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Australian Government Seeks To Boost Spy Agencies' Powers

Posted by samzenpus on from the help-us-to-help-you dept.

angry tapir writes The Australian government has indicated it intends to seek a boost to the powers of Australia's spy agencies, particularly ASIO (the Australian Security Intelligence Organization). The attorney-general told the Senate today that the government would introduce legislation based on recommendations of a parliamentary committee that last year canvassed "reforms" including boosting ASIO's power to penetrate third party computer systems to intercept communications to and from a target. That report also covered other issues such as the possibility of introducing a mandatory data retention scheme for ISPs and telcos.

54 comments

  1. We must not allow a spy gap! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Funny

    *sigh*

    1. Re:We must not allow a spy gap! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Obviously. Otherwise they might sap and impurify our precious bodily fluids!

    2. Re:We must not allow a spy gap! by davester666 · · Score: 1

      spy gap...hah...we need to be the leaders in spying...it's like copyright, one side "harmonizes" copyright law with another country by passing new copyright laws that are just a bit more strict than the other country, then the other country "harmonizes" copyright law with the first, but only a little more strict, lather, rinse, repeat..

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
    3. Re:We must not allow a spy gap! by Travis+Mansbridge · · Score: 1

      "We" are still the leaders in spying, considering we (if you're referring to the US) are one of the members of the ECHELON group, a.k.a. the "five eyes" or AUSCANNZUKUS (for the five members: Australia, Canada, New Zealand, the UK and the US). As long as each member is permitted to spy on "foreign" countries, they are free to exchange data gathered on citizens of them all. If the NSA gets quashed, ASIO, GCHQ and the rest of them can just pick up the slack.

  2. Fermi paradox by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    And another explanation for the Fermi paradox.. If technology itself will not kill us (or we wit our technology), governments around the world will get such control freaks that they in effect sabotage the civilization itself.

    We seen examples of that in the past, when governments get too power hungry - take the ancient Romans as example - society will collapse.

    One of the real issues is the broken justification - war against terror is a sophism. If you verify the amount of casualties in western countries, you will see that per saved life, the effort done and money wasted is totally disproportional. If we are after saving lives, we would make roads safer, obliged car checkups free, public healthcare for free, and a few more other things a civilized society would or could do, wasting less money and with higher efforts.

    The truth is that we allow a elite to grab more and more power, powers where even medieval rulers only could have dreamed of. And we all know that it we continue this path, the system will collapse. Just power hungry people don't care that - they are not after saving civilians or society - they are after saving themselves.

    Soon, we will live in a society that's resembling the society as seen in the (cult) movie Brazil. Any technological progress will cease. Either some revolution happens - with all risks, either we are heading towards new dark ages.

    I apologize for using the Fermi paradox to get your attention, but a bit of nerd will hopefully see the bigger view. Our question as society is not: where are we now. But more, where do we want to be in 50 or 100 years. And since politicians don't come up with the (right) answers, others must, if we want to survive on this nice planet.

    1. Re:Fermi paradox by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is a good explanation for the Fermi Paradox and probably one that is often neglected due to the high percentage of scientists who are feeding at the government trough. It makes it difficult to be objective when they are the ones who are buttering your bread.

    2. Re:Fermi paradox by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Wait now. Civilization and society can be seen at a meta level as things that are also alive. They are trying to evolve. They may do so at the expense of the individual. Take the current privacy debate. Either way you come down on that debate, it is clear that less privacy can be made to benefit society as a whole (prevent / curtail dangerous actions, etc.) while harming individuals. (The debate mostly centers on how much of each of those happens and where to set the privacy dials and knobs). But it is clear that less privacy benefits that entity called "society" (remember to see it as a whole or at least like a borg collective). So society won't collapse from additional spying. It won't collapse from additional government powers. It will grow stronger. Unfortunately that will be to the detriment of the drones who live in that society. But society the meta-organism? It will be fine. Looking at it from a people perspective it would be called dystopian though.

    3. Re:Fermi paradox by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... when governments get too power hungry ...

      The Roman empire may have grown larger than a centralized government of the day could handle. Somehow, political families became so powerful that government changed from an oligarchy to a kleptocracy. Short answer: It was unbridled corruption causing government institutions (senate, judiciary, military) to fail that resulted in the collapse of Rome.

      It is difficult to find a concrete example of oppression causing internal collapse. One must presume that as a country loses economic and technological advantage, the people emigrate to more prosperous lands. Instead of collapse it is simply absorbed by a neighbouring country. One of the few exceptions was communist Russia which peacefully converted to Capitalism.

