collision avoidance when things go wrong.

      --
      The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
    87. Re:Efficiency? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Original AC here. Your post is so retarded that I don't know where to begin. All I can do is hold it up as further evidence that Every time we say that Slashdotters can't be that stupid, they set out to prove us wrong.

    88. Re:Efficiency? by kimvette · · Score: 1

      You're the idiot here.

      What happens with Lithium Ion batteries when you deep cycle them? That's right, you kill them; constant deep cycling of lithium ion batteries results in severely reduced capacity. The last thing you want is cars climbing highway hills at 15mph, or even 35mph because it's speed deltas that kill. Oh, and merging? Good luck with merging onto the highway in Boston, or in Brooklyn Heights (NYC). People merge poorly enough without a woefully undercapacity powertain. The whole reason there is no legal speed limit on on-ramps is to enable smooth merging.

      The generator needs to be high enough capacity to not only charge the battery pack, but to provide enough power to keep the car moving at legal and safe speeds regardless of the grade of the road, and needs to provide enough power to enable the motors to produce enough torque to merge safely.

      Of course, if you had a legitimate response, you would sign in, not post as AC, and you would state your objection based on science and logic rather than engage in baseless ad hominem attacks.

      --
      The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
  2. Okay. by sexconker · · Score: 2

    Okay. Is there some sort of plan to use these in future vehicles? How do they compare to traditional engines in terms of efficiency, power, maintenance requirements, etc.? How do they compare to electric vehicles in the same regard? Devoid of any such meaningful substance, this story seems like fluff meant to distract from Tesla, Nissan, Ford, etc. who are aggressively pursuing all-electric vehicles.

  3. so how is it different from diesel electric locomo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    so how is it different from diesel electric locomotive ?

  4. Stirling engine? by Gablar · · Score: 1

    To me this design wants to be combined with a sterling engine.

    --
    It's all about finding better ways
    1. Re:Stirling engine? by mspohr · · Score: 1

      It sounds like it is close to a Stirling engine as it is now.

      --
      I don't read your sig. Why are you reading mine?
    2. Re:Stirling engine? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The linear portion, yes....but this is still internal combustion, and while a simple change in the spring constant/air mixture should allow it to use a wide variety of fuels, a Stirling engine is even more fuel-agnostic, as it's external combustion...just need a source of heat. Problem with them is that they are low power for a given size relative to internal combustion, though they are uber-efficient.

    3. Re:Stirling engine? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A sterling engine would be very useful in the UK

    4. Re:Stirling engine? by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      Well, that's probably why NASA wants plutonium-powered linear Stirling engines for their spacecrafts.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    5. Re:Stirling engine? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      K. S. Kyosuke: You've been called out (for tossing names) & you ran "forrest" from a fair challenge http://slashdot.org/comments.p...

  5. In mpg ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    75mph at 10kw, assuming 35% thermal efficiency, gives us 44 mpg. Not incredible but not bad.

    1. Re:In mpg ... by kenh · · Score: 1

      About the same as an $18K Chevrolet Cruz Eco, which claims 46 MPG in the diesel variant...

      --
      Ken
    2. Re:In mpg ... by pushing-robot · · Score: 2

      Toyota's test units are only 10 kW (13 horsepower), a pair of them can still produce enough electricity for a Yaris- or Corolla-sized vehicle to cruise on the highway at 75 mph.

      --
      How can I believe you when you tell me what I don't want to hear?
    3. Re: In mpg ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't understand how you calculated that since there are so many missing variables. However the research paper stated 42% efficiency.

    4. Re: In mpg ... by FishTankX · · Score: 1

      Here would be how you calculate it..

      10kwx2=20kw

      1 gallon of gasoline is 33.4kwh (wikipedia)

      @42% efficency, 20kw is consuming 47.6kwh/gasoline per hour

      This gives 1.425 gallons per 52.6 miles per gallon, however if you assume the motors, charging system and resistance losses account for 10% efficency loss you get 47.3mpg highway at 75mph.

      However, if we assume that you drive 60 instead of 75, alot of sites say you loose roughly 20-25% driving at 75. So at 60 if you gain 20% fuel economy it'd come out to ~56-7mpg, or within spitting distance of a prius.

  6. Bill Gates has allready patented this. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Embrace.
    Extend.
    Extinguish!
    http://jalopnik.com/5210372/bi...

  7. The vibration must suck by drinkypoo · · Score: 1, Interesting

    So you're gonna need at least two cylinders. But they'll have to be opposed and they'll have to fire in time, because otherwise they're not going to help you. I don't have any trouble believing they can synchronize them, but this makes the engine a lot longer, and you might as well just build a boxer. If the gas seal on the chamber on the other side of the piston fails, your engine will fail spectacularly. Seals fail all the time. Meh.

    --
    "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    1. Re:The vibration must suck by Zeussy · · Score: 1

      They can be horizontal opposed in motion in the parallel twin design. This will give some second order imbalance though. Piston rings don't fail all the time, or you would see new cars blowing blue smoke all the time. They gradually wear out.

    2. Re:The vibration must suck by Whatsisname · · Score: 1

      Right, because I'm sure the engineers at Toyota haven't thought about this kind of stuff.

    3. Re:The vibration must suck by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Right, because I'm sure the engineers at Toyota haven't thought about this kind of stuff.

      They build stuff they have no intention of producing all the time, they can still afford shit like that because people still want their cars.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    4. Re:The vibration must suck by sexconker · · Score: 1

      Right, because I'm sure the engineers at Toyota haven't thought about this kind of stuff.

      Oh I'm sure they thought of it. Probably decades ago. And decided it was an inferior design. This is only being trotted out in an effort to distract from all-electrics from Tesla, Nissan, Ford, etc. There is no indication that Toyota plans to use this design in any product.

    5. Re:The vibration must suck by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      Free piston engines have a distinct difference with respect to vibration. They can potentially couple a lot less vibration to the chassis than traditional designs because the vibration is only in one plane and there is no need to couple the engine to the chassis to provide torsional reaction force for the drive train.

      The vibration of any individual component doesn't matter, only the vibration that is coupled to the chassis of the vehicle. With a free piston design, there is no need to couple the engine directly to anything because you have no output shafts to couple to the drive train, and no mechanical reaction forces to contain. That means that the body of the engine can be decoupled from the chassis of the vehicle in the axis of vibration, and *allowed* to vibrate back and forth as much as it needs to. That provides the reaction force to the piston, and the forces coupled to the chassis are only the frictional loss in your mounting system.

    6. Re:The vibration must suck by mjwx · · Score: 1

      Right, because I'm sure the engineers at Toyota haven't thought about this kind of stuff.

      They build stuff they have no intention of producing all the time, they can still afford shit like that because people still want their cars.

