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Study: Rats Regret Making the Wrong Decision

An anonymous reader writes "Researchers at the University of Minnesota have discovered that rats in a decision making experiment showed three behaviors consistent with regret. David Redish and his graduate student Adam Steiner '...trained rats to do a task they call "restaurant row." The rat ran around a circle past a series of four spokes, each leading to a different flavor of food. As the rat came to the entrance of each spoke, a tone sounded that indicated how long it would have to wait to receive that specific flavor of food. The rat could choose whether to stay or go, depending on how much it liked that food and how long it would have to wait...The rats showed three behaviors consistent with regret. First, the rats only looked backwards in the regret conditions, and not in the disappointment conditions. Second, they were more likely to take a bad deal if they had just passed up a good deal. And third, instead of taking their time eating and then grooming themselves afterwards, the rats in the regret conditions wolfed down the food and immediately took off to the next restaurant.'"

94 comments

  1. Wow. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    That means even a rat is more ethical/honorable than former U.S. president George W. Bush.

    1. Re:Wow. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      This experiment says nothing of rat ethics. Their decisions affected them alone. In the case of politicians, that's hardly ever the case.
      If the rat could send a group of rats to murder another group of rats they had never seen before so that a third group of rats would win a lot of food and give the first rat a tiny share, then it'd be similar to what you refer to.

    2. Re:Wow. by Arker · · Score: 2, Interesting

      "That means even a rat is more ethical/honorable than former U.S. president George W. Bush."

      I have to disagree. There is no ethics or honor demonstrated here, simply regret over not getting a particular treat.

      In order to be ethical or unethical you first must have the mental capability to frame ethical questions and grasp ethical concepts, and all evidence indicates rats and most if not all other animals on the planet cannot do that, so they can be neither ethical nor unethical. There is no point in accusing a rat of acting unethically, he is simply being a rat and if you expected anything else you are a fool.

      Some would say the same is true of politicians.

      --
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      Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
    3. Re:Wow. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      In order to be ethical or unethical you first must have the mental capability to frame ethical questions and grasp ethical concepts, and all evidence indicates rats and most if not all other animals on the planet cannot do that

      It is pretty well documented that Washoe could grasp ethical concepts.
      There are other tests that have been done where simians show to have a pretty good grasp of "unfairness".

      When it comes to non-simian mammals there have been recordings of carnivores appearing to show guilt after realizing that their prey was pregnant.
      Where the prey had newborns there have been cases where the carnivore have adopted/protected the child.
      It can be speculated whether this behavior is a built-in response where all mammals find mammal children to be "cute", but the same speculation can be had for what humans call ethics. After all, ethical behavior makes a large group work and be strong together while unethical behavior breaks it apart. There is a clear advantage to being ethical and promoting it in others.

    4. Re:Wow. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So it wasn't God that gave us morals and ethics? Who would have thought?

    5. Re:Wow. by Vinegar+Joe · · Score: 1

      As Hillary Clinton says: "What difference – at this point, what difference does it make?"

      --
      "The average reporter we talk to is 27 years old......They literally know nothing." - Ben Rhodes
    6. Re:Wow. by Kazoo+the+Clown · · Score: 2

      That means even a rat is more ethical/honorable than former U.S. president George W. Bush.

      Yeah, and every other politician too. And most of the mainstream media. Or maybe the latter is merely incompetent...

    7. Re:Wow. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How do you hold anyone one to account if 30 years later you shrug and say "What difference – at this point, what difference does it make?"

      Oh I killed an entire village "What difference – at this point, what difference does it make? They are all dead."

    8. Re:Wow. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you're saying Hillary is brain damaged?

    9. Re:Wow. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Obama didn't kill anyone off. Bush killed thousands of American soldiers and never regretted it.

    10. Re:Wow. by Arker · · Score: 1

      Yeah it's actually pretty well established Washoe could do nothing of the kind. She had a functional vocabulary of ~300-350 words IIRC, between half to a third of the basic vocabulary needed to function at the same level as a severely retarded human. This is a vocabulary consisting entirely of concrete referents with abstraction present only at a very basic level. Her accomplishments were significant, and Chimpanzees (like all of us Apes) are quite intelligent in comparison to most animals, but she never showed any ability to "grasp ethical concepts" - and, btw, your link does not claim otherwise.

      "After all, ethical behavior makes a large group work and be strong together while unethical behavior breaks it apart. There is a clear advantage to being ethical and promoting it in others."