      What traditionally did destroy a country was the failure to successfully manage national affairs: We see this with the French royalty, Russian royalty, several rican nations and indirectly, the American colonies. Even Victorian England teetered towards collapse as the Golden age ended.

    4. Re: Fermi paradox by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Rome collapses every generation for a new reason. I don't mean that Rome, the city, was trapped in some Groundhog Day scenario, but that it's a common rhetorical example of "failure" that each generation wants to attribute to a cause that reflects concerns contemporary with the historians, not the historical city. Everyone wants to find historical parallels to modern problem, and when they go looking for them in Rome they always find one somewhere, and that becomes Why Rome Fell for that generation. This generation has questions about the centralization of power in the state, so Rome must've fallen (at least this Groundhog Day) because of corruption. No mention of the plagues that wiped out a huge chunk of the population and disturbed the economy and defensive capabilities, no word about barbarians (immigration!), no clue about the split of power in the tetrarchy (and God knows that Byzantium, which lasted for many centuries after Rome "fell," took corruption to whole new levels) and the prevalance of local, municipal government throughout the Doman period or the late antique transfer of formerly state functions to local church officials: no, there was One Cause of the Fall of Rome, and it was centralization of government and corruption. Because that's what's on people's minds today.

      Hint: when Germans were discovering Nationalism, they said that Rome fell to massive migrations by the German Volk in the face of indecisive and insufficient leadership (i.e. everything that a Kaiser or Fuehrer should not be). I've seen Christians claim that Rome fell due to abortion and divorce and immorality, and greenies protest that it fell due to climate change. Now, whenever someone says "Rome fell because," I just cringe and try to leave as soon as possible, because I know that their reasons are simply a reflection of their own social and political concerns.

    5. Re:Fermi paradox by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How can drones innovate and herald new paradigm shifts? Your logic compute does not.

      A human body is larger than its number of cells, but also dependent on the quality of each cell.
      Society is larger than its number of people, but also dependent on the quality of each person.

    6. Re: Fermi paradox by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem is every other generation (check it yourself) in ANY civilization, & it's human nature. E.G. One generation goes through a depression and war, & lives like shit. They know what that's like and the pitfalls + corruption that causes it. So, they end up making a BETTER WORLD (for their generation, and hopefully, for successive ones, i.e. their kids).

      Sadly enough - The problem is RIGHT THERE in the latter part.

      How/Why?

      Simple - they *try* so hard, TOO hard, to give that kid a better life than they had... too much so, spoiling them.

      This, in turn, leads those kids into not so much a sense of "entitlement", but of WANTING MORE (even more than they were given)...

      So - how to do that in a system of LIMITED FINITE RESOURCES?

      Sociopaths do it all the time (& often rise to leadership positions, simply since they lack morality + conscience & empathy, & "the ends justify the means" for their SELFISH natures) - lie, cheat, & steal (at the expense of everyone else). Face it - everything, & I mean everything, flows top-down, & starts at home in this life/world. Look no farther than that.

      It's that simple: Think about it, & look @ trends in history (it's my backer, past the 'great depression' of the 30's into the one we're enduring now, & yes it IS one no questions asked... all the way back into the one BEFORE it when Andrew Jackson had to "kill the bank" & Lincoln did the same with the greenback... money is the key - he who controls it, controls the world. Look @ the words of Rothchild "I care not who makes the laws in a nation if I control its money supply...").

    7. Re:Fermi paradox by jeIlomizer · · Score: 1

      One of the real issues is the broken justification - war against terror is a sophism. If you verify the amount of casualties in western countries, you will see that per saved life, the effort done and money wasted is totally disproportional. If we are after saving lives, we would make roads safer, obliged car checkups free, public healthcare for free, and a few more other things a civilized society would or could do, wasting less money and with higher efforts.

      The 'justification' would be broken even if their actions did save many lives. Freedom is simply more important than safety.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
  3. Watch out, communists by DpEpsilon · · Score: 2

    The ASIO is a wonderful organisation which has always put the democratic values of Australia first and never wasted any of its resources.

    1. Re:Watch out, communists by oobayly · · Score: 1

      But, but but, they were communist sympathisers - that should have been reason enough.

    2. Re:Watch out, communists by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The more governments spy on general citizens, the higher the praise of the public for these governments and their spy agencies will be, since nobody will be able to afford to be critical of anything they do. At the hight of the communist system in Russia, everybody voted communist. They had no choice. That is the problem with a fascist system.