      It's called Research and Development.

      Things like VTEC didn't pop into your Honda overnight, the technology was developed over decades until it became good and cheap enough to be put into everyday use.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    7. Re:The vibration must suck by Required+Snark · · Score: 2
      Why was this modded down? If I had mod points I would mod it up.

      All I can assume is that some anti-green ideological idiot wants to shoot down any thing that makes good sense and saves energy.

      I assume that they are political conservatives, since it fits their typical behavior. I wonder if the Koch (pronounced COCK) brothers are somehow involved.

      --
      Why is Snark Required?
    8. Re:The vibration must suck by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      The free piston needs no connection to the car. You could have the engine mounted in a manner that it slides back and forth, giving no net vibration to the chassis. You are thinking of drawbacks to a simple swap. That seems a stupid assumption.

    9. Re:The vibration must suck by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      The vibration of any individual component doesn't matter, only the vibration that is coupled to the chassis of the vehicle.

      Right, but you'll still have the combustion. Small, well-balanced engines already don't transmit a lot of vibration to the chassis. A boxer engine, for example, with opposed pistons like I was just talking about.

      That provides the reaction force to the piston, and the forces coupled to the chassis are only the frictional loss in your mounting system.

      Right, but now you're trading frictional loss for heat loss, by compressing air. You'll generate more heat in the bottom end than you would even in a normal engine.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    10. Re:The vibration must suck by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      You could have the engine mounted in a manner that it slides back and forth, giving no net vibration to the chassis.

      Really? So uh, to what will you mount the part that it slides on? Your asshole?

      You are thinking of drawbacks to a simple swap. That seems a stupid assumption.

      You are making stupid assumptions. That seems stupid.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    11. Re:The vibration must suck by Bob+the+Super+Hamste · · Score: 1

      I have only had one vehicle with bad rings and that was only on the one cylinder that had a bad spark plug that had worn away from not being changed (previous owners never changed it). This wasn't a high end vehicle either but was an 88 Bronco II with a quarter million miles on it. Considering that most of the vehicles I have had comparable or higher miles I don't think there is a problem with rings in a properly maintained engine. Also I wouldn't worry about the length in a horizontally opposed configuration since you could just put it along the frame rails, rocker panels, or tunnel where the drive shaft/exhaust is run instead of under the traditional hood. As an added benefit this would help lower the center of gravity and improve the handling.

      --
      Time to offend someone
    12. Re:The vibration must suck by necro81 · · Score: 1

      Did you look at the video? Each unit has two pistons, horizontally opposed, and they form either end of the combustion chamber. The combustion forces the pistons in opposite directions, so there should be no net force that would cause vibration. However, this assumes that, for instance, the friction for each piston is equal, and that the power electronics extract power from each linear generator at the same rate. These are tricky things to guarantee in practice. Even if there is some mechanical imbalance, it may be possible to damp some of that out on-the-fly by, for instance, extracting more power from one linear generator over the other. The article mentions a firing rate of 50-60 Hz, which is sufficiently slow enough that a control system of, say, 10 kHz bandwidth ought to be able to handle it.

    13. Re:The vibration must suck by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe because it's wrong ?

      The proposed engine vibrates - 100% of the primary oscillation is unbalanced

      in standard engine designs balance piston vibrations by having them moving in opposite directions - 0% of the primary oscillation is unbalanced, as is >50% of the seconday oscilations.

      This engine would vibrate like fuck.

    14. Re:The vibration must suck by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Did you look at the video?

      No, I looked at the diagram.

      Each unit has two pistons, horizontally opposed, and they form either end of the combustion chamber.

      Too bad that wasn't in the diagram.

      However, this assumes that, for instance, the friction for each piston is equal, and that the power electronics extract power from each linear generator at the same rate.

      As long as you're willing to fire both cylinders at the same time regardless of compression, this should be mitigated by the valves closing at the same time, which is something we already expect in a modern engine. The piston closer to the valve will slow down sooner. Presumably, the engine will refuse to produce maximum output if the system detects that it can't synchronize the cylinders, implying impeded operation.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    15. Re:The vibration must suck by dj245 · · Score: 1

      Free piston engines have a distinct difference with respect to vibration. They can potentially couple a lot less vibration to the chassis than traditional designs because the vibration is only in one plane and there is no need to couple the engine to the chassis to provide torsional reaction force for the drive train.

      The vibration of any individual component doesn't matter, only the vibration that is coupled to the chassis of the vehicle. With a free piston design, there is no need to couple the engine directly to anything because you have no output shafts to couple to the drive train, and no mechanical reaction forces to contain. That means that the body of the engine can be decoupled from the chassis of the vehicle in the axis of vibration, and *allowed* to vibrate back and forth as much as it needs to. That provides the reaction force to the piston, and the forces coupled to the chassis are only the frictional loss in your mounting system.

      I'm not a free piston engine expert but vibration is generally a mechanical loss. If the engine were allowed to vibrate (or oscilate) back and forth as much as it liked, a substantial amount of energy would be used up in initiating and maintaining that motion.

      A related problem would be that if you tried to have the piston produce useful work, you would be essentially restraining the piston while the engine frame moved around like mad. It would be the equivalent of holding firmly to an small electric motor shaft and allowing the motor body to spin around. Fun to watch but no useful work is being done. The engine frame needs to be restrained in order for useful work to be done.

      --
      Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress at this period in history.
    16. Re:The vibration must suck by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Mount it between two springs with a shock on one side. Fully moving, but not firmly attached. Even with the "best" bushings, a gasoline-powered car still gets vibrations. Most are FWD, so you have the steering firmly attached to the wheels, and the power goes to the wheels, so you have the engine firmly attached to the wheels. There is no way to eliminate that vibration. That there's a new way, with lots of options, makes you go all Luddite. Fear change, you might have to learn something.

  8. Not an engineer'car guy, but... by kenh · · Score: 1

    How is this not just a one cylinder engine? Based on the description, that's what it sounds like.

    Why don't they just scale down (massively) from diesel electric locomotives and be done with it?

    --
    Ken
    1. Re:Not an engineer'car guy, but... by jonwil · · Score: 1

      Isn't the Chevy Volt PHEV exactly like that? Its got a gasoline engine that powers a generator that powers an electric motor that powers the wheels. It also has batteries you can plug in and charge up though.

    2. Re:Not an engineer'car guy, but... by gman003 · · Score: 2

      Rather than the cylinder driving a crankshaft, they're driving a linear alternator directly (basically an inverse solenoid - turning linear back-and-forth motion into electric current). That ought to lead to less losses from inertia and friction, as well as being more compact.

    3. Re:Not an engineer'car guy, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How is this not just a one cylinder engine? Based on the description, that's what it sounds like.