      That's not at all true - ethical behaviour is more likely to have the opposite effect, since large groups are almost invariably organized around unethical (but profitable) behaviour in the first place, ethics is usually seen as a disruptive influence and resisted with all available force.

      --
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  2. So... by thieh · · Score: 1

    "Oh drat." - Said the rat who got caught in the mouse trap

  3. Duh by Shakrai · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I'm not sure which emotions would go through my mind as the boa constrictor tightened its grip, but I'd imagine regret would be among them.

    Gods, it's awesome being on the top of the food chain....

    --
    I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
    We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    1. Re: Duh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He doesn't know?

    2. Re:Duh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm not sure which emotions would go through my mind as the boa constrictor tightened its grip, but I'd imagine regret would be among them.

      Gods, it's awesome being on the top of the food chain....

      Don't go in your basement...

    3. Re:Duh by WinstonWolfIT · · Score: 1

      ... said the victim while the tiger crouched...

    4. Re:Duh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      Really. Its a "food web", plenty of interactions between species. If you wanted to place any specie on the "top" of the food chain, it would be an apex preditor, which is not a very secure niche at all, any problem and the whole heap "simplifies", removing you first. (Tigers are endangered, phytoplankton, not so much)
              Level 1: Plants and algae make their own food and are called primary producers.
              Level 2: Herbivores eat plants and are called primary consumers.
              Level 3: Carnivores that eat herbivores are called secondary consumers.
              Level 4: Carnivores that eat other carnivores are called tertiary consumers.
              Level 5: Apex predators that have no predators are at the top of the food chain.
        A team of French researchers set about calculating the human trophic level (HTL) for every country for which data is available, and their results were published in PNAS. They found that the global HTL average is 2.21, which puts the human diet on par with pigs and anchovies.
      So we are slightly below the middle for the average diet.

      http://www.forbes.com/sites/alexberezow/2013/12/03/humans-arent-at-the-top-of-the-food-chain/
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trophic_level

    5. Re:Duh by cyn1c77 · · Score: 0

      I'm not sure which emotions would go through my mind as the boa constrictor tightened its grip, but I'd imagine regret would be among them.

      Gods, it's awesome being on the top of the food chain....

      I hate to break it to you, but you're not at the top.

      Go camping without a firearm in Africa, a South American jungle, or the Arctic to experience regret.

    6. Re:Duh by lgw · · Score: 2

      Humans lived successfully in each region for millennia, and eventually learned to hunt just about anything. No firearm required. The shovel would have been an amazingly useful tool for the primitive man faced with a large aggressor, however. Now, sans firearm, it's just a matter of a tiger trap and patience.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    7. Re:Duh by ozmanjusri · · Score: 2

      Now, sans firearm, it's just a matter of a tiger trap and patience.

      In "Africa, a South American jungle, or the Arctic", that would geological-level patience...

      --
      "I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
    8. Re:Duh by Shakrai · · Score: 2

      Go camping without a firearm in Africa, a South American jungle, or the Arctic to experience regret.

      Why would I do that? That makes as much sense as my cat asking me to declaw and detooth her.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    9. Re:Duh by Jason+Levine · · Score: 1

      My ninth grade science teacher had a boa constrictor and decided to show us a feeding one day. He put the snake on one side of a walled off area and a mouse on the other side. The mouse calmly walked up to the snake and sniffed its nose. One blink later (literally, it was that fast), the snake was coiled around the mouse with its mouth over the mouse's head. The mouse tried struggling for a few seconds but quickly went limp.

      I honestly don't think there would be enough time for regret if a boa wrapped around you like that. Your mind would be too clouded by panic, pain, and oxygen deprivation to even allow something like regret to enter.

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
    10. Re:Duh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And a carnivore that eats all it can, all the time, is called a congressman.

    11. Re:Duh by lgw · · Score: 1

      Have you seen a group take down an elephant with spears? There are a few videos. Dangerous stuff. A tiger trap would make short work of an elephant - heck, a covered pit about 3 feet deep would do it IIRC. Just as well - I like elephants.

      Hmm, give the elephants the elusive "shovel" technology and the world would be a more interesting place.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    12. Re:Duh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's misleading. What ecologists call "top of the food chain" and what laypeople mean are very different. In the layperson sense, we are very much the top of the food chain. Trying to argue against one definition of "top" versus another definition is called an argument from ambiguity. There is no disagreement between scientists and laypeople, just a misunderstanding. I think stories like this are obnoxious because they only create confusion, not dispel it.