    3. Re:Watch out, communists by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's why the people of Iraq didn't like the US invasion at first, they feared Saddam too much to give it praise.

    4. Re:Watch out, communists by rtb61 · · Score: 1

      The intent of the right wingers is pretty bloody obvious, They want to pull the teeth of Australian courts who routinely kick ASIOs arse for misbehaving. Everything to do with security risks but not in the way they claim, the security is right wing governments attempting to implement autocratic control. One wonders what ASIO has actually been able to do other than burn up hundreds of millions of dollar, demonstrate a palpable right wing political bias and be the obedient puppets of the CIA and SIS/MI6. The current Luddite Exploiters (let's not call them Liberal Conservatives as it is a lie not to mention being an oxymoron, rather an apt word for the current Australian government, well, at least part of it) government is just proving to be worse and worse and worse by the day.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    5. Re:Watch out, communists by mjwx · · Score: 1

      The ASIO is a wonderful organisation which has always put the democratic values of Australia first and never wasted any of its resources.

      To explain the situation to our non Australian friends,

      This is being proposed by the Atourney General of the ACT (Australian Capital Territory) George Brandis who is pretty much a complete and utter moron and in the pocket of the PM, Tony Abbott (who's went pretty far to the right and kept going).

      Brandis first rose to fame in the 2013 election where he pardoned Tony Abbott's cheif of staff for a drink driving charge (for our American compatriots, this is a serious offence in Australia). Peta Credlin blew 0.075 (0.05 is the limit) which carries an automatic loss of license in the ACT. Claiming Credlin's "exemplary" character permitted her to walk scott free.

      After the election, Brandis has been trying to change the Racial Discrimination Act to allow people to be biggots, this is primarily to help right wing shock jock Andrew Bolt to be a racist arsehole on television and not get sued for it.

      He has also been on an anti-piracy campaign ever since Tony Abbott was elected.

      tl;dr
      George Brandis is a complete joke.

      The Abbott government faces a hostile senate and is already extremely unpopular with voters (not even Murdoch can spin how unpopular they are). I highly doubt anything Brandis proposes will get through as the extreme right leadership of the Liberal party (yep, in Australia our conservatives are called the "Liberals") is facing a revolt from the moderates, with the narrowest of margins in the house of representatives and no majority in the senate, things like this wont happen.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
  4. Slashdot MotD for this story by CeasedCaring · · Score: 0

    "Love your country but never trust its government." -- from a hand-painted road sign in central Pennsylvania

    1. Re:Slashdot MotD for this story by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I hope Australia never takes advice from America on government, democracy or privacy.

      I don't think I could handle and Australian NRA...

  5. meh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Most security around the world is handled by Israeli companies, they want increased powers for blackmail and insider trading.

  6. WTF Australia need spy agency for?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I don't remember any war where Australia was a side. They don't have aggressive (or any other) neighbours and don't seek world domination. So, where this urge to burn money coming from?

    1. Re: WTF Australia need spy agency for?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Look up WWII. You may have heard of it. Also look up Asia. Australia is a chose ally of the US and has US troops stationed in it. Much of Asia is not sympathetic to this position (exactly why the troops are there).

    2. Re:WTF Australia need spy agency for?! by benjfowler · · Score: 1

      They do have an aggressive colonial minority which inhabit south western Sydney, which you could say, is at war with Australia.

    3. Re:WTF Australia need spy agency for?! by rossdee · · Score: 1

      "I don't remember any war where Australia was a side."

      World War I , World War II, Korea, Vietnam, Desert Storm, Afghanistan, Iraq

      There was also a place in asia called East Timor which was at war with Indonesia. Aussie and NZ forces went there as peacekeepers...

    4. Re:WTF Australia need spy agency for?! by fuzznutz · · Score: 0

      So, where this urge to burn money coming from?

      Australia, as everyone knows, and Australia is entirely peopled with criminals, and criminals are used to having people not trust them, as you are not trusted by me, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you.

    5. Re:WTF Australia need spy agency for?! by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Ignore the hate radio bullshit, it seems a few of the more out of touch types from the north shore of Sydney now embedded in Canberra are the ones trying to demolish what Australia has become. Cut back on training and import skilled workers instead, bringing back British titles, the list is long of radical changes they are forcing on the country - yet they call themselves "conservative".