      No crankshaft and it generates electricity directly instead of turning a generator - making it more compact and lighter weight. Although, it will have the same problem as all internal combustion engines - lot's of wasted heat. If only that heat can be captured and turn into electricity.

    4. Re:Not an engineer'car guy, but... by amorsen · · Score: 1

      Diesel electric locomotives are horribly inefficient and heavy.

      --
      Finally! A year of moderation! Ready for 2019?
    5. Re:Not an engineer'car guy, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Diesel electric locomotives are horribly inefficient and heavy.

      Citation needed on the efficiency. Heavy is merely an attribute of the scale of the equipment it must move. A light locomotive would have reduced friction between the steel wheels and the rails, which would reduce the towing weight regardless of how much power it produced.

    6. Re:Not an engineer'car guy, but... by amorsen · · Score: 1

      They are just regular crappy diesel engines plus an inefficient electrical power train. Efficiency is not particularly a concern for freight trains; fuel is a small part of the operating expenses.

      --
      Finally! A year of moderation! Ready for 2019?
    7. Re:Not an engineer'car guy, but... by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Yet still much better than direct-drive Diesel.

    8. Re:Not an engineer'car guy, but... by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      Nevertheless a diesel-electric engine/train is more efficient than a pure diesel.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    9. Re:Not an engineer'car guy, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are mistaken. CSX spends something like $1.5 billion on fuel each year. This is about 20% of operating expenses. They are very interested in fuel economy.

    10. Re:Not an engineer'car guy, but... by Agent0013 · · Score: 1

      Actually, fuel is over 50% the operating expenses for long haul freight movers. It is their biggest expense and they would love to bring it down even more. And I don't know why you say it is inefficient because it is not. CSX can move a ton of freight over 400 miles on a gallon of fuel. They are asking GE and EMD to make natural gas locomotives so they can save fuel costs even more. So yes, fuel costs are a big deal.

      --

      -- ssoorrrryy,, dduupplleexx sswwiittcchh oonn.. -Quote found on actual fortune cookie.
    11. Re:Not an engineer'car guy, but... by necro81 · · Score: 1

      Its got a gasoline engine that powers a generator that powers an electric motor that powers the wheels

      Under certain driving circumstances, the Volt can also couple the ICE to the wheels. For some reason, when people first found out about this, and realized that the Volt isn't always a series hybrid, they got their knickers all in a twist.

    12. Re:Not an engineer'car guy, but... by Bob+the+Super+Hamste · · Score: 1

      Well considering that the engines that they use are not just a regular crappy diesel engine that one would find in a VW or even a semi turck but instead are those nice big high efficiency 2 stroke diesels that find uses in things like haul trucks, power generation, and, marine applications which like the rail industry care about fuel consumption since it actually isn't a small portion of their operating expense (a single engine at full load can consume hundreds of gallons of fuel an hour). So assuming a single train engine consuming 100 gallons of diesel fuel an hour at $3 a gallon (these are probably all under estimates) it would cost $300/hr in fuel for the engine. It wouldn't surprise me if the fuel cost was actually somewhere in the $500-$1000/hr range if not more. They also like to run these things 24 hours a day 7 days a week since they are a fairly large capital expense and if it isn't running it isn't making money so on the low end for a single engine they would spend about $260,000 a year on fuel for a single engine. So please tell me how fuel isn't a substantial part of the operating expense, since I bet they do care quite a bit about fuel efficiency. I would be surprised if the newest diesel engines they are putting in locomotives aren't getting around 45% efficiency since the largest low speed marine ones are over 50% now.

      --
      Time to offend someone
    13. Re:Not an engineer'car guy, but... by amorsen · · Score: 1

      Nevertheless a diesel-electric engine/train is more efficient than a pure diesel.

      A diesel-electric power train actually exists and works, so in that way it is certainly more efficient than a non-existent pure diesel power train.

      Diesel passenger trains often go with a lorry-like engine with mechanical gears; with one (or multiple) engines per wagon they do not need so much low-end torque for each engine and they can avoid the wasteful electric drive train.

      Hopefully diesel will go away for trains soon as more and more track is electrified.

      --
      Finally! A year of moderation! Ready for 2019?
  9. why not develop the solar magnet star cars? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    millions of miles per 'charge'. no subscription model yet? free the innocent stem cells no bomb us more mom us.. some still calling this 'weather'? http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=weather+manipulation+wmd+cabals oh what a feeling?

  10. Good Lord, man... by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 1

    ...you've invented the alternator!

    1. Re:Good Lord, man... by freeze128 · · Score: 1

      From the description, it sounds like they invented the weird piston machines that you can see in the Michael Jackson Moonwalker video game.

  11. Some things that make you go "Hmmm" by grmoc · · Score: 1

    There were 2 of these 10Kw units required to cruise at 75Mph, so the efficiency, assuming 35% thermal efficiency, is 22mpg.

    Given that they're small and easy to maintain, perhaps that doesn't matter if they're only backups, or if this is just a first-iteration technology that may get substantially better.

    The big concern imho, is vibration. Unlike a crankshaft-based engine/motor, there is no physical coupling of the pistons if you deploy two of these in a horizontal configuration (as TFA suggests would counter vibration).
    The lack of coupling means that the pistons are not mechanically synchronized, which means they don't create forces which act against each other.

    I'd have to imagine that one could approximate the physical coupling by varying the timing and mixture, but.. I have no idea how actually effective that'd be.

    Anyway.. vibration. Big deal.

    1. Re:Some things that make you go "Hmmm" by Jmc23 · · Score: 1

      So what you're saying is it'll sell like hotcakes in the type of small cars women drive?

      --
      Don't complain about syntax, grammar, or spelling. There is no.hell like input on android.
    2. Re:Some things that make you go "Hmmm" by Blaskowicz · · Score: 1

      The synchronization would have to be between the electronic control units. So it can be implemented by running e.g. an ethernet cable between the two engines.

    3. Re:Some things that make you go "Hmmm" by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 1

      Any piece of wire will do. Sure, use an ethernet cable.

    4. Re:Some things that make you go "Hmmm" by GrahamCox · · Score: 1

      How about having two pistons sharing a combustion chamber in a horizontally opposed arrangement? The forces would cancel leaving no net force on the outer casing. Also, to return the pistons, why not just make the other ends a combustion chamber as well, so it's double-acting? Again, forces cancel.

      I would imagine the real tricky thing would be to make the pistons work effectively as magnets within the generator coils - permanent magnets (even very strong rare-earth ones) wouldn't give you enough field - you'd want a coil in there, which immediately makes the thing a lot trickier to make - how do you connect to an isolated hot moving piston inside a cylinder?