  4. Re:True, but politically incorrect by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    A lot of sensitive types will get "offended" and it will be modded down.

    Are you sure it's sensitivity and not just an appropriate use of the "Redundant" mod?

    Rats are well known to be social animals, and respond with loyalty and defensive behavior to protect their social group. Bush on the other hand, is just a traitor to humanity..

  5. Incapable Humans by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Where did we get all the evidence suggesting animals (i.e. humans) are incapable of making decisions?

  6. chicken by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    or egg

    which came first, the conclusion or the proposition?

    If that's how you define regret, then yes, they certainly displayed it.

  7. Also known as "hungry" by Culture20 · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Looking around for other food immediately? They could have just been hungry.

    1. Re:Also known as "hungry" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Clearly you're not spending much time writing grant appications these days.

    2. Re:Also known as "hungry" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      > Clearly you're not spending much time writing grant appications these days.

      And even less time reading TFA...

    3. Re:Also known as "hungry" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Perhaps they were checking to see if the guys and gals in labcoats were looking?

  8. Great by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Now we just need a way to make them interface with operating systems and log away happily at the scientific results as the rats look back at the penguin that could have been.

  9. Not surprising by The+Grim+Reefer · · Score: 5, Interesting

    It's not really that surprising. Rats are pretty smart. Especially compared to many other rodents. My daughter had a pet rat, it was pretty surprising how attached my wife got to it. We had originally planned to let her get two rats because they are very social and do better in pairs. But the one my daughter picked did not like other rats at all. The people at the pet store said that she got into some pretty nasty fights with any other rats, even the ones from her original litter. But she really craved human interaction. My daughter forgot to lock her cage once. It was within the first two week of her getting the rat. It was not even five minutes later that my wife looked down because she felt something on her foot. The rat almost immediately found my wife and was trying to climb her leg.

    Food is the best way to train a rat. we noticed that the one my daughter had would often times turn down food it liked if it thought we had something else that it liked better. I don't think I've seen too many other animals that would do that.

    1. Re:Not surprising by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Though their brains are tiny, they are mammals and as such have limbic systems, which means they feel emotions. I would expect that their emotional depth and range would be slightly less than that of a human, however.

      Mice do too, for that matter, despite lacking the good sense to avoid walking right into the open mouth of a waiting lizard.

    2. Re:Not surprising by sjwt · · Score: 2

      My pet rat used to get out and play with the cat, kind of like a tag and hide game.. I dont know if they were playing the same game, but years later my brother had a Chihuahua and it used to play in the back yard with a wild rat.. it played tag some days for hours.. chasing after the rat, taping it, then running from it whilst it was being chased.. so funny..

      --
      You have 5 Moderator Points!
      Which Helpless Linux zealot/MS basher do you want to mod down today?
    3. Re:Not surprising by shadowrat · · Score: 4, Informative

      In a former life, i worked at a pet store. People would often come in looking for a hamster or gerbil. I'd say, "ok, but first let me show you these rats."

      Most people balked at the idea. Every once in a while someone would recognize that spark of intelligence, friendliness and curiosity that makes them such wonderful pets. Those people who purchased a rat invariably came back to tell me what a wonderful pet it was. Often times they would come back for their next rat years later. By years, i of course mean just 2ish. The unfortunate thing about pet rats is they just don't live that long.

    4. Re:Not surprising by mjwx · · Score: 1

      I don't think I've seen too many other animals that would do that.

      Cats, dogs, birds.

      Pretty much most of the "pet" section of animals will do that.

      Wild seagulls will avoid other less palatable forms of food if they know humans have more palatable food... This is why you never feed the seagulls (same with feeding the bears, it invites them back).

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    5. Re:Not surprising by hort_wort · · Score: 1

      The unfortunate thing about pet rats is they just don't live that long.

      *nodnod* I'm hoping the Gambian Pouched Rat will be domesticated more over the years. Their lifespans are ~8 years. APOPO seems to be doing okay with them so far.

      Also, I would mod you up if I could just based on your username.

    6. Re:Not surprising by deadweight · · Score: 1

      My dogs like their food, but they won't touch it until after dinner. They spend all day mooching for human food and only eat the dog food when they know they have got all the human food they are going to get for the day.