  7. well its about time... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    seeing how the entire continent was stolen from aborigines by convicts and all.

    1. Re:well its about time... by Chrisq · · Score: 2, Funny

      seeing how the entire continent was stolen from aborigines by convicts and all.

      Good point - such a bunch of criminals certainly need tough surveilance

  8. they want this for more commercial spying by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    The australian government is corrupt to the core and has been busted spying on companies for its big political donors. They have been spying on their own citizens too without probable cause. People have no bills of rights. The police are corrupt. The spy agencies are corrupt. The police who watch the spy agencies are corrupt. The whole country is one big shitbag of corruption.

    http://www.thesaturdaypaper.com.au/world/2014/03/08/the-hague-rules-timor-leste-material-seized-asio-raids/1394197200
    http://dissidentvoice.org/2013/11/how-australia-is-spying-on-its-own-2/
    https://www.efa.org.au/2013/06/19/online-surveillance-govt-hiding/
    http://www.crikey.com.au/2014/02/17/tony-abbotts-highly-revealing-lie-about-why-we-spy
    http://www.independentaustralia.net/politics/politics-display/the-surveillance-state-how-australia-is-spying-on-its-own,5907
    http://kangaroocourtofaustralia.com/2011/10/09/the-canberra-mafia-how-and-why-the-australian-federal-government-conceal-corruption/

    1. Re:they want this for more commercial spying by buckfeta2014 · · Score: 2

      I guess Australia is the true origin of Kangaroo Court.

      --
      Buck Feta. You know what to do.
  9. Excellent idea by GeekWithAKnife · · Score: 2


    Let's face it, they are probably already doing most of what they propose to legislate, might as well make it official.

    I guess it's still better than secret courts that approve actions that no one can oppose because that too is a secret.

    It works really well for the US, why not for our good friends down under?

    --
    A 'singular oddity' is an event that cannot be explained and only happens when you are alone.
  10. Mandatory data retention... by Electricity+Likes+Me · · Score: 2

    What is with this policy? We've killed it - repeatedly and it just won't stay dead.

    I mean we know they're doing intercepts of some sort anyway, and we know they retain probably quite a bit, but the big benefit at the moment is none of this can be used in court.

    And for the types of things it's worth stopping, you don't need to use it since if you grab some terrorists with a couple kilograms of fertilizer and diesel in a truck, then you've got all your evidence.

    What seems way more likely to me is that this is being pushed hard by the copyright lobby, who, once they can legally obtain the data, will want to use it to go after people.

    1. Re:Mandatory data retention... by dbIII · · Score: 1

      What is with this policy? We've killed it - repeatedly and it just won't stay dead.

      ASIO like it and whenever a new government looks weak and easily influenced they roll it out again to give it another try.

    2. Re:Mandatory data retention... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      a couple kilograms of fertilizer and diesel

      What the fuck are you smoking? Have you ever been NEAR a farm? I don't think your conception of scale is sane. Let's tell all the farmers that they're limited to 2kg or 4.4 lbs of fertilizer and they're not allowed to use their tractors because they run on diesel.

    3. Re:Mandatory data retention... by mjwx · · Score: 1

      What is with this policy? We've killed it - repeatedly and it just won't stay dead.

      What seems way more likely to me is that this is being pushed hard by the copyright lobby, who, once they can legally obtain the data, will want to use it to go after people.

      It's being proposed by George Brandis, the same guy who said it's OK to be a biggot and let Tony Abbott's chief of staff walk from a drink driving conviction.

      It'll never pass (hostile senate and possible revolt from moderate back benchers).

      But you're right. It's being pushed by the media conglomerates to get ISP's to spy on their own customers and then turn that data over to them so they can sue. Brandis is pretty much in the pockets of big media anyway (well I hope he is, if he's ruining his reputation for free he's a bigger idiot that I thought).

      I dont think Brandis will survive as AG for Australia for very much longer. Tony Abbott is a sock puppet for the Liberal powerbrokers, but they've got to realise that Brandis is doing a lot of harm.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
  11. cue from the USA by Cardoor · · Score: 2

    theyre just taking their cue from the us. every bully needs a lapdog.

  12. Yes, our current government are arseholes by tdelaney · · Score: 1

    Our current government are arseholes. Yes, I am saying the other mob is better. Not much better perhaps, but better than this bunch of complete dicks.

    Don't get me started on what they've done to our National Broadband Network.

    No, I didn't vote for them.