    5. Re:Some things that make you go "Hmmm" by Blaskowicz · · Score: 1

      If that's wireless ethernet, then I need a wireless cable.

    6. Re:Some things that make you go "Hmmm" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The big concern imho, is vibration. Unlike a crankshaft-based engine/motor, there is no physical coupling of the pistons if you deploy two of these in a horizontal configuration (as TFA suggests would counter vibration).
      The lack of coupling means that the pistons are not mechanically synchronized, which means they don't create forces which act against each other.

      As mentioned in posts earlier there is no need to have coupling in the axis of vibration to the rest of the car.
      You can let the pistons vibrate as much as it wants since it is so much easier to prevent the vibration from spreading.

    7. Re:Some things that make you go "Hmmm" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How did you get "permanent magnets (even very strong rare-earth ones) wouldn't give you enough field" when the described example does just that?

    8. Re:Some things that make you go "Hmmm" by OrangeTide · · Score: 1

      Misogyny, you has it.

      --
      “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
    9. Re:Some things that make you go "Hmmm" by Jmc23 · · Score: 1
      You should look up the definition of that word, it does not mean what you think it does.

      I'm more like a philogynist who makes bad jokes.

      --
      Don't complain about syntax, grammar, or spelling. There is no.hell like input on android.
  12. Why not generate in both directions? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why not generate in both directions, and get AC current?

    1. Re:Why not generate in both directions? by Paradise+Pete · · Score: 1

      Why not generate in both directions, and get AC current?

      And add one more after that, giving you 3D current, an essential ingredient in building the flying car.

  13. Transduction mechanism? by oldhack · · Score: 1

    How's the back-and-forth motion converted to electric power?

    --
    Fuck systemd. Fuck Redhat. Fuck Soylent, too. Wait, scratch the last one.
    1. Re:Transduction mechanism? by Carnivore · · Score: 1

      The "mover" (same function as a rotor, but is linear instead of rotational) is pushed past the stator by the explosions. This also compresses a gas spring which returns the cylinder to the starting point when it rebounds.

    2. Re:Transduction mechanism? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You don't need rotational movement to drive an alternator. A magnet can move back and forth inside a coil and generate AC.

    3. Re:Transduction mechanism? by VortexCortex · · Score: 5, Funny

      You don't need rotational movement to drive an alternator. A magnet can move back and forth inside a coil and generate AC.

      Wait, what? That's all it takes to create the AC? The last time I checked the accepted theory involved a stork.
      What's motivating all those cowards to turn the car wheels? I feel like I'm missing something...
      Perhaps a Unix analogy?

    4. Re:Transduction mechanism? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's called a "linear alternator".

      Basically it's like one of those "shake flashlights".

    5. Re:Transduction mechanism? by Hamsterdan · · Score: 1

      The same way a speaker is driven (well the opposite actually)

      --
      I've got better things to do tonight than die.
  14. 10 kw by fyngyrz · · Score: 2

    10 kw is an interesting number for another reason, too -- 10 kwh is about the size of the average US home electrical draw. An hour of run time, some storage... assuming 10 kw is the output of these things, and various efficiencies, etc. Still, it's an interesting number. Sure seems like you could make an interesting power source from them.

    --
    I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    1. Re:10 kw by fyngyrz · · Score: 4, Funny

      eh, goddamit.

      10k kiowatt hours.

      WTF is my coffee?? Good grief.

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    2. Re:10 kw by oodaloop · · Score: 1

      10k kiowatt hours

      I expected much better spelling from someone named 'fyngyrz'!

      --
      Tic-Tac-Toe, Global Thermonuclear War, and relationships all have the same winning move.
    3. Re:10 kw by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 3, Interesting

      10 kw is an interesting number for another reason, too -- 10 kwh is about the size of the average US home electrical draw.

      For stationary residential use, you could run the thing on cheap natural gas (rather than expensive gasoline) and use the waste heat to warm your house. It would be personalized cogeneration.

      Disclaimer: Yes, I realize that outside North America, natural gas isn't cheap.

    4. Re:10 kw by supercrisp · · Score: 3, Insightful

      And it won't be cheap for long in the US. The natty gas industry is lobbying for it to become a "foreign policy tool." They want to ship it across the sea, somehow making it cheaper on the European market than Russian gas. I wonder who'll end up subsidizing that? The struggling US economy, or the almost bankrupt European economies, or Germany?

    5. Re:10 kw by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It wouldn't shock me at all if the Europeans agreed to a set amount at a higher-than-Russian price, just to keep the infrastructure in place to keep Putin from holding them hostage. And if I were living in Europe, I'd be in favor of that.

    6. Re:10 kw by Stuarticus · · Score: 1

      You think they're lobbying to make less money? They're probably banking on Russia turning the screw on Europe.

      --
      If you think someone isn't free to have a different definition of "freedom" you may be a tyrant.
    7. Re:10 kw by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The sad part is that we could easily fulfill all the USA's energy needs in a completely carbon-neutral way using biogas. We pay farmers not to farm at this point... they could be making methane, which can be piped nearly losslessly (as compared to electricity or gasoline, anyway).

      But a common sense solution would solve our unemployment problems and cut down on the political power of dirty energy conglomerates, so that won't happen. Hey, Dancing with the Stars is on!

      Our corporate sociopath lords and masters want high unemployment, and endless war on some random noun, so that they can continue to rule indefinitely. George Orwell was right.

    8. Re:10 kw by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And it won't be cheap for long in the US. The natty gas industry is lobbying for it to become a "foreign policy tool." They want to ship it across the sea, somehow making it cheaper on the European market than Russian gas. I wonder who'll end up subsidizing that? The struggling US economy, or the almost bankrupt European economies, or Germany?

      The price difference between what Russia is selling nat gas for in Europe overseas and what it now costs to produce in the US thanks to fracking is vast, somewhere like 10$ a cubic meter or whatever the measurement unit is.. even taking logistics of transport into account it's still pretty large, this will not be subsidized, instead it will provide a major surge to the US economy, it's almost like we played this perfectly..

    9. Re:10 kw by stoatwblr · · Score: 2

      There's more to it than that. Even without exports, the fracking bubble is declining rapidly and too many wells have depressed the price beyond economic sustainability (ie, much gas is being sold at a net loss). I'm surprised that producers haven't switched off their taps in the hope that prices would go up.

    10. Re:10 kw by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      I'm surprised that producers haven't switched off their taps in the hope that prices would go up.

      In many cases, they can't. In America, it is illegal to flare gas. So if you pump oil, and gas comes up with it (as it often does), you have to separate the gas and put into a pipeline, even if you lose money by doing so. Many wells on private land have a contract with the land owner that requires that the well be kept active, to keep the royalty checks flowing.