    7. Re:Not surprising by shadowrat · · Score: 1

      Also, I would mod you up if I could just based on your username.

      Thanks!

    8. Re:Not surprising by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your rat had "toxoplasmosis."

      You probably did too, for that matter.

    9. Re:Not surprising by Krishnoid · · Score: 1

      Dogs and rats playing together! Gamification run rampant!

    10. Re:Not surprising by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Seegulls will steal the hot dog from your hand,

    11. Re:Not surprising by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My dog turns down food she likes if she thinks there are better alternatives on the table.

    12. Re:Not surprising by antdude · · Score: 1

      What about mice? :P

      --
      Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
    13. Re:Not surprising by shadowrat · · Score: 1

      Mice are nice. They don't seem quite as affectionate and cuddly as a rat. It might be that they are just so small they are hard to really interact with. The biggest issue with mice as a pet is their metabolisms are much faster. That means that stuff that went into the mouse is coming back out on a much shorter timeline. They do have a lot of the benefits of rats though.

    14. Re:Not surprising by phorm · · Score: 1

      For a lot of people the "ick" factor seems to center around the long bald tails of the rat. I'm not really sure why.
      I've had various rats over the years. I generally go for females as the males tend to be rather well endowed, and I didn't really want them running up my arm dragging their business over my skin :-)

  10. I don't know about rats but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...I certainly regret having ever clicked on goatse.cx!

  11. Graveyards full of evidence by Austrian+Anarchy · · Score: 1

    Centuries of mob rats can attest to this. Interesting that it can jump species in this manner.

    --
    Time Bomber the Book coming soon.
  12. Weird by Twelfth+Harmonic · · Score: 1

    I thought politicians were shameless.

    1. Re:Weird by PPH · · Score: 1

      The politicians grabbed all four food dishes. And charged the meals to their re-election fund.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
  13. Corollary by digsbo · · Score: 1

    Corollary: Rats are smarter than people who keep voting for Democrats or Republicans.

    1. Re:Corollary by bondsbw · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I voted independent last election and I agree that it's stupid that we continue to live with this voting system. But I can't blame people for not throwing away their vote.

      You work the system you have. We need to change the system we have.

      --
      All my liberal friends think I'm a conservative, all my conservative friends think I'm a liberal.
    2. Re:Corollary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      > But I can't blame people for not throwing away their vote.

      Voting for one side of the coin IS throwing away their vote. I can see how someone might not realize it, but it is because one of those two parties is going to win and as long as they keep trading votes back and forth there is no incentive to reform. The only time they have incentive to change is when they fear losing votes to something new - a 3rd party. That 3rd party does not even need to win in order to force one of the big two to adopt its principles, it just needs to scare them. The goal should never be to "win" - governance is not a team sport - the goal should be to get the policies you agree with into law no matter the path.

      Always vote your conscience, anything else is throwing away your vote.

    3. Re:Corollary by Trepidity · · Score: 2

      You haven't see what a rat election looks like.

    4. Re:Corollary by Jumunquo · · Score: 1

      That's why I always write-in myself for all positions.

    5. Re:Corollary by digsbo · · Score: 1

      I often do the same. No kidding, a friend of mine won two elections that way.

    6. Re:Corollary by digsbo · · Score: 1

      This is why I refuse to vote for Republicans (broadly), even though they think I should vote for them. I'm perfectly happy to help clean house in the GOP by convincing fiscal conservatives to stop supporting the GOP until they roll over and live up to their promises of small government (which for me includes noninterventionist foreign policy, staying out of the bedroom, getting out of the "war on drugs", etc.).

      I'm certainly not going to convince leftists of the need for economic freedom, but if I can help make fiscal conservatives who are trying to enforce religious right social values get out of the evangelism through politics business, I'll fight that fight.

  14. Analysis paralysis by tepples · · Score: 1

    There's a concept called analysis paralysis. With too many choices, one is likely to be unable to arrive a decision for fear of making one that he will regret. Experiments show that people buy less when more is available. I think this so-called paradox of choice explains part of why certain computing platforms, such as iOS and game consoles, thrive despite their restrictions or even because of them.

    Besides, Jews and Christians have ample evidence in their scriptures that humans suck at decision making. Start with Jeremiah 10:23.

  15. Scientists regret wasting money on irrelevant stud by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Interesting

    Yepp...

  16. I regret making the wrong decision by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Funny

    It seemed like a good idea at the time but cutting off my penis was, in hindsight, the wrong decision.