    1. Re:Yes, our current government are arseholes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I am always fascinated by people that think there's a big difference between Labor and Liberal any more.

      Both are trying so hard to steal votes from each other's core membership that it's become obscene.

    2. Re:Yes, our current government are arseholes by dbIII · · Score: 1

      I'll get started. There appears to be a policy of demolishing anything that could be seen as a legacy of the previous government so that when the elections next come up there is nothing left that reminds voters that anything positive was done by them. While that's bad enough on it's own there are some long running things that date back longer that have been removed as well just in case the other party can get some political milage out of it.

      The Broadband Network is now in the hands of an utter loser called Ziggy who is very well connected politically, thus went from running a science lab with about 200 people to running a government owned telecommunications company with enough people to have more than 64k desktop computers (they tried to get all of them on one pre-AD microsoft domain and ran out of numbers), back to the lab for a decade then wheeled out again to run the NBN. No other management experience. It's like putting a hot dog stand guy in as CEO in McDonalds and the NBN is really only necessary because of the way Ziggy and the bandit that followed him fucked up Telstra so badly that parallel communications infrastructure is now necessary. I live less than 5km from the middle of a State Capital and my phone line has ~1930s lead wrapped in paper in the line - every time it rains a lot my phone line drops out for a few days.
      So why doesn't private enterprise take up the slack? Very well crafted barriers with threats of jail time for stepping on Telstra's toes. The "right of way" was sold with Telstra.

    3. Re:Yes, our current government are arseholes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      its like in futurama where you have john jackson and jack johnson debating whether the titanium tax should be slightly higher or stay where it is. Its all a big circus to keep us entertained while researchers tell the office what they can get away with. Democracy is the illusion of control.

  13. So by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why do people still inhabit that continent, again?

    1. Re:So by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Lifestyle, weather, space, freedom, high standard of living.

  14. I find Asio very useful by naris · · Score: 1

    For handling network and serial communications.

  15. Re:Additionally, ask yourself THIS question... apk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://slashdot.org/comments.p...

  16. Re:You should see the "Outer Limits" episode by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://slashdot.org/comments.p...

  17. Since 1984 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    White door, ninth floor, silent number, it's autumn on a cold avenue
    Telex intercept, he sips a cigarette, warms up his V.D.U.

    He gets his kicks from microchips, orders from the C.I.A.
    Birobugs and lasers, casual surveillance, boardrooms and communiques

    Don't use your phone and don't use mine
    Don't speak treason, they're tapping the li-ine

    Break-in, stake out, tell it in code
    Everything is legal, anything goes
    The nights gettin' darker and the ill wind blows
    Your life's in a databank at ASIO

  18. You *do* know why Aussies call each other "Mate" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You *do* know why Aussies always call each other "Mate" don't you?
    From the days when Australia was a penal colony full of convicts,
    "Mate" is an abbreviation for "Inmate". :-D

  19. no freedom here. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We don't have freedom. We are the nanny country, and it can't change any time soon because the public have had common sense breed out of us. Which is why we can't have an autobahn, because too many idiots would kill them selves by trying to reach the speed limit. I'm not allowed certain types of paintball guns, because apparently they look too much like a real gun, even though i need a gun licence to get one, and can only legally use it at a paintball field (if you think that is bad the real gun laws are even worse). We were only recently allowed to have r18+ video games. No bill of rights, or freedom of speech. Police can ask you to move from a public space for zero reason, and they don't need a warrant to enter people’s property (apparently they get one after if they find something). Sure we get a vote, but we don't get to vote on propositions, and political parties do whatever they want once they are in.

  20. Mandatory data retention... by AHuxley · · Score: 1

    ASIO notices you and wants to know more about you. A cleared official or bureaucrat authorizes a "sneak and peek" like digital finding, tasking your home computer for a look.
    The new legal idea is to place ASIO spyware into your Windows, Apple (other OS?) computer and then see if you need more attention without complex extra court requests.
    Logs and malware product is then reviewed. The malware would be made to look and feel like any other infected bot computer in Australia - another suburban adsl 2+ "home" computer running malware on your computer. If the ip is ever traced back by the private internet security sector they will find an empty/under renovation/to be rented house with a computer 'networked' on the floor with simple 24/7 database.

    --
    Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
  21. Since 1984 by AHuxley · · Score: 1

    Re Asio lyrics by Redgum :)
    a U.N. flag, now he's trading in securities, Do it for the practice, do it for the fun, Everything is legal, anything goes

    --
    Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"