  15. Heat by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It looks as though it would have the same problem as other internal combustion engines: most of the energy from the fuel is wasted as heat.

    Maybe they should be working on thermocouple technology (or something else) and generate electricity from the cooling system and charge batteries or power wheels. Now that would increase efficiency greatly.

    1. Re:Heat by amorsen · · Score: 1

      Maybe they should be working on thermocouple technology (or something else) and generate electricity from the cooling system and charge batteries or power wheels. Now that would increase efficiency greatly.

      No. It would not increase efficiency greatly. The meagre temperature differences available as waste from a car engine will not provide much output from a heat engine.

      --
      Finally! A year of moderation! Ready for 2019?
    2. Re:Heat by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We're getting really damn close to your "most" being factually incorrect. Merc's current engines from F1 are over 40% efficient. It's rumoured that Honda's design is 40% efficient even without the turbo charger, which implies it may get close to 50% efficiency when they add the turbo.

    3. Re: Heat by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Eliminate the cooling system and replace it with a heat pump that exchanges with outside air and you will see that heat engine yield another 20% efficiency in captured electrical power. The question is whether or not that could be developed affordable, and whether the complex heat pump would just be another system to break.

  16. "Directly" by kruach+aum · · Score: 1

    So chemical energy generates mechanical energy which then generates electricity. This is not what the word "directly" means.

    1. Re:"Directly" by im_thatoneguy · · Score: 1

      Yeah this definitely isn't a direct electrical generator. But it could be far more easily distributed throughout a vehicle. Instead of every piston needing to be mechanically linked you could have them spread throughout the car and arranged somewhat arbitrarily (except for vibration considerations). So from that perspective they are kind of direct in that electricity comes directly out of a self contained unit instead of needing an engine connected to an alternator. Each piston is creating electricity. Technically even some sort of fusion plant isn't "directly" creating electricity unless the electrons just decided to leave the gasoline of their own free will. Even a solid state device like a peltier generator isn't "directly" extracting electricity, it's converting thermal to electricity. This isn't "directly" extracting electricity but it is just about as directly as is physically possible extracting electricity from the mechanical energy of combustion.

  17. Re:so how is it different from diesel electric loc by viperidaenz · · Score: 3, Informative

    RTFS.
    A diesel locomotive as a traditional diesel engine with a crankshaft that turns a generator. The rotational energy is converted in to electricity by moving coils past alternating magnetic fields.

    If move a single magnet back and forth through a coil it will also produce electricity.
    If you attach the magnet to the piston and the coil around the cylinder walls you don't need a crankshaft anymore. I guess in theory, less friction = less loss = more efficient. Without a crankshaft there isn't any side load put on the cylinder either, so that experiences less friction too.
    You still need mechanical movement to run values though, or you've just an inefficient 2-stroke cycle.
    Perhaps they need to develop decent electronic valves before they go telling everyone how efficient it is.

  18. It's probably the same on the same load however... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's probably the same on the same load however...

    If you think about constant speed, you have less metal, less weight, and cheaper costs to make. Less mechanical issues.
    You could even plug a turbo on it.

  19. Re:Just like a bunch of Slashfags by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The whole thing is generally black from soot, too. And you know what that means... It means we need some rope.

  20. Why use the gas chamber? by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 3, Interesting
    The description talks about using a gas chamber as a spring to push the piston back to starting position. Why? There is no crank shaft on the other side? We could imagine a dual acting piston with a combustion chamber on both sides. In a regular IC engine there is a flywheel to do the intake, compression and exhaust strokes soaking up the energy from the power stroke. Even with a dual acting piston, there is an issue there.

    The linear generator is also a motor. We should be able to use the magnetic fields to move the piston back and forth. Mechanical complexity of cams, crankshafts and flywheels and clutches replaced by the electrical complexity. Easier to handle and more reliable too. But still don't see any reason to believe it is going to be more efficient.

    --
    sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
    1. Re:Why use the gas chamber? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      So could they

      quote: "Two basic design approaches have emerged: the first is a structure with two opposed combustion chambers; the second, a structure with one combustion chamber and one gas spring chamber."

    2. Re:Why use the gas chamber? by Thud457 · · Score: 1

      I think a lot of the posters in this story are confused because their suggested application is to put this in an automobile.

      1. there is no mechanical linkage to the drivetrain, this is a GENERATOR.
      2. one design goal was to have only one hot end so they could isolate the permanent magnets to avoid demagnetization.
      3. this is not very useful as a motor, lacking an mechanical output.

      It seems possible that they could make a dual-stroke version with a combustion chamber on each end. If they were willing to make the generator more than twice as long to keep the magnets away from the 2 hot ends. And deal with more complicated timing issues. And double the weight. And add more moving parts.

      --

      the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff

  21. Make a vehicle with a single one? by Blaskowicz · · Score: 1

    10 kilowatts ought to be enough, it's like the output of 50 human beings (unless they're working really hard at pedaling), I also don't feel the need to go over 50 mph.

    In fact it is a good match for the european category of heavy motorised quadricycle : up to 15 kilowatts, up to 1 ton payload (when transporting goods ; max vehicle weight at 550 kg in this case) and top speed not very high.
    If the engine can be scaled down in power as well as size and weight you open up the lightweight category which is max 4 kilowatts, max 200 kg payload and slow but can be driven without driver license (45kph max)

    Have just enough battery range for driving out of parkings, driveways etc. and very short trips.. That drives cost, weight and charging time down and is a nice solution for when you just wanted to pick up stuff at a nearby store or in a rural area, go to the village back and forth.

    For the engines themselves, free-piston and electrics, that seems elegant. The thermal engine runs at fixed rpm and is ideally suited for a vehicle where there would be no transmission, chain, crank whatever ; the electric ones give full torque. For full size vehicles it is maybe not so much a revolution (with the exception of being able to burn any fuel, including synthetic ones and ammonia)

  22. Rotational Energy Conserved by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    2quick notes;
    Rotational Energy in a mechanical system is conserved.
    Heat is biggest waste in any internal combustion engine, so far.

    Rotational energy in an operating internal combustion engine is conserved not unlike a flywheel retains energy until friction or other force causes it to slow.This is perhaps the most efficient thing about most gas/diesel engines.

    The worst thing about internal combustion engines is the waste heat! However there are numerous methods available, to recapture this waste heat.Heat exchangers can be employed, even a small steam engine can be run from the manifold heat. Perhaps the most surprising method of recovery of heat from a gasoline engine was (to Me) when a small solar cell was placed beneath a hot engine and the heat caused a full release of 18 volts from the solar cell, about all one could expect from the same solar cell in direct sunlight.. This brings to mind the potential of a hybrid composite gas-electric engine having incorporated wiring for magnetic fields and ceramic/silicon outer layer for thermoelectric direct conversion to electricity.