  17. I don't know about rats but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Me? I don't regret it one bit. Opened up (no pun intended!) a whole new world of possibilities when I joined the stretch scene. It's how I met my wife of 5 years. Gorgeous, smart, sexy, and a linux geek! I just wish her pussy wasn't so loose.

  18. Rats Regret Making the Wrong Decision? by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 0

    I know them very well.

    If they want to salve their consciences, all they have to do is pay up.

  19. Did they groom themselves while waiting? by penguinoid · · Score: 1

    When the rats ran off after wolfing down their disappointing meal to wait for their next meal, did they simply groom themselves while waiting for then next one instead of immediately before leaving? That just seems like they're being hungry or efficient, not regretful.

    --
    Don't waste your vote! Vote for whoever you want, unless you live in a swing state it won't matter anyways
  20. News for nerds? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Other than HGttG reference (and these were rats, so that's a dubious connection), I'm not sure how these animal experiment news belong here. There's been quite a lot of them lately, I think.

  21. Planescape Torment by BurningTyger · · Score: 2

    What can change the nature of a rat ?

    Now we know scientifically it's regret (and not "Many-as-One")

  22. Well, better than all the women I know by goose-incarnated · · Score: 2

    None of them are able to express regret at a bad decision ;-)

    --
    I'm a minority race. Save your vitriol for white people.
    1. Re:Well, better than all the women I know by MadKeithV · · Score: 2

      None of them are able to express regret at a bad decision ;-)

      Fool. Women don't make bad decisions - it's just that reality reacts badly.

  23. article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I need to spend $32 to purchase the full text and PDF of the article?

    Behavioral and neurophysiological correlates of regret in rat decision-making on a neuroeconomic task - Nature Neuroscience by Adam P Steiner
    & A David Redish

    Received March: 03, 2014
    Accepted May: 14, 2014
    Published online: June 08, 2014

  24. Re: True, but politically incorrect by Teranolist · · Score: 0

    You had to write only one word, you even had the meme to tell you how to write it... still fucked it up

  25. Study: Scientists play with rat's emotions by ThatAblaze · · Score: 3, Funny

    They have created a maze that inevitably leads to rats regretting their decisions, no matter what logic they use to make them. Do you know what this means? We've given rats a taste of politics!

    1. Re:Study: Scientists play with rat's emotions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For humanssuch a maze is called "marriage". PA-CHING!!

      Just kidding of course. Happily married. My parents were not though.

  26. Picture my reaction: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I wolved down those sentences and immediately took off to the next article.

  27. Misleading Headline by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I thought it was about Dice and Beta.

  28. Very comforting by cute_orc · · Score: 1

    It is really comforting that someone is out there to share my guilt.

  29. When will they test politicians? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'd expectt to see confirmation that either

    A) Politicians get off on making the wrong choices.
    or
    B) Politicians have no method to discern from right and wrong.

  30. Caught one of these and felt bad . . . . by Joey+Vegetables · · Score: 1

    I feel really bad when I trap a mouse or a rat, which I had to do a couple days ago. I prefer nonlethal traps when they work, but sometimes they don't, and on Saturday I managed to trap one in a way that badly hurt but didn't kill it. I felt really bad. I understand that they are intelligent and sentient creatures. They don't belong in our food, and the diseases they carry don't belong in our home, so I do have to deal with them from time to time. But I so much wish that non-lethal traps actually worked, that I could just catch and release them in nearby woods. Alas, most of the time, that doesn't happen. :(

    1. Re:Caught one of these and felt bad . . . . by HagbardMytrCeline · · Score: 1

      If you want to catch them without hurting them traps are a bad idea. I have found using a small blanket to catch them manually to be the safest and most humane way of doing it.

  31. They Do In New Jersey by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Rat Bastards

  32. Regret? by philmarcracken · · Score: 1

    Something something that tasty looking cheese.

  33. In related news . . . by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In related news, most Obama voters regret making the wrong decision as well.

    1. Re:In related news . . . by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In related news, most Obama voters regret making the wrong decision as well.

      In an alternate reality, Romney+Palin voters regretted it more.

  34. Butthead by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Huhhuhuhhhuhhuhu. You said "PNAS"

  35. Wow. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    You meant Obama obviously.

  36. ratomorphism tells us little about human behaviour by ToddInSF · · Score: 1

    Humans do not react to thwarted interest similarly.