  23. I saw "Directly" and thought MHD. by jeffb+(2.718) · · Score: 1

    At least, a magnetohydrodynamic generator is the only thing I can think of off the top of my head that "directly" converts energy from combustion to electricity. Still doesn't look like it's anywhere close to the efficiency of a good fuel cell, though, and those superconducting magnets would make for an awfully heavy vehicle. (Now, if you used liquid hydrogen for both fuel and cryo-coolant...)

  24. engineering heaven by PopeRatzo · · Score: 2

    Felix Wankel is somewhere laughing his ass off.

    --
    You are welcome on my lawn.
    1. Re:engineering heaven by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Haha, really tho. I had to search all comments to see that someone mentioned it(Was my first thought).

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wankel_engine

      Would still seem to be superior. I would how the two would compare fuel per energy out.

    2. Re:engineering heaven by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

      Elegant design, and lots of HP per liters of displacement. The problem is that you often run into carbon fouling and the apex seals break. They also need oil metered in with the fuel as there isn't an oil sump. Now combine the need to burn oil with the fact a combustion cycle doesn't have enough time to stay in the chamber and you have pollution. It's why the entire length of the exhaust system is one giant catalytic converter.

      Now if they can make a diesel Wankel with strong enough apex seals, now you're talking!

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    3. Re:engineering heaven by rahvin112 · · Score: 1

      The last (AFAIK only) Wankel engine every built commercially got 8MPG. It also proved to be a son of a bitch to maintain because the seals would go bad and it would require a total engine rebuild.

      A paragon of efficiency and simplicity the Wankel engine is not.

    4. Re:engineering heaven by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      I don't know nothin' about no apex seals, but I drove a '93 RX-7 a few times and that thing would push you down against your seat back when you hit the gas. It was a twin turbo and the owner told me it was getting close to 400 bhp, but I can't say one way or the other, but man, I liked that car.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    5. Re:engineering heaven by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      Actually, it looks like they build quite a few different versions of the Wankel, from little econobox models to screaming twin-turbos.

      And according to most sources I've seen, they only get about 1 to 3 mpg worse mileage than a similarly powered piston engine. But hey, (and this is one of those rare times when the phrase really applies), your mileage may vary.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    6. Re:engineering heaven by ArhcAngel · · Score: 1

      The Mazda RX8 got up to 23 MPG.

      --
      "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." - K
    7. Re:engineering heaven by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      Wankel engines are quite efficient meanwhile, pretty close to normal ICEs. However literature might be hard to find as many call them now (for what ever reason) rotary engines.
      Mazda is still selling sport vehicles with Wankel engines ... a friend of mine drives one, an awesome car.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    8. Re:engineering heaven by tinkerton · · Score: 1

      Mazda is still selling sport vehicles with Wankel engines ... a friend of mine drives one, an awesome car.

      The RX8 has been sold for a long time but they discontinued it a few years back. They're working on a successor but as long as they fail to satisfy the emission requirements it's not going to enter the market.

    9. Re:engineering heaven by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and a twin-turbo straight-6 in a much heavier car can get 30 mpg while generating more power at less RPMs, and being WAY more reliable.

      The rotary engine really only makes sense in propeller aircraft.

  25. Old concept, but might work. by joe_frisch · · Score: 1

    Free piston engines have been around since a least the 50s. Described in detail in Taylor's "The Internal Combustion Engine in Theory and Practice"1977, rev 1985, An excellent set of book on how internal combustion engines work.

    The classic version used a turbine for output and was not very efficient. Using direct electromagnetic output for a hybrid is an interesting idea. One of the great weaknesses of the free piston engine is poor low power performance, and that isn't needed in a hybrid. Not clear though that it can do better than the (almost) Atkinson cycle engine in a Prius - (a cycle also described in detail in the Taylor book).

      The Toyota design is unusual, most free piston engines use opposing pistons to fix vibration. Not clear why toyota uses a single piston.(or two separate pistons).

    As with most engine designs, the devil is in the details - cooling, lubrication, etc. Sometimes a design that is good in concept just can't compete with the enormous amount of development that has been done on conventional designs.

    1. Re:Old concept, but might work. by Blaskowicz · · Score: 1

      I read about free piston engine about one year ago, and it described a single piston going back and forth.
      Very interesting that the concept was devised in the 50s, it makes me think that the flying car was invented in the 50s as well. Only it was uncontrollable and not worth for anything except hovering over the ground for 30 seconds or such.

    2. Re:Old concept, but might work. by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      The classic version used a turbine for output and was not very efficient.

      You know, I just imagined a use for this engine that actually takes advantage of the fact that it's basically a big air compressor. If you added a valve system on the other end, you could bleed off part of the pressure and feed it into the MDI air car system. This is the component that makes plug-in air hybrids efficient to refuel with fuel. Well, if you add engine brake technology to it, that is. And then you feed the engine brake exhaust into the air tank. But since it has this other side to it, it doesn't have to come off the exhaust side and it's nice clean air. Presumably, it will also need some sort of filtered intake :p

      You could probably make it even smaller and still have it be useful, given the size of car that's being powered with air so far.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    3. Re:Old concept, but might work. by joe_frisch · · Score: 1

      The original use of free piston engines was as air compressors to drive turbines, so its a good idea. I turned out in practice though that they were not as efficient as expected and they were never widely used despite many years of R*D.

  26. Re:so how is it different from diesel electric loc by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    A 2-stroke carefully tuned to a smallish rpm band can be very efficient.
    Simple, light, powerful - not terribly environmentally friendly

  27. Most? Hardly by the_humeister · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I bought a ScanGauge II back in 2008 and use it to this day. Plug it into the OBD II port to read data. One of the data points is engine torque, which can be converted to power. My previous car, a 2008 VW Jetta with the 2.5 L engine needed 35 hp to maintain 75 mph on a flat road. 26 hp is about right for my wife's 2011 Prius at 75 mph.

    1. Re:Most? Hardly by sribe · · Score: 1

      I bought a ScanGauge II back in 2008 and use it to this day.

      These days you get a dongle that plugs in and communicates wirelessly with an app on your smart phone, which greatly increases the flexibility for user interface, and databases for providing more info re codes. FYI I went with the BlueDriver from Lemur Monitors. You can find tons that appear identical for a lot less money, BUT if you dig through car enthusiast forums for reviews, you find that an awful lot of the cheap ones use unlicensed knock-offs of some of the basic circuitry, and tend to die after very little use.

  28. Re:so how is it different from diesel electric loc by matfud · · Score: 1

    They have. In the prototype they use hydrolic valves.

  29. What about Fuel Cell by rossdee · · Score: 1

    A fuel cell is pretty good at converting chemical energy into electrity directly.

    Of course they work best on Hydrogen, but we need to stop burning carbon anyway.

  30. We noticed. Get out of the fast lane! by raymorris · · Score: 1

    I also don't feel the need to go over 50 mph.

    So it YOU! If you're that guy, please, please get out of the fast lane! It's dangerous to have everybody switching to the slow lane to pass you. ;)

    1. Re:We noticed. Get out of the fast lane! by Blaskowicz · · Score: 1

      So you're the guy tailgating me :).
      Driving slowly (slowish) makes it easy to follow the rules.
      On the highway, drive at whatever the speed you wish on the right lane ; if there's traffic riding with the haul trucks might be an option. On a non-highway road, drive at whatever speed but if there's speedy traffic you might be driven to drive faster.. But either way this way of driving works if you consider the speed limit as a maximum instead of a minimum.

      It might be more relevant in Europe with lots of turns on the road, whereas US roads may be straight lines with even the whole State planned as parallel and orthogonal lines. I like driving at constant speed whereas others speed in the lines and slow down in the turns.

    2. Re:We noticed. Get out of the fast lane! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Big Oil executed the perfect crime in increasing the speed limits from 55 mph to 70-85mph. Not only does it make electric cars harder to build and use more energy at higher speeds, the higher speeds also mean that they get 20%-30% more profits from people making the same trips because they don't want to spend and extra hour in a state.

      There is a conspiracy against automakers making low Cd vehicles too...

  31. already exists by slashmydots · · Score: 1

    They demonstrated and mentioned several concept cars on Top Gear (england) where it was a full electric car that had a diesel generator in it. It wasn't as good as realtime but it'd give you some miles in a pinch. It was relatively quiet and they said it was over 100MPG effective in most models.

  32. Re:so how is it different from diesel electric loc by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

    How environmentally unfriendly? I remember reading about an environmental contest, and one entrant was disqualified for submitting a 2-stroke. It would have won, beating all the 4-strokes for economy/emissions, but they changed the rules to exclude 2-stroke after the entry was accepted.

  33. Cells by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Each pistol could act as it's own, independant cell, greatly reducing the chance of catastrophic engine failure.

  34. Dissapointed by oldhack · · Score: 1

    Nobody cracks the obvious joke? Slashdot really is dead.

    --
    Fuck systemd. Fuck Redhat. Fuck Soylent, too. Wait, scratch the last one.
  35. magnetic seals by bussdriver · · Score: 1

    I've seen some amazing prototype demos of magnetic fluids as a sealant. The concept is sound and I don't know why somebody isn't doing anything with them. It can hold quite a lot-- magnets keep the liquid in the gaps and there is minimal friction; much less than any solids. somebody just needs to engineer a synthetic oil that is magnetic... but even if they don't, just the magnetic fluid should be enough...

    not sure of the speeds... but the demo I saw was for an air compressor that used less energy (due to the seals being essentially a fluid that was between water and gas in viscosity... and boy did it stain anything it touched...)

  36. Efficiency is from losing loses. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I would guess that with a linear action, you don't have to deal with the crank shaft grinding at all the joints, flexing a belt to run an alternator, etc. The result, less friction, which yields more efficiency.

  37. Nice. Time to try this again. by Animats · · Score: 1

    it's an old idea, but worth trying now because electric power conversion works very well now. This thing generates AC at some variable frequency and voltage depending on fuel flow and load. The waveform that comes out is awful. (See the article). Two successive cycles can be quite different. There's no flywheel or rotating mass to smooth out the motion.

    Today, converting that irregular electrical output into something more consistent is straightforward. The output is going to be fed into some kind of switching power supply, probably with an ultracapacitor to smooth things out. This beats trying to stablize the thing mechanically.

  38. Re:so how is it different from diesel electric loc by Cyfun · · Score: 1

    Koenigsegg has some pneumatic valve technology that is rather promising.

    --
    In Soviet Russia, dot slashes YOU!
  39. Re:so how is it different from diesel electric loc by viperidaenz · · Score: 0

    They just need to change their name so people know how to pronounce it. I don't care how fast their cars are.

  40. who needs valves? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    You can do four stroke engines without valves, a duke engine is a good example.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c19kn3drdFU

  41. Horizontal orientation by ThatsNotPudding · · Score: 1

    One of the problem with boxer-style engines (older VWs, 911s, Subarus) was that the horizontal orientation of the piston bores meant the bores, rings, and pistons wore more rapidly at the bottom due to self-weight when compared to vee or vertical engines. The slide showed roller bearings to support the rotor / piston, so maybe that's less of an issue.

  42. Practical Wankel engines are not that inefficient. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Example: Mazda RX8 (full on 2 seater sports car). 26MPG is reported by real owners. Seals stopped being a problem in the late 70s. I have 2 RX7 from the early 80s, they do better than 26MPG and rebuilds are not something I'm doing all the time.

    But you are correct, the Wankel is an evolutionary dead end. The reason is simple: The combustion chamber moves around the engine (look up a picture of it, really cool) and so the hot gasses loose heat to the walls. As a result the efficiency is less.

    Even that didn't kill the Wankel (for Mazda). What did was it's rather bad emissions performance... due to lack of engineering experience perhaps, but I also think because the geometry that makes it less efficient also means incomplete combustion.

  43. I am a different AC but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Electric cars work. This charges the batteries as you go. You can have smaller batteries. Where is the problem?

  44. Re:so how is it different from diesel electric loc by wagnerrp · · Score: 3, Informative

    2-stroke engines are "unfriendly" because they use positive pressure from the piston to pump the charge into the cylinder. That means you have charge in your crank case, which in turn means you need oil mixed in with your charge, and that oil gets exhausted as unburned soot. Add a blower to pump the charge into the cylinder, independent of the motion of the piston, and your emissions issues vanish.

  45. RTFA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why not link to the original fucking page

    http://www.tytlabs.com/tech/fpeg/fpeg02.html

      you know - the one with the fucking "copyright toyota" marks all over it and with the original info, pictures, etc..

    Or the actual documents

    http://papers.sae.org/2014-01-1203/ "Development of Free Piston Engine Linear Generator System Part 1 - Investigation of Fundamental Characteristics"

    http://papers.sae.org/2014-01-1193/ "Development of Free Piston Engine Linear Generator System Part 2 - Investigation of Control System for Generator"

  46. No pre-ignition, ultra high variable compression by Big_Breaker · · Score: 1

    Comments about mechanical simplicity are missing the key advantage. There is no risk of pre-ignition bending a piston rod if if fuel is introduced too early in the cycle. Direct injection also solves this - there is not fuel in the cylinder until it's safe. This is the solution for diesel engines and allows for higher compression. But a crankshaft makes it hard to change an engine's compression ratio, which can be useful, especially in a multi-fuel setup. A crankshaft dictates how far the piston can rise towards the cylinder head and determines a fixed volume at top-dead-center, the highest point in the piston's travel. In a free piston engine the piston is free to top out closer or farther from the cylinder head.

  47. Why does NYC have the same limit as Mojave? by raymorris · · Score: 1

    Who thought it was a good idea for Washington to dictate a national speed limit in the first place? Are traffic conditions in the Mojave desert the same as an urban freeway?

    There are parts of Texas and Nevada where you can drive for an hour, in a straight line, without seeing another car. Is that anything like the northeast ? Why should the speed limits be the same?

    1. Re:Why does NYC have the same limit as Mojave? by Smidge204 · · Score: 1

      Speed limits have not been set at the federal level since 1987.

      =Smidge=

  48. Re:so how is it different from diesel electric loc by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

    That's a problem with common implementations, not with 2-stroke itself. That's why the guys in the contest (colorado I think) got kicked out. I was hoping someone would call me an idiot for not citing it and link to it. Put valves on the 2-stroke and it fixes all the problems you mention. 2-stroke will be more efficient than a 4-stroke because the heat lost in the 3 non-power strokes reduces efficiency compared to the 1 non-power in a 2-stroke. And if this crankless engine takes off, I see someone coming out with a 2-sided piston for a double-2-stroke, making power on every stroke. They'll make the engine half the size or twice the power. And you could turn off half when not needed. So you make one big enough for single-side operation cruise, and the other side kicks in only for low-battery conditions.

  49. Re:so how is it different from diesel electric loc by stoatwblr · · Score: 1

    "Without a crankshaft there isn't any side load put on the cylinder either, so that experiences less friction too."

    There are alternatives to cranks which don't produce sideloads on the piston/cylinder. The best also extract more 30% energy from the stroke as they're not subject to cosine rules.

    Downside: hideous mechanical complexity. They've been tested and work, but they require the bottom end be a lot more complex than it is now.

    http://www.shelleys.demon.co.u...
    http://www.wisemanengine.com/a...
    http://www.scalzoautomotiveres...

    The simplest is simply a straight rod connected to the piston which attaches to the crank rod via a silder - these are commonly used in ships and large stationary engines, but they increase the height of the engine by _at least_ the length of the piston stroke and they don't give any mechanical advantage over a standard crankshaft setup.

    There's also the scotch yoke, but it's not wonderful under high loads.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S...

  50. Re:so how is it different from diesel electric loc by stoatwblr · · Score: 1

    There are plenty of non-charged-crankshaft 2 stroke designs around. If you use an external supercharger (or turbo driven off exhaust pressure) you don't need to use crankcase pressure.

    Writing off 2 strokes because _one_ design is polluting is a bad idea.

  51. Re:No pre-ignition, ultra high variable compressio by Smidge204 · · Score: 1

    You can get the equivalent to variable compression ratio by altering valve timing; delaying the closing of the intake valve lowers compression ratio.

    There are also .... unique ways to vary the stroke length given a fixed crankshaft, but that adds complexity, not reduces it.
    =Smidge=

  52. In 1987, they set the limit at 65MPH. In1995, 2001 by raymorris · · Score: 1

    On April 2, 1987, Surface Transportation and Uniform Relocation Assistance Act SET the speed limit at 65 MPH.

    You are probably thinking of the 1995 National Highway System Designation Act, which gave states much more freedom.
    Still, in 2001 Houston was negotiating with the feds over speed limits, which were hen being indirectly set by the EPA.

  53. Re:so how is it different from diesel electric loc by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

    All of those engines look great, for producing small amounts of power.
    http://www.scalzoautomotiveres... is the best though, If you look at the 3D models you can see they've kept the large surface area bearing on the crankshaft, but the other two, which need to handle at least as much force are tiny.

    The first and second ones are basically the same, all the force of the fuel exploding is transferred through a single tooth of a planetary gear.

  54. 2 cylinders 1 piston by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I expected 2 cylinders at opposite ends with 1 piston in the middle for back-and-forth motion.

  55. Re:so how is it different from diesel electric loc by stoatwblr · · Score: 1

    I agree with the assessment about power and stress ponts, but bear in mind that we _are_ talking about small amounts of power.

    One of the largest advantages of the toyota design is that you can use power modules and only fire up as many as are needed, which gets around the issue of piston engines only being most efficient around full load. That alone will improve the overall efficiency of the setup from the typical 5-15% to the 25-30% range.

    There's another design I ran across a few years ago which has been tested in real world situations and works well, developing a lot of torque, but at cost of utterly hideous mechanical complexity (the crank is replaced with 2 counterrotating butterfly wheels and the connecting rod rides on top of them, rigidly attached to the piston)

    All reciprocating stuff all has disadvantages though - primarily vibration. Fuel cells are more efficient and quiet but they require levels of fuel purity currently unavailable in portable applications.

    At the other extreme from car engines, this is a good example of a slider crank: http://qualityjunkyard.com/200...

    Wave disks (essentially an inverted whittle turbine) look interesting, but proabbly aren't practical and almost certainly won't achieve the claimed improvements. http://wattsupwiththat.com/201...

  56. Re:so how is it different from diesel electric loc by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

    One of the largest advantages of the toyota design is that you can use power modules and only fire up as many as are needed, which gets around the issue of piston engines only being most efficient around full load. That alone will improve the overall efficiency of the setup from the typical 5-15% to the 25-30% range.

    AKA, variable displacement engines.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V...
    It's been done since the 80's. It's been done properly for 10 years too.

  57. Re:so how is it different from diesel electric loc by stoatwblr · · Score: 1

    Yes, it's a form of variable displacement - much better than the types previously seen in auto engines (cylinder deactivation)

    Cylinder deactivation on anything rigidly attached to a crankshaft is an imperfect way of doing variable displacement as there are still significant frictional losses (Try turning a crankshaft by hand with the head off and cams disconnected - you'll feel it)

    If you don't have a crankshaft then the pistons can be stopped entirely, resulting in greater efficiency.

    This idea has a lot of merit and is extremely compact, but I do wonder how they'll kill the vibration issue.

  58. Re:so how is it different from diesel electric loc by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

    Apparently the pumping losses - moving air through the intake/throttle/valves/exhaust incurs more loss than the friction.
    Also, turning the crankshaft when there is no oil pressure is going to be harder than when there is. The bearings that connect the conrods to the crankshaft and the ones that support the crankshaft are designed to be fed with oil so there is no metal-to-metal contact.

    Most of the friction will be coming from the piston rings